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Chris Li
01-26-2014, 10:34 AM
New blog post! "Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/sagawa-yukiyoshi-masaru-takahashi-breath-training-daito-ryu-dutch-version/)" the Dutch version of “Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi and Breath Training in Daito-ryu (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/sagawa-yukiyoshi-masaru-takahashi-breath-training-daito-ryu/)“, courtesy of Ernesto Lemke (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Aikido-Leeuwarden/237561086285202).

Enjoy!

Chris

Chris Li
01-29-2014, 08:44 PM
An interesting side note to the breath training mentioned here - as far back as 2008 Dan Harden insisted that there were breathing exercises in the Sagawa line (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=199804&postcount=61) (there are earlier examples, I know, but this is the one that came up first in search), in opposition to no small amount of sceptacism.

And when this article appears in current times - there is hardly a ripple of controversy. It's interesting to see how much things have changed. :D

Best,

Chris

Cliff Judge
01-30-2014, 07:14 AM
An interesting side note to the breath training mentioned here - as far back as 2008 Dan Harden insisted that there were breathing exercises in the Sagawa line (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=199804&postcount=61) (there are earlier examples, I know, but this is the one that came up first in search), in opposition to no small amount of sceptacism.

And when this article appears in current times - there is hardly a ripple of controversy. It's interesting to see how much things have changed. :D

Best,

Chris

Well it makes perfect sense that Sagawa's Daito ryu had breath training in it. He certainly brought in a lot of other stuff from Jikishinkage ryu.

Cliff Judge
01-30-2014, 09:24 AM
Well it makes perfect sense that Sagawa's Daito ryu had breath training in it. He certainly brought in a lot of other stuff from Jikishinkage ryu.

I meant Sagawa, by the way.

Chris Li
01-30-2014, 09:29 AM
I meant Sagawa, by the way.

Well, Takeda certainly had Jikishinkage influence - although I note that the article talks about Kogen Itto-ryu.

Best,

Chris

Cliff Judge
01-30-2014, 09:51 AM
Well, Takeda certainly had Jikishinkage influence - although I note that the article talks about Kogen Itto-ryu.

Best,

Chris

Hmmm. "Ya", "To", and "Ei" are fairly common kiai shapes...I wonder what the distinctions in Kogen Itto ryu are.

Re-reading this article today, I see some commentary I did not notice before on the idea that there is no vocalization in Daito ryu. Mainline Daito ryu certainly has that today, you can plainly see/hear it on any of the Kondo Sensei videos, and I think I saw a video of a Takumakai embu recently where they use "To!" when executing the finishing blow.

Chris Li
01-30-2014, 10:14 AM
Hmmm. "Ya", "To", and "Ei" are fairly common kiai shapes...I wonder what the distinctions in Kogen Itto ryu are.

Re-reading this article today, I see some commentary I did not notice before on the idea that there is no vocalization in Daito ryu. Mainline Daito ryu certainly has that today, you can plainly see/hear it on any of the Kondo Sensei videos, and I think I saw a video of a Takumakai embu recently where they use "To!" when executing the finishing blow.

When I Was training with Kondo there was some basic vocalization at the end of things, but nothing very sophisticated or pervasive.

Best,

Chris

Budd
01-30-2014, 11:00 AM
Some of those stances and thoughts on breath are what make me question from the DR and other arts' lines what they consider breath power versus what would be considered breath power from a more traditional 6 harmonies perspective. I'm not convinced they're the same thing, but as was already mentioned, getting good info around what's being done is problematic at best.

Cliff Judge
01-30-2014, 11:16 AM
Some of those stances and thoughts on breath are what make me question from the DR and other arts' lines what they consider breath power versus what would be considered breath power from a more traditional 6 harmonies perspective. I'm not convinced they're the same thing, but as was already mentioned, getting good info around what's being done is problematic at best.

Budd, could you share more about what a "more traditional 6 harmonies" perspective is?

The concept of breath power I've seen in mainline Daito ryu is similar to what I have seen in Jikishinkage ryu - and I don't think it would fit the "internal" frame at all. It's pretty much about packing in a lot of power and then releasing it in some way that breaks your opponent. It could be that both systems reserve different kinds of breath training for higher levels, of course.

Chris Li
01-30-2014, 11:27 AM
The concept of breath power I've seen in mainline Daito ryu is similar to what I have seen in Jikishinkage ryu - and I don't think it would fit the "internal" frame at all. It's pretty much about packing in a lot of power and then releasing it in some way that breaks your opponent. It could be that both systems reserve different kinds of breath training for higher levels, of course.

Yes, that's pretty much what I saw in Shin-Koiwa with Kondo. Of course, there may well be things he does that I didn't see. OTOH, there are definitely 6H related methods from other traditional Daito-ryu lines.

Best,

Chris

Budd
01-30-2014, 12:03 PM
Well and there's the rub, packing in power to release with the breath is in most martial arts in some form - the devil is in the details of how it's done.

Cliff Judge
01-30-2014, 12:54 PM
Yes, that's pretty much what I saw in Shin-Koiwa with Kondo. Of course, there may well be things he does that I didn't see. OTOH, there are definitely 6H related methods from other traditional Daito-ryu lines.

Best,

Chris

But we seem to be counting Sagawa-den out along with Tokimune's line? So that leaves....?

Chris Li
01-30-2014, 01:03 PM
But we seem to be counting Sagawa-den out along with Tokimune's line? So that leaves....?

I haven't counted either Sagawa or Tokimune out - I'm just saying what I saw at Kondo's dojo.

Best,

Chris