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Abdul Rashid
01-24-2014, 12:53 AM
Hello guys . I am new member here . However i have been reading forums here for the past few years . A little introduction about myself . I started training in aikido in 2012 after watching some seagal movies . Ever since then , i got hooked onto training and just loved it . But after a while , i started to realise that what i was being taught was just impractical . We would often have some scuffles and fights in schools and i got beaten almost everytime . I can't tell you the number of times i have thought of qutting aikido .

Anyway , something big happened last year where i got into a big fight ! I managed to control this huge guy with a sankyo . I realised that placing a lock on someone who is trying to beat that crap out of you is different from the dojo . Also , a lock can be countered . I brought this up to my teacher and could not get a proper answer.

One of my concerns right now is whether my training would work for me in a fight . If it does not , i shall try to find ways to make it work . I cannot seem to find people teaching aikido in a practical way . Everyone now seems to be doing the same old , shomen uchi , yokomen uchi etc . I understand that is the traditional stuff . But don't we need to evolve at the same time ?

Another one of my concerns is that people telling me aikido cannot be used in a fight as it is " really dangerous , deadly " or either " it is the art of peace " . I have sparred sometimes and found techniques that work against a resisting attacker .

It seems now that people are practicing aikido only as an art . Looks like anybody from other arts can simply mop the floor even with an aikido black belt . I don't see any aikidoka now trained to fight . Most of them seem fat , skinny , overweight going along with " Oh , you don't need strength in aikido " excuse .

Looks like the downfall of aikido in the future . I am simply stating my opinions . I wish to be good at aikido in the dojo and be practical and realistic at the same time . I am not training in aikido to beat up people.

JoelLM
01-24-2014, 01:32 AM
I can not give you an answer from the perspective of an Aikidoka, but I can give you a little insight from someone who is pursuing aikido and who has a good deal of experience in Boxing and a few Brawls. Any system or art you practice needs to be practice under the conditions that you intend to apply them in. For this reason a lot of people prefer or seem to find more value from sport derived martial arts becuase they are pressure tested, this however dose not mean that they will work any better then Aikido. I will however state that a system that has been pressure tested stands a better chance in a real life situation then one that is not.( this is my own opinion and a great deal of people may disagree).

That being said, the more exposure you have to different martial arts the better understanding you will gain of aikido and any other Martial art that you practice. I personally plan on pressure testing my aikido once im at a level I can do it safely. Its also my belief that aikido works better in accordance with an other system if its to be used as self deffence. There is no such thing as the perfect martial art and Aikido will offer you a skill set that boxing, judo, or bjj wont.

You will find good and bad practitioners in all martial arts. I once took a Bjj class from an "instructor" who was out of shap, did not participate in the class and continued to reference a book during class. I never went back.

ryback
01-24-2014, 03:12 AM
Hello Abdul and welcome aboard.
The subject of whether aikido works or not has been discussed here many times and as I have mentioned before, it works fine as a martial art if you practice it as such.
The phrases "aikido can be deadly" or " aikido is the art of peace" cliche and contradictory as they may sound, are both real but you are too young in the world of aikido for these terms to have any meaning. But if you keep on practicing, there will come a time when more things will be unlocked and start making sense.
Now, this been said, don't you think you are getting involved in too many fights and brawls? Aikido takes a lot of time, so you are in fact a beginner. Aikido is not a combat sport it is a self defense martial art and the only way to be sure that you won't be hurt in any fighting situation is to not be there in the first place. Aikido techniques, in my experience, work fine but you are too inexperienced to make them work and to realize that school fights or brawls are not the best way to test yourself, but things to be avoided.
Keep practicing at the dojo, let aikido become your nature and you will start unlocking its martial secrets. All you need is patience and practicing time in the right direction...

dps
01-24-2014, 06:16 AM
It is not necessarily the techniques of Aikido that work in a fight but the principles that you learn practicing the techniques. Basically you learn how to keep your balance and recognize or disrupt your opponent's balance. Once your opponent's balance is gone and you maintain yours then you have control and can do anything including Aikido techniques.

dps

lbb
01-24-2014, 07:54 AM
One of my concerns right now is whether my training would work for me in a fight . If it does not , i shall try to find ways to make it work . I cannot seem to find people teaching aikido in a practical way . Everyone now seems to be doing the same old , shomen uchi , yokomen uchi etc . I understand that is the traditional stuff . But don't we need to evolve at the same time ?

Sure, I guess. But evolve for what? You say you wonder if your training would work "in a fight". How many fights do you get into, and why? What are you fighting for? What is your opponent fighting for? Do they want to muss your hair, or steal your wallet, or beat you into a bloody pulp for insulting their sister? What skills and weapons are they armed with, and what are they trying to with them? And where are the cops in all this?

Asking if your aikido will work "in a fight" is like asking if a vehicle will work "for a trip". A trip to where, the corner store? The Hebrides? There's no point in questioning the usefulness of aikido if you can't say what you want to use it for.

Brian Gillaspie
01-24-2014, 08:21 AM
Anyway , something big happened last year where i got into a big fight ! I managed to control this huge guy with a sankyo . I realised that placing a lock on someone who is trying to beat that crap out of you is different from the dojo . Also , a lock can be countered . I brought this up to my teacher and could not get a proper answer..

You said you were able to control a huge guy with sankyo. It sounds like aikido worked for you.

GMaroda
01-25-2014, 06:44 AM
You said you were able to control a huge guy with sankyo. It sounds like aikido worked for you.

Yeah, I'm confused. He used sankyo but he wonders if it works?

And a lock can be countered, yes. A punch can be blocked. A grab can be broken. A kick can be evaded.

sakumeikan
01-27-2014, 08:14 AM
Dear All,
I dont know about all you guys on this forum but I get fed up with guys like Abdul writing about Aikido being an effective art. Abdul says he started in 2012, he would be hard pushed to state that he is an experienced aikidoka. My advice , train for a few more years ,Abdul, get into more scraps then come back and tell our readers how you got on. As other contributors said you handled a guy with sankyo why then ask if aikido 'works'????Cheers, Joe.

ChrisHein
01-27-2014, 02:30 PM
If you want to understand how to "use" Aikido as a martial art, you'll first have to understand what Aikido is teaching martially. That is to say, what is Aikido's context. Not all martial arts have the same context, and if you want to "use" a martial art you'll have to first understand what kinds of problems it's context is addressing.

Second, you'll have to train Aikido in an alive manner. You'll have to find a kind of active resistance training to practice your Aikido techniques within their proper context.

If you want to come to California, we do this at my Dojo. And we have an Uchi Deshi program. If you're interested you can find all you're asking about here in Fresno.

Best of luck, whatever path you choose!

Eric Winters
01-27-2014, 03:25 PM
Hello,

This only my opinion.

Aikido is derived from an older jujitsu (Koryu) therefore the assumptions are a little different. The original art (Daito Ryu) came from a time when people carried weapons. ( katana, wakizashi, tanto). So the empty hand stuff is really about weapons retention because the assumption is you will be carrying a sword or some other weapon. If you look at most Koryu, their curriculum is mostly about how to use your weapons and how to retain them. Koryu has empty hand against empty hand but that is a very small part of the whole art and is not as efficient in dealing with that situation as an art that specializes in empty hand against empty hand. If you want something that is more appropriate to modern times you might want to try MMA and/or Krav Maga otherwise you will have to find ways to apply aikido waza and principles on you own.

Best,

Eric

mathewjgano
01-27-2014, 04:12 PM
I'm not an expert, but for the sake of trying to refine my own thinking on these ideas:
There's a lot of divergence within the Aikido world. There are a lot of different goals and some styles are definitely more martially oriented than others. Some are more art than martial. And then there's the varieties between those two ends of the spectrum...and that's just the schools themselves, never mind the individuals applying whatever they're learning in their own way. You can see how some of whatever version of Aikido you're learning has practical use and some of it doesn't...or is at least less obvious. Different aspects will lend themselves differently based on the context they're being used in.
One of my concerns right now is whether my training would work for me in a fight . If it does not , i shall try to find ways to make it work . I cannot seem to find people teaching aikido in a practical way . Everyone now seems to be doing the same old , shomen uchi , yokomen uchi etc . I understand that is the traditional stuff . But don't we need to evolve at the same time ?
Yes and no. On one hand we're learning how to use the body, which is somewhat timeless; on the other hand, I think it depends on the nature of the school. A lot of schools cross-train, for example. I get the impression Aikido can be viewed as a healthful activity which allows for a variety of purposes...so people of all ages and ability can practice safely together. The personal emphasis of the teachers will of course shape what the students can choose from, but as a general rule, this is how I view Aikido: It's generally less about fighting than it is fostering healthy living.
Another one of my concerns is that people telling me aikido cannot be used in a fight as it is " really dangerous , deadly " or either " it is the art of peace "
I'm sure for some it is a cop-out, but I also think there is a valid point to be made there. Fighting can be dangerous and testing your skill can be less important than being able to keep using your shoulder. I love it when my kohai resist my efforts because I usually feel confident enough to deal with it safely. I am also very happy to tell them, "you beat me," even if I am sure I still could have reclaimed the initiative. For me the risk simply isn't worth it and I'd rather check my ego since it effects me more on a day-to-day basis than whether or not I can toss someone who's trying to pummel me. We all live under different circumstances and that will be reflected in how we respond to different hypotheticals.
I don't see any aikidoka now trained to fight . Most of them seem fat , skinny , overweight going along with " Oh , you don't need strength in aikido " excuse.
Keep looking, they're out there. I suppose there can be a fine line between authentic reasons and cheap excuses.

odudog
01-27-2014, 08:03 PM
Aikido has been stress tested. I'm re-reading my book on Aikido Masters and numerous interviewees state that they survived WWII due to Aikido. Plenty of senseis have stress tested Aikido in the back alleys and bars in bad neighborhoods of Japan (Seagal, Suenaka, Saito, etc.,,).

One guy I know whose art is very similar to Aikido has been kicked out of several MMA dojos in my area. He goes there to get a good work out. He keeps breaking people. He applies an Aikido technique during the match, tells the training partner to stop for he has him, yet the MMA guys doesn't see or truly feel the problem. Not their art so they doesn't understand. They continue to fight throw the situation to their own detriment.

I was watching one episode of Lockup on TV. Saw two correction officers apply a sankyo on one hand and a nikyo on the other simultaneously on an unruly convict. That guy was hoping around and gave up really quick.

Sojourner
01-28-2014, 12:15 AM
The reason why Aikido can be termed "deadly" is simply this, the locks and holds work, yet lets bear in mind that they are not always meant to be used as simple submission holds; yes that works in some situations, yet if someone is attacking you physically you may have no option but to use the technique in full and break someones joints or limbs, that is the final end move of several Aikido techniques... If you think as a novice or even intermediate Aikidoa you can over power and lock someone indefinatley, you are likely going to struggle, more so if its against multiple attackers where you have no choice but to render the first and second ones unconcious or with damaged joints / limbs so they are immobile.

Then what comes next? You will be charged by the police, you will need a lawyer and you may well get a conviction depending on how good the prosecution people are. Aikidoa are in general well aware of what capacity they have to use Aikido to hurt people, yet its our philosophy that we are taught that causes many to simply walk away from conflict situations and the aftermath that comes with it. Aikido can easilly kill, maim or injure, learning how to deal with that is the larger part of the learning that comes with Aikido IMO.

Besides which, if Aikido did not work, why would the Israeli Military teach it within Krav Maga and use it to disarm miltiants and so on, when their own lives depend on it?

earnest aikidoka
01-28-2014, 02:12 AM
Hi rashid. I'm from singapore and believe it or not I have had the same issues as you regarding aikido. I had my share of scraps and experiences and I can say that I kinda understand how you feel about aikido and training in general. Honestly, i will say that aikido is effective, but it can be hard to see.

Where in singapore do you train? I train at shinjukai hq at aljunied 260 sims avenue on sat and sunday afternoons. If you are interested, look me up and lets practice with each other?

JJF
01-28-2014, 09:58 AM
In my opinion we need to stop using words such as 'breaking', 'initiating', 'winning, 'effective', 'control' before Aikido even begin to contain the subtle elements that make it unique. Other Martial Arts will get you 'proficient' faster (in lack of a better word), but without training those other elements any art can only take you so far. At one point or the other you have to put in the effort to learn the intangible qualities. In Aikido (some styles) we choose to do that from the start. Aiming for what in many ways is pretty much the same final destination but with different and maybe fewer stops along the way.

With enough training things will begin to become clearer (I hope).

JJ

RHKarst
01-29-2014, 01:09 AM
As for Aikido's effectiveness . . . I have seen where a few minutes of instruction have saved people from being taken hostage. A simple break away caused a man from an insane ward to run and get someone other than my girlfriend at the time! Yes effective.

I have shown very simple techniques to people that show how easily I take their balance yet it looks like I am keeping them from falling. If they resist, I simply let go. Can I help it if they fall on their head and get a concussion? Effective . . . yes. Dangerous . . . yes.

The point of Aikido is to avoid being hurt yourself. It is most often a very passive art. Some forms teach no hits or kicks. But the throws can be very dangerous. Most originated from killing Samurai that were wearing armor, by breaking their neck!

But do not expect to understand Aikido in even a few short years, let alone be proficient at it. Unlike other arts, it removes all the bad habits like blocking. Instead you learn to simply not be where the attack is coming to. This skill is used in many things. I even used it to impress a young man with a water balloon on the lake. He could not understand how he missed me! Just suddenly I was not there. Understood properly it will affect all your dealings with others in daily life. . . not to fight but to give in and then with slight alterations . . . control. Yes it works. Once you truly understand it.

Dalaran1991
02-18-2014, 06:08 AM
People have all brought up very good points.

There's something else I didn't see mention: atemi. This is what I think is missing in modern aikido except for some very martial styles. O Sensei himself said that atemi is at the heart of the technique. It's just that we rarely see it in practice bc everyone knows its coming so they follow the technique/take the fall to avoid it. Without the implication/possibility of Atemi no aikido technique would really work. Ikkyo starts with atemi. Iriminage ends with a deadly atemi to the neck/face region. Tenchi nage presents atemi to the face or behind the kneecap.

This is a weakness in modern aikido IMHO. I've been to many seminars where even tapping the uke/tori lightly to indicate that the ma ai/waza is bad is considered rude. When some people see an atemi being applied they are like "That's cheating. It's too easy with atemi" Supposedly with a "good" partner we never see an atemi because the technique is so flawlessly execute without any conflict that atemi is not necessary.

The consequence is that very few aikidoka know how to apply an atemi nowadays. Thats why everybody posting here is talking about pairing aikido with another striking art because they teach you what Aikido should also be teaching you: how to apply atemi to vulnerable parts with good timing and proper force. Without atemi I seriously don't think Aikido could be used effectively. It's like firing a rifle without a bullet. You are left with charging in and hit people with the rifle butt. Ineffective and not how a rifle should be used.

jonreading
02-18-2014, 10:17 AM
First, I believe aiki is an effective tool in many martial arts and I believe aikido is a great foundational education in aiki with a great selection of waza that are found in many other arts. It's not like what we do is drastically different from many similar throws or locks you will find in judo, jujutsu or karate.

I think you can be over-invested in the kata of aikido. I think you can be under-committed to your training. And I think you can be isolated in your exposure to a great world of martial arts. Aikido does have people who commit these sins; other arts have similar offenders, too. If your critique is "aikido people do not train enough and they do not condition their bodies enough", then that may be true. But that is a critique of the person, not the art.

Second, kata is a different process than what other arts call randori. Much of our training is kata oriented, not randori. Kata in not bunkai (applied) fighting. If your critique is "aikido people do not practice enough randori," then that may be true. But that is a critique of the dojo curriculum, not the art. My opinion is that good kata will teach you the technique shapes, which you can then execute in a fight.

Your aikido training does not need to stop when class ends. Visit a judo dojo, or karate dojo. Put some gloves on and spar. Hit the gym. Just because you saw someone in aikido who does not reflect your self-image does not mean you cannot work towards realizing your self-image.

Aikido is dangerous. Many arts are dangerous. Walking on a slippery sidewalk is dangerous. We have a rule in class that if nage can use atemi, so can uke. The distillation of aikido kata was designed to focus developing aiki. The reason there is no fighting in aikido is because it is difficult to manifest aiki in a fight. The learning process of aikido is not to win a fight, it's to manifest aiki. There is no rule that you cannot fight in aikido. There are many people to use their aikido in other sports like judo and karate.

Having been on the wrong end of some people who do aiki I will tell you, yes, it is dangerous. Probably moreso than putting on pads and sweating out a good sparring session with some rules and protective gear. But that is what makes sport fighting something that can be practiced regularly. Enjoy what you have in your art and don't worry about that grass that looks greener on the other side of the fence.

mickeygelum
02-19-2014, 08:34 AM
Greetings Mr. Rashid,

If you are relying on Aikido alone, you will fail.

If you are accepting that a single technique or two will end your conflict, you will fail. If you overlook the value of the instinctive survival techniques, honing and incorporating them in to your Aikido training, you will fail.

Crosstraining , in my opinion, is the key to an effective martial toolbox. Punch/Kick, Lock/Pin/Break/Throw and Weapons. Yes, I said weapons, Improvised and Traditional, will help you realize your goal. Seek out the opportunities, discard the ineffective and apply yourself to the ones that are effective.

Ask questions, demand answers and make them demonstrate. Seeking knowledge is good, do not make decisions based solely on open discussions. Go, participate and decide, you are the only one that choses which direction to follow.

Train well...train hard,

Mickey

PeterR
02-19-2014, 11:35 AM
Greetings Mr. Rashid,

If you are relying on Aikido alone, you will fail.

If you are accepting that a single technique or two will end your conflict, you will fail. If you overlook the value of the instinctive survival techniques, honing and incorporating them in to your Aikido training, you will fail.

Crosstraining , in my opinion, is the key to an effective martial toolbox. Punch/Kick, Lock/Pin/Break/Throw and Weapons. Yes, I said weapons, Improvised and Traditional, will help you realize your goal. Seek out the opportunities, discard the ineffective and apply yourself to the ones that are effective.

Ask questions, demand answers and make them demonstrate. Seeking knowledge is good, do not make decisions based solely on open discussions. Go, participate and decide, you are the only one that choses which direction to follow.

Train well...train hard,

Mickey
Just to be obtuse I think that Aikido does contain all you need - it just depends on how you train.

Besides that the rest of the post is spot on - great fan of cross-training, situational training and just being aware of your own limitations and strengths.

jonreading
02-19-2014, 12:12 PM
To be even obtuse-er...

1. We have a generation of shihan who trained under O Sensei with an attitude of "keep what works, get rid of what doesn't." Many of them have since admitted, in writing on occasion, that they wish they would have listened better to what they thought was unimportant at the time. You could argue damage was done to the art when some of the early teaching was discarded or removed from circulation.
2. Specifically to Peter's point, I would agree that aikido contained everything to teach how to use aiki. I think two serious points at issue is if aikido contains (present tense) what we need to learn aiki and also if dojos are soliciting students to participate in the entirety of the training. It does depend on how you train.
3. Aiki is not bunkai. Aikido is gendai budo, not koryu. As its purpose, Aikido is about teaching aiki, not fighting. My first instructor would say, learning how to fight is a by-product of aikido. I thought that was BS macho talk until a few years back. You do not need to know how to fight to do aiki. You can put aiki into your fighting. In either case, you still need to know how to do aiki.

Conrad Gus
02-19-2014, 12:32 PM
A few people have mentioned Krav Maga, and I thought I would share an experience.

My wife started taking KM recently and I went and watched a few classes. I couldn't believe how much aikido/jiu-jutsu was in it. Of course the throwing aspect is heavily supplemented by the most effective striking that they could find or figure out. For self-defence, I think it is the way to go. I just thought it was interesting that the hardest art and one of the softest (supposedly) are actually very similar.

phitruong
02-19-2014, 12:50 PM
i wonder if folks would tell the judo folks that they need to do more punching and kicking; the karate folks need to do more throwing and locks; BJJ, more stand up striking; sword folks, more pitch forks; dogs, more cats; .....

if you want an all-around martial artists, then take up as many martial arts as you can. go running. weight lifting. put on leotard and do aerobic. swimming. rock climbing. shooting. etc and etc. don't do curling as what in the god name why that's an olympic sport????!!! guys with brooms and a rock, what the hell? sheesh!

we are doing aikido. the way of aiki, whatever the heck that is, right?

dps
02-19-2014, 01:10 PM
i wonder if folks would tell the judo folks that they need to do more punching and kicking; the karate folks need to do more throwing and locks; BJJ, more stand up striking; sword folks, more pitch forks; dogs, more cats; .....

if you want an all-around martial artists, then take up as many martial arts as you can. go running. weight lifting. put on leotard and do aerobic. swimming. rock climbing. shooting. etc and etc. don't do curling as what in the god name why that's an olympic sport????!!! guys with brooms and a rock, what the hell? sheesh!

we are doing aikido. the way of aiki, whatever the heck that is, right?

Curling can be an effective martial art if you have a cooperative attacker who will stand still on a patch of ice while you slide stones at him.
It is an offshoot of the martial art bocce where there doesn't have to be ice.

PeterR
02-19-2014, 02:29 PM
Curling can be an effective martial art if you have a cooperative attacker who will stand still on a patch of ice while you slide stones at him.
It is an offshoot of the martial art bocce where there doesn't have to be ice.

I was once banned from the ice - yes its true banned from curling. I could say its why I started Aikido ....

dps
02-19-2014, 04:27 PM
I was once banned from the ice - yes its true banned from curling. I could say its why I started Aikido ....

Lol.

Janet Rosen
02-19-2014, 06:58 PM
I was once banned from the ice - yes its true banned from curling. I could say its why I started Aikido ....

When they ban me from curling my lip it won't be anything to sneer at! :)

PeterR
02-20-2014, 03:02 AM
When they ban me from curling my lip it won't be anything to sneer at! :)
True story - I kept dropping the rocks.

Budd
02-20-2014, 10:18 AM
True story - I kept dropping the rocks.

So they made you get your rocks off . . the ice.

PeterR
02-20-2014, 11:07 AM
So they made you get your rocks off . . the ice.

:D

JP3
03-02-2014, 03:42 PM
Aikido works great in self-defense. Your aikido doesn't work great in your past-self defense situations is all (totally using a cool sensei saying to make my point) , that's because it takes a long time to become proficient in all the variables of movement involved with aikido.

The striking arts start out with a much steeper, meaning quicker, learning curve for their techniques as they are relatively straightforward, one-body systems of movement vs. those of the grappling-based arts (in which aikido seems to fit) being a two-body system of movement, where one body is under the control of one person, while the other is under your control. Much harder to grip all those variables in a couple years training time.

If you want to quickly become proficient at schoolyard brawls, keep getting into fights, but you'd be safer to do them in a boxing gym, or hard-style karate school in which there are regular hard, near-full contact sparring sessions.

Or do competitive judo, that'll work too.

But, I wager that, unless you are a hard case, which I don't think you are due to the way you phrased the initial inquiry, you'll come around to the more cerebral approach of a softer style eventually. Or, like me, get tired of hitting things that hit back, LOL.

dapidmini88
07-15-2014, 04:20 AM
that's also what comes to my mind when I see most (not all) Aikido videos on the internet.. I've only found very few good video where the performing Aikidoka(s) at least seem to be able to apply Aikido as a martial art. one of them is this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jca0hcNvlHI).

as for myself, all my senseis have always taught me Aikido in a more martial way, not simply as an "Art".. he always told us not to be so close minded and that the basic techniques is not always what they seem to be. shomen-uchi techniques can also be applied for punches to the head, yokomen-uchi can be viewed as hook-punch or mawashi-geri, etc.. once he said to me that he's actually disappointed in how Aikido is being taught in most dojo nowadays.. perhaps it's because the modern world doesn't really need the martial side of Aikido so much anymore. most people who comes to train weren't really looking for the martial side, they just want to get some exercise.

Aikido (especially the fancy techniques) can be used in real martial/fight situation when we understand the essence, which can take decades. when applied in real martial situation, Aikido techniques might not come out as pretty as in the dojo. if you want a fast way to defend against real martial/fight situation, I suggest Krav Maga. since (afaik) the main point of Krav Maga is self-defense, while the main point of Aikido (not Aiki-jujutsu) is harmony, Krav Maga trainings is supposedly more practical..

just my 2 cents.

dapidmini88
07-15-2014, 04:44 AM
Hi Abdul,

when applied in real martial/fight situations, Aikido techniques usually don't come out as pretty and fancy as in the dojo. therefore, most locks CAN be countered, especially when not done and finished correctly. what kind of answer were you expecting from your sensei? if after explaining the fighting situation, your sensei can't give satisfactory solution (assuming you were asking for the correct way to apply the lock), then MAYBE he's only been training Aikido as an Art, not Martial Art.

usually we won't be able to apply Aikido techniques in real martial/fight situations after training for 2 years because our reflexes won't be good enough and we will only be able to think of complicated techniques to use. my seniors who gets into fights a lot told me that we don't need too much technique in an actual fight. he actually only had to use one-two techniques in most of his fights to KO his enemies (people on the street usually have little to no martial skills). he said that what's really important are the basics, like footwork, ma-ai, and controlling balance.

one of my Sensei always told us to have an open mind and not only see things as they appear. a shomen-uchi is just like a punch to the face, a yokomen-uchi is just like a hook-punch or mawashi geri, a katatedori is actually a response for previous attack (shomen-uchi, yokomen-uchi), etc..

IMHO, most people who say that they don't use Aikido in a fight because it's "too deadly", "a peaceful art", etc (but unable to do the techniques in dojo when attacked seriously by a person who don't practice Aikido) are either fooling themselves or afraid of fights or just incompetent.

you might want to check out this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jca0hcNvlHI). this is one of the very few Aikido video I found on the internet that shows Aikido in (as close as it gets) real martial/life situation with great quality techniques.

NagaBaba
07-15-2014, 01:22 PM
you might want to check out this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jca0hcNvlHI). this is one of the very few Aikido video I found on the internet that shows Aikido in (as close as it gets) real martial/life situation with great quality techniques.

This video has nothing to do with martial situations. It is only demo choreography where ‘attacker follows the movements and allows nage to execute beautifully some techniques. Martial implies danger, otherwise it is nice healthy gymnastic.

Janet Rosen
07-15-2014, 03:10 PM
This video has nothing to do with martial situations. It is only demo choreography where ‘attacker follows the movements and allows nage to execute beautifully some techniques. Martial implies danger, otherwise it is nice healthy gymnastic.

Yep. Lovely demo. But a demo.

philipsmith
07-17-2014, 12:07 PM
For once totally agree with Szczepan, & not so unusually with Janet.
This is a demo - nicely done but a demo non the less. In a real situation Aikido is a messy, crude and dangerous affair.
Something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLT7IqTQzJ0

kewms
07-17-2014, 01:05 PM
The reason why Aikido can be termed "deadly" is simply this, the locks and holds work, yet lets bear in mind that they are not always meant to be used as simple submission holds; yes that works in some situations, yet if someone is attacking you physically you may have no option but to use the technique in full and break someones joints or limbs, that is the final end move of several Aikido techniques... If you think as a novice or even intermediate Aikidoa you can over power and lock someone indefinatley, you are likely going to struggle, more so if its against multiple attackers where you have no choice but to render the first and second ones unconcious or with damaged joints / limbs so they are immobile.

The way it was explained to me is that the locks in aikido were originally intended to immobilize the person just long enough for nage to, say, draw a short sword and kill them. They were never intended to, say, hold the person until the police show up. For starters, in a multiple attacker situation you just don't have that kind of time.

Real situations aren't going to look like big, beautiful kihon waza, it's true. And it's true that it's probably not the art I'd pick if I wanted to be a professional fighter. (Although judo seems to be working pretty well for Ronda Rousey.) But ... Abdul, you said that sankyo worked for you against a pretty big guy, and you're only two years in. If you were to use that sankyo to smack him into a hard surface a couple of times, it wouldn't be long before you didn't have to worry much about fights at school any more. So what's the issue?

Katherine

Phil Van Treese
07-17-2014, 03:10 PM
This BS about aikido works or doesn't work is really tiresome. Any martial art is only as good as the person using it. If you are so worried that it won't work in a fight, then you need to train harder. I have been jumped at ATMs here in the States and over in Europe, used martial arts in Viet Nam, etc, etc. I am triple ranked so I can add whatever I need to at the time. Regardless, if you think your martial art doesn't work or is ineffective, then train harder. Train as though your life depends on it. One day it just might. Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for someone else. So if you are dissatisfied with aikido, or any other martial, then take up video games.

Abdul Rashid
07-19-2014, 11:48 PM
Thank you very much :) !

George S. Ledyard
07-27-2014, 05:04 AM
Aikido is a system of martial practice. In my own opinion, it was intended to be the study of connection between human beings and humans and their environment. That said, I taught Aikido based Defensive Tactics to Police and Security folks for ten years and everything I taught was used on the street with real bad guys quite successfully. But it didn't look anything like class. It's a lot rougher and uglier. If you are interested in effective street application, you need to practice that way. Traditional Aikido provides a solid foundation but you have to take those principles and learn to apply them freely against people who don't know any ukemi. will break connection as soon as they don't like what is happening, will hit you any chance they get while you try to apply a technique, etc. Robert Koga, Bernie Lau, David Dye and many others used Aikido on the street but they all changed the training paradigm from the formalistic method we use for traditional practice. It just depends on what you want. In my opinion, too much focus on street application will prevent one from getting to the deepest levels of the art. You'll learn good tricks for prevailing but the kind of freestyle, oppositional practice required will be too chaotic to really isolate the most sophisticated principles of the art.

orion7421
09-02-2014, 07:59 AM
When asking if a martial art is useful in battle you have to first ask when and what was it created for, Aikido was created post war and government approved which means the technical part of the art was not meant for combat.The government was not about to let people be trained to potentially rise against them,however we are influenced by movies but forget they are movies.Also you would never want to apply a technique to someone who is fully aware of what you are doing that's where striking becomes a crucial part, that's why when you train you should always do so with no resistance. If the technique can not be easily applied then you should continue striking until it can be.Trying to apply technique against resistance only teaches you to struggle with someone over a lock when the you know what hits the fan. We have to also realize that aikido is only 1 piece of the combat and not the combat itself, it is the art of escaping and so when we practice our focus should be on what the attacker is doing and how they are getting out of the break with breakfall. Not on what the teacher is doing, that's not what that practice is for but this is where it will be tough for people. People train and want recognition for time spent their ego is craving it, when we study these things we must do so without ego because it is not us that are important only the art itself.

Greg Jennings
09-03-2014, 06:43 AM
When asking if a martial art is useful in battle

Notwithstanding the etymology of "martial", "Martial Art", almost always infers self defense in a civilian setting. Self defense and battle are very, very different things.

orion7421
09-03-2014, 07:48 AM
could you explain to me a bit deeper how self-defense and battle are different , thanks

Greg Jennings
09-03-2014, 08:49 AM
See your PM.

PeterR
09-03-2014, 09:29 AM
Notwithstanding the etymology of "martial", "Martial Art", almost always infers self defense in a civilian setting. Self defense and battle are very, very different things.

Well I would have to disagree - for instance I just can't see a kendoka or an iaido practioner running around the streets with the tools of their trade. Yet both are martial artists.

The battle or not battle depends on how you define battle.

Greg Jennings
09-03-2014, 10:15 AM
Peter, that's like Bill Clinton (in)famously defining oral sex to not be sex.

If we are not to use the well-defined meaning of terms, communication is going to grind to a halt.

kewms
09-03-2014, 10:37 AM
Peter, that's like Bill Clinton (in)famously defining oral sex to not be sex.

If we are not to use the well-defined meaning of terms, communication is going to grind to a halt.

Are you saying, then, that the sword arts are not martial arts because they are not (in our modern world) generally applied in a civilian setting? Or are you drawing a distinction between the older, combat-oriented sword forms and those which evolved for civilian use?

In that case, I don't think it is Peter who is causing communication to grind to a halt.

Katherine

Greg Jennings
09-03-2014, 10:52 AM
No, I'm drawing a line between "battle" and what we do as martial artists.

It's obvious that what we do in martial arts has their roots in war...thus *martial* arts.

But, what we do, what the most knock-down, drag-out MMA fight is, and "battle" are *worlds* different except in hyperbole.

That does not denigrate either endeavor. Just battle is battle and martial arts training or competition is just that. The two are related, but now only at a distance.

Greg Jennings
09-03-2014, 11:32 AM
Just to be clear...

War = Organized violence between states and non-state actors to achieve political ends.
Warefare = The collection of techniques used to carry out war.
Battle = A component of the hierarchy of combat (fighting) in war.

and, while I'm at it,

Warrior = One whose avocation is war.

Contrasted with:

Martial Art = A codified system or tradition of fighting practiced for self defense, competition, health or personal development.

...and while I'm at it, how many of those "martial" arts were not developed by or commonly practiced by warriors.

Martial Artist = One who practices a martial art.

I don't claim that those are "end all and be all" definitions. But, they'll serve to to ease communication...at least when I'm the party being communicated with.

Greg Jennings
09-03-2014, 12:02 PM
If anyone is interested, they might read John Keegan's "A History of Warfare" and "On Combat" by Dave Grossman. The former is about war. The latter about the combat.

"On Combat" would be an interesting read no matter what.

In a different vein, I highly suggest http://www.hoplology.com/ .

Alec Corper
09-04-2014, 03:42 AM
I pretty much agree with what greg has said. the use of agreed to terminology might save a lot of endless discussion and pointless training. I would also recommend Keegan and Grossman, and would add Rory Miller's work to further examine the difference, shortfall, and/or value of martial art versus self defence. Of course there are analogous and comparative overlaps between territories, but for example, dedicated training in a martial art will probably not train you to identify suspicious body language as a precast to violence. If it did you would remove yourself from the area. Ideal self defence, no martial art needed. Very few dojos teach deception as a self defence skill, after all acting scared to pave the way for proactive defence makes a lot of sense but doesn't always jibe with peoples idea of being a noble warrior.
Modern aikido is a martial art which is technically irrelevant on the modern battlefield where H2H is considered only after 3 levels of weapons failure. It could, of course, be argued that through aikido practise you would gain more strategic awareness but I don't honestly see much evidence to support this.

phitruong
09-04-2014, 07:08 AM
It could, of course, be argued that through aikido practise you would gain more strategic awareness but I don't honestly see much evidence to support this.

methink, the word here is "strategic", meaning planning and thinking ahead, way ahead. whereas, most aikido practice stress be in the moment, be in the now. tactical maybe; strategic, no.

Alec Corper
09-04-2014, 08:25 AM
Nope Phi,
I meant exactly what i said. I understand the difference between strategy and tactics. I was actually saying that I don't think aikido will develop strategic awareness, and if it did we would talk less about instant aikido"self defence' since it would not be necessary.
"Being in the now", love that phrase, requires enormous strategic and tactical training before you can throw it all away. The assumption that a martial art will provide that through some kind of magical osmosis is false, IMHO

Alec Corper
09-04-2014, 08:29 AM
P.S.
This is the same as trying to equate "using your body in a natural way" with "using you body according to the natural principles of yin/yang". My natural and your natural are different, but when trained similar, no?

kewms
09-04-2014, 12:27 PM
Of course there are analogous and comparative overlaps between territories, but for example, dedicated training in a martial art will probably not train you to identify suspicious body language as a precast to violence. If it did you would remove yourself from the area. Ideal self defence, no martial art needed.

Sparring and weapons arts absolutely teach the ability to read body language, in order to judge the timing of an attack. I agree, though, that the connection between those skills and "street self defense" is a bit more tenuous.

Katherine

Alec Corper
09-04-2014, 12:52 PM
Actually Katherine, thats's not what I am talking about. Reading the timing of an attack is a useful skill but it means you didn't read the language before the attack even was launched. That kind of self defence is very useful after your skills in awareness, avoidance, and de-escalation have already failed you and you now have no choice but to engage, Sen no sen or sen go no sen is all very well but if you are not already in a war zone how come you stumbled into one, or worse still created one by acting wrongly in an unidentified territory.
I have done plenty of sparring and weapons work over the years, I do not believe they help one bit to improve your awareness outside the dojo unless you consciously identify and transfer those skills. I lived in Israel many years ago and had friends in Mossad and IDF who had done things in wartime and behind enemy lines that would scare the hell out of me and yet in daily life they could be as daft as the next person.
Martial artists who walk down a street chatting on their mobile phone without any idea of who is watching them, or sizing them up, are as unprepared as anyone else.

kewms
09-04-2014, 01:40 PM
Actually Katherine, thats's not what I am talking about. Reading the timing of an attack is a useful skill but it means you didn't read the language before the attack even was launched. That kind of self defence is very useful after your skills in awareness, avoidance, and de-escalation have already failed you and you now have no choice but to engage, Sen no sen or sen go no sen is all very well but if you are not already in a war zone how come you stumbled into one, or worse still created one by acting wrongly in an unidentified territory.

Fair enough. I absolutely agree.

Along these lines, I highly recommend Gavin de Becker's book, "The Gift of Fear," which focuses on skills for identifying bad people and bad situations before physical self defense skills become necessary. Among other things he recommends a "think like a mugger" exercise. Where are the hiding places for potential attackers near your home, in the parking garage at work, near your favorite club?

Katherine

Alec Corper
09-04-2014, 02:02 PM
Yes, great book read it when it first came out , 15 -20 years ago. just as valid now.
My point is that aikido is an "actual" martial art, but that is not the same as self defence which is much bigger than physical techniques and philosophy. people delude themselves and fail the art by avoiding this issue and practising sophistry instead.
As an instructor I find it very difficult to be all things to all people, if people want self defence they should not go to a dojo, they should go to a school that specialises in self defence. If the first class is how to poke eyes and strike the throat they should leave immediately, not because its violent but because its stupid.
One of the best self defence instructors I know, Datu Kelly Worden sums it up in a nice simple formula
Awareness
Avoidance
De-escalation
Defence
Escape or Explain ( to the authorities)

Filling this in requires a lot of pre-thought and study

Rory Millers' concept of "go buttons" is another psychological training that most martial artists don't think about, except in heroic fantasy terms.

Glib answers to the validity of aikido as a system of self defence are pointless since it is not for self defence. It is for developing a martial body, understanding martial movement, and embodying an unwavering spirit. Can that be tweaked for self defence? Sure. Will it still be aikido, I doubt it. Does that really matter. Depends on you.

Stephen Nichol
09-18-2014, 01:34 AM
I am happy to have read Greg's posts regarding his definition of Warrior's and Martial Artists as well as the purpose behind those systems and their goals for people.

I agree with them completely as well as Alec's post about what Self Defense should be.. and it is more about being prepared, know how to be more aware and what to look out for to avoid the need for violence to protect yourself or others.

So many people need to stop believing in movies, fight scenes, demo's etc when they come to a dojo or martial art school of any sort looking for that sort of thing.

Like you said Alec, it's hard to be everything for everyone... and the most liberating part of that awareness is to be able to tell those people that maybe they will be able to find some of what they are looking for here and there and not feel the need to be anything at all for them but leave it up to them to find what they need for themselves.

When I go to the dojo and practice the 'art' I am much more aware of what it is supposed to be instilling in me and I do not get caught up in the individual techniques anymore. I just look at how it is trying to condition me, force me to improve through re-development of my mind to body connection. The techniques are just a means to that end and far from being the point of it all.

You could study many different arts and get the same thing if you were looking for it I would imagine. It is nice to be able to choose an art that fits your personality in these modern times.

Anyway, thanks for the excellent post Alec.

fatebass21
12-13-2014, 07:22 AM
Abdul,

Reference the following link for a great article on practical aikido outside of the dojo. It is very interesting and relates to what you are discussing here. This was written by Chris Hein who is part of this community.

http://www.aikidostudent.com/ASCv2/?p=393

Tim Fong
01-20-2015, 02:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoQQlOEnSFI

I feel like this video offered some of the best aikido I've seen, in terms of flowing through transitions and responding to a fluid situation. Which is what martial arts are supposed to be about , right?

Nicholas Eschenbruch
01-20-2015, 02:45 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoQQlOEnSFI

I feel like this video offered some of the best aikido I've seen, in terms of flowing through transitions and responding to a fluid situation. Which is what martial arts are supposed to be about , right?

This is beautiful, thanks for posting! Could not quite find out who the guys were?

Tim Fong
01-21-2015, 10:59 PM
I couldn't either. The YouTube channel is the Shodokan aikido federation for Russia, I think.