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tim evans
01-19-2014, 11:07 PM
Ushiro waza dynamic I do ok on But for katatori(wrist) or ryotetori (double grab) gets me every time any thoughts or tips on how to improve leading your uke.thanks

robin_jet_alt
01-20-2014, 05:38 AM
That really depends on what you are doing and what they are doing. Regardless, I don't like 'leading'. Why not try 'not leading'.

asiawide
01-20-2014, 07:15 AM
You can and you should be able to move uke from static position. There are some(or many?) different methods to do it. This is one of the basic way to move your uke when two of you are strongly connected. Look at 00:03~00:04 It's externally visible. But you can make this very small.

http://youtu.be/hhbhZGvK58A

NagaBaba
01-20-2014, 07:33 AM
Yes, static exercises are excellent to discover where the weaknesses of uke are. Usually with dynamic execution you can cheat and hide your errors, static training displaying it very clearly. Very strong static attack allows you to adjust your posture, check for constant flexibility of the muscles, learn how to redirect attacker’s power, maintain correct distance and angles of your attack. You have to look where there is no resistance and enter there immediately. Of course, in the beginning, uke must be mature enough to not to change his attack by adjusting to your technique, to help you, otherwise you will learn not much. However progressively, once you become more comfortable, he should increase difficulty of his attack, by neutralizing your attempts to execute a technique. Next level can be two uke are attacking your arm with morotedori attack …etc…

You may see the video from Yoshinkan, also Saito sensei, and Kanetsuka sensei for some technical details how to approach such training if you can’t get help from your instructor.
Personally I’m including a lot of static exercises in my daily training.

tim evans
01-20-2014, 10:34 PM
Thanks for the responses. I will try to do it from the static position and see how it develops.

Alex Megann
01-21-2014, 09:18 AM
You may see the video from Yoshinkan, also Saito sensei, and Kanetsuka sensei for some technical details how to approach such training if you can't get help from your instructor.
Personally I'm including a lot of static exercises in my daily training.

Yes, Kanetsuka Sensei approves very strongly practise from static attacks. He has stopped more than one yudansha grading, insisting that the candidates allow their attackers in ushiro-waza to get a proper grip, rather than performing flowing techniques.

On the other hand, one of his favourite phrases is "LEAD attacker…" :). By that, my understanding is that he means to move the attacker's centre in order to get them to go where you want, rather than using force.

Alex

jonreading
01-21-2014, 02:32 PM
I am not a "leading" fan. Leading supposes there is also a following; so what if you partner does not follow? For us, we use the term "connected" specifically to speak about a relationship when all power from nage is transferred into uke. That is, when I move my partner moves. This is a two-way street since uke can also transfer power into nage. The concept of "leading" is related more to the order of affection; its more about who is first to affect (and prevent from recovering) the other. It is not so much a lead/follow relationship but an affect/recover relationship.

To complicate matters, there then is the issue of directing power into your partner's center and preventing your partner from directing power into your center. whole other thread...

RonRagusa
01-22-2014, 10:45 PM
Leading supposes there is also a following; so what if you partner does not follow?

It isn't necessary for your partner to follow you. Leading means to lead uke's motion by staying just ahead of it while you follow him.

This is a two-way street since uke can also transfer power into nage.

As long as you stay ahead of uke's movement and mirror him, there can be no transference of power from him to you.

Ron

robin_jet_alt
01-23-2014, 12:03 AM
Leading means to lead uke's motion by staying just ahead of it while you follow him.

Ron

This is why I get confused. Should I be staying ahead of it or following it?


As long as you stay ahead of uke's movement and mirror him, there can be no transference of power from him to you.

Ron

And this is a good thing? Call me power hungry if you will, but I thought the whole point was to transfer power from him to me.

RonRagusa
01-23-2014, 08:08 AM
This is why I get confused. Should I be staying ahead of it or following it?

By "it" I assume you mean uke's motion. Perhaps an analogy will help. Imagine a horse, a cart, a carrot, some string and a stick.Now in order to get the horse to move the cart I have to hang the carrot from the stick using the string and dangle it in front of the his nose. The horse, though, has a mind of his own and will often change direction with no warning. If he loses sight of the carrot he will stop.In order to keep the horse moving I have to make sure he can always see the carrot so I have to simultaneously stay slightly ahead of his motion (lead) while following where he goes.

And this is a good thing? Call me power hungry if you will, but I thought the whole point was to transfer power from him to me.

What I mean by the 'transference of power' is the idea that I can transfer power to uke in order to adversely affect his intention to attack such that I can execute a throw or otherwise immobilize him. I would rather that the reverse transference from him to me not take place for obvious reasons.

Ron

allowedcloud
01-23-2014, 09:00 AM
By "it" I assume you mean uke's motion. Perhaps an analogy will help. Imagine a horse, a cart, a carrot, some string and a stick.Now in order to get the horse to move the cart I have to hang the carrot from the stick using the string and dangle it in front of the his nose. The horse, though, has a mind of his own and will often change direction with no warning. If he loses sight of the carrot he will stop.In order to keep the horse moving I have to make sure he can always see the carrot so I have to simultaneously stay slightly ahead of his motion (lead) while following where he goes.

Ron

It seems to me that this will only work so long as uke decides to do what you want, on his own, in a dojo. This fails when you're actually fighting someone smarter than a horse. As for myself, I prefer to be in a position where the person has no choice but to move with me (not me moving with him), using connection.

Anjisan
01-23-2014, 09:57 AM
It seems to me that this will only work so long as uke decides to do what you want, on his own, in a dojo. This fails when you're actually fighting someone smarter than a horse. As for myself, I prefer to be in a position where the person has no choice but to move with me (not me moving with him), using connection.

By moving as Ron is describing one is moving with Uke but just slightly ahead. What the Uke wants is to strike or grab or whatever. Ultimately, one is grabbing their mind and manipulating their intention, their desire to harm you. As one progresses the circles, the leading becomes smaller and smaller. Initially, I just moved as Saotome sensei told my sensei, "Move in or out, left or right." After that by being in a safe place, say right next to them you can change as they change, adjust as they do. I let them lead, but yet stay just a little bit ahead of them. It sounds contradictory but that is how it plays out. When I do it, I feel very connected to my Uke and it also plays out that way in a randori setting as well.

Train Hard
Jason

allowedcloud
01-23-2014, 10:47 AM
By moving as Ron is describing one is moving with Uke but just slightly ahead. What the Uke wants is to strike or grab or whatever. Ultimately, one is grabbing their mind and manipulating their intention, their desire to harm you. As one progresses the circles, the leading becomes smaller and smaller. Initially, I just moved as Saotome sensei told my sensei, "Move in or out, left or right." After that by being in a safe place, say right next to them you can change as they change, adjust as they do. I let them lead, but yet stay just a little bit ahead of them. It sounds contradictory but that is how it plays out. When I do it, I feel very connected to my Uke and it also plays out that way in a randori setting as well.

Train Hard
Jason

I was never a believer in the theory that Aikido "takes away the opponent's desire to harm you". I much prefer to make him realize that he *can't* harm me...by taking kuzushi on-contact, and using that to control the encounter.

You mentioned Saotome. Have you seen Saotome "matching" his movement with what uke is doing? I haven't. He just enters, does his thing, and uke is thrown.

Have you heard him talk about "matching" or "blending" with an opponent's movement? I haven't.

Though I have heard him (more recently) talk about controlling uke with aiki, using yin and yang and maintaining polarity throughout the body - though that stuff probably belongs in another forum :)

jonreading
01-23-2014, 12:18 PM
It isn't necessary for your partner to follow you. Leading means to lead uke's motion by staying just ahead of it while you follow him.

As long as you stay ahead of uke's movement and mirror him, there can be no transference of power from him to you.

Ron

Some of this may just be semantics. "Leading" falls into my bag of bad language used to describe movement within aikido. I am also not a fan of "leading from behind." Ultimately, the spirit of leadership is to solicit a unified direction from another body. If your partner is not following your leadership, then you are not leading anything. Under such circumstances you are moving only yourself in a coincidental direction as another body. Once the coincidental movement changes direction, you have no authority to re-direct that movement. Often, we end up reinforcing our poor direction with either physical or verbal chastising. An example I think many of us experience is the "don't move there" lecture we receive when uke moves different from how nage desires [uke to move]. This does not qualify for my definition of leadership, much as the thought of army commanders standing behind soldiers and shooting those who retreat does not imply leadership.

You used an example of cart and horse. As I perceive that example, the driver's choice to sit behind the horse is irrelevant to the the fact the carrot must be presented in front of the horse and moved in the direction the driver desires the horse to move. Similarly, a driver using a whip to direct the horse must present the whip from behind to spur the horse forward. Both examples are not leadership, but rather aggravation.

Second, I have difficulty reconciling technique that splits movement. One of the things we practice as both uke and nage is moving with unity. If uke is doing her job, she would be pursing your center, not an extremity; if she got an extremity, she could transfer her whole body power into you because you are connected. The idea of baiting your partner is difficult to accomplish if your uke if not following a carrot, but rather following you. Imagine the carrot in your pocket as you sit behind the horse...

I think the concept of being ahead of you partner is not leadership. I think it is simply arriving to the best position first. If you partner is smart, that will change their position and you have adversely affected your partner's ability to control you. I do not understand why I need to use language that is relationship-oriented to describe what is individual movement; I believe the term "lead" brings with it the connotation of a role within a relationship (i.e. if I am a leader, then my partner must be a follower). To use this term and then not describe the related role of your partner is confusing at best. To somewhat contradict your point, I argue that many people who train in this fashion do, in fact, need their partner to follow them. And that is not to take away from the success of training with a compliant uke who is helping nage learn how the movement takes place, but it is to point out a different training perspective.

To talk about my experience with Saotome sensei, he moves with balance. Your part in whatever he is doing is mostly irrelevant to preventing his movement. You move to points of safety from which you can press a new "attack". He often performs a silly little demo where you shake hands. This is one of the best exercises I have seen for introspectively looking at what "best" and "first" mean in a martial encounter. For me, this is the embodiment of irrimi.

RonRagusa
01-23-2014, 01:43 PM
Some of this may just be semantics. "Leading" falls into my bag of bad language used to describe movement within aikido. I am also not a fan of "leading from behind." Ultimately, the spirit of leadership is to solicit a unified direction from another body. If your partner is not following your leadership, then you are not leading anything.

You're right, same word different connotations.

Under such circumstances you are moving only yourself in a coincidental direction as another body. Once the coincidental movement changes direction, you have no authority to re-direct that movement.

I don't need to re-direct uke's movement. It's a matter of staying ahead of it while moving with it.

Often, we end up reinforcing our poor direction with either physical or verbal chastising. An example I think many of us experience is the "don't move there" lecture we receive when uke moves different from how nage desires [uke to move].

We don't have that lecture in our dojo. Every uke encompasses a unique set of characteristics that affect how they move; they're all different, presenting different challenges. I have learned to not expect anything from uke. Giving up expectations allows me to remain in the moment and occupy the center of our interaction no matter what uke does.

You used an example of cart and horse. As I perceive that example, the driver's choice to sit behind the horse is irrelevant to the the fact the carrot must be presented in front of the horse and moved in the direction the driver desires the horse to move. Similarly, a driver using a whip to direct the horse must present the whip from behind to spur the horse forward. Both examples are not leadership, but rather aggravation.

The analogy was put forth merely to clarify the context of my use of the word lead. You are taking it to literally

One of the things we practice as both uke and nage is moving with unity.

As do we.

If uke is doing her job, she would be pursing your center...

Yes, pursuing nage's center is the goal of any attack.

The idea of baiting your partner is difficult to accomplish if your uke if not following a carrot, but rather following you.

An example of taking the analogy too literally. To torture it a bit further, I am the carrot... and the driver of the cart.

If you partner is smart, that will change their position and you have adversely affected your partner's ability to control you.

??? Perhaps a typo, but at no time does uke control me. And I encourage uke to make the attempt.

I do not understand why I need to use language that is relationship-oriented to describe what is individual movement; I believe the term "lead" brings with it the connotation of a role within a relationship (i.e. if I am a leader, then my partner must be a follower).

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

Ron

jonreading
01-23-2014, 02:45 PM
In reference to your question about a possible typo in my post...

One of the things that gives me trouble is how my partner engages me.

What I try to understand is why, as nage, would I move if uke cannot control me? In other words, for what reason (other than doing something to uke), would I move if the threat uke presented could not affect me? The obvious answer is I would not need to do anything. Since we do something, it stands to reason that uke has to threaten my position and cause me to address the attack.

As a rhetorical question, the ultimate goal of "attacking" should be to gain control over your partner, a good attack then representing a real threat to nage. In this sense, for proper training uke should accomplish one of three things: 1. the successful attack requires nage to address the attack, 2. the successful attack is greater than nage can accommodate and uke relinquishes some advantage back to nage to address the attack, 3. the successful attack is greater than nage can accommodate and uke gains control.

Honestly, I find myself in categories 2 and 3 often when I am nage. While I get what you are saying, I am not yet in a position where my aikido functions at a level where uke cannot influence some (or all) or my movement.

robin_jet_alt
01-23-2014, 03:19 PM
Sorry Ron, I'm afraid your analogies are just confusing, whereas Jon and Joshua make perfect sense to me.

Mary Eastland
01-23-2014, 04:45 PM
Sorry Ron, I'm afraid your analogies are just confusing, whereas Jon and Joshua make perfect sense to me.

Of course they are confusing...it like trying to talk about football with an English person. Aikido that you do is different from aikido that we do. :D

Mary Eastland
01-23-2014, 04:48 PM
It seems to me that this will only work so long as uke decides to do what you want, on his own, in a dojo. This fails when you're actually fighting someone smarter than a horse. As for myself, I prefer to be in a position where the person has no choice but to move with me (not me moving with him), using connection.

It is not a fight, Loud Cloud.

robin_jet_alt
01-23-2014, 05:20 PM
Of course they are confusing...it like trying to talk about football with an English person. Aikido that you do is different from aikido that we do. :D

The English know all about football. They invented it, didn't they? :D

Anjisan
01-23-2014, 06:22 PM
I was never a believer in the theory that Aikido "takes away the opponent's desire to harm you". I much prefer to make him realize that he *can't* harm me...by taking kuzushi on-contact, and using that to control the encounter.

You mentioned Saotome. Have you seen Saotome "matching" his movement with what uke is doing? I haven't. He just enters, does his thing, and uke is thrown.

Have you heard him talk about "matching" or "blending" with an opponent's movement? I haven't.

Though I have heard him (more recently) talk about controlling uke with aiki, using yin and yang and maintaining polarity throughout the body - though that stuff probably belongs in another forum :)

I agree with you that Aikido does not, "take away the opponent's desire to harm you" certainly not in a physical sense anyway. Personally, I don't care what they realize. They could have an epiphany or scream their brains out it really doesn't matter as long as I can neutralize the threat. I'm in ASU so that is why I mention Saotome sensei. Indeed, I have never heard him mention "matching" but I have heard him speak of blending and leading numerous times over the 20 years I've been in his organization both at seminars and at the shrine. What I am speaking of is different than the "Internal" approach you may be referring to. Finally, I also agree with you that Kuzushi on contact is a worthy goal and one that I share, however just not always possible so one has to continue to have a relationship with the aggressor until the threat is over. Besides, there is more than one way to achieve it.

Train Hard,
Jason

allowedcloud
01-24-2014, 05:54 AM
It is not a fight, Loud Cloud.

My comment about fighting was referring to outside the dojo..not during paired waza practice. But I just don't think the practice is martial when you have ukes doing things like desperately trying to follow an arm that make no sense in an actual martial encounter.

But I guess it depends on what you're ultimately shooting for. I took a look at your dojo's website and no where does it advertise that you're teaching a functional martial art. I actually applaud this, after all aikido can provide any multitude of benefits besides self defense.

phitruong
01-24-2014, 12:31 PM
if you do the normal ushiro stuffs where uke tries to run around you, then the whole leading/following sort of make sense. if you have uke from hell, who just comes straight in and grab your arm then either off balance you through some sort of ikkyo or kotegaeshi shape, then follow with hitting you repeatedly, then the whole leading/following would just be silly. come to think of it, the whole ushiro stuffs are kinda silly, at least to me, unless it's about exploring some aikido principles like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5NlUdYXPjI

Anjisan
01-24-2014, 01:14 PM
I agree that the Ushiro attack is a pretty silly attack. I believe that I read somewhere, probably in a John Stevens book that Osensei believed that it was unsound to let someone get behind you but that Ushiro taught that one can still recover if they do. Also, to just stand there like a tree seems tactically unsound as well. I think of Randori and Ushiro similarly in that way. In that context, the attacker/s have to grab you where you want them to or at least where they are able to and not just Teeing off on where they want to and how they want to.

George S. Ledyard
01-24-2014, 01:17 PM
The problem with discussions of this type come from the generally low level of understanding that people within Aikido have about a term like "leading". The result is many serious teachers and practitioners say they don't like the term or think it is just something "aiki bunnies" talk about.

In fact, what skilled teachers have meant by "leading" is fundamentally based on ones ability to do static technique with "aiki", requiring a good understanding of how "connection" works. Since not that many folks in Aikido actually understand this very well, what has passed for "leading" has been nage staying ahead of an attack with uke being trained to chase him. Try that with someone from another art who hasn't been trained to run around his partner chasing a grab.

In actuality, if a body movement is simply moving away from an attack, there is no reason for the attacker to deal with it. It is actually a break in connection and is not "leading" anything. Real leading has to do with how one places ones "intention" creating a feeling in the attacker that he actually does just about have you. It starts with a mental connection. That energetic connection must be there, flowing inside the energy of the attack so that the physical "lead" is not perceived as moving away from the attacker. A real lead creates a feeling that uke must follow, wants to follow. But we can't get to an understanding of what this means with ukes who are taught from day one to follow or chase any moving target. Ukes need to be taught to recognize the difference between something they need to deal with and something they do not need to deal with. If someone attempts to "lead" an attack and doesn't do it properly, the uke should apply a counter.

jadee
01-24-2014, 01:26 PM
Oy vey, computer crash and now having to follow another excellent post from Ledyard Sensei...

Given that you list your dojo as USAF, have you seen Yamada Sensei's videos showing these (granted, from years ago)? Several here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJWrOa-jkCU

Interestingly, he demonstrates these techniques similarly to the way Saotome Sensei has; the "narrative" of the waza is that nage has messed up and uke has slipped behind and the waza is about recovering from this terrible position, which is consistent with a position that uke and nage engage in a fluid martial situation... perhaps you can discuss creating a progressively more static/challenging situation with your uke so that you can identify the point at which how you do things stop working?

I also can't resist watching Saito Sensei on these matters for static start - my latest focus, for whatever that's worth, is feeling it as kokyu ho with asagao-no-te going on, etc...

tlk52
01-24-2014, 02:06 PM
I think that what George Ledyard just said above is on the money.

allowedcloud
01-24-2014, 02:27 PM
Just by chance I came across this article today by David Orange (who was a student of Minoru Mochizuki) that discusses many of these issues. I found it an interesting read

http://www.aikidoacademyusa.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=284

Janet Rosen
01-24-2014, 02:40 PM
Ledyard Sensei expressed it perfectly.
At the other extreme was my experience...being uke for a young, longlimbed fit guy a foot taller than me. He wanted me to run around him to grab the second hand. As he was "leading", this would necessitate me literally sprinting at a dead heat in a circle around him. After doing it once, I respectfully asked him how this could by any stretch be considered an attack. I was told "this is the correct way."
I was 4 th kyu at the time and he a nidan. And yeah there is a point at which one is supposed to have faith in the teaching. But damnit that was just wrong.

SteveTrinkle
01-24-2014, 03:04 PM
TakedaYoshinobu Sensei is the absolute best I've ever felt at this he says enigmatically
""make a vacumand let uke be drawn into it it's weird to feel him do it this should be in the IHTBFColumnperhaps

hughrbeyer
01-24-2014, 03:51 PM
In O-Sensei's Budo, if I have it right, he talks about how one challenge of an ushiro technique is that you don't know when uke is going to grab you so you have to respond to an unanticipated attack. Which suggests that all these ushiro attacks where uke comes from the front and runs around nage are very much missing the point. Our very own Kevin L talks about the important of training to start from a compromised position--I see the ushiro techniques as being training for that.

Mary Eastland
01-24-2014, 04:44 PM
I agree with some of what you wrote, George.

However not this,
'
. If someone attempts to "lead" an attack and doesn't do it properly, the uke should apply a counter.

If students train this way in the beginning nothing can be accomplished. Leading and following are important parts of the art that we practice. The role of uke takes a lot of skill. It can't be accomplished in an atmosphere where everyone wants to counter.

Uke should not be taught to counter until they reach a certain understanding of aikido training.

Janet Rosen
01-24-2014, 04:51 PM
Just by chance I came across this article today by David Orange (who was a student of Minoru Mochizuki) that discusses many of these issues. I found it an interesting read

http://www.aikidoacademyusa.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=284

Worth reading. Thank you for the link!

George S. Ledyard
01-24-2014, 06:32 PM
I agree with some of what you wrote, George.

However not this,
'

If students train this way in the beginning nothing can be accomplished. Leading and following are important parts of the art that we practice. The role of uke takes a lot of skill. It can't be accomplished in an atmosphere where everyone wants to counter.

Uke should not be taught to counter until they reach a certain understanding of aikido training.

I didn't say at the beginning. There's nothing except cooperative training that can be done before a certain point. But once they reach a point, certainly yudansha level, they should start training this way.
The uke is there to enhance the learning of the nage. The lack of feedback from uke about "suki" or openings or ineffective attempts to get kuzushi is what hurts Aikido quality more than any single thing.

I'm not saying you counter them every time. If nage makes a mistake, there should be a counter, instantly. The uke needs to be trained to sense the opportunity and execute the kaeshiwaza instantly, before the opening is closed. If it becomes apparent that nage has a technical issue and doesn't know how to correct the problem, then you have to slow things down and perhaps ask the teacher to assist.

But it is crucial to the quality practice of the art that uke and nage not be separate practices. Both should be doing the same thing, trying to get to the partner's center. If uke is doing one thing and nage is doing another the body / mind just doesn't develop the automatic responses they need to in order to become good martial artists.

George S. Ledyard
01-24-2014, 06:39 PM
I agree that the Ushiro attack is a pretty silly attack. I believe that I read somewhere, probably in a John Stevens book that Osensei believed that it was unsound to let someone get behind you but that Ushiro taught that one can still recover if they do. Also, to just stand there like a tree seems tactically unsound as well. I think of Randori and Ushiro similarly in that way. In that context, the attacker/s have to grab you where you want them to or at least where they are able to and not just Teeing off on where they want to and how they want to.

O-Sensei stated that (and this applies to allowing the uke to actually be behind you and initiate an attack) ushiro waza was about training your intuition. By that he meant training your other senses to perceive an attack rather than simply using just the eyes.

The Ura practice of the uke starting in the front and attempting to slip to the rear, resulting on our beautiful spiral waza, is a connection exercise and is not representative of applied technique. It's more a test of ones ability to connect and stay connected through a complex series of movements without leaving an opening for uke to counter or strike you.

Mary Eastland
01-29-2014, 06:46 AM
Last night in class Ron stressed again how leading was not about running around with your arm extended for uke to catch....I got that the idea was not about leading uke by the nose but by connecting with his body, mind and energy.

Nage can take uke's choices away by being fully present and moving in the void of the combined energy to create the harmony of a throw.

If that sounds like aiki bunny I understand. It really is a feeling that is hard to describe yet I fully understand it because as uke my legs go away and I no am able to stand up. As nage I can feel the precise moment of when uke no longer has their balance and can be easily thrown.