Banned from Aikido...

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[john2054]

Because of me saying i wanted to 'street fight' with this bird on the net. Probably for the best?

[Brian Gillaspie]

Just curious as to what type of discussion you are expecting. Are you asking if your banishment was justified?

[robin_jet_alt]

How can you be banned from aikido? Your school might have banned you, but there are others. I'm sure you would be welcome to train with us, unless you did something to annoy sensei ;)

[Campbell]

Because of me saying i wanted to 'street fight' with this bird on the net. Probably for the best?

bird on the net?

[ramenboy]

How can you be banned from aikido? Your school might have banned you, but there are others. I'm sure you would be welcome to train with us, unless you did something to annoy sensei ;)

I was gonna say something similar.... Banned from your dojo /club, maybe. But not aikido.

Go to another dojo maybe

Many aikido folk in their younger days went out to 'test' their aikido

[john2054]

Hi people thanks for your kind replies. Well the good news is that I have talked with the chief sensei who has asked me to take some time out and then reconsider joining in 5-6 months. So all is not lost. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AgeHSvzRL.M7OzY53GQPZRKzFQx.;_ylv=3?qid=20140115101452AAoHDsShttp://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AvdB0aUfcgZBN6D.b2znZAyzFQx.;_ylv=3?qid=20140116143141AA57BsQ

[Janet Rosen]

(sigh)

[Eva Antonia]

Hi, this made me laugh.
Neither "some lessons in krav maga" nor an "aikido yellow belt" will be decisive for winning a fight. So if you do/ did this street fight, the winner would have won because of sheer force, velocity, brutality, biting/ ball kicking or whatever, but not thanks to superior martial arts skills.
I wouldn't see any reason to ban someone due to a "fight for fun", but maybe there is a reason for banning in making Internet publicity for this fight and linking it to questionable aikido skills?

I'd just ignore this type of challenge, and if you're really interested in seeing how far your aikido takes you against some other's krav maga, go to MMA or similar training and see what it's worth.

Best,

Eva

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Hi people thanks for your kind replies. Well the good news is that I have talked with the chief sensei who has asked me to take some time out and then reconsider joining in 5-6 months. So all is not lost.
You could spend these 5-6 months training a combat sport.

[Mary Eastland]

chirp

[Brian Gillaspie]

So you want to "fight" someone because they think they are a better fighter than you. Do you challenge everyone who thinks they may be more skilled at something than you? If you do I'm afraid you're going to be busy for a while because there is always someone out there who will think they are better than you at some activity (martial arts, swimming, running, basket weaving, etc.).

You also mentioned fighting without hurting each other which mean some rules come into play. If there are rules you are really not fighting. All you are doing at that point is seeing who is better performing under those rules.

I don't know you or your instructor but based on this discussion in my opinion if you can't let go of your ego it sounds like the dojo you were at may not be a good fit for you.

[lbb]

Hey, UK folks, clue me in. In the United States, there's a widely mistaken belief that two people can simply decide to get in a fight, and it's all fine because they agreed to do it. In fact, indulging in such foolishness puts you at risk for a charge of assault, and the fact that the other party agreed to the fight is no defense. That's just the penalty before anyone even gets hurt, mind you. As soon as someone else does, you're either on the receiving end, or you're looking at additional criminal and civil penalties. Is the situation vastly different in the UK, so that people can simply go about challenging each other to fights, and as long as the other party says, "OK!" everybody gets to sleep at home that night?

[Michael Douglas]

Because of ...
:D
I'm banned from Pizza.

Its a worldwide ban, not just my local outlets. Consider yourself lucky.

[Malicat]

You know, it's amazing. I'm 3 years in with a bit over 1000 hours in to my Aikido training, and I have recently come to the conclusion that if someone took a swing at me, I have a better than even chance of getting out of the way and not getting hit. Maybe I'm just a slow learner?

[john2054]

Hi everyone. I'm banned from the club for the time being at least. Like i said above, i had no intention of hurting the above mentioned parties, but to be quite honest with you this has all blown up out of proportion (into some kind of red tiger). If i'm not allowed to do Aikido quite frankly it's their loss. With my degree and mental health issues an ongoing concern, i do have other priorities you know?

[Chris Li]

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with two people rolling around and trying it out by mutual consent. From the lineage on the website of the dojo in question I know for a fact that their instructor Shigeho Tanaka did just that. So did Morihei Ueshiba, Sokaku Takeda, and just about everybody from that generation. What exactly is the problem?

Best,

Chris

[ramenboy]

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with two people rolling around and trying it out by mutual consent. From the lineage on the website of the dojo in question I know for a fact that their instructor Shigeho Tanaka did just that. So did Morihei Ueshiba, Sokaku Takeda, and just about everybody from that generation. What exactly is the problem?

Best,

Chris

my point exactly...i remember reading that gozo shioda also did this...

[James Sawers]

Perhaps because the "bird" in question is female (and there is no mention of her rank/qualifications) to engage in such activity (or, if she even wants to). Also, I thought this type of "dojo storming" went out in the 60s....??

Seems that there may be more at issue here than first indicated to be "banned" from aikido.....

[john2054]

yeah true bird=female

however in my defence i'd like to say that this young woman was under the impression that she was a lot better than me, whereas i consider mma and krav-ma as to being subferior to aiki training, and hence i thought i had a chance. also this person in question told me that she had numerous degrees whereas i am training for my first.

i think the issue at stake here is that i put this on the web, and it got back to my clubs number two. who gave me a roasting. im really not bothered and big deal. listen ive got mental illness. ive been in hospitals where you CAN'T get away with talking like this in front of the staff. trust me it's like water of a ducks back.

I'm reading les mis by victor hugo, and for not the first time in my life i can relate to jean valjean after he escapes the galleys in the first book or two of that novel.

[James Sawers]

yeah true bird=female

however in my defence i'd like to say that this young woman was under the impression that she was a lot better than me, whereas i consider mma and krav-ma as to being subferior to aiki training, and hence i thought i had a chance. also this person in question told me that she had numerous degrees whereas i am training for my first.

i think the issue at stake here is that i put this on the web, and it got back to my clubs number two. who gave me a roasting. im really not bothered and big deal. listen ive got mental illness. ive been in hospitals where you CAN'T get away with talking like this in front of the staff. trust me it's like water of a ducks back.

I'm reading les mis by victor hugo, and for not the first time in my life i can relate to jean valjean after he escapes the galleys in the first book or two of that novel.

Actually, there is no defense here.......the fact that you are not really bothered by this is telling in itself, and should be a red flag for you. Listen to your senior club members as to what is considered appropriate aikido/dojo behavior. Let them be your guide.

[Hilary]

If you named your school or affiliation publicly, then you are a bad boy, do not drag your dojo or sensei into your cat fight; it is rude and disrespectful. And even if you have not named them, in the internet age your affiliation will likely be revealed and well…your sensei ends up having to explain his student’s actions.

Neither of you are likely skilled at the arts you have been trained in, you are beginners, and that is a recipe for disaster. Back in my kempo days the most dangerous students were the green belts (in that system half way to shodan), because they had finally figured out how to deliver power, but did not yet have control. A street fight ehh, with fingers in the eyes, joint breaks via locks, strikes and throws, head butts, incisors to the carotid or ear (a full Tyson) when close? And on your part you going to pull her joints apart or whip out a break fall shionage?

As Chris Li and other have pointed out, testing your technology is a time honored tradition in many circles. You are not ready of that, the fact that this bubbled up at all indicates that both of you have a little ego problem. That she thinks her art is superior to yours is irrelevant, she can think what she wants, you don’t have to get caught up in the monkey dance. That you have says volumes to your state of mind. Chill you are a student.

[Krystal Locke]

Hey, UK folks, clue me in. In the United States, there's a widely mistaken belief that two people can simply decide to get in a fight, and it's all fine because they agreed to do it. In fact, indulging in such foolishness puts you at risk for a charge of assault, and the fact that the other party agreed to the fight is no defense. That's just the penalty before anyone even gets hurt, mind you. As soon as someone else does, you're either on the receiving end, or you're looking at additional criminal and civil penalties. Is the situation vastly different in the UK, so that people can simply go about challenging each other to fights, and as long as the other party says, "OK!" everybody gets to sleep at home that night?

Yup, that's a super-common urban legend in my state and profession. Nope, folks cant just choose to fight in public. Least not in my state. Off the top, a mutual public fight would be disturbing the peace. Probably get some assault charges as well, Just yelling threats at someone can get an assault charge. Self-defense claims get seriously muddled in mutual combat situations. One up conventions also get really messy when folks try to claim mutual combat.

Better solution. Dont fight.

[Krystal Locke]

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with two people rolling around and trying it out by mutual consent. From the lineage on the website of the dojo in question I know for a fact that their instructor Shigeho Tanaka did just that. So did Morihei Ueshiba, Sokaku Takeda, and just about everybody from that generation. What exactly is the problem?

Best,

Chris

Did they throw down publicly, or within a dojo or some sort of sanctioned event? Did they break the laws of their place and time? Should they have participated in such thing? Has society changed a lot over the last several decades?

I'd just invite the lady to come train with me for a while. That way, no fighting, and everybody learns. If what I like to do suits her, great. If what I do is beneath her skills and abilities, I learn something. If what she does is not up to the dojo's snuff, we've got a new student, I've got a friend, and Bob's your uncle....

It is hardly ever a single incident will get a person sent to the sin bin. Especially in a dojo.

[Janet Rosen]

Actually, there is no defense here.......the fact that you are not really bothered by this is telling in itself, and should be a red flag for you. Listen to your senior club members as to what is considered appropriate aikido/dojo behavior. Let them be your guide.

Yep. The late Gayle Fillman Sensei was known to remove people from membership short term or not allow them to rank if their dojo OR public community behavior was egregious. Having trained at other dojos where people got away with all kinds of nonsense I found this a refreshing stand on the role of ethics in budo.

[hughrbeyer]

It is hardly ever a single incident will get a person sent to the sin bin.

This.

[Chris Li]

Did they throw down publicly, or within a dojo or some sort of sanctioned event? Did they break the laws of their place and time? Should they have participated in such thing? Has society changed a lot over the last several decades?

I've heard of both of the first, and of course yes to the second, I'd imagine. Should they have is another discussion, but it's kind of hypocritical chastising people for doing the same things that your teachers were famous for doing, don't you think?

Plenty of folks today still roll around and try each other out - just look at MMA.

Best,

Chris

[john2054]

I went swimming today with my family. Benefits of the pool = no idiots calling me out.

Negatives: no-one there to teach me the names of moves.

12 lengths=i'm tired now.

I don't mind doing martial arts, i quite like it actually. i just don't relish the moments when i am taken aside by a senior and given a bollocking. Like i said already, I don't think i deserve that.

OKAY?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[George S. Ledyard]

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with two people rolling around and trying it out by mutual consent. From the lineage on the website of the dojo in question I know for a fact that their instructor Shigeho Tanaka did just that. So did Morihei Ueshiba, Sokaku Takeda, and just about everybody from that generation. What exactly is the problem?

Best,

Chris

I think his teacher has probably made the correct decision, at least based on my impression from these posts. One, I think that the desire to "fight" runs counter to what the Founder intended for the art. While O-Sensei clearly wanted his students to be competent martial artists, he chewed them out at length when they went out and got in fights just to test drive their skills. He said such contests destroyed the "spirit of Aikido".

Two, if you wish to test out your skills, you do so with someone with whom you are friends who does another style and you can mutually play. If you turn something into a real contest, someone is going to get hurt. Setting up a contest with someone when it is about who is going to win requires a different attitude. Winning without hurting the other person requires either a very high degree of skill, one that you don't have in the early Dan ranks, or incompetence on the part of the opponent. If the opponent in question really has some skills in MMA etc, prevailing will almost certainly require creating some level of dysfunction. It is incorrect to assume things work in a true fight the way they do in the dojo. This is why we have uke and nage and we train using a free flowing kata system. Uke is taught to let go and take his ukemi when things are untenable. In a fight, the opponent is going to hang in there until he / she is unable to contend i.e. unconscious, injured, or dead. No one goes into a fight or contest thinking he's "uke".

I would guess that the teacher in question is trying to deliver a message about attitude more than anything else and I also think that message isn't getting through.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with two people rolling around and trying it out by mutual consent. From the lineage on the website of the dojo in question I know for a fact that their instructor Shigeho Tanaka did just that. So did Morihei Ueshiba, Sokaku Takeda, and just about everybody from that generation. What exactly is the problem?

Best,

Chris

They could find they lack real usable skills... that is the problem.

[Chris Li]

I think his teacher has probably made the correct decision, at least based on my impression from these posts. One, I think that the desire to "fight" runs counter to what the Founder intended for the art. While O-Sensei clearly wanted his students to be competent martial artists, he chewed them out at length when they went out and got in fights just to test drive their skills. He said such contests destroyed the "spirit of Aikido".

Two, if you wish to test out your skills, you do so with someone with whom you are friends who does another style and you can mutually play. If you turn something into a real contest, someone is going to get hurt. Setting up a contest with someone when it is about who is going to win requires a different attitude. Winning without hurting the other person requires either a very high degree of skill, one that you don't have in the early Dan ranks, or incompetence on the part of the opponent. If the opponent in question really has some skills in MMA etc, prevailing will almost certainly require creating some level of dysfunction. It is incorrect to assume things work in a true fight the way they do in the dojo. This is why we have uke and nage and we train using a free flowing kata system. Uke is taught to let go and take his ukemi when things are untenable. In a fight, the opponent is going to hang in there until he / she is unable to contend i.e. unconscious, injured, or dead. No one goes into a fight or contest thinking he's "uke".

I would guess that the teacher in question is trying to deliver a message about attitude more than anything else and I also think that message isn't getting through.

There was also an ura to the public face of those scoldings, as there often is in Japan, and I note that he never banned anybody because of those incidents (some people were actually praised - in private).

Also, I can think of a number of cases where this kind of thing went on with his tacit approval - or at least, his silence, as long as it wasn't made into a public matter.

As it often goes in Japan - the speech doesn't always follow the behavior. I think it's a mistake to listen to a statement made in a Japanese cultural context and expect that western cultural behavior will follow.

When Ueshiba sent folks out to take challenges I'm pretty sure that he didn't expect folks to "play". ;)

OTOH, the OP (although he used the word "fight") seems to be pretty much talking about just that - a mutually agreed upon contest, playing.

I could see the instructors advising against it (I would), but I wouldn't do any more unless there are issues that we haven't seen here.

As to making the name of the dojo public - well, that's the way it goes, you can't tell people in a publicly run class not to say that they attend that class. If he were publicly claiming to represent the dojo in some way I might see the problem, but as far as I can see that hasn't happened.

Best,

Chris

[robin_jet_alt]

To me, the issue is not what the OP does, it is that he is representing his dojo. The minute he publicly mentioned his dojo, he started representing them. Firstly, I'm pretty sure the dojo doesn't want to be represented by those who go around getting into fights, but more importantly, if the dojo were to be represented in a fight, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't pick a rank beginner to do it. The OP needs to realise that 6 months is not a long time to train and that a "yellow belt" (what is that, anyway, 5th kyu?) does not imply any sort of ability. What would happen if you lost the 'fight'? I imagine that would not make your dojo look good. When Ueshiba gave 'tacit approval' to his students doing this sort of thing, I'm pretty sure those students had a reasonable amount of ability beforehand and that he was pretty sure they would represent themselves (and him) fairly well. The OP implied earlier that he thought he would win because aikido was "better" than krav maga etc. That is another mistake. I'm sure everyone on this forum, including myself, have a great appreciation for aikido, but when it comes to a fight, the amount and intensity of the training, combined with the innate physical ability of the person has much more impact on the outcome of a fight than what martial art they practice. So, this girl had the temerity to think she is a better martial artist than you? So what? I think I'm a better martial artist than you. I think everyone who has replied to this thread so far is a better martial artist than you. But, I'm not even close to the best at my dojo, so I'm not going to represent them in a fight with you. If you want to prove that you're better, come to the dojo and you can have it out with whomever sensei picks (probably himself, but if you look like enough fun, you might get a few other volunteers). If you want to prove that you are better than someone who practices krav maga, go to her dojo, see her training, and if you are not convinced, challenge her sensei (without mentioning where you train). If you want to prove that the aikido that you practice is better, get someone with experience and ability to prove it. That is not you.



I don't mind doing martial arts, i quite like it actually. i just don't relish the moments when i am taken aside by a senior and given a bollocking. Like i said already, I don't think i deserve that.

OKAY?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

No. It's not okay, and yes you do deserve it.

[mathewjgano]

OTOH, the OP (although he used the word "fight") seems to be pretty much talking about just that - a mutually agreed upon contest, playing.
Not just "fight," but "street fight." It was a poor choice in words, even though he may have only meant it to be a friendly bit of sparring (he did say as much and did describe wanting to make sure no one comes to any real harm), but I can see a school being a bit nervous about having their name associated with it. In litigious America, I'd certainly be nervous about the potential hassles.
I have no problem with people testing each other under most circumstances, but this didn't sit well with me as I was reading it either...it's hard for me to shake certain connotations related to a "street fight" brought about from someone talking @#$%.
Whatever the case, I hope the OP bears it in mind as one more lesson offered by his teachers to add to the list of things to consider and is able to keep training in the way he enjoys.

As relates to the laws in some places, I bring you Phoenix Jones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teBnJYO0SSY

[Chris Li]

Not just "fight," but "street fight." It was a poor choice in words, even though he may have only meant it to be a friendly bit of sparring (he did say as much and did describe wanting to make sure no one comes to any real harm), but I can see a school being a bit nervous about having their name associated with it. In litigious America, I'd certainly be nervous about the potential hassles.
I have no problem with people testing each other under most circumstances, but this didn't sit well with me as I was reading it either...it's hard for me to shake certain connotations related to a "street fight" brought about from someone talking @#$%.
Whatever the case, I hope the OP bears it in mind as one more lesson offered by his teachers to add to the list of things to consider and is able to keep training in the way he enjoys.

As relates to the laws in some places, I bring you Phoenix Jones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teBnJYO0SSY

Well, I think that the way it was presented was ill-advised, but I don't think that the fact of a match is anything to get that excited about (and that seems to have been a major sticking point for most folks). I didn't think that he presented himself in any was as a representative of any particular school, except to say that he tooks some classes there. At most a discussion about appearances and discretion - I certainly wouldn't ban anybody for what is currently under discussion.

When a Karate guy talked smack to Gozo Shioda he took him on (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/aikido-judo-gozo-shioda-masahiko-kimura/), damaged him - and then got promoted to 9th dan by Morihei Ueshiba ten years later. He was also one of the teachers of Shigeho Tanaka - who was the teacher of the folks at the dojo in question.

Morihiro Saito used to go into town and rumble with the Yakuza, then spend the rest of the night drinking - Saito always said the Morihei Ueshiba knew full well what was going on.

These things happen.

Best,

Chris

[Brian Gillaspie]

I understand why an instructor would not want his student challenging people. It's his school so he gets to make the call. It would be interesting to hear the instructor's side of the story. If this is the only thing the op has done to upset the instructor after a few months training I'm surprised he would be immediately banned from the dojo.

I just have a feeling we are not getting the whole story.

[Chris Li]

I understand why an instructor would not want his student challenging people. It's his school so he gets to make the call. It would be interesting to hear the instructor's side of the story. If this is the only thing the op has done to upset the instructor after a few months training I'm surprised he would be immediately banned from the dojo.

I just have a feeling we are not getting the whole story.

One rarely does.

Of course, people don't want their students to go out and challenge people, but since most of them did it themselves it seems hypocritical to get too excited about it.

Best,

Chris

[Mary Eastland]

I went swimming today with my family. Benefits of the pool = no idiots calling me out.

Negatives: no-one there to teach me the names of moves.

12 lengths=i'm tired now.

I don't mind doing martial arts, i quite like it actually. i just don't relish the moments when i am taken aside by a senior and given a bollocking. Like i said already, I don't think i deserve that.

OKAY?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

She went from a "bird on the net" to an "idiot". I hope you get to keep training so you can see that what other people do, say, think or wear has nothing to do with your response. You are responsible for that.

[john2054]

OK im on the verge of being banned for good. i dont know whats happening at the moment. sometimes in moments of rage i say things i later come to regret. and one of the advantages of not being in hospital is that these actions dont have immediate direct consequences. fair play if i had been in a fight and hit someone, then i could be charged with assault. but as it happens i only suggested fighting. make of that what you will. now im in a great pile of s£$%. So what. I can move cities, change my facial expression and join another dojo. Is that really such a big deal?:circle: :square: :triangle:

PS when i said no idiots calling me out i was referring to on the net. Not 'her'!

[Mary Eastland]

OK im on the verge of being banned for good. i dont know whats happening at the moment. sometimes in moments of rage i say things i later come to regret. and one of the advantages of not being in hospital is that these actions dont have immediate direct consequences. fair play if i had been in a fight and hit someone, then i could be charged with assault. but as it happens i only suggested fighting. make of that what you will. now im in a great pile of s£$%. So what. I can move cities, change my facial expression and join another dojo. Is that really such a big deal?:circle: :square: :triangle:

PS when i said no idiots calling me out i was referring to on the net. Not 'her'!

You started a thread about it. Did you forget that?:D

[Campbell]

This post isn't going to help you. To be completely honest you might be better off asking an admin to delete it because nothing good is going to come from it.

In the future you might want to try and be less confrontational. And honestly you're probably going to continue to have the same issues no matter where you go if you don't relax a bit.

That said, I wish the best for you.

[Michael Douglas]

... So what. I can move cities, change my facial expression and join another dojo. Is that really such a big deal?
You know ... there's no need to disguise yourself,
many Aikido schools don't talk to each other much, especially across factions.
You say you've only been temp-banned from your current dojo,
if you really really feel the need to immediately continue Aikido just join somewhere else ...

On a side-note, can I have this word please? ;
... whereas i consider mma and krav-ma as to being subferior to aiki training, and hence i thought i had a chance..

[PeterR]

Let's call it what it is.

I'll bet good money that the real problem is disruptive behavior within the dojo not one particular incident.

and for the same reason I doubt very much that the teacher in question actually issued a blanket ban on Aikido.

[mathewjgano]

...sometimes in moments of rage i say things i later come to regret.

John, therein lies one potentially important avenue to work on. Having known people who had a hard time expressing their anger in a way that others could handle, I know it can be frustrating to deal with the responses. It can quickly spiral out of control.
From what I've been taught about Aikido, one view is that it is ultimately about self-correction. As a general principle, you start by working on yourself, then progress out from there. I think the founder said something to the effect of, "first work on yourself, then your household, then your country, etc." Again, it's just a general principle, but the idea is that whatever our personal situation is, it will affect everything around it and that by working on that starting point, our situations can gradually get better. The martial art aspect is there to serve as a catalyst for building yourself into as capable an individual as possible. It's certainly a central role, don't get me wrong, but if you think your actions are shaping things in a way that don't fit your goals, that's the first place to start your training...at least, for whatever it's worth, that's how I tend to think of things.
Good luck and good training!

[lbb]

Well, I think that the way it was presented was ill-advised, but I don't think that the fact of a match is anything to get that excited about (and that seems to have been a major sticking point for most folks).

It's not legal, Chris. As Zonker Harris once said, "It may or may not be wrong, but it sure is against the law."

[Chris Li]

It's not legal, Chris. As Zonker Harris once said, "It may or may not be wrong, but it sure is against the law."

A lot of things aren't legal - if it's outside the dojo it's also outside my scope of responsibility. Also I disagree that what he was talking about was necessarily illegal - the phrasing was unfortunate, but as I understand it what he was talking about was basically a cross-art match by mutual consent - which is certainly legal.

Best,

Chris

[PeterR]

It's not legal, Chris. As Zonker Harris once said, "It may or may not be wrong, but it sure is against the law."

Really?

[lbb]

A lot of things aren't legal - if it's outside the dojo it's also outside my scope of responsibility. Also I disagree that what he was talking about was necessarily illegal - the phrasing was unfortunate, but as I understand it what he was talking about was basically a cross-art match by mutual consent - which is certainly legal.

I'm not sure that's true. Mutual consent is irrelevant -- you cannot consent to assault in the United States. There is a specific exception for sporting events such as boxing, but I question if it extends to unregulated "hey let's get together and punch each other" behavior. That comes awfully close to "hey let's walk out behind this bar and punch each other", and that's definitely not legal.

[Sojourner]

I am not sure that I would go along with your line of thinking that in this case MMA and Krav are "inferior" to Aikido? Whilst both may be modern, so is Aikido by comparison, Krav also shares liniage with Aikido in its formation. I am pretty sure I can dial up any you tube video of someone using one martial art to overcome another, - it proves nothing however. The only person you need to compete with is yourself.

[Chris Li]

I'm not sure that's true. Mutual consent is irrelevant -- you cannot consent to assault in the United States. There is a specific exception for sporting events such as boxing, but I question if it extends to unregulated "hey let's get together and punch each other" behavior. That comes awfully close to "hey let's walk out behind this bar and punch each other", and that's definitely not legal.

Well, people have matches all the time in private venues - MMA schools, for example, and it's certainly legal. Of course, there are tussles that go beyond that, but I think that automatically assuming that it's illegal would be mistaken.

FWIW - this kind of thing goes on all the time, I've seen it, I've even done it, and it's generally harmless. Ueshiba did it, Tohei did it, Shioda did it. Maybe it's not such a horrible offense after all...

Best,

Chris

[lbb]

Well, people have matches all the time in private venues - MMA schools, for example, and it's certainly legal. Of course, there are tussles that go beyond that, but I think that automatically assuming that it's illegal would be mistaken.

FWIW - this kind of thing goes on all the time, I've seen it, I've even done it, and it's generally harmless. Ueshiba did it, Tohei did it, Shioda did it. Maybe it's not such a horrible offense after all...


I'm not going to belabor the point, Chris -- I've made it already. I will simply say in conclusion that I think it's unwise to use movies and historical anecdotes from a different country as a guide to what's prudent to do here and now.

[Chris Li]

I'm not going to belabor the point, Chris -- I've made it already. I will simply say in conclusion that I think it's unwise to use movies and historical anecdotes from a different country as a guide to what's prudent to do here and now.

I didn't cite any movies, and I never argued about prudency - but legality is a different matter. And some of the examples I used came from right here in the United States.

Best,

Chris

[Carl Thompson]

Whatever is going on with the OP, it seems that there are too many unclear issues to give any appropriate advice or solution on this forum. However, some interesting related discussion has developed.

The idea of whether or not two people can legally get together and kick the s#%t out of each other is an interesting one. I'm from the same country as the OP and in my experience, this is not the case, although it can be a grey area. I had some acquaintances (friends of friends) who fell out and had a nasty habit of wrecking bars as well as each other in their feud. It was causing a nasty atmosphere among that particular circle when both were present, since it pretty much spelled a spoiled evening, collateral damage from restraining lunatics, hospital visits and explanations to bar-owners and police. Eventually they were told to sort it out properly and since most of their peers were Muay Thai or MMA practitioners, it was decided that they should do it in an organised, but private duel with proper rules to ensure safety and keep the rozzers (police) at bay. It was very interesting reading my friend's review of the match. The main thing was, the police didn't get involved and if they had, I doubt they would have been particularly bothered. If one of them had died maybe things would have been different, but barring a severe maiming, this seems to me like the kind of event that would probably never make it to court. I disliked both guys anyway since I'd had run-ins with them myself, but in any case, there was a winner and although they never became best buddies or anything, they stopped quarreling and agreed to get on thereafter.

In contrast, I know a guy who put another in intensive care after attacking him with a pool cue in a bar because he was rude about his girlfriend. The whole event was captured on CCTV and for a while, it looked like he'd be spending a reasonable stretch in prison, despite the other guy saying he didn't want to press charges and "had wanted the fight". Luckily, the police "lost" the footage.

As Chris Li pointed out, many of the founder's students engaged in (what I would regard as) more civilized versions of what I described above. Osensei created aikido in Iwama which was, and remains to an extent, a fairly rough town. The first aikido students got into many brawls on purpose to test their skills and it didn't require much effort on their part. Where sake was drunk, there would be trouble and when patrons saw the likes of Saito Shihan and Isoyama Sensei rolling up, they would drop the noren curtain to indicate the establishment was closed. Even today, many regard that time as "the good old days" although I think the main thing that has changed is that spending time in a holding cell as a grandfather is kind of embarrassing. Iwama is a bit sleepier now (there are far fewer bars) but it remains quite rough and ready.

Carl

[Beholder]

The idea of whether or not two people can legally get together and kick the s#%t out of each other is an interesting one. I'm from the same country as the OP and in my experience, this is not the case, although it can be a grey area.

[snip]

Carl

Hmm, well then. In the UK, a rather infamous case (the "Spanner Case") is sometimes used to demonstrate that the courts have ruled that consent in itself does not mean assault is lawful:

Full ruling of R v Brown (http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/1992/7.html) <-- for the brave :freaky:

Wikipedia summary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Brown)

A couple of key points that make this relevant: the charges were brought by the crown, that is, not because the "victims" had changed their mind about consent (they hadn't); and actually the ruling expressly mentions cutting the skin… which is at least curious, from a moral point of view.

Note that this judgement remains controversial, and if you do look at the full text (and search for "fighting" for example) you can see that the lords were aware of the potential implications of the judgement relating to things outside of the, um, particular activity that this case was originally about (i.e., people up to something that sounds to me even weirder than aikido). It's a handy case to cite in conversations in which even the merest whiff of a smokescreen of machismo honour fights is being thrown up to suggest you can consent to being beaten up. Basically, in the UK, you can't, and perhaps more usefully it shows that the law often isn't interested in what you want ;-)

Yours
Dave

[john2054]

The problem with this argument is that i had no intention of hitting the woman. And if she had hit me there is no way the police would have charged her. I would have been seen as the blame of the fight, being the man. But like i said, no charges would have been pressed. it is a hypothetical argument. i wanted a scrap but the man said no. and no means NO! If it had been forced, then a forced result would have happened. Aikido teaches self defence. that means block when hit. or move out of the way. I cannot win a fight against the world if no-one is on my side.

[Michael Douglas]

The problem with this argument is that i had no intention of hitting the woman. .
Well then :straightf Grasshopper, you had already lost.

"Hit first! Then twisty!" I'm sure my translation is a bit off (Chris Li?) but O'Sensei said that, didn't he? :o

[Brian Gillaspie]

The problem with this argument is that i had no intention of hitting the woman. And if she had hit me there is no way the police would have charged her. I would have been seen as the blame of the fight, being the man. But like i said, no charges would have been pressed. it is a hypothetical argument. i wanted a scrap but the man said no. and no means NO! If it had been forced, then a forced result would have happened. Aikido teaches self defence. that means block when hit. or move out of the way. I cannot win a fight against the world if no-one is on my side.

I would not recommend fighting the world because it's pretty big and the odds are against you:D . I also think that some people are on your side in regards to this situations. Ultimately this is your decision to make. You are both adults so if you want to have the fight with the girl then we can't stop you but just be ready to accept any potential consequences that come along with it.

Have you explained to your instructor that you would like to test your aikido? Maybe he can come up with a workable solution for you. I can't speak regarding legal issues but in my opinion doing this in a dojo (with your instructor's consent) with other people around is better than going out on your own to do it. At least with other people around they can step in if things go to far.

I've gone to my instructor many times and have asked "how would you handle something like this" and I've had students coming to me asking the same type of questions. We've always worked through it to figure out a solution, even if that means finding a wrestler, a BJJ practitioner, or a boxer to come in and work with us.

[Dan Richards]

Aikido teaches self defence. that means block when hit. or move out of the way.

There are no "blocks" in aikido.

[Rob Watson]

With my degree and mental health issues an ongoing concern, i do have other priorities you know?

listen ive got mental illness. ive been in hospitals where you CAN'T get away with talking like this in front of the staff. trust me it's like water of a ducks back.

The path is wide and long all the while filled with obstacles and distractions. In the timeless words of Pat Morita "Concentrate. Focus. Wax on - wax off." It takes a while to get it right.

Where is the light at the end of the tunnel when there is no tunnel?

[PeterR]

There are no "blocks" in aikido.
Sure there are.

[john2054]

Well, in case i hadn't mentioned already, the fight is off. Actually i have deleted her from my facebook profile, and banned her. Fini

As for doing it in a dojo, ive already suggested she come to mine, and she said no. OKAY? As for there being no blocks in Aikido, well you will probably say that there are no slaps either. But then if you go into the real world, outside your 'do' then what you may find is a little different, okay?

[lbb]

\
As for doing it in a dojo, ive already suggested she come to mine, and she said no. OKAY?

I don't think that's what Brian was suggesting. He suggested simply telling your sensei that you'd like to test your aikido, and listen to the solutions that he/she proposes. I believe the idea is that your sensei may be able to provide you with something that will give you feedback on your skill without the risks of getting into a throw-down.

I know you feel very put-upon right now, but people really are trying to tell you (with the best of intentions) why challenging someone to a fight on the internet can lead to very real problems, despite anyone's opinion about whether it's OK or whether you SHOULD be able to do it. There are people in your country and mine who think you should be able to punch the lights out of someone who looks at you sideways, and while they are free to have that opinion, they are not free of the consequences of that action. People are trying to help you.

Here's a link to something very intelligent on the subject that was written...wow. Was it really over 20 years ago? Anyway, written by a friend of mine, waaaay back when. It's called "High price of living at home" by Jeff Pipkins (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.martial-arts/%22live$20at$20home%22%7Csort:relevance/rec.martial-arts/vkkVA59KbJ8/OxQ2AmuDyUYJ). Recommended reading for everyone who's struggling with this subject.

[Campbell]

Ok so I have a quick question.

How do two people fight using aikido? I see a lot of people saying that "I see nothing wrong with letting them test each other" and stuff like that but doesn't someone have to be the aggressor?

Didn't Morihei Ueshiba make Aikido to not have attacks?

So how would this fight take place....a staring contest? I don't get it...

[Belt_Up]

Shomen uchi, yoko menuchi, chudan tsuki, etc are all attacks.

/not to mention the "Aikido is whatever-percent-I-made-up-just-now atemi." line

[Chris Li]

Ok so I have a quick question.

How do two people fight using aikido? I see a lot of people saying that "I see nothing wrong with letting them test each other" and stuff like that but doesn't someone have to be the aggressor?

Didn't Morihei Ueshiba make Aikido to not have attacks?

So how would this fight take place....a staring contest? I don't get it...

That was a popular line at one time, but less so once more information came out, although some people still train that way. Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido, even in the later years, was quite aggressive and contained quite a bit of striking.

Since you've apparently decided on an ASU school - here's Saotome demonstrating a little of something like that:

http://youtu.be/MsZk7Eha1Us

Best,

Chris

[Campbell]

That was a popular line at one time, but less so once more information came out, although some people still train that way. Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido, even in the later years, was quite aggressive and contained quite a bit of striking.

Since you've apparently decided on an ASU school - here's Saotome demonstrating a little of something like that:

http://youtu.be/MsZk7Eha1Us

Best,

Chris

Awesome ty

[Alex Megann]

Since you've apparently decided on an ASU school - here's Saotome demonstrating a little of something like that:

http://youtu.be/MsZk7Eha1Us


Interesting clip - I enjoyed it, One thing that struck me is that, although Saotome Sensei has often been described as a student of Yamaguchi Sensei, he shows little sign of that, at least in this demonstration. He moves very differently from Yamaguchi, and his kamae and zanshin are also much more - let's say - obviously "martial". Do you know if he ever studied karate?

Alex

[Chris Li]

Interesting clip - I enjoyed it, One thing that struck me is that, although Saotome Sensei has often been described as a student of Yamaguchi Sensei, he shows little sign of that, at least in this demonstration. He moves very differently from Yamaguchi, and his kamae and zanshin are also much more - let's say - obviously "martial". Do you know if he ever studied karate?

Alex

Not that I know of - or at least, not seriously.

Best,

Chris

[john2054]

Has anyone got any workable suggestions as how i can get back into this club?

[Campbell]

Has anyone got any workable suggestions as how i can get back into this club?

I don't know how anyone here would help you. I didn't read the entire thread but have you tried talking to the sensei to see what could be done?

Honestly he must have felt like he had good reason to remove you if he asked you to leave. It's a business for him as well so with you not there he's losing $$ also. So I don't know...maybe you could dabble in something else while you're away? A different Martial Art maybe?

[john2054]

Hi Brandon, I really can't see myself doing another martial art. Not to mention i've been banned from more than one other club around here? I may be able to return after a grace period, or failing that there IS another Aiki club in the city that i may be able to try. I guess I'll just have to wait for the time being....

[Mary Eastland]

Hi Brandon, I really can't see myself doing another martial art. Not to mention i've been banned from more than one other club around here? I may be able to return after a grace period, or failing that there IS another Aiki club in the city that i may be able to try. I guess I'll just have to wait for the time being....

Sounds like there is more to the story. How have you managed to get banned from more that one dojo?

[lbb]

Has anyone got any workable suggestions as how i can get back into this club?

There isn't enough data to answer that question, but here are a few questions that may help you formulate a plan of action:


Was there any discussion when you got banned, or had there been any discussion leading up to it?
Do you understand the reasons why you were banned? Do you agree with it?
If you were to go back, what would change in order for you to remain there -- the dojo's rules/expectations, or your behavior? How would this change happen, and are you okay with it?

[Keith Larman]

Well, there's an old joke that when everyone around you seems to be a jerk, maybe you need to consider the possibility that they aren't the jerk... But this is one of those "one side of the story", lots omitted, and lots of rather trollish type statements. So carry on...

[Brian Gillaspie]

Only you and your instructor truly know why you are banned. Your instructor is the only one who can give you a workable suggestion.

[Campbell]

Well, there's an old joke that when everyone around you seems to be a jerk, maybe you need to consider the possibility that they aren't the jerk... But this is one of those "one side of the story", lots omitted, and lots of rather trollish type statements. So carry on...

That's what I was thinking...is he just jacking with everyone or what?

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Sounds like there is more to the story. How have you managed to get banned from more that one dojo?

Maybe this post (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=325307&postcount=52) can give some light about the issue.

[Campbell]

Maybe this post (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=325307&postcount=52) can give some light about the issue.

I see.

Well it's not the best situation. On one hand I'm sure the sensei would like to help you but on the other he has a business to run and students to protect.

I think you might just be best waiting it out, John. I don't see much other choice really. Take some time off and relax a bit...read some books.

And when you get back to class try and take it a bit easier and keep the drama away. :)

Best wishes to you, John. I hope it all works out for you.

[Darthcrane]

Well,

according to me the ban is justified due to the circumstances.
If you wanted to have this fight you were supposed just to do it and see what happens and keep the conclusions for yourself. No need to go bragging around at your dojo.

Or you could just invite her for a pizza and a beer, or for a movie :)

Luigi

[john2054]

To be honest I'm still not quite sure where I stand. Sure I am banned from one dan ranking, but i don't think he is the head of my club. So where does that leave me? At least, I understand most men like to band together, and ban the 'jackers' who clearly f$^ with their nice male female orientated view of the world. What's more Aikido teaches you to never attack first, so i don't know if it was because I insinuated that i would, or it got back to them that i have in the past, and so the ban stands. Aikido is not the be all and end all in my life. If it turns out that i can't go back to it, I have learnt a good ikkyo in this way. But it does still feel a little like a kick in the teeth after the years dedication and friends i have made at my club, and this is the way they repay me. like i said it wasnt the clubs topdog, but the number two that banned me. and i guess they wont like me washing my dirty linen in public. but to be quite honest with you i have been the number one internet troll/most wanted since over five years now. starting with martialartstalk.net across bullshido.net various other forums to finally here at aikiweb. There has been a decent amount of tolerance and respect shown me on this forum, but now the knee jerk /(oh he's a woman beater etc etc) reactions are beginning to kick in. Every one reading this has to ask themselvee within do they think that i am worthy of this treatment. And I have little doubt that a good deal will be against me. But a few friends is all i need to provide me with the emotional support to continue my journey. Both here and elsewhere. It was nice to think that I had my club on my side. But just as it is no longer 'my' club, so too yeah anyway you get the picture.

[lbb]

what the what?

[Brian Gillaspie]

Only you and your instructor truly know why you are banned. Your instructor is the only one who can give you a workable suggestion.

I'm just repeating my advice. Only He/She will decide if you can come back. It doesn't make a difference what me or anyone else on this forum thinks about the situation.

[robin_jet_alt]

To be honest I'm still not quite sure where I stand. Sure I am banned from one dan ranking, but i don't think he is the head of my club. So where does that leave me? At least, I understand most men like to band together, and ban the 'jackers' who clearly f$^ with their nice male female orientated view of the world. What's more Aikido teaches you to never attack first, so i don't know if it was because I insinuated that i would, or it got back to them that i have in the past, and so the ban stands. Aikido is not the be all and end all in my life. If it turns out that i can't go back to it, I have learnt a good ikkyo in this way. But it does still feel a little like a kick in the teeth after the years dedication and friends i have made at my club, and this is the way they repay me. like i said it wasnt the clubs topdog, but the number two that banned me. and i guess they wont like me washing my dirty linen in public. but to be quite honest with you i have been the number one internet troll/most wanted since over five years now. starting with martialartstalk.net across bullshido.net various other forums to finally here at aikiweb. There has been a decent amount of tolerance and respect shown me on this forum, but now the knee jerk /(oh he's a woman beater etc etc) reactions are beginning to kick in. Every one reading this has to ask themselvee within do they think that i am worthy of this treatment. And I have little doubt that a good deal will be against me. But a few friends is all i need to provide me with the emotional support to continue my journey. Both here and elsewhere. It was nice to think that I had my club on my side. But just as it is no longer 'my' club, so too yeah anyway you get the picture.

I don't think this is the reason. You might want to go through the comments on this thread again and re-think it.

[Rob Watson]

what the what?

I think it is all in his head ...

[Campbell]

Listen John, I think everyone here would love to help you but that fact is, no one on this board can do anything for you.

If you made a mistake and got removed from the dojo just sit your time out and return when you can.

But I think everyone here would probably support you to some degree. We all make mistakes...all of us.

[FusionMa]

Hi, ok so your Instructor or someone has banned you from Aikido. I do not know whether this is in general (which they cannot do) or just from their club (which they can do so long as you have broken a code of conduct or something); anyway your post states you were banned because you said you wanted to "street fight with a bird on the net".

1. Your post is somewhat ambiguous; you have left us with no true explanation of the account you are referring to and are expecting us to fill in the blanks and make a post based on the limited information you have provided. You need to give us the whole story. No one can truly make any kind of statement about this without the back info.
2. Regardless of the context in which you were speaking, it is a fairly common thing for a new student to the Martial Arts (i.e one who has not started their spiritual journey) to make statements such as the one you are referring to; you will learn that a street fight isn't something you want or will look forward to, but something that is in fact very distressing and negative on your life and others included in the altercation.
Finally 3. Before you make any posts, you should think about what they may be saying about you. Your comments in the forum will trigger a wide array of comments and thought, some of it positive and some not quite so much, what you post can and does believe it or not have an effect of people, like the ripples from a pebble dropped into water. You should consider what you are saying before you post it, a mindful post is far more respected and inclined to have a deeper and more meaningful conversation to it that everyone who reads truly will benefit from, rather than a misguided rant of a rash and lost individual who seems to be posting because they have nothing better to do.
All posts on here provide us with the opportunity to learn; I would not want anything to think I am trying to say this or any post was not welcome, but a post that has had even a small amount of thought considered towards it is richest in its yield.
I hope you find what you are looking for John Robinson, and if I can offer any guidance, I am but a message away. Peace be with you.

[Krystal Locke]

To be honest I'm still not quite sure where I stand. Sure I am banned from one dan ranking, but i don't think he is the head of my club. ......

John, if anything you say is true, then the first step to getting back on the mat has got to be a step into the psychiatrist's office. Seriously, if you are who you present here, get some real mental health care soon. You need it. This sort of drama is cycling around for you, and you know it doesn't end well. I am not being an ass or a bitch or anything but straight up honest with you. Go talk to a psychiatric professional.

[James Sawers]

Isn't there something called taryujiai, that is, matches between practitioners of different styles. Perhaps when you get back into the good graces of your club, you could advocate for this. This way you get to test your "skills" in a controlled and sanctioned manner.

[mickeygelum]

not to mention the "Aikido is whatever-percent-I-made-up-just-now atemi." line ...:D

[Krystal Locke]

Isn't there something called taryujiai, that is, matches between practitioners of different styles. Perhaps when you get back into the good graces of your club, you could advocate for this. This way you get to test your "skills" in a controlled and sanctioned manner.

There's always just becoming a cage fighter. There are plenty amateur opportunities around, but the business is a wreck.

[Campbell]

That was a popular line at one time, but less so once more information came out, although some people still train that way. Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido, even in the later years, was quite aggressive and contained quite a bit of striking.

Since you've apparently decided on an ASU school - here's Saotome demonstrating a little of something like that:

http://youtu.be/MsZk7Eha1Us

Best,

Chris

Hey Chris

The thing is I don't see Saotome sensei being the attacker in that video. It was a bit more aggressive towards the attacker with strikes and whatnot but still.

I just don't think Ueshiba would support some type of competition like what's proposed by some in this topic. Maybe I'm wrong but from what I have read he seemed to be opposed to such things.

Now don't get me wrong...I'm no Aikido scholar but I have read a few things here and there and if I remember correctly he was no fan of aggressiveness or competitions.

I don't know... :)

[Chris Li]

Hey Chris

The thing is I don't see Saotome sensei being the attacker in that video. It was a bit more aggressive towards the attacker with strikes and whatnot but still.

I just don't think Ueshiba would support some type of competition like what's proposed by some in this topic. Maybe I'm wrong but from what I have read he seemed to be opposed to such things.

Now don't get me wrong...I'm no Aikido scholar but I have read a few things here and there and if I remember correctly he was no fan of aggressiveness or competitions.

I don't know... :)

He was no fan of sporting contests - but we're not talking about sporting contests, are we? The record is clear that both he and his students often took on people in other arts. That has nothing to do with aggressiveness or competitions.

Best,

Chris

[Graham Farquhar]

He was no fan of sporting contests - but we're not talking about sporting contests, are we? The record is clear that both he and his students often took on people in other arts. That has nothing to do with aggressiveness or competitions.

Best,

Chris

This is the crux of the matter from the video! Wish i could be so eloquant! I am not a Satome student but I see what I see in his and his students Aikido! As to the OP well there is lots of advice been given Peter R has called it out!

[Campbell]

He was no fan of sporting contests - but we're not talking about sporting contests, are we? The record is clear that both he and his students often took on people in other arts. That has nothing to do with aggressiveness or competitions.

Best,

Chris

I don't know, I'm not sure "taking on" someone is any different than a sporting event unless they were trying to kill each other which I'm sure they were not. I don't see how accepting a challenge from someone of another art could avoid being a competition. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.

Was that activity pre or post war? I'm just curious.

[Chris Li]

I don't know, I'm not sure "taking on" someone is any different than a sporting event unless they were trying to kill each other which I'm sure they were not. I don't see how accepting a challenge from someone of another art could avoid being a competition. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.

Was that activity pre or post war? I'm just curious.

Both pre and post.

If he participated in it, and his students participated in it with his knowledge (which we know to be the case), then it can not be as black and white as it being flatly prohibited. But then...things rarely are in Japan - Western thinking tends to like things a little more clearly defined.

Best,

Chris

[lbb]

If he participated in it, and his students participated in it with his knowledge (which we know to be the case), then it can not be as black and white as it being flatly prohibited. But then...things rarely are in Japan - Western thinking tends to like things a little more clearly defined.

Well, also...just because someone did something, doesn't mean it isn't illegal here and now (or wasn't illegal then and there, for that matter). Sometimes people get away with things; that doesn't mean you will if you do the same. "But he did it!!!" doesn't even work on a first-grade teacher, much less cops and DAs.

[Chris Li]

Well, also...just because someone did something, doesn't mean it isn't illegal here and now (or wasn't illegal then and there, for that matter). Sometimes people get away with things; that doesn't mean you will if you do the same. "But he did it!!!" doesn't even work on a first-grade teacher, much less cops and DAs.

First of all, I wasn't discussing the legality, at all. Secondly, as you well know, people engage in cross art matches all over the country on a daily basis that are perfectly legal.

Best,

Chris

[john2054]

Well I have recently joined a new club. And tonight I had a bedroom brawl with my wife and step-daughter. She used Chinese style, and the little one used slaps style. I finished second, with the little one last. She was simply to short to get the shots in. And they said i couldn't fight?!?!?!?!

[Campbell]

Well I have recently joined a new club. And tonight I had a bedroom brawl with my wife and step-daughter. She used Chinese style, and the little one used slaps style. I finished second, with the little one last. She was simply to short to get the shots in. And they said i couldn't fight?!?!?!?!

Best of luck...carful though or your going to run out of dojos to train at. :)

[tarik]

This is one of the most amusing threads I've read in quite some time.

[Michael Douglas]

Back on-topic,
how did I miss this?
... What's more Aikido teaches you to never attack first, ...
No it doesn't!

Do carry on ...

[lbb]

This is one of the most amusing threads I've read in quite some time.
Prediction: it will still be here, still being periodically revived by newbies, still stinkin' up the joint, in ten years.

[john2054]

There isn't enough data to answer that question, but here are a few questions that may help you formulate a plan of action:


Was there any discussion when you got banned, or had there been any discussion leading up to it?
Do you understand the reasons why you were banned? Do you agree with it?
If you were to go back, what would change in order for you to remain there -- the dojo's rules/expectations, or your behavior? How would this change happen, and are you okay with it?

Was there any discussion when i got banned? no
do i understand thw reasons why i was banned, do i agree with it? Yes becos i broke every rule in the book by saying that i was going to have a street fight with a young woman, whereas aikido is supposed to be non competetive. also because i mentioned that i was once (nearly) charged with attempted rape, always goes down a scorcher. and someone from another club called up my club to complain. but no i dont think this warrants a ban
if i was to go back what would i change? nothing it was and still is a great club. it has all been a big misunderstanding. but for the time being the ban stands.:hypno:

[Cliff Judge]

Was there any discussion when i got banned? no
do i understand thw reasons why i was banned, do i agree with it? Yes becos i broke every rule in the book by saying that i was going to have a street fight with a young woman, whereas aikido is supposed to be non competetive. also because i mentioned that i was once (nearly) charged with attempted rape, always goes down a scorcher. and someone from another club called up my club to complain. but no i dont think this warrants a ban
if i was to go back what would i change? nothing it was and still is a great club. it has all been a big misunderstanding. but for the time being the ban stands.:hypno:

Generally students have to live up to some standards of character and reputability.

[Janet Rosen]

Generally students have to live up to some standards of character and reputability.

Certainly true at any dojo I would want to be a member of.

[lbb]

Was there any discussion when i got banned? no
do i understand thw reasons why i was banned, do i agree with it? Yes becos i broke every rule in the book by saying that i was going to have a street fight with a young woman, whereas aikido is supposed to be non competetive. also because i mentioned that i was once (nearly) charged with attempted rape, always goes down a scorcher. and someone from another club called up my club to complain. but no i dont think this warrants a ban
if i was to go back what would i change? nothing it was and still is a great club. it has all been a big misunderstanding. but for the time being the ban stands.:hypno:

Hello John,

I didn't exactly ask "what would you change" if you went back -- I asked what would change (in the dojo's rules, in your behavior, in whatever) that would allow you to remain there and not simply get banned again. This may be simplistic thinking on my part, but it seems like something would have to change or you'd just get the same outcome again. So, what would change?

[Campbell]

Was there any discussion when i got banned? no
do i understand thw reasons why i was banned, do i agree with it? Yes becos i broke every rule in the book by saying that i was going to have a street fight with a young woman, whereas aikido is supposed to be non competetive. also because i mentioned that i was once (nearly) charged with attempted rape, always goes down a scorcher. and someone from another club called up my club to complain. but no i dont think this warrants a ban
if i was to go back what would i change? nothing it was and still is a great club. it has all been a big misunderstanding. but for the time being the ban stands.:hypno:

Well between attempting to fight a female and you mentioning you were almost charged with rape I can completely understand a ban. Any other things that you didn't mention that may have contributed to the ban? You have to keep in mind that the instructor has to run a safe dojo so those things are a pretty big deal.

[Michael Douglas]

Before there's too much tarring ;
... i mentioned that i was once (nearly) charged with attempted rape, ..:
This can happen to anyone without any blame at all,
don't assume anything about John from it, least of all 'bad character'.
(Unfortunately people just 'knee-jerk' their way through the internet)

[Cliff Judge]

Before there's too much tarring ;

This can happen to anyone without any blame at all,
don't assume anything about John from it, least of all 'bad character'.
(Unfortunately people just 'knee-jerk' their way through the internet)

Well, throw in a bit of a cheeky attitude about it, warnings from other dojos, and possibly even threatening female members of the dojo with bodily assault and you're well out of knee-jerk territory.

[BJohnston]

Was there any discussion when i got banned? no
do i understand thw reasons why i was banned, do i agree with it? Yes becos i broke every rule in the book by saying that i was going to have a street fight with a young woman, whereas aikido is supposed to be non competetive. also because i mentioned that i was once (nearly) charged with attempted rape, always goes down a scorcher. and someone from another club called up my club to complain. but no i dont think this warrants a ban
if i was to go back what would i change? nothing it was and still is a great club. it has all been a big misunderstanding. but for the time being the ban stands.:hypno:

This all sounds like an Andy Kaufman joke.

B

[Janet Rosen]

This all sounds like an Andy Kaufman joke.

B

:D

[john2054]

OKay I've been banned for a year. What would change? To allow me to go back? Well I need to let a year pass, and get some medical letters then i should be alright.

[Krystal Locke]

OKay I've been banned for a year. What would change? To allow me to go back? Well I need to let a year pass, and get some medical letters then i should be alright.

I would suggest keeping the lines of communication open with your sensei while you are out of the dojo. Keep him informed of the actual steps you are actually taking to fix the problems that actually got you bounced.

[john2054]

Over a year later. But my 'style' must be pretty lethal seeing as the police and security services have to keep a close watch on my every move. Between friends my style has a name, but it borrows that name from another style. And so in font of confusing the two, we can stick with Budo as the generic term for the time being. And if any of you want to know more about 'this style' I suggest you go and ask YOUR senseis about it, because this one here is done.

PS with regards to my mental health/psychiatric problems, i think this is the reason why i have been unable to train. People don't like things they don't understand, and most martial arts people don't understand psychosis, not at all. Only people with some real insight/experience in to this problem have any true understanding there/ And you would think that people involved with this as their profession, would be the experts, but sadly it is my experience that these are, more often than not, the furtherest from the truth as anyone. Their paid job role prevents them, alongside unspoken cultural stigma, from properly engaging with these cases. So when it is realised that there are a lot of things wrong with society, from non academics lying on their job applications to get university grade jobs, and so on.

I could go on, and drown out this forum. Finally one more thing, somebody on here told me something i said, 'was not' Aikido? Really? Maybe it doesn't fit to the way he has learnt akikido, but as a spiritual pursuit my martial art, Aikido, incorporates everything under the sun. including attacks. that will just give me one more advantage than you when we finally meet on a street corner one of these nights!

John.

[Michael Hackett]

You might check out the thread "Will Aikido Training Protect Me In Jail?". Actually pretty good advice, but I hope you won't ever need it.

[PeterR]

Wow just wow - is this a hoax.

If there is any hint of real danger to club members this is it.

[Hellis]

Wow just wow - is this a hoax.

If there is any hint of real danger to club members this is it.

Peter

If you read ` John 2054 ` last comment on the thread `` How to deal with irritating partners `` - you may want to add another couple of ` wows `.

Henry Ellis
Co-author ` Positive Aikido `
http://kazuo-chiba-sensei.blogspot.com/
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

[PeterR]

Years ago - literally within 2 weeks of opening up my first club I had one person show up (and I swear this is true) waving a little red book and loudly proclaiming what I was doing was not Aikido. Shades of Mao I know but it was actually John Steven's collection of Doka.

This and the other post remind me of this - persons loudly declaring that only they understand what aikido is all about and in Japan they do .......

Red book boy was annoying but hardly dangerous especially since no one admitted to ever having him attend class. However getting someone with that level of delusion, especially of an aggressive bent, on the mat is foolhardy at best.

[crbateman]

Red book boy was annoying but hardly dangerous especially since no one admitted to ever having him attend class. However getting someone with that level of delusion, especially of an aggressive bent, on the mat is foolhardy at best.
People who THINK they know everything about budo are a constant source of annoyance for people like me who actually DO know everything... ;)

[PeterR]

People who THINK they know everything about budo are a constant source of annoyance for people like me who actually DO know everything... ;)

:D

[sakumeikan]

Over a year later. But my 'style' must be pretty lethal seeing as the police and security services have to keep a close watch on my every move. Between friends my style has a name, but it borrows that name from another style. And so in font of confusing the two, we can stick with Budo as the generic term for the time being. And if any of you want to know more about 'this style' I suggest you go and ask YOUR senseis about it, because this one here is done.

PS with regards to my mental health/psychiatric problems, i think this is the reason why i have been unable to train. People don't like things they don't understand, and most martial arts people don't understand psychosis, not at all. Only people with some real insight/experience in to this problem have any true understanding there/ And you would think that people involved with this as their profession, would be the experts, but sadly it is my experience that these are, more often than not, the furtherest from the truth as anyone. Their paid job role prevents them, alongside unspoken cultural stigma, from properly engaging with these cases. So when it is realised that there are a lot of things wrong with society, from non academics lying on their job applications to get university grade jobs, and so on.

I could go on, and drown out this forum. Finally one more thing, somebody on here told me something i said, 'was not' Aikido? Really? Maybe it doesn't fit to the way he has learnt akikido, but as a spiritual pursuit my martial art, Aikido, incorporates everything under the sun. including attacks. that will just give me one more advantage than you when we finally meet on a street corner one of these nights!

John.
Dear John,
Have you considered the possibility that the reason [assuming your comments are genuine] that the police and the security services are keeping a watchful eye on you is related not to you aikido lethal? skills but more towards the fact that you have mental health issues?As for mental health issues I am pretty familiar with this terrible illness.I do hope your condition improves.Cheers. Joe.

[john2054]

Hi people. Well i am two years cohabiting and four years in my degree, with a year left to go. As to the aikido ban, I am still grappling with that one. And as for my mental health, yes i've got issues. Three weeks ago i actually went down to Roehampton university london, for a day long conference on the subject. And vips such as Robert Whittaker and Peter Breggin spoke at this event.

Oh yeah and i am not a troll.

See you on the other side (quote from the new call of duty game).

John Robinson

[Janet Rosen]

Hi people. Well i am two years cohabiting and four years in my degree, with a year left to go. As to the aikido ban, I am still grappling with that one. And as for my mental health, yes i've got issues. Three weeks ago i actually went down to Roehampton university london, for a day long conference on the subject. And vips such as Robert Whittaker and Peter Breggin spoke at this event.

Oh yeah and i am not a troll.

See you on the other side (quote from the new call of duty game).

John Robinson

Good to hear from you, John. Don't sweat the aikido thing for now...keep working on getting your academic/professional and overall personal life where you want it to be...the aikido will be waiting for you.

[john2054]

Thanks Janet. I still love Aikido, but my last four years at university have been difficult at the best of times. I read a facebook article today on martial artists, it said that the litmus test of a 'true' martial artist is the ability to stay calm under the heat of the fire. But just because i have an affective (emotional) personality doesn't mean that i can't do martial arts does it.

If I was really serious about it, I could go to this new club I have found and take the two medical letters i have had done (one from the orthopaedic consultant, and the other from my gp about my breathing). However i would still like to return to my old club, for nostalgia's sake, if nothing else. And they have told me i need a psychiatric letter. Hopefully I should be seeing my psychiatrist in the next few weeks or so, and i can ask him to do this then, and assuming he agrees to write it, then i will have more fuel to throw on the fire, whichever way i turn.

But you know, i will also have to find time for class, to train. Which despite only being a couple of hours or so a week, is still a work chunk taken out of my university studies. Which being in their final year is now really a make or break point. What do you think? x

[Hellis]

Hi John
Firstly I agree with Janet's comment.
I have read your earlier messages and it appears you have many issues to deal with, I believe you seriously need to prioritise these issues - your family comes first - your university studies second and Aikido way behind - next - I don't know you old dojo or teachers, but I believe you have gone beyond the forgive and make up with you old dojo.
You seriously need to move on to another dojo, confide in the next teacher that you need help and support and understanding.
I wish you good fortune.

Henry Ellis

Co-author of `Positive Aikido`

http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
http://henryellis-aikido.blogspot.com/
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/

[earnest aikidoka]

Ok so I have a quick question.

How do two people fight using aikido? I see a lot of people saying that "I see nothing wrong with letting them test each other" and stuff like that but doesn't someone have to be the aggressor?

Didn't Morihei Ueshiba make Aikido to not have attacks?

So how would this fight take place....a staring contest? I don't get it...

That was why most of the old masters went out to pick fights. They could not fight each other, like karateka could, for example.

Furthermore, fighting then and fighting now is quite different, or not what you think it means. Read the biography of Gozo Shioda sensei for example, and you can see that most of his fights are brawls involving weapons and multiple opponents, in bars or on streets. Different from what people would think of fighting today, which is with gloves and in relatively controlled and regulated environments or situations. So it was less fighting in Shioda Sensei's time as it was street violence and assault.

Look up videos by one Nick Drossos. You should get an idea of what 'fighting' would have been like back then.

[Janet Rosen]

Hi John
Firstly I agree with Janet's comment.
I have read your earlier messages and it appears you have many issues to deal with, I believe you seriously need to prioritise these issues - your family comes first - your university studies second and Aikido way behind - next - I don't know you old dojo or teachers, but I believe you have gone beyond the forgive and make up with you old dojo.
You seriously need to move on to another dojo, confide in the next teacher that you need help and support and understanding.
I wish you good fortune.

Henry Ellis

Co-author of `Positive Aikido`

http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
http://henryellis-aikido.blogspot.com/
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/

Yes, priorities always family and school first.
So long as you frame the dojo issue as one of adding fuel to a fire rather than achieving a harmonious outcome, you set yourself up for ongoing problems. And nostalgia is essentially worthless, it saps energy and prevents forward movement.
Once you have successfully completed university, investigate options for a new beginning in a new dojo. That's the best advice this middle aged aikidoka can offer.

[john2054]

Hi Janet et al. I am still on talking terms with one of the senseis at my old club, so I have yet to rule out returning there. However that will not be my decision to make. I appreciate i ruffled a few feathers, but hell are they men or are they mice. And quite frankly i only have one word for the people who tell me 'nay' and that is weak. When i saw my consultant psychiatrist 6 months ago he agreed to reduce my meds. Hopefully he will do the same again when i see him next week.

Nostalgia is a precious thing. I value new friends but treasure the old. For those are like silver, and these ones are like gold. Mark Twain.

[john2054]

Some times you have to kill something, before you can bring it back to life again?

[nikyu62]

Not in this time-space reality. Please discuss this with your health care provider.

[john2054]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKHUaNAxsTg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w

[john2054]

I wonder how many of you can actually watch all of those ted talks videos, and comment and engage with me on my level, rather than just picking up thr ketow line, oh he's banned, get rid.

I want to go on about how i'm this and that, but i will refrain from doing so for the common decency of man. Take it easy. And let me know when you have watched the films thanks. John

[john2054]

Let's just talk a little about that last metaphor i just used. True you can't kill a living being and bring them back to life, however, you can terminate a marriage in order to start again with someone else. It is better that way, then to let a dead thing drag on, and bring you both down. That is one example. Another? Hmm. Sometimes with friends such as on facebook, you are better off 'refreshing' your profile, i mean get rid of some of the trolls and starting again with new people you meet. Such is the nature of the universe, again i suggest you look at those banned talks. I am not suggesting that any of you are wrong for wanting me banned from martial arts, just that that is not your decision to make, okay??

[robin_jet_alt]

I am not suggesting that any of you are wrong for wanting me banned from martial arts, just that that is not your decision to make, okay??

Take it easy John. I admit I haven't had time to look at those videos, but nobody here has said they want you banned from martial arts, and I doubt anyone thinks it. Yes, Steven's comment was a little bit sarcastic, but I don't think he meant any offence by it. I sincerely believe that everyone here is hoping for your continued success and well-being, no matter what happens with your old dojo.

Robin

[nikyu62]

John (dear John) I started to watch the Sheldrake video, when I realized I was already familiar with what he was saying, having listened to similar talks by him before. I have also listened to Graham Hancock's work extensively. Having said that, I am not sure how you are using that to illustrate your previous question about killing and starting again. Though my tone may have seemed a bit sarcastic, coming from the history of statements you have made on this thread about harming others, I felt it was on me to clearly state that in our current situation, you cannot kill and then bring back to life. And I was serious about discussing this idea with your health care provider. And I am not proposing that you be banned from martial arts forever, just that you learn to take your aggression down a bunch of notches, and focus on your health care. Best regards, Steve

[lbb]

When you go towards something, you see it more clearly, and learn more about your relationship with it. At least, that's the hope. If you go towards aggression, the hope is that you will see more clearly the consequences of aggression, to yourself and others, and that any draw you feel towards aggression will turn to aversion. If that isn't happening, then you need to find other ways to step away from it -- not least, by not equipping yourself with the tools (read: martial arts) to commit more effective violence. The noble path sometimes consists of refraining rather than acting.

[PeterR]

You lot are far kinder and understanding that I am - that is sure.

My concern would be the group first and any individual second.

[Michael Douglas]

Some times you have to kill something, before you can bring it back to life again?
John are you planning to kill somebody?

[kewms]

You lot are far kinder and understanding that I am - that is sure.

My concern would be the group first and any individual second.

It's easy to be compassionate towards someone thousands of miles away. If someone has presented himself at one's own dojo asking to train it's a much more difficult issue.

Katherine

[john2054]

i just said something and it appears that few people in hear read it.

so let me say again, im not going to kill anyone.

it was a metaphor.

okay?

Secondly it doesn't matter.

Thirdly im not an aggressive person, by posting on here i have opened my self up to the wolves it would seem.

please don't read any of my earlier pposts. that is not me. this is me

[john2054]

Finally to Steven, those videos challenge the whole orthodoxy of conventional science and physics, not to mention drug based science. They are in a word, revolutionary. I don't claim to be this, however what i have done, recovered from a road accident which left me on three out of ten, signs of life, to get married, have a daughter, do a degree, run a house, get basic martial arts qualifications, these are good nay? I can't argue with every f*ker on this site, i am a young man. sorry if you don't like my language. I don't like the amount of begging you are making me do to even hold me head high.

One of my old senseis told me not to post on the internet. Im not sure if that was for his benefit or mine. I have never been in any sort of criminal trouble for my postings, but hell.

ONe more thing, let me remind all and sundry that i do not have a criminal conviction for rape okay? I may have a caution for sexual assault, but it is one thing to be found guilty in a court of law for an offense, and another to be found guilty on the internet. Again forget what you have read before. But i have gone on for too much again. bye

[mathewjgano]

...I can't argue with every f*ker on this site, i am a young man. sorry if you don't like my language. I don't like the amount of begging you are making me do to even hold me head high.

One of my old senseis told me not to post on the internet. Im not sure if that was for his benefit or mine. I have never been in any sort of criminal trouble for my postings, but hell.


Words have power, don't they? They're also often sloppy vehicles for carrying our meaning, which means we shouldn't take them too seriously sometimes; while also being careful about what we do say. It's a funny paradox...And they're even harder over the internet, so I can see why one of your teachers suggested not posting online. I usually regret it, even when I'm not speaking colorfully.
Whatever the case, always hold your head up high. I believe the posture of the body helps the posture of the mind (speaking as someone who has dealt with a bit of depression since childhood). As long as we're doing our best, the impressions of others are but suggestions for our consideration on this road of life.
Best of luck!
Sincerely,
Matt

[john2054]

Thanks Matt, on a slightly more positive note, today we had a business meeting to move one step closer to buying our first house. That's good as well. Thanks.

[robin_jet_alt]

Thanks Matt, on a slightly more positive note, today we had a business meeting to move one step closer to buying our first house. That's good as well. Thanks.

Good luck with that John. I'm doing something similar, and it's not easy...

[Michael Douglas]

Currently we are living in a culture of hugely inflated house prices and very low interest rates.

There be dragons!

[john2054]

Well with regards to the house it has fallen through. And with regards to the meds, i am having them reduced by a small amount. As far as the martial arts is concerned, I asked my consultant about it when i saw him, but i don't think it engaged with him when i said it. So we are back to square one. Yet again. What was it they said, that small things start in small packages? Try telling my wife that hohoho!