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Demetrio Cereijo
12-11-2013, 06:09 PM
This is what happens when Ki masters and skeptics are in the same room.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6XldR7pCFI

Kevin Leavitt
12-12-2013, 06:11 AM
An extreme example, but it illustrates my point I was trying to make on the Aikijiujitsu thread concerning measures and criteria.

Budd
12-12-2013, 10:34 AM
Yeah, that stuff is just dumb. I am due to go out and level set some of my own assumptions again.

I actually appreciate how the "skeptics" were still reasonably respectful in questioning the assumptions. I am as much about respecting someone's house as the next guy, but yeah, opening the door to questions about what works in self-defense based on dumb extrapolations - that shit should be squashed.

Kevin Leavitt
12-12-2013, 12:02 PM
That has been the big take away for me in the last few weeks really. That is, introspection and constantly looking to make sure I am not developing self confirming habits and becoming a "self licking ice cream cone".

Budd
12-12-2013, 01:46 PM
Well, it was one of the things I liked best about having my little "intro" class that I was doing up here through Community Ed as I'd usually get people on either end of the spectrum with either having already black belts in something else versus people that had never done anything and therefore had no preconceived notions.

phitruong
12-12-2013, 03:41 PM
This is what happens when Ki masters and skeptics are in the same room.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6XldR7pCFI

i see what he did wrong there. he should have wear all white. everyone knows that white is better for ki conduction. dark color is for the sith, where they zap you with taser instead of ki ball.

as a side note, i wonder what sort of people are his students. would be an interesting psycho analysis study of those folks. even more curious is where to find them, because i need to remake myself (sort of like Madona remade herself ...into what i still had no idea) into the some sort of Grand Vizier where i would call myself "Phi the White" and need those sort of folks for slaves.... i meant acolytes. :D

Kevin Leavitt
12-12-2013, 04:27 PM
I was wondering the same to. How do you find or develop a group of people that suspend a degree of rationality and believe that they are really being influenced in this manner. I mean it is real because they believe it. I was wondering the same thing from a psychological perspective.

RonRagusa
12-12-2013, 04:32 PM
This is what happens when Ki masters and skeptics are in the same room.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6XldR7pCFI

No where in the whole video is Ki mentioned, not once. Nor is Ki referred to on his web site. Whatever that guy was trying to demonstrate it had nothing to do with Ki. Ki isn't "empty force".

Ron

sakumeikan
12-12-2013, 05:27 PM
Hi Guys,
This video makes me wonder how any person can believe such nonsense.I think some people suspend common sense and quite frankly get taken for a ride by guys like Jukka.Total rubbish, gives the wrong impression of Aikido. Cheers, Joe.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-12-2013, 05:56 PM
No where in the whole video is Ki mentioned, not once. Nor is Ki referred to on his web site. Whatever that guy was trying to demonstrate it had nothing to do with Ki. Ki isn't "empty force".

Ron
Well.... "empty force" is a manifestation of Ki; Jukka is, I've been told, Aikido Nidan (Hikitsuchi lineage) and he claims he is doing the real thing as intended by O Sensei.

Maybe he and you have different deffinitions for the tem 'Ki'.

RonRagusa
12-12-2013, 07:09 PM
Maybe he and you have different deffinitions for the tem 'Ki'.

Undoubtedly.

Ron

Demetrio Cereijo
12-13-2013, 11:57 AM
How do you find or develop a group of people that suspend a degree of rationality and believe that they are really being influenced in this manner. I mean it is real because they believe it. I was wondering the same thing from a psychological perspective.

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com.es/2012/08/mentalism-and-self-deception-in-martial.html

Demetrio Cereijo
12-17-2013, 09:51 AM
Official video of the seminar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ5beJRof5w

Kevin Leavitt
12-17-2013, 02:33 PM
This is an interesting video to form a discussion about methodology around.

I'll withhold judgement about the value of this system or training until I know more about his endstates and goals. It could be that his methods work just fine. From his comments on the video, it is hard to tell what his endstates are. I assume he is successful simply based on the fact that he can have a roomfull of people attend a seminar for at least the length of the sample video.

So, what are his endstates? it is something about opening your heart and good things happen to you or something like that. I am not too clear, maybe someone who knows more about this than me can elaborate.

It could be that this training is able to do many things for the people that study this. Clearly they seem to like it and there seems to be a community built around a mutual/shared experience of some sort.

So, we'd have to know first what it is that he is accomplishing and talk to his students to figure out how it has benefited them. That is the big take away for me.

As a martial system, I'd say it is pretty poor based on the observation of the two videos Demetrio has posted. I'd say it does absolutely nothing of value that I would walk in the door for. But, what does that matter to me or what really does my opinion matter.

If he professed that it was a martial art and he wanted to demonstrate that, I'd then walk in with my criteria and methods for testing that and then see how he was able to address those issues.

Other than that, we'd have to spend more time really getting to the core of what he is creating. My guess is it is somewhat ambiguous and the followers are quite okay with that!

Demetrio Cereijo
12-17-2013, 03:09 PM
This is the version of one of the attending skeptics:

Hi guys,

The spanish organizer thought I wasn't yet mentally and open minded prepared for EFO, but I was finally allowed to attend the demonstration because Jukka Lampila personally invited me via Facebook.

So, we came together 6 skeptics to the seminar, it was supposed to be 30 minutes long, but lastly reached 2h. Lot of people asked questions and verbally disputed EFO's claims, but the ones who on december 6th physically interacted with Jukka were spanish Kyusho instructor Raśl Merino, Skeptic 1, me, Skeptic 2 and Skeptic 3.

The demonstration began with Jukka Lampila stating that if you open your heart, you could neutralize any attacker with harmful intentions. In fact, the more aggressive is the attacker, much easily EFO affects him. So, Raśl Merino first pushes his shoulder as 'being friendly', and nothing happens. But when Raśl is asked to push Jukka with 'angry' intentions, then Jukka guided a little bit Merino's arm and shortly sent him flying with no visible technique. He repeated this a couple of times, including just kindly placing his hand over Merino's chest when he was on the ground, being Merino completely unable to move or stand up.

Another EFO display was just shaking hands with Merino and 'opening his heart', quickly Merino falling down and feeling with 'no worries'.

Thereafter Skeptic 1 asks if EFO works with everyone, asking Jukka to test it with him. Lampila put his hand on Skeptic 1's chest and after a while says his energy is somehow blocked and EFO could not work. Anyway Skeptic 1 insists and Jukka ask him to push with 'intention'. Jukka then tried the same moves he made with Raśl Merino but nothing happens and Skeptic 1 keeps pushing one time and another. Jukka continues attempting to execute his EFO but Skeptic 1 doesn't fall, moreover, he does some fake punches to show Jukka how he could strike him during the process.

Jukka claimed again Skeptic 1's energy was stagnant, and then tried with me. He put his hans on my chest and noticed my heart beating speedily (yeah, a bit nervous when being the focus of attention...) and said my heart was 'closed' and EFO wouldn't work with me. I asked him to try anyway the pushing exercise but then Skeptic 2 starts asking how could EFO work if you don't know about the emotional state of the attacker.

After some discussion Jukka asks Skeptic 2 to push him, and Skeptic 2 pushes Jukka a few times but with a 'snap effect'. Jukka stops him asking him to push only in his left shoulder and with a deep push, so the 'intention' could remain. Skeptic 2 then argues nobody will push like he was asking for. Jukka said it wouldn't work with snaps because the 'intention' gets lost, but then Skeptic 2 concludes EFO could not work VS snap punches like a simple Jab, so EFO only works with no trained people.

Conclusion: we were trying to check if EFO worked with skeptics and it didn't. Once said that, the Finnish team started talking between them, probably thinking how to answer our arguments.

After that they changed their speech: EFO wasn't a self-defense system 'at all', it was a method to improve people's life and help them being better persons. Even all their videos and website are all about an attacker being controlled by Jukka's EFO, thinking about it as a Martial Art or self-defense system was a wrong and unfair deduction (lol).

Skeptic 3 then stood up and claimed he has no experience in martial arts and he was not even in good shape. He punched a training bag and asked if Jukka, probably the most powerful Empty Force master in the world, would be able to stop some noob punches. Jukka asked of course he could: if Skeptic 3 attacked, he for sure wouldn't be able to reach him. Then Skeptic 3 asks to try it and Jukka answers no. When asked 'why?' Jukka answered 'I don't know'.

Trying again to avoid a true self-defence test more than pushing, other Finnish students started saying EFO was not designed to show who had the biggest Ego, and that EFO was not about fighting.

Close to the end, a Finnish student recognized in a private discussion that throwing people flying was just marketing to attract people, being EFO just some kind of healing and personal improving method.

We've got some interesting videos with Raśl Merino being EFOed as Jukka's Uke and Jukka's attempts with the skeptics. Don't expect a 'Kiai Master VS MMA' like video because it's not. It would not be something spectacular but I think the video shows how EFO fails.

All answers the Finnish team gave about EFO were contrary to all the principles of Physics, and even logically incoherent. I'm very sure they were never asked critically because they were improvising the answers and reasonings, being his last claims 'it's a matter of opinion'.

The day after this demonstration, the spanish organizers admitted EFO maybe was not the proper tool for self-defence situations, but nowadays they continue trusting in EFO as a way of spiritual grow and complement to their martial practice. They will also make a video about their Saturday 7th seminar, were supposedly EFO worked with at least 60% of the assistants.

We are now working on our video, when finished I will post it here.

Bold mine.

Kevin Leavitt
12-17-2013, 03:44 PM
Thereafter Skeptic 1 asks if EFO works with everyone, asking Jukka to test it with him. Lampila put his hand on Skeptic 1's chest and after a while says his energy is somehow blocked and EFO could not work.

I could have predicted that this would be the reasoning. I have attended various seminars over the years and have been charged guilty as being "unreceptive" or "blocking energy". I was told by one shihan/soke that I need to learn to be more receptive that all the blocking was doing me harm and causing me to be unhealthy.

The claim to spirituality and personal improvement is a hard one to tackle as it is ambiguous and really not measurable except by a survey of member opinions as to if they felt more spiritual or that it led to more happiness, health etc. So, as a practice for those things...sure if this is what gets you going!

Alfonso
12-17-2013, 04:14 PM
Just fwiw, this has nothing to do with what I consider legitimate internal strength (neijin) . On the other hand it is fairly common and I think aikido has plenty of this kind of cultish nonsense, not at all confused as to why you'd run into it.

Kevin Leavitt
12-17-2013, 04:41 PM
I don't think Demetrio or anyone else mentioned anything about IS. But since you bring it up...what are the similarities or differences of what is exhibited here versus legitimate IS. What exactly is legitimate internal strength and how do we distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate Internal Strength? that is, how do we measure or test? against what criteria is it appropriate to say one thing is legitimate and something else is not?

I am not saying this to prove or disprove anything anyone is doing. But I think it is important to discuss criteria in a constructive manner with critical thought...not as a free for all that gets all stupid and emotional like in the past!

Alfonso
12-17-2013, 05:25 PM
so , huge caveat , that this is IMO, but.

Internal strength in the martial arts does not require supernatural powers, does not enable teleportation , telekinesis , lighting stuff on fire , flying...

Its the ability to use weight / ground reaction without beign obvious. Whole body (non isolated) movement that can be hard to spot , motivated by the core of your body, which transfers leg and trunk power to the extremities. It has to do with balance and body integrity, it requires a lot of work to achieve enough conditioning to be able to manifest *you wont get it by having someone whisper the secret to you* . Internal strength can be used to manipulate inanimate objects; it doesn't require collusion with anything , you can punch a wall with internal strength and hurt yourself if you want to. A lot of asian martial arts refer to elements of internal strength, but the spectrum of ability is pretty wide, and the methods for cultivation are likewise pretty diverse. There are a bunch of typical demonstrations (bending spear in the throat, lying between bricks and having someone smash them on you, etc ) that are legitimate (if impractical).. and so on.

I think you can peel all the cultural trappings off IS and still end up with unsual body skills, so legitimate doesnt mean member of a group or believer in some religion or anything like that.

Anyone else care to chip in?

Demetrio Cereijo
12-17-2013, 05:34 PM
Wait a minute....

How this thread has gone about IS? You people are really obsessed.

Alfonso
12-17-2013, 05:39 PM
Wait a minute....

How this thread has gone about IS? You people are really obsessed.

I saw something about Ki masters? You think that Qi / Ki is not I/S related? Ok.

But guilty as charged.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-17-2013, 05:39 PM
I could have predicted that this would be the reasoning. I have attended various seminars over the years and have been charged guilty as being "unreceptive" or "blocking energy". I was told by one shihan/soke that I need to learn to be more receptive that all the blocking was doing me harm and causing me to be unhealthy.

Theres is nothing like instilling guilt and fear to gain complliance.

sakumeikan
12-17-2013, 05:43 PM
so , huge caveat , that this is IMO, but.

Internal strength in the martial arts does not require supernatural powers, does not enable teleportation , telekinesis , lighting stuff on fire , flying...

Its the ability to use weight / ground reaction without beign obvious. Whole body (non isolated) movement that can be hard to spot , motivated by the core of your body, which transfers leg and trunk power to the extremities. It has to do with balance and body integrity, it requires a lot of work to achieve enough conditioning to be able to manifest *you wont get it by having someone whisper the secret to you* . Internal strength can be used to manipulate inanimate objects; it doesn't require collusion with anything , you can punch a wall with internal strength and hurt yourself if you want to. A lot of asian martial arts refer to elements of internal strength, but the spectrum of ability is pretty wide, and the methods for cultivation are likewise pretty diverse. There are a bunch of typical demonstrations (bending spear in the throat, lying between bricks and having someone smash them on you, etc ) that are legitimate (if impractical).. and so on.

I think you can peel all the cultural trappings off IS and still end up with unsual body skills, so legitimate doesnt mean member of a group or believer in some religion or anything like that.

Anyone else care to chip in?
Hi Alfonzo,
When my missus orders me to do the housework , mow the lawn and do the dishes, is she using I.S when she moves an inanimate object [namely me ]?Cheers, Joe.

Alfonso
12-17-2013, 05:45 PM
Hi Alfonzo,
When my missus orders me to do the housework , mow the lawn and do the dishes, is she using I.S when she moves an inanimate object [namely me ]?Cheers, Joe.

My wife does the same , and had no training at all. I don't think it qualifies; but it is undeniably stronger than my "internal strength"

PS - I can lift a cup of coffee with it though

Demetrio Cereijo
12-17-2013, 06:00 PM
I saw something about Ki masters? You think that Qi / Ki is not I/S related? Ok.

I'd say EFO is a different expression of Ki.

From what I've gathered Jukka's EFO combines his experience in Aikido (Hikitsuchi, Blaize and maybe Shapiro) and Kyusho Aiki Jutsu (a system headed by anoter finnish: Toni Kauhanen (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvqdyy_toni-kauhanen-en-stage-a-theza-presente-quelques-techniques-d-aikijitsu-de-son-ecole_sport)).

Alfonso
12-17-2013, 06:10 PM
I'd say EFO is a different expression of Ki.

From what I've gathered Jukka's EFO combines his experience in Aikido (Hikitsuchi, Blaize and maybe Shapiro) and Kyusho Aiki Jutsu (a system headed by anoter finnish: Toni Kauhanen (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvqdyy_toni-kauhanen-en-stage-a-theza-presente-quelques-techniques-d-aikijitsu-de-son-ecole_sport)).

ok I think its delusional in any case.

Kevin Leavitt
12-17-2013, 10:40 PM
Delusional if the criteria is an expectation of self defense. Yes, I'd agree with that.

Delusional if it opens your heart and makes you a nicer person. Gets you to consider your relation to the world or others? It may not be delusional in that sense as a form of interpersonal meditation.

They are not clear about this really. I think we all can conclude that the guy running this seems to be shifting his assertions around about what EFO will do for you. I hate when that happens, but it does.

While this is an extreme case. I find the same thing in many martial practices. Mainly ones that profess to be something that will use the word "Internal" or "ki" in the title as something that is produced that is intangible. That "cloud" produces an opportunity that ask people to suspend belief, if even slightly about concreteness. It insinuates that some how there is a better way of doing things. It leverages our belief in the duality of things...that somehow there is a "bad" way of doing things and a "good" way of doing things. that "cloud" creates enough of a gray area, that normal, rational people, that would not normally be delusional in any other way, have "hope" that there is something greater than what they know. If they can simply suspend belief...that if they set aside what they intuitively know as true, ignore the naysayers, and any evidence that is contrary to what is being presented...that they can unlock the secrets and "transcend" the ordinary.

Martial arts is leveraged IMO because violence is horrible. It is the worst thing in a supposed sentient, intelligent being that should be able to transcend it. Therefore, we have hope. We have hope that there is something external to us and internal that we can tap into to transcend the ordinary. Martial Arts is RIPE for picking. We can create an such an environment that people will come and suspend critical thought and belief because they have hope for becoming extraordinary personally and as a social group.

I'm all about the transcendent end state. I think how you avoid delusion is keep true to the measures and being clear about achieving them. If you honestly believe it works, then you should not strictly control the "cooperation" framework to such a degree that it becomes delusional. You should open it up until the point that it achieves failure and be willing to state "THIS is the CLIFF". "this is the end of the road where this appears to be helpful. That is how IMO you avoid delusion.

Most people...even if the cliff is there will ignore it. They don't want to go to the edge and admit they won't take that next step. IMO it is because they have fear. Fear that if they recognize that the cliff is there...they can no longer have hope and it scares the hell out of them.

Budd
12-18-2013, 09:07 AM
I just roll my eyes whenever I see too much made of the "belief system" oriented stuff. Most anything in martial arts should have a degree of tangible outcomes that can be measured (similar to Kevin's value-based statement above). Each person training should be able to benchmark their progress against some level of objective standard (even if it's a microset, e.g. "To do whole body strength, you have to limit the firing of inappropriate local muscle usage", then train a specific movement over time and have the ability to objectively check whether or not everything is moving together versus still using, say, shoulders to raise the arms), whether it's body skills or ability to apply them on another person via a degree of settings (static, moving, resisting).

The trouble with even the above statement is that self-perpetuating groups will manipulate the above to make it seem like the "objective" criteria are being met --> which leads to the resultant that certain objective standards should be true regardless of whether someone believes the same thing or practices the same stuff that you do.

akiy
12-18-2013, 03:50 PM
Hi folks,

The subthread regarding "Measuring if/how martial arts helps one become a better person" has been broken off to a new thread: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23224

-- Jun

chillzATL
12-18-2013, 03:52 PM
Hi folks,

The subthread regarding "Measuring if/how martial arts helps one become a better person" has been broken off to a new thread: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23224

-- Jun

probably still should have stayed in non-aikido as it's not aikido specific, but either or I guess.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-19-2013, 01:15 PM
This was posted today at EFO facebook page:

EFO_FAQs_v2

1.What does EFO mean?
EFO stands for Empty FOrce. It is a training method for human interaction employing body
and mind. The method differs from the other methods because two or more persons are
practising EFO together. EFO studies mind-body and mind-mind interaction.

2. Is EFO a combat art or self defence?
No, but it can be an additional tool for any self defence. Applying EFO's principles it may help to prevent a conflict or provocation from escalating to physical violence. EFO skills may also help in a situation where physical means cannot be used. In japanese terms, EFO is not 'bujutsu', but it correlates with the meaning of the word 'budo'. Rather than combat sport, EFO is a way for inner development and expansion of consciousness. EFO is a path inward to discover the power of the presence and state of being.

3. What are the EFO's principles?
When practising EFO, it is important to understand the concepts of Intention, Grounding, Heart and Knowledge.In brief, they could be translated as follows: Intention: The same as "KI" in japanese terms,
intention to do something, mental energy, willingness. For example aggression typically generates intention.Grounding: Relaxation of the whole body and mind acknowledging the gravity of hara, center
of the body. Heart: Japanese term Kokoro for heart, not only the organ but could be understood as "soul" or "spirit" etc.. Opening one's heart means a change in one's mind and body enabling acceptance and fearlessness.Knowledge: Ability to use intuition instead of thoughts, "the power of an empty mind". This becomes easier when the previously explained concepts are utilised. For example: "Flow" state in sports.

4. How is EFO practised?
Usually two or more people practise together. During the practise, another person's feedback helps another to understand the changes in one's state of mind and eventually the body.An example: Another trainer performs a formal attack with strong intention. The opponent studies how EFO principles can be applied to reduce the intention of the attacker. EFO promotes peace that neutralises all attacks through no reaction and no aggression, in order to avoid a situation where two forces collide and create tension between two counterparts. Practising is executed in a respectful and relaxed way and through joy. In EFO no physical power is used to dominate the other person. No pain to is caused to others during the practice.

5. Are there some physical techniques in EFO?
No. The physical appearance or form of the attack is not relevant. Training is mainly concentrating on observing the intention of the attacker, and on reducing the willingness to attack by using EFO's principles, of which one being acceptance.

6. Why is EFO practise conducted on Tatami?
Training EFO includes physical exercises and it is more convenient to have a soft floor to prevent injuries and bruises.

7. Is it neccessary to use an "EFO-suit"?
No, anyone training EFO can use their own suit from what ever martial arts or sports they practise, or any other convenient dress. It is also possible to get an EFO-ki if one does not have any other suitable training clothes. It is better if the texture is strong enough to hold a grip.

8. Is there competition or belt grades in EFO?
No.

9. Why does EFO "work" with someone but "does not work" with everyone?
When training EFO, two people are both training. For example a drill could be /ehdotus an attacker- a defender scenario. The attacker practises how to generate a genuine intention, which can be felt by the opponent applying EFO to alter the intention of the attacker. That is why EFO is also a mental practise for the attacker, to understand the meaning of intention. If one only performs a "fake" physical attack without a real intention, nothing should happen, because the aim of the practise is merely to reduce the intention of the attacker.

10. Why practise EFO?
Reasons to practise EFO may be manifold. For example:
- To improve the ability to relax in scary situations
- Nice hobby with people who are interested in similar things
- Soft training without pain
- To study and to develop mental skills.


For something that is not a self-defense, I can't help to wonder why they publish clips like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiKtEwqDMcs) under the title 'EFO in daily life'.