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Dalaran1991
12-05-2013, 07:52 PM
In my dojo as in a lot of styles the basic entry is an irimi or irmi tenkan with an atemi to the head of uke while the other hand deflect uke's attacking arm.

This is all well and good, except that, just like other interior entry you always risk running into uke's free hand. Anyone with a good martial foundation will keep the other hand in their front arc ready to protect the face or to counter attack. And the free back leg...

Then I saw this one:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_-EV00Ih70

I really like this exterior entry. Keep you away from both the free arm and leg of uke while positioning you behind and into uke's guard. However I've never seen this before and the vid was too fast for me. The circular downward cut of yokomen is too wide to irimi outside and it's hard to deflect uke's right arm with your left arm like in this vid.

Anyone familiar with an exterior entry for yokomen? Vids appreciated! :)

robin_jet_alt
12-05-2013, 11:58 PM
Yes, I'm familiar with a few variations of this entry. I don't have any videos right now.

Dalaran1991
12-06-2013, 02:59 AM
Could you please describe? Or any video on youtube that shows something similar :)

Carsten Möllering
12-06-2013, 03:18 AM
I'm familiar with this entry for it is part of our kihon waza.
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GahFSk9h9o) may not be, what you are looking for exactly. But It shows part of the way how we start learning this entry. It can be done with lesser or even no contact before going "through" the atacking arm.

Dalaran1991
12-06-2013, 03:39 AM
That is a great execution of the entry, but this is also how we do it in our dojo. Isn't it still a frontal interior entry? When he enters he is still in the front arc of uke, and then he ducks out back. I'm looking for the entry that position you outside of the attacking arm and to the side and back of uke, not in the front arc of uke's body.

sakumeikan
12-06-2013, 03:49 AM
That is a great execution of the entry, but this is also how we do it in our dojo. Isn't it still a frontal interior entry? When he enters he is still in the front arc of uke, and then he ducks out back. I'm looking for the entry that position you outside of the attacking arm and to the side and back of uke, not in the front arc of uke's body.
Dear Trinh,
Why not simply do an irimi motion , taking you behind your partner, after the initial movement which if done correctly neutralises your partners attack?Cheers, Joe.

Carsten Möllering
12-06-2013, 04:01 AM
Isn't it still a frontal interior entry? It is an entry to the side "into" the attacking arm. When you practice this in an advanced manner you can got "through" this arm and get right behind uke. We do it mostly for irimi nage. But kaiten nage also is nice. Or just to get behind the attacker.

In our teaching what is shown in the video you posted, is develloped over time from what you see in the video I posted.

Dalaran1991
12-06-2013, 04:03 AM
Dear Trinh,
Why not simply do an irimi motion , taking you behind your partner, after the initial movement which if done correctly neutralises your partners attack?Cheers, Joe.

I''ve been looking for a way to do that for a while now. The thing is, yokomen is not a direct downward cut like shomen. It's attacking arc covers a large area of the side uke of the attacking arm. If you irimi out into that side you need some kind of uke nagashi to deflect the arm or you will take the slap. I guess this is why most schools do the inside irimi. And the angle with which the strike is landing confuses me as to how a deflection should look like and with what movement?

Carsten Möllering
12-06-2013, 05:04 AM
I''ve been looking for a way to do that for a while now. The thing is, yokomen is not a direct downward cut like shomen. It's attacking arc covers a large area of the side uke of the attacking arm. If you irimi out into that side you need some kind of uke nagashi to deflect the arm or you will take the slap. I guess this is why most schools do the inside irimi. And the angle with which the strike is landing confuses me as to how a deflection should look like and with what movement?

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GahFSk9h9o&feature=player_detailpage#t=23)is what can become the uke nagashi if you go through instead of stepping in on uke like shown in the vid.
We teach to practice slowly, make contact with the arm and then swing in / fold in the elbow joint and lower arm while stepping through.
Hard to describe instead to show. But in the end the steps, the feet are much more important than the deflecting movement of the arms. With some experience it is sometimes able to do this without contact.

Ethan Weisgard
12-06-2013, 07:06 AM
In Iwama Takemusu Aikido we do exterior entries fagainst yokomen uchi for certain techniques, both in kihon and ki no nagare form.
This is Saito Sensei explaining and showing the points regarding these movements.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ouo6auP9Fc

In aiki,
Ethan Weisgard

Mario Tobias
12-06-2013, 08:00 AM
In my dojo as in a lot of styles the basic entry is an irimi or irmi tenkan with an atemi to the head of uke while the other hand deflect uke's attacking arm.

This is all well and good, except that, just like other interior entry you always risk running into uke's free hand. Anyone with a good martial foundation will keep the other hand in their front arc ready to protect the face or to counter attack. And the free back leg...


For the irimi version, what we were taught was that entering deep is wrong since as you said you'll run into uke's free hand. Technically, it's not irimi tenkan. It is a "hybrid" step. It's more that you step to the side rather than step deep (irimi). You need to ensure that your feet are side by side when you start stepping. The foot that steps should not extend beyond the line of the front foot.

The thing with this is that when you do your atemi, it is just perfect distance where you can reach uke, but uke can't reach you (by a few cms). If uke (1) can atemi you or (2) you have an overreaching atemi, then you've entered too deep. If you have stepped to the side too much then you cannot reach uke for an atemi. These are the tests IMHO for the proper distance.

Stepping to the side also provides the necessary extension to properly offbalance uke. If you've entered deep, then uke will just pivot around his sphere. You need to extend him outside his sphere.

I've attached Chiba-sensei's vid. Although it's too fast, he steps to the side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HErZfPCybfU

movement with katadori is the same

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dPmuXtqE_E

sakumeikan
12-06-2013, 10:37 AM
For the irimi version, what we were taught was that entering deep is wrong since as you said you'll run into uke's free hand. Technically, it's not irimi tenkan. It is a "hybrid" step. It's more that you step to the side rather than step deep (irimi). You need to ensure that your feet are side by side when you start stepping. The foot that steps should not extend beyond the line of the front foot.

The thing with this is that when you do your atemi, it is just perfect distance where you can reach uke, but uke can't reach you (by a few cms). If uke (1) can atemi you or (2) you have an overreaching atemi, then you've entered too deep. If you have stepped to the side too much then you cannot reach uke for an atemi. These are the tests IMHO for the proper distance.

Stepping to the side also provides the necessary extension to properly offbalance uke. If you've entered deep, then uke will just pivot around his sphere. You need to extend him outside his sphere.

I've attached Chiba-sensei's vid. Although it's too fast, he steps to the side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HErZfPCybfU

movement with katadori is the same

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dPmuXtqE_E

Dear Mario,
Neither of the two vids you show of Chiba Sensei are irimi movements.Of course the movements are correct [as one would expect from Chiba Sensei] however neither have direct entry INTO the yokomen attack.Chiba Sensei neutralises both by absorption of Ukes forces.
Back to the drawing board methinks???Cheers, Joe.

mathewjgano
12-06-2013, 01:16 PM
In my dojo as in a lot of styles the basic entry is an irimi or irmi tenkan with an atemi to the head of uke while the other hand deflect uke's attacking arm.

This is all well and good, except that, just like other interior entry you always risk running into uke's free hand. Anyone with a good martial foundation will keep the other hand in their front arc ready to protect the face or to counter attack. And the free back leg...

Then I saw this one:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_-EV00Ih70

I really like this exterior entry. Keep you away from both the free arm and leg of uke while positioning you behind and into uke's guard. However I've never seen this before and the vid was too fast for me. The circular downward cut of yokomen is too wide to irimi outside and it's hard to deflect uke's right arm with your left arm like in this vid.

Anyone familiar with an exterior entry for yokomen? Vids appreciated! :)

At 1:13, it looks like he's leading (disrupting?) with contact from the inside an instant before his back hand connects with and cuts her yokomenuchi down and across his center line. I'm "new" so please anyone correct me where I seem off, but I'd describe the beginning portion as slipping/ducking the attack to the outside to show how the base moves/attacks and then later he seems to use that "disruption" from the inside an instant before the outside cut occurs.
As I understand it (I mean that phrase very loosely), if both sides are alive and you don't suppress aite's center, that's when you get hit.
Also, my gut says trying to enter through an arcing cut from the outside is like trying to squeeze an egg (which is of course much easier to break from the inside), which to my mind would seem to support the idea that he's actually connecting to the strike from the inside to draw it further away from aite's center (off-balancing slightly?) before attacking from the outside.
...Looking again at :27, it looks like both arms/hands connecting almost simultaneously...which still looks like a bit of inside first to draw off center before cutting down from the outside...although, again, my eyes aren't that great, let alone my level of skill.
Any further analysis would be greatly appreciated!
Take care!

Mario Tobias
12-06-2013, 01:46 PM
Dear Mario,
Neither of the two vids you show of Chiba Sensei are irimi movements.Of course the movements are correct [as one would expect from Chiba Sensei] however neither have direct entry INTO the yokomen attack.Chiba Sensei neutralises both by absorption of Ukes forces.
Back to the drawing board methinks???Cheers, Joe.

Sorry, I was meaning to say the omote version rather than irimi (ura version) because OP was pointing to the "interior entry" which I interpreted as omote. He said they normally do irimi tenkan. The steps I described are for the omote which is why I posted chiba-sensei's vids.

Dalaran1991
12-06-2013, 04:23 PM
This is how we practice yokomenuchi in France. As you see there's a lot of circular movement. The idea is great pedagogically, to teach proper taisabaki and ma ai, but IMHO not the most effective martially speaking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZef071snTM

odudog
12-06-2013, 04:54 PM
In my dojo as in a lot of styles the basic entry is an irimi or irmi tenkan with an atemi to the head of uke while the other hand deflect uke's attacking arm.

This is all well and good, except that, just like other interior entry you always risk running into uke's free hand. Anyone with a good martial foundation will keep the other hand in their front arc ready to protect the face or to counter attack. And the free back leg...

Then I saw this one:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_-EV00Ih70

I really like this exterior entry. Keep you away from both the free arm and leg of uke while positioning you behind and into uke's guard. However I've never seen this before and the vid was too fast for me. The circular downward cut of yokomen is too wide to irimi outside and it's hard to deflect uke's right arm with your left arm like in this vid.

Anyone familiar with an exterior entry for yokomen? Vids appreciated! :)

This entry is easier to do if the yokomen being done does not have a wide arc. If the arc is wide, then you can not irimi big for it would be too hard to move the yokomen to the side with your arm.

Peter Goldsbury
12-06-2013, 04:59 PM
This is how we practice yokomenuchi in France. As you see there's a lot of circular movement. The idea is great pedagogically, to teach proper taisabaki and ma ai, but IMHO not the most effective martially speaking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZef071snTM

Christian was a student of Yamaguchi Seigo Shihan and I too practised with Yamaguchi Shihan for many years and also regularly took ukemi. In the second form Christian blocks his uke and then makes the circular movement, as before. However, you can also do this without blocking and also without the circular movement. M Sekiya, who was also a student of Yamaguchi Shihan, used to teach this form quite regularly when he stayed in the UK. Have you ever discussed the matter of martial effectiveness with Christian T?

Dalaran1991
12-06-2013, 05:22 PM
Well, here in France Christian is considered the "Aikido Prince", and his dojo's waitlist is always full. I've not had a chance to attend one of his seminar as yet. But the way he does it is basically how most of the France's aikido organization does. It is very centralized and not as fragmented as in US. My dojo has no affiliation with Christian's whatsoever but from our Yudanshan who have trained with Christian they say the techniques are the same.

On the subject of effectiveness my Sensei said this technique works very well in an Aikido curriculum, where the attack has a fixed form and people don't really use the free hand. Outside of that I don't know, but I spar regularly with some friends in karate and jujitsu. It's impossible to irimi into their tight inside guard unless you want a hook to the face.

Could you elaborate on how to do that without blocking AND circular movement? Appreciated :)

Dalaran1991
12-06-2013, 05:27 PM
This entry is easier to do if the yokomen being done does not have a wide arc. If the arc is wide, then you can not irimi big for it would be too hard to move the yokomen to the side with your arm.

Exactly what I'm talking about. Still want to find a way to get outside though.

This is what can become the uke nagashi if you go through instead of stepping in on uke like shown in the vid.
We teach to practice slowly, make contact with the arm and then swing in / fold in the elbow joint and lower arm while stepping through.
Hard to describe instead to show. But in the end the steps, the feet are much more important than the deflecting movement of the arms. With some experience it is sometimes able to do this without contact.

I try this today and told my partner that he should kaeshi if possible, see if the technique works. I'm pretty sure I didn't do it well enough, but when I block the arm with the outside hand and atemi with the inside hand to the face (which he blocked), that hand becomes immediately vulnerable to be grabbed by uke's freehand and he did a nikyo on me.

Well, I suppose it's hard to make aikido works if your partner knows what you are doing and is allowed to counter it.

sakumeikan
12-06-2013, 05:33 PM
Christian was a student of Yamaguchi Seigo Shihan and I too practised with Yamaguchi Shihan for many years and also regularly took ukemi. In the second form Christian blocks his uke and then makes the circular movement, as before. However, you can also do this without blocking and also without the circular movement. M Sekiya, who was also a student of Yamaguchi Shihan, used to teach this form quite regularly when he stayed in the UK. Have you ever discussed the matter of martial effectiveness with Christian T?

Hi Peter,
In the first clip Christian absorbs the yokomen , keeping Ukes attacking movement at chudan /Gedan level, then he enters and proceeds with Irimi Nage.The second clip he enters with a forward motion , restrains the attackers arm then , slipping the arm , he then proceeds to again do Irimi nage.Both methods are of course aceptable.Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.
Ps I always thought Sekiya Senseis contact was much more subtle.

mathewjgano
12-06-2013, 06:08 PM
I have a feeling I'm messing up terms and concepts again. Is this along he lines of what you're looking for re: video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3se1IDWbyE

Dalaran1991
12-06-2013, 06:29 PM
I have a feeling I'm messing up terms and concepts again. Is this along he lines of what you're looking for re: video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3se1IDWbyE

This!!! Wish there's a vid where he explains clearly. Thanks man

mathewjgano
12-06-2013, 06:40 PM
This!!! Wish there's a vid where he explains clearly. Thanks man

Sweet! My pleasure!

Michael Hackett
12-06-2013, 08:26 PM
AAA dojo do yokomenuchi entries very much as shown in the Tissier Sensei video. With the second entry it is important to start to take Uke's balance at the moment of contact with his arm. Then, depending on which is more effective, we will cut Uke's arm up or down to lead into the technique. We use the back of the wrist, right at the joint of the hand and wrist to make the initial contact with Uke's arm. From what I've been told, if one were using that entry against a person with a knife, a cut to the back of the wrist would be less disabling than a cut to the inside of the wrist.

kfa4303
12-08-2013, 11:56 AM
.......and that's why soldiers have been shaving their head since the beginning of time. He's also smart to teach them the one technique they can never use on him, or me for that matter. LOL! (i.e. hair grabbing). Baldies rule!

Dalaran1991
12-10-2013, 05:17 AM
.......and that's why soldiers have been shaving their head since the beginning of time. He's also smart to teach them the one technique they can never use on him, or me for that matter. LOL! (i.e. hair grabbing). Baldies rule!

Yep :D Baldies are badasses. Though I did this at dojo grabbing the collar, still very effective. Sensei was pissed though, apparently it's a dangerous throw.

G Sinclair
12-10-2013, 05:46 AM
This is one of the three core deflections in Tenshin Aikido. It is called Ukenagaeshi.

Here is a video of it being used for several techniques:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrr2xWNG4us

Rupert Atkinson
12-12-2013, 06:46 PM
It's a good entry if the yokomen strike is from high - a shallow angle - I like it. But if they do a more horizontal one, or anything below 45 degrees, it becomes more difficult (as you end op further away from uke) and/or you have to duck more, or just do it differently ... like by meeting the strike early and deflecting its power outwards (my favourite).

G Sinclair
12-13-2013, 06:46 AM
It's a good entry if the yokomen strike is from high - a shallow angle - I like it. But if they do a more horizontal one, or anything below 45 degrees, it becomes more difficult (as you end op further away from uke) and/or you have to duck more, or just do it differently ... like by meeting the strike early and deflecting its power outwards (my favourite).

We have two types of yokomen attacks. Our standard (and most common) yokomen comes in flat and from the side just as a hook or round house punch comes in. Our secondary yokomen is called ko yoko and it comes from that 45 degree angle you mention.

Many students who have issues with the flat yokomen stem from not enough motion in the elbow of the deflecting arm. The deflection should be picked up on the inside of the wrist and redirected with the high rotation of the elbow. (Look at about the :22 second mark of that video, you can see uke's yokomen is the flat variety, but no ducking is required.) This feels strange at first but with practice it becomes really natural. Sorry if this seems cryptic, it is much easier to show it / feel it. But its a great deflection, and people love it once they get it.

Good luck. Hope this helps.

Dalaran1991
12-16-2013, 01:36 PM
Hmm cool discussion. Just came back from a vacation seminar with my huge dojo and we did quite a lot of sword work. Sensei explains again that aikido attacks come from sword works, so yokomen = kirigaeshi. So our textbook yokomen strike is exactly 45 degree and run along the diagonal lines of your gi.

So I grabbed a partner with swords and try exterior entry with kirigaeshi. That didn't end so well. Now I actually see the point of an interior entry for yoko.

Dalaran1991
12-16-2013, 01:44 PM
This is one of the three core deflections in Tenshin Aikido. It is called Ukenagaeshi.

Here is a video of it being used for several techniques:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrr2xWNG4us

Cool vid men, I think I can use this for different attacks too

jonreading
12-16-2013, 03:01 PM
We've gotten away from the open angle revolving strike. What we call yokomenuchi is more similar to a shomenuchi that has dropped off-angle to slip a block. This is different than a [more] horizontal cut to the neck region.

I think as a critical evaluation of dealing with the attack, "ducking" below the attack is not your best option. Conditionally, a high, horizontal, oblique strike may present the opportunity for that evasive maneuver. Similarly, you can make an evasive outside maneuver against a vertical oblique strike. But ultimately, I think, we train to enter the space and rotate our partner (not rotate around our partner). My ability to slip outside of the space would be the product of gaining the center space and choosing to move outside; the key difference being my partner's inability to track my movement.

Essentially, irrimi. Probably one of the hardest exercises I do incorrectly since starting training. Right up there with tenkan. Er.. irrimi tenkan.

G Sinclair
12-17-2013, 07:45 AM
Cool vid men, I think I can use this for different attacks too

Yes. It can be used against just about any attack. From a punch to a grab to multiple combinations. Done properly, all the deflections can be used against almost all attacks.

If you are further interested, check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuTHn_gIiGo
At about 5:20 you can see ukenageashi used against a punch to the face. At 6:50 you can see it used against a jab. If you are still watching at about the 10:00 mark you can see it used against a kick punch combo. I am sure there are some other ukenagaeshi deflections mixed in there, but these are the ones that just came to me off the top of my head.

Good luck.

phitruong
12-17-2013, 10:30 AM
Cool vid men, I think I can use this for different attacks too

in wing chun, it's bong sau http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/bruce-lee/images/28319734/title/bruce-with-yip-man-photo. in wing chun, that deflection move usually follows with a strike to the center, so that uke has to deal with it and be busy to think of hitting you again and again.

be careful though, that aikido folks tend to follow that deflection in too close to do technique like kotegaeshi. that would put you in the range of the other person elbow and shoulder and other things. i know aikido folks don't attack with elbow and shoulder and the like, but other arts have no such compulsion. taking an elbow or shoulder strike up close isn't pleasant. i got hit by an internal guy with a shoulder strike at zero-inch. he sent me flying a couple of feet. felt like i was hit by a truck.

Janet Rosen
12-17-2013, 11:46 AM
But ultimately, I think, we train to enter the space and rotate our partner (not rotate around our partner). My ability to slip outside of the space would be the product of gaining the center space and choosing to move outside; the key difference being my partner's inability to track my movement.
Essentially, irrimi. Probably one of the hardest exercises I do incorrectly since starting training. Right up there with tenkan. Er.. irrimi tenkan.

To me that first sentence is the key one. I don't want to dance with my partner any more than I want to stand fast and dispute the space with him; I want to claim the center. Not that I am always successful....but I believe this is energetically and martially the purpose of opening move.