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lipyeow
10-24-2013, 04:31 PM
It's been so quiet here lately that i have been double-dared into making a controversial post.

So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?

If you fail to throw me and make me fall in a graceful aikido way, you just confirmed my statement.

If you throw me around, I would say, that's no aiki, that's just brute force! Hah take that.

So how would you convince me ?

Lipyeow

Demetrio Cereijo
10-24-2013, 04:46 PM
I'm about your size so...

What if I hit you in the head with a bokken? That would be Aikido or not?

CitoMaramba
10-24-2013, 04:51 PM
It's been so quiet here lately that i have been double-dared into making a controversial post.

So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?

If you fail to throw me and make me fall in a graceful aikido way, you just confirmed my statement.

If you throw me around, I would say, that's no aiki, that's just brute force! Hah take that.

So how would you convince me ?

Lipyeow

Hello Master Ken! Is that your intro to your next "Enter the Dojo" video? :D
ryArHjjACBc

sakumeikan
10-24-2013, 04:58 PM
Hello Master Ken! Is that your intro to your next "Enter the Dojo" video? :D
ryArHjjACBc

Inocencio,
Brilliant, my kind of a guy. Master Ken, you are the bees knees!! Joe

jamie yugawa
10-24-2013, 05:05 PM
It's been so quiet here lately that i have been double-dared into making a controversial post.

So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?

If you fail to throw me and make me fall in a graceful aikido way, you just confirmed my statement.

If you throw me around, I would say, that's no aiki, that's just brute force! Hah take that.

So how would you convince me ?

Lipyeow

Well if conventional Aikido waza doesn't work then I would use absorb you into my dantien......No wait thats something else....

Then I would spiral into you with my kua and........no .....that's something else....

Would you just take my word that it works?

Cady Goldfield
10-24-2013, 05:11 PM
Jamie,
You haz to post VIDEO.

Janet Rosen
10-24-2013, 05:25 PM
It's been so quiet here lately that i have been double-dared into making a controversial post.

So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?

If you fail to throw me and make me fall in a graceful aikido way, you just confirmed my statement.

If you throw me around, I would say, that's no aiki, that's just brute force! Hah take that.

So how would you convince me ?

Lipyeow

Why would I care to if you hadn't attacked me?

Chris Li
10-24-2013, 05:32 PM
I would refer them to Minoru Mochizuki:

There was a man named Tadashi Abe who passed away recently. I had the following encounter with him when I visited the Iwama dojo to greet O-Sensei after my return to Japan when the war ended. O-Sensei was pleased to know that I had come back safely and welcomed me warmly. I stayed there over night. That night an evil-looking man with a monk-like hairstyle came to the room where I was staying and asked permission to come in. When I gave him permission this man came in.

“My name is Tadashi Abe. Sensei, could I ask you a direct question?”. I told him to ask me anything. He asked if I was really studying aiki jujutsu seriously. At that time the art was not yet called aikido. When I replied I was, he said:

“Are you really? I have heard about you, Sensei, for a long time. I heard that you have had experience in actual fighting situations. I think it is strange that a person like you feels satisfied with an art like aiki jujutsu.” When I asked why he thought so he said that Ueshiba Sensei or Mr. Morhiro Saito would not be able to stand against him in a match even for three minutes because he would defeat them with one blow.

“You’re quite boastful, aren’t you?”, I replied. “You feel confident that you can defeat Ueshiba Sensei?”, I added. He said that he thought it would be easy for him to defeat Sensei and added:

“Although I have been observing Ueshiba Sensei for a long time, I don’t feel like practicing an art like aiki jujutsu. I feel confident that I can defeat him with one boxing punch. I hear that you emphasize actual fighting. Is that true?”

I replied as follows:

“I have been in many street-fights but I wouldn’t include them in the category of actual fighting. I have also drawn a sword and stormed the enemy camp.”

Then he asked me whether or not aikido was really useful for fighting. When I replied that aikido was very useful not only for fights but also in times of war, he said my answer didn’t convince him. So I suggested that he attack me and stood there telling him to come anyway he wanted. He asked me to adopt a ready stance. I told him:

“Don’t say unnecessary things. There is no way for someone to defeat his enemy if he tells him what to do. Attack me as you like!”

Abe still mumbled: “Sensei, can I really strike you? Strange… You have openings everywhere…” Then he took a stance and suddenly came straight in. I dodged the blow and kicked him with my leg. He groaned and fell. I applied a resuscitation technique and massaged him.

“How can a person like you who faints when he catches a little kick last in a fight?”

“Sensei, does aikido also have kicking techniques?”

“You fool! What do you mean by such a question? We use kicking techniques or anything else. I even used artillery. Martial arts, guns and artillery are all aikido. What do you think aikido is? Do you think it involves only the twisting of hands? It is a means of war… an act of war! aikido is a fight with real swords. We use the word ‘aiki’ because through it we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately. Look at Sumo. After the command is given (“Miatte! Miatte!), they stand up and go at each other in a flash. That’s the same as aiki. When a person suddenly faces his enemy in an mental state free from all ideas and thoughts and is instantly able to deal with him, we call that aiki. In the old days it was called ‘aiki no jutsu’. Therefore, artillery or anything else becomes aiki.” “Is that so… I think I understand.” “If you still don’t understand, come to me again.” After that he was afraid of me and bowed to me from far off. When I went to Europe he asked me to take him as well.

:D

Best,

Chris

Cady Goldfield
10-24-2013, 05:36 PM
Chris,
Great story! :D

Michael Varin
10-24-2013, 07:21 PM
Chris,

That quote is still coming up with funny characters just like every time you post it. . . And I have a new computer!

But the main point of that story is in my signature line.

I like it.

More people should read it carefully.

Cady Goldfield
10-24-2013, 07:30 PM
There is even more to that statement than meets the eye. Awareness is a major factor (and it's a cultivated skill) in what makes aiki effective.

Chris Li
10-24-2013, 07:31 PM
Chris,

That quote is still coming up with funny characters just like every time you post it. . . And I have a new computer!

But the main point of that story is in my signature line.

I like it.

More people should read it carefully.

Something with the forum software and unicode, I think - well, too late to edit now!

I don't necessarily disagree with that line - but I think that it's an effect rather than a cause - that is, that it's discussing something that may (or may not, depending on how you look at the whole issue) occur through Aiki, but doesn't really describe the process of how to produce that effect.

One of my favorite talks with Sam Chin was about the difference between cause and effect, and how they are not necessarily very similar.

Best,

Chris

Bill Danosky
10-24-2013, 10:51 PM
Chris, loved the story. That is MY O Sensei.

Regarding the OP, I'd say, "Yeah. I just use it to practice the throws and joint locks. Want to see some of them? Come to practice."

Michael Varin
10-24-2013, 11:42 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with that line - but I think that it's an effect rather than a cause - that is, that it's discussing something that may (or may not, depending on how you look at the whole issue) occur through Aiki, but doesn't really describe the process of how to produce that effect.

One of my favorite talks with Sam Chin was about the difference between cause and effect, and how they are not necessarily very similar.

Interesting perspective; I will have to ponder it a bit more.

But at this point I think it's off the mark.

There are a number of things stated in that story that point to something that is a pre-contact, "mental" skill, one of relationship. And really nothing that indicated any concerns for structure, connections in the body, generating power, etc. The way in which he mentions the use of guns and artillery could lead one to believe that the use of the body itself is not even an element of this skill.

Obviously nothing in the story can be said to be a "how to," but more of a "what is."

You fool! What do you mean by such a question? We use kicking techniques or anything else. I even used artillery. Martial arts, guns and artillery are all aikido. What do you think aikido is? Do you think it involves only the twisting of hands? It is a means of war an act of war! aikido is a fight with real swords. We use the word aiki' because through it we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately. Look at Sumo. After the command is given ("Miatte! Miatte!), they stand up and go at each other in a flash. That's the same as aiki. When a person suddenly faces his enemy in an mental state free from all ideas and thoughts and is instantly able to deal with him, we call that aiki. In the old days it was called aiki no jutsu'. Therefore, artillery or anything else becomes aiki.

So maybe Mochizuki knew, maybe he didn't. I don't know!

Michael Varin
10-24-2013, 11:45 PM
Chris,

One more thing.

You have posted that story a number of times. You must like it.

How do you interpret it?

Here I go hijacking another thread :cool:

Chris Li
10-25-2013, 01:55 AM
Interesting perspective; I will have to ponder it a bit more.

But at this point I think it's off the mark.

There are a number of things stated in that story that point to something that is a pre-contact, "mental" skill, one of relationship. And really nothing that indicated any concerns for structure, connections in the body, generating power, etc. The way in which he mentions the use of guns and artillery could lead one to believe that the use of the body itself is not even an element of this skill.

Obviously nothing in the story can be said to be a "how to," but more of a "what is."

So you have a mental skill - how do you get there? Ueshiba came to it through the body and intent - he said as much in Takemusu Aiki, where it's both defined classically and linked to various mental dimensions.

Are there effects that can be used without the body? Sure, but I could say the same for weightlifting. That doesn't mean that the process that creates those effects doesn't work through the body.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
10-25-2013, 01:58 AM
Chris,

One more thing.

You have posted that story a number of times. You must like it.

How do you interpret it?

Here I go hijacking another thread :cool:

I just like the point it makes which echoes Kisshomaru's comment that "my father was not a pacifist". Also, the point that Aikido is not a technical method in the sense of a particular type of joint manipulation. The mental dimension he mentions is interesting, but not all that useful, IMO, unless you hook it up with the right background.

Best,

Chris

PaulF
10-25-2013, 03:50 AM
So how would you convince me ?


I wouldn't try, we're all entitled to our opinions and I'm not much of a proselytiser :)

Demetrio Cereijo
10-25-2013, 03:58 AM
What I find funny about this Mochizuki story is he doesn't mention how frenchies were somehow inmune to his aikido and his judo/karate background saving his ass.

Budd
10-25-2013, 05:48 AM
A fair question. I'm only about 5'8" but I'm fairly solidly constructed so have gotten the "brute force assertion" more than once. (And size does matter, no matter what they say, uhm)

But a fairly simple thing is to have a simple hands on shoulder connection, remove their connection to the ground in the subtlest way your skill allows, such that they stagger and have to take a step. You can say, "That thar is Aiki!". The same thing gets applied in locks, throws and strikes, yippee. (For the judo purists it's the subtler setup to kuzushi than more observable timing and pressure set ups)

phitruong
10-25-2013, 06:03 AM
So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?


my answer: yup! it's all BS! we like wearing funny skirt and some of us might even shave our legs. what else you got?

lbb
10-25-2013, 08:06 AM
So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?

I wouldn't, because you wouldn't. Come up to me out of the blue and start spouting, that is. We have a name for people like that around here: we call them "street crazies", and if you've lived in a city, you can spot 'em and do the swerve and leave 'em explaining their conspiracy theory to the air.

Rob Watson
10-25-2013, 12:40 PM
I dodged the blow and kicked him with my leg.

Are we sure this was translated correctly? Maybe "sweep the leg"? Come on ... that is funny!

Chris Li
10-25-2013, 12:48 PM
Are we sure this was translated correctly? Maybe "sweep the leg"? Come on ... that is funny!

Hmm...not sure, but Mochizuki trained with Funakoshi, so a kick seems likely...

Best,

Chris

Shadowfax
10-25-2013, 01:45 PM
So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?

I wouldn't bother to try. Your problem with aikido is not my problem.

lipyeow
10-25-2013, 03:26 PM
*snipped*

Would you just take my word that it works?

you mean "Aiki" is a religion ? Believe and you will be saved ? :-)

Chris, very nice story.... again ... trying to convince me by anecdotes/parables .... make "aiki" more like a religion ...

what happen to those folks who say that come touch my sensei and you will know/recognize "aiki" ? What does "aiki" feel like ?

Lipyeow

ps. i'm just trying to stir up discussion ... i'm not really an asshole.

Chris Li
10-25-2013, 03:37 PM
you mean "Aiki" is a religion ? Believe and you will be saved ? :-)

Chris, very nice story.... again ... trying to convince me by anecdotes/parables .... make "aiki" more like a religion ...

what happen to those folks who say that come touch my sensei and you will know/recognize "aiki" ? What does "aiki" feel like ?

Lipyeow

ps. i'm just trying to stir up discussion ... i'm not really an asshole.

My point was - Minoru Mochizuki wouldn't have accepted the two initial premises:


If you fail to throw me and make me fall in a graceful aikido way, you just confirmed my statement.

If you throw me around, I would say, that's no aiki, that's just brute force! Hah take that.


He would have just smacked them. :D

"My father was not a pacifist."
- Kisshomaru Ueshiba

Here's what Morihei said to Rinjiro Shirata after Shirata smacked down a challenger in the dojo:

“Idiot! Can’t you go a little easier?”

Morihei, who happened to be present, thundered at Rinjiro. But this was just for the visitor, who had suffered harsh damage. After sending him away hobbling with a stick, Morihei said, “Well done. That was good.”

Best,

Chris

jamie yugawa
10-25-2013, 03:59 PM
you mean "Aiki" is a religion ? Believe and you will be saved ? :-)

Well sure!!! Grab my hand....no not like that......thats too hard......do you call that a grab......you are supposed to move here.....noooooo like this......send your ki past Pluto ....no northward....try these magic beans.....now do you believe me?!??!!

Demetrio Cereijo
10-25-2013, 04:08 PM
you mean "Aiki" is a religion ? Believe and you will be saved ? :-).
Mantra #1: Aikido is the religion that is not a religion; it perfects and completes all religions.

jamie yugawa
10-25-2013, 04:26 PM
Mantra #2. Aikido is the art of peace and harmony.......unless..... you aren't in our group......grab too hard.....attack too hard.....are practicing martially.....do that IP stuffs with those Harden, Akuzawa or Chin fellows....pant...pant....don't follow my hand....I am running out of breath...

lipyeow
10-25-2013, 05:30 PM
I think Chris made a good point.

If Aikido is a martial art, then we have to go back to that primal way of demonstration -- can it win a fight -- brute force or not. As opposed to this "looking for mysterious aiki" chasing after the wind ...

But if we claim that "Aiki" is something greater, something approaching philosophy which seems to be what i think some modern aikidoka are claiming, then perhaps that primal way of demonstration is not the best way to showcase the art....

Lipyeow

Demetrio Cereijo
10-25-2013, 05:40 PM
But if we claim that "Aiki" is something greater, something approaching philosophy ...

Do you think philosophy is greater than beating people?

phitruong
10-25-2013, 05:48 PM
Do you think philosophy is greater than beating people?

what if the people you beat are philosophers, would it make beating greater?

sorry Demetrio. after a few philosophy courses in college, i wanted to beat them so badly! They drove me crazy, with the "i think therefore i am" or the "if i slap myself in the forest, would i make a sound" crap. :D

Cady Goldfield
10-25-2013, 05:59 PM
Lipyeow... "Aiki" is the Unifying the Mental with the Physical inside yourself. Then, it becomes Unifying Yourself with the Opponent.

Ueshiba's Aiki was that. However, his son Kisshomaru eliminated the internal elements from the modernized approach to aikido that became the Aikikai method... which was the mainstream, mass-introduced aikido sent out around the world by the young missionary teachers who were rapidly trained and promoted in that new version.

Without the internal methology that provided stable, unified power and connectivity, and peng, the new aikido had to devise a new strategy to make the existing waza work. Instead of being able to stick into, draw in and "smother" to control the opponent (old Daito-ryu strategy), aikido training became mainly about using a combination of externally driven evasive movements and mental manipulation of the opponent to lead him into overreaching his limits (his center or one-point) when attacking (no 13 points to hold his alignment and structure), so that he loses his own center and is thus easier to control and manipulate.

Joint locks and pins are also used, but without aiki to power it (which would control the opponent's entire frame, structure and center. Locks and pins using aiki make it possible to freeze the opponent's frame and movement without needing to use pain.), the user must rely on timing, leverage and pain compliance.

This is NOT necessarily a bad thing. In my observation, aikido, at its higher levels, can work very well against an unsuspecting opponent who is not "internally" trained. With the right training, someone absolutely can become a master at leading the mind of an attacker, and thus his body, and hone timing to an exquisite level. Even though the powering methods are external, mastering the mental aspects goes a long way to making aikido waza work, IMO. Also, there are some vestiges of Teh Internalz that manifest themselves in "jin tricks" (e.g. the arm as a hose full of water... etc.) and some of the kokyu training that can lend some aspect of power and structure to aikido. But having the full monty of aiki and IP would add so much more...

The problem is that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, so students can put too much faith in intermediate-level experience. What works in careful training in the dojo might not be street-ready yet. And that's one reason not to be overly compliant in the dojo. Failure is an important learning tool. The sensitivity it takes to be able to lead minds into a hole, takes years to master. Especially minds of attackers who are not aikidoka, or who are psychotic, and want to take your head off.

Okay, that's it for me, for injecting additional controversy to this Controversial Thread, which Lipyeow, started by whacking the hornets' nest with a stout stick. :D

Cady Goldfield
10-25-2013, 06:03 PM
what if the people you beat are philosophers, would it make beating greater?

sorry Demetrio. after a few philosophy courses in college, i wanted to beat them so badly! They drove me crazy, with the "i think therefore i am" or the "if i slap myself in the forest, would i make a sound" crap. :D

Oh, gawd. Freshman year, I signed up for a Philosophy 101 course, and the prof assigned a stack of books 6 feet high. I couldn't afford them all and dropped the course after the first class. The prof was an arrogant S.O.B. anyway, so some of the other students who stuck with the course probably did have fantasies about beating the guy.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-25-2013, 06:21 PM
what if the people you beat are philosophers, would it make beating greater?
Beating philosophers should be considered 'statutory self defense'.

Cady Goldfield
10-25-2013, 06:45 PM
Beating philosophers should be considered 'statutory self defense'.

I classify them in the same category as street mimes.

akiy
10-25-2013, 06:47 PM
As outlined in this announcement (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22167), please be sure to start a new thread if you wish to discuss aikido internal training in the Internal Training in Aikido (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=81) forum.

-- Jun

Demetrio Cereijo
10-25-2013, 06:51 PM
Street mimes should be hung upside down in a scorpion pit opposite a sign that says 'Learn The Words'

Cady Goldfield
10-25-2013, 06:53 PM
Street mimes should be hung upside down in a scorpion pit opposite a sign that says 'Learn The Words'

You're being too kind.

Janet Rosen
10-25-2013, 10:00 PM
Street mimes should be hung upside down in a scorpion pit opposite a sign that says 'Learn The Words'

This should also apply to Aikido Uke-Mimes who have to precede their attacks with huge telegraphed gestures indicating what they are about to do, like they are playing Charades - I always want to respond to this by shouting out "three syllables! must be katetori!"

Michael Varin
10-26-2013, 12:26 AM
Mantra #2. Aikido is the art of peace and harmony.......unless..... you aren't in our group......grab too hard.....attack too hard.....are practicing martially.....do that IP stuffs with those Harden, Akuzawa or Chin fellows....pant...pant....don't follow my hand....I am running out of breath...

If we adopt Phi's grammar and spelling we are all lost!

Please, I beg you. It's the only thing I hate more than "vetted."

Michael Varin
10-26-2013, 12:29 AM
Lipyeow... "Aiki" is the Unifying the Mental with the Physical inside yourself. Then, it becomes Unifying Yourself with the Opponent.

Ueshiba's Aiki was that. However, his son Kisshomaru eliminated the internal elements from the modernized approach to aikido that became the Aikikai method... which was the mainstream, mass-introduced aikido sent out around the world by the young missionary teachers who were rapidly trained and promoted in that new version.

Without the internal methology that provided stable, unified power and connectivity, and peng, the new aikido had to devise a new strategy to make the existing waza work. Instead of being able to stick into, draw in and "smother" to control the opponent (old Daito-ryu strategy), aikido training became mainly about using a combination of externally driven evasive movements and mental manipulation of the opponent to lead him into overreaching his limits (his center or one-point) when attacking (no 13 points to hold his alignment and structure), so that he loses his own center and is thus easier to control and manipulate.

Joint locks and pins are also used, but without aiki to power it (which would control the opponent's entire frame, structure and center. Locks and pins using aiki make it possible to freeze the opponent's frame and movement without needing to use pain.), the user must rely on timing, leverage and pain compliance.

This is NOT necessarily a bad thing. In my observation, aikido, at its higher levels, can work very well against an unsuspecting opponent who is not "internally" trained. With the right training, someone absolutely can become a master at leading the mind of an attacker, and thus his body, and hone timing to an exquisite level. Even though the powering methods are external, mastering the mental aspects goes a long way to making aikido waza work, IMO. Also, there are some vestiges of Teh Internalz that manifest themselves in "jin tricks" (e.g. the arm as a hose full of water... etc.) and some of the kokyu training that can lend some aspect of power and structure to aikido. But having the full monty of aiki and IP would add so much more...

The problem is that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, so students can put too much faith in intermediate-level experience. What works in careful training in the dojo might not be street-ready yet. And that's one reason not to be overly compliant in the dojo. Failure is an important learning tool. The sensitivity it takes to be able to lead minds into a hole, takes years to master. Especially minds of attackers who are not aikidoka, or who are psychotic, and want to take your head off.

Okay, that's it for me, for injecting additional controversy to this Controversial Thread, which Lipyeow, started by whacking the hornets' nest with a stout stick. :D

Where does Saito's view of Ueshiba's aikido fit into all of this? I mean, he was likely his closest student, even if everybody just figures he was a dumb country boy.

Chris Li
10-26-2013, 01:19 AM
Where does Saito's view of Ueshiba's aikido fit into all of this? I mean, he was likely his closest student, even if everybody just figures he was a dumb country boy.

"Closest" is really a red herring - I could argue that for a number of people from various points of view (and those people have indeed made those arguments). Anyway, my guess would be that he would have been in favor of the "outside-in" approach of building Aiki through repeated kata training - that approach favored his personality and his training situation. Of course, Ueshiba was known to teach different people in different ways.

My personal experience with him, and with some looking back in hindsight, would be that he had a lot of stuff, but probably lacked a way to explain the "universal field theory" behind what was going on, and that much of what he was doing and showing was influenced and restricted by his overwhelming desire to preserve the precise external form of his training as faithfully as possible (not a bad thing, but it has its drawbacks).

Best,

Chris

Michael Varin
10-26-2013, 02:06 AM
"Closest" is really a red herring - I could argue that for a number of people from various points of view (and those people have indeed made those arguments). Anyway, my guess would be that he would have been in favor of the "outside-in" approach of building Aiki through repeated kata training - that approach favored his personality and his training situation. Of course, Ueshiba was known to teach different people in different ways.

My personal experience with him, and with some looking back in hindsight, would be that he had a lot of stuff, but probably lacked a way to explain the "universal field theory" behind what was going on, and that much of what he was doing and showing was influenced and restricted by his overwhelming desire to preserve the precise external form of his training as faithfully as possible (not a bad thing, but it has its drawbacks).

Best,

Chris

My teacher who spent seven years in Iwama as an uchi and soto deshi always said he felt kind of bad for Saito because he strove to maintain someone else's practice. I understood that and yet I can't say I agree at this point in time. I would almost thank him for it.

But your point is well taken.

Walter Martindale
10-26-2013, 05:28 AM
what if the people you beat are philosophers, would it make beating greater?

sorry Demetrio. after a few philosophy courses in college, i wanted to beat them so badly! They drove me crazy, with the "i think therefore i am" or the "if i slap myself in the forest, would i make a sound" crap. :D

Shouldn't it be "I think I think, therefore I think I am?" Who really knows if there's anything there - I see an outline of a person at the front of the classroom but is it really a philosophy professor, my imagination, or just some idiot who babbles on about nothing...
:crazy:

Michael Hackett
10-26-2013, 08:14 PM
The only way to determine that Walter is to see if he asks you if you want fries with your order.

aikidark
10-26-2013, 08:41 PM
I think Chris made a good point.

If Aikido is a martial art, then we have to go back to that primal way of demonstration -- can it win a fight -- brute force or not. As opposed to this "looking for mysterious aiki" chasing after the wind ...

Lipyeow

I am interested in this mysterious aiki. Do you know any good teachers of this style? Maybe point to some of their websites or videos? Maybe recomend where one can train with them?

aikidark
10-26-2013, 08:44 PM
my answer: yup! it's all BS! we like wearing funny skirt and some of us might even shave our legs. what else you got?

I don't wear the skirt yet, and I only shave one leg.

lipyeow
10-31-2013, 04:15 PM
A fair question. I'm only about 5'8" but I'm fairly solidly constructed so have gotten the "brute force assertion" more than once. (And size does matter, no matter what they say, uhm)

But a fairly simple thing is to have a simple hands on shoulder connection, remove their connection to the ground in the subtlest way your skill allows, such that they stagger and have to take a step. You can say, "That thar is Aiki!". The same thing gets applied in locks, throws and strikes, yippee. (For the judo purists it's the subtler setup to kuzushi than more observable timing and pressure set ups)

Let's get back to the original question. I am actually only half-joking. On a more serious note, what are good "demonstrations" for someone who shows up at your dojo ?

What Budd has suggested reminds me of the first time my Sifu, Sam Chin, placed his hands on me. It didn't feel heavy, but the ground beneath my feet seem to be wobbling and everything i tried seems to be useless.


However, his son Kisshomaru eliminated the internal elements from the modernized approach to aikido that became the Aikikai method... which was the mainstream, mass-introduced aikido sent out around the world by the young missionary teachers who were rapidly trained and promoted in that new version.

The other thing that i think we need to be realistic about is that we live in an age where martial art as a pure fighting art is fast losing relevance -- how many of us have to actually be in a real fight for survival on a daily basis ? So i think it is not a bad idea that martial arts evolve to maintain some semblance of relevance. What Kisshomaru did was one possible way of evolving the art -- perhaps not to the liking of some of us. What other ways of evolution would we like to see ?

Lipyeow

ryback
10-31-2013, 09:52 PM
It's been so quiet here lately that i have been double-dared into making a controversial post.

So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?

If you fail to throw me and make me fall in a graceful aikido way, you just confirmed my statement.

If you throw me around, I would say, that's no aiki, that's just brute force! Hah take that.

So how would you convince me ?

Lipyeow
Well first of all, I wouldn't try to convince you, other people's ideas do not effect my practice.
But let's say that I had to answer, just for argument's sake.
Failing to throw you gracefully wouldn't be on my part, it takes practice for the uke to be able to follow even the most severe techniques in a graceful ukemi, that's part of the art.
So, if someone had this argument, I would apply my techniques, land him flat on his ass, and then let him moan about my...brute strength.
The ignorant's opinion has no value, but his ass would know the answer...

Cady Goldfield
11-01-2013, 07:30 AM
The ignorant's opinion has no value, but his ass would know the answer...

:D

Cady Goldfield
11-01-2013, 07:37 AM
The other thing that i think we need to be realistic about is that we live in an age where martial art as a pure fighting art is fast losing relevance -- how many of us have to actually be in a real fight for survival on a daily basis ? So i think it is not a bad idea that martial arts evolve to maintain some semblance of relevance. What Kisshomaru did was one possible way of evolving the art -- perhaps not to the liking of some of us. What other ways of evolution would we like to see ?

Lipyeow

This is a good point, and others have raised it in the past. Many aikido practitioners are not in it for the martial applications, in any way. They use it as a vehicle for other things, such as artistic self-expression. In that regard, as long as there is no misperception that one is practicing a pragmatic martial skill, then there is no issue at all.

For those who do practice aikido as a martial art, the lack of the internal method in modern aikido has not rendered it unusable as a martial skill. Another skill set has replaced the internals, and it is workable for different reasons. The art has taken on a new life in different directions, and that is a natural evolution of nearly all arts and disciplines.

Aikibu
11-01-2013, 08:08 PM
It's been so quiet here lately that i have been double-dared into making a controversial post.

So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?

If you fail to throw me and make me fall in a graceful aikido way, you just confirmed my statement.

If you throw me around, I would say, that's no aiki, that's just brute force! Hah take that.

So how would you convince me ?

Lipyeow

LMAO...Not like that question has not been posed before by dudes of all sizes. My answer, "You might be right", and smile. Responses to that answer have varied over the years from folks then attacking you (and thus hearing another common phrase Hey! That's not Aikido! LOL) to those folks walking away with a smile thinking they've "won" the argument... never realizing I have conceded nothing to advance their premise. Terry Dobson called this verbal Aiki, and I agree with his book that all budo has an application beyond "fighting" Indeed the very purpose of Budo and Aikido in my experience is to get beyond "just fighting". Perhaps as a combat application some arts are losing their luster... oh well. Personally I know my Aikido does not suck, that is until I meet the man who sucks less than me. ;) ( and we all will meet that person.. in droves ) LOL. If that's the only way I choose to measure any art well heck!!! I'll just get a concealed carry.... keep practicing my combat pistol skills (since the only objective of "combat" is to prevail and would you know it some dude shows up with an assault rifle, or calls in an airstrike!), and quit trying to better myself through Budo. :)

William Hazen

JP3
03-02-2014, 02:57 PM
RE Original Post:

I'd take you out for beers, and once we'd had too many, we'd be so good friends that you'd have forgotten your aggressive, combative & argumentative position you used at the outset of the confrontation, and we'd be friends.

Then, the next day, I'd call you up and say, "How'd you like that aikido demo I showed you last night?"

There you go.

Ecosamurai
03-03-2014, 09:37 AM
The original post made me think of an old quote from an instructor whose name has escaped me at present, but I think this instructor was a student of Chiba Sensei, or possibly Chiba Sensei himself:

"He said there were no strikes in aikido, so I hit him again" :D

PeterR
03-03-2014, 11:04 AM
Hard to get excited over statements like that its like the old joke.

Man: Doctor it hurts when I do that.
Doctor: Well don't do it.

The great thing about aikiweb is you can go back and read what you said when you actually cared that someone outside of your little thing thought.

Back then I said if you choose a sub-set of techniques, drill and train for effect and the learning curve is as fast as any art. I still stand by that statement even though I am even less inclined to put it into practice. I like the variation and, my inner sadist aside, am really not worried about meeting the mythical street fighter.

SteveTrinkle
03-03-2014, 01:57 PM
OK,but, please tell me again why I want to convince you....

PeterR
03-04-2014, 07:38 AM
Let me be the first
CdQc79oBNgI

dps
03-04-2014, 08:57 PM
If you fail to throw me and make me fall in a graceful aikido way, you just confirmed my statement.

Lipyeow

If you attack me and I throw you, I don't give crap how you land, not falling gracefully is your fault.

kewms
04-06-2014, 12:17 AM
The longer I train, the less interested I am in this kind of question.

If you're going to really, seriously attack me, then you're not a friend and so I don't much care what your opinion of aikido is. I'm going to handle the situation to the best of my ability and let the chips fall where they may.

If you're a friend, or someone else who is politely curious, I'll invite you to the dojo and let you draw your own conclusions.

If you're a student in my class, I might demonstrate some of the less polite variations that lie inside the basic techniques.

If you're a random person on the internet, I'll just yawn and go looking for more cat videos.

Katherine

mathewjgano
04-06-2014, 01:55 PM
If you fail to throw me and make me fall in a graceful aikido way, you just confirmed my statement.

If you throw me around, I would say, that's no aiki, that's just brute force! Hah take that.

So how would you convince me ?

Lipyeow
I don't know that I would. "Convincing" is like making the proverbial horse drink water; only it can choose to drink. There's a fine line between trying to convince someone and simply making your case...which to my mind also seems to reflect something about the nature of Aikido, as I've come to think of it. The proof is in the pudding. If I'm able to throw someone around and they say it's just brute force, I guess I'd ask them to throw me around without any brute force. At the end of it all we might not agree about what is what, but at least we'd able to enjoy comparing our respective recipes for pudding.
I would say that tori being able to make aite fall in a graceful way depends largely on aite being able to engage his or her body, but also it depends on a relatively high level of skill on the part of tori, particularly as the intensity increases. "Graceful" is a relative term. If I manage to plant an attacker on his butt, compared to his head, that seems comparatively graceful to me.
I was skeptical of some Aikido movements (note I didn't say "Aikido" itself, which is a much bigger animal and much harder to pin down), and it was only through sustained practice that I learned (something) about the usefulness of those movements.

snowy
05-13-2014, 05:01 AM
Why would I care to if you hadn't attacked me?
May i say as a beginner of aikido but a person with experience of life, aikido reply. :D
Also may i add if you truly believe in what you do in life, such comments dont matter because you know the truth as you see it

Phil Van Treese
06-04-2014, 03:00 PM
Aikido is BS? Come to my class and convince me, PLEASE!!!! I'd enjoy it----you wouldn't though.

lbb
06-05-2014, 06:10 AM
Don't feed the trolls, don't raise the zombies.

GMaroda
06-05-2014, 06:25 AM
Don't feed the trolls, don't raise the zombies.

Let's see, fire kills trolls but set zombies on fire and you only get firey zombies. Trolls regenerate otherwise, but zombies rot. I'm so confused!

sakumeikan
06-05-2014, 06:30 AM
Dear All,
Surely like most activities Aikido is both Genuine/B.S?Some Aikido is great , some aikido is rubbish.At the end of the day it is important for the future of aikido that the right choice is made.
Cheers, Joe

JP3
06-15-2014, 09:56 AM
It's been so quiet here lately that i have been double-dared into making a controversial post.

( ... deletions ....)

So how would you convince me ?w

I'd probably shrug and ask you if you had Netflix, and tell you to watch Above the Law or something.

At this point, I'm not absolutely positive that what I do is aikido or not, because so many people keep telling me that aikido is BS and doesn't work, and what I do does work, so it must not be aikido. It Must be something else that does work, I guess.

fatebass21
12-15-2014, 10:00 PM
By trying to convince you any one of us would be going against the reasons we train aikido.

dps
12-16-2014, 04:09 PM
The original post made me think of an old quote from an instructor whose name has escaped me at present, but I think this instructor was a student of Chiba Sensei, or possibly Chiba Sensei himself:

"He said there were no strikes in aikido, so I hit him again" :D

I was sparring with an higher ranked person and slipped in an uppercut. He stopped the sparring and said, "You can't do that." I said, " I just did." lol.

dps

Rupert Atkinson
12-16-2014, 04:51 PM
The reason most people start a martial art is because they want to defend themselves. They have many choices but instead of advising them of their choices we just try to reel them in like a fish. For people who want instant self-defence Aikido is mostly BS. But many want more than that. At the other extreme, we have people who have done violent martial arts for years and have just gotten tired of it - for them Aikido is the ultimate mystery and they love it, though they would never be able to explain it.