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Bill Danosky
09-16-2013, 08:53 AM
Solid, martial techniques for me- Hiji Shime, Ude Garami, lots of Ikka jo (Ikkyo) and of course Irimi Nage. Working on my Kote Gaeshi for vs. weapon. I didn't used to think Shiho Nage, but lately...

Robert Cheshire
09-16-2013, 08:58 AM
Dim Mak

grondahl
09-16-2013, 09:42 AM
Ki(mchi) blasts.

Keith Larman
09-16-2013, 10:06 AM
"When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Been doing it too long to focus on any one thing. Mostly I just practice.

Neal Earhart
09-16-2013, 10:24 AM
Movement....

bkedelen
09-16-2013, 10:36 AM
See what I was talking about, Bill? Waza is the least part of Aikido's contribution to surviving physical conflict.

Violence is the most toxic environment known to man. Aikido is not a mechanism for enabling its adepts to participate in violence. It is a method of reducing other people's power over you to absolutely nothing (Chris' translations discuss this at great length) so that they cannot stop you in any way. There is no violence in this and there are no techniques involved. The techniques are just an environment for you to stress test this skill and thus improve your ability to bring it to bear under adverse conditions.

phitruong
09-16-2013, 11:43 AM
glock or smith-wesson waza and following zombie land rule #2 - double tap. but don't forget rule #1: cardio. and rule #14: always carry a change of underwear in case of code brown situation. :D

Keith Larman
09-16-2013, 12:50 PM
See what I was talking about, Bill? Waza is the least part of Aikido's contribution to surviving physical conflict.

Violence is the most toxic environment known to man. Aikido is not a mechanism for enabling its adepts to participate in violence. It is a method of reducing other people's power over you to absolutely nothing (Chris' translations discuss this at great length) so that they cannot stop you in any way. There is no violence in this and there are no techniques involved. The techniques are just an environment for you to stress test this skill and thus improve your ability to bring it to bear under adverse conditions.

What he said... Aikido waza are for me like the little foot outlines they put on the floor to teach someone how to do a dance move. Foot here, then right foot there, then turn a bit. That ain't dancing, it's attempting to get you to move in a certain way to hopefully feel and develop a certain thing that can manifest itself no matter what's happening. And doing the dance moves over and over again does not mean you can dance. That's something else entirely. Yeah, you've got to go *through* those steps, *through* that process, but there's no guarantee you'll ever dance well as a general proposition.

So I just focus on doing things that I feel I don't do as well as I should. Because I'm "failing" that stress test in my mind and it reveals a hole in my ability. So I train more. And more. And frankly do whatever the instructor is teaching or whatever my own students request. Because it's all of it that matters.

But then again there are levels involved in this as well. Frankly prior experience in things like Judo and Krav Maga I find would be easiest to teach someone to be able to handle themselves asap. But I've been at this way too long now to worry about ASAP -- that ship sailed a long time ago.

James Sawers
09-16-2013, 02:29 PM
Dim Sum...

lbb
09-16-2013, 02:50 PM
"Fergus spake these words and he said, This shall be my creed, whereby shall I live my life, as it were a shining example of Virtue and Excellence, well worthy to be enshrined in Heaven as a model for all who are wise to follow. My creed shall into three parts, like Gaul, be divided. Firstly, I shall constrain myself to Mind My Own Business. Secondly, I shall endeavour at all times and in all places to Keep My Nose Clean by the most expedient possible means. Thirdly, and finally, I shall always exercise the utmost care to Keep My Hands To Myself."

Rob Watson
09-16-2013, 06:12 PM
Bad guys don't need waza ...

Chris Covington
09-16-2013, 07:27 PM
Because of my job I deal with "bad guys" more than the average budoka I guess. Studying "this technique" or "that kata" with the intent to prepare yourself for a bad guy isn't helpful. When the moment comes you do what you do. In the real world I have done kata (or pieces of them) that I don't really like or care for that much ; when I was in the moment they were what needed to happen.

When I studied judo I had a few throws that were my signature throws (tomoenage, hizagaruma and haraigoshi were my top three). I'd win nearly all of my matches with them (or lose trying to pull them off). Talk about having a hammer and seeing only nails! If I lost it didn't really matter because all that got injured was my pride. After being in the "real world" I understand I cannot have such favoritism. Study each kata with dedication because you never known when you might have to pull it off.

When I have finished with a hands on situation I have never looked back and thought I should have spent more time rolling, more time on conditioning or anything like that. I always wish I had spent more time training kata. YMMV.

For what it is worth I've found myself in a position to use kamatezume (a Daito-ryu nakajo kata) a lot here lately (another kata I never spent as much time with...). Whatever works I guess.

Aikiwarrior
09-16-2013, 09:45 PM
Atemi waza. Speed and power.

IvLabush
09-17-2013, 02:59 AM
"No design, no conception" as Musashi wrote down.

Offtopic.
Why aikido Yoshinkan practitioners often are aggressive in discussion? I mentioned it in Post-Soviet Union field also.

bkedelen
09-17-2013, 08:42 AM
Why aikido Yoshinkan practitioners often are aggressive in discussion?

Save it pal. We stopped discussing different styles of aikido as if they were personality types long ago.

JO
09-17-2013, 10:26 AM
All of them or none, depending on my mood.

Cliff Judge
09-17-2013, 10:42 AM
I don't believe in bad guys.

IvLabush
09-17-2013, 11:35 AM
Save it pal.
It wasn't attempt of provocation but truly wondering to people on other side of planet acting same way.

SeiserL
09-17-2013, 04:40 PM
Atemi!

OwlMatt
09-17-2013, 06:01 PM
As others in this thread have already said, there are much better things than aikido waza for dealing with "bad guys". I train aikido waza for one reason and one reason only: because I like aikido.

Bill Danosky
09-23-2013, 10:48 AM
Offtopic.
Why aikido Yoshinkan practitioners often are aggressive in discussion? I mentioned it in Post-Soviet Union field also.

No, I think there's something to that. Yoshinkan practitioners often choose that style because we want to re-legitimize Aikido among martial arts, as opposed to dance styles. My waza works. I have used it on bad guys successfully. YMMV.

Bill Danosky
09-23-2013, 10:51 AM
When the moment comes you do what you do.

I will agree if we say, "When the moment comes, we do what we have done again and again and again."

It's ENTIRE the point of practice, IMO.

Steven
09-23-2013, 11:21 AM
glock or smith-wesson waza and following zombie land rule #2 - double tap. but don't forget rule #1: cardio. and rule #14: always carry a change of underwear in case of code brown situation. :D

+1

Brett Charvat
09-23-2013, 01:50 PM
Yoshinkan practitioners often choose that style because we want to re-legitimize Aikido among martial arts, as opposed to dance styles.

-- Well, that's mighty big of you; thanks! Remind me, which ones are the "dance styles" again?

bkedelen
09-24-2013, 10:05 AM
What say you, Bill? I am curious to hear your wisdom on this matter.

ChrisMikk
09-25-2013, 07:07 AM
Ki(mchi) blasts.

onara kusai. brutal!

ChrisMikk
09-25-2013, 07:09 AM
"No design, no conception" as Musashi wrote down.

Musashi also towered over his opponents physically and spent all his time training. Good luck.

ChrisMikk
09-25-2013, 07:12 AM
-- Well, that's mighty big of you; thanks! Remind me, which ones are the "dance styles" again?

Grammatically speaking, I think he means Yoshinkan practitioners want to re-legitimize aikido among martial artists rather than among dancers.

Mary Eastland
09-25-2013, 08:05 AM
Grammatically speaking, I think he means Yoshinkan practitioners want to re-legitimize aikido among martial artists rather than among dancers.

How will that be accomplished?

Bill Danosky
09-25-2013, 08:06 AM
A dance move is any technique that requires an uke to work. Every Aikido practitioner needs to know the difference, for their own safety.

Bill Danosky
09-25-2013, 09:51 AM
Here's George Ledyard on this issue (follows). It's from an old thread here, but I can't get the normal QUOTE function to work here:

"...It's not at all difficult to know when things are martially ineffective. Aikido practice is highly stylized. So the first sign of martial ineffectiveness is when the folks in the dojo can't even make their waza work under the controlled circumstances of practice.

Irimi is at the heart of all martial application. If you go to a dojo and no one can enter without you hitting them, the practice is ineffective. That's my first test... I frequently arrive at dojos to teach and find that not a single student can pull off an irimi when I attack. That's because I REALLY attack. at the majority of the dojos I see around, the students are not really trying to strike their partners. If everyone trains that way day after day, they think they know how to do things they really cannot do. As Frank Doran Sensei says, the "entry" is everything, everything else is just icing on the cake.

I think that the "entry" is the most neglected aspect of Aikido training. I sell a lot of Aikido DVD's. I have a set I call the Principles of Aiki set. Vol. 2 is just on "Entries". I sell fewer of those than the others. I am convinced that this is because people see the title and say to themselves "I know how to do that..."

Anyway, it's a shock when a bunch of third or fourth dans, or even worse, someone running a dojo, finds that they can't do an entry. They can know 500 techniques and without effective irimi, it's just 500 techniques they cannot do.

The second thing one can spot at a dojo at which the practice is clearly martially ineffective is closely related to the above. Can the students at the dojo strike? With speed, with power? If not, then the practice is being done at unrealistically slow speed. People will not be able to adjust when it gets fast and hard.

What does the "intention" feel like during practice. Once again, you can look at the folks in many dojos and see that they have no projection, no forward intention. You can stand in front of them and feel nothing. They have no idea how to organize a strong forward flow of attention. If you attack them fast, or God forbid, with unexpected timing, they are never ready. You can stand in front of someone like this and know you will hit them before you even start.

One of my students gave me a book on the theory of limits as applied to business. While being over my head math-wise after about three chapters, I got the gist of it. It changed my thinking about how we teach our art. The theory of limits says that in any complex system, like a factory (and Aikido is also a complex system of body / mind skills), one needs to analyze the various elements that go into producing the output of the factory and decide which one is the "limiting factor". You can throw all sorts of money and resources into that factory and have no increase in the production whatever if you don't devote them to improving the "limiting factor".

So, in my opinion, most Aikido practice is done without any regard to this idea. People are studying a wide range of techniques, empty hand and weapons, putting all sorts of time and money into their training with almost no increase in actual skill from year to year because they have not addressed the limiting factor in their Aikido.

For the majority of the folks I see training, the limiting factor is the lack of ability or willingness to train with attacks which have speed and power. Strikes have no body integration and hence no actual power. Grabs tend to be "strong" in a way that is totally ineffective. A grab should be designed to effect the partner's balance and his ability to respond. Turning your partner's hand purple by grabbing really hard has no martial effectiveness whatever and is probably making you tight in a way that limits your ability to move freely.

So collectively, I would put all of this under the label of "attacks". Problems with the "attack" is the limiting factor for most Aikido folks. There is simply no possible way for someone to get to any level beyond the rudimentary without addressing this issue. Period. 50% of ones training is in the role of "uke". All sorts of attention is put on the ability to take the fall, very little is put on the actual attack.

Now, that said, fixing this issue is still no guarantee of "martial effectiveness" outside the dojo. But the idea that only combat will tell you anything simply isn't the case. Physical conflict runs through a whole range from a drunk guy shoving you at a bar to two or three fellows with guns confronting you on the street. There innumerable stories of folks with only moderate skills, developed in their dojo environments, using their Aikido "effectively" for self defense on the street. The reason for this is that most attackers out in the real world are not formally trained in anything. Many are simply incompetent. Dangerous perhaps, but not very sophisticated.

Combat is all out, life or death. Most folks will never have to use their Aikido in combat. That doesn't mean that one can't train for martial effectiveness. Do you want to know whether you are "martially effective"? Go up to your local mixed martial arts gym and see about applying what you've worked on in the dojo. Personally, I don't actually care about this issue, but young men often wonder if their stuff "works" and this is a good way to find out. The uchi deshi used to wonder the same thing... they'd go out to the local bars and get in fights, often with the soldiers from the occupation. That's a good way to find out of you can do your Aikido against folks who have no formal training. Of course you might get injured, killed or just plain arrested doing this, but it will tell you something.

Anyway, my feeling is that people need to fix how they train in the dojo and get it to the point at which it actually works within the stylized framework of Aikido itself before they need to start worrying about "combat application" or "martial effectiveness". These discussions are off mark most of the time, I think. Find the "limiting factor" in your training and fix it. Then find the new "limiting factor" and fix that. Progress will result and eventually you will be good at what you do. Then, if you want to experiment with non-traditional applications, go ahead. Folks who worry about this too early in their training typically do not get very good."

Mary Eastland
09-25-2013, 04:05 PM
I just checked out a couple of Yoshinkan videos. To me it doesn't seem any more or less effective than any other style of Aikido. It look a little tense and not as blendy as some styles of Aikido. I don't see how it is any more martially effective.

Bill Danosky
09-25-2013, 04:47 PM
Mary, you have been around long enough to know checking out a couple of videos doesn't give you any answers. Yoshinkan dojos vary somewhat, and I wouldn't speak for anyone but myself, or claim that we are the final word in self defense- We had a senior instructor from Birankai just practice with us for a year and we learned a ton from him. But in my dojo, we are free to say, "This isn't working!" So we are not reinforcing bad habits. I am certain that makes a big difference.

Regardless, the most important thing I am trying to underscore here is that IF you have ANY impracticality in your technique, it's the dojo's solemn obligation to make sure you know. That's how we find our "limiting factor" (s) and improve. And when I say "we" I mean our practice group.

I would prefer no one finds any insult in that, but if they do I think it's worth it to deliver that message. We ALL have weaknesses. Myself included, but I am working hard to define and eliminate them. Please make sure your's don't take you by surprise. You never know when trouble will find you.

Mary Eastland
09-25-2013, 05:30 PM
By being aware and present you can be less likely to be taken by surprise. Living a conscious way keeps us safer while we stay positive.

OwlMatt
09-25-2013, 08:09 PM
There is only one way to know if your aikido works in the case of a real attack, and that is to hang around in a shady part of town until someone attacks you. I'm going to go ahead and guess that no one in this thread has done that, and that therefore that a style vs. style effectiveness argument has nowhere to go but down.

Bill Danosky
09-25-2013, 10:03 PM
Stumbling onto a situation where someone is getting beaten up and intervening might be a more plausible way of knowing. You tend not to realize what really happened until it's over and you start recounting it.

If you trained right and your body did what it was supposed to, things turned out well. "If your Aikido works", things may have even turned out acceptably well for the bad guy, since he got submitted instead of beaten to a pulp.

The OP was not style vs. style. It was about the relevance of individual techniques. When I post a question about martial application on a martial art forum, I assume it's going to go somewhere, or the website wouldn't exist. If I'm wrong, what are we doing here?

OwlMatt
09-25-2013, 11:43 PM
Stumbling onto a situation where someone is getting beaten up and intervening might be a more plausible way of knowing. You tend not to realize what really happened until it's over and you start recounting it.

If you trained right and your body did what it was supposed to, things turned out well. "If your Aikido works", things may have even turned out acceptably well for the bad guy, since he got submitted instead of beaten to a pulp.

The OP was not style vs. style. It was about the relevance of individual techniques. When I post a question about martial application on a martial art forum, I assume it's going to go somewhere, or the website wouldn't exist. If I'm wrong, what are we doing here?
You're right: the OP wasn't about style vs. style. But this conversation shows signs of going in that direction, and I think no good can come of it.

In general, I dislike discussion about using aikido waza against "bad guys", because those of us who have never attempted such a thing (that is, most of us) don't really know what we're talking about.

Brett Charvat
09-26-2013, 12:39 AM
The OP was not style vs. style.

-- Really? Then one wonders why you, the OP, first referred to certain aikido styles as "dance styles," while the more MARTIAL styles (presumably, your own Yoshinkan) are in contrast "re-legitimizing aikido as a martial art" (again, your words). I'll ask again, since you refused to answer previously; exactly which styles of aikido are the "dance styles" and which ones will focus on MARTIALNESS instead? I just want to know, so I don't piss my money away on silly dancing. Thanks in advance!!

Demetrio Cereijo
09-26-2013, 10:28 AM
What about waza to use against good guys?

phitruong
09-26-2013, 11:56 AM
What about waza to use against good guys?

beeriu waza following with chicken wing waza along with sushi waza.

Bill Danosky
09-26-2013, 02:34 PM
-- Really? Then one wonders why you, the OP, first referred to certain aikido styles as "dance styles," while the more MARTIAL styles (presumably, your own Yoshinkan) are in contrast "re-legitimizing aikido as a martial art" (again, your words). I'll ask again, since you refused to answer previously; exactly which styles of aikido are the "dance styles" and which ones will focus on MARTIALNESS instead? I just want to know, so I don't piss my money away on silly dancing. Thanks in advance!!

This is the original post of this thread:
Solid, martial techniques for me- Hiji Shime, Ude Garami, lots of Ikka jo (Ikkyo) and of course Irimi Nage. Working on my Kote Gaeshi for vs. weapon. I didn't used to think Shiho Nage, but lately...

See, irimi doesn't demand a committed attack to work, but if it's there, it's almost effortless.

bkedelen
09-26-2013, 02:57 PM
So ... you refuse to answer?

Bill Danosky
09-26-2013, 03:25 PM
So ... you refuse to answer?

If I want to insult someone I have better ways.

mathewjgano
09-26-2013, 04:33 PM
...the most important thing I am trying to underscore here is that IF you have ANY impracticality in your technique, it's the dojo's solemn obligation to make sure you know. That's how we find our "limiting factor" (s) and improve. And when I say "we" I mean our practice group.

I would prefer no one finds any insult in that, but if they do I think it's worth it to deliver that message. We ALL have weaknesses. Myself included, but I am working hard to define and eliminate them. Please make sure your's don't take you by surprise. You never know when trouble will find you.

I would agree it's important to have and convey realistic expectations as a teacher...crucial to the task, even. A problem is that so many people have different ideas on what constitutes "sufficient." By my low-level reckoning, my movement is sufficient enough to generally handle your average person, but against a well-fought individual I'm hopeful to get lucky enough to create space for me to run before I take a hard hit or are otherwise solidly locked into grappling range. What that set of words means is still going to vary from person to person based on their perception of what seems "average." When we add comparisons of study it gets even stickier.
As for waza I think of as likely to present itself, I like atemi, sankyo, kotegaeshi, and juji nage, but when I'm training with the mindset of being "strong against" an attacker I'm usually just cutting (kiri) and thrusting (tsuki) and thinking of "filling" my structure (how to make "everything irimi" when I move)...and slipping/entering (footwork) to the rear. If I can get there, I usually have more time/options.

Bill Danosky
09-26-2013, 07:24 PM
As for waza I think of as likely to present itself, I like atemi, sankyo, kotegaeshi, and juji nage, but when I'm training with the mindset of being "strong against" an attacker I'm usually just cutting (kiri) and thrusting (tsuki) and thinking of "filling" my structure (how to make "everything irimi" when I move)...and slipping/entering (footwork) to the rear. If I can get there, I usually have more time/options.

I like this. It's not how we practice, but I like the conceptual doctrine. There's something to be said for mental constructs. Do you feel it improves your effectiveness?

Tore Eriksson
09-26-2013, 10:02 PM
After reading the book that was the subject of this thread:
Master Minoru Mochizuki's Book? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22949),
I would say that hachi-mawashi (鉢回し) seems like a good contender for a martially efficient technique!

Bill Danosky
09-26-2013, 10:20 PM
I would say that hachi-mawashi (鉢回し) seems like a good contender for a martially efficient technique!

Hey, thanks! Now we know what "coconut grab" is really called!

And, btw.. Awww Yeaaaah.

mathewjgano
09-26-2013, 10:38 PM
I like this. It's not how we practice, but I like the conceptual doctrine. There's something to be said for mental constructs. Do you feel it improves your effectiveness?

I think so...a little at least. It's part of my meager training/approach, which includes a more technical view too. Ironically, it helps keep me out of my mind and more into feeling what my body is doing and responding to that. Otherwise I tend to create a mental timeline of expectations that usually leaves me a step behind. At least if I focus on "cutting and expanding" I find I tend to connect a little better and maintain positive pressure more often than when I think "do ikkyo."

Thinking about this a bit more, I also really like the Shodokan basic 17 randori waza for their general effectiveness; the atemi waza in particular. Things like gedan ate and ushiro ate (which is what I was specifically thinking of when I mentioned footwork and getting behind aite) seem to lend themselves well to setting up a lot of possibilities.

James Sawers
09-27-2013, 02:38 PM
My waza, if it can be called that, is that I try to think of not thinking, which for me is hard. But when my "witness" identifies a thought (pattern) that caused a blockage, which caused, in turn, a problem/weakness in my technique, I try to correct that. Takes constant monitoring.

Bill Danosky
09-27-2013, 04:18 PM
My waza, if it can be called that, is that I try to think of not thinking, which for me is hard. But when my "witness" identifies a thought (pattern) that caused a blockage, which caused, in turn, a problem/weakness in my technique, I try to correct that. Takes constant monitoring.

In Japan, they have a superstition that if you think of a monkey when you take medicine, the medicine will not work. Of course, that makes it impossible not to think of a monkey as soon as you come down with something. You definitely can't use thoughts to get rid of thinking.

Focus intensely on now and don't abandon the present, which is what human nature demands. Your ego wants to be anywhere beside in the middle of a conflict. Stay in the moment and notice (witness). Your body is going to do whatever you've been practicing (your waza) as long as you get out of the way.

Mark Uttech
10-04-2013, 03:57 PM
Onegaishimasu, I'm just practicing getting off the line, if that means anything...

bkedelen
10-04-2013, 04:49 PM
In Japan, they have a superstition that if you think of a monkey when you take medicine, the medicine will not work. Of course, that makes it impossible not to think of a monkey as soon as you come down with something. You definitely can't use thoughts to get rid of thinking.

This demonstrates that you already understand the rationale behind the meditation I was speaking about at the beginning of this thread. I was trying to point out that in my experience "doing stuff" is another thing you cannot use to get rid of thinking (which you cannot do anyway, but whatever).

I wish to suggest again, as humbly as possible, that trying to be present, any kind of self talk, and concentrating on your breath all consist of using thoughts and doing stuff. You MAY, like me, find those methods inadequate to the task of dropping you into the present and making your thoughts pass by like fluffy clouds.

I was suggesting the old and musty strategy of "doing nothing" instead. It is attractive and unique in that it is wholly the opposite of "doing something", and you might find that sitting down and doing nothing is kickass.

Now I know what you are thinking: You once overheard an abbot saying something contradictory to this. Doing nothing sounds like it won't produce the results you demand. Doing nothing won't let you do the things you were already going to do and also let you claim that you meditated today. That Ben guy is aggressive and demonstrates a lack of psychological development consistent with people who meditate wrong.

All that stuff is doubtless true, so try it at your own risk. Since taking on the nonpractice I find that I go nowhere, get nothing done, and can expect no results. Now that is my cup of tea, and I wanted to share it with anyone who is interested.

Bill Danosky
10-04-2013, 05:07 PM
In meditation, there is practice, and nonpractice, right? Mahayana Buddhism is considered to have some authority, and it teaches both a contemplative style, where one really wrestles with some mental issue or condition. And a type of "calm abiding" meditation, where one transcends their thoughts and realizes "they" (the thoughts) are not "you".

I wouldn't argue against any type of meditation. Unless you are tuning into "the voices", they are all healthy. Hopefully I haven't, at least. Remind me what we were arguing about then, and I'll see if it still makes sense. Something about hurting people, maybe?

Anjisan
10-08-2013, 08:53 AM
There is only one way to know if your aikido works in the case of a real attack, and that is to hang around in a shady part of town until someone attacks you. I'm going to go ahead and guess that no one in this thread has done that, and that therefore that a style vs. style effectiveness argument has nowhere to go but down.

Unfortunately, in my work I deal with everyday people who have been involved in attacks, domestics disputes, and many other unpleasant situations. One does not have to hang out with shady characters or the bad area of town to experience violence that's in your face. Certainly, that can increase your chances, but it is not necessary. Therefore, IMO one cannot afford to not at least strive to make one's training as realistic and practical as possible. That is not to say that one's training has to be totally focused on that or that is all you should think about, but it should be a significant aspect.

On this forum and at seminars, I have often hear from a segment of the Aikido community that does not believe that self-defense is necessary. Besides, if one does include it, that it can't really be used against someone whose is trained or street experienced (some thugs really are) or it seems implied that if one does have that as a point of emphasis that you somehow forsake it as a means of self-improvement to become a better human being, marriage counseling, working with troubled youth and just plain having fun! It would seem that there is this fork in the training road that its either martial and that's all one can focus on or its the softer side of self-improvement and metaphorical uses. I still have yet to hear a convincing argument on why one can't and shouldn't have both sides as parts of one's training path. To be sure, " realistic" is subjective and is an approximation on a continuum.

However, unless one completely out of touch, its not that difficult to see how physical conflict happens in the 21st century (potentially to anyone anywhere) and how traditional approaches and techniques may have to be tweaked or modified to make them work. Moreover, it sometimes just comes down to martial intent on the Uke's and Nage's part and that is very difficult if not impossible, to teach.

Bill Danosky
10-08-2013, 08:11 PM
Unfortunately, in my work I deal with everyday people who have been involved in attacks, domestics disputes, and many other unpleasant situations. One does not have to hang out with shady characters or the bad area of town to experience violence that's in your face. Certainly, that can increase your chances, but it is not necessary. Therefore, IMO one cannot afford to not at least strive to make one's training as realistic and practical as possible. That is not to say that one's training has to be totally focused on that or that is all you should think about, but it should be a significant aspect.

On this forum and at seminars, I have often hear from a segment of the Aikido community that does not believe that self-defense is necessary. Besides, if one does include it, that it can't really be used against someone whose is trained or street experienced (some thugs really are) or it seems implied that if one does have that as a point of emphasis that you somehow forsake it as a means of self-improvement to become a better human being, marriage counseling, working with troubled youth and just plain having fun! It would seem that there is this fork in the training road that its either martial and that's all one can focus on or its the softer side of self-improvement and metaphorical uses. I still have yet to hear a convincing argument on why one can't and shouldn't have both sides as parts of one's training path. To be sure, " realistic" is subjective and is an approximation on a continuum.

However, unless one completely out of touch, its not that difficult to see how physical conflict happens in the 21st century (potentially to anyone anywhere) and how traditional approaches and techniques may have to be tweaked or modified to make them work. Moreover, it sometimes just comes down to martial intent on the Uke's and Nage's part and that is very difficult if not impossible, to teach.

Can I be first?

"That is not true. The Emperor's clothes are beautiful and regal."

Anjisan
10-08-2013, 08:52 PM
Can I be first?

"That is not true. The Emperor's clothes are beautiful and regal."

To teach martial intent? It is a challenge to be sure. It really seems to come from within like having heart. It seems that one can teach someone to "act" the part but to put substance behind it is not easy if that is not who one really is IMO.

Bill Danosky
10-08-2013, 10:12 PM
To teach martial intent? It is a challenge to be sure. It really seems to come from within like having heart. It seems that one can teach someone to "act" the part but to put substance behind it is not easy if that is not who one really is IMO.

Yeah, violence of action tends to determine outcome. It's the fire superiority of single combat.

Rupert Atkinson
10-08-2013, 10:54 PM
Onegaishimasu, I'm just practicing getting off the line, if that means anything...

If you meet them head on, you will find that they tend to move out of the way. :)

Anjisan
10-09-2013, 06:29 AM
Onegaishimasu, I'm just practicing getting off the line, if that means anything...

Mark I remember hearing that Saotome sensei also taught holding the center line, not necessarily conceding it, but not clashing either.

Bill Danosky
10-09-2013, 10:20 AM
Sometimes we "displace" uke from the space he's occupying. Like at the end of Irimi Nage Ichi (our linear type) when we make that last cross step behind uke, we wind up standing where he was and he is of course, laying a few feet away (if we performed our zanshin like we're supposed to). But if we don't get our shita hara under uke's it's effect is reduced.

kivawolfspeaker
10-09-2013, 12:12 PM
I think that everyone, unless they have a seriously misfiring survival instinct, has martial intent within them. What's tricky is activating that instinct during training, especially in a society where the moral standard is it's never ok to kill ones own kind under any circumstances for any reason at all.

Bill Danosky
10-09-2013, 01:53 PM
I think that everyone, unless they have a seriously misfiring survival instinct, has martial intent within them. What's tricky is activating that instinct during training, especially in a society where the moral standard is it's never ok to kill ones own kind under any circumstances for any reason at all.

What society is that?

I know Madison is cool, but...

Rupert Atkinson
10-09-2013, 03:53 PM
Sometimes we "displace" uke from the space he's occupying. Like at the end of Irimi Nage Ichi (our linear type) when we make that last cross step behind uke, we wind up standing where he was and he is of course, laying a few feet away (if we performed our zanshin like we're supposed to). But if we don't get our shita hara under uke's it's effect is reduced.

That's good - like it. If you want to chase aiki, you have to do this. Try to do it right from the beginning of the technique and to displace uke throughout, but without clashing too much. In this sense, tenkan does now serve us well, so I now believe. nor does avoidance.

phitruong
10-09-2013, 06:37 PM
Mark I remember hearing that Saotome sensei also taught holding the center line, not necessarily conceding it, but not clashing either.

log bridge excercise. you irimi and make uke tenkan.

kivawolfspeaker
10-09-2013, 08:56 PM
What society is that?

I know Madison is cool, but...

Some people live in Western "Lala Land" and think that peace qnd harmony means no one kills anyone period. Personally, I think peace and harmony simply means no unnecessary killing. With Aikido being about peace and harmony some people come in having certain misconceptions about what this means, thus getting "martial intent" out of them can be difficult.

Anjisan
10-09-2013, 09:17 PM
log bridge excercise. you irimi and make uke tenkan.

Marubashi!

valjean
10-11-2013, 04:10 PM
On this forum and at seminars, I have often hear from a segment of the Aikido community that does not believe that self-defense is necessary. Besides, if one does include it, that it can't really be used against someone whose is trained or street experienced (some thugs really are) or it seems implied that if one does have that as a point of emphasis that you somehow forsake it as a means of self-improvement to become a better human being, marriage counseling, working with troubled youth and just plain having fun! It would seem that there is this fork in the training road that its either martial and that's all one can focus on or its the softer side of self-improvement and metaphorical uses. I still have yet to hear a convincing argument on why one can't and shouldn't have both sides as parts of one's training path. To be sure, " realistic" is subjective and is an approximation on a continuum.

I have much respect for your point of view, and I too would like to believe that there is a "middle way." I also see wisdom in the observation that people who don't train against seriously committed attacks may be ill-prepared to defend them. Speaking on behalf of fellow (pre-dan) klutzes, however, I sometimes feel in aikido technique classes that I'm treading water simply in trying to follow all the mechanics of what the teacher is teaching. Making uke into a 200 pound gorilla who is genuinely trying to break nage's arm (or nage's neck) may be crucial for improving practical skill, given a nage who already has a fundamental grasp of the mechanics. In my case, though, I am not convinced it would help to me to achieve better clarity in comprehending technique.

Most of the practical defensive instruction I've experienced in aikido has focused more on movement and alignment and blending against the rampaging gorilla, rather than trying to execute specific techniques. Sensei is always careful to point out the atemi possibilities, as well as the aikido techniques, that open up once given correct positioning in concert with attacker. The former tend to offer options for a karate-style response, even assuming that one misses or screws up an aikido technique that could otherwise be a good fit.

Bill Danosky
10-12-2013, 10:03 AM
You may just be noticing the big differences between styles that come into light here on Aikiweb. Yoshinkan Aikido, as an example, is dramatically different in it's focus from many other styles. We are very technique oriented, and obsessive about form. Technique X = Step 1, step 2, step 3, and so on. Exactly like this, every single time. Perfect kamae. Posture = power. A certain pivot might be 95 degrees; not 100. You see where I'm going. Less of an emphasis on movement, more on optiming every step. Kancho was like that. His transitions were sometimes described as "explosively locking into position."

Our ukemi is different, too. When someone is learning a technique, Uke may be largely making the movements for Shite. Less so, as it's committed to memory and Shite is polishing his or her execution. By the time we're just drilling it, Uke is not giving anything away. It's fun. My 24-year-old, ni kyu son and I absolutely crush each other, and laugh about it like idiots.

I have never trained in an MMA gym where anybody was trying to break anyone's arm (or neck). It definitely shouldn't be happening in an Aikido dojo. I happen to like the 200 pound gorillas, but they should know the difference between training, jiyu waza and randori. Or learn it the hard way.

Anjisan
10-15-2013, 12:10 PM
I have much respect for your point of view, and I too would like to believe that there is a "middle way." I also see wisdom in the observation that people who don't train against seriously committed attacks may be ill-prepared to defend them. Speaking on behalf of fellow (pre-dan) klutzes, however, I sometimes feel in aikido technique classes that I'm treading water simply in trying to follow all the mechanics of what the teacher is teaching. Making uke into a 200 pound gorilla who is genuinely trying to break nage's arm (or nage's neck) may be crucial for improving practical skill, given a nage who already has a fundamental grasp of the mechanics. In my case, though, I am not convinced it would help to me to achieve better clarity in comprehending technique.

Most of the practical defensive instruction I've experienced in aikido has focused more on movement and alignment and blending against the rampaging gorilla, rather than trying to execute specific techniques. Sensei is always careful to point out the atemi possibilities, as well as the aikido techniques, that open up once given correct positioning in concert with attacker. The former tend to offer options for a karate-style response, even assuming that one misses or screws up an aikido technique that could otherwise be a good fit.

Modifying your Aikido techniques, if self-defense is one of your goals of training (which I would certainly hope that it would be:) as well as cross-training to bring in other compatible techniques (big fan of Escrima/Kali myself) will come if you are conscious about it, but the mindset at least can be part of your training now.

A side point is that ultimately as far a Nage goes-the ultimate goal IMO is to ultimately transcend "techniques" per se and thus, to be in the moment. You will know when these moments occur because you wont recognize what you just did, probably others wont either and if you were asked to do it again you wouldn't quite know how because that response was as unique as the attack. Sure at time a recognizable techniques will show itself without you consciously looking to apply it but the higher level is you don't know what you just did. I guess that would be the Path Beyond Thought. Anyway, I remember Saotome sensei demonstrating a technique at a seminar in Chicago and the Uke would attack say 4 times and there would often give at three distinct responses because he was in the moment and not forcing a technique that wasn't there. He eventually got the attacks he needed of course but the point was profound to me as a young Aikidoka.

This martial mindset is not just applicable to Nage but to Uke as well. It is my belief that a big factor in determining how far we can go in our Aikido abilities is determined by those that take Ukemi for us. In other words, Ukes who give committed attacks, when permissible non-traditional attacks, have an "attacker" mindset you know? They get into their character and play it well! Besides, I've been told that one's Ukemi is the first thing to go so do it with gusto while your body allows!;)