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ChrisHein
08-31-2013, 01:14 PM
Here are some spear suburi and forms I've been working on over the last several years. They represent material that I feel wasn't clearly illustrated in the Aikido jo work I learned. Through my experience with the Dog brothers and other weapon sparring adventures, I realized that much of what we can do with the jo is underemphasized and easy to overlook. Through my studies of other traditional Japanese weapon systems and a deeper look into Aikido jo work, I felt something was missing from my schools jo work. Instead of reworking the existing material that I had learned (and value) I added a set of spear forms to my schools curriculum. I believe these forms, suburi and other practices can help to clarify more of what is happening in Aikido "jo" work.

Enjoy-
Explanation: http://www.aikidostudent.com/ASCv2/?p=122

Suburi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_9Zp9UsrA0

Kumiso: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1TGrVMUKMU

Michael Hackett
08-31-2013, 03:58 PM
Chris,

I don't know the yari at all, but your mawashi burai demonstration shows clearly that you know what you are doing with a jo. Well done.

Dazaifoo
08-31-2013, 07:34 PM
Looks good!
What length of yari do you use for practice?

ChrisHein
09-01-2013, 03:03 PM
Thanks Michael.
Scott, It's around 54".

Leonaiki
09-20-2013, 01:33 PM
Good work indeed.

It is slowly coming to public knowledge that the jo is not a wooden stick but a yari - Ueshiba sensei's version at least.

How do you link that practice of spear and taijutsu ?

best
L

ChrisHein
09-23-2013, 12:28 PM
How do you link that practice of spear and taijutsu ?

best
L

It's becoming increasingly difficult for me to answer this question. I really don't see a difference between weapon work and Taijutsu. I think, many people say "taijutsu" and mean a kind of karate (empty hand techniques). I don't really understand taijutsu this way. I understand taijutsu to mean: body skills. The body may or may not have a weapon attached to it.

Specific weapon skills- Kenjutsu, Jojutsu, Sojutsu etc teach how you can best use your body to interact with that specific weapon. While taijutsu teaches how you use your body overall. Any weapon system that is part of a larger taijutsu system, must have the same body use skills- same taijutsu, if that system has any continuity.

So, I would say the two (my taijutsu, and sojutsu) are linked in every way. The sojutsu is an extension of my taijutsu.

sakumeikan
09-23-2013, 02:58 PM
Here are some spear suburi and forms I've been working on over the last several years. They represent material that I feel wasn't clearly illustrated in the Aikido jo work I learned. Through my experience with the Dog brothers and other weapon sparring adventures, I realized that much of what we can do with the jo is underemphasized and easy to overlook. Through my studies of other traditional Japanese weapon systems and a deeper look into Aikido jo work, I felt something was missing from my schools jo work. Instead of reworking the existing material that I had learned (and value) I added a set of spear forms to my schools curriculum. I believe these forms, suburi and other practices can help to clarify more of what is happening in Aikido "jo" work.

Enjoy-
Explanation: http://www.aikidostudent.com/ASCv2/?p=122

Suburi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_9Zp9UsrA0

Kumiso: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1TGrVMUKMU

Dear Hein Sensei,
Thank you for posting the vids.I found them interesting.Nevertheless the forms shown bear little resemblance to the forms Jo work that I study.Unfortunately despite my having a wealth of ken/jo video material I do not know how to post such material on the Net.For example the forms called Sansho one , Two and Three are available on Youtube I believe.Worth a look I would suggest, Cheers, Joe

ChrisHein
09-23-2013, 03:35 PM
Dear Hein Sensei,
Thank you for posting the vids.I found them interesting.Nevertheless the forms shown bear little resemblance to the forms Jo work that I study.Unfortunately despite my having a wealth of ken/jo video material I do not know how to post such material on the Net.For example the forms called Sansho one , Two and Three are available on Youtube I believe.Worth a look I would suggest, Cheers, Joe

I watched the videos on youtube- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UXyRRiDANI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqbZAGu7q0U

I liked them. To me the material presented in those videos is very similar to the material shown in the Kumiso. What do you mean by "bears little resemblance"? They are not the same forms, but most (if not all) of the same body ideas, movements, and principles are the same. Do you not find this to be true?

To me, the Sansho videos show the same basic ideas of Aikido "stick" work as most of the other Aikido styles I've looked at. Do you not find this to be true?

Riai Maori
02-08-2014, 02:17 AM
Here are some spear suburi and forms I've been working on over the last several years. They represent material that I feel wasn't clearly illustrated in the Aikido jo work I learned. Through my experience with the Dog brothers and other weapon sparring adventures, I realized that much of what we can do with the jo is underemphasized and easy to overlook. Through my studies of other traditional Japanese weapon systems and a deeper look into Aikido jo work, I felt something was missing from my schools jo work. Instead of reworking the existing material that I had learned (and value) I added a set of spear forms to my schools curriculum. I believe these forms, suburi and other practices can help to clarify more of what is happening in Aikido "jo" work.

Nice display. Have a look here www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CNq4_RrUrg

This is a traditional spear art my ancestors (Maori) used to fight the enemy and is still taught today. The name of the weapon is called a Tiaha and they vary in length. One end is shaped as a club while the other end has a point for spearing. The feathers at the pointed end are for visual distraction while you get whacked with the club end.:)

ChrisHein
02-09-2014, 01:49 AM
That was a really great video! Thanks!

ravenest
03-15-2014, 03:21 AM
Here are some spear suburi and forms I've been working on over the last several years. They represent material that I feel wasn't clearly illustrated in the Aikido jo work I learned. Through my experience with the Dog brothers and other weapon sparring adventures, I realized that much of what we can do with the jo is underemphasized and easy to overlook. Through my studies of other traditional Japanese weapon systems and a deeper look into Aikido jo work, I felt something was missing from my schools jo work. Instead of reworking the existing material that I had learned (and value) I added a set of spear forms to my schools curriculum. I believe these forms, suburi and other practices can help to clarify more of what is happening in Aikido "jo" work.

Enjoy-
Explanation: http://www.aikidostudent.com/ASCv2/?p=122

Suburi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_9Zp9UsrA0

Kumiso: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1TGrVMUKMU

Excellent ! Thankyou ! All these years I wanted to learn Yari and didnt think I would be able to find a teacher where I live .... yet I have done a fair bit of Jo ... in Aikido and an Okinawan form. It sure makes sense ( I am one to ask a lot of 'annoying questions' .... like; why those seemingly unnecessary 'twirls' and end changes with the Jo ) .

next training session with my Okinawan style teacher ( who doesnt mind a bit of 'innovation') I will suggest the idea ( as his Jo forms actually came from an Aikido guy years back ;) ,....

ravenest
03-15-2014, 03:31 AM
Nice display. Have a look here www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CNq4_RrUrg

This is a traditional spear art my ancestors (Maori) used to fight the enemy and is still taught today. The name of the weapon is called a Tiaha and they vary in length. One end is shaped as a club while the other end has a point for spearing. The feathers at the pointed end are for visual distraction while you get whacked with the club end.:)

Thank you too . I have seen a bit before ( travelled NZ yeeeeaaaars ago ).

One time this Maori guy saw us training kobudo in the park here (with Eku ) he really took a second take at it .... also the Samoan guy that lives near by (he has the full leg tattoos happening ) was checking us out.

Indigenous Martial Arts - love it ! There are some here but most are secret and initiated mens knowledge ... however , relatively recently Careeda has become public. Good stuff, good for culture and the young fellas

.http://www.coreedaoz.com/main/page_faq.html

Keep up the good work, great stuff !

ravenest
03-15-2014, 03:45 AM
Also this :

. One end is shaped as a club while the other end has a point for spearing.

I also wanted to learn an Okinawan form with a similar dual natured ended weapon, but its not in my teachers repertoire :(

A small turtle shell shield and a shaft with spear point one end and a club (sometimes a lump of coral) on the other).

http://www.allstars.net.au/weapons.html#rochen

http://www.karatekobudo.com/images/weapons/tamayose-tinbe.jpg

NagaBaba
03-16-2014, 12:45 PM
If I was you, I would rather stick very close with jodo, there are some strong teachers around. Jodo teach well martial principles and correct use of the body when working with weapons.

ravenest
03-19-2014, 12:50 AM
If I was you, I would rather stick very close with jodo, there are some strong teachers around. Jodo teach well martial principles and correct use of the body when working with weapons.

Yes I see the value of that ( could be seen as the 'mother' ) especially for single, longer shaft weapons ... I do kobudo so train in multiple weapons.

- not many teachers where I live ... out in the country.

Rupert Atkinson
03-23-2014, 03:37 PM
Nice vids. Well done :-)

Michael Douglas
04-12-2014, 01:38 PM
I didn't watch the linked videos, but I did read the comments : a lot of them recommending Jo work.
In my opinion ... for effective (and I mean real effective) use of a SPEAR ... if you ever (EVER!) turn it around and use the wrong end : you're a complete idiot, or just messing about.
Spear is completely and utterly different to a stick. Deal with it.

hughrbeyer
04-13-2014, 11:27 PM
So bashing someone with the butt of a jo works, but not with the butt of a spear? Good to know.

And hitting them with the butt of your sword would be, of course, unthinkable.

Riai Maori
04-14-2014, 01:59 PM
I didn't watch the linked videos, but I did read the comments : a lot of them recommending Jo work.
In my opinion ... for effective (and I mean real effective) use of a SPEAR ... if you ever (EVER!) turn it around and use the wrong end : you're a complete idiot, or just messing about.
Spear is completely and utterly different to a stick. Deal with it.

How can you make an inaccurate comment without watching the Video's. there are many spears that have a club end. OPEN YOUR EYES and DEAL with THAT!!!!!:grr:

lbb
04-14-2014, 02:30 PM
Aren't you people overreacting just a wee trifle? Of course you can use the butt end of a spear as a staff, but unless you're being completely disingenuous and looking to pick a fight, you'll have to admit that a spear also has a "business end". And, if you are being completely disingenuous and looking to pick a fight, maybe you should go back to bed, have a nice nap, and get up on the right side this time.

Keith Larman
04-14-2014, 03:47 PM
I didn't watch the linked videos, but I did read the comments : a lot of them recommending Jo work.
In my opinion ... for effective (and I mean real effective) use of a SPEAR ... if you ever (EVER!) turn it around and use the wrong end : you're a complete idiot, or just messing about.
Spear is completely and utterly different to a stick. Deal with it.

Wow. I mean, really, wow. You're basing that on what? Do you know what the thing is on the end of a yari haft? It's called an ishizuki. I've seen a huge number of antique ishizuki and they were *clearly* not just decoration. One of these days you might want to get out and look at a few antique ishizuki and I think you might want to revise your opinion. Often made of iron and often with a point as well to reduce the impact area to a very small point, they were well regarded as impact weapons in their own right. Some are downright vicious looking and one could easily fracture a skull.

Keith Larman
04-14-2014, 03:56 PM
Maybe this will help...

Keith Larman
04-14-2014, 04:15 PM
And when there is more than one attacker... Like someone behind you...

The point for me is that it isn't an issue of obviously the yari itself (or naginata for that matter) being the bladed end, but in most styles I've seen they rather actively train on using both ends of the haft. Which is why there's an ishizuki in the first place and such a huge variety of styles depending on ryu/regional style/etc. Color me puzzled...

And yes, some styles of swordsmanship also have strikes with the kashira. And there are a few rather rare types of kashira with "pointy bits" ostensibly for that very purpose. But it's no where near as common as in yari work in particular.

And for that matter you should see the incredible variety of styles of yari which also impact how they're used. You're not going to use a tanpo yari the same as a jumanji yari or a kagigata. And if you want to talk absolutely vicious look up futamata yari.

And on the point of regional differences, the kagi yari also has an iron "sword catcher" about a foot down the haft from the yari blade itself. The applications of the weapon are going to be clearly different.

phitruong
04-14-2014, 09:03 PM
Maybe this will help...

you know, if you give the swiss army a chance, they might be able to pack all of that into one. :)

Riai Maori
04-14-2014, 09:37 PM
you know, if you give the swiss army a chance, they might be able to pack all of that into one. :)

Too much! Can't stop laughing:D

Riai Maori
04-14-2014, 09:39 PM
Maybe this will help...

Amen.:)

Michael Douglas
04-15-2014, 03:01 PM
Maybe this will help...
Let's go!
You get to use both ends : including the one to remove boy scouts from horses' hooves, and I only get to use the pointy end!
The thing I said about "messing about", goes double. If the butt-end was truly important there wouldn't be a plethora of funky styles.

Keith Larman
04-15-2014, 09:41 PM
Let's go!
You get to use both ends : including the one to remove boy scouts from horses' hooves, and I only get to use the pointy end!
The thing I said about "messing about", goes double. If the butt-end was truly important there wouldn't be a plethora of funky styles.

What is the expression? Better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. No thanks, you apparently already know all you will ever know about yari and how they were actually used.

Fred Little
04-16-2014, 11:05 AM
Let's go!
You get to use both ends : including the one to remove boy scouts from horses' hooves, and I only get to use the pointy end!
The thing I said about "messing about", goes double. If the butt-end was truly important there wouldn't be a plethora of funky styles.

Mr. Douglas,

My experience includes some background in aikiken and aikijo from several different lineages -- mind you, I'm not claiming exhaustive mastery of those usages, just enough experience to recognize a few commonalities -- as well as sword and polearms in two distinct koryu. Additionally, I've been fortunate enough to observe a number of public and private presentations of other koryu in which I don't actively train. I have certainly experienced wide variations of training methods and goals within aiki-buki practice, and even broader variations across multiple koryu. In the former case, these differences are associated with individual instructors working off a somewhat common base of material. In the latter case, the differences are associated with a much broader range of factors -- historical era in which the school arose, social class of practitioners then and now, geographic location of practitioners, and primary focus of the school, to name but a few.

Some older schools are dedicated exclusively to the practice of one weapon, others address usage of multiple weapons while retaining a primary orientation toward one of those weapons. Some koryu schools (or lineages within larger groupings) retain a combative sensibility, others are more in the nature of cultural preservation societies. All of this makes generalization rather difficult.

But that said, I can assure you from personal experience that a polearm in the right hands is not a mullet -- business in front and party in the rear -- and that entering into an engagement with the assumption that it is such leaves one quite literally open to some exceedingly ugly possibilities.

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that, as many direct students of the Founder have repeatedly told -- and continue to tell -- their students, aikijo and aikiken are not intended as strictly combative systems, but rather, are intended to provide a medium for teaching a range of principles, not least of them reinforcing the basic patterns of body movement taught in this or that group or aikidoka.

As the late Sugano Sensei once said in response to a query about why he didn't emphasize sword (or more broadly, "weapons") as a part of his instruction, "if you want mochi, go to the mochi maker."

This seems to me a much sounder proposition than making assumptions and pronouncements regarding the nature of polearm combatives on the basis of experience with a system of movement with sticks which has been designed to emphasize -- according to its disseminators -- something other than a strictly combative purpose.

Of course, we all have a natural tendency to relate anything new that we encounter to something we already know, in which regard your observations about the lack of efficacy of the butt end of the stick may be accurate -- based solely on your prior experience.

Forgive me if I've belabored the point, but it is also my experience that the tendency of many aikido practitioners toward unwarranted assumptions that one's experience in aikido provides a sound guide to judgment regarding the principles underlying older combative systems, or the expression of those principles in particular patterns of movement or other elements of technical application, has resulted in a noticeable reluctance on the part of a number of licensed koryu instructors to accept students with a background in aikido. This seems to me an unfortunate, but understandable, situation; whatever your own personal training goals, please give a moment's thought to the possibility that ill-considered statements such as yours might not only be merely wrong, but may themselves cause difficulties to other aikido practitioners with rather less unwarranted certainty about the scope of their own knowledge and rather more curiosity about approaches to budo and bujutsu that predate the development of aikido as a gendai budo.

Best regards,

FL

Keith Larman
04-16-2014, 01:27 PM
Mr. Douglas, ...

...please give a moment's thought to the possibility that ill-considered statements such as yours might not only be merely wrong, but may themselves cause difficulties to other aikido practitioners with rather less unwarranted certainty about the scope of their own knowledge and rather more curiosity about approaches to budo and bujutsu that predate the development of aikido as a gendai budo.

Best regards,

FL

This is something I've run in to first hand. I was at a private training session a while back by the invite of the head guy. One fella on the mat with me who didn't know me asked where I was from and what I studied. I said Aikido. He looked at me funny and another nearby student on the floor said "Don't worry, Keith's okay, he's not like most Aikido guys..." It is a sad commentary on how Aikido is viewed outside the Aikido community that I realized that was a compliment.

Michael Douglas
04-17-2014, 01:35 PM
Perhaps you should consider the possibility that, as many direct students of the Founder have repeatedly told -- and continue to tell -- their students, aikijo and aikiken are not intended as strictly combative systems, but rather, are intended to provide a medium for teaching a range of principles, not least of them reinforcing the basic patterns of body movement taught in this or that group or aikidoka.

As the late Sugano Sensei once said in response to a query about why he didn't emphasize sword (or more broadly, "weapons") as a part of his instruction, "if you want mochi, go to the mochi maker."

This seems to me a much sounder proposition than making assumptions and pronouncements regarding the nature of polearm combatives on the basis of experience with a system of movement with sticks which has been designed to emphasize -- according to its disseminators -- something other than a strictly combative purpose.
I absolutely agree.
You wrote a good piece, and there is nothing within it I have any issue with.
My original comment was specific and the words were carefully chosen.

Riai Maori
04-17-2014, 08:26 PM
My original comment was specific and the words were carefully chosen.

Your original comment is inaccurate and the words chosen foolish, that is why Mr Little has berated you!

lbb
04-18-2014, 10:33 AM
Pig pile, pig pile, don't it look attractive?

Carsten Möllering
04-18-2014, 11:41 AM
... if you ever (EVER!) turn it around and use the wrong end : you're a complete idiot, or ...... member of Hozoin ryű (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCXJGKvdy1g&feature=player_detailpage#t=358) maybe ... ;)
Seems to be the same in Araki ryű (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM2oLZ5afsQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=199).

But seriously: Do these kata contradict your original comment or do I misunderstand you, are you talking about something different?

Keith Larman
04-19-2014, 08:27 AM
... member of Hozoin ryű (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCXJGKvdy1g&feature=player_detailpage#t=358) maybe ... ;)
Seems to be the same in Araki ryű (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM2oLZ5afsQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=199).

But seriously: Do these kata contradict your original comment or do I misunderstand you, are you talking about something different?

Ssssshhhhh! They're idiots, remember? Jeez. Don't muddy the water with facts, we only allow "truthiness" here!

Michael Douglas
04-24-2014, 03:12 PM
... member of Hozoin ryű (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCXJGKvdy1g&feature=player_detailpage#t=358) maybe ... ;)
Seems to be the same in Araki ryű (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM2oLZ5afsQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=199).

But seriously: Do these kata contradict your original comment or do I misunderstand you, are you talking about something different?
Yeah, I'm talking about something different.
Thanks for the links, the iaido vid is beside the point,
the other one (Kendo world video?) is decent kata, with that one butt-strike in for interest, but they both (in my own mind) reinforce my original point.
Now please dig out some videos of the guys in white sparring with identical dummy spears (yes those LONG ones they were using for the kata demo) and see if a butt-strike is ever used. not kata, actual competitive sparring.
I had a go but couldn't find Aikiso in a Kendo stylee.
(Found some Naginata, but oh my god what is the ruleset for that awfulness?)

bkedelen
04-24-2014, 05:36 PM
but they both (in my own mind) reinforce my original point.

Now here is a man with conviction. Despite subject matter experts rejecting your points with prejudice, you challenge Keith to a death match and double down on your mistaken ideas.

I would have gone with an apology and a lot of reading before posting here again, but everyone handles these things differently.

phitruong
04-26-2014, 08:24 PM
Now here is a man with conviction. Despite subject matter experts rejecting your points with prejudice, you challenge Keith to a death match and double down on your mistaken ideas.


i can see myself agree with Michael about the spear. if i wield a spear, i would definitely spend 99% of the time using the business end to shish kebab the other buggers. maybe once in a blue moon, i would use the butt end to knock the other bugger out and take his wallets. kill a man and you can only rob him once. knock him out, you can rob him many times. it calls investment for the future. it's one of the reason why i don't use spear, but a weed whacker. :D

Carsten Möllering
04-27-2014, 02:59 AM
... the iaido vid is beside the point ... aahhmm ...

Did you acutally see the sojutsu kata in what you call "iaido vid"?
Did you recognize the ishizuki of their yari?
Did you notice how they use it?

If so: Why do you think this to be beside the point?
If not: Does a second look change your opinion about the vid?

... Kendo world ... Your talking of "... iaido vid ...", "... kendo world ... " and "competitive sparring" makes me wonder whether your statment is acutally based in practicing any koryű sojutsu?
I apologize for the question, but my English simply is not good enough so that I could differentiate here between someone just using easy language and someone who is not really at home in the subject.

Now please dig out some videos of the guys in white sparring with identical dummy spears (yes those LONG ones they were using for the kata demo) and see if a butt-strike is ever used. not kata, actual competitive sparring.I have to admit, I'm at loss: I assume this is irony?

Michael Douglas
04-28-2014, 08:41 AM
I found some randori.
Folk please watch this, to my eyes this is more relevant to the argument between me and a few others in this thread than the two kata vids posted by Carsten
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN2g-hD_dSw
If either of the two combatants took time to use the butt they would be shishkebabed.
It can happen, sure, but that would amount to messing about.

And
Your talking of "... iaido vid ...", "... kendo world ... "
"Kendo World" is plastered across the base of the video and you're asking me if I watched it!?
I had another quick look at the iaido vid, and sure, its an iaijutsu vid, my bad.
Still just kata.

allowedcloud
04-28-2014, 11:03 AM
I found some randori.
Folk please watch this, to my eyes this is more relevant to the argument between me and a few others in this thread than the two kata vids posted by Carsten
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN2g-hD_dSw
If either of the two combatants took time to use the butt they would be shishkebabed.
It can happen, sure, but that would amount to messing about.

And

"Kendo World" is plastered across the base of the video and you're asking me if I watched it!?
I had another quick look at the iaido vid, and sure, its an iaijutsu vid, my bad.
Still just kata.

The spear was a battlefield weapon.

You are standing on a battlefield and you have a spear (maybe you just finished skewering the guy in front of you) and an enemy is coming up behind you.

What do you do if you want to stay alive?

jonreading
04-28-2014, 12:13 PM
If I am correctly reading Michael's comments, his critical opinion is a disconnect between kata and application, his argument being that transitioning the butt to the front would be less effective than maintaining the spearhead in front. If that's the case, I get where he is coming from. I think this critical observation is consistent with similar observations that kata may not match application. I can think of several military tactics of group deployment that would discourage this transition. But, I am not sure Chris is claiming he is working on battlefield tactics, nor that his kata are transferrable.

I have given up claiming to have any knowledge about actual weapons work. I've had my piece of humble pie just talking and interacting with some great individuals who work on this stuff. There are reasons for battlefield movement. I remember reading a history of warfare that referred to the importance of selecting a battlefield and positioning your troops with the wind to your back to cut the range of projectile weapons. Or the sun to your back. Or elevated ground. I remember talking to someone who advocated the sword entering the body only a few inches, the additional length simply taking longer to stick in and pull out (thus creating a greater duration of vulnerability). I think we are narrowly defining a greater spectrum of knowledge, which maybe could be better worded in criticism.

I think there is nothing wrong claiming what works and what doesn't, but that is a different argument in my mind. Most judo players competitively throw 3-5 throws, yet that does not discredit the collection of judo throws available for training. Rather, it simply highlights a group of throws more effective to the competitive environment.

I met Nolan Ryan as a [very] young pitcher. I asked him how to throw a curve ball like he did. He asked if I had a pretty good fastball. I said, "yes." He said, "then why do you need to throw a curveball?" Talking some of that advice, I often pitched predominantly fastballs until the hitters proved able to hit me. If Michael is simply claiming that the thrust is the predominant application of the spear, I can understand that perspective since I often held the same opinion in my athletics.

To Fred's point (and Keith's), I followed this thread with trepidation that someone who knows this stuff is simply going to read these comments and sigh. Michael, I read a lot of these posts as requests to clarify the scope of your point and not necessarily adversarial to your point. I think your recent confirmation to Carsten about the point you are trying to make may be a greater observation to re-state your claim, if you want to. To be honest, I am applying an conditional statement to my understanding of what you said...

Fred Little
04-28-2014, 01:33 PM
Owari Kan Ryu is a very formidable -- and distinctive -- system of sojutsu, not least because of its use of (among a number of types of spear) a kuda-yari, or a spear with a sleeve on the shaft, typically held with the distal hand, and allowing the trained exponent to repeatedly thrust (while maintaining control of the spear) at a much higher rate than is possible with a standard spear. So much faster, in fact, that it compares to a standard spear in much the same way that a semi-automatic rifle compares with a bolt action rifle. That speed is what is visible in the clip cited above.

These features (along with a number I'm won't belabor her) limit the utility of generalizations made -- to all systems of spear -- from observation of a few minutes of a public presentation of Owari Kan Ryu basic randori training. Nonetheless,while I'm not sure I would relish even a friendly engagement with a trained exponent of Owari Kan Ryu, I am sure that if it came to that, I might well try one or more things intended to direct the tip somewhere far, far away from my own torso -- but even then, I wouldn't dare presume that my opponent hasn't also received adequate training how to use the ishizuki should the need present itself.

FL

Fred Little
04-28-2014, 01:58 PM
Another short example of Hozoin Ryu Sojutsu, using another somewhat unusual spear, the kagi-yari, i.e. a yari with a cross-piece. The name of the form? E-gaeshi. A number of features definitely depend on the kagi, but not all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s26CXKQUO2Y

Michael Douglas
04-28-2014, 02:24 PM
Owari Kan Ryu is a very formidable -- and distinctive -- system of sojutsu, not least because of its use of (among a number of types of spear) a kuda-yari, or a spear with a sleeve on the shaft, typically held with the distal hand, and allowing the trained exponent to repeatedly thrust (while maintaining control of the spear) at a much higher rate than is possible with a standard spear. So much faster, in fact, that it compares to a standard spear in much the same way that a semi-automatic rifle compares with a bolt action rifle. That speed is what is visible in the clip cited above.
No it isn't - faster. (shock horror again?)
The clip I linked to (the first one I found showing competition) shows normal speed from two fairly fit guys using spears in theirs hands as usual : if they turn out to have had tubes ... it still looks perfectly normal to me, and identical to my use of a normal spear without a tube. It is fast. Fast is normal. Fast is necessary.
They look like I'd expect them to look, they look like they are doing effective spear combat with safety measures. No more no less, this stuff is universal.

Fred Little
04-28-2014, 02:42 PM
Had I pursued ordination, I might well be reviewing the following verses for next Sunday's sermon:

Mark 8:18, Psalms 135:16, Jeremiah 5:21, Ezekiel 12:2, Matthew 13:15, Romans 11:8.

I have not the power required to invoke Acts 28:27, yet wish you every success in finding an acorn.

FL

Keith Larman
04-28-2014, 03:17 PM
Nevermind.

Fred, you have vastly more patience than me. I'm in awe.

hughrbeyer
04-29-2014, 08:21 AM
"Those who make them will be like them,
and so will all who trust in them."

I am in awe of your Bible-fu.

Keith Larman
12-31-2014, 11:38 AM
Just fwiw for trivia buffs. Dusted this off in my workshop last night and took a quick photo. Ishizuki made of solid iron from a broken yari pole. Notice the end for straight thrusts. And notice the way the object is made for highly focused strikes from the side. And also the weight is significant. That would leave a mark.

Again, just fwiw for those interested in an example. No need to rehash the conversation. Just what we in the biz like to call "sword porn". Pretty pictures. In this case, fairly mundane, actually, but it does make a point... ;)

Keith Larman
12-31-2014, 05:06 PM
And as an interesting side note, a friend sent me this... European Mace. Notice the design and similarities. The use of the finial as a end point and then the flanges. And these maces were most certainly intended to be used as impact weapons. Just fwiw.