Throwing with shihonage

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[tim evans]

Having trouble throwing with power. I,m throwing more outward than downward if that makes any sense any thoughts.thanks

[ChrisHein]

You are likely not getting enough arch on your turn. When you turn, exaggerate the distance you pull uke's hands from his body, this with better break his balance. If done correctly, he should be falling before you even finnish your throw.

[allowedcloud]

Hi Tim,

Imagine doing shihonage with a sword.

The basic form is: tsuki - raise to jodan - turn - shomen strike. So as you throw at the end imagine cutting with a sword like you're doing suburi - but gently. Actually as you do this you really shouldn't be throwing with your arm muscles at all. Something I've been working on is to try to initiate the throw with my legs and knees - legs spiral to move center (hara), center moves the arms ("one thing moves everything moves")

You can also practice breathing while doing the technique. As you inhale imagine your breath flowing from the earth into your feet, up your legs and filling your center (hara) and coming up the spine - while at the same time dropping your weight. As you exhale imagine your breath flowing out through your fingertips. If done correctly uke should experience an 'up' sensation before being thrown.

Also keep your center facing uke at all times. Uke should never be behind you (unless you're doing ushiro waza where the point is to remedy that situation as soon as possible) or to the side of you.

Best of luck!

[Janet Rosen]

yep

Hi Tim,

Imagine doing shihonage with a sword.

The basic form is: tsuki - raise to jodan - turn - shomen strike. So as you throw at the end imagine cutting with a sword like you're doing suburi - but gently. Actually as you do this you really shouldn't be throwing with your arm muscles at all. Something I've been working on is to try to initiate the throw with my legs and knees - legs spiral to move center (hara), center moves the arms ("one thing moves everything moves")

You can also practice breathing while doing the technique. As you inhale imagine your breath flowing from the earth into your feet, up your legs and filling your center (hara) and coming up the spine - while at the same time dropping your weight. As you exhale imagine your breath flowing out through your fingertips. If done correctly uke should experience an 'up' sensation before being thrown.

Also keep your center facing uke at all times. Uke should never be behind you (unless you're doing ushiro waza where the point is to remedy that situation as soon as possible) or to the side of you.

Best of luck!

[NagaBaba]

Here you have an excellent example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgBS1IcrNzo

[Janet Rosen]

Here you have an excellent example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgBS1IcrNzo

I know that often video doesn't "show" what is happening, but watching this a few times, while the technique is being done crisply and cleanly, I don't see uke being off-balance - either laterally weighted onto one foot or uprooted onto tiptoe - before Kanai Sensei moves under her arm.
I don't consider it safe for me as nage to proceed if my opening hasn't unbalanced uke.
I may be off-base here but that's my honest interpretation of what I'm seeing.

[robin_jet_alt]

Here you have an excellent example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgBS1IcrNzo

An excellent example of what? I don't usually like to criticise teachers with more experience than I have, but to me, that is an excellent example of every bad habit that I try to avoid in my shiho-nage. Particularly note how his bum slips out during his turn so that he is left with arms extended and no ability to cut down. I imagine this might be the problem that the OP was having.

[odudog]

There are two types of throws from Shihonage. You are currently doing the throwaway version. Master that then move onto the throw directly down version. Both are valid and used for different situations. I was first taught the throwaway.

[Basia Halliop]

There are two types of throws from Shihonage. You are currently doing the throwaway version. Master that then move onto the throw directly down version. Both are valid and used for different situations. I was first taught the throwaway.

Yeah, that was what I was wondering reading the original poster. Is he saying he's currently throwing out and wants to throw down, or that he's trying to throw more outward than downward but not succeeding? I think the former but it's not really clear to me from the wording of the question.

Personally I was taught the outward version first, and it's the one I generally always aim for if I'm not trying to pin.

[Basia Halliop]

"he is left with arms extended and no ability to cut down"

LOL. Preeeeeety sure he's extending his arms on purpose to deliberately throw out and away, rather than down...

[phitruong]

"he is left with arms extended and no ability to cut down"

LOL. Preeeeeety sure he's extending his arms on purpose to deliberately throw out and away, rather than down...

arms don't throw. body throws.

[Basia Halliop]

arms don't throw. body throws.

Precisely. Arms extended before you start to throw, so that when you slide your body forward, the movement of the body is transferred effectively to uke without requiring any force from the arms.

[Basia Halliop]

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not explaining it well, just -- pretty darn sure he's doing that on purpose.

If the poster is trying to throw down, though, it's maybe less relevant.

Possibly more useful to ask his someone in his own dojo to watch what he's doing, or to take ukemi and see what they feel.

[Basia Halliop]

I can think of more than one different downward version I've seen and felt, too... E.g. some people seem to throw more directly down, where the shomen cut is particularly noticeable, which others rotate their body more at the same time, so it seems to feel more spirally... probably other versions, too...

[tim evans]

Hi Tim,

Imagine doing shihonage with a sword.

The basic form is: tsuki - raise to jodan - turn - shomen strike. So as you throw at the end imagine cutting with a sword like you're doing suburi - but gently. Actually as you do this you really shouldn't be throwing with your arm muscles at all. Something I've been working on is to try to initiate the throw with my legs and knees - legs spiral to move center (hara), center moves the arms ("one thing moves everything moves")

You can also practice breathing while doing the technique. As you inhale imagine your breath flowing from the earth into your feet, up your legs and filling your center (hara) and coming up the spine - while at the same time dropping your weight. As you exhale imagine your breath flowing out through your fingertips. If done correctly uke should experience an 'up' sensation before being thrown.

Also keep your center facing uke at all times. Uke should never be behind you (unless you're doing ushiro waza where the point is to remedy that situation as soon as possible) or to the side of you.

Best of luck!

Hey josh,I worked on this with paul it,s a totally differrent feeling from pinning them on the mat. I almost feel like I,m going to pull ukes arm out of socket doing it. and still trying to figure out how to get my body to do the throw. I,ll get it.

[allowedcloud]

Hey josh,I worked on this with paul it,s a totally differrent feeling from pinning them on the mat. I almost feel like I,m going to pull ukes arm out of socket doing it. and still trying to figure out how to get my body to do the throw. I,ll get it.

Hmm, do I owe Paul an apology? :eek:

William Gleason sensei will be giving a seminar in Toledo October 3-5th. You should come for even just a day or so if you're able. He's sure to be working on this stuff with us, and more! :)

[tim evans]

Hmm, do I owe Paul an apology? :eek:

William Gleason sensei will be giving a seminar in Toledo October 3-5th. You should come for even just a day or so if you're able. He's sure to be working on this stuff with us, and more! :)
Paul's a great teacher hopefully get to come to the evening classes in the next month.i,ll check and see if I,m working that weekend in oct.

[robin_jet_alt]

Precisely. Arms extended before you start to throw, so that when you slide your body forward, the movement of the body is transferred effectively to uke without requiring any force from the arms.

The trouble with this is what happens when uke steps back? Try it sometime. Tori moves forward with arms extended, uke steps back and takes their arm back.

[odudog]

The trouble with this is what happens when uke steps back? Try it sometime. Tori moves forward with arms extended, uke steps back and takes their arm back.

Nage didn't do the throw correctly. The throw is too horizontal. Also, the slide forward was not big enough.

[robin_jet_alt]

Nage didn't do the throw correctly. The throw is too horizontal.

Yes. It is too horizontal. The reason for this is that tori is not in a position to cut downwards. Tori is not in that position because he has moved through too deeply and stuck his bum out so that when he turns, he is disconnected from uke and uke has regained her balance.

Also, the slide forward was not big enough.

When tori is so far away from uke that he is completely disconnected and he must completely extend his arms just to maintain his grip, how big should that slide forward be? I bet I can take a bigger step back than he can take forward under those circumstances.

In the above video, Kanai sensei either has a very kind uke, or more likely, and uke who knows that sensei is happy to do the elbow breaker version (like the faster ones he does at the end) if he encounters resistance. On that note, uke falls very well from those later throws, and serves as a good example the person who wanted to know how to take high break falls.

By the way, if Chris Li would like to elaborate on his earlier response, that would be nice. I'm pretty sure I know what you mean, and I admit my terminology lacked a fair bit of precision and finesse. I've really appreciated being proved wrong by you in the past, and it has always given me something to think about.

[NagaBaba]

I know that often video doesn't "show" what is happening, but watching this a few times, while the technique is being done crisply and cleanly, I don't see uke being off-balance - either laterally weighted onto one foot or uprooted onto tiptoe - before Kanai Sensei moves under her arm.
I don't consider it safe for me as nage to proceed if my opening hasn't unbalanced uke.
I may be off-base here but that's my honest interpretation of what I'm seeing.

I'm not sure it is right place to discuss about Kanai sensei detailed teaching. My intention was to provide an example of powerful throwing from shihonage as requested by Tim. As one can see it quite possible to throw from shihonage with a lot of power an still uke can receive technique in safe way.

Yes we throw this way outside, in order to i.e. maitain correct nage posture - throwing inside compromises martial principles. Also, unbalncing is done by maintaining strong lock on attacker arm elbow from the moment of the contact all time down + keeping him always in mouvent.
This strong lock serves as a connection to uke center so in the moment of throwing it is enough that nage moves his center across a center of uke and throw happens without doing any waving with the arms.

[NagaBaba]

An excellent example of what? I don't usually like to criticise teachers with more experience than I have, but to me, that is an excellent example of every bad habit that I try to avoid in my shiho-nage. Particularly note how his bum slips out during his turn so that he is left with arms extended and no ability to cut down. I imagine this might be the problem that the OP was having.
How should I say it in polite way :) I'm so happy your are able to spot your bad habits! Keep practice!

[Robert Cowham]

Here you have an excellent example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgBS1IcrNzo

I am not so keen on what he demonstrates slowly - too horizontal. But when things speed up it is much more to my taste - more vertical.

YMMV :)

[odudog]

Yes. It is too horizontal. The reason for this is that tori is not in a position to cut downwards. Tori is not in that position because he has moved through too deeply and stuck his bum out so that when he turns, he is disconnected from uke and uke has regained her balance.

When tori is so far away from uke that he is completely disconnected and he must completely extend his arms just to maintain his grip, how big should that slide forward be? I bet I can take a bigger step back than he can take forward under those circumstances.

There are many reasons for doing it in this manner. Other things are in play. From the origin of the technique, there is a sword cut to the waist, hence sticking the butt out so in front of your partner preventing the tip of the sword from getting stuck and having the tip doing most of the damage.. This position is also more favorable to break the shoulder or elbow.

Also, if you slide forward in a particular fashion, you can go deeper than your partner can step back.

[robin_jet_alt]

Also, unbalncing is done by maintaining strong lock on attacker arm elbow from the moment of the contact all time down + keeping him always in mouvent.
This strong lock serves as a connection to uke center so in the moment of throwing it is enough that nage moves his center across a center of uke and throw happens without doing any waving with the arms.

I can clearly see that the arm lock makes this work, particularly in the faster version. Bill Gleason has an excellent quote about aikido that relies on arm locks to make it work.

Mike, it is really hard to discuss technique online like this. Hopefully one day we will be able to train together to show each other what we mean.

For now, I agree with Janet.

[robin_jet_alt]

Just a small addition, but the picture below shows the position I like to end up in with Shiho-nage. Contrast this with Kanai sensei and you will see it is quite different.

http://blog.aikidojournal.com/media/morihei-shihonage.jpg

[PaulF]

We're encouraged to end up looking into uke's ear, at full perpendicular, and to cut straight down our centre line, since this is where their point of imbalance is and if we try to throw uke to their rear they can just walk backwards to resist, or perform kaeshiwaza. However, I've seen a lot of senior grades project in different directions and I suspect this is one of those cases where there's a big difference between the precise theory and the practice when using a good uke who can take a variety of falls.

[Bill Danosky]

For ichi (linear): Strike your uke and get a firm wrist lock. Get low as you step through. Keep the torque of the wrist lock applied. Don't be afraid to use both hands and keep them right in front of your face. Make sure you can always see your hands as you change direction. Do not allow any slack to develop on the wrist lock. Stand tall and straighten your arm(s) as you touch uke's fingers to his shoulder blade. Now, touch uke's fingers to the ground next to your ankle. Deliver your finishing strike. Do all those and you will have a very powerful Shihonage.

[robin_jet_alt]

For ichi (linear): Strike your uke and get a firm wrist lock. Get low as you step through. Keep the torque of the wrist lock applied. Don't be afraid to use both hands and keep them right in front of your face. Make sure you can always see your hands as you change direction. Do not allow any slack to develop on the wrist lock. Stand tall and straighten your arm(s) as you touch uke's fingers to his shoulder blade. Now, touch uke's fingers to the ground next to your ankle. Deliver your finishing strike. Do all those and you will have a very powerful Shihonage.

Haha... I was reading this and thinking "this guy does Yoshinkan" before I read the thing under your name that says "Yoshinkan".

[Bill Danosky]

It does make a statement. That's not to say Yoshinkan Aikido is without finesse, but it's concerned with perfecting the motions. In my personal view, Ki is the tremendous power of our intention. "I am executing the technique." Saito Sensei, for instance, had some extremely fierce Ki. Tohei often spoke about committing to the execution of a technique.

It's quite remarkable that we have a conscious presence at all. Truly noteworthy. It would be hard to believe that it's effect is limited to what happens inside your head.

[robin_jet_alt]

It does make a statement. That's not to say Yoshinkan Aikido is without finesse, but it's concerned with perfecting the motions. In my personal view, Ki is the tremendous power of our intention. "I am executing the technique." Saito Sensei, for instance, had some extremely fierce Ki. Tohei often spoke about committing to the execution of a technique.

It's quite remarkable that we have a conscious presence at all. Truly noteworthy. It would be hard to believe that it's effect is limited to what happens inside your head.

I agree. I certainly didn't mean to belittle Yoshinkan at all. It's just funny that it is so distinctive that I can tell that you practice it just from your description of shiho-nage.

I actually met Inoue sensei (formerly of Yoshinkan) a few years ago, and I really liked what he had to say about the reasoning behind why the Yoshinkan syllabus is the way it is. It made a lot of sense to me.

[Bill Danosky]

It's just funny that it is so distinctive that I can tell that you practice it just from your description of shiho-nage.

We laugh about it, too. It's kind of a fraternal joke. There's a hell of a punch in the middle of Sankajo ichi that often gets gasps from students of other lineages.

[jeremymcmillan]

You are likely not getting enough arch on your turn. When you turn, exaggerate the distance you pull uke's hands from his body, this with better break his balance. If done correctly, he should be falling before you even finnish your throw.

The pulling-back shihonage throw will break uke's arm with a spiral fracture. That's a great idea on the battlefield. It's not such a great idea on the mat, or probably even on the street.

http://www.wheelessonline.com/ortho/humeral_shaft_fracture

[jeremymcmillan]

Having trouble throwing with power. I,m throwing more outward than downward if that makes any sense any thoughts.thanks

Maybe you know all of this already, maybe not, but this is a public forum so I'll answer as if any kohai student asked me this. Shihonage is one of my favorites, maybe because I am short. If you are much taller than uke, it will help to get in really good shape so that your core is strong enough to make the squatting pivot movement comfortable and easy. If you lift uke's arm overhead, or bend over instead of squatting to get under uke's arm, you will lose aiki, and power.

You can also try lifting the elbow of the arm uke gives you, during the tenkan movement, by making the first part of ushirotori undo movement of your arms. Draw in a deep breath. (I'm currently working on breath/kokyu power) This movement will lift uke's center and force uke's chest out and head back. If you do this fully, your arm will end up underneath uke's arm, and with aiki, this force will end up partly supporting uke. If you release uke in this situation, uke will fall, straight down, without need to apply any additional power to the throw.

To apply additional power, as you pivot and "wind up" uke's arm, imagine it is a bokken, bringing it up in front of your face, keeping your spine plumb, and execute a shomenuchi cut movement with uke's arm-bokken. Release the drawn up breath. This movement can force uke to take a very high breakfall if you are underneath uke's upper body weight as I have described above, with very little additional power when aiki. It's easier to throw uke shihonage for breakfalls as suwari waza. It's all about raising uke's center/fulcrum and then dropping it suddenly. It only seems like a power throw. Adding power just spins uke's body in midair around his center of gravity.

[Janet Rosen]

You can also try lifting the elbow of the arm uke gives you, during the tenkan movement, by making the first part of ushirotori undo movement of your arms. Draw in a deep breath. (I'm currently working on breath/kokyu power) This movement will lift uke's center and force uke's chest out and head back. If you do this fully, your arm will end up underneath uke's arm, and with aiki, this force will end up partly supporting uke. If you release uke in this situation, uke will fall, straight down, without need to apply any additional power to the throw.

I like to bring the hand to my forehead, and use the thumb webbing of my other hand to make uke's elbow pivot upward and out like a wheel - as a short person this is a good way for me to float uke upward.
I like the downward release as opposed to the outward release, and keep uke's arm tight against her body then like a small wave breaking over her shoulder curl the hand over and down in front of my center. Like a bokken cut as gentle or as powerful as called for in the moment.

[jeremymcmillan]

I like to bring the hand to my forehead, and use the thumb webbing of my other hand to make uke's elbow pivot upward and out like a wheel - as a short person this is a good way for me to float uke upward.
I like the downward release as opposed to the outward release, and keep uke's arm tight against her body then like a small wave breaking over her shoulder curl the hand over and down in front of my center. Like a bokken cut as gentle or as powerful as called for in the moment.

I do this too, sometimes, whenever, for whatever reason, my forearm doesn't match up with uke's forearm.

Apparently this works with munetski irimi tenkan kotegaesh also, encouraging uke to extend, rather than withdraw ki.
http://thinkingmartial.blogspot.com/2013/08/i-cheat-at-aikido.html

[Janet Rosen]

I do this too, sometimes, whenever, for whatever reason, my forearm doesn't match up with uke's forearm.

Apparently this works with munetski irimi tenkan kotegaesh also, encouraging uke to extend, rather than withdraw ki.
http://thinkingmartial.blogspot.com/2013/08/i-cheat-at-aikido.html

If it make uke tense up, not a good idea. If it continues to lead uke to further imbalance, good idea. YMMV depending on uke... :)

[tim evans]

Thanks for all the replies

[Bill Danosky]

Just a small addition, but the picture below shows the position I like to end up in with Shiho-nage. Contrast this with Kanai sensei and you will see it is quite different.

http://blog.aikidojournal.com/media/morihei-shihonage.jpg

We like to end up more like this picture before we actually execute the throw. http://www.aikidotakemusu.org/sites/default/files/styles/ct-long/public/img/ct64-05.jpg

My instructor would probably tell that guy he needs to stand up a little taller, though...

[robin_jet_alt]

We like to end up more like this picture before we actually execute the throw. http://www.aikidotakemusu.org/sites/default/files/styles/ct-long/public/img/ct64-05.jpg

My instructor would probably tell that guy he needs to stand up a little taller, though...

Tell O-sensei to stand up straighter? I'd like to see that...

[Bill Danosky]

Tell O-sensei to stand up straighter? I'd like to see that...

"That was a joke, son." You might have guessed I can recognize O Sensei. We Yoshi-orcs are thought to be a little stiff, by many other practitioners.

[phitruong]

"That was a joke, son." You might have guessed I can recognize O Sensei. We Yoshi-orcs are thought to be a little stiff, by many other practitioners.

the notion of yoshin-orcs have a sense of humor is foreign to us regular aikido folks. it kinda unnatural, and we all know that aikido folks abhored unnatural stuffs. we even go as far as stop discussing aiki, because it's unnatural to aikido. so please stop with the humor so we can be back to the natural order of things, doing do-si-do. :D

[robin_jet_alt]

"That was a joke, son." You might have guessed I can recognize O Sensei. We Yoshi-orcs are thought to be a little stiff, by many other practitioners.

I know. I'd still like to see it :)

[Billy Brown]

I'm afraid everyone is missing the point. You can talk about this all you want. Do the technique a few thousand times and you'll figure it out. From what I have read O Sensei never explained his techniques....he practiced them with sincerity and honesty :D

[robin_jet_alt]

I'm afraid everyone is missing the point. You can talk about this all you want. Do the technique a few thousand times and you'll figure it out. From what I have read O Sensei never explained his techniques....he practiced them with sincerity and honesty :D

As someone who is missing the point, am I correct in interpreting this to mean O-sensei never explained his techniques and yet all of his students who trained diligently were able to emulate him perfectly? I'm not sure that this is the case...

[Malicat]

Haha... I was reading this and thinking "this guy does Yoshinkan" before I read the thing under your name that says "Yoshinkan".

We do it the same way in Wadokai as well. I was reading the description and thought, wow, this is a great way to explain it! :)

--Ashley

[Conrad Gus]

I have a weird feeling that this photo is deceiving. At first glance, it looks like he is driving forward with his head. But take a second and look at the feet: his weight is obviously on his front foot, which would make a forward movement fairly powerless - not typical of O Sensei at all.

I think he is actually pushing off his front foot, dropping back and bouncing uke into the hole that his body is leaving. That would make the head position seem very natural.

I hope uke was feeling sharp that day. :eek:

[Bill Danosky]

You can talk about this all you want. Do the technique a few thousand times and you'll figure it out.

"We only improve at what we practice correctly." But I still love your quote, and the sentiment behind it.

[Bill Danosky]

I have a weird feeling that this photo is deceiving... his weight is obviously on his front foot, which would make a forward movement fairly powerless - not typical of O Sensei at all.

I think he is actually pushing off his front foot, dropping back and bouncing uke into the hole that his body is leaving. That would make the head position seem very natural...

We are about 60% weighted on the front foot at that point, but our posture is erect and our throwing arm is stiff and angled sharply downward. Uke is falling distinctly downward, moreso than forward. Kind of like Saito Sensei is doing here, but shite is more upright, so uke's back is more parallell to the floor: http://members.aikidojournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/morihiro-saito-shihonage-2-uke.jpg

[Billy Brown]

As someone who is missing the point, am I correct in interpreting this to mean O-sensei never explained his techniques and yet all of his students who trained diligently were able to emulate him perfectly? I'm not sure that this is the case...

That's some extrapolation. No not at all. There is truth but right and wrong comes down to personal choice,bias, ego etc There are guidelines. The only way to cut to the truth is to practice the technique....alot. Practice practice practice. Everyone is giving great tips but in the end you need to train and discover through training.....Yes the Tengu is in you also. Ganbatte!!!

[Bill Danosky]

The only way to cut to the truth is to practice the technique....alot. Practice practice practice. Everyone is giving great tips but in the end you need to train and discover through training...

Hell

yeah.

BB gets a gold star.

[JP3]

I know that often video doesn't "show" what is happening, but watching this a few times, while the technique is being done crisply and cleanly, I don't see uke being off-balance - either laterally weighted onto one foot or uprooted onto tiptoe - before Kanai Sensei moves under her arm.
I don't consider it safe for me as nage to proceed if my opening hasn't unbalanced uke.
I may be off-base here but that's my honest interpretation of what I'm seeing.

Ditto that. Don't turn if uke isn't off-balance, posture-broken, something.

[sakumeikan]

Having trouble throwing with power. I,m throwing more outward than downward if that makes any sense any thoughts.thanks
Dear Tim,
Let me ask you a question-does your Uke hit the ground each time you do shiho nage?If the answer is yes, why do you need to have to throw with power?Is it not enough to simply make sure uke hits the deck? When I trained with Sekiya Sensei[ Chiba Sensei' father in law] he never at any time used powerful waza.At the same time he always pinned or threw you with ease-totally painless and safe.
Shiho nage done incorrectly with power can dislocate the collar bone and also plays havoc with the elbow joints.
Rather than try to be Rambo or King Kong,why not forsake power and acquire skills?If you receive /use power its unlikely your or your ukes body will be fit after 30 /40 years training.
your throwing direction imo is not qite right.Ask yourself the question , do you want to send uke to the floor or throw uke up in the air and thiry feet away [for example]??I would suggest you should send uke to the floor in the shortest route possible ie to the ground [downward to the mat ].
Have a nice day , Joe.

[tim evans]

Joe, I want to protect my uke as much as possible so I have refrained from throwing with shionage I feel like I may rip there arm out of socket so I,m back to taking balance on the turn and cut to the mat.

[sakumeikan]

Dear All,
I may well be biased here,since Chiba Sensei is my teacher but here is a good example imo of shiho nage,.Check out on youtube' Chiba Sensei on O Senseis evolution of ShihoNage'.Dont know how to give your the url no.
You will hear /see Chiba Sensei stating that O Sensei was open to a foot sweep from his uke.O sensei apparently modified the Shiho nage to resolve te issue.Enjoy. cheers, Joe.

[sakumeikan]

Joe, I want to protect my uke as much as possible so I have refrained from throwing with shionage I feel like I may rip there arm out of socket so I,m back to taking balance on the turn and cut to the mat.

Dear Tim,
Good news here. You will no doubt be more popular in training.Cannot have guys with one arm missing can we? Might end up calling Aikido Un armed combat!!.Cheers, Joe.

[PeterR]

Groan

[lbb]

You will hear /see Chiba Sensei stating that O Sensei was open to a foot sweep from his uke.O sensei apparently modified the Shiho nage to resolve te issue.Enjoy. cheers, Joe.

I LOVE that footwork. Just love it.

[Keith Larman]

Dear Tim,
Let me ask you a question-does your Uke hit the ground each time you do shiho nage?If the answer is yes, why do you need to have to throw with power?Is it not enough to simply make sure uke hits the deck? When I trained with Sekiya Sensei[ Chiba Sensei' father in law] he never at any time used powerful waza.At the same time he always pinned or threw you with ease-totally painless and safe.
Shiho nage done incorrectly with power can dislocate the collar bone and also plays havoc with the elbow joints.
Rather than try to be Rambo or King Kong,why not forsake power and acquire skills?If you receive /use power its unlikely your or your ukes body will be fit after 30 /40 years training.
your throwing direction imo is not qite right.Ask yourself the question , do you want to send uke to the floor or throw uke up in the air and thiry feet away [for example]??I would suggest you should send uke to the floor in the shortest route possible ie to the ground [downward to the mat ].
Have a nice day , Joe.

Just to echo what Mr. Curran here is saying, sure, you can fairly easily perform a powerfully nasty shihonage, especially on an unsuspecting (read that untrained) person. That said, spending the time and sweat equity to learn to do it smoothly, softly ending with a proper pin is a higher level skill that (at least IMHO) will serve you well. Even after a whole lot of years I find it to be a challenging thing to accomplish, especially with injuries and some congenital problems physically. That said, at this point doing it in a mean and nasty way ain't all that difficult. If you can do it in the way Mr. Curran has described, you always have the option to make it quite devastating. That option is always there if you need it a and get there from the right direction, so to speak. But if all you have is the mean, nasty, bust stuff up version, there are times you might find that you have no other options but mean, nasty, and bust stuff up. I'd rather have more options...

FWIW I've had my share of injuries from overly ambitious shihonage being applied to me. Frankly, these days, I'll bow out of training with anyone I don't already know. The body just can't take the enthusiasm any longer...

But all that said... Lots of opinions and ideas on these topics... All have their merits depending on what you're looking for.

Best of luck.

[lbb]

The other thing about skill vs. power: particularly when dealing with an untrained person, when (not if) that person does something completely unexpected, which will serve you better, power or skill? Never mind keeping them safe, just in terms of keeping you safe -- isn't "acquiring a higher skill level" going to serve you better?

[Keith Larman]

The other thing about skill vs. power: particularly when dealing with an untrained person, when (not if) that person does something completely unexpected, which will serve you better, power or skill? Never mind keeping them safe, just in terms of keeping you safe -- isn't "acquiring a higher skill level" going to serve you better?

Absolutely. Seriously power moves (at least in my experience) are rather difficult to abort or transition to other things mid stream if you feel things changing. I like the flexibility of being able to deal with changes (basically kaeshi waza).

On a related note, I truly dislike when I see people do things in the dojo way too damned fast. Many shihonage are done that way by way too many people. What I see is someone using speed and power to compensate for poor form. Yeah, it makes it harder to exploit the openings in a student's technique, but maybe that student should be focusing on not having the openings in the first place.

So when all that is there, in place, and good form rules the day, it is trivial to break the attacker. You can destroy them at any point if you wish. To me that's the difference between crude but what may be effective technique and a person who is truly good at martial arts.

Just an observation pointed at no one in particular.

[Hilary]

Keith you point about speed is really well taken. Speed and momentum obscures flawed technique and those flaws invite injury. What I find myself doing these days is taking uke’s attack at whatever speed it comes in at and then buy the time the throwing kazushi occurs I have slowed down and often find myself shedding momentum from my hara only half way through the movement and letting the arms die. The throw occurs at reasonable speed but I get to do the initial parts just as fast as uke enters. I don’t know if I would have trusted myself to do this 5 years ago.

[Keith Larman]

Keith you point about speed is really well taken. Speed and momentum obscures flawed technique and those flaws invite injury. What I find myself doing these days is taking uke’s attack at whatever speed it comes in at and then buy the time the throwing kazushi occurs I have slowed down and often find myself shedding momentum from my hara only half way through the movement and letting the arms die. The throw occurs at reasonable speed but I get to do the initial parts just as fast as uke enters. I don’t know if I would have trusted myself to do this 5 years ago.

I'll have the students try to do it at as slow a speed as possible with uke trying to feel if there is any opening anywhere. And by that I mean a loss of lead, kuzushi, connection or slack coming in to play. Then, and only then, start going a little faster. Or have them adjust the speed constantly to just mess with uke. So they can feel what's really possible and that the point isn't the speed and power, but the connection and smoothness.

Or is it just that silly aiki thing again? Hmmm. :P

[Keith Larman]

Or... One mantra. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

IMHO speed should be a potential that instantiates with proper skill.

[Adam Huss]

Hmm, do I owe Paul an apology? :eek:

William Gleason sensei will be giving a seminar in Toledo October 3-5th. You should come for even just a day or so if you're able. He's sure to be working on this stuff with us, and more! :)

Spain or Ohio? lol

[Adam Huss]

We're encouraged to end up looking into uke's ear, at full perpendicular, and to cut straight down our centre line, since this is where their point of imbalance is and if we try to throw uke to their rear they can just walk backwards to resist, or perform kaeshiwaza. However, I've seen a lot of senior grades project in different directions and I suspect this is one of those cases where there's a big difference between the precise theory and the practice when using a good uke who can take a variety of falls.

Who do you train with that teaches this orientation to uke?

thanks!

Adam

[Adam Huss]

I'm afraid everyone is missing the point. You can talk about this all you want. Do the technique a few thousand times and you'll figure it out. From what I have read O Sensei never explained his techniques....he practiced them with sincerity and honesty :D

Training the technique a few thousand times poorly, with no concept of what's making it work, does nothing for you.

[Hilary]

Keith:
I just had the “we practice slow but can speed up just fine” concept revalidated for me. One of our sandans who has been out for about 5 years (overseas), rejoined us. He originally trained in Japan under a hardcore Japanese war vet, likes to go old school hard and fast.

So while sensei took a brief vacation he decided to speed things up in front of a couple of kyus. To be clear there was no malintent on his part, a little ego (but let he who is without sin cast the first stone), and an honest intent to demonstrate a bit of reality and more intense level of training. Boom kaiten nage off of punches full speed, half power. It had been several years since I trained that and it came out like butter. Yeah the arm intercept shifted from wrist to elbow, due to speed and depth of entry, which made it easier and potentially a much harder throw if I had goosed it. Most of the time I didn’t even have to touch his neck, the arm was so connected (yoked) to his elbow.

What was nice is one of the kyus who has boxing, wrestling, and hsing ye experience (however that is spelled) said “wow it really does speed up just fine”. Felt great because as an accomplished martial artist in other styles, I’m sure he had some doubt about the speed up and power up claims we make in this art. Now if I can just get the sandan to slow down so he doesn’t pop the screws in his shoulders I‘ll consider it a total victory. Because even with me shedding energy before peak power, the throw is much harder. Nice to feel it and be reminded that it is easy to ratchet up, but I’d rather extend my injury free streak. I’m with you on the mantra Keith, I would add “he who does not break trains longer”.

[phitruong]

Training the technique a few thousand times poorly, with no concept of what's making it work, does nothing for you.

of course it does something for you. you are just very good at doing it poorly. :)

[Keith Larman]

Training the technique a few thousand times poorly, with no concept of what's making it work, does nothing for you.

Gotta comment that there is a happy middle ground to this. I agree completely that just talking about it is a waste of time. But then again so is constant practice without guidance and purpose (the "figure out it as you go" model). Me, I'd like some guidance, a few questions answered, and lots of practice as I'm doing all those things.

Funny how in an on-line forum things tend to sound like each person ends up in one extreme or another when most probably realize quite well that there is a happy medium.

Not saying anyone is actually advocating any extreme. The reality is that practice is important and so is discussion. So with that said... Gonna go practice a few things before class tonight... :)

[Adam Huss]

Yeah that's true. It's easy to misinterpret intention online. I guess my comment was more toward people I see having a lack of understanding of how a technique works and teachers by telling others to 'just practice more.' There is definitely a potential for too much talking on one extreme, and too much "doing the wrong thing" on another. I feel like finding a balance between the two is probably a little more tricky than most suspect.