how to classify kokyunage

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[dapidmini]

me and my friends in our dojo have been discussion about what techniques can be classified as kokyunage. especially since the kyu exams are coming up, the examinees are getting anxious..:dead: some people say that kokyunage are throws that don't already have a specific name (iriminage, kotegaeshi, udekimenage, etc), but some other say that kokyunage are any throws that uses the kokyu.:cool:

what is kokyunage in your opinion? which is correct?:confused:

[JJF]

The way I understand it Kokyu nage are 'breath' throws - or 'flow' throws. It's the types of throws that we do in order to single out the principle of allowing the power of uke to go forward in a simple manner so that you as nage focus onbody movement, breath and not obstructing the momentum of uke rather than on doing a specific lock or throw.

Tenchi nage is sort of a weird in-between technique as I see it. It's based on kokyo to a large extend, but also requires some rather precise hand movements/positions in order to work. I will allow it as a kokyonage at a grading, but there are so many others to choose from..

Hope it helps

JJ

Also.. google is your friend:
http://www.aikido-world.com/highlights/technical%20_tips/kokunage.htm
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2661

[lbb]

Kokyunage = what we call it when we don't know what else to call it:D

[ChrisHein]

It's a tricky one. First off, ask your sensei, they know what they will expect of you on a test, and how your specific Dojo defines "Kokyu Nage".

However in the world of Aikido, Kokyu nage is a tricky one. Saito Sensei seems to use Kokyu nage as a catch all for odd ball throws. I have also heard it said that any throw done with "kokyu" can be called a Kokyu nage, however all Aikido throws use kokyu, so why have any other names? Well because that would get super hard to understand what we were talking about. At our dojo we define a "classic" Kokyu nage as the side by side throw where both Uke and Nage are facing the same direction, like this http://www.aikidostudent.com/oldasc/content/?p=238

Every Aikido throw is kind of like this, I think Ueshiba was pointing at principles when he named his techniques, and not the mechanical specifics of the throw. Irimi Nage, can be done many different ways, in fact one variation of Irimi nage is the exact throw I showed above as Kokyu nage- it can be called an Irimi nage as well though, because you must enter with your body to do that throw. When it comes to naming the Nage waza of Aikido you have to get a feeling of what part is important in the variation you are doing, then it's clear as to why a teacher would call one throw something (like irimi, kokyu, kaiten) instead of calling it something else, the main principle of the throw is the important part, not the mechanical specifics. This all makes understanding Aikido nomenclature very difficult for the newer student.

Hope that helps!

When I teach I always refer to techniques as "classic" when I say that my students know that I'm saying this is the mechanical specifics of the throw most commonly called by whatever name I'm using. Some times I will even say something like this is a "classic Iwama" or "classic Aikikai" etc, so they know that one lineage uses that name to describe these mechanical specifics. So again, ask your Sensei, they know what they want to see on tests, and can give you their interpretation of why a throw should be given a specific name.

[Basia Halliop]

Lots of techniques can be called kokyunage but you said you're asking for testing purposes, and your Sensei may have a specific technique or techniques that he'd like you demonstrate for the test. Ask your sempais and/or sensei.

[graham christian]

Actually I'd say it translates nicely as spiritual. Spiritual 'throws' or techniques.

Peace.G.

[SeiserL]

I tend to think of kokyu-nage as breathe, timing, and flow throws.

IMHO, all waza are kokyu-nage.

I have trained in several dojos that label waza differently. Check with the one you train in.

[MRoh]

In daito-ryu the term 'kokyu-nage' ist related to a special group of techniques. In Aikdo most people in fact mean all the techniques having no special names.
Often kokyu-nage techiques are executed in a way that uke comes running and is thrown by its own kinetic energy.
I remeber having read that this kind of throwing was only for demonstrations.

[oisin bourke]

In daito-ryu the term 'kokyu-nage' ist related to a special group of techniques. In Aikdo most people in fact mean all the techniques having no special names.
Often kokyu-nage techiques are executed in a way that uke comes running and is thrown by its own kinetic energy.
I remeber having read that this kind of throwing was only for demonstrations. Where did you hear this?

[Chris Li]

Where did you hear this?

My guess would be:

Moderator: Was the training method then different than it is now?

Kobayashi: It was exactly the same, the same, but joint techniques, techniques that twisted and strengthened the joints, were the most common. To my recollection, techniques like Kokyu-nage were only done after we started giving demonstrations.

Since it would be just unbearable to watch everyone do Ikkyo or Nikyo (in a demonstration) they created techniques that could be done with a single movement. So, if you did those techniques in front of Ueshiba O-Sensei you would be scolded. He'd say things like - it's just impossible to throw anybody that way.

Yasuo Kobayashi and Fumiko Nakayama - Living Aikido: Part 1 (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-11-18/yasuo-kobayashi-and-fumiko-nakayama-on-living-aikido-part-1)

Best,

Chris

[oisin bourke]

My guess would be:

Yasuo Kobayashi and Fumiko Nakayama - Living Aikido: Part 1 (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-11-18/yasuo-kobayashi-and-fumiko-nakayama-on-living-aikido-part-1)

Best,

Chris

Oh, I see. I read Markus's post/description as pertaining to Daito Ryu and it seemed strange. FWIW, I never heard techniques in DR being referred to as Kokyu nage. The term Kuki was used. However, different factions may have different terminology for all I know.

[Chris Li]

Oh, I see. I read Markus's post/description as pertaining to Daito Ryu and it seemed strange. FWIW, I never heard techniques in DR being referred to as Kokyu nage. The term Kuki was used. However, different factions may have different terminology for all I know.

Ahh - I thought that you were talking about the part at the end.

Best,

Chris

[oisin bourke]

Ahh - I thought that you were talking about the part at the end.

Best,

Chris

That too, but your post clarified it.

[Rob Watson]

Whatever it is for kyu grades the important part is being able to into position to execute so work on that from myriad attack forms (or at least those expected to appear on the next test).

[MRoh]

Yasuo Kobayashi and Fumiko Nakayama - Living Aikido: Part 1 (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-11-18/yasuo-kobayashi-and-fumiko-nakayama-on-living-aikido-part-1)


Yes, that's the source :).

Oh, I see. I read Markus's post/description as pertaining to Daito Ryu and it seemed strange. FWIW, I never heard techniques in DR being referred to as Kokyu nage. The term Kuki was used. However, different factions may have different terminology for all I know.

Sorry, I screwed it up with the term 'aiki-waza', which are the foundation of the takumakai soden group.

[Cromwell]

So far I've read from different sources that all techniques are Kokyu techniques because all Aikido techniques needs a breath. Well although that is true, Kokyu is not just breath. That's over simplified.

I've been thinking about this point for months and so I decided to research it and not just from one masters nor one resource. I checked out the different factors. Let me share with you my post. http://goodaikido.com/kokyu-nage/

To summarise my research:

Kokyu Nage has two factors that are common. The breath power and the Kokyu shape.
There are two directions of throws. Front and side (corner back).
The Kokyu arm is shaped like a sword.
The Palm is either out or up. Irimi is thumbs down and palms usually facing the ground.
There's flick motion in throw, because Uke can grab.
I believe that 'Sumi Otoshi' is a Kokyu waza.
I believe that 'Tench Nage' is a Kokyu waza.
Kokyu Nage is one of the three strategic techniques that can be used in Jiuwaza.

[rugwithlegs]

https://youtu.be/ifxmpGCJ7eI

Just a few thoughts. The clip above is of ryokatadori kokyunage - this one and others are not really dependent on the hand position. I am not sure of the relationship between Kokyu Ho and Kokyunage but the Kokyu motion for power was the Kokyu ho stuff and Kokyunage can be pure positioning and timing. Some versions of katadori Kokyunage don't involve the arms at all.

When I see a movement having different names, I try to get more specific myself. Calling gyaku gamae ate, Sokumen Iriminage, and Kokyunage all the same is not completely accurate I think. Shomenate and udekimenage are worth distinguishing from other techniques if nothing else for safety. One is a full body power strike to the face, the other risks breaking an elbow. Older styles have specific names for things that now fall into Kokyunage categories. Kokyunage is close to communicating nothing as a term.

My own teacher had a more specific understanding (I think, I never understood him completely). Things like Ikkyo to Yonkyo Omote have a core method of kuzushi in common, so one Kokyunage was that pure position, timing, and kuzushi. Shihonage, Kotegaeshi Omote - the tenshin lead as Kokyunage. But it has other names.

I have very little Judo, but I appreciate that they have names like guruma and otoshi which describe movements. I am used to hearing the two different things called "energy." Both get called Kokyunage in some aikido dojo.