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View Full Version : Where does "Morote Dori" come from?


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ChrisHein
05-11-2013, 11:16 PM
So I've been compiling Aikido techniques for awhile now. Today I was going through morote dori attacks, and it just hit me that there is no morote dori in Budo Renshuu. Then I looked at "Budo" and the Noma Dojo photos (the one's I have access to) and I didn't find any morote dori there either. I know Saito Sensei says that morote dori kokyu nage (ho) is a corner stone to Aikido training, but I haven't found any print versions of Ueshiba dealing with a morote dori attack.

Any ideas about this?

kidoman
05-12-2013, 10:21 PM
I recall Morote Dori being called katate dori ryo mochi or ryote mochi.

ChrisHein
05-13-2013, 12:39 AM
In Budo Renshuu, the techniques listed for "te" are:
Te, katate- wich are all one handed "katate" grabs
Kokyu ryote- which is a ryote dori- both hands grabbed
Mune to te- which is a chest and hand grab
Tekubi- which are all ushiro ryote or both hands grabbed from behind.

In the other works I sited, I also don't see a reference to "katate dori ryo mochi" or "ryote moch". It does however seem that all of the major devisions of Aikido have a "two on one" type grab, even if they don't call them "morote dori". I just haven't seen Ueshiba doing it, although I'd guess he did, because all of his major students do. I'm just wondering when and where it came from.

sorokod
05-13-2013, 05:29 AM
Not a "print" version but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LELJJkFIxk#t=00m20s

Rob Watson
05-13-2013, 11:27 AM
Not a "print" version but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LELJJkFIxk#t=00m20s

Pay very close attention to what goes on that segment. Interesting things to be seen there. It is not important what I see but what do you see? 0:18-0:23 a lot can happen in 5 seconds.

ChrisHein
05-13-2013, 12:33 PM
Not a "print" version but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LELJJkFIxk#t=00m20s

Hey, good looking! I've seen a few pictures, where he is demonstrating kokyu, and he he has his attackers holding with two hands, which is what this looks like here. I really wonder want Ueshiba's daily lessons looked like and at what point a "two on one" type grab became common place, and why that happened.

Does anyone know if a two on one type grab is part of the Shin'ei taido syllabus?

Ethan Weisgard
05-14-2013, 04:56 AM
Saito Sensei always made the point that uke's holding / grabbing techniques were all based on controlling nage; not letting nage be able to use the hand / hands to launch an atemi against the attacker. When holding kata dori uke should be able to block a punch from nage (from either hand). Morote dori (also called Ryote mochi) was shown as a technique to control nage - uke should be using the two-handed grip to control nage's elbow and thereby keeping nage "at bay." Sensei also sometimes explained that the original Morote Dori called for uke to start by striking ("calling out") nage's hand by way of extending tegatana towards nage's face, starting from the position of the leading hand placed down by the forward hip and leading straight up the centerline to nage's face. This is, by the way, the kihon form that is taught in the Iwama lineage for Shomen Uchi ( in this case it is nage that initiates the "from below to above / towards the face" tegatana / atemi). Sensei would use the Kuden "Aite no ki wo yobidasu" - to call out the opponent's ki.

But I digress :-)
Morote dori was taught very often in Iwama by Saito Sensei, as well as at many of his seminars, always with the focus being on using the hold to control nage - using the slight twist / turn of nage's arm to lock the elbow. We were taught to call out the Morote Dori grip by extending our forearm towards uke with the little finger towards uke (our thumb towards ourself), thereby setting up the proper control grip for uke.

In regard to O-Sensei's use of Morote dori - I would have to say that Saito Sensei would not put as much emphasis on this holding technique as he did unless O-Sensei also taught it extensively.

I hope this can clarify things to some extent.

In aiki,
Ethan

ChrisHein
05-14-2013, 11:03 AM
In regard to O-Sensei's use of Morote dori - I would have to say that Saito Sensei would not put as much emphasis on this holding technique as he did unless O-Sensei also taught it extensively.



My feelings are the same as yours. I believe Saito Sensei tried with great effort to show Aikido the way he learned it from Ueshiba in Iwama. From what has been recorded of Ueshiba's work before the Iwama years would suggest that earlier in his career, he didn't do much (if any) two to one hand holding attacks. I wonder why this is?

To me, being from the Iwama lineage, I think of Morote Dori as a very prominent attack. I was shocked to see that Ueshiba didn't emphasize it in his early work. Makes me curious.

Andrew S
05-14-2013, 02:20 PM
Might it be worthwhile seeing what the Daito Ryu books have to say on the subject?
I'm currently reading Tasuo Kimura's Discovering Aiki, and a fair number of the techniques shown (admittedly, usually with multiple attackers) use morote dori.

RLW
05-14-2013, 05:03 PM
This topic calls this video to mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

It predates Iwama by a short time, although he would've been 52 in this vido so I don't know if that's early enough.
If I had to argue with myself I might suggest that his constant motion during the set-ups and grabs does make dicerning the intended attacks a bit difficult, I see some two hand grabs that may have been ushiro attacks that Ueshiba turned into something else and such. Also alot of throws are started with his arm extended latterally, and that's certainly not kihon.

However, at 5:37, except that he moves back away from uke instead of dirictly adjacent, his throw is almost exactly how I have been taught to do one variation of morote-dori kokyunage in the Shingu lineage (Hikitsuchi > Mary Heiny > My teacher).

There are also attacks from two uke's in this video. As far as what was heavily emphisized in his earlier teaching: my lightly educated imput is that I have seen some evidence in recent years that implies his techniques as having come almost exclusively from Daito Ryu. But I don't think anyone has implied too much that he wasn't making stuff up or eccentricly demonstrating techniques whithout putting much emphasis on any details of them, this was a common reflection and sometimes complaint of his students, no?

ChrisHein
05-15-2013, 01:37 PM
However, at 5:37, except that he moves back away from uke instead of dirictly adjacent, his throw is almost exactly how I have been taught to do one variation of morote-dori kokyunage in the Shingu lineage (Hikitsuchi > Mary Heiny > My teacher).

I would agree! That is a classic example of morote dori kokyu nage!

It is hard when comparing Daito ryu and Aikido syllabus, because as time has gone on, much is shared between the two. With out a historic written account of the techniques it would be hard to say for certain that they didn't both start showing the appearance of morote dori at the same time. But it is a good idea, what is the oldest written account of Daito ryu? That might at least give us some ideas about a time.

Thanks for the great replies!

graham christian
05-15-2013, 04:00 PM
Does this fit?

http://youtu.be/_C6wo7J8qkc

That would mean it was in Aikibudo?

Peace.G.

Rupert Atkinson
05-15-2013, 10:34 PM
I previously had a similar question about irimi/tenkan. Apparently Ueshiba didn't teach it the way we commonly learn it today: 2 irimi then 2 tenkan. (Correct me if I'm wrong though). This was divised by Kishomaru, his son, so I heard. If you look at Yoshinkan it is not done that way either. Likewise the kata in the Tomiki style. Nor in the Kyushin Aikido style as found in the UK (Kenshiro Abe). Iwama do it though. All interesting stuff ... is it not? Makes you wonder why we do what we do without question.

Ethan Weisgard
05-16-2013, 01:58 AM
Most of the footage we have of O-Sensei is from demonstrations. Saito Sensei told us that O-Sensei taught quite differently in comparison to what he showed at demonstrations. There is some footage of O-Sensei actually teaching students ( I don't remember the DVD it is on, but it is one of the Aikido Journal clips). Here you see O-Sensei doing a series of suwari waza techniques, very systematically. By the way: you see him leading out with shomen uchi - calling the uke's tegatana forth to use the arm for a technique. There is one time when the uke strikes first, and O-Sensei slaps his hand away, and then starts the technique again where he himself leads in.

But I digress :-) Saito Sensei often said that O-Sensei taught methodically in Iwama. I think that what we see on the footage from demonstrations is what O-Sensei felt would represent Aikido best for this purpose. Saito Sensei said that O-Sensei would often take one attack and then show a series of techniques against this attack. Or take one technique and show it against many different attacks.

So to me it makes sense that O-Sensei would teach techniques from, for instance, Morote dori - a grip, by the way, that is a very strong control against nage - but would not necessarily use it in his demonstrations.

In aiki,
Ethan

graham christian
05-16-2013, 09:11 AM
http://youtu.be/1LELJJkFIxk

Lots and lots in this one, just after he falls over at 2.0 mins.

Peace.G.

graham christian
05-16-2013, 03:18 PM
http://youtu.be/pNF9uO1d5Kk

Funny how things happen. Someone just posted this on facebook. (you'll need to understand japanese though) The English given on facebook was about how O'Sensei taught morote dori and what he said about it.

Peace.G.

akiy
05-16-2013, 04:04 PM
http://youtu.be/pNF9uO1d5Kk

Funny how things happen. Someone just posted this on facebook. (you'll need to understand japanese though) The English given on facebook was about how O'Sensei taught morote dori and what he said about it.
The narrator in the above video is not attributing anything he is saying to Morihei Ueshiba nor is he explicitly referencing him during the clip.

-- Jun

graham christian
05-16-2013, 04:37 PM
The narrator in the above video is not attributing anything he is saying to Morihei Ueshiba nor is he explicitly referencing him during the clip.

-- Jun

http://sakuramairim.blogspot.com/2013/05/morotedori-kokyuho.html

o.k. Jun, I stand corrected on the assumption re: Japanese. The link above is where the added English appears.

Peace.G.

ChrisHein
05-16-2013, 10:30 PM
Considering that there are no morote dori attacks in Budo renshuu, Budo and nothing in Aikido Densho, I would guess that early on Ueshiba wasn't teaching morote dori attack defense.

I wonder where and when morote first began in the Aiki tradition. There are lot's of curious things I come across the more I look at prewar Aiki(budo/do). It is interesting!

Carsten Möllering
05-17-2013, 03:52 AM
Given the importance of morote dori kokyo ho in the teaching of Saito sensei, I find it intriguing, that Endo sensei says in one of his DVDs about the very basics of (his) aikidō that "how our predecessors did this thing called morote-dori-kokyuho, how they did it the basic way - we no longer know."
As far as I understand "predecessors" refers to Takeda Sokaku, Daito ryū etc.

Aikilove
05-17-2013, 08:26 AM
Most of the footage we have of O-Sensei is from demonstrations. Saito Sensei told us that O-Sensei taught quite differently in comparison to what he showed at demonstrations. There is some footage of O-Sensei actually teaching students ( I don't remember the DVD it is on, but it is one of the Aikido Journal clips). Here you see O-Sensei doing a series of suwari waza techniques, very systematically. By the way: you see him leading out with shomen uchi - calling the uke's tegatana forth to use the arm for a technique. There is one time when the uke strikes first, and O-Sensei slaps his hand away, and then starts the technique again where he himself leads in.
I always found these two snippets from from the Aikidojournal production: "Morihei Ueshiba and Aikido - Takemusu aiki" to be the main source of visual input to how O-sensei actually taught aikido techniques. Note, that in the second clip there are material cut out from the video where the student actually practice for a few brief moments the techniques the founder just showed.Then the founder shows another technique two times and off the students get to practice for a couple of seconds.

http://youtu.be/YtkG2yKqCbQ?t=7m42s
and
http://youtu.be/YtkG2yKqCbQ?t=23m53s

phitruong
05-17-2013, 08:48 AM
wonder if it has something to do with law enforcement restraint approach, i.e. two LEOs restraint an unruly samurai or some such. if it is, the wouldn't that make the practice to counter LEO?

George S. Ledyard
05-17-2013, 10:31 AM
Mototetori is just the setup for a classic jiu justu technique that locks the elbow and throws you to the ground. You can see this technique in old Hiroshige woodblocks. When done properly, it could be applied to nuetralize a sword draw. It comes from Jiu Jutsu 101. It certainly is not an attack by itself, it is a training tool. But there's no way O-Sensei wasn't doing morotetori... every jiu jutsu school has this attack, as does Daito Ryu.

ChrisHein
05-17-2013, 09:11 PM
I agree that it would seem that Morote dori is an important part of Aikido- But when looking at the references we have to early Aikido/Aikibudo, the attack isn't there.

Rupert Atkinson
05-23-2013, 11:08 PM
well, maybe you should look in Daito-ryu as that is what Ueshiba taught for a considerable time.

ChrisHein
05-24-2013, 12:04 AM
well, maybe you should look in Daito-ryu as that is what Ueshiba taught for a considerable time.

I would love to. However looking at modern Daito-ryu is like looking at modern Aikido. We would have to look at early Daito ryu to see if it was part of the early syllabus. What is the earliest written account of Daito Ryu technique? From what I've read of accounts of those who worked on Budo Renshuu, the techniques found in that book are very similar to the Hiden Mokuroku scroll Ueshiba had. If that scroll has been put into print, I would LOVE to see it.

Rupert Atkinson
05-24-2013, 01:57 AM
Probably not that related but I did Takeda-ryu SoBudo (Nakamura-ha) in Japan way back when and they had morote-dori. It's an old school of Jujutsu but they have modernised it.

ChrisHein
05-24-2013, 10:45 AM
I think, considering the material Aikido addresses, that morote dori is an essential part of our study.

However, it seems that early on it wasn't practiced as part of regular Aikido/Aiki Budo training. I was just wondering when that came about, and why. If it was a part of regular Daito ryu training, why did Ueshiba leave it out of early Kobukan training? If it wasn't a part of Daito ryu training, when did it become a part of Aikido training? Why did Ueshiba leave the attack out of "Budo"?

These are the questions I have. Not really about the validity of morote dori as an attack. I think morote dori- in many different forms, is essential to Aikido training.

Devon Smith
05-24-2013, 11:45 AM
wonder if it has something to do with law enforcement restraint approach, i.e. two LEOs restraint an unruly samurai or some such. if it is, the wouldn't that make the practice to counter LEO?

Phi and others,

For what it's worth, my understanding of the reasoning behind Hakkoryu's teaching of defense against morote (two hands on one) is precisely the above, though not specifically against law enforcement folks. Morote may have been an immediate attempt by one person to prevent one from reaching for a tanto or wakizashi, or may be an arresting technique used by two people. Hand-me-down techniques from pre-Meiji times?

http://home.comcast.net/~shinzan/morote.jpg

Another reason I feel the morote attack would only happen in last-ditch scenarios such as these is because we're taught to strike whenever a hand is free; meaning it would generally be unwise to seize a person's arm with both hands unless they had already (or were about to) draw a weapon.

Devon

P.S. Phi, you may be more correct than you know...in Hakkoryu's Shihan-gi we're taught to prevent efficient tying of our hands so as to make easier an escape later on. ;)

graham christian
05-24-2013, 06:25 PM
Seems obvious to me that it would be common to do so throughout the ages, too obvious. Firstly when someone has a sword or weapon, especially a large weapon many would use two hand grab of arm.

Secondly and even more obvious is don't get so caught up in "it has to be written" over common sense. What do you think Ikkyo is other than a morote dori in essence.

Peace.G.

Devon Smith
05-24-2013, 10:32 PM
Just a thought on my part, and I only have a few years of Aikido exposure, so keep that in mind when reading my stuff, cousins.

Perhaps one reason the morote attack isn't and wasn't taught much is that in executing a technique in response, it's largely redundant; at least in our curriculum, it is quite often.

In Hakkoryu basics we're taught to ignore the second hand and respond as if a single hand is available. Of course, having access to both of the aggressor's hands more than doubles the number of responses available, plus atemi with the free hand is a plus, be it an "eye closer" (目潰) or a hit on meridians before the execution of the response.

Maybe the redundancy is also reason this particular attack isn't a focus in Aikido, just a thought!

Devon

Devon Smith
05-25-2013, 12:20 AM
Pay very close attention to what goes on that segment. Interesting things to be seen there. It is not important what I see but what do you see? 0:18-0:23 a lot can happen in 5 seconds.

As a Hakkoryu student, I enjoyed 2:32 to 2:36 very much!

Devon

jamesf
03-20-2017, 03:49 PM
I was pondering the original question, myself, when I ran across this (old) thread. It inspired me to do a bit of my own research before responding, but here are my thoughts on it.

At first glance, morotedori may not seem like a very practical attack to train against, I think that changes if you consider the multiple-attacker scenario. However, if you never learn how to deal with it versus a single uke, you will never be able to make it work against two or more ukes.

I also noticed that morotedori is missing in the early Aikido literature (Budō Renshuu, 1933; Budō, 1938). While we can only speculate on the reasons for the omission, we can say, with certainty, that it was present during training of that same era: if you carefully watch the full cut of the 1935 Asahi film, you should be able to count morotedori being used at least 12 times by Ō-Sensei's ukes. (Sometimes it's tough to make out, due to camera angle or simply the fact that it's almost all ki no nagare, but 12 is my count, feel free to debate it.)

Below are the approximate cut times that I could see morotedori being used in the film; add about 0:01:10 if you are watching the version with Stanley Pranin's introduction.

two ukes:
0:12:45
0:12:50
0:12:53

one uke:
0:12:58
0:13:02
0:13:07
0:13:49
0:13:58
0:14:04

5 ukes:
0:14:22 static start
0:14:30 randori
0:14:38 randori

Aikilove
03-20-2017, 05:19 PM
Wow... old thread indeed.
As has already been mentioned earlier, if we are to believe Saito M. the founder taught almost all attack starting from a response to shomen (push down arm and you have most one handed grabbing attacks from front, grabbing attacks from ushiro, two handed grabs on same arm - morote! - and straight shomen uchi).
I have found over the years, however, that during more random settings, such as multi-uke jiyuwaza and randori, that if I just bring out my arm in front of uke's nose in just the right time - when they have just committed to something - it messes with their reflexes and usually leads to them grabbing it with both hands morotedori style.
On the other hand I also think that quite a lot of what today goes as morotedori has evolved into that form from more of a katadori menuchi type attack, that when the founder's uke tried to hold on to stuff during the ride it became morotedori.
Morotedori basics were probably mostly kokyuho, kokyu- and related koshinage, and some obvious osae such as nikyo. The rest of the nagewaza like shihonage and so on, were probably added because it was functional as well.

rugwithlegs
03-20-2017, 09:28 PM
The attack when training hiriki no yosei ichi with a partner is morote mochi. I had wondered if the grab was a way to train shomenate chin strike techniques with feedback on power and structure but Ike's neck not in jeopardy.

Good catch that morote Dori is not there on Budo renshu. FWIW, one teacher I met taught that ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo. kotegaeshi, shihonage are actually variations on morote dori. Variations on grips and twists, but they are all two hands holding one hand. Reversals of these techniques are morote Dori techniques.