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Roger Evans
07-27-2002, 03:06 AM
I have been searching for books, publications etc., on Kaishi waza (counter) techniques in Aikido.
Is there anyone out there with any knowledge of said techniques, publications etc.

Information would be greatly appreciated

Roger Evans

tedehara
07-27-2002, 05:13 AM
I have been taught that the ki society techniques will work if you do the technique correctly. That is a big IF.

:eek:

What I've discovered is that you can counter a technique as soon as the nage loses the lead. Usually the best counter is doing the same technique. Probably because of the similar body positions between nage and uke.

A good example of this is at the end of Ikkyo Irimi. When the nage pushes you down by your arm, instead of trying to resist, take up the lead. Lead the nage down a little more than they intend. What you're trying to do is "bounce" them. The rhythm is down-up-down.

On down 1, they go a little too far down, so they will naturally come up.

On up 1, you stand up as they "bounce" up. Do an Ikkyo irimi on them.

On down 2, you bring them down in an Ikkyo. Of course you recognize the "evils" of pushing, so you gently lead your former nage, down.

These types of counters are actually very advanced. It means you know possible areas of mistakes in a technique. It also helps you learn what is the right way to do things.

It's interesting to realize that sometimes, the only difference between nage and uke is who is leading.

:freaky:

DaveO
07-27-2002, 06:54 AM
LOL - Shihonage is the big one for me - I attempt one as nage, I wind up getting shihonage'd into the ground. Oops! Me bad. :D

Dave

SeiserL
07-27-2002, 10:50 AM
Actually, we (Tenshinkai Aikido) just finished an article for Black Belt Magazine on combinations and counters. We had not seen much published about it either.

Until again,

Lynn

tedehara
07-27-2002, 11:09 AM
Actually, we (Tenshinkai Aikido) just finished an article for Black Belt Magazine on combinations and counters. We had not seen much published about it either.

Until again,

Lynn
I didn't have a chance to say before, "Congratulations!" on that article. Well worth the read.

:)

jimvance
07-27-2002, 11:18 AM
I have been searching for books, publications etc., on Kaishi waza (counter) techniques in Aikido.

Is there anyone out there with any knowledge of said techniques, publications etc.I don't think there has been much written about kaeshi waza because that kind of practice encourages "competition". I have been taught that really understanding any kata entails knowing not only the strengths, but also the weaknesses; and a good way to identify possible kaeshi waza is through ukemi. In other words, a catalog showing "technique A is defeated by technique B" doesn't serve any more purpose than just training the kata with which you are familiar. If you really want to learn good kaeshi waza, raise the standards by which you perform as both uke and tori.

Jim Vance

Don_Modesto
07-27-2002, 04:44 PM
I have been searching for books, publications etc., on Kaishi waza (counter) techniques in Aikido.

Is there anyone out there with any knowledge of said techniques, publications etc.
Now out of print, see Saito, M.'s Traditional Aikido. It might be available through interlibrary loan.Don't recall which volume, though.

Also, Saotome has a new DVD called OYO HENKA. From http://www.aiki.com/:

Mitsugi Saotome

Oyo Henka

Aikido's Constructive Use of Resistance

Rather than pitting strength against strength, Aikidoists train to blend with their attackers energy so that they can use it to pin or throw. But what happens when attackers feel technique as it develops and resist - by pulling back, pushing, or bracing?

Here Saotome Sensei - a direct student of Aikido's founder - answers this question, describing ways to use an opponent's resisting energy. In offering his answer, Saotome Sensei urges us to go beyond practice of basic technical form to a higher level, which he calls Oyo Henka - a level at which we are so calm, relaxed, self-assured, and noncompetitive that we adapt to our partners' "feedback" and spontaneously bring conflict to a harmonious resolution.

In addition to almost an hour of lectures and demonstrations, this video contains rare historical footage.

video order code: voh

dvd order code: dvdoh

approximately 1 hour, $40.00

DavidM
07-27-2002, 07:20 PM
Heh, I'm with Dave...I tried a Shiho Nage on an Uke before, and I ended up on the ground from a COUNTER Shiho Nage....

George S. Ledyard
07-28-2002, 03:27 AM
We have a block which focusues on Kaeshiwaza. Here's the intro from the manual we have developed.

Kaeshiwaza - Reversals

Introduction:

At the advanced level kaeshiwaza represents the heart of Aikido practice. In order to perform effective kaeshiwaza ukemi must be close to perfect. Every technique has one or more “cross-over” points at which the technique may be taken over by the uke. In order to be able to do this in the very short window of opportunity available during full speed execution of technique the uke must be absolutely “in sync” with the nage. If the uke is performing ukemi at the passive level only, merely matching whatever movements the nage makes, the uke will be unable to “take” the technique. The uke needs to be active, attempting to feel the movement of a technique and move just ahead of it, not unlike a surfer riding on a wave. If he gets caught by the wave he loses control and gets tossed. But if he can ride just in front of the force he can have a significantly freedom of movement within the arch of the wave. Ukemi is very similar. The uke rides just in front of the energy of the technique and in the instant that the slightest opening occurs in the connection with the nage, uke can take control of that energy and reverse the roles of uke and nage.

General Principles of Kaeshiwaza:

There are four basic methods to reverse a technique:

1) Over Extend the Spiral - This can take two forms, either add energy to the arch of the spiral being run by the nage on any blending or throwing movement to catch the nage in his own spiral or, on a locking technique rotate in the spiral being applied to slip the lock before it catches uke’s center.

2) Counter Spiral the Energy - This runs counter energy directly through the same spiral path which the nage is using to accomplish the technique. In some cases this will cause the technique to run in the opposite direction or on others the blockage of the flow in the technique will cause a rebound of energy back into the nage causing an opening which the uke may use to do his own technique.

3) Go With the Technique and Add Additional Spiral - As a last resort, when the success of technique is inevitable, the uke may allow himself to be caught by the technique but will add an additional spiral which may catch the nage by surprise if he has left an opening. “Sacrifice throws” are an example of the use of this principle .

4) Evade and Reengage - Use the attack to draw out nage’s reaction, disengage from the attempted technique and reengage in whatever opening nage created in his initial reaction.

Note: A sub-principle which actually comes into play to make the application of the above principles possible is that of moving inside the arc of nage’s projection. Application of this sub-principle is what allows sacrifice throws and slipping of locking techniques.

General Principles of Kaeshiwaza Demonstrated in Ikkyo:

1) Over extend the Spiral - Ikkyo into Kokyunage

As nage begins to execute the ikkyo, uke does tenkan and extends out his striking arm, cuts the arm out and down under nage’s center for kokyunage.

2) Counter the Spiral - Ikkyo into Iriminage

Just as nage enters and connects with wrist and elbow, uke extends energy out striking arm, rolls palm of striking hand towards the nage thereby deflecting the attempted ikkyo and giving the uke an opening to nage’s side; executes iriminage

3) Go with the Spiral and Add a Spiral - Ikkyo into Leg Scissors Takedown

Nage is able to get kuzushi and execute an ikkyo, as uke goes down he slides his legs into nage (close leg goes high up on the thighs and the far leg cuts in low on the calves, scissor the legs to make nage fall backwards)

4) Evade and Reengage - Ikkyo into Jujinage

Uke strikes w/ shomenuchi, just as nage moves for ikkyo, uke moves off the line, pulls strike back and down, uses opposite hand to trap nage’s elbow hand, uses original striking hand to deliver atemi to face, when nage blocks the atemi, executes jujinage by crossing the arms and locking the close elbow

Sam
07-28-2002, 01:08 PM
The shodokan aikido system has a kata of 10 kaishi waza. This kata forms part of the 1st kyu syllabus and is a difficult kata to practise in an accomplished fashion as a high degree of timing is required.

Since you asked for information on the technique here is a list of each technique and counter:

(atemi waza)

shomen ate-waki gatame

aigamae ate-oshi taoshi

gyakugamae ate-gedan ate

gedan ate-aigamae ate

ushiro ate-tenkai kote hineri

(hiji waza)

oshi taoshi-oshi taoshi

hiki taoshi-tenkai kote hineri

(tkubi waza)

kote gaeshi-kote gaeshi

tenkai kote hineri-waki gatame

tenkai kote gaeshi-tenkai kote gaeshi(shihonage).

There are also several counters to the 4 balance breaking techniques and also a range of counters developed from randori practise but is seems a bit much to list them as well........

j0nharris
07-28-2002, 04:54 PM
Actually, we (Tenshinkai Aikido) just finished an article for Black Belt Magazine on combinations and counters. We had not seen much published about it either.

Until again,

Lynn
Lynn,

Do you know when the publication date of that issue of Black Betl will be?

I'd be interested in seeing it.

We do some kaeshiwaza in class, generally what we've picked up at seminars. Saito Sensei's extra classes when he was here, were always "educational" (read 'painful') :D

-jon

PeterR
07-28-2002, 08:09 PM
Hi Sam;

I just got back from the Yudansha seminar in Isehara (near Yokohama) with Nariyama and Shishida. The first day concentrated almost solely on kaishi waza. We did those ten for a bit and then so so many others.

The heat and humidity was incrediable - I nearly died. The second day was not so hot but the after effects of beer made up for that.

Jim - I'm actually disturbed by the statement that I don't think there has been much written about kaeshi waza because that kind of practice encourages "competition".. Not sure if that's an oberservation as to why or your own view. Kaeshi waza is very difficult to train and requires a high level of Aikido to begin with. It moves away from the stylized attacks we all know and loath but I don't see the difference between a counter to ikkyo as opposed to a counter to shomen uchi.
The shodokan aikido system has a kata of 10 kaishi waza. This kata forms part of the 1st kyu syllabus and is a difficult kata to practise in an accomplished fashion as a high degree of timing is required.

jimvance
07-28-2002, 09:23 PM
Jim - I'm actually disturbed by the statement that I don't think there has been much written about kaeshi waza because that kind of practice encourages "competition".. Not sure if that's an oberservation as to why or your own view. In my own defense, it IS my view that kaeshi waza encourages competition, of which I do my fair share (randori). Kaeshi waza is very difficult to train and requires a high level of Aikido to begin with. It moves away from the stylized attacks we all know and loath but I don't see the difference between a counter to ikkyo as opposed to a counter to shomen uchi.I don't loath the attacks used in Jiyushinkai, and while it may not have sounded quite like what was said above, the following was written in the same spirit:In other words, a catalog showing "technique A is defeated by technique B" doesn't serve any more purpose than just training the kata with which you are familiar. If you really want to learn good kaeshi waza, raise the standards by which you perform as both uke and tori.Shodokan's kaeshi waza kata isn't anything more than linking elements of the Junana Hon Kata (Randori no Kata). We train this way quite a lot, but we still consider it part of the Junana Hon kata, not something separate.

Jim Vance

aries admin
07-28-2002, 10:10 PM
In our DOJO countering techniques are taught and need to be practiced. Its a requirement for a SHODAN test.

Conrad Gus
07-28-2002, 11:41 PM
That Saito Sensei book is volume 4 of the original Traditional Aikido series. My Sensei bought it back in the day and now lets club members borrow it from the dojo library, so I'm lucky enough to be reading it right now. The kaeshiwaza section is short but excellent.

PeterR
07-29-2002, 02:23 AM
In my own defense, it IS my view that kaeshi waza encourages competition, of which I do my fair share (randori).
I considser kaeshi waza an important part of advanced Aikido training. I don't want to put words in your mouth (its usually the wrong words) but are you suggesting it shouldn't be included because it might foster competition?
I don't loath the attacks used in Jiyushinkai
I was being playful but that's the topic for another thread. Stylized attacks (which do have their place) not my playfulness (also has its place).
Shodokan's kaeshi waza kata isn't anything more than linking elements of the Junana Hon Kata (Randori no Kata). We train this way quite a lot, but we still consider it part of the Junana Hon kata, not something separate.
Well yes and no - we actually refer to the set that Sam referred to as ura waza and yes they are from the Junanahon. They are a kata no doubt but when they, or any other reversal is used in randori, they become kaeshi waza. In randori you are no longer doing kata.

Sam
07-29-2002, 05:41 AM
Hi Peter,

I have to say I'm super envious you are in Japan. How I'd love to go back.....(I'm still paying for the last trip!)

Just got 'Tradition and the competitive edge' BTW. Its really something - especially with the daito ryu section. Now I feel ready for 'questions of dan grading'!!!

jimvance
07-29-2002, 09:42 PM
I considser kaeshi waza an important part of advanced Aikido training. I don't want to put words in your mouth (its usually the wrong words) but are you suggesting it shouldn't be included because it might foster competition?I never said it shouldn't be included, I actually BELIEVE in competition (don't tell though, okay?). What I did say was that the Aikido world in majority considers the word "competition" a word similar to the four-letter variety, and anything that encourages it is strictly taboo. For the record, I have been taught not to think like the majority.I was being playful but that's the topic for another thread. Stylized attacks (which do have their place) not my playfulness (also has its place).I like to be playfully serious, if not at times seriously playful. I don't think any attack should be "stylized", and am kind of curious as to what you would consider stylized.Well yes and no - we actually refer to the set that Sam referred to as ura waza and yes they are from the Junanahon. They are a kata no doubt but when they, or any other reversal is used in randori, they become kaeshi waza. In randori you are no longer doing kata.Don't take this wrong, but I could pick my nose different ways and make a "kata". If Shodokan Aikido calls these reversals the urawaza, I am not going to sweat it. I still look at them as innate to the Junana Hon. Some say tomay-to, some say tomah-to.

My question is this: if in randori, when you do waki-gatame to someone who does not get you with shomen-ate, are you doing it because you trained that way (kata), or does that response really fit to the suki in their waza? Remember, your motto is "mushin mugamae". :D

Playfully serious,

Jim Vance

PeterR
07-29-2002, 10:44 PM
I never said it shouldn't be included, I actually BELIEVE in competition (don't tell though, okay?). What I did say was that the Aikido world in majority considers the word "competition" a word similar to the four-letter variety, and anything that encourages it is strictly taboo. For the record, I have been taught not to think like the majority.
Again I wasn't sure whether you were referring to why more wasn't written about it or your personal view why it should not be included. Thanks for clearing it up.
I don't think any attack should be "stylized", and am kind of curious as to what you would consider stylized.
I've travelled around a bit - seen some pretty weak attacks. Even among a certain class of beginners at Honbu (ie. timid) and even more advanced students (not everyone gets it). A good attack/strike must have potential to do damage if it connects. Even in the basic drills (where dogma has it your Aikido improves the most) this must be the case. Whether tori or uke are the reason it doesn't (ie. uke controls the strike) does not matter. Both shomen-uchi and yokomen-uchi are styllized attacks - overused in many Aikido dojos in my opinion. Because they are styllized attacks they are prone to abuse - ie. uke gets lazy.
Don't take this wrong, but I could pick my nose different ways and make a "kata". If Shodokan Aikido calls these reversals the urawaza, I am not going to sweat it. I still look at them as innate to the Junana Hon. Some say tomay-to, some say tomah-to.
Yuck - well just keep that kata to your self. I thought it was clear that the urawaza are from the Junanahon and are kata. The point I was trying to make is that in randori they are no longer referred to as kata (urawaza) but become kaeshiwaza. Dogma is kata improves randori and randori improves kata but they really are separate. Many kaeshiwaza are not part of the Junanahon.
My question is this: if in randori, when you do waki-gatame to someone who does not get you with shomen-ate, are you doing it because you trained that way (kata), or does that response really fit to the suki in their waza? Remember, your motto is "mushin mugamae". :D
Well at my level probably more of the former than the latter - but I'm working on it.

sharonbader
11-15-2004, 04:59 PM
[QUOTE=Sam Benson]

Since you asked for information on the technique here is a list of each technique and counter:

(atemi waza)

shomen ate-waki gatame

aigamae ate-oshi taoshi

gyakugamae ate-gedan ate

gedan ate-aigamae ate

ushiro ate-tenkai kote hineri

(hiji waza)

oshi taoshi-oshi taoshi

hiki taoshi-tenkai kote hineri

(tkubi waza)

kote gaeshi-kote gaeshi

tenkai kote hineri-waki gatame

tenkai kote gaeshi-tenkai kote gaeshi(shihonage).
QUOTE]

is it possible to translate these to English? I don't understand all of the romanji.

Thanks!

George S. Ledyard
11-15-2004, 06:13 PM
This a piece of the Kaeshiwaza manual we use as an instructional block at my dojo. Eventually we will take this and add video clips to illustrate each of these principles.

Kaeshiwaza - Reversals
Introduction:
At the advanced level kaeshiwaza represents the heart of Aikido practice. In order to perform effective kaeshiwaza ukemi must be close to perfect. Every technique has one or more "cross-over" points at which the technique may be taken over by the uke. In order to be able to do this in the very short window of opportunity available during full speed execution of technique the uke must be absolutely "in sync" with the nage. If the uke is performing ukemi at the passive level only, merely matching whatever movements the nage makes, the uke will be unable to "take" the technique. The uke needs to be active, attempting to feel the movement of a technique and move just ahead of it, not unlike a surfer riding on a wave. If he gets caught by the wave he loses control and gets tossed. But if he can ride just in front of the force he can have a significantly freedom of movement within the arch of the wave. Ukemi is very similar. The uke rides just in front of the energy of the technique and in the instant that the slightest opening occurs in the connection with the nage, uke can take control of that energy and reverse the roles of uke and nage.

General Principles of Kaeshiwaza:
There are four basic methods to reverse a technique:

1) Over Extend the Spiral
This can take two forms, either add energy to the arch of the spiral being run by the nage on any blending or throwing movement to catch the nage in his own spiral or, on a locking technique rotate in the spiral being applied to slip the lock before it catches uke's center.

2) Counter Spiral the Energy
This runs counter energy directly through the same spiral path which the nage is using to accomplish the technique. In some cases this will cause the technique to run in the opposite direction or on others the blockage of the flow in the technique will cause a rebound of energy back into the nage causing an opening which the uke may use to do his own technique.

3) Go With the Technique and Add Additional Spiral
As a last resort, when the success of technique is inevitable, the uke may allow himself to be caught by the technique but will add an additional spiral which may catch the nage by surprise if he has left an opening. "Sacrifice throws" are an example of the use of this principle .

4) Evade and Reengage
Use the attack to draw out nage's reaction, disengage from the attempted technique and reengage in whatever opening nage created in his initial reaction.

Note: A sub- principle which actually comes into play to make the application of the above principles possible is that of moving inside the arc of nage's projection. Application of this sub-principle is what allows sacrifice throws and slipping of locking techniques.

General Principles of Kaeshiwaza Demonstrated in Ikkyo:

1) Over extend the Spiral - Ikkyo into Kokyunage
As nage begins to execute the ikkyo, uke does tenkan and extends out his striking arm, cuts the arm out and down under nage's center for kokyunage.

2) Counter the Spiral - Ikkyo into Iriminage
Just as nage enters and connects with wrist and elbow, uke extends energy out striking arm, rolls palm of striking hand towards the nage thereby deflecting the attempted ikkyo and giving the uke an opening to nage's side; executes iriminage

3) Go with the Spiral and Add a Spiral - Ikkyo into Leg Scissors Takedown
Nage is able to get kuzushi and execute an ikkyo, as uke goes down he slides his legs into nage (close leg goes high up on the thighs and the far leg cuts in low on the calves, scissor the legs to make nage fall backwards)

4) Evade and Reengage - Ikkyo into Jujinage
Uke strikes w/ shomenuchi, just as nage moves for ikkyo, uke pulls strike back and down, uses opposite hand to trap nage's elbow hand, uses original striking hand to deliver atemi to face, when nage blocks the atemi, executes jujinage by crossing the arms and locking the close elbow.

sharonbader
11-15-2004, 08:15 PM
This a piece of the Kaeshiwaza manual we use as an instructional block at my dojo. Eventually we will take this and add video clips to illustrate each of these principles.



I read that, I thought is was very good and I could visualize it.

I cannot at this time visualize most of these since I do not understand the romanji:


(atemi waza)

shomen ate-waki gatame

aigamae ate-oshi taoshi

gyakugamae ate-gedan ate

gedan ate-aigamae ate

ushiro ate-tenkai kote hineri

(hiji waza)

oshi taoshi-oshi taoshi

hiki taoshi-tenkai kote hineri

(tkubi waza)

kote gaeshi-kote gaeshi

tenkai kote hineri-waki gatame

tenkai kote gaeshi-tenkai kote gaeshi(shihonage).

I'll ask someone.

Thanks!

L. Camejo
11-15-2004, 10:32 PM
Hi Sharon,

Here's the translations and some links to visual aids of the techs as well.

(atemi waza) - striking techniques (http://www.ttac.0catch.com/atemi.htm)

shomen ate (forward strike) - waki gatame (side pin) (http://www.ttac.0catch.com/hiji.htm)

aigamae ate (matching stances strike aka irimi nage) - oshi taoshi (Pushing Topple aka Ikkyo/Ikkajo (http://www.ttac.0catch.com/hiji.htm))

gyakugamae ate (Opposing Stances Strike aka Sokumen) - gedan ate (Low Strike)

gedan ate-aigamae ate (translation above)

ushiro ate (Behind Strike) - tenkai kote hineri (Rotating Wrist Twist aka Sankyo/Sankajo) (http://www.ttac.0catch.com/tekubi.htm)

(hiji waza) - elbow techniques (http://www.ttac.0catch.com/hiji.htm)

oshi taoshi-oshi taoshi (translation above)

hiki taoshi (Pulling Topple) - tenkai kote hineri (translation above)

(tekubi waza) - Wrist Techniques (http://www.ttac.0catch.com/tekubi.htm)

kote gaeshi-kote gaeshi (Wrist Fold)

tenkai kote hineri-waki gatame (translation above)

tenkai kote gaeshi -tenkai kote gaeshi (Rotating Wrist Fold aka shihonage).

Hope these help. The links are to videos of the techniques indicated by the category in which they fall.

Of course there are other ways to counter the techniques indicated, what was given here is an actual set "counter technique kata" that is practiced in Shodokan and is a test requirement for 1st Kyu and the earlier Dan grades I believe.

Regards.
LC:ai::ki:

sharonbader
11-16-2004, 11:28 AM
Hi Sharon,

Here's the translations and some links to visual aids of the techs as well.



Thanks!

The videos are great! Must have been a lot of work!

Sharon.

Keith_k
11-16-2004, 05:27 PM
Hapkido teaches counters to techniques at 1st Dan, which should work with against many Aikido techniques. The reason for teaching counter techniques has nothing to do with competition; it is meant to deal with students, who for whatever reason, become beligerent.

deepsoup
11-17-2004, 07:58 AM
The reason for teaching counter techniques has nothing to do with competition; it is meant to deal with students, who for whatever reason, become beligerent.
If you need 'secret' techniques to deal with your own students, something is seriously wrong with your dojo culture imo.

grondahl
11-17-2004, 08:14 AM
If you need 'secret' techniques to deal with your own students, something is seriously wrong with your dojo culture imo.

So the koryu styles that only teaches Ura-techniques to it´s devoted students all have a bad dojo culture?

deepsoup
11-17-2004, 10:48 AM
So the koryu styles that only teaches Ura-techniques to it´s devoted students all have a bad dojo culture?
Depends why they do it. If those techniques are kept from the junior students so they can be used by the senior students to smack them down in case they get uppity, then yes, that sucks.

I'm sure there are valid reasons not to teach certain techniques until a certain level. But that aint one of them.

A teacher who feels the need to keep a secret weapon this way is acting like he's afraid of his own students, does that seem healthy to you?

Keith_k
11-17-2004, 06:07 PM
Perhaps I was too vague.
Suppose you have good student and bad student. While practicing technique, bad student constantly cranks on good student a little too much, even after verbal warnings. So the instructor says to bad student "I will be your partner now" and uses counter technique.

Now you may say that bad student should simply be thrown out of the dojo and told never to return. In some cases this might be the best course of action, but in others not. Maybe bad student is really a good student in most cases, or has the potential to be a good student, but needs a little tough love. Counter technique gives the instructor another OPTION for dealing with these kinds of students, as well as providing a deeper understanding of the technique itself.

I think it is also important to note that I have never actually seen, or even heard of cases, where counter technique was actually used. I don't think that it fosters any kind of bad dojo enviroment. I also don't seen why it is so unreasonable that advanced students know techniques that begining students do not (Dan level Hapkido students are also taught counters to judo techniques that lower-level students are not taught). It may also be that the origional intent of counter technique was as described above, but has lost this purpose over time (we still train with swords, but who actually uses a sword for combat anymore?).

L. Camejo
11-17-2004, 06:49 PM
Of course most Sensei who are in control of their class may have a few options of dealing with a difficult student other than resorting to kaeshiwaza. There are many ways to deal with such a situation as indicated above. To me kaeshiwaza is a last resort unless the training is during randori etc. where counters are part of the practice and easily shows up during the flow.

As far as secret techniques, I don't really think such things exist, only a deep mastery of basic principles. Kaeshiwaza however are not secret techniques imo.

LC:ai::ki:

Rupert Atkinson
11-17-2004, 07:04 PM
George S. Ledyard - thanks for the information. I am also trying to rationalise various parts of Aikido training by dividing forms and methods of practice into more easy-to-understand lumps of information. Otherwise, how is one to make sense of the mess?

Rupert Atkinson
11-17-2004, 08:35 PM
PS I am not sure where your #3 fits into my scheme of things. It seems more like a Jujutsu technical counter. Technical in that, he does ikkyo on me, gets so far, then I manipulate it to my advantage and do a technique (scissors) on him. Seems more technical than going with aiki-flow. Or that might just be my experience/visualisation of non-aiki UK jujutsu doing the same thing. Nothing wrong with adding flow, of course. Still, I am not sure I understand the underlying principle/theme of your #3 that makes it different (from the others).

Personally, I divide it thus:

First, for kaeshi-waza I define irimi as sending uke's energy back from whence it came and tenkan as allowing it to continue (rather than omote / ura body positions).

Second, I divide movement into large and small circles.
Thus, I can reverse technique (ikkyo) in an irimi fashion in a large circle by adding a little redirecting energy (creating ikkyo) or a small circle (which is almost like performing a direct hit on uke, as you do, a kind of kokyu-nage perhaps).
Or, I can reverse a technique in a tenkan (ikkyo) fashion (remember, tenkan here means aiding uke's attack) by adding a little energy in a large circle and creating say, kokyu-nage (as you do), or by using a small circle and switching technique to say, as you do, juji-nage.

So, my method of taxonomy is:

irimi / tenkan + small / large circle

Which, I hope, is pretty easy to understand. :)

wildaikido
11-25-2004, 03:15 AM
Hello all,

It has been such a long time.

For those who are not familiar with the Tomiki techniques I would suggest http://www.gedanate.com/randori-no-kata-aikido-techniques.html
(Jun please feel free to remove this link in need be)

I have added a quick ROUGH!!!!!!! list for comparison. Please don't attack my list is only a ROUGH!!!!!! list for comparison, and is by no means great.

1. Shomen-ate.............Tenchi Nage
2. Ai-gamae-ate...........Irimi Nage Henka
3. Gyaku-gamae-ate....Sokumen Irimi Nage
4. Gedan-ate...............Aiki OToshi, Do Gaeshi
5. Ushiro-ate...............Ushiro Otoshi
6. Oshi-taoshi.............Ikkyo
7. Ude-gaeshi.............same
8. Hiki-taoshi..............Ikkyo Tenkan Henka
9. Ude-garame............Shita Ude Garami. From Judo
10. Waki-gatame........Hiji Shime
11. Kote-hineri............Sankyo Henka
12. Kote-gaeshi..........same
13. Tenkai-kote-hineri..Sankyo
14. Shiho-nage...........same
15. Mae-otoshi...........Hiji Ate Nage
16. Sumi-otoshi..........same
17. Hiki-otoshi............same

Thanks,

Graham

L. Camejo
11-25-2004, 07:36 AM
Hi Graham,

Not attacking your list - it's a great effort at translation of the Shodokan nomenclature.

Justone question though - how do you equate Shomen Ate with Tenchi Nage? Tenchi nage is a form of Aigamae ate or Iriminage without the head grab and turn, just the entry. It is applied from the side of Uke's body when Shomenate goes through the weak line of the Uke from a more central position.

Just thought I'd ask.

LC:ai::ki:

deepsoup
11-25-2004, 12:15 PM
Just one question though - how do you equate Shomen Ate with Tenchi Nage?
I didn't get that either, I'd say tenchi nage would very definitely be aigamaeate.

The thing is though, there's not a one to one correspondance between the different naming systems, so it isn't possible to write a list like this and have it accurate.

For example, Graham listed kote hineri as 'sankyo henka'. I've never heard of sankyo henka so I don't know about that, but I do know that some kote hineri would be considered by Aikikai folks to be ikkyo, and others would be very clearly nikkyo.

Sean
x

L. Camejo
11-25-2004, 02:21 PM
I do know that some kote hineri would be considered by Aikikai folks to be ikkyo, and others would be very clearly nikkyo.

Now that I think of it you're absolutely correct. Have always wondered whether what we call Kote Mawashi would figure into an Ikkyo Nikkyo or Sankyo. I agree that there may not be a direct one to one relationship between the naming systems.

Now I realise why I catch so much hell trying to translate those.:)
LC:ai::ki:

Rupert Atkinson
11-25-2004, 08:55 PM
From Tomiki to Aikikai Aikido:

oshi-taoshi is ikkyo
kote-mawashi is nikkyo
kote-hineri is sankyo
tekubi-osae is yonkyo

At least, that's how it was when I did it.

L. Camejo
11-25-2004, 10:08 PM
From Tomiki to Aikikai Aikido:

oshi-taoshi is ikkyo
kote-mawashi is nikkyo
kote-hineri is sankyo
tekubi-osae is yonkyo

At least, that's how it was when I did it.

Well this is exactly what I was referring to.

The proper Shodokan name for the technique that often comes across as Kote Mawashi is actually Gyakutedori Kotehineri Osae which would make it Kotehineri (or Sankyo in Aikikai lingo) applied with a reverse (gyakute) grip. The thing is though that visually this technique looks a lot like what some folks call Nikkyo in Aikikai.

Go figure.
LC:ai::ki:

wildaikido
11-25-2004, 10:51 PM
Hi everyone,

This is exactly the type of discussion I didn't want to stimulate. Hence the "Please don't attack my list is only a ROUGH!!!!!! list for comparison." Notice all the exclamation marks.

But I open the door; well I claim only to have turned the door handle.

I perform my tenchi nage like shomen ate, just on the outside of uke, using my palm.

Now the kote hineri is a henka (variation) of the classic sankyo where you turn under ukes arm, which is tenkai kote hineri.

Might I just, to add insult to injury, I do Yoseikan and we call

ai gamae ate......................nodo oshi
oshi-taoshi......ikkyo...........robuse tori
kote-mawashi..nikkyo.........kote kudaki
kote-hineri.......sankyo........yuki chigai tori
waki gatame...hiji shime.....hiji kudaki
mae-otoshi.....hiji ate nage..tenbin nage

And let's remember I added the web site so people who do not know Tomiki waza can have a look.

Sigh,

lol,

Graham

maikerus
11-25-2004, 11:07 PM
Now you have to throw the Yoshinkan names in there so I can understand :)

Why do we have so many names for what is essentially the same technique, anyway? Is there a dictionary or a rosetta stone somewhere that translates all these names into the other names. And don't point me to the English translations, because they don't make sense to me either. :(

And why do people who live outside of Japan use more Japanese phrases within their Aikido than I do...than I have even heard after studying here for 12 years??? <sigh>

I must be soooo linguistically challenged...and here I thought I could get along (well, some of the time) in Japanese <wry grin>. At least I can order beer :)

cheers,

--Michael

wildaikido
11-25-2004, 11:39 PM
Aikikai to Yoshinkan, easy

ikkyo........ikkajo
nikkyo......nikajo
sankyo.....sankajo
yonkyo.....yonkajo

From what I have read Mochizuki Sensei said O sensei called Ikkyo, Robuse before the war, while he was training with him (this means arm rowing btw) and Yuki Chigai refers to the stepping under of uke's arm. I also think the Kudaki (crushing) was replace by the 'softer' mawashi (turn in) and shime (restrict).

Graham

maikerus
11-26-2004, 12:11 AM
That's four :)

deepsoup
11-26-2004, 07:00 AM
The proper Shodokan name for the technique that often comes across as Kote Mawashi is actually Gyakutedori Kotehineri Osae which would make it Kotehineri (or Sankyo in Aikikai lingo) applied with a reverse (gyakute) grip. The thing is though that visually this technique looks a lot like what some folks call Nikkyo in Aikikai.

You're quite right about 'kote mawashi', although there are still a lot of folk under the general Shodokan umbrella who use that term. (There are lots of folk in the UK and elsewhere who're not the least bit interested in how things are done at honbu, weird but true. :))

I wouldn't say that kotehineri translates to sankyo though, thats just the thing. Junte dori kote hineri (especially tenkai kote hineri - as in randori no kata) is pretty clearly sankyo, but some gyakute kote hineri are definitely nikkyo. (As in the 4th kyu grading syllabus suwari waza.)

The thing is though, other variations on gyakute kote hineri look more like ikkyo, because they're both kote hineri and oshi taoshi at the same time. If you look at the randori no kata no ura waza (counter techniques - see, I'm not totally off topic!), there are a couple of good examples where uke attempts aigamaeate and oshitaoshi, in both cases tori takes a gyakute dori grip and counters with oshi taoshi whilst applying kote hineri. I'm not sure if an Aikikai person watching would think of the technique as ikkyo or nikkyo, but I am pretty sure it wouldn't be sankyo.

But then if you think of ude hineri (again, from randori no kata), that can also be done whilst applying kote hineri (gyakute dori) - as it is in the goshin no kata - and an Aikikai person would almost certainly call that technique kaiten nage.

I think its best just not to attempt to translate the terminology, as there isn't a one to one correspondance, it generally adds more confusion than it clears up.

Sean
x

L. Camejo
11-26-2004, 07:35 AM
You summed it up very well Sean.

Hence my saying that there are not necessarily any one to one comparisons and translations to certain techniques.

I perform my tenchi nage like shomen ate, just on the outside of uke, using my palm.

On another note Sean, isn't Aigamae Ate defined by being in aigamae stance on completion of the throw from Uke's side, regardless of whether the palm or forearm etc. is used? In this case how can a throw done from the side in an Aigamae Ate/Tenchi Nage fashion be Shomen Ate which means frontal strike? I think Tomiki was very particular in separating one from the other based on relative body postioning. The same thing goes for gyakugamae ate, it depends on your position in relation to Uke. Of course in Aikikai all of the above is irimi nage. The above mentioned techniques can be seen here - http://www.ttac.0catch.com/atemi.htm .

Just checking to make sure though. I think it was important to Tomiki that the naming system be precise and appropriately define the technique.

As far as Kaeshi Waza though, I just love the Shomenate --> Waki Gatame response. One just slides right into the lock.:D

LC:ai::ki:

PeterR
11-26-2004, 07:57 AM
Just to be a pain (excuse the pun) but I use kote mawashi. The formal name is just too long.

deepsoup
11-26-2004, 11:39 AM
On another note Sean, isn't Aigamae Ate defined by being in aigamae stance on completion of the throw from Uke's side, regardless of whether the palm or forearm etc. is used? In this case how can a throw done from the side in an Aigamae Ate/Tenchi Nage fashion be Shomen Ate which means frontal strike? I think Tomiki was very particular in separating one from the other based on relative body postioning. The same thing goes for gyakugamae ate, it depends on your position in relation to Uke.

I don't know. I don't think you could really call it shomen ate. Although if you do shomenate in aigamae stance, does that make it aigamaeate too. And of course ushiroate is really an aigamaeate, just as gedanate is really gyakugamaeate. My head is starting to hurt. :hypno:

I agree about the shomenate-waki gatame. In fact that whole kata is really nice, definitely one of my favourites. (Sadly, that doesn't necessarily mean I do it very well!)

I use kote mawashi. The formal name is just too long.
Aha. Looks like I stand/sit corrected.

Sean
x

fatebass21
12-09-2004, 04:59 PM
I cant really go into detail and explain exactly how it is done, but the other day my Sensei countered someones nikkyo technique with the exact same nikkyo technique. Again I dont know how this was done exactly, and for me, a technique that looks easy usually isnt.

Look into it.

-Chris- :D

Alvin H. Nagasawa
01-01-2005, 01:27 AM
Regarding Counter Techniques.

First of all, counter techniques should not be taught to any kyu or yudansha unless by the dojo cho.

Any form of counter Techniques is my view, is the improper execution of the attack.and the uke can see a opening. But at this level only a experience and well developed practitioner can Counter the nage or uke. Practicing over and over again polish the individual until they become one. But if one is off in any way shape or form you are left open. usually its the sempai correcting the others attack or execution. There are so many factors involved in learning one technique to a level where one cannot be countered.

So my suggestion don't just go thought the motion in your training, be alert, use your Uke or Nage as your shield to protect yourself when its needed.

I will agree with the others that have posted there comments on this subject. Aikido is not a competitive MA and lets keep it that way. For those who believe in what the founder started.

Well, I wish you all Peace and good will to man. And a Happy New year to you and yours in Y2005.
Train safely and respect your training partner and your Sensei. Hope to hear more of your comments in the Aiki Web Site.

PeterR
01-01-2005, 02:54 AM
For us ten ura techniques are taught as requirements for 1st Kyu and 14 kaeshiwaza techniques for Nidan and up. However, all techniques encountered anywhere in the syllabus, can be taught to any student by whoever runs the class. For us there is no separation of students or forbidden techniques.

I personally consider kaeshiwaza and ura techniques the highest expression of what we do - an understanding of which allows for free flowing technique and a loss of the tor/uke distinction.

mj
01-01-2005, 07:09 AM
Just to be a pain (excuse the pun) but I use kote mawashi. The formal name is just too long.
Gyaku-te dori kote hineri, if anyone is interested.

PeterR
01-01-2005, 08:01 PM
Its a pin so tack on Osae and you would have it all.

Diarmuid66
01-02-2005, 10:25 AM
Regarding Counter Techniques.



I will agree with the others that have posted there comments on this subject. Aikido is not a competitive MA and lets keep it that way. For those who believe in what the founder started.

.
:hypno: Alvin ; I am sorry to disagree with you. You may be right to say Traditional Aikido is not a competitive martial art.
Tomiki Aikido is competitive...and it is Aikido. The role of uke and tori blur and blend in competition just as they would in the "street" ...unless your technique comes with a hundred % success guarantee? ;)

Alvin H. Nagasawa
01-02-2005, 01:56 PM
Tomiki Aikido is competitive...and it is Aikido. The role of uke and tori blur and blend in competition just as they would in the "street" ...unless your technique comes with a hundred % success guarantee? ;)[/QUOTE]
:ai: :ki: :do: :) :circle: :square: :triangle:

I respect all other forms of Aikido, My teacher S. Yoshioka Shihan 8th Dan Honolulu, Hawaii. Gave his support to the Founder / Doshu an Aikikai Hombu Dojo Japan. As his student it is my wish to follow the path he laid out.
I will on this path discover many differences of options on what is Aikido. I'm not perfect or enlighten in any way shape or form. The world of Aikido has reached thought out the globe. I wish to communicate with everyone involved in what Aikido means to them. There path that they have taken. And hopefully we will all reach that light at the end of the tunnel.

Diarmuid66
01-02-2005, 05:04 PM
I respect all other forms of Aikido


Alvin, in which case why do you not say "MY Aikido is not competitive". I also respect other forms and other ways. Ura waza is exploring the expansion of the story. Do you truly believe that the only story is " one attack defeated by one technique "..can you not imagine a situation where your reaction/technique to an attack is not totally successful ; a situation where the attacker has free will and a free mind to do ANYTHING including ,yes , AIKIDO , in response to what you do?

Alvin H. Nagasawa
01-03-2005, 04:36 PM
Regarding Counter Techniques.

First of all, counter techniques should not be taught to any kyu or yudansha unless by the dojo cho.

Any form of counter Techniques is my view, is the improper execution of the attack.and the uke can see a opening. But at this level only a experience and well developed practitioner can Counter the nage or uke. Practicing over and over again polish the individual until they become one. But if one is off in any way shape or form you are left open. usually its the sempai correcting the others attack or execution. There are so many factors involved in learning one technique to a level where one cannot be countered.

So my suggestion don't just go thought the motion in your training, be alert, use your Uke or Nage as your shield to protect yourself when its needed.

I will agree with the others that have posted there comments on this subject. Aikido is not a competitive MA and lets keep it that way. For those who believe in what the founder started.

Well, I wish you all Peace and good will to man. And a Happy New year to you and yours in Y2005.
Train safely and respect your training partner and your Sensei. Hope to hear more of your comments in the Aiki Web Site. Here is another perspective. to teach counter-techniques as a way to point out the flaws in the original technique.So many students don't have an appreciation as to why a technique must be executed exactly. Because of this initial flaw, it is possible to preform a counter -technique. Then the next is to show how to counter that counter-technique. Of course the counter-counter-technique is simply fixing the original technique.Thats is to say, the counter-technique is a good way to show the "bugs"in the initial execution. In this way the student has a motivation to fix and eliminate the bugs.After all we don't preform a technique just-so for stylistic or mystical reasons. Aikido is a martial art. Every detail has consequences. Some (good) consequences are the result we desire. The other (bad) consequences are the results, we are training to eliminate. "Polishing a technique to get it right the first time is striving for the real essence". by E.C.

gene02421
01-03-2005, 04:38 PM
I just found this thread today. Interesting reading. However I take a completely different approach to the use of counter-techniques.

I like to teach counter-techniques as a way to point out the flaws in the original technique. So many students don’t have an appreciation as to why a technique must be executed exactly. Because of this, they don't have an interest in the practice requred to perfect their execution of a technique. It is this initial flaw in a technique's execution that opens the door to the counter-technique.

Hence, I like to teach a counter-technique in three steps. First the basic technique. Then comes the counter techniqued.The natural reaction for students being introduced to counter-techniques for the first time is to question why we spend so much time on practicing the base initial technique when it can be countered. This is the perfect transition to the third step.

Then third next step is to show how to counter that counter-technique. Of course the counter-counter-technique is simply fixing the original technique. That is to say, the counter-technique is a good way to show the “bugs” in the initial execution. In this way the student now has the motivation to fix and eliminate the bugs. After all we don’t perform a technique just-so for stylistic or mystical reasons. Aikido is a martial art. Every detail has consequences. Some (good) consequences are the results we desire. The other (bad) consequences are the results we are training to eliminate. Practice is the process where we make our results consistent to ensure we can always get the results we need. For some of us, it takes a long time and a lot of practice to persue perfection.

Gene Chang
Harvard University Aikido Club

NagaBaba
01-03-2005, 09:05 PM
Me, as uke, I practice reception of every technique as a counter. Right from the beginning as I’m attacking I try to change direction, timing, rhythm and speed of attack. Even during pins. If technique is well done, my counter failed, if technique is crap, my counter is done. It has nothing to do with competition, it is simply feeling of technique. I can do it with eyes closed every time. I don't need to finish my counter with classic aikido technique; off balance and a simple throw in third point is enough.
Of course, beginners are not aware of this process; they don’t understand all openings in their techniques. So I don't need any words to help them, they see the physical results. In the same time I develop spontaneous reaction and any classification is useless. I found it much more benefic then well defined counters ex: sankyo against nikkyo, ikkyo against ikkyo….
More experienced instructors do it with me, so I can find openings in my technique and work on it. Without this kind of interaction aikido is dead.

gene02421
01-04-2005, 11:37 AM
NagaBaba,
I agree that as uke, it is very instructive to always be feeling for any openings that may develop that would allow an atemi or countering technique. However for the readers of this thread, it is important to make this a positive training experience for nage. This is especially important if nage is less experienced. It would become a safety problem if this descends into a wrestling match,

Training as the mutual polishing of both partners. When I am in the role of uke, learning to feel how openings develop is very helpful for developing understanding of problems to avoid when it is my turn to be nage. The delivery of an atemi or a countering technique is not essential (but often fun) to the self-directed improvement.

Gene

jonreading
01-04-2005, 12:11 PM
Peter hit the nail on the head - kaeshiwaza techniques are part of training. They are more complicated to understand than henka waza, but no different in application. Also, kaeshiwaza may not have a place in beginner curriculum, but that doesn't mean it should be restricted in instruction.

Kaeshiwaza is a great way to learn about timing, technique, balance and openings. Why would you deprive your students of that opportunity?

wendyrowe
02-04-2005, 11:04 PM
...Also, kaeshiwaza may not have a place in beginner curriculum, but that doesn't mean it should be restricted in instruction.

Kaeshiwaza is a great way to learn about timing, technique, balance and openings. Why would you deprive your students of that opportunity?
In Jason DeLucia Sensei's classes, we start learning kaeshiwaza practically from the beginning. First we learn a technique; then after we've practiced it, we learn something else to do if the first technique fails; then we learn a third technique to use similarly. Sensei tells us to use them like "Rock, paper, scissors" -- as soon as we know one fails, we're in position for the next and the next, and so on.

It's not that difficult; we're learning new techniques anyway, so why not present them in a way that teaches us how they lead into each other?

Bronson
02-05-2005, 01:40 AM
First we learn a technique; then after we've practiced it, we learn something else to do if the first technique fails; then we learn a third technique to use similarly....

I believe what you are describing is more along the lines of Henka-waza (changing from one technique to another). Kaeshi-waza are reversal techniques. Nage attempts a technique, leaves an opening, and uke uses this opening to do a counter technique.

Of course I could be wrong ;)

Bronson

PeterR
02-06-2005, 06:25 PM
Bronson is correct.

wendyrowe
02-06-2005, 09:47 PM
I believe what you are describing is more along the lines of Henka-waza (changing from one technique to another). Kaeshi-waza are reversal techniques. Nage attempts a technique, leaves an opening, and uke uses this opening to do a counter technique.

My mistake, not my sensei's; I must have gotten a wire crossed somewhere. Or, in the immortal words of Gilda Radner on Saturday Night Live, "Never mind!"

Now that my henka/kaeshi confusion is cleared up: We generally practice one technique over and over, on both sides, then do the same with its variations as I'd said. For our next step, we use those techniques in "swapping throws" -- the partners take turns doing techniques on each other (or trying to do techniques on each other; they don't always work), choosing from what they know that fits the situation. It's more controlled than randori since they're taking turns, and it gives the partners an opportunity to look for openings left over after the partner's attempt and to exploit those openings. THAT'S kaeshiwaza, right?

Amir Krause
02-07-2005, 04:58 AM
I don't get the connection some draw from Kaeshi-waza to competitive nature. In our dojo, we learn Kaeshi-waza once the student is mature enough to learn them. As one progress, one comes to realize there is not a list of techniques and possible counters, rather each technique has lots of opportunities for easy, un forced, execution.

Kaeshi-waza is just learning of another opportunity to perform the technique in another context. This context is slightly more difficult some times, though is should not be for the experienced student.

The nature of Randori we practice, with a blur of Tori & Nage (both attack and react freely) creates situations in which students come to use Kaeshi-waza even before they learn it formally, they feel the opportunity and go with it. And no, that Randori is not competitive and one does not keep any score on it.

Amir

phil farmer
02-11-2005, 10:45 AM
Just my two cents worth from the Yoseikan perspective. We have an entire kata of reversals that is learned at Dan ranks but we teach students from day one that any technique can be reversed. It is especially true when new students start with the, "well I could just do this if you do that" conversations. I appreciated the discussion of how we all approach reversals and it is easy to see that we have a language barrier with regard to how we name each technique.

I would also like to note that some folks indicate that having a technique reversed means you did not do the technique correctly to begin with. That is true for beginners but for those who have practiced and teach, every technique has an opening. In Yoseikan, our logo of sky, mountain and river extends outside the circle of our patch in recognition of this. As Master Hiroo Mochizuki points out, there is no perfect technique. Every technique can be countered, if you possess the knowledge, sensitivity and ki to find the opening.

We do a light randori (kyeoi randori) that is a continuous "feedback" loop if you will, that is application of technique, reversal of that technique and so forth. It teaches each student that there is no perfect technique and the sensitivity to find new answers. We call this a conversation in Yoseikan - I ask, you answer, I answer and ask again, etc. The fall comes when you are asked a question you cannot answer. Then we begin again. Again, every technique can be reversed, if one possesses enough answers to the questions asked.

Phil Farmer

AaronFrancher
02-27-2005, 09:34 PM
Although you asked for Aikido techniques, I believe reading Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kune Do could be quite enlightening. He doesn't explain too many formal techniques, however he does bring to light many similiar ones. I've personally integrated some of his ideas into my own classes. Hope it helps!

rob_liberti
02-28-2005, 09:36 AM
That's interesting. I absolutely don't agree that every technique can be countered.

I think that as long as the person is doign the right thing, at the right time, in the right position then you should not argue. If your technique accounts for those factors then the uke should take ukemi and there should be no other options besides the suicide/kamakazi responce - and I have hope that I'll learn how to deal with that kind of thing optimally as well.

Rob

L. Camejo
02-28-2005, 02:03 PM
I think that as long as the person is doign the right thing, at the right time, in the right position then you should not argue.
Exactly. And if the person you are training with is better at the above than you are or is able to predetermine your intended path and then blend with your movement and redirect it, then chances are that person's Kaeshiwaza will be more likely to end up in a completed technique, unless of course you can use his energy and apply a reversal of your own.

The beauty of counters and its effect on raising the level of our practice is that we can use the energy of "correct, centred and stable" movements and destabilise or redirect them in a manner to aid in our own technique. Kaeshiwaza is not only a reactive practice, but a proactive one where we learn to quickly read (and intuit) the motion patterns of our partner and find ways to use it to our advantage. In this way all techniques can be countered if the correct combination of sensitivity and technical knowledge are combined. It's like going with the flow so you can change the course of the river imho.;)

The key to having "uncounterable" technique may lie in being continuously sensitive to slight changes in your partner's movements so that you can cancel or render ineffective any movements your partner may use to counter your initial technique before he executes them. Of course this gets to the point where the one who is more sensitive and quicker to apply an effective response is the one who is able to execute a technique that cannot be cancelled or countered.

I actually use this a lot when we practice kaeshiwaza, I will give my partner a false sense of security that he will get off a relatively easy technique and remain totally relaxed and compliant until the instant when I reverse his technique and apply one of my own. It works beautifully in resistance randori. :cool: Of course if he is sensitive enough he can counter my counter and off we go, which is why relaxation is so important to maintain one's sensitivity in the midst of applying technique, especially during resistance practice. But the key is to catch them when they are almost 100% sure that it is impossible to escape, sort of like moving at the very last second in tai sabaki and letting your attacker believe that he has hit you when you in fact have him as you evade and he is plunged into a vacuum of total confusion - (mental kuzushi?).

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

rob_liberti
02-28-2005, 02:32 PM
I agree. In the ideal situation, you should be able to do something fairly unstoppable by most people provided they give an honest and commited attack. In reality, there are often weaknesses which can be exploited and addressed by collaborative practice.

Here is a related story I heard: After Yamaguchi sensei had been a shihan for several decades, someone apparently said to him something like 'it must be nice to be able to do shomenuchi ikkyo to anyone' and the story goes that he responded 'yeah, I've really felt like I could do it to anyone these past couple years or so'. So, while I think the ideal is attainable, I think that the bar is set pretty high and that is just for shomenuchi - which is more of a symbolic attack than anything else.

Rob

mathewjgano
03-06-2005, 08:37 PM
I have been searching for books, publications etc., on Kaishi waza (counter) techniques in Aikido.
Is there anyone out there with any knowledge of said techniques, publications etc.

Information would be greatly appreciated

Roger Evans

I'm sure more qualified people than myself have already replied, but I think if you consider counters in terms of principles it makes it easier. Every technique can be countered, provided there is enough slack in your own position (ie-you're not too over-extended).
With shihonage I've countered by dropping the engaged elbow and turning toward them, ending up ura, but I had to engage my own center first and reach through my palm; I've countered by simply reaching through my palm to "push" nage backward. Sometimes, I counter it and sometimes I come close to doing so and sometimes I'm nowhere near it...lately, via a lack of training, it's usually the latter.
Sankkyo can often be countered if you're able to bend your pinkie and then drop your elbow...I learned a very cool nikkyo counter where instead of going down as uke, we entered and put out wrist on our own chest, dropped our center and pivoted. If your timing is good, you'll throw nage or off-balance him enough to do something else.

mathewjgano
03-06-2005, 08:46 PM
That's interesting. I absolutely don't agree that every technique can be countered.
Rob

I think it depends on the relative positioning. There is definately a point where you simply cannot negotiate, and the better you are, the less "negotiating" uke will be able to do. However, every motion itself can be redirected, and in this sense, any technique can be "countered." I tend to not like the word "counter" because it implies a reactionary mind-frame to me, but with proper balance and awareness, one can harmonize with any movement and make it their own.

Ketsan
03-12-2005, 06:09 PM
I think that not acknowleging counter techniques from day one is dangerous and unmartial. I've done many martial arts and I often find brilliant opertunities to use them while I'm uking. Of course since it's training I've never actually put them to use but I know they're there. Ju-jitsu especially seems to offer plenty of of ways of distrupting and countering. Often I find that I take ukemi not because the technique requires me to but because I am expected to. I think Aikido is very much about "the expected" where everything fits very neatly into a series of kata with an uke that co-operates and is harmonized with us. This isn't a healthy envoirnonment in my opinion and throwing the occasional spanner in the works would be very useful in making sure that we don't settle into a mindset which expects a predictable series of events and in turn makes us into automatons (Tori mind). "Uke mind" is not the same mindset as someone off the street who wants to attack you. Even when Uke resists I find that they are resisting the technique rather than resisting me. I might have an uke on the floor during ikkyo struggling to lift my entire body weight, which incidently I don't have a lot of, with their shoulder when it would be so much easier for them to move to the side and stand up or sweep my leg and push me back thus tipping me over.

Also my experience of counters is that they are essentially Aikido techniques to counter Aikido techniques rather than usually fairly common sence ways as described above.
Returning to the idea of sweeping (or reaping), I've noticed being free from counter attack during a technique in Aikido usually means that uke's fist can't reach tori's jaw and this is often demonstrated. Often though uke's fist will quite easily reach well past tori's balls and uke's legs can quite easily sweep tori's feet or uke ends up in a position to put in a round house kick etc. I think these qualify as counters.
Yet this kind of thing doesn't exist within Aikido and so it's regarded as not existing. Thus the first time most Aikidoka are likely to see it is when their attacker uses it and at that time none of their training will be relevent. So I think it's important to occasionally point out these things during training so that at least if it happens in real life it isn't a total surprise in a potentially life or death situation.

Charles Hill
03-15-2005, 12:52 AM
Often I find that I take ukemi not because the technique requires me to but because I am expected to.

Hi Alex,

I am wondering why you would do this? And if you disagree with this idea, why would you train at such a place?

Charles

pezalinski
03-15-2005, 12:56 PM
Often I find that I take ukemi not because the technique requires me to but because I am expected to.

I can relate to that -- much of aikido training is being in harmony with the other person, either as uke or as nage... and countering a technique may or may not be appropriate. Sometimes, you need to instruct the nage how to perform the technique properly by putting yourself in the position you should be in had they executed it correctly. On the other hand, a firm counter can be used to tell nage that they're still not doing it right, and why. As Tohei Sensei use to say, "Case by Case".

Uke's job is to constantly be on the offensive without self-endangerment -- the technique isn't over until the pin is compete (and if zanshin is proper, not even then). And the simplest counter is often the most effective -- atemi.

IMHO, if one is uke for someone of ones' own level or higher, and you feel you have an opening for a punch, kick, or grab (and the other person is not going to inadvertently injure you, or you them, in the showing of this "opening"), then go for it. If the opening is "real," then there is a flaw in the execution of the technique. You have to test their defenses to see if what they are doing is really effective.

Sometimes, in practice, what I saw as an opening was just another opportunity to experience pain :D . More often, it mean that the nage had not yet "found" the complete technique, yet, and was either out of position (not in a safe place), or poorly executing the lock or throw (e.g. entered with their elbow extended, begging for a counter). Sometimes, too, it was because I was being a poor uke, and was not committing to the original attack and was already looking for a secondary opening.

IMHO, gentle atemi and such counters are another way of telling uke, "that's not IT, yet." Usually, actions speak louder than words to convey the message, and express it more eloquently.

Ketsan
03-15-2005, 03:52 PM
I take ukemi because I feel that I am learning an art and it's a "when in rome" thing.
I stay in the dojo because I like the place and the people and I've done other arts so I know how to look after myself. Also I've started back at Ju-jitsu. All this means that I can just do Aikido for the enjoyment of doing Aikido.