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PeterR
04-28-2013, 08:23 AM
Over beer last night I was asked a question I could not even pretend I knew the answer to.

When/who introduced the naming conventions for the aikido techniques. Specifically the Ikkyo .... series. When was it first published.

The source of the name I heard last night made no sense to me - but |I could not give a good counter answer.

philipsmith
04-28-2013, 10:57 AM
Hi Peter

check out the alternative names thread on the technical forum for a similar discussion. I believe Nidai Doshu formalized the current nomenclature.

PeterR
04-28-2013, 04:12 PM
Hi Peter

check out the alternative names thread on the technical forum for a similar discussion. I believe Nidai Doshu formalized the current nomenclature.
Thanks Philip;

I had always attributed to Aikikai's second doshu but the point was raised why would Shioda name the same techniques Ikkajo, etc. It was suggested the nomenclature was earlier than that.

At that point I nodded gravely and drank some more beer.

Janet Rosen
04-28-2013, 04:47 PM
At that point I nodded gravely and drank some more beer.

Always a safe path :)

Ellis Amdur
04-28-2013, 05:29 PM
I just looked at the pre-war book by Sunadomari Kanemoto:

We see, there:
There is suwariwaza, hanmi-handachi, irimi, tai no henka, shihonage, aikikinage (not that's not a typo). Otherwise, the techniques are named only by the part of the body attacked.

Chris Li
04-28-2013, 09:47 PM
Thanks Philip;

I had always attributed to Aikikai's second doshu but the point was raised why would Shioda name the same techniques Ikkajo, etc. It was suggested the nomenclature was earlier than that.

At that point I nodded gravely and drank some more beer.

I would think that Shioda wouldn't have been naming things until he opened the Yoshinkan - in 1955, around the same time that Aikikai Hombu got rolling again...

Best,

Chris

Ellis Amdur
04-29-2013, 01:24 AM
I do not have copies - what are the names of techniques in Ueshiba's two pre-war books. Budo Renshu and - - - can't remember the other name?

Chris Li
04-29-2013, 01:37 AM
I do not have copies - what are the names of techniques in Ueshiba's two pre-war books. Budo Renshu and - - - can't remember the other name?

There aren't really any names in either Budo or Budo Renshu - in Budo most of the listings are by attack (with some response given), or different types of "tanren" and conditioning exercises.

Of course, you have to remember that he was handing out Daito-ryu scrolls during the period that those books were written - and I assume that they would have contained the technique names (the Daito-ryu names).

Best,

Chris

PeterR
04-29-2013, 03:57 AM
There aren't really any names in either Budo or Budo Renshu - in Budo most of the listings are by attack (with some response given), or different types of "tanren" and conditioning exercises.

Of course, you have to remember that he was handing out Daito-ryu scrolls during the period that those books were written - and I assume that they would have contained the technique names (the Daito-ryu names).

Best,

Chris
So considering the differences (in spelling) and similarities (techniques) the naming conventions would have been evolving before Shioda started the Yoshinkan but probably not much before. Wandering now about usage in Iwama.

philipsmith
04-29-2013, 07:26 AM
Although I still think that Nidai Doshu formalized current nomenclature I think the terminology had been around for a long time. As I understand it he tried to clear up the confusion of the same technique being called different things by different instructors.
So Ikkyo was Ikkyo or Ikkajo or ude osae depending on who was teaching for example.

Scott Harrington
04-29-2013, 02:03 PM
1 kajo 2 kajo 3 kajo 4 -- You say IKkyo and I say ikkajo, or ude osae or ippon dori orů..

From a quick on-line check:
Ikkyo -- first teaching
Ikkajo -- first clause

The use of Ikkajo is oft hooked up with supposed Daito ryu roots. Actually Ikkajo just refers to the first CHAPTER of the Hiden Mokuroku which include many techniques, the first being ude osae (arm pin)

In the "Secret Teachings of Self Defense" this technique is called Uchiteomote. This involves a strike first, then the standard ikkyo movement and following pin.

So, a couple of things.

Use of Kyo (teaching) took away from the Ĺcollected techniques' meaning of kajo which can mean bullet point or organized items from a larger work (The Hiden M.) This was probably Aikido trying to distance itself from its Daito ryu roots (which is documented) and also simplify the convoluted structure.

The ST of SD, an undocumented copy of much of the Budo Renshu has a wide range of named techniques which are rarely called that today let alone used today. (e.g. Yubiori, uchikudaki, tsubamegaeshi, uchiteura, sodetawoshi (which today would be single hand shoulder / upper arm grasp to ikkkyo), and my favorite - gansekiotoshi (not Saito's version but an elbow lock over the shoulder to a throw.)

Looking at the French manual "L'Aiki-Do La Victorire" we see the author Tadashi Abe and Jean Zin still using the kajo format in the 1950's - early 1960's edition. There are separate different techniques in each labeled Ĺkajo section. Close to modern Aikido in look.

The French book "Methode d' Aikido Jiu Jitsu by Minoru Mochizuki with Jim Alcheik (mid 1950's) is set up solely by technique name followed by various attacks countered with that particular waza. Interesting is Yuki Chigae is the name used for Sankyo (3rd control). Also has a very DANGEROUS neck technique at the end which you RARELY see anymore in the Aikido curriculum. Much more dangerous than that listed under men nage (head throw) in the Cranes' tapes and book.

So it seems, there was some carryover of names from the old Daito ryu (which also listed a large number as only numbers) but also a wide range of grouping. The Nidai had to contend with instructors that had studied under his father while he still taught Daito ryu. It must have been a concerted effort to standardize format and nomenclature and safety like Kano of Judo to help introduce this initially small art to the western world.
Scott Harrington

Cliff Judge
04-29-2013, 03:24 PM
It would make a nice story if ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo were contrived as distillations of the corresponding series of kata in the Hiden Mokuroku.

I.e. ikkyo captures the core principal of the ikkajo series, nikyo captures the core principle of the nikkajo series, etc.

This is something I have heard before but it is almost too tidy to hope for.

odudog
04-29-2013, 08:15 PM
From all of my teaching materials, Osensei just paired down the names of the techniques. Aikido still contains many of the techniques from Daito-ryu, we just don't distinguish a lot of them only because one insignificant movement changed. As was stated before, kajo, of the ikkajo means the volume of a series. Budo Renshu doesn't name any techniques, they are all numbered. Shioda Sensei was the first student receiving permission from Osensei to go and teach, therefore, Yoshinkan contains a lot of the technique verbiage as Daito-ryu for that was the way Osensei was teaching at that time.

Here are the techniques of Daito-ryu's Ikkajo in order:

 ippon dori 一本捕 one long thing grab
 gyaku ude dori 逆腕捕 reverse arm grab (nikyo omote)
 hiji gaeshi 肘返し elbow return
 kuruma daoshi 車倒し carriage throw (sumi otoshi)
 shime kaeshi 絞め返し choke return (kokyu nage)
 daki jime 抱締め hug (a person) choke
 karami nage 手扌弱投 entangle, bind throw (juji nage)
 kote gaeshi 小手返し return wrist (reverse kote gaeshi)
 nukite dori 抜手捕 withdraw grab
 hiza shime 膝締め knee hug
 hanmi nage 半身投 half body throw
 ura otoshi 裏落 rear drop
 izori 居友 sitting backwards body drop
 kata otoshi 肩落 shoulder drop
 irimi nage 入身投 enter body throw (shiho nage)
 koshi guruma 腰車 lower back carry
 obi otoshi 帯落 belt drop
 kiri kaeshi 切返し cutoff return (a twisting backward knee trip)
 shiho nage 四方投 four direction throw
 tachieri dori 五襟捕 standing collar grab
 ryokata hineri 両肩捻 both shoulder twist
 ryohiji gaeshi 両肘返し both elbow return
 takano tsume 詰め stopper

Cliff Judge
04-29-2013, 08:26 PM
From all of my teaching materials, Osensei just paired down the names of the techniques. Aikido still contains many of the techniques from Daito-ryu, we just don't distinguish a lot of them only because one insignificant movement changed. As was stated before, kajo, of the ikkajo means the volume of a series. Budo Renshu doesn't name any techniques, they are all numbered. Shioda Sensei was the first student receiving permission from Osensei to go and teach, therefore, Yoshinkan contains a lot of the technique verbiage as Daito-ryu for that was the way Osensei was teaching at that time.

Here are the techniques of Daito-ryu's Ikkajo in order:

 ippon dori 一本捕 one long thing grab
 gyaku ude dori 逆腕捕 reverse arm grab (nikyo omote)
 hiji gaeshi 肘返し elbow return
 kuruma daoshi 車倒し carriage throw (sumi otoshi)
 shime kaeshi 絞め返し choke return (kokyu nage)
 daki jime 抱締め hug (a person) choke
 karami nage 手扌弱投 entangle, bind throw (juji nage)
 kote gaeshi 小手返し return wrist (reverse kote gaeshi)
 nukite dori 抜手捕 withdraw grab
 hiza shime 膝締め knee hug
 hanmi nage 半身投 half body throw
 ura otoshi 裏落 rear drop
 izori 居友 sitting backwards body drop
 kata otoshi 肩落 shoulder drop
 irimi nage 入身投 enter body throw (shiho nage)
 koshi guruma 腰車 lower back carry
 obi otoshi 帯落 belt drop
 kiri kaeshi 切返し cutoff return (a twisting backward knee trip)
 shiho nage 四方投 four direction throw
 tachieri dori 五襟捕 standing collar grab
 ryokata hineri 両肩捻 both shoulder twist
 ryohiji gaeshi 両肘返し both elbow return
 takano tsume 詰め stopper

Out of curiosity, which order is this? Is this from a particular group's syllabus or from some time in Aikido's past?

odudog
04-29-2013, 08:35 PM
Out of curiosity, which order is this? Is this from a particular group's syllabus or from some time in Aikido's past?

That is from the two dvds that I have from two different instructors. They both had them in that order. One I bought which Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei produced. The second was given to me from a Daito-ryu student. I think the instructor is a descendent from Takeda (no English translation on this dvd and my wife isn't going to sit with me to translate).

Cliff Judge
04-29-2013, 08:48 PM
That is from the two dvds that I have from two different instructors. They both had them in that order. One I bought which Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei produced. The second was given to me from a Daito-ryu student. I think the instructor is a descendent from Takeda (no English translation on this dvd and my wife isn't going to sit with me to translate).

Thanks. Stan Pranin's materials show only 20 techniques in the Nikkajo sequence. I wonder if the other Daito ryu groups teach these.

odudog
04-29-2013, 08:53 PM
My dvd has 21 techniques in th nikajo.

Cliff Judge
04-29-2013, 09:35 PM
Thanks. Stan Pranin's materials show only 20 techniques in the Nikkajo sequence. I wonder if the other Daito ryu groups teach these.

I meant 'ikkajo' :/

PeterR
04-30-2013, 03:22 AM
Shioda Sensei was the first student receiving permission from Osensei to go and teach, therefore, Yoshinkan contains a lot of the technique verbiage as Daito-ryu for that was the way Osensei was teaching at that time.
Not quite right in that there were several students out teaching before that - some of whom never adopted the Ikkyo/Ikajo ... convention.

odudog
04-30-2013, 07:54 PM
Not quite right in that there were several students out teaching before that - some of whom never adopted the Ikkyo/Ikajo ... convention.

Just to be clear, ikyo does not equal ikajo. Ikyo is the name of a technique while ikajo is not s technique.

Chris Li
04-30-2013, 08:07 PM
Just to be clear, ikyo does not equal ikajo. Ikyo is the name of a technique while ikajo is not s technique.

Except that it is a technique in certain schools such as the Yoshinkan.

Best,

Chris

patrick de block
05-01-2013, 02:26 PM
To add to the confusion. In Tomiki techniques are named for what you are doing (more or less) to Uke, except for the first five which are named according to the relative positions. And sometimes names are so well known that the most common are used. And because I like being a dick sometimes I call them by different names and sometimes invent names. So I have a technique called 'whirling leaf' which is not in the present day seventeen but was in the original structure Tomiki devised.

PeterR
05-02-2013, 03:00 AM
To add to the confusion. In Tomiki techniques are named for what you are doing (more or less) to Uke, except for the first five which are named according to the relative positions. And sometimes names are so well known that the most common are used. And because I like being a dick sometimes I call them by different names and sometimes invent names. So I have a technique called 'whirling leaf' which is not in the present day seventeen but was in the original structure Tomiki devised.
The name or the technique? What is the technique?

MRoh
05-02-2013, 04:33 AM
Just to be clear, ikyo does not equal ikajo. Ikyo is the name of a technique while ikajo is not s technique.

Hi,

Ikkyo, Ikkajo, Ude osae, ippon dori, oshi taoshi, all are names for the same technique in different systems.

Maybe the way how the technique is executed differs, ippon dori in Daito ryu appears not like ikkyo in modern Aikido.

ChrisMikk
05-03-2013, 09:23 AM
Except that it is a technique in certain schools such as the Yoshinkan.

Not sure: "shomen uchi ikkajo osae ichi" is a technique. Would you say "ikkajo" is a technique?

Carsten M÷llering
05-03-2013, 09:38 AM
"Ikkaj˘ is a technique in which ..."

Shioda G˘z˘, Shioda Yasuhisa, translated by David Rubens: Total Aikido, The Master Course, Tokyo, New York, London1996, page 82

Practicing with yoshinkan yudansha and reading books of Shioda G˘z˘ never made me think to not regard ikkaj˘, nikaj˘, sankaj˘ ... as certain techniques. The use of these terms in Yoshinkan to me seems clearly different from the use in Dait˘ ryű or koryű where these word refer to segments of the curriculum.

Chris Li
05-03-2013, 10:10 AM
Not sure: "shomen uchi ikkajo osae ichi" is a technique. Would you say "ikkajo" is a technique?

Well, yes....

Best,

Chris

Dave de Vos
05-04-2013, 04:53 AM
Not sure: "shomen uchi ikkajo osae ichi" is a technique. Would you say "ikkajo" is a technique?

Isn't it just a matter of convention?

I'm an aikikai student.
Watching I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM7XJ98gV74 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmZnJjW7NVo I would say that shomen uchi ikkajo osae ichi in yoshinkan is shomen uchi ikkyo omote in aikikai and shomen uchi ikkajo osae ni in yoshinkan is shomen uchi ikkyo ura in aikikai.

To me it seems that shomen uchi (forehead strike) is the attack and the defense (elbow lock) is called ikkajo osae in yoshinkan and ikkyo in aikikai. Omote and ura are positioning variations meaning "the front" and "the back" (of the attacker).

In my experience, technique in aikikai usually refers to what the defender does (ikkyo omote, or just ikkyo). One of my teachers regularly states that aikido has only a small numbers of techniques. But in some contexts, technique refers to the combination of attack and defense (like shomen uchi ikkyo omote), on a list of test requirements for example.

So perhaps what is commonly called a technique in aikikai, might be called a series in yoshinkan. I've never heard about series in aikikai.

Bernd Lehnen
05-04-2013, 02:18 PM
Isn't it just a matter of convention?

I'm an aikikai student.
Watching I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM7XJ98gV74 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmZnJjW7NVo I would say that shomen uchi ikkajo osae ichi in yoshinkan is shomen uchi ikkyo omote in aikikai and shomen uchi ikkajo osae ni in yoshinkan is shomen uchi ikkyo ura in aikikai.

To me it seems that shomen uchi (forehead strike) is the attack and the defense (elbow lock) is called ikkajo osae in yoshinkan and ikkyo in aikikai. Omote and ura are positioning variations meaning "the front" and "the back" (of the attacker).

In my experience, technique in aikikai usually refers to what the defender does (ikkyo omote, or just ikkyo). One of my teachers regularly states that aikido has only a small numbers of techniques. But in some contexts, technique refers to the combination of attack and defense (like shomen uchi ikkyo omote), on a list of test requirements for example.

So perhaps what is commonly called a technique in aikikai, might be called a series in yoshinkan. I've never heard about series in aikikai.

What Dave de Vos said.

But why is this so important at all?

If I made it up all myself, I'd say ikkyo is the first principle, shown with the technique ude osae, working against any thinkable attack, like for example shomen uchi , which in itself is a principle of attack. Omote and ura were not to be confounded with irimi and tenkan. Omote, i'd say is in front of the eyes of uke and at the same time has the meaning of what is obvious and shown , whereas ura is in the back of uke or what isn't obvious or hidden and not overtly shown.
Then you can follow up doing alike with the second principle, nikkyo, shown with the technique kote mawashi, the third principle, sankyo, shown with kote hineri and so on and on....:cool:
Of course, I simply made it up, right now. Does it really matter?

Best
Bernd

patrick de block
05-12-2013, 05:49 AM
The name or the technique? What is the technique?

The technique.

Kote mawashi.

Keith Larman
05-12-2013, 09:24 AM
Just to toss something out among those who know much more than me...

In my professional world there is a ton of vocabulary for sword polishing, parts of swords, polishing techniques, types of swords, and on and on and on. I could probably name a handful of Japanese words that are *for the most part* interchangeable that refer to the edge of a Japanese sword. However, that said, there are usually some subtle differences here and there where when used in context the word might have additional meanings or a different "feel" to it. Just to pull two out at random, the "ha" of a sword and the "yakiba" of a sword. The ha is generally used to refer to the edge. Period. Yakiba is also used to refer to the edge. Except when someone is also making a point about how the edge of Japanese swords are steel in a hard and relatively brittle state (as contrasted with the softer body or the lower carbon soft core or ...). So yakiba can have some additional meaning if the person intends. But many times it doesn't. And sometimes it's just your best guess if the person who wrote something meant to include the additional connotation and "flavor" of the word.

The reason I bring this up is that the craft and art of the Japanese sword has a history that spans over 1000 years. There are so many terms that evolved along the way, some with subtle differences in meaning. And I would hazard to say that most of those words have meaning that has evolved and morphed over time with usage, the style of the day, the tone of the day, etc. What they mean today is a snapshot in time of things that likely varied tremendously, sometimes in major ways, but most of the time just in subtle, difficult to express ways. Many meanings likely lost. Many new meanings gained. It's part of the evolution of something that is complex, that is hard sometimes to describe, that needs slightly different words now and then to encapsulate something new (the glittery mist called "utsuri" that formed in the ji of old Bizen school pieces was something "new" so a word is created. The Yamato-den style of sword making creating what we call a "high shinogi" by deciding to adjust the balance of their swords to make them more robust (slightly thicker at the ridge) but then pulling the shinogi-ji surface back to angle back at the mune ("back of the sword) giving them "correct" balance but allowing for tougher, blades), and on and on. Some words retain a rather specific meaning but many more arrive to cover subtle nuance and without question many times will lose some distinctions, gain new ones, etc. Heck, just read through many of the posts here showing each person's understanding of just what aikido *is* to see how redefinition occurs in real time.

So I suppose I'm just saying something really obvious. And when I started Aikido and got serious about learning more about the history, techniques, names, etc. and started buying up books left and right from other styles not to mention going "outside the box" to play with folk doing stuff other than aikido that was related to aikido, well, I was struck that what we have here is a similar bunch of words that reveal a rich history that evolved within a very short time. Numerous prominent teachers working with things that were loosely defined. And many of those teachers splitting off at different times sometimes working hard to systematize *their* version of the art.

It would be great if one could find a history to show how the terminology can be tied off, arranged, and neatly presented with a fancy bow on top. But it strikes me the odds of that are vanishingly small. This is not to say the discussion is for naught -- it is a great discussion and I've learned a few things. But it strikes me as not that much different than the terminology of the Japanese sword that sometimes has words where differences appear to be random, capricious, and/or sometimes completely baffling.

The drawback here, of course, is that it makes for all sorts of "flights of fancy" for those who are willing to read things in to everything they hear. And sometimes things like that "stick" with some groups making for really frustrating conversations and opinionated, passionate folk getting banned from discussion forums... ;)

And fwiw, one late night in the bar after a sword show I was talking with a rather prominent smith from Japan who was visiting. I was asking questions about a few things and he was interested in some of the "off the beaten track" some western smiths doing Japanese style swords were up to. We were trying to talk about a detail of heat treating and due to language issues it wasn't going all that great. But he laughed and told me that it wasn't really the English/Japanese that was the problem. He said that even in Japan smiths will have to go in to the workshop, fire up the forge, and start hammering steel to convey anything that's really interesting. Even with a robust terminology the words can get in the way of understanding.

So cool thread and interesting discussion. But in the end... Shrug...

Just an observation reading the thread.