does nikyo hurt?

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[ChrisMikk]

Here are two simple (I hope) questions:

I am studying Yoshinkan. We are learning nikajo like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QchlmrPnidA
We are told that nikajo should not be painful in the wrist. This is a difficult effect to produce, but as uke, I have felt times when the only thing I noticed was my hip and knee collapsing--no pain response.

In the past I have felt budoka from different martial arts trying to apply this technique--nikyo, I believe, in Aikikai. I always thought it was supposed to hurt at the wrist, and the problems people always had were in avoiding collapsing the arm.

Does Aikikai try to produce pain at the wrist?

And, in learning Aikikai's nikyo, is collapsing the arm into the body rather producing an effect on uke a problem for students?

Or, in Aikikai, what is the main hurtle for students in learning nikyo?

[grondahl]

Does Aikikai try to produce pain at the wrist?

And, in learning Aikikai's nikyo, is collapsing the arm into the body rather producing an effect on uke a problem for students?

Or, in Aikikai, what is the main hurtle for students in learning nikyo?

Aikikai is an organisation that covers many different styles of aikido, but based on my own experience: No, pain is not an independant goal in nikkyo.

[robin_jet_alt]

That is a difficult and complex question. I think that Nikyo does tend to hurt. It is a wrist lock after all. However, the pain should not be the goal of the technique. What you should be aiming for is a structural collapse of uke.

I have seen and learned variations that don't hurt at all, such as this one by Shishiya sensei.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to7yX7s4j64

I have felt him do this technique, and it definitely works, but it is unconventional, and I definitely consider it to be a variation.

The nikyo I aim for uses the classic nikyo form, but creates the same structural collapse as Shishiya sensei's technique. It hurts, but uke doesn't drop because of the pain, but because of the structural collapse.

As for how it is practiced in Aikikai, there are so many teachers teaching so many different things that it is impossible to say. For instance, Shishiya sensei is technically in the Aikikai, but he has a very unconventional nikyo. I think some people do rely on pain compliance to make this technique work, but I think that is the wrong approach.

[Walter Martindale]

wrist? Forearm? It crosses the radius and ulna and "cranks" each against the other, via "hyper-pronation" and also can apply a torque at the wrist/carpals. Pain avoidance gets more experienced aikido people to move, but pain can cause people who are unfamiliar with the movements to either comply, break, or get really peeved.

[Cliff Judge]

I have really been working hard for awhile to develop a nikkyo that doesn't hurt. I have not had a huge amount of success so far.

I had a very interesting conversation with a Hakko ryu practitioner earlier this year. The gentleman showed me that it is possible to lock a joint without causing pain or causing uke to feel much at all. He locked my wrist softly and then rather than continuing to apply pressure, he locked my elbow softly. Again without continuing to apply pressure he took control of my shoulder and I had to go prone on the mat to deal with it.

I am not very good at feeling how much of a lock I have on different uke's joints at this point, so i am trying to figure that part out. I figure at the end of the day it is about drawing energy from one of my heels, letting it spiral up my body and then into uke's body and back down into them....then a bunch of stuff I haven't figured out yet...(step 3 profit).

A couple years ago Ellis Amdur introduced me to the idea that nikkyo is essentially a general shape of energy... a "gathering" movement of energy, as though you are scooping up armsfull of tall grass and bringing them into your belly. Daito ryu seems to have the same kind of thing going on, with Nikkajo being characterized by a certain kind of spiral movement. It would be neat to be able to do this without overt physical movement at all....just, when someone touches you, they sort of get sucked into these grinding gears of ki.

Well, I'll let you know if I ever figure THAT out. :)

In the meantime, my advice is, pay attention to how much pressure you are applying to the wrist. Learn how to lock the wrist without applying so much pressure that uke feels pain. When you get there, consider how to lock the elbow, also without pain. From there go to the shoulder, or skip the shoulder and go to their center, or skip their shoulder and go to their front foot.

[phitruong]

it all depends on your uke reaction.

the screamer: AAAHHH OH OHH OOO AAAAAHHH ARRGGHHH
the whimper: aaahhhh oooooo eeee eekkk oooooo
the religious: oh god! oh god! that's hurt! oh dear god almighty! oh god!
the masochist: oh that hurt! please don't stop! more! more! hurt me more!
the taichi practitioner: hah! your old man playing flute technique is poorly execute! i will counter it with the single whip and follow it with double whipping for good measure!
the kyokushin karateka: ha! my wrist fused to my forearm, you can't do that to me. now eat my fused knuckle fits!
the mime: not saying much but trying to put nikyo on his own foot
the catholics: holy mary mother of god! i have sin. please punish me some more!
west coast aikidoka: pease man! like like lighten up dude!
east coast aikidoka: you call that a nikyo! who's your teacher! i am going kick his ass!
midwest aikidoka: you mind help me with the other bucket to bail this flood out?!! while at it, you mind grab the snow shovel too?
ki aikidoka: your weight is not underside! you haven't extend your ki! and your point is sticking out!
the taekwondoist: while you put on nikyo, i'd just bring up both of my feet and do some aerial manuever around your head! and then scratching my nose with my toe!
the watcher of too many Ip Man movies: i will hit you repeatedly and keep hitting while you put on nikyo! then i will bong sao and lap sao you! then i bong you some more and laugh at you! hah hah hah!

[lbb]

"Nikkyo should not hurt" is different than "pain is not the goal of nikkyo".

[Jonathan]

I try to do nikyo so that it both hurts and locks. Seems to work well for me...

[graham christian]

I would say you should do it the way you are taught until you get very good at it and only then wonder about how others do it. That's discipline.

If you already are going to keep to that discipline before experimenting with other ways then there is no problem asking.

Ultimately I would say a really good nikkyo doesn't have pain as a part of it but that also is partly down to the uke being experienced.

Personally I can say I can do it with or without and in different ways. I would also say that the whole trick to nikkyo is maybe 10% to do with the physical mechanics and 90% to do with realizing it's a sword cut.

Peace.G.

[Walter Martindale]

I try to do nikyo so that it both hurts and locks. Seems to work well for me...

"Like"
(Flashback to K-sensei and his applications... locked, hurting.... um... locked, hurting... um.. am I not tapping enough? Ah - whew...)

[SeaGrass]

it all depends on your uke reaction.

the screamer: AAAHHH OH OHH OOO AAAAAHHH ARRGGHHH
the whimper: aaahhhh oooooo eeee eekkk oooooo
the religious: oh god! oh god! that's hurt! oh dear god almighty! oh god!
the masochist: oh that hurt! please don't stop! more! more! hurt me more!
the taichi practitioner: hah! your old man playing flute technique is poorly execute! i will counter it with the single whip and follow it with double whipping for good measure!
the kyokushin karateka: ha! my wrist fused to my forearm, you can't do that to me. now eat my fused knuckle fits!
the mime: not saying much but trying to put nikyo on his own foot
the catholics: holy mary mother of god! i have sin. please punish me some more!
west coast aikidoka: pease man! like like lighten up dude!
east coast aikidoka: you call that a nikyo! who's your teacher! i am going kick his ass!
midwest aikidoka: you mind help me with the other bucket to bail this flood out?!! while at it, you mind grab the snow shovel too?
ki aikidoka: your weight is not underside! you haven't extend your ki! and your point is sticking out!
the taekwondoist: while you put on nikyo, i'd just bring up both of my feet and do some aerial manuever around your head! and then scratching my nose with my toe!
the watcher of too many Ip Man movies: i will hit you repeatedly and keep hitting while you put on nikyo! then i will bong sao and lap sao you! then i bong you some more and laugh at you! hah hah hah!

:D You forgot to mention MMA, Koryu, Nishio...

[JW]

Nishio...

"We used to do it that way, but we haven't for some time.. let me show you what really works!"

MMA...

"Ouch, but you'll never achieve that in real life."

i am excited to read Cliff's description of Ellis' description. I feel similarly-- in nikkyo you subsume uke from above. That doesn't require pain, but it should be physically compelling in some way. Pain is just a "cheap" way to make it compelling.
I've had teachers openly state they are trying to have it not hurt. But I've never had teachers say pain = wrong.

Also, I think it generally should hurt if uke is fighting it-- but tori can try to diffuse the fight instead of letting uke hurt himself.

[Carsten Möllering]

We explicetly try do nikyo without giving pain to the partner.

... nikkyo is essentially a general shape of energy... a "gathering" movement of energy, as though you are scooping up armsfull of tall grass and bringing them into your belly.
... a certain kind of spiral movement.
This sounds familiar.

This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ3AKzd6FPU&feature=player_detailpage#t=61s) may give a little idea of how it works. Even if the nikyo omote shown here is done with contact at the shoulder of tori it works the same way when you do it more related to the form of ikkyo omote.

As far as I understand it by now, the "gathering" or closing in nikyo omote is done by closing kua, shoulder nests and spine.
The "spiral movement" or opening in nikyo ura is done by opening shoulder nest, spine and kua.

Whether nikyo is worked by pain or "only" by contact without using or producing pain to my experience is not a question of aikikai, yoshinkan, ... .
Our shihan is a well known teacher of aikikai hombu. no pain
The aikikai shihan in charge for germany employs pain doing nikyo and emphasize it's use a lot.

[robin_jet_alt]

As far as I understand it by now, the "gathering" or closing in nikyo omote is done by closing kua, shoulder nests and spine.
The "spiral movement" or opening in nikyo ura is done by opening shoulder nest, spine and kua.



Excellent description as long as people already know what you are talking about. I'm not sure how many people know what you mean by opening and closing spine, kua etc... Then again, it's really hard to explain, and I'm not sure how I would explain it in writing either :disgust:

[Cliff Judge]

We explicetly try do nikyo without giving pain to the partner.

This sounds familiar.

This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ3AKzd6FPU&feature=player_detailpage#t=61s) may give a little idea of how it works. Even if the nikyo omote shown here is done with contact at the shoulder of tori it works the same way when you do it more related to the form of ikkyo omote.

As far as I understand it by now, the "gathering" or closing in nikyo omote is done by closing kua, shoulder nests and spine.
The "spiral movement" or opening in nikyo ura is done by opening shoulder nest, spine and kua.

Whether nikyo is worked by pain or "only" by contact without using or producing pain to my experience is not a question of aikikai, yoshinkan, ... .
Our shihan is a well known teacher of aikikai hombu. no pain
The aikikai shihan in charge for germany employs pain doing nikyo and emphasize it's use a lot.

What an unexpectedly great explanation of "the sword that gives life"! Or perhaps in this case "the hand that gives life" - Katsujinte?? Endo Sensei doesn't practice Shinkage ryu does he?

OMG that is totally sweet.

[Mathias]

Have a look at this video, Shishiya sensei talks about doing nikyo without causing pain to your partner.

http://youtu.be/SeyYDW_XA6w

[MRoh]

The aikikai shihan in charge for germany employs pain doing nikyo and emphasize it's use a lot.

Hello Carsten,

this understanding of Asai senseis nikkyo-pratice ist not correct.
What he does is not about pain. The meaning is to learn to accept incoming forces, and to absorb them in your body. To pratice the wrists makes them soft, and you have to practice until you are able to take nages energy that brings you to the ground (if you are soft enough to prone position), where you can reverse ore open the spiral and escape, or do kaeshi waza, for exemple sankyo .

As an application nikkyo can be very fast, and before you feel any pain you are shocked, but you are on the ground already.

[ChrisMikk]

Thanks for all the responses.

I was not looking to experiment with other styles, just interested to hear how the technique is conceived and taught in other schools.

I can't follow the more esoteric descriptions here, but good for anyone who can.

Learn how to lock the wrist without applying so much pressure that uke feels pain. When you get there, consider how to lock the elbow, also without pain. From there go to the shoulder, or skip the shoulder and go to their center, or skip their shoulder and go to their front foot.

Yes, this is what we are practicing in the kenshusei course. As far as I can tell so far, avoiding wrist pain and going for connection with the hip, knee, or foot involves not trying to apply a technique at the wrist. Once you grasp uke's hand and forearm, if you keep good posture and just slowly lower your center, you can force uke down slowly without pain without moving your own hands, arms, or body much at all. This is maybe a very Yoshinkan way of looking at it, though.

After having felt both painful and non-painful versions of nikajo, I would say that while pain compliance might be an effective self-defense technique, the other is probably better aikido.

I'm not sure I buy the "pain is a secondary effect of the technique" line.

[Mert Gambito]

I had a very interesting conversation with a Hakko ryu practitioner earlier this year. The gentleman showed me that it is possible to lock a joint without causing pain or causing uke to feel much at all. He locked my wrist softly and then rather than continuing to apply pressure, he locked my elbow softly. Again without continuing to apply pressure he took control of my shoulder and I had to go prone on the mat to deal with it.
The structural alignment used in Hakkoryu is different from that used for nikkyo / nikkajo to which I've been exposed in aikido. Hakkoryu embraces inducement of pain, but puts a premium on applying wrist locks in manners that control the whole body from the onset.

[Cliff Judge]

The structural alignment used in Hakkoryu is different from that used for nikkyo / nikkajo to which I've been exposed in aikido. Hakkoryu embraces inducement of pain, but puts a premium on applying wrist locks in manners that control the whole body from the onset.

It did seem to me that they went from the outside in with their locks - wrist, elbow, shoulder - in a chain; it seemed distinct from the concept of going for the whole body, or through the whole body, which is how aiki arts work in my limited experience.

The practitioner I was working with was most likely being nice to me as he let me take the option of going to the mat and tapping before he made it hurt.

[Conrad Gus]

Nikkyo hurts.

It doesn't need to hurt to work. If you have highly conditioned wrists, it doesn't hurt, in which case nage needs to have good technique (as described by many posters in this thread).

Asai Sensei (Germany) took a lot of ukemi for O Sensei. I'm pretty sure I remember him describing that O Sensei's nikkyo hurt. A lot. He encouraged us to do lots of nikkyo ukemi to condition our wrists, really going into the painful part to stretch out and strengthen the joints (don't be a wimp and tap out before the pain comes on).

Bottom line: unless you are already doing kaeshiwaza, if an accomplished practitioner puts on a strong nikkyo at full speed . . . nikkyo hurts.

[Carsten Möllering]

Nikkyo hurts.
...
It doesn't need to hurt to work.
So, if it is possible that nikyo works whithout hurting (Do I get you rigth: Is this your understanding?) what does "nikyo hurts" mean then?
If you can controll and move uke without using pain but "only" technique, then what is the part of hurting or pain: What are they for if they are not needed?

I experience that it does not depend on uke's skills wether nikyo hurts or not but on tori's way to apply nikyo. Inflicting pain to my experience is a surplus that can be used additionaly. Like in yonkyo.

... really going into the painful part to stretch out and strengthen the joints ...
Thank you, and thank you Markus for this explanation!

So this a practice that aims to refine the body of uke? To get the "dust out of the joints" as o sensei called it?
So when students of Asai sensei told me, that "nikyo has to hurt" this was about uke's way of receiving nikyo and not about tori applying nikyo?

... if an accomplished practitioner puts on a strong nikkyo at full speed ... . . . nikkyo hurts
I don't understand this statement:
What is a "strong" nikkyo? If "strong" implies to attack uke's joint: Sure. That will hurt.
If "strong" means to clearly control and move uke: No. That doesn't need to hurt.

My experiences with "strong nikyo at full speed" of "accomplished practioners" tell me that your last sentence seems to be true only in a certain paradigm of practice. Actually receiving a fast nikyo from Endo senseiwas one of the key moments that made me change my way of practice.

[MRoh]

So this a practice that aims to refine the body of uke? To get the "dust out of the joints" as o sensei called it?
So when students of Asai sensei told me, that "nikyo has to hurt" this was about uke's way of receiving nikyo and not about tori applying nikyo?


Yes. I think it primarily is a practice for uke. If you feel pain, you just have to practice more.
One aspect is to get the dust out of the joints. Another aspect concerns the need to be able to absorb any affecting forces. Thats why we practice nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo a lot.
But I never tell people that nikyo "has to hurt". I tell them if it hurts, they have to practice more, so that they someday come to enjoy the feeling as "massage".

[graham christian]

I prefer the statement 'Nikkyo shouldn't hurt'. This puts emphasis both on the doer and the done to.

In my experience students find the ones that don't hurt more powerful, inescapable and leaving them humble yet bright and happy.

Peace.G.

[PeterR]

What can I say - it satisfies my inner sadist.

[Keith Larman]

To add to the chorus...

"Nikkyo should not hurt" is different than "pain is not the goal of nikkyo".

Ditto.

With nikyo my goal is generally a structural control. Like most things we do. Sometimes it hurts. Sometimes I might even want it to hurt to emphasize a point (Peter R's inner sadist). It just depends on a larger context that is itself rather resistant to absolute and simplistic discussion on-line (and I don't mean that to sound dismissive, simply that it "ain't so simple"). Shrug.

[chillzATL]

I've never felt anyone in aikido who could move/control me with a nikyo without pain or the notion that pain was just around the corner. I've found plenty of people who were skilled in their application to the point that they could catch me right at the edge of pain compliance and move me and that can almost make you think that there's no pain, but that also skirts pretty close to the edge of over-compliance too. I have felt some people outside of aikido who could, in very low pressure testing situations, lock me up and move me without pain or really even locking me up and I have no doubt there are some people out there who could do that in higher resistance situations. I do agree that pain isn't the goal of nikyo, but I have my doubts about the efficacy of the mystical "pain free nikyo" in the majority of aikido these days. It skirts too close to over-compliance for my tastes.

[Belt_Up]

The best nikyos I've felt induced collapse. There was no pain, just a switch flicking from off to on, and I went from stood up to not. Nikyo seems to present the body with a moment of peak pressure that convinces your body to try and get lower/underneath it. Pain isn't part of the equation, unless the duration increases and the pressure decreases. I suppose this could be done accidentally or intentionally. A lot of beginners have nikyos that cause a fair amount of pain, but don't take your balance.

[Keith Larman]

The best nikyos I've felt induced collapse. There was no pain, just a switch flicking from off to on, and I went from stood up to not. Nikyo seems to present the body with a moment of peak pressure that convinces your body to try and get lower/underneath it. Pain isn't part of the equation, unless the duration increases and the pressure decreases. I suppose this could be done accidentally or intentionally. A lot of beginners have nikyos that cause a fair amount of pain, but don't take your balance.
The question is whether that "induced collapse" is a developed "Pavlovian" response to having enough done, um, with "feeling" prior. How many have shown a brand new student a nikkyo only to have them stare at you? In pain. Eyes watering. But completely oblivious to how to go down and relieve the pressure on their wrist.

In other words, an experience person manipulating your structure through the wrist such that you get the "right" feeling meaning you take the "proper" ukemi at that point. The question is whether you "really" had to go down due to the structural feel *or* if you simply feel *both* the structural manipulation ("correct" feeling) and you simultaneously realize the next feeling coming is going to be the pain. then eventually you know the structural feeling and react to that prior to actually having to move? Conditioned responses are by definition automatic and rather instantaneous and feel like they were not intentional.

[Keith Larman]

To add to the chorus...

Ditto.

With nikyo my goal is generally a structural control. Like most things we do. Sometimes it hurts. Sometimes I might even want it to hurt to emphasize a point (Peter R's inner sadist). It just depends on a larger context that is itself rather resistant to absolute and simplistic discussion on-line (and I don't mean that to sound dismissive, simply that it "ain't so simple"). Shrug.

I should modify this a bit and say that the structural aspect is one that if it is fought against tends to result in pain, especially in those who don't know how to work against it.

[Conrad Gus]

My experiences with "strong nikyo at full speed" of "accomplished practioners" tell me that your last sentence seems to be true only in a certain paradigm of practice. Actually receiving a fast nikyo from Endo senseiwas one of the key moments that made me change my way of practice.

I'd like to experience that some day. The fastest, most powerful nikkyo moments that I have felt all felt like being hit by a bolt of lightning. When it was over, my wrist was fine, but it was pretty intense at the moment!

It sounds like Endo sensei does something quite different. I get to train with students of his from time to time -- I'll see if I can get a chance to feel it.

[ChrisMikk]

The best nikyos I've felt induced collapse. There was no pain, just a switch flicking from off to on, and I went from stood up to not. Nikyo seems to present the body with a moment of peak pressure that convinces your body to try and get lower/underneath it. Pain isn't part of the equation, unless the duration increases and the pressure decreases.

This is my experience of nikajo in the Mugenjuku dojo here. There is non-painful pressure starting in your arm and all of a sudden your knee collapses. This is not in every nikajo applied here, but in some. It feels incredibly powerful because with pain, you always have the idea in the back of your head that if you could stand the pain, the technique wouldn't work. But this collapse seems to happen as a non-conscious reaction.

On the other hand...

The question is whether that "induced collapse" is a developed "Pavlovian" response to having enough done, um, with "feeling" prior. How many have shown a brand new student a nikkyo only to have them stare at you? In pain. Eyes watering. But completely oblivious to how to go down and relieve the pressure on their wrist.

This may also be true. I'm new, so it's not a Pavlovian response, but once you see what you are supposed to do, it changes the equation of what happens during the technique. In a similar way, there are other techniques in which if uke doesn't cooperate, he may end up with a broken arm. Does that mean that the "real" aikido needs uke's compliance or that the "real" aikido results in a broken arm?

I don't know the answer to that. However, it is instructive that (1) in another post (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20861), there are several anecdotes relate nikyo with pain and (2) in this thread we have the report of someone receiving nikyo from Ueshiba with pain. Also, in Aikido Jinsei, Shioda Gozo relates Ueshiba refusing to perform in front of the imperial family by saying that "real" aikido always results in the death of the opponent.

Yet again on the other hand, contra Keith Larman, I have demonstrated nikajo to someone who doesn't do martial arts and the person went down instantaneously like an experienced training partner. This person had intense pain (not my intention--I wasn't even expecting the technique to work!), but their automatic response to the pain was to try to escape in exactly the kihon form for uke. So who knows.

[Cady Goldfield]

This is my experience of nikajo in the Mugenjuku dojo here. There is non-painful pressure starting in your arm and all of a sudden your knee collapses. This is not in every nikajo applied here, but in some. It feels incredibly powerful because with pain, you always have the idea in the back of your head that if you could stand the pain, the technique wouldn't work. But this collapse seems to happen as a non-conscious reaction.

Yes. When nage is controlling uke's entire mechanical structure, instead of simply twisting a limb (which is simply pain compliance), nikkyo/nikkajo should be painless. You can choose to apply pain, but that is an additional action, and, IMO, completely unnecessary.

[Mert Gambito]

It did seem to me that they went from the outside in with their locks - wrist, elbow, shoulder - in a chain; it seemed distinct from the concept of going for the whole body, or through the whole body, which is how aiki arts work in my limited experience.

The practitioner I was working with was most likely being nice to me as he let me take the option of going to the mat and tapping before he made it hurt.
There are around 10 waza in Hakkoryu's nidan-ge that present an equivalent to nikkyo. Some are outside in, from outward appearances -- but the waza are designed to move from under and over while in, producing kuzushi before the lock is even set. This is why the pain is / can be a secondary motivator: the joints are locked all the way through the uke's frame, the uke is already off balance, so sayonara.

[aiki-jujutsuka]

There are around 10 waza in Hakkoryu's nidan-ge that present an equivalent to nikkyo. Some are outside in, from outward appearances -- but the waza are designed to move from under and over while in, producing kuzushi before the lock is even set. This is why the pain is / can be a secondary motivator: the joints are locked all the way through the uke's frame, the uke is already off balance, so sayonara.

I was practising nidan waza last night in training for my next grading, a mixture of suware and tachi waza. One of my sensei's performed shuto jime (sword hand) on me and I just collapsed in a heap on the mat. There was some initial pain but then my knees gave way and before I knew it I was crumpled on the floor. At the end of the day pain shouldn't be the primary motivator because without taking kuzushi the wrist locks won't work. If someone strong really locked out on you and you didn't take balance first, you're never going to successfully apply nidan before your attacker punches you in the head. Taking posture is paramount and then the wrist lock will work, locking up the frame producing compliance.

[Richard Stevens]

Having received nikkyo/nidan from both high level Aikido and Hakkoryu practitioners I am confident in saying the Aikido nikkyo was more successful in controlling my "body" while the Hakkoryu nidan simply hurt more.

[Chris Li]

Shioda mentioned at times that Ueshiba's Nikyo didn't hurt - rather, it unhinged the knees. I think that the Yoshinkan tends to follow this method (if they can), which fits in with the OP's experience (at least, that was my experience with the Yoshinkan).

Best,

Chris

[Jonathan]

Kawahara Shihan many times applied nikyo to me and every time it both hurt like blazes and locked me up completely. I couldn't move once he had fully applied nikyo, not because of the pain, but because he had manipulated me into total immobility. This is the kind of nikyo I work for. Certainly, I don't think anyone should feel badly about having a nikyo that both locks and causes pain to uke.

[ChrisMikk]

Shioda mentioned at times that Ueshiba's Nikyo didn't hurt - rather, it unhinged the knees. I think that the Yoshinkan tends to follow this method (if they can), which fits in with the OP's experience (at least, that was my experience with the Yoshinkan).

Best,

Chris

Thanks. What are your sources for Shioda anecdotes? They are definitely teaching a non-painful nikajo here in Kyoto, but sometimes it degrades into painful nikajo. Especially during hajime geiko.

[Chris Li]

Thanks. What are your sources for Shioda anecdotes? They are definitely teaching a non-painful nikajo here in Kyoto, but sometimes it degrades into painful nikajo. Especially during hajime geiko.

From my time hanging out with one of his direct students - but I think that I've seen it in writing, although I can't recall where at the moment...

Best,

Chris

[Helle Buvik]

The question is whether that "induced collapse" is a developed "Pavlovian" response to having enough done, um, with "feeling" prior. How many have shown a brand new student a nikkyo only to have them stare at you? In pain. Eyes watering. But completely oblivious to how to go down and relieve the pressure on their wrist.

In other words, an experience person manipulating your structure through the wrist such that you get the "right" feeling meaning you take the "proper" ukemi at that point. The question is whether you "really" had to go down due to the structural feel *or* if you simply feel *both* the structural manipulation ("correct" feeling) and you simultaneously realize the next feeling coming is going to be the pain. then eventually you know the structural feeling and react to that prior to actually having to move? Conditioned responses are by definition automatic and rather instantaneous and feel like they were not intentional.

I'd say that at it's best, the pain is entierly unnessesary. my experience come from training with someone that did not at all react to, or seem to feel pain in the ways other people feel it. His body would react to exhaustion but wouldnt give any pain signal, and we had to warn guests to the dojo to be carefull with his shoulders in most of the locks because there was no pain to warn him to tap out.

Nikkyo that relies on pain complianse does not work on him at all but I've still seen people that could make his feet give out under him every time so there has to be something other than pain working there. It's a lot harder to do, and I'd be very lucky to manage to do working nikkyo without causing pain one out of a hundred tries :D

Helle.

[Walter Martindale]

I'd say that at it's best, the pain is entierly unnessesary.

Helle.

Hmm. If... and it's a BIG if... If you're "out there" and needing to do nikyo "for real" - you'll do whatever the heck is needed to put the other person down. In an "out there" situation, if we're even able to actually put a nikyo on someone in a real life-and-death fight, the purpose would be to break the arm and put the person out of action. We TRAIN to move either to avoid feeling the pain (wimps) or to tolerate some pain before complying because the body's all seized up due to the positioning. We don't train to break our partner's arms because we need to practice with someone and if we bust them up, we don't got nobody to practice with. In the "real world" whatever that is, attacks are nasty, aimed at killing, and we can't afford to give up anything in making "uke" comply... Bust the arm, take the knife away from him (usually - if we're lucky) and cut through the triceps and biceps so he can't use that arm any more - or shove the knife through the foramen magnum (in science class with frogs this is called "pithing"). THEN call for a lawyer to help stay out of prison.

All that, of course, happens (maybe) AFTER we've tried to talk the attacker out of fighting, After we've run away, and AFTER the SOB has caught up to us with foul intent. Or... because we've spent so much time forgetting that it's a MARTIAL art, we get ourselves stuck full of holes.

It's a MARTIAL ART ffs.

[graham christian]

Hmm. If... and it's a BIG if... If you're "out there" and needing to do nikyo "for real" - you'll do whatever the heck is needed to put the other person down. In an "out there" situation, if we're even able to actually put a nikyo on someone in a real life-and-death fight, the purpose would be to break the arm and put the person out of action. We TRAIN to move either to avoid feeling the pain (wimps) or to tolerate some pain before complying because the body's all seized up due to the positioning. We don't train to break our partner's arms because we need to practice with someone and if we bust them up, we don't got nobody to practice with. In the "real world" whatever that is, attacks are nasty, aimed at killing, and we can't afford to give up anything in making "uke" comply... Bust the arm, take the knife away from him (usually - if we're lucky) and cut through the triceps and biceps so he can't use that arm any more - or shove the knife through the foramen magnum (in science class with frogs this is called "pithing"). THEN call for a lawyer to help stay out of prison.

All that, of course, happens (maybe) AFTER we've tried to talk the attacker out of fighting, After we've run away, and AFTER the SOB has caught up to us with foul intent. Or... because we've spent so much time forgetting that it's a MARTIAL art, we get ourselves stuck full of holes.

It's a MARTIAL ART ffs.

Or just get good at nikyo. Then no need for busted arms etc. This is Aikido. ;)

Peace.G.

[Walter Martindale]

Or just get good at nikyo. Then no need for busted arms etc. This is Aikido. ;)

Peace.G.

Yeah, I get that. At training we need to keep our partners healthy while we train to be very good at Aikido.

Kawahara sensei, late shihan for Canada used to tell stories about how even the best dojo sensei weren't "good enough" to use aikido for real out in the world - telling stories about sensei or others who'd get robbed and/or killed in incidents where - had they been able to actually "do" the aikido they'd been teaching, they'd still be alive.

The training - if we/you treat aikido as if it's a martial art - has to have some connection to whatever reality is, or it's "exercise with pajamas and baggy black pants".

We had an Aussie fellow teaching at the dojo I used to visit in Christchurch - he'd beat the crap out of uke in knife defenses (without actually damaging uke - pain yes, damage no) - a little bit apologetically, but he'd close it off by saying, "Yeah, it hurts and I'm a bit rough on him but he did attack me with a knife." Kawahara was delighted when people were thrown around with great vigour but without injury. Masuda would say "protect uke" - somewhere in there is a balance, because (I've said this before) we need people for practice, but we need to practice stuff that is potentially very dangerous. Izumi, in the brief time I was training with him, would teach us stuff that was off the curriculum, but that he said had kept him alive (and showed me the scars on his forearms from practical experiences).

So to my mind, if we're doing this as a "martial art" we need to ensure that we cover as many bases as we can, and in the end, do what we can to avoid ever having to use it outside of the dojo. My own situation is that I'm slow, old, and limping on both legs for various reasons, and hoping to get back to practicing at some stage.

Am I good at nikyo? Not as good as I'd like to be, better than I used to be. Does it cause pain? Sometimes - more with beginners even when I'm being gentle - less with more experienced people even though they're moving quite dynamically.
Cheers,
W

[graham christian]

Yeah, I agree we have to remember it's a martial art. Most stories from whoever, whether shihan or otherwise I take with a pinch of salt if I see they are based on fear. The answer is very rarely being harsh to make real for most times that is very unreal in my experience.

Simple understanding is the key as far as I am concerned. Correct understanding leads to correct application. Incorrect understanding leads to all kinds of weird and wonderful methods based on "what ifs" and "real life" and "martial" and "past" .........all too complex.

Just know how good you are at nikkyo with reality and you then know how much more you need to learn. End result is when you are very good at it and confident with it no matter who, where or when. Simple really.

Nikkyo hurts mainly to the degree someone isn't very good at it bottom line. Next in importance is that it hurts due to some people like giving pain unfortunately. I would say in my experience that's the second most common reason. Still, that's just as bad and actually useless. Good for ego though.

Peace.G.

[Jonathan]

Nikkyo hurts mainly to the degree someone isn't very good at it bottom line.

Oh? Why is that? Why does pain from nikyo=bad nikyo?

Next in importance is that it hurts due to some people like giving pain unfortunately. I would say in my experience that's the second most common reason. Still, that's just as bad and actually useless. Good for ego though.

Again, why is applying a painful but effective nikyo lock "bad and actually useless"?

[graham christian]

Oh? Why is that? Why does pain from nikyo=bad nikyo?

Again, why is applying a painful but effective nikyo lock "bad and actually useless"?

Pain is o.k. if you understand what it is and when it is o.k.

First false assumption is that pain equals good control. No, pain is bad control.

Effective equals what? Most people stop at that. Shame. There is good effective and there is bad effective.

Pain is useful in training only so that the one receiving pain can learn to 'handle' it rather than be scared of it or even moved by it. That is it's only use really. To rely on giving it in order to control is the way to a future wake up and failure. So taking the future into account that makes it useless as it prevents you getting to a good control that really works in the future.

The 'lock' in nikkyo is secondary in effectiveness to the true technique.

All the above is tempered only by the fact that along the journey of practicing control techniques they will in the early and maybe mid way along the process of refinement be quite painful but that still doesn't equal good nikkyo, only equals practicing nikkyo.

So I repeat good is painless, a joy to do and a joy to receive. Takes extra discipline.

Peace.G.

[Jonathan]

Pain is o.k. if you understand what it is and when it is o.k.

I'm afraid this amounts to saying something without actually saying anything. This statement is so vague as to be meaningless.

First false assumption is that pain equals good control. No, pain is bad control.

You've only just made a statement here. You haven't offered any rationale for it. Do you have one? Why is it a false assumption that pain equals good control. Please note that I didn't actually say this. I asked why painful nikyo=bad nikyo. I have felt very painful nikyo that was very effective in controlling me and locking me into immobility. Is this bad nikyo? If so, why?

There is good effective and there is bad effective.

If nikyo is effective with pain why is it bad?

Pain is useful in training only so that the one receiving pain can learn to 'handle' it rather than be scared of it or even moved by it.

Well, this is one perspective on the issue of pain in training. Do you think everyone should hold your view? If so, why?

That is it's only use really. To rely on giving it in order to control is the way to a future wake up and failure.

Oh? Why?

So taking the future into account that makes it useless as it prevents you getting to a good control that really works in the future.

I have been totally controlled by my late shihan's nikyo and it was very painful! His nikyo "really worked" and it hurt like heck!

The 'lock' in nikkyo is secondary in effectiveness to the true technique.

Which is what, exactly?

All the above is tempered only by the fact that along the journey of practicing control techniques they will in the early and maybe mid way along the process of refinement be quite painful but that still doesn't equal good nikkyo, only equals practicing nikkyo.

You haven't yet offered any solid justification for what you're saying. So far, all you've done is make assertions.

So I repeat good is painless, a joy to do and a joy to receive. Takes extra discipline.

Is this the sum total of your reasoning behind saying that a painful nikyo is bad? I hope not. Certainly, if avoiding pain in training is one's goal, then you might be right. But if one is seeking to be martially effective, I don't see that painless necessarily equates to effective.

[graham christian]

I'm afraid this amounts to saying something without actually saying anything. This statement is so vague as to be meaningless.

You've only just made a statement here. You haven't offered any rationale for it. Do you have one? Why is it a false assumption that pain equals good control. Please note that I didn't actually say this. I asked why painful nikyo=bad nikyo. I have felt very painful nikyo that was very effective in controlling me and locking me into immobility. Is this bad nikyo? If so, why?

If nikyo is effective with pain why is it bad?

Well, this is one perspective on the issue of pain in training. Do you think everyone should hold your view? If so, why?

Oh? Why?

I have been totally controlled by my late shihan's nikyo and it was very painful! His nikyo "really worked" and it hurt like heck!

Which is what, exactly?

You haven't yet offered any solid justification for what you're saying. So far, all you've done is make assertions.

Is this the sum total of your reasoning behind saying that a painful nikyo is bad? I hope not. Certainly, if avoiding pain in training is one's goal, then you might be right. But if one is seeking to be martially effective, I don't see that painless necessarily equates to effective.

Wow, a lot of questions. Assertions? Yes. I admit they are my assertions. If you read what I said there is no 'avoidance of pain' included and in fact quite the opposite for I pointed out how it is useful in order to learn how to deal with it.

So lets start with assertions. I assert what I said to be true. So you can take it that I am saying that's the basic view to start from. So if one throws away all other considerations first or at least puts them to the side for a moment we may then be able to proceed to reasoning behind said assertions. We may also see that some reasoning has also already been offered.

You ask why painful nikkyo is bad nikkyo. Well very fundamentally pain is not good. So I ask you to look at pain. What is it?

Generally it is a flag, an indication something is not good. Be it a pain in the belly, head or wherever it is a flag telling you something is wrong, something needs addressing. If you are sawing a piece of wood and feel pain in your finger you stop for it tells you something is amiss. Carry on and you will maybe lose your finger. So there is the first piece of rationale. Pain equals something ain't good.

Now you no doubt have heard the expression no pain no gain which tends to glorify pain. Well rather that just jump to the conclusion that equals pain is good it is best to understand what that type of pain is. In body building or weight training it is muscle fibres being broken. So if you understand that then you can see the mechanism involved in increasing muscle mass 'quickly' and understand whay you will feel it.

Next we come to an even more basic to do with pain albeit venturing into the spiritual to a degree. Pain is resistance. This is also more pertinent to the best understanding of what I said above and also to the art of Aikido itself for those who take it seriously in my opinion.

So non resistance leads to no pain. Therefor it is good for uke to practice, to take the opportunity to practice the art of non resistance when receiving such things as nikkyo and they will find, if taught properly, what I say is true.

So, once discovering how non resistance handles pain one can then see that this strange thing called non resistance should be practiced at both ends ie: by the uke and by the nage. A nikkyo done with non resistance therefor gives no pain.

These are fundamental principles extant in Aikido. One of the 'magics' inherent in the proper training of Aikido. So my rationale says that given non resistance is fundamental to Aikido and it gives no pain then those techniques done which include it are good and those without it are not.

Therefor you can have a painful full blown 'inescapable' nikkyo done to you and believe it's good but I say it cannot be. Effective.... yes, if you don't know how to non resist it.

Many people may have been totally controlled by painful this or that and so are led to believe that is good and indeed ultimate. Far be it from the case my friend.

I have met many whose eyes go wide in disbelief when their 'painful' technique doesn't work. Every time bar none it was due to what they believed regarding what they were doing and every time bar none they did believe that pain had a major part to play in the making of the technique work. Thus for them it was at that time a dangerous belief. A bad one.

So apart from my rationale I offer my personal experience for that is all I can. Non resistance is a hard (soft ha, ha) thing to learn but is very real and part of this fine art. I would say it's good to learn it and bad not to, it's good to practice it and bad not to.

There is nothing more painful than certain pressure points. I have found that applying non resistance to even those works.

So far be it for me to say why said teacher used pain to demonstrate a technique at a particular time with a particular student for there may have been a specific reason. However I have met some who considered it normal and indeed necessary and in more than one case to extreme. Alas.

Peace.G.

[Jonathan]

So lets start with assertions. I assert what I said to be true. So you can take it that I am saying that's the basic view to start from.

For you, perhaps, but the point of my questions was to highlight that you need a justification for why this should be the basic view from which you start.

You ask why painful nikkyo is bad nikkyo. Well very fundamentally pain is not good. So I ask you to look at pain. What is it?

Generally it is a flag, an indication something is not good. Be it a pain in the belly, head or wherever it is a flag telling you something is wrong, something needs addressing. If you are sawing a piece of wood and feel pain in your finger you stop for it tells you something is amiss. Carry on and you will maybe lose your finger. So there is the first piece of rationale. Pain equals something ain't good.

But this fact actually suggests that pain is valuable. Without pain one would be unaware that one was sawing off one's finger. If one did a lot of sawing of wood, one could, in the absence of the sensation of pain, potentially lose a lot of fingers! Pain, then, is a good thing since it tells us that something injurious is happening to us and we ought to act to prevent the injury from continuing.

In any case, you haven't yet established why pain in the application of the technique is bad. All you've done so far is explain the obvious: pain indicates that something injurious is occurring. I still don't see that when applying nikyo painfully to someone I do the lock badly. I want uke to understand as the lock is applied that "something ain't good" and that if he does not yield to the lock what "ain't good" is only going to get worse.

Now you no doubt have heard the expression no pain no gain which tends to glorify pain. Well rather that just jump to the conclusion that equals pain is good it is best to understand what that type of pain is. In body building or weight training it is muscle fibres being broken. So if you understand that then you can see the mechanism involved in increasing muscle mass 'quickly' and understand whay you will feel it.

So, you're saying here that the pain of intense physical exercise is not a bad thing because it yields increases in muscle mass and strength? But this implies that not all pain is bad, that pain actually may signal something ultimately positive is occurring. This doesn't seem to me to help establish your view that pain in nikyo is always a bad thing...

Next we come to an even more basic to do with pain albeit venturing into the spiritual to a degree. Pain is resistance. This is also more pertinent to the best understanding of what I said above and also to the art of Aikido itself for those who take it seriously in my opinion.

This is rather confusing. Are you saying "Pain is resistance" is a spiritual truth? If so, how, exactly?

And why should Aikido be a spiritual endeavour? Why is this the view of those who are "taking it seriously"? My late shihan took his Aikido very seriously but I never once in the twenty-some years I knew him ever heard him speak of the spirituality of Aikido. I don't, then, see that serious Aikido must be spiritual.

So non resistance leads to no pain.

But this is precisely why pain in nikyo is useful: it encourages non-resistance on the part of uke.

So, once discovering how non resistance handles pain one can then see that this strange thing called non resistance should be practiced at both ends ie: by the uke and by the nage. A nikkyo done with non resistance therefor gives no pain.

I'm afraid you aren't making much sense here. You say that pain is important in discovering how not to resist but this means one must receive pain in order to make such a discovery. But in the context of Aikido training this suggests that Aikido technique ought to be painful so that uke might learn non-resistance. You've said, though, that painful technique is not good technique. Why then should nage perform painful technique on uke? Doing so, in your view, is to practice bad technique. Do you see the glaring problem in this? I do.

You haven't offered any explanation for how discovering non-resistance through pain leads to the understanding that non-resistance should be practiced by both uke and nage. If non-resistance is related to experiencing pain, are you saying nage should be in pain while practicing technique? Surely not. But this is the impression your words are giving.

Your rationale above seems to be:

1. Experiencing pain leads to an understanding of non-resistance.
2. Understanding non-resistance leads to understanding that both uke and nage should practice non-resistance.
3. Therefore, nikyo should not be applied painfully.

This is a glaring non-sequitur. Your conclusion does not clearly issue from your premises.

So my rationale says that given non resistance is fundamental to Aikido and it gives no pain then those techniques done which include it are good and those without it are not.

But you haven't yet given a reasonable justification for making it a given that "non-resistance is fundamental to Aikido." All you've said is that experiencing pain leads to understanding non-resistance, not why this understanding is "fundamental to Aikido."

Therefor you can have a painful full blown 'inescapable' nikkyo done to you and believe it's good but I say it cannot be. Effective.... yes, if you don't know how to non resist it.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion - however unjustified it may be...

I would be very interested in applying my nikyo to you and seeing just how well your non-resistance voids it.

Non resistance is a hard (soft ha, ha) thing to learn but is very real and part of this fine art. I would say it's good to learn it and bad not to, it's good to practice it and bad not to.

I agree. But I don't get the sense that you've thought very carefully through your views, which makes me very skeptical about your understanding of non-resistance.

Regards,

Jon.

[graham christian]

For you, perhaps, but the point of my questions was to highlight that you need a justification for why this should be the basic view from which you start.

But this fact actually suggests that pain is valuable. Without pain one would be unaware that one was sawing off one's finger. If one did a lot of sawing of wood, one could, in the absence of the sensation of pain, potentially lose a lot of fingers! Pain, then, is a good thing since it tells us that something injurious is happening to us and we ought to act to prevent the injury from continuing.

In any case, you haven't yet established why pain in the application of the technique is bad. All you've done so far is explain the obvious: pain indicates that something injurious is occurring. I still don't see that when applying nikyo painfully to someone I do the lock badly. I want uke to understand as the lock is applied that "something ain't good" and that if he does not yield to the lock what "ain't good" is only going to get worse.

So, you're saying here that the pain of intense physical exercise is not a bad thing because it yields increases in muscle mass and strength? But this implies that not all pain is bad, that pain actually may signal something ultimately positive is occurring. This doesn't seem to me to help establish your view that pain in nikyo is always a bad thing...

This is rather confusing. Are you saying "Pain is resistance" is a spiritual truth? If so, how, exactly?

And why should Aikido be a spiritual endeavour? Why is this the view of those who are "taking it seriously"? My late shihan took his Aikido very seriously but I never once in the twenty-some years I knew him ever heard him speak of the spirituality of Aikido. I don't, then, see that serious Aikido must be spiritual.

But this is precisely why pain in nikyo is useful: it encourages non-resistance on the part of uke.

I'm afraid you aren't making much sense here. You say that pain is important in discovering how not to resist but this means one must receive pain in order to make such a discovery. But in the context of Aikido training this suggests that Aikido technique ought to be painful so that uke might learn non-resistance. You've said, though, that painful technique is not good technique. Why then should nage perform painful technique on uke? Doing so, in your view, is to practice bad technique. Do you see the glaring problem in this? I do.

You haven't offered any explanation for how discovering non-resistance through pain leads to the understanding that non-resistance should be practiced by both uke and nage. If non-resistance is related to experiencing pain, are you saying nage should be in pain while practicing technique? Surely not. But this is the impression your words are giving.

Your rationale above seems to be:

1. Experiencing pain leads to an understanding of non-resistance.
2. Understanding non-resistance leads to understanding that both uke and nage should practice non-resistance.
3. Therefore, nikyo should not be applied painfully.

This is a glaring non-sequitur. Your conclusion does not clearly issue from your premises.

But you haven't yet given a reasonable justification for making it a given that "non-resistance is fundamental to Aikido." All you've said is that experiencing pain leads to understanding non-resistance, not why this understanding is "fundamental to Aikido."

Well, you're entitled to your opinion - however unjustified it may be...

I would be very interested in applying my nikyo to you and seeing just how well your non-resistance voids it.

I agree. But I don't get the sense that you've thought very carefully through your views, which makes me very skeptical about your understanding of non-resistance.

Regards,

Jon.

Oh well, I think I have explained quite well. Contrary to the so called rules of 'argument' and 'having to' justify I prefer explanation as best I can and leave it to others to understand what I am saying the best they can for my 'justification' is what I know.

I also prefer to follow what O'Sensei said rather than lots of others views and what they said. I tend to have a good affinity for such and practice in order to make those things he said, 90% of which are spiritual by the way, more real. Therefor I am not one of the many who say they didn't or don't have a clue what he was talking about and thus remove what he said from Aikido and put it down to 'other' spiritual practice. None, or very very little of what he said was other than Aikido as far as I am concerned and non resistance being a major factor.

Shin no budo is what he practiced as do I. To bring 'kon' into prominence, thus spiritual. So through non resistance experience the oneness and flow of the universe and thus Ki. Even before he called his art Aikido, which he did in his own words as far as I know, he called his aikibudo the art of oneness.

I hope all who do Aikido will experience oneness, will experience absolute non resistance, will experience the reality of budo is love, will experience and then be able to see what he said was Aikido rather than spiritual something else.

So I have no quarrel with your views for you are on the path but will always say that even if someone is on the path there are times they are and times they are not doing shin no budo.

Peace.G.

[ChrisMikk]

In any case, you haven't yet established why pain in the application of the technique is bad.

If the point of nikajo/nikyo is to control uke's knee through the arm, and if this can be done without pain, then a pain stimulus may disguise poor technique. If all you're interested in doing is making uke drop to the floor then pain may be adequate (although see above comments about performing nikyo on the unsuspecting and seeing pain without the desired compliance). I tend to think there is more to aikido then that.

[MRoh]

Pain can also be caused by uke himself trying to block or resist, it does not neccessarily have to be caused by a poor technique.

To reach the state of "non resistance", uke has to take a lot of nikkyo to make his body "permeable" for nages force.
Nage in turn has to learn to deal with ukes resistance, otherwise a strong uke might push him through the dojo, or if nage is stronger he will break the resistance with his own power, but this often leads to injury.
In a real fight there will be no time to struggle around, but it might be uesful to try something out in a practice-surrounding.

Concerning O Senseis techniques, my teacher said when he was young and he took ukemi for him, no matter where O Sensei grabbed, nikkyo or yonkyo, he felt terrible pain.
Somewhere I read that O Senseis ukes always tried to avoid being grabbed, because when it happened, it was painful.

[Walter Martindale]

If the point of nikajo/nikyo is to control uke's knee through the arm, and if this can be done without pain, then a pain stimulus may disguise poor technique. If all you're interested in doing is making uke drop to the floor then pain may be adequate (although see above comments about performing nikyo on the unsuspecting and seeing pain without the desired compliance). I tend to think there is more to aikido then that.

Jon can speak for himself. However - I've had people who have trained at Aikikai Hombu in Tokyo tell me that you shouldn't RELY on the pain to do the technique - the movement should do it - but - the you have to be able to create the pain because not everyone is going to move the way an aikido person will move - unless we're able to cause the pain (creating the compliance) joe bloggs might not realize that if he was in a dojo he'd have to go on one knee and "tap" to signify it's time to move on - he might need to get a bit of crunchy time on the forearm...

Not sure I get "controlling the knee through the arm" but yes, a well applied nikyo controls me and can provide significant ouch moments. Someone who doesn't quite get it might try to force the issue in the wrong alignment by applying more force, but that's not good nikyo - a good nikyo controls and can hurt.

there's dojo time and there's "just in case" time - and if you can't do the just in case stuff, the dojo time might be a waste of time.... Unless of course you're doing aikido for exercise and fitness.

[OwlMatt]

Nikkyo once sprained my wrist. When done right on a person who is not ready for it, it hurts a LOT. As with all techniques, much of the pain can be avoided with good ukemi.

My ukemi was not so good that day.

[Carsten Möllering]

... not everyone is going to move the way an aikido person will move ...
It's the purpose of my practice to make people move the way I want them to move. Whether they practice aikidô and know nikyo (or any other technique) or not.

I experience this to be possible when applying nikyo as a way of connection to uke which gives me control over his structure to a certain degree. Inflicting pain just locks up ukes structure and if he does not know how or where to move, he will just get stuck and "break up" if tori does not halt his technique.

----

I don't understand why it would be "more martial" to inflict pain? To me the criteria of martial effectivness is whether I can handle an aggressor or not. I think aikidô to be "designed" in a way that it works by using things like body structure (tori's structurer affects uke's structure), contact, inner movement, ... . To my experience pain is not (never) what makes aikidô waza work. It can be added if one want's to. But pain is not the vehicel of (technicly understood) aiki, I think.

[Jonathan]

I don't think nikyo must rely solely on pain for its effectiveness but saying it should not be at all painful seems to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I have never encountered a nikyo that wasn't at least uncomfortable in order to be effective. Certainly, I have never felt a nikyo that was totally pain-free that was also able to control me. Maybe I need a broader experience with other aikidoka.

I am not convinced that a pain-free form of nikyo would actually be effective against someone who was really trying to beat the crap out of you. A pain-free nikyo may appear to work in the dojo where uke has been carefully trained to respond in just the right way, but my experience suggests that such a response to a painless nikyo outside of the dojo by a very aggressive attacker is virtually nil.

My main purpose in commenting in this thread was to object to the idea that a painful nikyo must also necessarily be a poorly executed one. I don't believe this for a moment. The most effective nikyo I have ever felt was also very painful. If some wish to work toward an effective but pain-free nikyo, more power to them. They just shouldn't get on a high horse and proclaim to the rest of us that the proper and best nikyo must always be pain-free.

Regards,

Jon.

[ChrisMikk]

@ Walter and Jon,

I think we are talking about very different things. No, I wouldn't trust my life to a non-painful nikajo the way we perform it in the dojo. However, I wouldn't trust my life to nikajo under any circumstances.

"Controlling" uke has different meanings. In the kenshusei program in Kyoto, everything we are doing is about learning how to use our own center and get control of uke's center. In that training context, nikajo/nikyo can definitely be done to control uke without pain. I have had it done to me. I couldn't really resist--I just crumpled onto the ground. Would it have worked if I had been full of adrenaline and trying to punch and kick and shite and my bodies weren't aligned properly? Probably not. That is not the point of aikido, though, in my opinion.

Eventually, at a higher level of performance, I think the lessons learned in aikido should translate into improved fighting. However, if all you want to do is learn self-defense techniques, then you are wasting a lot of time in an aikido dojo, when you could be just learning only the most effective take-downs and locks with the most "wiggle room" for street-brawl-conditions-error.

[Bill Danosky]

I'd like to offer our local notion on jointlocks and their resulting throws:

Whichever of the controls you employ, the goal is to immobilize the movement of the arm and shoulder. When you have appropriately twisted the arm so that no slack for movement remains, the body is forced to follow the arm, when you drive it toward the ground.

This is how an effective nikka jo can be painless. You can push a rope or a chain, the saying goes- if you twist it just right, it locks up. Sanka jo is more ropey; nikka jo is the chain, in this example.

[Bill Danosky]

BTW, the street-bar room brawl version of nikka jo is the same as kihon, except instead of grasping his wrist with the off hand, you throw your arm over and use your elbow to lever him down, while your hand protects your face. You can turn away slightly, so he falls toward his free hand, and anything it might be holding. It's pretty reliable.

I mentioned before that if you are in guard, you can roll for Kimura and come up with nikka jo pretty often, if you are in a gym that allows it. You have to be careful, though- I did that to a BJJ guy and it really pi$$ed him off (but it was at the Bullshido Throwdown in Skokie so it was allowable).

[Robert Cheshire]

From an older post in a different thread - A query some of the learned folk of this forum may be able to answer. I recently had a discussion with a friend who studies Yoseikan Aikido and the differences between waza names e.g. Ikkyo, Ikkajo, Robuse. On my Yoshinkan side of the house, we are often told that the waza names come from the pre-War naming. My Yoseikan friend mentioned that the naming of Aikido waza in the modern Ikkyo, Nikkyo etc forms took place during a conference in the 60's era.

Is this rumour or can anyone confirm/deny? When in the development of Aikido did they stop using the Daito ryu waza names and start using the modern names?

Regards,

Stu

Many of our Yoseikan names come from Judo and the original names that O Sensei (Pre-War) called his techniques. Nikyu is called kote kudaki in Yoseikan Budo. That being said - while pain may not the "goal" I was always taught that it was an added benefit to the technique being done correctly. Let's not kid ourselves - this is a joint locking technique. Not to mention that the literal translation of kote kudaki is "wrist crushing." I think with a literal name like that one could expect there to be some amount of pain involved. I think it really boils down to the style and what nage/tori wants to do in their relationship of working with uke.

[Marie Noelle Fequiere]

At Ikashi Dojo, our nikyo hurts like hell, and that's the way we want it.

In a country when police force is insufficient and ill equipped, just forcing an aggressor down will not do it. We need something that will leave him - or her - writhing in pain, or, even better, passed out so we can run for our life.

This is the reality that those who dwell in the high spheres of philosophy do not know.

A foreign student once told me that our Aikido is street oriented, and that in some dojos elsewhere, partners do not even touch each other. This is cute, but it does not work for us.

A few days ago, my sister was dragged on the street by two men on a motorcycle who were trying to snatch her purse. The attack was too sudden and violent for her to even try to resist, and still, the purse did not come off her arm, and she was dragged into the traffic. She was lucky not to be run over, but her arm broke and had to be surgically repaired.

Try to live in a place like that, and you will want your nikyo to hurt.

Of course, in the dojo, we take care to apply any technique carefully, and to let go as soon as nage taps.

[mjhacker]

I'm not Aikikai, but I definitely don't cause pain in any technique.

1. It doesn't always work, and just pisses most people off.
2. It gives uke too much information about what I'm doing.
3. If I can get uke to lock himself up, why would I need/want to hurt him?

[Basia Halliop]

I don't have any objection to it hurting, and it often does, sometimes a lot. But I don't think I'd ever feel safe if I was actually relying on pain to bring someone down. That just seems way too dangerous.

It's such a common experience to have people react to pain by fighting harder against it (especially if they don't know what will stop the pain). In fact fighting harder against anything painful seems to be the most instinctive reaction of untrained beginners - they have to actually be taught that it will hurt less if they go with it. If you surprise or overwhelm them with something painful they'll usually fight it with all their strength and risk injury. But if you lock their joints and use leverage and collapse their body and stuff like that it can work even on an uke who's on their first day, since they don't really need to know what you're trying to make them do.

It's also so so common to ignore pain in the heat of the moment or not really feel it even when you later turn out to be seriously injured. When I think of painful injuries I've had - a broken wrist as a teenager, a toenail torn off in aikido, partially torn tendons - at least 50% of the time I kept going and only noticed I was injured after the adrenaline wore off.

So for me I think it seems quite useful to try to make things less painful and get them working well that way. You can always add the pain later on top if you want... But I don't feel that safe actually relying on pain.

[OwlMatt]

I'm not Aikikai, but I definitely don't cause pain in any technique.

1. It doesn't always work, and just pisses most people off.
2. It gives uke too much information about what I'm doing.
3. If I can get uke to lock himself up, why would I need/want to hurt him?

You "don't cause pain in any technique"? Really? I find that very hard to believe. Being immobilized against your will sometimes hurts. What you've listed are good reasons not to make pain the goal of technique and not to trust pain to make technique work, but good technique still hurts sometimes.

Any technique can theoretically be applied without pain, but no one is so good that he makes his techniques work 100% of the time against every uke without causing any pain. I can say from personal experience that even Ikeda, Tasaka, and Moriyama aren't that good, and in light of that, I feel pretty confident saying that no one is.

[mjhacker]

You "don't cause pain in any technique"? Really? I find that very hard to believe.

Fortunately for me, my experience is not predicated on your belief. There are more things in heaven and earth, Mr. Story, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. There may be a few people here who have trained with our folks recently enough who might be inclined comment on what I said. Tarik? Jun?

I know more than a few people who can lock me up from scalp to tooties without causing me pain. In fact, my teacher can throw me around without me being able to viscerally compute how it's even happening, despite my understanding of how it's happening. (Sometimes. I'm getting more skillful at figuring it out, but he, annoyingly, keeps getting more skillful, too. So there's that.) I, myself, didn't believe it until I first got my hands on my teacher. After that, there was no option for me but to leave Japan for Arizona to figure out how he did it. That was almost 16 years ago.

Did I say "pain doesn't happen?" Or did I say "I don't cause pain?" Very different. Perhaps we define "pain" differently or are parsing what I said in dissimilar ways.

Let's break this down to the minute particulars: Deliberately causing pain as a means to an end is very different from incidental ouchies that might occur as a result of uke struggling, Mr. Murphy stopping by for a visit, etc. Very different. I find this to be a useful question: Am I DOING the technique, or is the technique HAPPENING? If I have to rely on causing pain, I'm doing it wrong. I never want you to say "ouch." I want you to say "WTF???"

[lbb]

It's also so so common to ignore pain in the heat of the moment or not really feel it even when you later turn out to be seriously injured. When I think of painful injuries I've had - a broken wrist as a teenager, a toenail torn off in aikido, partially torn tendons - at least 50% of the time I kept going and only noticed I was injured after the adrenaline wore off.

Same here. When I've been running whitewater in a situation where an interruption could be fatal, I've taken some shots where I knew I'd been hit, but it was almost like reading the word "PAIN" on a piece of paper rather than experiencing it: a "PAIN" signal that didn't involve any feeling of pain. The only time I've ever felt pain in such a situation was when it was a pretty serious injury, and even then it was muffled.

[OwlMatt]

Fortunately for me, my experience is not predicated on your belief. There are more things in heaven and earth, Mr. Story, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. There may be a few people here who have trained with our folks recently enough who might be inclined comment on what I said. Tarik? Jun?

I know more than a few people who can lock me up from scalp to tooties without causing me pain. In fact, my teacher can throw me around without me being able to viscerally compute how it's even happening, despite my understanding of how it's happening. (Sometimes. I'm getting more skillful at figuring it out, but he, annoyingly, keeps getting more skillful, too. So there's that.) I, myself, didn't believe it until I first got my hands on my teacher. After that, there was no option for me but to leave Japan for Arizona to figure out how he did it. That was almost 16 years ago.

Did I say "pain doesn't happen?" Or did I say "I don't cause pain?" Very different. Perhaps we define "pain" differently or are parsing what I said in dissimilar ways.

Let's break this down to the minute particulars: Deliberately causing pain as a means to an end is very different from incidental ouchies that might occur as a result of uke struggling, Mr. Murphy stopping by for a visit, etc. Very different. I find this to be a useful question: Am I DOING the technique, or is the technique HAPPENING? If I have to rely on causing pain, I'm doing it wrong. I never want you to say "ouch." I want you to say "WTF???"

It seems that the root of our disagreement is not so much different ideas about aikido as different understandings of what it means to cause pain, because I agree with most of this.

[mjhacker]

It seems that the root of our disagreement is not so much different ideas about aikido as different understandings of what it means to cause pain, because I agree with most of this.

Actually, our approach to Aiki is probably different as well. What we do is rather unlike anything I've seen in Japan or the U.S. This is one reason I don't call what we do "Aikido," but rather Aikibudo. This is reflected by my teacher as well.

Not only should technique not hurt, ideally, uke shouldn't be able to feel what is happening at all.

[OwlMatt]

Actually, our approach to Aiki is probably different as well. What we do is rather unlike anything I've seen in Japan or the U.S. This is one reason I don't call what we do "Aikido," but rather Aikibudo. This is reflected by my teacher as well.
That's interesting. I'm going to have to look this up.

Not only should technique not hurt, ideally, uke shouldn't be able to feel what is happening at all.
I don't necessarily disagree. I just misunderstood what you meant when you said you "don't cause pain in any technique".

[sakumeikan]

I'm not Aikikai, but I definitely don't cause pain in any technique.

1. It doesn't always work, and just pisses most people off.
2. It gives uke too much information about what I'm doing.
3. If I can get uke to lock himself up, why would I need/want to hurt him?

Dear Michael,
If you do not cause pain to anyone in your dojo how do you teach your students to respond to a powerful waza which pounds them through the floor?How do you prepare them for a powerful nikkyo which cranks the wrist? For myself I can testify that Nikkyo hurts like hell at least for me.Joe.

[mjhacker]

If you do not cause pain to anyone in your dojo how do you teach your students to respond to a powerful waza which pounds them through the floor?How do you prepare them for a powerful nikkyo which cranks the wrist? For myself I can testify that Nikkyo hurts like hell at least for me.Joe.

Three words: Don't Push Back. (Four words: Don't Push Back. Ever.)

[Bill Danosky]

Three words: Don't Push Back. (Four words: Don't Push Back. Ever.)

Huh? Just looking for a clarification.

[Bill Danosky]

Two sentences-
1. Twist the wrist until the arm and shoulder can't move any further.
2. Drive the arm into the ground.

If you did #2 right it doesn't matter if it hurt or not.

[mjhacker]

Huh? Just looking for a clarification.

Don't push back. Don't fight. Don't resist.

[Bill Danosky]

Do any of you guys practice the Nikka jo variation where you cut toward your knee drag and uke toward you? That one can make you wet your dogi.

[sakumeikan]

Three words: Don't Push Back. (Four words: Don't Push Back. Ever.)

Dear Michael,
Your answer at least for me is as clear as mud. `cheers, `joe

[Janet Rosen]

Do any of you guys practice the Nikka jo variation where you cut toward your knee drag and uke toward you? That one can make you wet your dogi.

Dragging uke towards me (or in any direction) is never part of my repertoire so very much a YMMV issue!

[mjhacker]

Your answer at least for me is as clear as mud. `cheers, `joe

I don't know how to express it much more clearly. Words don't really work until you've felt it. Then, they work just fine.

Cheers,

Michael

[Bill Danosky]

Dragging uke towards me (or in any direction) is never part of my repertoire so very much a YMMV issue!

OMG, Janet. You have to promise me you will try this one. It''s delightful. You would apply this as a henka the next time you go for nikkyo and don't quite have it. If uke is giving you resistance to the drive toward the ground, you can switch your grip and draw him in, cutting with downward pressure against the wrist, as you back up as many steps as is practical.

The hand you're holding their hand with stays the same. The key is to rake the top of their forearm (really, the bottom of their forearm, which is turned upward at that point) with the bottom edge of your's, (toward you) instead of grasping their wrist. You know the lightning bolts you get from yonka jo? Uke will follow you to Japan, trying to get ahead of this one. Sorry I don't have a good .gif to offer. If you practice it once, you will figure it out.

You know who would like this? Marie Noelle.

[mjhacker]

Dragging uke towards me (or in any direction) is never part of my repertoire so very much a YMMV issue!

Agreed. I never want to pull uke into me, let alone drag him anywhere.

PS: I'm liking a lot of what you're saying lately. It's been too long since I've had my hands on you. We need to remedy that as soon as possible.

[Bill Danosky]

I don't know how to express it much more clearly. Words don't really work until you've felt it. Then, they work just fine.l

I get what you're saying, but I don't believe in absolutes like that. Those kinds of concepts are not going to keep you from being abducted, if you are suddenly in the wrong country, or suffer some other mishap. You don't know. I'm not living under the threat of violence every day, but crazy $h!!+ happens every day. A few hours a week I can spend some time on it. That's just being prudent. I mean, you're already there in the dojo sweating.

[mjhacker]

I get what you're saying, but I don't believe in absolutes like that. Those kinds of concepts are not going to keep you from being abducted, if you are suddenly in the wrong country, or suffer some other mishap. You don't know. I'm not living under the threat of violence every day, but crazy $h!!+ happens every day. A few hours a week I can spend some time on it. That's just being prudent. I mean, you're already there in the dojo sweating.

Are we talking about Liam Neeson rescuing his daughter now? I thought we were talking about training in a dojo. If you want to talk about doing this stuff "for real," that's a different conversation.

[Bill Danosky]

You can make up whatever scenario you think is plausible. You're not forced to do that, either. I am going to train a couple times a week. Personally, I would feel like I was wasting my time if I weren't getting some practical skills out of it. And I would switch dojos. But I don't, so that tells you something about the range of Aikido experiences you can have.

[Bill Danosky]

And I think it's appropriate to have a conversation about doing this "for real". Why not? I see you have some budo in your dojo description. What are they teaching you there?

I just noticed you live in AZ. Do you not go to Mexico?

[mjhacker]

And I think it's appropriate to have a conversation about doing this "for real". Why not? I see you have some budo in your dojo description. What are they teaching you there?

If you're really interested in what we teach here, feel free to drop by if you're ever in the area. Our contact info is in my signature. We also have lots of good places to eat. Just avoid Phoenix in the summer. Too damn hot.

[Bill Danosky]

If I have to base it on your sales pitch, you may be toward the end of the list, Mike.

[hughrbeyer]

Do any of you guys practice the Nikka jo variation where you cut toward your knee drag and uke toward you? That one can make you wet your dogi.

My teacher shows this, as an option in certain situations. He also teaches that you shouldn't depend on pain compliance for nikkyo to work, so go figure.

"Drag" is probably not the best term, though it's inevitable shorthand. It's more like: make a hole, lock up uke's structure so there's no where else for him to go, and the more he falls into it the more hole you make. It looks a lot like dragging.

[mjhacker]

If I have to base it on your sales pitch, you may be toward the end of the list, Mike.

I don't make sales pitches. In fact, we generally try to talk people out of training with us. What I did was invite you openly to visit my home. How you responded tells me all I need to know about who you are.

Serves me right for trying to engage in a friendly exchange of information in a public forum. I think I have nothing further to say here.

[tarik]

Dear Michael,
Your answer at least for me is as clear as mud. `cheers, `joe

Try taking his words absolutely literally and have them affect your ukemi? They really couldn't be more clear, but IME, people push back all the time even when they claim they aren't.

[tarik]

Do any of you guys practice the Nikka jo variation where you cut toward your knee drag and uke toward you? That one can make you wet your dogi.

When tori does that to me, they usually get dumped on their ass through the hand they are putting through their "impossible nikyo", not because I'm being mean, but because any time you drag uke anywhere, uke can take you if uke is allowed (or required) to be honest.

[Bill Danosky]

I don't make sales pitches. In fact, we generally try to talk people out of training with us. What I did was invite you openly to visit my home. How you responded tells me all I need to know about who you are.

Serves me right for trying to engage in a friendly exchange of information in a public forum. I think I have nothing further to say here.

Don't be insulted, Mike. It was just a joke, lost in translation. You did a fair job of discouraging me and then warned me about the heat, so I said you weren't selling it very well. Much is lost in text-only communication.

[Bill Danosky]

When tori does that to me, they usually get dumped on their ass through the hand they are putting through their "impossible nikyo", not because I'm being mean, but because any time you drag uke anywhere, uke can take you if uke is allowed (or required) to be honest.

Again, there are no absolutes. Any time you do anything, you're vulnerable to a counter. As I mentioned earlier on one thread or another, watching MMA does have it's plusses- It reveals that even world champion fighters land techniques a fraction of the times they attempt them.

This is henka waza, so it's difficult to test repeatedly. But you and I both know if we did it 10 times, you are going to dump me X times and I'm going to drag you X times.

[Bill Danosky]

"Drag" is probably not the best term, though it's inevitable shorthand... It looks a lot like dragging.
This is an astute observation. "Cutting toward your knee, as you take a number of steps backward" is pretty ungainly, and isn't that much better a description. Guess a picture really is worth a thousand words.

[Janet Rosen]

Agreed. I never want to pull uke into me, let alone drag him anywhere.

PS: I'm liking a lot of what you're saying lately. It's been too long since I've had my hands on you. We need to remedy that as soon as possible.

I'd love to get together w/ you, Tarik, Chuck, etc...it's darn hard for me to get to Bay Area or to Tarik's unless I'm going to stay put in the area for a few days, which means considerable advance planning....but am very much open to aiming for it!

[Basia Halliop]

Three words: Don't Push Back. (Four words: Don't Push Back. Ever.)

How do you teach them that, though? I'm assuming there's more to it that just explaining those words to them, but I'm wondering what the teaching looks like in practice, if they aren't actually dealing with pain when they're training. Is it like, they are taught and practice not pushing back and the goal is to make it enough of an automatic habit that it they do encounter pain, they already have the right habit of how to respond? Or there is occasionally some pain, it's just very mild, but it's enough that they can try out ways of responding and learn the correct response that works and cement it into the automatic part of their brain? Basically, if they don't encounter pain when they're training, how do you prevent the panic response when they do encounter pain, where they get surprised and respond in a way that makes it worse? Or have I misunderstood what's meant by not causing pain?

[Malicat]

Bill, if you can get me a video of this, I'd love to try it. I think I am lacking in some mental ability in translating words to physical actions, but I love a good nikkyo. We have quite a few super flexible young men we train with, and pain compliance on some techniques is hard to come by. I've got one that I refer to as "the fancy nikkyo" that works with pain compliance on all of them, and I'd love to learn another one.

--Ashley


The hand you're holding their hand with stays the same. The key is to rake the top of their forearm (really, the bottom of their forearm, which is turned upward at that point) with the bottom edge of your's, (toward you) instead of grasping their wrist. You know the lightning bolts you get from yonka jo? Uke will follow you to Japan, trying to get ahead of this one. Sorry I don't have a good .gif to offer. If you practice it once, you will figure it out.

[Bill Danosky]

Bill, if you can get me a video of this, I'd love to try it. I think I am lacking in some mental ability in translating words to physical actions, but I love a good nikkyo. We have quite a few super flexible young men we train with, and pain compliance on some techniques is hard to come by. I've got one that I refer to as "the fancy nikkyo" that works with pain compliance on all of them, and I'd love to learn another one.

--Ashley

I'm trying to find a video for you. Tell us about your fancy nikkyo in the meantime. It's just a discussion, so you don't have to be a Shihan to offer something.

[phitruong]

i had folks cranking on my wrist, elbows and so on. some even tore my shoulder. but folks did that, never got my center. then there are folks whose nikkyo and sankyo so gentle that you just have no choice and your center broken the whole time. this video is one of those gentle folks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hg_ocGoBq8&list=PL7BEC46C5073AE044 that i had my hands on. Mary Heiny's nikkyo also very nice and gentle, but she also had at least 3 atemi on you before the technique was over. i really don't care for folks who crank on my wrist with both of their hands which allow me to drop fast and go for groin shot or kick to their knees.

[Bill Danosky]

i had folks cranking on my wrist, elbows and so on. some even tore my shoulder. but folks did that, never got my center. then there are folks whose nikkyo and sankyo so gentle that you just have no choice and your center broken the whole time.. i really don't care for folks who crank on my wrist with both of their hands which allow me to drop fast and go for groin shot or kick to their knees.
You come up with some gems.

Ankle pick is a great counter for a sloppy Nikkyo, too. Takes the pressure off and works like a charm. You just fake like it worked and stand back up with his foot in your hand. Or a handful of dogi cuff.

Anybody ever do a Shiho Nage on someone's leg? Never seen it done, but that might be a good time.

[Adam Huss]

You come up with some gems.

Ankle pick is a great counter for a sloppy Nikkyo, too. Takes the pressure off and works like a charm. You just fake like it worked and stand back up with his foot in your hand. Or a handful of dogi cuff.

Anybody ever do a Shiho Nage on someone's leg? Never seen it done, but that might be a good time.

My friend and I were playing with a leg shihonage last week and we lost interest before we were able to get it to work. I was practicing kick defense for an upcoming test...like two days before the test...so it didn't take much for us to abandon fooling around with it.

[Malicat]

I'm trying to find a video for you. Tell us about your fancy nikkyo in the meantime. It's just a discussion, so you don't have to be a Shihan to offer something.

I am lousy at explaining this, but bear with me. Starting with katate tori hansha, step hantai tenkan and use your cross hand to break the grip like you are about to do an ikkyo. As you start to turn uke's arm over, use the same side hand to lock your thumb underneath uke's thumb. Move directly in to uke and spin your arm underneath the uke's elbow so you are standing side by side, with uke's elbow locked against your rib, and just lean both your hands on the back of uke's hand and pull back. The lock is solid and puts you in a good escort position if you just want to walk someone out the door. Plus I've yet to find anyone who can weasel out of it, no matter how flexible their wrists are. I usually teach it from that attack, but it works even nicer from yokomen uchi. I love the economy of movement with it.

[sakumeikan]

i had folks cranking on my wrist, elbows and so on. some even tore my shoulder. but folks did that, never got my center. then there are folks whose nikkyo and sankyo so gentle that you just have no choice and your center broken the whole time. this video is one of those gentle folks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hg_ocGoBq8&list=PL7BEC46C5073AE044 that i had my hands on. Mary Heiny's nikkyo also very nice and gentle, but she also had at least 3 atemi on you before the technique was over. i really don't care for folks who crank on my wrist with both of their hands which allow me to drop fast and go for groin shot or kick to their knees.
Hi Phi,
Watched the video . Endo Senseis Uke?? Whats his name? I have met him before. San Diego if my memory serves me well. Cheers, Joe.

[Bill Danosky]

..Starting with katate tori hansha, step hantai tenkan and use your cross hand to break the grip like you are about to do an ikkyo. As you start to turn uke's arm over, use the same side hand to lock your thumb underneath uke's thumb. Move directly in to uke and spin your arm underneath the uke's elbow so you are standing side by side, with uke's elbow locked against your rib, and just lean both your hands on the back of uke's hand and pull back. The lock is solid and puts you in a good escort position if you just want to walk someone out the door...

Does it look similar to this at the end)?
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/DsevxKzu-Ck/hqdefault.jpg

Pretty sure we call it Renko Ho, or Gooseneck comealong (although I think it actually means "arresting technique"). The application would be like you would fake a "hammer lock" from the side/rear. Uke, and most people will pull their arm out and you just scoop it up, right into Renko Ho. Am I getting it?

[Malicat]

Pretty sure we call it Renko Ho, or Gooseneck comealong (although I think it actually means "arresting technique"). The application would be like you would fake a "hammer lock" from the side/rear. Uke, and most people will pull their arm out and you just scoop it up, right into Renko Ho. Am I getting it?

Close, but nage's arm winds up a little more on top and to the side, instead of on the bottom. I'd love to be sure to have the proper name for the technique.

Thanks!

--Ashley

[Bill Danosky]

It's not a very good picture, but that is Shite's arm on the bottom and Uke's fingers pointing down. If it helps, uke seems to have black sleeves and Shite is wearing short sleeves. It's hard to see uke's arm, but it is against Shite's ribs, like you mentioned. Is that it?

[Krystal Locke]

I am learning that there are a couple sorts of hurting in aikido. Nikkyo is an excellent example of this dichotomy.

There is the nikkyo where nage is twisting and squeezing and wringing the shit out of uke's wrist. Iit hurts like a son of a bitch, it can even injure uke, but it does not break uke's structure down and uke can find the place to resist, absorb, reverse, or neutralize the technique.

The nikkyo I hope to learn before I die is a little different. The emphasis is not on pain compliance, but on kuzushi. The nikkyo is applied in a way such that uke loses their balance in such a way that they fall into the nikkyo, they put it on themselves with their bodyweight This makes a very strong, fast feedback loop, and this nikkyo goes from being just about kuzushi, immediately through any mere idea of simple "I'm gonna hurt you unless you do what I want you to" pain compliance, to an agony of having no structure, no balance, and this weird, white-hot inescapable sensation that is just a dozen notches up from pain.

The first nikkyo hurts, but that's about it. The second nikkyo destroys uke's structure, and oh by the way hurts a bit, in a way that locks up and hurts more than just the wrist, and there's not a damn thing uke can do about it.

The difference to my noobish mind is that the nage doing the first nikkyo is doing it in a way that sends the forces into the wrist, and then into the uke's center so that uke's legs, pelvis, center, spine, shoulder and arm can all absorb a little bit of the discomfort, and all the joints have some degree of freedom of movement. The second nikkyo looks much the same, but the energy put into the wrist is brought in front of uke, toward a front "third leg" that causes uke to fall forward into the technique.

This seems to me to be a concrete example of using uke's energy against them.

[mjhacker]

Try taking his words absolutely literally and have them affect your ukemi? They really couldn't be more clear, but IME, people push back all the time even when they claim they aren't.
Yup. I'm not being cryptic at all. I'm being pretty literal.

[mjhacker]

The nikkyo I hope to learn before I die is a little different. The emphasis is not on pain compliance, but on kuzushi.

It's out there if you really want it. You just need to find someone who can do it and can teach you how to do it. This, unfortunately, may be a harder task than actually learning how to do it. That said, learning how to do this requires a complete reprogramming of everything you do. You can't just learn 1 'trick' and leave everything else the same. It doesn't work that way.

I knew I had met my (then new) teacher when he could not only "do" it to me however and whenever he wanted, but could also clearly explain it and and teach ME to do it.

I taught the idea behind it (on a *very* basic level) to a visiting lady in about 1 or 2 hours using 2 movements from one of our 'kata.' We played with them all night, and she picked it up quite quickly.

At the end, I did "nikyo" with her. She looked puzzled and said it didn't feel like I had done it correctly because it didn't hurt. I asked her to move her feet and she found she couldn't. I asked her to let go and she found she couldn't. Then I asked her, "If I own your entire system, why do I need to hurt you?" She broke down in tears.

The lady in question had *very* flexible wrists and was used to the men in her dojo cranking on her joints in order to make the technique work. Apparently, realizing that all the pain and injury was unnecessary caused a strong emotional release. I let her cry and said, "I understand." Then we, as Jun might say, got back to training.

I don't know if she ever trained again once she returned home, but she did write our dojo a nice thank you note for the training time. She is a credit to her teacher.

[mjhacker]

I'd love to get together w/ you, Tarik, Chuck, etc...it's darn hard for me to get to Bay Area or to Tarik's unless I'm going to stay put in the area for a few days, which means considerable advance planning....but am very much open to aiming for it!

Next time I get to Tarik's, let's see if we can make a plan to get you on the mats. It's been far too long.

[mjhacker]

How do you teach them that, though? I'm assuming there's more to it that just explaining those words to them, but I'm wondering what the teaching looks like in practice, if they aren't actually dealing with pain when they're training. Is it like, they are taught and practice not pushing back and the goal is to make it enough of an automatic habit that it they do encounter pain, they already have the right habit of how to respond? Or there is occasionally some pain, it's just very mild, but it's enough that they can try out ways of responding and learn the correct response that works and cement it into the automatic part of their brain? Basically, if they don't encounter pain when they're training, how do you prevent the panic response when they do encounter pain, where they get surprised and respond in a way that makes it worse? Or have I misunderstood what's meant by not causing pain?
Excellent question.

It's actually kind of like acquiring a foreign language. It's best done in the country where it's used all the time so you can spend every moment swimming in it. In other words, my sad attempts at explaining it on the internet are ineffective when compared to spending 30 minutes on the mats would be. Once you have that physical context, the words will make a lot more sense. Without it, they aren't of much use. The best way to learn this is to find someone who has the "stuff" and plug into them as often as possible.

Earlier, I said "Don't push back." I take this to heart. Literally. I don't want to fight your technique with physical strength (unless I have a specific lesson or experiment in mind). If you push me, I turn. If you pull me, I enter. I never want to push back or try to stop you with muscular force (i.e. "resist"). I've worked for quite a while to get that monkey-brain-level instinct to push back out of my system. It isn't completely gone by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a little more under control now than it was.

If I shove you, what is your natural response? Likely, it will be to push back (resist). That response might work if you're stronger or have superior position, but it ceases to make sense if the "push" is a knife to the chest or a finger to the eye. This said, how can you, in the 'heat of the moment,' decide to change how your body is going to respond on an almost subconscious, cellular level? You can't. It has to be part of your training in everything that you do so that it becomes the new you. You can't dabble. It's in how you train every moment, how you open doors, how you play with a puppy, how you make a peanut butter and jelly sammich... There are no tricks. There are no "moves." There is only a reprogrammed you.

Walk on road, hmmm? Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later, [squish] get squish just like grape. Here, karate, same thing. Either you karate do "yes" or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so"... [squish] just like grape. Understand?

We teach this idea of not fighting... not pushing back... from day one. It's ingrained in our approach to teaching people to receive force with their bodies and emotions (i.e. ukemi). Water doesn't fight... it flows and finds the cracks. But, if everyone (and I mean everyone) you train with isn't on the same page (at their respective levels), you may be doomed to failure while attempting to learn this.

[Krystal Locke]

The great thing is that I actually DO have a couple folk at home who can teach this very well. Now I just have to freaking learn from them. And, I have access to several other people who also have it.

I am learning that I dont have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. My experience with aikido so far leads well into what I am trying to learn now. I am having to reprogram some stuff, mostly "footwork" and entry angles. That's proving to be pretty tough, but I'm sure it will come along. Mostly, since I am learning new things, I am coming in way too big and missing the sweet spots. I've never been subtle. If a tack nailer will do nicely, I'm grabbing the sledge. Nobody can accuse me of having any sensitivity.

It's out there if you really want it. You just need to find someone who can do it and can teach you how to do it. This, unfortunately, may be a harder task than actually learning how to do it. That said, learning how to do this requires a complete reprogramming of everything you do. You can't just learn 1 'trick' and leave everything else the same. It doesn't work that way.

I knew I had met my (then new) teacher when he could not only "do" it to me however and whenever he wanted, but could also clearly explain it and and teach ME to do it.

I taught the idea behind it (on a *very* basic level) to a visiting lady in about 1 or 2 hours using 2 movements from one of our 'kata.' We played with them all night, and she picked it up quite quickly.

At the end, I did "nikyo" with her. She looked puzzled and said it didn't feel like I had done it correctly because it didn't hurt. I asked her to move her feet and she found she couldn't. I asked her to let go and she found she couldn't. Then I asked her, "If I own your entire system, why do I need to hurt you?" She broke down in tears.

The lady in question had *very* flexible wrists and was used to the men in her dojo cranking on her joints in order to make the technique work. Apparently, realizing that all the pain and injury was unnecessary caused a strong emotional release. I let her cry and said, "I understand." Then we, as Jun might say, got back to training.

I don't know if she ever trained again once she returned home, but she did write our dojo a nice thank you note for the training time. She is a credit to her teacher.

[mjhacker]

I am learning that I dont have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. My experience with aikido so far leads well into what I am trying to learn now. I am having to reprogram some stuff, mostly "footwork" and entry angles. That's proving to be pretty tough, but I'm sure it will come along. Mostly, since I am learning new things, I am coming in way too big and missing the sweet spots. I've never been subtle. If a tack nailer will do nicely, I'm grabbing the sledge. Nobody can accuse me of having any sensitivity.

Judging by some of the words you use (e.g. "sweet spots" and "subtle"), it sounds like you're on your way. I'm interested in seeing where this takes you.

[Bill Danosky]

The great thing is that I actually DO have a couple folk at home who can teach this very well. Now I just have to freaking learn from them. And, I have access to several other people who also have it.

I am learning that I dont have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. My experience with aikido so far leads well into what I am trying to learn now. I am having to reprogram some stuff, mostly "footwork" and entry angles. That's proving to be pretty tough, but I'm sure it will come along. Mostly, since I am learning new things, I am coming in way too big and missing the sweet spots. I've never been subtle. If a tack nailer will do nicely, I'm grabbing the sledge. Nobody can accuse me of having any sensitivity.

Maybe you have mentioned this before, but I'm wondering if there's an event behind your Aikido renaissance, so to speak? It looks like you've been around since 2004, but are now referring to reprogramming and worrying about having to abandon the whole project. Aikido schools, traditions, philosophies differ widely. Even the nomenclature is different. You've probably noticed how advice that's good for some may be terrible for others, depending on how they train.

Has something changed in your outlook? Switched dojos or styles recently?

[Janet Rosen]

The great thing is that I actually DO have a couple folk at home who can teach this very well. Now I just have to freaking learn from them. And, I have access to several other people who also have it.

I am learning that I dont have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. My experience with aikido so far leads well into what I am trying to learn now. I am having to reprogram some stuff, mostly "footwork" and entry angles. That's proving to be pretty tough, but I'm sure it will come along. Mostly, since I am learning new things, I am coming in way too big and missing the sweet spots. I've never been subtle. If a tack nailer will do nicely, I'm grabbing the sledge. Nobody can accuse me of having any sensitivity.

Ahh, I've been on the mat with you within the past year...you ain't THAT insensitive :) and you are on the right track for sure!

[Keith Larman]

It's out there if you really want it. You just need to find someone who can do it and can teach you how to do it. This, unfortunately, may be a harder task than actually learning how to do it. That said, learning how to do this requires a complete reprogramming of everything you do. You can't just learn 1 'trick' and leave everything else the same. It doesn't work that way.

Just wanted to pop in for a second. I think I have an idea of what you've been talking about, but I have a new entry in my training journal to have one of you guys do this to me next time I'm on the mat with one of you. Lord, I love this stuff. But it's so much better in person. That tends to wipe away all the grey fog and BS pretty darned quickly.

Cool stuff and carry on...

[Krystal Locke]

I have greater access to the people who are shaping my aikido than I did back in the day. I know more advanced practitioners than I did. I have much broader perspective than I did 20 years ago. I'm past (sort of) the rote learning of techniques and am in a place where I can do analysis of the art in a context a little bigger than just waza. I have frequently put myself in situations where my aikido has to work, good times, that.

Maybe you have mentioned this before, but I'm wondering if there's an event behind your Aikido renaissance, so to speak? It looks like you've been around since 2004, but are now referring to reprogramming and worrying about having to abandon the whole project. Aikido schools, traditions, philosophies differ widely. Even the nomenclature is different. You've probably noticed how advice that's good for some may be terrible for others, depending on how they train.

Has something changed in your outlook? Switched dojos or styles recently?

[Bill Danosky]

I have frequently put myself in situations where my aikido has to work, good times, that.

Do tell!

[Krystal Locke]

I do event security. I stop fights. Aikido is very nice for that.

Do tell!

[Bill Danosky]

I do event security. I stop fights. Aikido is very nice for that.

Isn't it, though? It's great having softer options that you can scale up when you need to. Back me up, here- Ude Garami rocks. Renko Ho, Ikka Jo and- believe it or not- Sokumen Irimi Nage, too. Hiji Shime, also. I could keep going, but I'll restrain my enthusiasm. Joe Thambu Sensei bounced in Australian bars for 20 years. This stuff is pretty well worked out.

[Basia Halliop]

Excellent question.

Earlier, I said "Don't push back." I take this to heart. Literally. I don't want to fight your technique with physical strength (unless I have a specific lesson or experiment in mind). If you push me, I turn. If you pull me, I enter. I never want to push back or try to stop you with muscular force (i.e. "resist"). I've worked for quite a while to get that monkey-brain-level instinct to push back out of my system. It isn't completely gone by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a little more under control now than it was.


Thanks, this I'm familiar with. My question was specifically about a reaction to pain. Someone (I've lost track now if it was you or someone else) made a statement that they never used any pain when training (unless I musunderstood that comment).

That led me to ponder how we react to pain. It's sometimes very automatic, much more of a flinch response than a conscious strategy. So I was pondering if it's possible to reprogram a flinch response without directly practicing it - i.e., if training a very reliable and automatic response to non-painful pressures and tensions will translate into using that response instinctively when there's actual pain. Or if it's better to at least occasionally practice responding to actual pain (Perhaps a more slowly applied pain? Or a smaller one? ) to be sure your reflex 'don't resist' response is programmed as a response to pain as well.

I do find many joint locks painful at least some of the time, so I've had lots of opportunities to practice moving with it instead of against it when something suddenly hurts. So I don't have personal experience with a scenario where someone has trained for a while but never or rarely felt them applied in a painful way and then suddenly one day they receive a painful one, and I don't know one way or another what their reflex response is likely to be, but am curious...

[Krystal Locke]

It isn't about techniques for me. It is movement principles, and applied physics. Not being a yoshinkan practitioner, I couldn't tell you about the specific techniques you name unless I bothered to translate them into aikikai speak. I can tell you that it is important in my line of work to let technique flow from my need to get control over the overall situation.

I look at angles and timing for entry and for neutralization. I look at natural responses to specific physical stimulus. I look at removing people's weapons by controlling range and body positions, and controlling their center without allowing my center to be controlled. I look at locking joint chains rather than getting a technique. If a technique happens, it happens. I dont care which one I use to light someone up and get them out of the door. It just has to be available, effective, and ultimately not too damaging to the person I bounce. Defensible in court.

I dont scale my training up in my job, I actually scale it way down. It usually takes very little to get an untrained person off balance and under control, and they usually have never felt the discomfort of a joint lock or comealong. Technique generally blows a bouncee up so far that they cannot listen to me and do as I ask. It is really hard for someone to stop fighting when I am reaching into their sensory system and fucking everything right up. They cant hear me telling them to stop what they're doing. If I can soften up to where they're just on the comfortable side of the line, I can persuade them to listen, and I still have room to break them down if I have to.

On the mat, I am dealing with people who can effectively resist my technique unless I do it just right, and put a lot of correctness juice into it. Maybe that's why I am an ass on the mat.

Isn't it, though? It's great having softer options that you can scale up when you need to. Back me up, here- Ude Garami rocks. Renko Ho, Ikka Jo and- believe it or not- Sokumen Irimi Nage, too. Hiji Shime, also. I could keep going, but I'll restrain my enthusiasm. Joe Thambu Sensei bounced in Australian bars for 20 years. This stuff is pretty well worked out.

[Bill Danosky]

So I was pondering if it's possible to reprogram a flinch response without directly practicing it - i.e., if training a very reliable and automatic response to non-painful pressures and tensions will translate into using that response instinctively when there's actual pain. Or if it's better to at least occasionally practice responding to actual pain (Perhaps a more slowly applied pain? Or a smaller one? ) to be sure your reflex 'don't resist' response is programmed as a response to pain as well..

GASP. But, but... but...

Am I understanding you want to reprogram YOUR flinch response not to resist pain?

[Janet Rosen]

I dont scale my training up in my job, I actually scale it way down. It usually takes very little to get an untrained person off balance and under control, and they usually have never felt the discomfort of a joint lock or comealong. Technique generally blows a bouncee up so far that they cannot listen to me and do as I ask. It is really hard for someone to stop fighting when I am reaching into their sensory system and fucking everything right up. They cant hear me telling them to stop what they're doing. If I can soften up to where they're just on the comfortable side of the line, I can persuade them to listen, and I still have room to break them down if I have to.

:)

[Bill Danosky]

It isn't about techniques for me. It is movement principles, and applied physics... I can tell you that it is important in my line of work to let technique flow from my need to get control over the overall situation.


That makes perfect sense. It's Mu Shin. As Bruce Lee said, "The biggest inhibitor to proper physical performance is the consciousness of self." That means the part of your brain that thinks about what to do next can't possibly keep up with what's going on. IMO, training hard, the way you're going to do it in real life is the only way to have it RELIABLY flow out in ways that are appropriate. Then your mind can get out of your body's way while it's taking care of business. And by that, I (as a Yoshinkan practitioner) mean using waza because it's the optimal execution of the movement, or we'd teach it differently.

So I'm essentially agreeing, if I understand what you're saying. But with one caveat- If you're training techniques, you're using techniques. Well or poorly, not to say it isn't effective either way.

I have some basis for saying that- I worked in prisons for 5 years. It was about like what you do, but almost everybody's bigger, stronger and meaner than you (me, I mean). And generally sober, but just as pi$$ed.

[Bill Danosky]

On the mat, I am dealing with people who can effectively resist my technique unless I do it just right, and put a lot of correctness juice into it. Maybe that's why I am an ass on the mat. :)

[kfa4303]

What can I say - it satisfies my inner sadist.

This:)
Nikkyo can/does/should hurt like a bolt of lightning going up your arm when applied properly. It will bring even the biggest guys to their knees in an instant. It's the one technique I use to show what Aikido is in 30 seconds, or less. The pain itself is produced from compression of the medial and radial nerves in the carpal region of the wrist. Best of all, it can be released just as easily as it was applied with no real lasting damage to uke. It's a great self-defense technique and has many "real world" applications as well. The version in the vid is a bit "stiff"/formal, but that seems to be a common approach in many Yoshinkan schools. Here' another approach. Jump to the 3:40 mark for Nikkyo demo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI0zWEiPhhM

[Janet Rosen]

Actually the famous study of nikkyo by Gregory D. Olson and Frank C. Seitz in the early 90s noted it is the touching of the periostium of the ulna and radius that produces the exquisite pain.
And many of us become quite immune to that aspect of it...which they explain as well in that over time it seems there is more of a gap between the bones.
Discussion of nikkyo starts on p. 11
http://issuu.com/csolimpia_slobozia/docs/38679607-anatomy-and-aikido-perceptual-and-motor-s

[kfa4303]

"Famous study"? I've never seen it until now, and if you read the who thing there is quite a bit "assuming" and "surmising" going on. Aside from the fact that we're taking a huge leap in "assuming" they're even applying the techniques correctly, there are still so many variables they did not control for that this can hardly be called "scientific". The most obvious being a rather unresponsive cadaver specimen, which constituted a sample population of exactly 1. (what is the p-value for a sample of 1, 1? I don't see a Cronbach alpha-score listed in this "scientific" study) Quick, what am I talking about? No Googling.........LOL!!! It's beyond laughable, it's down right insulting to anyone who has even passing familiarity with basic statistics and the scientific method. Clearly, the good (doctors?) conducted amateur researchers, at best. Not to mention the few living subjects they applied the technique to were also of wildly contrasting builds and abilities, by their own admission.
Again, this is antithetical to the scientific method in which as many variable as possible must be accounted and controlled for. That includes the size, age, weight of the participants, a significantly large sample size, non-biased subjects and practitioners, etc.....
In the section titled "What's causing the Pain?: A re-examination of the Aikido Nikyo Technique" the authors admit freely that "Although it *appears* that the Nikyo technique of both studies was executed similarly, a discrepancy emerged in the findings..." Ya don't say? It *appears* as though David Copperfield can fly, so he must be able to fly. I mean it *appears* that way, so it must be true. They go on to admit that different subjects perceive the pain in vastly different regions and to greatly varying degrees with some reporting pain up the entire length of their arm. This discredits rather supports their hypothesis and suggests inconsistent application of technique on the part of the "experts". They go on to conclude that "It is the contention of this study that both studies' findings are correct." Furthermore, "The differing results may be attributed to the particular anatomy and length of training of the subjects." (again, with the lack of control specimens, tsk, tsk.) So despite the fact that they recorded pain in wildly different areas of the arm, on wildly different specimens, made no real attempts at control, had a sample of 1 cadaver and 2 Aikido buddies, they're right, even though their own evidences is inconsistent and best, if not outright contradictory?.?) Oh well, what did you think they were going to say? Let me guess, they need more money for further research too. (Don't they always?)
The only way for pain to radiate upwards from the wrist to be felt is via trauma to the radial and ulnar nerves, which extend up the entire length of the arm. The technique is referred to a wrist lock for good reason. As for "many of us becom(ing) quite immune to the aspect of it", well that's just about the least scientific, most subjective statement you can make. After all, who is "us"? You and your buddies who have some how managed to develop super powers and inhuman pain tolerance, which eludes the rest of us? If you really can't feel pain from a properly applied nikkyo, you haven't developed a new skill, you've developed nerve damage. Besides, I betcha nickle I and several other members here can make it work.
There is also no concrete evidence for their notion that "there is more of a gap between the bones" (gotta love that scientific lingo) as a result of exposure to nikkyo over time. Again, what was their sample size (1, 2, 3 whole people)?
This is pseudo-science at its best boys and girls. Stay away. Stay far, far away............

[allowedcloud]

Dependence on pain compliance is the lowest form of martial arts technique. As long as you continue to practice this way your partners will always be falling due to the need to escape pain (or the anticipation of pain), preventing you from advancing to higher level technique, where control is achieved by taking your partner's center...kuzushi, on contact, leaving your partner bemused as to how their balance is being broken - as they are not feeling any obvious compulsion (pain) to do so.

The pain caused by nikyo in particular can be easily cancelled out by someone who possesses a certain set of body skills, usually resulting in uke getting kuzushi on nage :). Also there are quite a few people where nikyo causes little pain at all, either due to "nerve damage" or other anatomical differences. I know a wrestler who was completely impervious to the pain of the nikyo pin. The guy's wrists were probably the same size as my hands. Depending on pain compliance to control a guy like that? No way, not on this Earth..

[Fred Little]

Mmmmmmmm! Popcorn!

[Chris Li]

Dependence on pain compliance is the lowest form of martial arts technique. As long as you continue to practice this way your partners will always be falling due to the need to escape pain (or the anticipation of pain), preventing you from advancing to higher level technique, where control is achieved by taking your partner's center...kuzushi, on contact, leaving your partner bemused as to how their balance is being broken - as they are not feeling any obvious compulsion (pain) to do so.

The pain caused by nikyo in particular can be easily cancelled out by someone who possesses a certain set of body skills, usually resulting in uke getting kuzushi on nage :). Also there are quite a few people where nikyo causes little pain at all, either due to "nerve damage" or other anatomical differences. I know a wrestler who was completely impervious to the pain of the nikyo pin. The guy's wrists were probably the same size as my hands. Depending on pain compliance to control a guy like that? No way, not on this Earth..

Personally, I felt that Shioda's comment that Ueshiba's nikyo...didn't hurt (I mentioned this further up the thread) is much more interesting than the pain stuff - which you can get at your local strip mall Tae Kwon Do place.

Best,

Chris

[Janet Rosen]

As for "many of us becom(ing) quite immune to the aspect of it", well that's just about the least scientific, most subjective statement you can make. After all, who is "us"? You and your buddies who have some how managed to develop super powers and inhuman pain tolerance, which eludes the rest of us? If you really can't feel pain from a properly applied nikkyo, you haven't developed a new skill, you've developed nerve damage. Besides, I betcha nickle I and several other members here can make it work.

Oh I'm SO SO SORRY that I didn't quantify and peer review my USELESS anecdatal evidence that I and many people no longer feel the electric jolt we used to. And I guess the term "lock" as in locking up the person's structure isn't what you mean by lock - I didn't realize "lock" meant pain compliance and I guess all the people on whom yonkyo doesn't work unless you actually lock up their structures, they just never felt a "real" lock either.
Fred, pass the popcorn.

[Fred Little]

Coming right up, Janet! Next batch is seasoned with ghee and truffle salt!

[Rupert Atkinson]

There is certainly a lot of spiritual waffle on nikyo here. If in doubt - keep it simple. Of course nikyo hurts. Martial arts are about destroying people. Get used to it. The pain in nikyo is about as bad as pain gets for most people and that's why we like it. Admit it. For me, a good nikyo is one that hurts like hell when on, yet afterwards, little to no pain lingers = no damage. That is good nikyo. And to have no lingering pain you have to find a way to do it with minimum force - that is the real skill.

[Mary Eastland]

There is certainly a lot of spiritual waffle on nikyo here. If in doubt - keep it simple. Of course nikyo hurts. Martial arts are about destroying people. Get used to it. The pain in nikyo is about as bad as pain gets for most people and that's why we like it. Admit it. For me, a good nikyo is one that hurts like hell when on, yet afterwards, little to no pain lingers = no damage. That is good nikyo. And to have no lingering pain you have to find a way to do it with minimum force - that is the real skill.

Martial arts are not for destroying people for me...I train for self-defense, personal development and fun. So speak for yourself. :D

Nikyo hurts some people and doesn't hurt others. I do like the pain of it and the fact that it doesn't cause harm but compliance.

[Janet Rosen]

There is certainly a lot of spiritual waffle on nikyo here. If in doubt - keep it simple. Of course nikyo hurts. Martial arts are about destroying people. Get used to it. The pain in nikyo is about as bad as pain gets for most people and that's why we like it. Admit it. For me, a good nikyo is one that hurts like hell when on, yet afterwards, little to no pain lingers = no damage. That is good nikyo. And to have no lingering pain you have to find a way to do it with minimum force - that is the real skill.

Sure it can hurt for a moment. Hell, it was learning to relax into nikkyo and accept the pain that taught me to deal effectively with pain IRL way better than before. But if you actually relax....it stops hurting.

[Keith Larman]

Coming right up, Janet! Next batch is seasoned with ghee and truffle salt!

Ooohhh, gonna have to try that.

WRT nikyo... Um... Pain. Control. Structure. Connection. Philosophy as to best approach to controlling a confrontation. And so forth. Lots to talk about. Lots to talk past each other about as well. So.... Carry on.

[lbb]

Pizza has tomato sauce. If it doesn't, it's not pizza and you aren't doing it right.

[Chris Li]

Pizza has tomato sauce. If it doesn't, it's not pizza and you aren't doing it right.

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to, but pizza bianca (white pizza) has no tomato sauce and tastes just fine to me. :D

Best,

Chris

[Michael Douglas]

This thread is suddenly good again so I'll subscribe by answering the long-dead original poster (if not dead, apologies ;) )
We are told that nikajo should not be painful in the wrist. This is a difficult effect to produce, but as uke, I have felt times when the only thing I noticed was my hip and knee collapsing--no pain response.

In the past I have felt budoka from different martial arts trying to apply this technique--nikyo, I believe, in Aikikai. I always thought it was supposed to hurt at the wrist, and the problems people always had were in avoiding collapsing the arm.

Does Aikikai try to produce pain at the wrist?
I have no idea what Aikikai tries. It is an governing organisation, no?.

for me Nickyo hurts, I apply it to hurt & control at the same time, and long training and/or genetics can significanly reduce the hurt from all variations of Nickyo.

[lbb]

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to, but pizza bianca (white pizza) has no tomato sauce and tastes just fine to me. :D


You're wrong. If it doesn't have tomato sauce, you're DOING IT WRONG. It may taste great to you, but there's no real pizza application there. It isn't valid pizza. You can delude yourself all you want, but if it doesn't involve tomato sauce, it is not pizza.

[allowedcloud]

You're wrong. If it doesn't have tomato sauce, you're DOING IT WRONG. It may taste great to you, but there's no real pizza application there. It isn't valid pizza. You can delude yourself all you want, but if it doesn't involve tomato sauce, it is not pizza.

Well, if the master chef who invented pizza always put tomato sauce on his, and was constantly telling his chefs to do the same thing.. ("That's not my pizza!!")...and if I am making a pizza and want it to be as authentic to the original as possible, then I'm going to put the sauce on it :D :D

[Chris Li]

You're wrong. If it doesn't have tomato sauce, you're DOING IT WRONG. It may taste great to you, but there's no real pizza application there. It isn't valid pizza. You can delude yourself all you want, but if it doesn't involve tomato sauce, it is not pizza.

The Italians seem to think differently (http://breadcakesandale.wordpress.com/2013/09/29/pizza-bianca-the-quintessential-roman-street-food/)... :D

(I'm still not sure what we're talking about)

Best,

Chris

[allowedcloud]

The Italians seem to think differently (http://breadcakesandale.wordpress.com/2013/09/29/pizza-bianca-the-quintessential-roman-street-food/)... :D

(I'm still not sure what we're talking about)

Best,

Chris

Heh. You know, after re-reading that exchange beginning with Mary's non-sequitor about pizza, it all seems really weird to me this attempt to hijack a thread about nikyo (which is outside of the Internals forum) into an IP/aiki debate, by someone who doesn't train IP/aiki. Gee..for all everyone moaned and complained back when nearly *every* thread turned into an IP/aiki discussion, you seem to want to *talk* about it anyway.

[tarik]

(I'm still not sure what we're talking about)



It should be <ahem> painfully obvious what Mary is talking about.

(please pass the popcorn) :hypno:

[Keith Larman]

Damnit, now I want pizza too. You guys are screwing up my diet! Sheesh.

Here's my answer. "It depends on whether you're Aikido right or wrong." End of discussion.

There, unwrap that and you should have a solution all the problems of Aikido.

You're welcome. :)

[tarik]

Damnit, now I want pizza too. You guys are screwing up my diet! Sheesh.


Nothing wrong with pizza on my diet.. I just have to count the calories if I want to keep losing. Of course, without red sauce, my pizza can stretch a little father.. :p


Here's my answer. "It depends on whether you're Aikido right or wrong." End of discussion.

There, unwrap that and you should have a solution all the problems of Aikido.

You're welcome. :)

I don't do aikido any more.. I study aikibudo. :p

[Keith Larman]

I don't do aikido any more.. I study aikibudo. :p

Well, my answer works regardless of what you're studying. Feel free to change out the domain any way you'd like. So with that difficult problem resolved, all that's left is getting back to actually training.

And finding a good slice somewhere for lunch... Hmmm...

[Rupert Atkinson]

Sure it can hurt for a moment. Hell, it was learning to relax into nikkyo and accept the pain that taught me to deal effectively with pain IRL way better than before. But if you actually relax....it stops hurting.

It is not until you relax into and learn to follow the pain that you can find a way out of it. Ditto other waza.

[Janet Rosen]

It is not until you relax into and learn to follow the pain that you can find a way out of it. Ditto other waza.

Agreed.

[Hilary]

The Italians seem to think differently (http://breadcakesandale.wordpress.com/2013/09/29/pizza-bianca-the-quintessential-roman-street-food/)... :D

(I'm still not sure what we're talking about)

Best,

Chris

My first response, given a perfusion of Milanos on one side of the family, is "they think differently about most everything". They also have radial pizzas, something different on every slice including a sunny side up egg. So while I really do like most of the pizza I get over there, some of it is a tad odd. And don't get me started about what you can eat at what time of day; an interesting combination of cultural anarchy and OCD. :freaky:

Edit: and thought they would never be caught dead admitting that these are pizza's, you have not lived until you have had a Barbarian from Conan's deep dish in Austin TX (if they still exist).

[lbb]

It should be <ahem> painfully obvious what Mary is talking about.

(please pass the popcorn) :hypno:

Thank you, Tarik :D

[phitruong]

would you people stop with the pizza already! it's just flatten dough and stuffs on it and wood fired oven. i still dream about the chicago pizza i had years ago. they don't make pizza like that in the south.

as far as nikyo goes, i just push my other hand near the wrist of being nikyo upon. methink, in taichi, the move called embrace tiger, pushing mountain or carry pizza, pushing beer. good luck trying to do nikyo on me after that.

[Michael Douglas]

I shall try "carry pizza" next time there's a Nikyo on me, thanks Phi.

[lbb]

Phi, you have your priorities messed up. You don't push beer, you pull beer, so as to have it nearer to you! Likewise pizza. Pull pizza and beer. And the pizza must have tomato sauce or it isn't pizza. The beer is tomato-optional.

[Hilary]

Phi, you have your priorities messed up. You don't push beer, you pull beer, so as to have it nearer to you! Likewise pizza. Pull pizza and beer. And the pizza must have tomato sauce or it isn't pizza. The beer is tomato-optional.

I am sorry to disagree with you on this one Mary. Prior to my wedding I spent countless hours utilizing beer in an extreme effort to find just the right tomato.

[lbb]

I am sorry to disagree with you on this one Mary. Prior to my wedding I spent countless hours utilizing beer in an extreme effort to find just the right tomato.

...giving an entirely new meaning to "tomato sauce". :D

[Anjisan]

Personally, I felt that Shioda's comment that Ueshiba's nikyo...didn't hurt (I mentioned this further up the thread) is much more interesting than the pain stuff - which you can get at your local strip mall Tae Kwon Do place.

Best,

Chris

Still, it is interesting to note that Mori Shihan who was-according to his webpage-the last Ushi-deshi for Shioda sensei and the fastest to 7th Dan in Yoshinkan seems to be applying Nikyo is a way that is utilizing at least some pain if the Uke's face and body language are any indicator. I don't know if I would say that he is utilizing the lowest form of martial technique and I can't speak to any involvement he may have had with Tae Kwon Do .However, he just seems to me to be really good. Perhaps, O-sensei was well.......O-sensei and not doing exactly what O-sensei did can still be really really good too.....................even nikyo..

http://youtu.be/ugsS2_Z0wpA

Train Hard,
Jason

[Chris Li]

Still, it is interesting to note that Mori Shihan who was-according to his webpage-the last Ushi-deshi for Shioda sensei and the fastest to 7th Dan in Yoshinkan seems to be applying Nikyo is a way that is utilizing at least some pain if the Uke's face and body language are any indicator. I don't know if I would say that he is utilizing the lowest form of martial technique and I can't speak to any involvement he may have had with Tae Kwon Do .However, he just seems to me to be really good. Perhaps, O-sensei was well.......O-sensei and not doing exactly what O-sensei did can still be really really good too.....................even nikyo..

http://youtu.be/ugsS2_Z0wpA

Train Hard,
Jason

And yet you have to note the OP (which isn't from a video analysis):


I am studying Yoshinkan. We are learning nikajo like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QchlmrPnidA
We are told that nikajo should not be painful in the wrist. This is a difficult effect to produce, but as uke, I have felt times when the only thing I noticed was my hip and knee collapsing--no pain response.


Which matches with Shioda's testimony.

Best,

Chris

[Anjisan]

And yet you have to note the OP (which isn't from a video analysis):

Which matches with Shioda's testimony.

Best,

Chris

However, there is this too from Shioda sensei's Dynamic Aikido:

"Nikajo is a technique directed at the elbow and the wrist and can be used to inflict much pain if applied skillfully' p.74

Train Hard,
Jason

[Chris Li]

However, there is this too from Shioda sensei's Dynamic Aikido:

"Nikajo is a technique directed at the elbow and the wrist and can be used to inflict much pain if applied skillfully' p.74

Train Hard,
Jason

and can be used to inflict much pain

Certainly doesn't say always. Sure, you can inflict pain - but that's not very interesting to me technically. Any store front Tae Kwon Do school can do the same.

Anyway, my experience with the Yoshinkan in Japan (which also isn't from a video or a book) matches the OP's in that respect.

Best,

Chris

[Mert Gambito]

Didn't watch all of the the Mori video, but the Nikkajo he demonstrates within the first 3 minutes of that video is different than the one in the video used as reference in the OP. In the OP video, the shite's hands are close together relative to most versions of this type of wrist lock, and can readily work together in a manner that allows the degree of pain from the lock to be varied (i.e. the hand not applying the lock can manipulate the uke's wrist and forearm like the tsuka of a sword, supported by vs. supporting the hand applying the lock, if the shite so chooses). Here's the close-up shown in the video: http://youtu.be/QchlmrPnidA?t=1m30s.

The shite also induces kuzushi by stepping forward to drive the forearm forward and down toward the uke's center as the lock's applied (again, the force can be transferred to the uke's arm primarily via the hand grabbing the wrist moreso than the hand applying the lock, if so desired).

These factors should allow the shite to execute the technique with little or no pain, if so desired, for demonstration purposes. And, based on my experiences taking ukemi for Yoshinkan practitioners, that is the case.

[Alex Megann]

These factors should allow the shite to execute the technique with little or no pain, if so desired, for demonstration purposes. And, based on my experiences taking ukemi for Yoshinkan practitioners, that is the case.

That is exactly the way Kanetsuka Sensei does nikyo ura - not surprising, given who his first teacher was…

All the Aikikai Hombu shihan I have come across, as well as Saito Sensei, tend to bring the hand into the shoulder to deliver the pin, even from shomenuchi and yokomenuchi. Kanetsuka Sensei's argument for not doing this (except where the attack is a shoulder grab in the first place) is that when the attacker has a weapon it is quite dangerous to bring that hand straight into the body.

Oh, and his nikyo is extremely effective, without inflicting much pain at all. The sensation is more of being knocked to the ground by a blow to the whole body simultaneously.

Alex

[Rupert Atkinson]

That is exactly the way Kanetsuka Sensei does nikyo ura - not surprising, given who his first teacher was…

All the Aikikai Hombu shihan I have come across, as well as Saito Sensei, tend to bring the hand into the shoulder to deliver the pin, even from shomenuchi and yokomenuchi. Kanetsuka Sensei's argument for not doing this (except where the attack is a shoulder grab in the first place) is that when the attacker has a weapon it is quite dangerous to bring that hand straight into the body.

Oh, and his nikyo is extremely effective, without inflicting much pain at all. The sensation is more of being knocked to the ground by a blow to the whole body simultaneously.

Alex

Just to disagree - If there were no pain, uke would not move, except to stop his wrist breaking. I think we get used to the pain and so think there is none. The danger is to kid yourself as to the reality. Sometimes, when I 'hear' or 'see' people teaching stuff, I just want to get up and ... eer ...show them how wrong they are. But alas, I am too polite.

[Chris Li]

Just to disagree - If there were no pain, uke would not move, except to stop his wrist breaking. I think we get used to the pain and so think there is none. The danger is to kid yourself as to the reality. Sometimes, when I 'hear' or 'see' people teaching stuff, I just want to get up and ... eer ...show them how wrong they are. But alas, I am too polite.

So...you never move unless there's pain? Even in Judo that's not the case, IMO.

Best,

Chris

[Anjisan]

Didn't watch all of the the Mori video, but the Nikkajo he demonstrates within the first 3 minutes of that video is different than the one in the video used as reference in the OP. In the OP video, the shite's hands are close together relative to most versions of this type of wrist lock, and can readily work together in a manner that allows the degree of pain from the lock to be varied (i.e. the hand not applying the lock can manipulate the uke's wrist and forearm like the tsuka of a sword, supported by vs. supporting the hand applying the lock, if the shite so chooses). Here's the close-up shown in the video: http://youtu.be/QchlmrPnidA?t=1m30s.

The shite also induces kuzushi by stepping forward to drive the forearm forward and down toward the uke's center as the lock's applied (again, the force can be transferred to the uke's arm primarily via the hand grabbing the wrist moreso than the hand applying the lock, if so desired).

These factors should allow the shite to execute the technique with little or no pain, if so desired, for demonstration purposes. And, based on my experiences taking ukemi for Yoshinkan practitioners, that is the case.

Nikyo whether applied by holding the wrist out in front of yourself or bringing it up to your shoulder is the same technique. What I am saying at least is that pain is Not the Primary means of control with this techniques, BUT it is a likely to be at least an outcome to some degree at some level, especially when done at speed, you know, real life, not the way demonstrated in that OP video or the other for that matter. Although the application by Mori sensei seems at least plausible. Outside of a demonstration or the friendly confines of a dojo nikyo will probably be put "on" at speed, because someone say will really want knock your teeth out and its not an academic exercise for them. They just want to hurt you so if they grab you anywhere, most likely their other hand is already on its way to your face. Connection with Uke's center, (yes) is the main mechanism for taking their balance and the same with Sankyo. However, while one could theoretically do it without any pain at a slow and controlled pace as in the OP video, its highly unlikely 8 out of 10 attempts in a real life situation.

Also, one must add in the flight or flight response that Nage in real life situation would most likely experience when applying nikyo in real life where your adrenaline in pumping through your veins and the precise sensitivity you experience in the dojo a slow speeds or static will be elusive at best unless of course such confrontations are common for you. I am sure that many individuals on this message board can site examples of how anecdotal evidence in their lives differs from what many practitioners and Shihan such as Shioda have said directly in their own words. Indeed, we are talking about an art not chemistry so one can Always go to that card, because at the end of the day there are no absolutes in the martial arts.

Train Hard,
Jason

[Chris Li]

What I am saying at least is that pain is Not the Primary means of control with this techniques, BUT it is a likely to be at least an outcome to some degree at some level, especially when done at speed, you know, real life, not the way demonstrated in that OP video or the other for that matter.

Frankly, I think that pain is likely in the case of just about any application in a "real life" situation - but that's not all that relevant to a discussion of technical methods, IMO.

Best,

Chris

[Rupert Atkinson]

So...you never move unless there's pain? Even in Judo that's not the case, IMO.

Best,

Chris

We're talking nikyo, right. Only the most painful lock on the planet ...

If you can control them with a nikyo shape without pain, all well and good, but why even bother with nikyo shape then ... just push them over using your off-balancing skill.

[Chris Li]

We're talking nikyo, right. Only the most painful lock on the planet ...

If you can control them with a nikyo shape without pain, all well and good, but why even bother with nikyo shape then ... just push them over using your off-balancing skill.

Well, that's the discussion, isn't it? If, as Gozo Shioda said and taught, Morihei Ueshiba's nikyo didn't hurt, then how would that happen and why would that be useful? Those are interesting questions for me.

I mean, why bother with any of this stuff if you're not interested in the details of how things work? Better to hit them with a two-by-four. :)

Best,

Chris

[Rupert Atkinson]

Shioda's nikyo hurt like hell. And he used to stand there laughing while his students writhed in agony at his feet. Something tells me, his students know how nikyo works.

[Chris Li]

Shioda's nikyo hurt like hell. And he used to stand there laughing while his students writhed in agony at his feet.

He certainly may have enjoyed doing it like that (he was something of a showman the times that I saw him in Tokyo) - but that doesn't mean that was the only way he ever did it, or that his statement about Morihei Ueshiba is any less interesting.

Best,

Chris

[Alex Megann]

Just to disagree - If there were no pain, uke would not move, except to stop his wrist breaking. I think we get used to the pain and so think there is none. The danger is to kid yourself as to the reality. Sometimes, when I 'hear' or 'see' people teaching stuff, I just want to get up and ... eer ...show them how wrong they are. But alas, I am too polite.

I understand what you're saying, Rupert, and maybe a little of that is happening too.

All the same, I know what I feel, and nikyo delivered by someone who does it the way we are talking about does feel very different from nikyo done by someone who is not controlling uke's body structure.

We were practising this very technique yesterday evening (funnily enough), and I was experimenting with which part of use's body I was controlling through the wrist. If you aim your technique at the wrist, or try to control the front shoulder, this relies on uke feeling pain in their wrist for effect, and you have little control on their body apart from this (especially if they have insensitive wrists). On the other hand, if I try to link the wrist pin with uke's rear shoulder, they go down with much less effort on my part, and they tell me they feel much less pain in their wrist.

Alex

[Rupert Atkinson]

I understand what you're saying, Rupert, and maybe a little of that is happening too.

All the same, I know what I feel, and nikyo delivered by someone who does it the way we are talking about does feel very different from nikyo done by someone who is not controlling uke's body structure.

We were practising this very technique yesterday evening (funnily enough), and I was experimenting with which part of use's body I was controlling through the wrist. If you aim your technique at the wrist, or try to control the front shoulder, this relies on uke feeling pain in their wrist for effect, and you have little control on their body apart from this (especially if they have insensitive wrists). On the other hand, if I try to link the wrist pin with uke's rear shoulder, they go down with much less effort on my part, and they tell me they feel much less pain in their wrist.

Alex

I know what you're saying too, and it makes for good technique. But I remain a realist and for me, that good technique offers a faster route to pain, should you chose to take it. The more choices you have the better.

[phitruong]

I know what you're saying too, and it makes for good technique. But I remain a realist and for me, that good technique offers a faster route to pain, should you chose to take it. The more choices you have the better.

folks have different ideas on what is good techniques. you have

good = lots of pain on uke but might or might not affect uke's structure/center/ability to counter

good = little to no pain on uke but affected uke's structure/center/ability to counter

lots of space in between. personally, i work toward the little to no pain approach. doesn't mean that i cannot cause pain; however, the pain that i can cause won't be localized to the wrist. it will be multiple places on uke body at the same time. sort of pain on sale, buy one gets two or three for free. :)

[Anjisan]

He certainly may have enjoyed doing it like that (he was something of a showman the times that I saw him in Tokyo) - but that doesn't mean that was the only way he ever did it, or that his statement about Morihei Ueshiba is any less interesting.

Best,

Chris

Agreed! However, that was Osensei that Shioda was speaking of after all and while most of us mortals strive to minimize the reliance on pain ( I know I have over the years)-- if pain does result, that doesn't make such an application of nikyo an inferior application. Perhaps less "interesting" to some but not inferior and perhaps just as effective depending like everything else on who is applying it and in what context.

Train Hard,
Jason

[Anjisan]

We're talking nikyo, right. Only the most painful lock on the planet ...

If you can control them with a nikyo shape without pain, all well and good, but why even bother with nikyo shape then ... just push them over using your off-balancing skill.

I agree with you but as I have said, I do try to minimize the amount needed to effectively gain control of Uke. Its all about connection, but pain will often be there to some degree if one ever has to leave the contrived and safe atmosphere of the dojo or the seminar. Plenty of Shihan seem to actively use at least some pain intentionally. I really don't think Shioda was lying in his own book. When I watch Seagal sensei apply nikkyo on video at least it looks like pain plays some role. Now not necessarily the primary means of gaining control but it appears to be there. I will say this, when I at least have experienced a high level Aikido instructor or Shihan apply nikyo to me, the unbalance me enough before they apply the technique and it goes on so fast and to such degree that you have No Time to counter it. And this is not even bringing utemi into the equation prior to applying nikyo which most of us do not want to rely on I understand.

[Chris Li]

Agreed! However, that was Osensei that Shioda was speaking of after all and while most of us mortals strive to minimize the reliance on pain ( I know I have over the years)-- if pain does result, that doesn't make such an application of nikyo an inferior application. Perhaps less "interesting" to some but not inferior and perhaps just as effective depending like everything else on who is applying it and in what context.

Train Hard,
Jason

That's cutting hairs a little fine - if I hit you with a two-by-four is it "inferior" to performing XXX technique? Actually, the result might well be "superior", but I think that most folks in Aikido would characterize it as "inferior" to XXX technique.

My point was, the pain part is pretty easy, so why spend that much time on it? It's not about minimizing the pain - it's about which mechanisms you choose to explore.

I think that it's a mistake to say that because XXX teacher did it nobody else can. I think that everybody should hope and expect to do as well as their teachers. That may or may not actually happen, but why deliberately aim low?

Best,

Chris

[charyuop]

I agree with you but as I have said, I do try to minimize the amount needed to effectively gain control of Uke. Its all about connection, but pain will often be there to some degree if one ever has to leave the contrived and safe atmosphere of the dojo or the seminar. Plenty of Shihan seem to actively use at least some pain intentionally. I really don't think Shioda was lying in his own book. When I watch Seagal sensei apply nikkyo on video at least it looks like pain plays some role. Now not necessarily the primary means of gaining control but it appears to be there. I will say this, when I at least have experienced a high level Aikido instructor or Shihan apply nikyo to me, the unbalance me enough before they apply the technique and it goes on so fast and to such degree that you have No Time to counter it. And this is not even bringing utemi into the equation prior to applying nikyo which most of us do not want to rely on I understand.

I've been away several years, but if not wrong this is a subject already touched. Due to my little knowledge I asked my sensei, since according to me it has to hurt.
When I told him that some people here said it shouldn't hurt he agreed at a certain extent. According to him it's up to uke. Sure you can make nikkyo hurt, but if uke follows the technique there is no need for pain. So basically pain gets involved when uke does not follow nikkyo.

And at this point I must say that I can witness it. I am not that great at ukemi, but for nikkyo I just used to go down on my knee and tap. Painful as heck. Sensei taught me that it's because doing that way I, not intentionally, create a resistance, I stop the natural flow of nikkyo. I started going all the way down to nage's side and the pain almost disappeared, it's more a pressure on the whole arm. Sure he can still make it hurt, but as uke I have (or better I should have) the skill to minimize if not get rid of the pain.

[allowedcloud]

I've been away several years, but if not wrong this is a subject already touched. Due to my little knowledge I asked my sensei, since according to me it has to hurt.
When I told him that some people here said it shouldn't hurt he agreed at a certain extent. According to him it's up to uke. Sure you can make nikkyo hurt, but if uke follows the technique there is no need for pain. So basically pain gets involved when uke does not follow nikkyo.

And at this point I must say that I can witness it. I am not that great at ukemi, but for nikkyo I just used to go down on my knee and tap. Painful as heck. Sensei taught me that it's because doing that way I, not intentionally, create a resistance, I stop the natural flow of nikkyo. I started going all the way down to nage's side and the pain almost disappeared, it's more a pressure on the whole arm. Sure he can still make it hurt, but as uke I have (or better I should have) the skill to minimize if not get rid of the pain.

Yea, but isn't that really the same thing as pain compliance? Uke is "moving with the technique" to escape potential pain, not because his or her balance is broken.

Anyway, it seems to be me that if I am causing uke pain this means I am applying pressure on the joint - which we are taught never to do. When I am practicing nikyo I always ask my partner if they feel any pain, and if so that tells me I am pushing in on them, and I try to lighten up.

I guess rather than a joint lock, I see nikyo as an application of aikisage - sending their force underneath and then returning it above. If there is pain involved in doing that then I'm screwing up.

[charyuop]

Unfortunately this is a question that only o'sensei can answer. Sure every shihan and sensei will teach their student the way they see it, but the way o'sensei thought about it, he only knows it. And chances are that it changed during his years of developing the art.
Nikkyo in itself as it was in daito ryuu and later on in aikijujitso was painful and it had to hurt.
Now, all I read about o'sensei, he never said he was against the pain, the idea was being able to control injuries to the opponent. I agree that in most cases the perfect blending and absence of pain makes your life easier. You create pain, you will have a reaction, no pain less fight. But nikkyo in itself does not create much fight if painful, because it tends to immobilized the opponent. I personally have received ikkyo, sankyo, kotegaeshi and more without feeling any pain, I just found myself on the floor. But for nikkyo the discomfort feeling close to pain was always there and it turned into pain of I did not full ukemi.
But I am curious to try your nikkyo to see how it feels with no pain.

[Anjisan]

That's cutting hairs a little fine - if I hit you with a two-by-four is it "inferior" to performing XXX technique? Actually, the result might well be "superior", but I think that most folks in Aikido would characterize it as "inferior" to XXX technique.

My point was, the pain part is pretty easy, so why spend that much time on it? It's not about minimizing the pain - it's about which mechanisms you choose to explore.

I think that it's a mistake to say that because XXX teacher did it nobody else can. I think that everybody should hope and expect to do as well as their teachers. That may or may not actually happen, but why deliberately aim low?

Best,

Chris

I certainly don't believe that one should spend a lot of time on the use of pain either however, it certainly seems to be a natural stage that most if not all go through when learning nikyo. However, when I said that I am working to minimize the use of pain that is because I am exploring the connection aspect of the technique but pain may creep back in. This is because one cannot always control all of the variables all of the time. Perhaps in the dojo with trained Ukes and at seminars but not always out in the real world.

So that begs the question of, if one can explore (and a worthy endeavor which I do as well) connection beyond pain in the dojo and seminars, to what extent does that translate to the real world? I see a lot of Kuzushi on contact talk on this blog which is one of the holy grails to be sure and worthy of transcending any factor of pain if one can get there. But just because one can be the master of the dojo and the captain of seminars doesn't mean it translates.

It could but, it is difficult to say. Like I said, once the flight or flight kicks in and you have a determined aggressive attacker pain may not be such a bad tool to at least have in the ol' belt or at least as a small byproduct. Kuzushi on contact is great in theory and worth of working towards but if you don't get in the real world, did you just trust your life to it in the parking garage or at the cash machine? That precise sensitivity like in the dojo may not be there. So if its academic study for academic sake that is worthy, but if it is to translate....I would love to see video of it. Besides, ill bet that many who speak of Kuzshi on contact and don't get it, what do think they will fall back on that is.......if they get the chance that is?

As for razing the bar we should be all doing that- we just have to try to identify what translates out of the dojo and seminar. Means of connection are something worthy of study (not necessarily the IS variety but I do) I'm just saying that for those of us which self-defense is an important element one needs to be careful so as to remain upright and breathing. Many of these Shihan like Osensei and others, this study is probably all they did. They did not have regular jobs, deep family commitments, etc so they could devote 80 hrs a week to get to a level where kuzushi on contact could be something they could trust their lives to.

[Rupert Atkinson]

I certainly don't believe that one should spend a lot of time on the use of pain either ....

I think Aikido is the Way of Aiki and while I agree with what you people on here are trying to say, with what you are seeking to do, I think it is never too wise to stray from the martial path. With aiki you can develop the craft to apply nikyo (with or without pain). Without aiki, you can do neither - all you can do is crunch it, like they do in most Jujutsu or Hapkido dojos. Zero finesse, if you like. Aiki is the finesse we seek.

My nikyo has uke on the edge of pain from beginning to end. It is 'on'. When finished there is no lasting damage and in fact, it should feel to be rather a pleasant kind of pain, but it is pain nevertheless. If you are trying to do it without pain you are just barking up the wrong tree. It is not the aim to create pain, the aim is to control uke with minimal effort - if possible - using his energy. Uke's reaction will create the pain, unless he is a good uke that has learned to go with the flow to perfection to 'escape' the pain. Thus, it is not your skill but uke's that creates the painless nikyo.

A lot if the Aikido I see is just plain garbage. Even more of what I hear. I have done Judo, wrestling, Jujustsu - all sorts - and am becoming tired of aiki-fairy imaginations. If you are barking up the wrong tree and you don't know it - well - how bad can that be. I guess you will find out when someone attacks you.

The waza we have allow us to recognize and work on developing aiki. At one end we have kokyu-nage to isolate and develop movement. At the other we can throw people over our heads - the only reason we don't break our necks is because we are good at ukemi. Don't confuse uke's skill with your own. Even if you learn to control uke with good aiki, it will be just useless dance unless you can follow it up with powerful technique. And you can only learn powerful technique by practicing powerful technique.

Just my 2c.

[Chris Li]

I think Aikido is the Way of Aiki and while I agree with what you people on here are trying to say, with what you are seeking to do, I think it is never too wise to stray from the martial path. .

Where did anybody talk about not being martial? I've seen plenty of soft, non-painful Aiki that's more martial than just about anything you'll ever see in in conventional Aikido.

Best,

Chris

[Anjisan]

I think Aikido is the Way of Aiki and while I agree with what you people on here are trying to say, with what you are seeking to do, I think it is never too wise to stray from the martial path. With aiki you can develop the craft to apply nikyo (with or without pain). Without aiki, you can do neither - all you can do is crunch it, like they do in most Jujutsu or Hapkido dojos. Zero finesse, if you like. Aiki is the finesse we seek.

My nikyo has uke on the edge of pain from beginning to end. It is 'on'. When finished there is no lasting damage and in fact, it should feel to be rather a pleasant kind of pain, but it is pain nevertheless. If you are trying to do it without pain you are just barking up the wrong tree. It is not the aim to create pain, the aim is to control uke with minimal effort - if possible - using his energy. Uke's reaction will create the pain, unless he is a good uke that has learned to go with the flow to perfection to 'escape' the pain. Thus, it is not your skill but uke's that creates the painless nikyo.

A lot if the Aikido I see is just plain garbage. Even more of what I hear. I have done Judo, wrestling, Jujustsu - all sorts - and am becoming tired of aiki-fairy imaginations. If you are barking up the wrong tree and you don't know it - well - how bad can that be. I guess you will find out when someone attacks you.

The waza we have allow us to recognize and work on developing aiki. At one end we have kokyu-nage to isolate and develop movement. At the other we can throw people over our heads - the only reason we don't break our necks is because we are good at ukemi. Don't confuse uke's skill with your own. Even if you learn to control uke with good aiki, it will be just useless dance unless you can follow it up with powerful technique. And you can only learn powerful technique by practicing powerful technique.

Just my 2c.

Rupert I agree with you! It's interesting, I was just speaking with a friend of mine who came up through the ranks with me and I was telling him that I like to keep Uke "on the edge" as well! haha! I strive to connect through the center and grab the whole person. Pain is usually lurking if not present. I have dealt with many individuals whom due to being on a substance don't react to pain so I am cautious and do not to rely on it. I guess it is there if I need it. The Uke is typically somewhat unbalanced prior to the nikyo even being applied. On the street a strike usually originating with my elbow would probably come into play as well. Love to attack the limbs ala Kali as well as it blends with Aikido techniqques but that is a different thread probably of the...... cross-training variety.

Train Hard,
Jason

[charyuop]

It might be because I'm student of one of Saotome sensei's students, but I get repeated constantly how important is to remain martial, and that doesn't mean lose aikido.
I think this video of Saotome sensei underlines the concepts in full. He blends but he can hurt at the same time. As I said I don't remember o'sensei ever saying pain is not aikido.
Saotome Sensei 2003 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ4ry_eyCLc&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

[Chris Li]

It might be because I'm student of one of Saotome sensei's students, but I get repeated constantly how important is to remain martial, and that doesn't mean lose aikido.
I think this video of Saotome sensei underlines the concepts in full. He blends but he can hurt at the same time. As I said I don't remember o'sensei ever saying pain is not aikido.
Saotome Sensei 2003 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ4ry_eyCLc&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

I'm fairly familiar with Saotome, he gave me my first couple of dan ranks - but except for a weekend when he passed through Japan ten years ago I haven't really had any contact with him since the last '80's.

In any case, I've certainly never said that pain is not Aikido. What I said is that the pain compliance part is:

a) Very easy.
b) Not very interesting, mainly because of (a).
c) Done by every store front martial arts kids class, which also contributes a bit to (b).

The non-painful variant that Shioda talks about is operating along some different lines, IMO. A number of people seem to think that this is a high level (maybe too high a level) thing - but that would just make it more interesting, to me.

I'm not particularly concerned about causing anybody pain, it just doesn't interest me much.

On a purely practical level, hit 'em with a two-by-four. It always works, is eminently practical, and can be done by just about anybody - which covers most of the arguments for focusing on the pain compliance aspects of nikyo.

FWIW...

Best,

Chris

[charyuop]

I'm fairly familiar with Saotome, he gave me my first couple of dan ranks - but except for a weekend when he passed through Japan ten years ago I haven't really had any contact with him since the last '80's.

In any case, I've certainly never said that pain is not Aikido. What I said is that the pain compliance part is:

a) Very easy.
b) Not very interesting, mainly because of (a).
c) Done by every store front martial arts kids class, which also contributes a bit to (b).

The non-painful variant that Shioda talks about is operating along some different lines, IMO. A number of people seem to think that this is a high level (maybe too high a level) thing - but that would just make it more interesting, to me.

I'm not particularly concerned about causing anybody pain, it just doesn't interest me much.

On a purely practical level, hit 'em with a two-by-four. It always works, is eminently practical, and can be done by just about anybody - which covers most of the arguments for focusing on the pain compliance aspects of nikyo.

FWIW...

Best,

Chris
Oh ok. You are looking for an alternate way to do nikkyo, it's ok. I assume at different levels, but we are all looking into improving our skills.
But I thought the OP question was more if a nikkyo has to hurt. I might have misunderstood the question.

[Hilary]

As for razing the bar

Intentional or best typo ever? Either way I love it.

For my two cents, the question of pain in nykyo or anything else is my stock answer "pain is a bonus not the objective, the objective is control". Other than a mechanism to induce uke to stiffen up and provide a better lever/connection, pain is the pretty red bow that completes our gift to uke.

In Our Dojo (TM :D ) we have dan level practitioners perform Ikyo , nikyo and sankyo off the forearm, without any wrist involvement as yet another variation of the arm arts. You lock the elbow, to control the shoulder to move the center, so in that sense I have a painless nikyo (I know that is not the version under discussion). What it does do is really help in identifying the mechanics/movements that lead to simultaneous lock and a steaming side of kazushi (also nice when your wrists have just had for the night).

Given that it is my understanding that nikyo is a family of wrist compression locks I find my curiosity piqued that some can do this without inducing pain.

[Hilary]

And that just got me thinking about a recent seminar with Toby Threadgill where he would take a same side wrist grab, in motion, rotate about the point of contact, wrap his hand around uke’s forearm and throw uke out uke’s back quarter. It was kazushi on contact, the momentary lock was essentially a vertical nikyo or nikyo/sankyo hybrid, and it did not hurt one iota. The arm was instantaneously locked, and the kazshi was so sudden and overwhelming the there was never really time for the lock to wrap to any painful stage, also the wrist was mostly bypassed after the initial contact. This ring a bell for anyone?

[Mert Gambito]

And that just got me thinking about a recent seminar with Toby Threadgill where he would take a same side wrist grab, in motion, rotate about the point of contact, wrap his hand around uke¡Çs forearm and throw uke out uke¡Çs back quarter. It was kazushi on contact, the momentary lock was essentially a vertical nikyo or nikyo/sankyo hybrid, and it did not hurt one iota. The arm was instantaneously locked, and the kazshi was so sudden and overwhelming the there was never really time for the lock to wrap to any painful stage, also the wrist was mostly bypassed after the initial contact. This ring a bell for anyone?
Does it look something like this?

http://hakkoryu-kennin.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/20140102_hakkoryu_dojo_0052.jpg

In Hakkoryu, this can be done katate or ryote, standing or seated -- with uke being drawn into a back fall, front drop or forward breakfall via the lock.

[Anjisan]

I'm fairly familiar with Saotome, he gave me my first couple of dan ranks - but except for a weekend when he passed through Japan ten years ago I haven't really had any contact with him since the last '80's.

In any case, I've certainly never said that pain is not Aikido. What I said is that the pain compliance part is:

a) Very easy.
b) Not very interesting, mainly because of (a).
c) Done by every store front martial arts kids class, which also contributes a bit to (b).

The non-painful variant that Shioda talks about is operating along some different lines, IMO. A number of people seem to think that this is a high level (maybe too high a level) thing - but that would just make it more interesting, to me.

I'm not particularly concerned about causing anybody pain, it just doesn't interest me much.

On a purely practical level, hit 'em with a two-by-four. It always works, is eminently practical, and can be done by just about anybody - which covers most of the arguments for focusing on the pain compliance aspects of nikyo.

FWIW...

Best,

Chris

Hit them with a two-by-four? Really? That is just plain silly Chris. I would tend to think that is going to result in a much more protracted entanglement with law enforcement and the court system than an uninteresting painful nikyo. I, like may others, strive to not rely on pain but connection (maybe not the IS type) however I do have pain copious amounts in reserve should it be needed. Also,

Inside the dojo and at the seminar where so many variables are absent or controlled one can eventually probably have a high degree of success applying painless techniques and there is certainly knowledge to be gleaned and appreciated from that. I'm not say that it is not worth studying or incorporating to some degree.

However, how well that fully translates to spontaneous in your face confrontations I'm not so sure. Shioda said what he said in his own book and pain seems to be ok with him, his description of Osensei not withstanding. Further, there many Shihan of "Modern" Aikido that seem to use at least some pain and yet also have real connection. Saotome, Seagal, Isoyama, Doran come to mind. Even though there are those out there (some whom might even be in some of these Shihan's organizations) that say "Modern Aikido lacks "true Aiki". Well, they seem to be doing really good Aikido by us novice types and their Aikido might even said to be interesting to boot.

Also, I don't see video where the person (or multiple attackers even better) just crumble on contact at full speed. Maybe its out there but I have not seen it and if it is, is it being done by someone under the age of 80? I mean if one can get there shouldn't one have a fallback in the interim so that one is attacked they can remain upright and breathing so to be able to continue to study the mystifying and interesting?

Train Hard,
Jason

[Chris Li]

Hit them with a two-by-four? Really? That is just plain silly Chris. I would tend to think that is going to result in a much more protracted entanglement with law enforcement and the court system than an uninteresting painful nikyo. I, like may others, strive to not rely on pain but connection (maybe not the IS type) however I do have pain copious amounts in reserve should it be needed.

The nikyo is just as likely (perhaps more) to cause lasting damage as the two-by-four, IMO, I doubt it will save you in the courts.

Anyway, and I don't know how many times I've said this already, there's nothing wrong with causing pain. I have no problem with it, just as I would have no problem whacking an attacker with a two-by-four. But the pain compliance version doesn't strike me as something that's worth spending a lot of time on - just as you wouldn't spend twenty years pondering on how best to whack a guy with a two-by-four.

I think that's the last time that I'll repeat that....

Best,

Chris

[phitruong]

I have no problem with it, just as I would have no problem whacking an attacker with a two-by-four. But the pain compliance version doesn't strike me as something that's worth spending a lot of time on - just as you wouldn't spend twenty years pondering on how best to whack a guy with a two-by-four.
Chris

Chris, hitting folks with 2x4 is alot harder than it looked. one could spent years on perfecting the art. you got to choose the right 2x4. the ones that came from young timber tend to warp and that messes up the swing as well as the strike zone. the old timbers tend to be gnarly with uneven weight distribution which would mess with the moment arm and strike vectors. then you need to figure in whether you use treated or untreated lumber. treated lumber tends to be better because it's smoother and the blood won't stick to it as much. Then you need to figure out what is the right length. too short it won't be affective. too long then you can't hide it in your coats. then whether you want a nail in it or not. and would it be rusty nail or regular nail or galvanized nail along with the right side and length. then you need to figure if you wear gloves or not while handling the 2x4. what kind of gloves? does skin, sheep skin, cow hide, deer skin, people skin, with or without liner, with or without thermal shieldding if you operate in the middle of cold winter of Chicago or New York or some place with lots of snow and ice. That were just materials consideration.

now you need to consider techniques to go with 2x4. do you swing it yokoment or shomen? do you tsuki first then either yoko or sho? do you go for the knee caps first so they can't run away which allow you to whack them in the head? do you hit from behind or front or sides or from below? do you kiai first, like "hey you!", then swing or swing first then say something after? do you deal with one or multiple buggers? do you go through their pockets afterward or get out of there as quickly as you can? do you yell "help" "help" while whacking the bugger or just be tall, dark and handsome about it? what sort of solo exercises you do with 2x4? do you sleep with your 2x4 to get a better feel for it? do you name your 2x4, like Betsy or Billy or god forbid Heather? do you take your 2x4 for a nightly walk?

as you can see, there are alot to consider about swinging 2x4. it takes years to master such art. lucky for you, i have extensive experience in this area. i am willing to do seminar at your place and expenses to show you the aiki2x4do. :D

[ChrisMikk]

What I said is that the pain compliance part is:

a) Very easy.
b) Not very interesting, mainly because of (a).
c) Done by every store front martial arts kids class, which also contributes a bit to (b).

The non-painful variant that Shioda talks about is operating along some different lines, IMO. A number of people seem to think that this is a high level (maybe too high a level) thing - but that would just make it more interesting, to me.

I'm not particularly concerned about causing anybody pain, it just doesn't interest me much.

I agree completely that the painful variant is not very interesting. In the Kenshusei Course at Mugenjuku Dojo, we practice only to achieve the non-painful variant.

After about 10 months of Kenshusei, I can perform the non-painful variant fairly consistently on the other course participants. Recently, we started attending ippan classes, and I seem to be able to perform it there, too, sometimes.

I am not ready to say I understand it even 80%, but I think I understand it enough to teach it to other people given certain commonalities in training. It doesn't seem like a particularly high level technique to me, but it is one that--as far as I can tell--requires Yoshinkan posture and body mechanics.

One problem with people's understanding of the non-painful variant seems to me to be that the most basic nikyo/nikajo technique taught is tachi-waza-katate-mochi, whereas the technique is much easier to understand from tachi-waza-kata-mochi and from suwari-waza-katate-mochi.

The keys to doing the tachi-waza-katate-mochi variant are correct maai and not using the arms/hands at all once you have grasped uke's hand/forearm. If you can keep these two elements and make a small shuffle with correct posture, the technique seems to work like magic.

I think correct maai is the real key, and this would explain why the technique is so hard for many people yet I can do it on my fellow students consistently. To achieve correct maai, you need to be able to intuit it in the instant you move the hands into position. This requires sensing uke in a way that most people can't do. Yet in the course, I can compensate for lack of intuition by learning the correct maai for my fellow students.

I would suggest to people trying to learn this technique from kata-mochi. If you get the point of having one hand on the wrist and the other near the elbow, you should be able to perform nikyo/nikajo by simply extending your spine without doing anything else. This isn't powerful enough to take someone to the ground, but it can be powerful enough to break their balance, which really is the technique, anyhow.

As for trying to define what nikyo/nikajo is, I have given up. Of course, I am still a beginner, but after practicing all the kihon variants, I have come to the tentative conclusion that nikajo is actually a name for a collection of techniques that don't all work in the same way, at least from a low level perspective. For example, karate-mochi requires that the arms move little or not at all, whereas in aya-mochi, the arm must cut. And hiji-mochi is a whole other beast that is basically just jujutsu. Or at least, I haven't been able to figure out where the aikido comes in. Further, there are non-kihon techniques that are just pain compliance, which is a fundamentally different mechanism from balance-taking.

[Anjisan]

The nikyo is just as likely (perhaps more) to cause lasting damage as the two-by-four, IMO, I doubt it will save you in the courts.

Anyway, and I don't know how many times I've said this already, there's nothing wrong with causing pain. I have no problem with it, just as I would have no problem whacking an attacker with a two-by-four. But the pain compliance version doesn't strike me as something that's worth spending a lot of time on - just as you wouldn't spend twenty years pondering on how best to whack a guy with a two-by-four.

I think that's the last time that I'll repeat that....

Best,

Chris

More legal trouble from applying nikyo than striking someone with a two-by-four?? Maybe in Hawaii but I can't see it anywhere else in the states.

I am certainly not suggesting that one spend a lot of time of the use of pain in any technique. Nowhere did I ever say that. However, using it in a real situation without some pain may not be that easy and the depth of the use of pain may be a little deeper than you are giving credit. That said, the original question was should Nikyo hurt? I have agreed that one cannot rely on pain, that it is sound to explore real connection ( I do with my sensei), but that pain in a real situation will probably show up to some degree. Further, given that most individuals don't walk around with a two-by-four nor usually have one easily within reach using pain seems to be the way most will go until the pain free version (outside the dojo that is at real speed against a committed attacker) is demonstrated. Hey if you (IS) folks want to put a version on video that one can do before 45 years of study in the conditions cited above I'm sure many would like to see it. If the painless version is useful primarily only in the dojo and seminar settings it certainly has value, but to many will be academic. Like you said raising the bar and who doesn't fully support that!

Train Hard,
Jason

[Chris Li]

More legal trouble from applying nikyo than striking someone with a two-by-four?? Maybe in Hawaii but I can't see it anywhere else in the states.

I am certainly not suggesting that one spend a lot of time of the use of pain in any technique. Nowhere did I ever say that. However, using it in a real situation without some pain may not be that easy and the depth of the use of pain may be a little deeper than you are giving credit. That said, the original question was should Nikyo hurt? I have agreed that one cannot rely on pain, that it is sound to explore real connection ( I do with my sensei), but that pain in a real situation will probably show up to some degree. Further, given that most individuals don't walk around with a two-by-four nor usually have one easily within reach using pain seems to be the way most will go until the pain free version (outside the dojo that is at real speed against a committed attacker) is demonstrated. Hey if you (IS) folks want to put a version on video that one can do before 45 years of study in the conditions cited above I'm sure many would like to see it. If the painless version is useful primarily only in the dojo and seminar settings it certainly has value, but to many will be academic. Like you said raising the bar and who doesn't fully support that!

Train Hard,
Jason

The guy in the post above yours can do it after ten months, not 45 years, and he's not an IS guy. It was never about pain, it was never about IS, and it certainly wasn't about legal standards. You're arguing about a lot of things that I've never argued about.

With that - I'm really out of this conversation.

Best,

Chris

[ChrisMikk]

With aiki you can develop the craft to apply nikyo (with or without pain). Without aiki, you can do neither - all you can do is crunch it, like they do in most Jujutsu or Hapkido dojos. Zero finesse, if you like. Aiki is the finesse we seek.

My nikyo has uke on the edge of pain from beginning to end. It is 'on'. When finished there is no lasting damage and in fact, it should feel to be rather a pleasant kind of pain, but it is pain nevertheless. If you are trying to do it without pain you are just barking up the wrong tree.

A lot if the Aikido I see is just plain garbage. Even more of what I hear. I have done Judo, wrestling, Jujustsu - all sorts - and am becoming tired of aiki-fairy imaginations. If you are barking up the wrong tree and you don't know it - well - how bad can that be. I guess you will find out when someone attacks you.

I agree with some of what you say. The painless nikyo/nikajo variant is a training tool that results from shite and uke performing their roles well together. I couldn't use the painless variant as a self-defence tool, although I can imagine that someone with much more training could.

However, I think you should look at the source of the pain. The pain comes from the wrist joint getting cranked. If you are doing an "on" technique just on the verge of pain (which I have also felt), it is coming from controlling the wrist joint without too much crank. So, as you say, finesse. This means people who are doing the technique without pain are not controlling the wrist, they controlling something else (hint: not ki). I.e., it is a fundamentally different technique. So you are arguing apples against oranges here, I think. The truth of this can be seen by comparing uke's reactions to the two techniques. A "good" uke responding to a good wrist crank nikyo will, from what I've seen, drop pretty much straight down by falling onto one knee. A good uke responding to a non-pain variant nikajo buckles at the knees first and starts to fall backwards before going down onto the knees.

I think you should also consider the history of aikido. As I understand it, aikido didn't develop from jujutsu per se but from a specific subset of jujutsu techniques that were designed to study aiki as an application. Ueshiba sort of isolated this direction of study and said, "hey, let's do this exclusively for a purpose other than mastering jujutsu." You are arguing for a return to the pre-aikido roots of aiki study, it seems to me. That's fine, but it doesn't make sense to study aikido, then, rather than a jujutsu.

[ChrisMikk]

Shioda's nikyo hurt like hell. And he used to stand there laughing while his students writhed in agony at his feet. Something tells me, his students know how nikyo works.

I have felt both painful and non-painful nikajo from Payet-sensei. As I stated before, I think these are almost different techniques.

[ChrisMikk]

In the OP video, the shite's hands are close together relative to most versions of this type of wrist lock, and can readily work together in a manner that allows the degree of pain from the lock to be varied (i.e. the hand not applying the lock can manipulate the uke's wrist and forearm like the tsuka of a sword, supported by vs. supporting the hand applying the lock, if the shite so chooses). Here's the close-up shown in the video: http://youtu.be/QchlmrPnidA?t=1m30s.

The shite also induces kuzushi by stepping forward to drive the forearm forward and down toward the uke's center as the lock's applied (again, the force can be transferred to the uke's arm primarily via the hand grabbing the wrist moreso than the hand applying the lock, if so desired).

These factors should allow the shite to execute the technique with little or no pain, if so desired, for demonstration purposes. And, based on my experiences taking ukemi for Yoshinkan practitioners, that is the case.

At one point this year, I also thought the key was to control uke with the hand that is on the forearm. However, this can result in simply using your arm strength to push uke to the ground (which is not aikido) or in collapsing the arm rather than locking it. The key is to (1) get correct maai with the hands in the correct position (2) step in without using the hands to manipulate anything and (3) stepping along the correct centre line. It doesn't work for me 100% of the time, either.

難しい , ね ?!!

[charyuop]

I don't know this sensei, but this is a video I had seen close to 5-8 years ago. Back then it scifi to me, now out is like "dang that is aikido, he did not give any secret there".
painless nikkyo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL2R8sfMPEc&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
However, at the same time it comes to me that yes it a painless nikkyo, but because he leaves uke free to run away. At the end of his nikkyo the connection disappears. So it is painless because uke is a good uke. If uke was someone really trying to cut nage's head off, would that nikkyo still be painless to be effective?

[Mert Gambito]

At one point this year, I also thought the key was to control uke with the hand that is on the forearm. However, this can result in simply using your arm strength to push uke to the ground (which is not aikido) or in collapsing the arm rather than locking it. The key is to (1) get correct maai with the hands in the correct position (2) step in without using the hands to manipulate anything and (3) stepping along the correct centre line. It doesn't work for me 100% of the time, either.

難しい , ね ?!!
As you said, the ability to use the technique in the painless manner de-emphasizing the lock that you described requires a cooperative / performing-roles type of ukemi. From a mechanical perspective, all three elements we've discussed -- the lock, the grab of the other wrist, and the step -- can be used in various proportions to achieve kuzushi and the desired result: uke falls.

Emphasizing the step and not relying on the mechanical advantage of the lock, to me, makes this an irimi-nage of sorts moreso than a nikkyo/nikkajo. In Hakkoryu we don't use these terms to describe this type of lock, but ultimately, taking into account the various opinions from aikido folks in this thread, a high-level practitioner should be able to execute the techniques along the same continuum as aikido: with excruciating pain (pain is expressly sought, for example, in the shodan-ge and nidan-ge that introduce variations of the technique and aspects thereof), no pain, or whatever's required in between to get the job done. That said, since the technique is introduced in suwari-waza (an example of which is in the photo in my previous post), stepping in would not be considered a prerequisite for executing the technique in any manner, pain notwithstanding.

[Alex Megann]

Here's the close-up shown in the video: http://youtu.be/QchlmrPnidA?t=1m30s.The shite also induces kuzushi by stepping forward to drive the forearm forward and down toward the uke's center as the lock's applied (again, the force can be transferred to the uke's arm primarily via the hand grabbing the wrist moreso than the hand applying the lock, if so desired).

These factors should allow the shite to execute the technique with little or no pain, if so desired, for demonstration purposes. And, based on my experiences taking ukemi for Yoshinkan practitioners, that is the case.

Watching that clip again, I noticed something interesting. This way of delivering nikyo is very similar to the way I am used to doing it. Anyway, if you look at the moment when the pin goes on, you can see that there is a moment where uke's arm briefly starts to buckle, before the rest of his body starts to move. I think that it is this "wave" of buckling that causes the pain in the wrist. Personally I try to avoid this kind of delay in application - my ideal is where uke's body is locked almost immediately, and you have a direct control over your partner's structure through the arm and shoulder skeletal system.

Alex

[ChrisMikk]

I want to put a big asterix next to all my recent posts. Today we had some free time after practice, so I revisited nikajo with Crampton-sensei and the other kenshusei. I think maybe what I've been doing is effective from training with the same people over and over. Crampton-sensei showed how what I'm doing is dependant on uke not escaping with flaccidity. Of course, by actually focusing on the wrist, you can keep uke from escaping with flaccidity. It's hard for me to assess because--as I intimated before--I think the technique relies on maai and using the knees and back correctly rather than the hands, and today my knees, hips, and lower back were having a rough time.

Anyhow, when the Kenshusei course is over in a few weeks, I will make a long post trying to explain how to do the painless variant as I understand it. Right now, I am think Mert's comments make a lot of sense, however.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I want to put a big asterix next to all my recent posts.
You made my day :D

[phitruong]

many many many moons ago, when i first met Howard Popkin, he was all smile and then we did same hand grab. he put the softess and smoothess nikyo on me (i have not felt from anyone since). my whole body structure was locked. my balance was broken. no pain involved. the freakest thing was i couldn't let go. he didn't even use his other hand to hold my wrist. just one hand and i couldn't let go. tried as i may, opening all my fingers, i couldn't let go. freaked me out. it was one of those WTF moment. it wasn't just me. he went down the line and got everyone. then we did the two hand grab, he put on a double nikkyo and both of my arms, got me shot forward on my toes, weight back, body crunch, locked up tight, and watch this coming.... no pain of any kind. then he said, while all smiling, "you know if i drop my arms your head would whip forward and down, then at the same time i raise my knee. mister head would meet mister knee." ok, for gentle reader, at this time, i was frantically trying to let go and get away. no dice. no can't go anywhere. lucky for him that he was a nice guy and let me out of the locks; otherwise, i would have hurt his knee. many years later, i paid him back by introducing some capsicin oilnment to his knee. :D

[Alex Megann]

One of the things I remember most vividly from seeing Yamaguchi Sensei back in the 1980s was the way he could do nikyo on you from katadori without using his hands. He did a little jiggle at the start, and then you felt completely under his control. There was no possibility of letting go, and your body was totally locked, even though the only physical connection between you and him was through the back of your hand tucked in the niche in his shoulder.

Alex

[Joe Jutsu]

I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of my nikkyo if I really, really meant it. No doubt about that.

[Mert Gambito]

I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of my nikkyo if I really, really meant it. No doubt about that.
http://www.spajournal.net/16/stretching-6.jpg

[Budd]

So, while I think it's great that people have these amazingly powerful nikkyos - it would be even better if people were dissecting (in my opinion) what were the body mechanics that enabled these things. Were they taking advantage of your "joining" with them? Were they exploiting holes in your structure? Were they taking your balance in such a way that you couldn't escape? Do you know how to do what they were doing now? If not, why not?? I'm not looking for buzzwords, hero worship or "my sensei's nikkyo can beat up your sensei's nikkyo" - how's it work?

For example - something I can do. I can lock up your structure with a nikkyo just using my structure (through the standard grip), but if I show you the trick of how to receive my structure with your structure, then it won't work the same way. But if I add additional jin vectors to the equation, it does work, until I show you how those work and how to receive them. Then if I add dantien driven work to the nikkyo, I can lock you up again and so on and so on. There's layers of sophistication that you can apply which make the technique such a good study (beyond wrist lock), but the "how's it work" bit should be paramount otherwise we're just admiring (or denigrating) each others' nikkyos.

[Hilary]

Hi Mert sorry for the delay in response. The picture you posted is exactly what I described. What I meant to describe was something different. But what you posted was better suited to the discussion at hand so I shut up for a bit (as my familiars will tell you that is not an easy thing to do, which was some profound ki extension on your part).

What you posted we don't really train as a formal technique, but I find myself reflexively going to this on occasion. Particularly if a same side technique is going south on me, I can often give a little whip of the arm while stepping and click into the right alignment to destabilize uke. If the lock is solid take them down, if it is transitory I enjoy the kuzushi and use the opportunity enter into another technique. I use a soft palm rather than the edge of my hand, but I think potato potahto applies here.

What I failed to explain in my original post, is nage's hand wraps the forearm from the inside in a vertical nikyo/sankyo hybrid (twisting the arm/qua open rather than closed) it still locks the elbow and shoulder and ends in a sumi otoshi-esque throw. Again, upon reflection, many would argue this is not even remotely related to nikyo due to the opposite direction of rotation (probably has it's own name), but I see some common principles; then again that is just my take. Your photo was more applicable to the discussion at hand.

[Mert Gambito]

. . . nage's hand wraps the forearm from the inside in a vertical nikyo/sankyo hybrid (twisting the arm/qua open rather than closed) it still locks the elbow and shoulder and ends in a sumi otoshi-esque throw. Again, upon reflection, many would argue this is not even remotely related to nikyo due to the opposite direction of rotation (probably has it's own name), but I see some common principles; then again that is just my take.

Hilary,

Thank you for clarifying! It would be interesting to see what the lock you intended to describe looks like, even if you can't exactly replicate the effect (at least at this time).

[CorkyQ]

I don't know this sensei, but this is a video I had seen close to 5-8 years ago. Back then it scifi to me, now out is like "dang that is aikido, he did not give any secret there".
painless nikkyo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL2R8sfMPEc&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
However, at the same time it comes to me that yes it a painless nikkyo, but because he leaves uke free to run away. At the end of his nikkyo the connection disappears. So it is painless because uke is a good uke. If uke was someone really trying to cut nage's head off, would that nikkyo still be painless to be effective?

Thanks for referring to my ancient video. In a way you are right, the nikkyo is painless because uke is a good uke - not a collusive uke, but an uke that is maintaining his attack to the central core. A committed attack is all that is necessary. At a recent seminar given by a direct student of Osensei I attended, the shihan in no uncertain terms recommended trapping fingers as the attacker could let go and re-attack, but I have found that the only reason for uke to let go in the heat of the moment is if his automatic defense system is triggered by nikyo applied as an attack. If for any other reason (he didn't really grab, he was just using the palm of his hand to push keep your appendage out of the way) ki no nagare connection to the attacker's center provides a self correcting point of connection - in other words it means some other resolution will appear rather than the thing we call nikyo - here is a clip addressing that very thing shot a couple of days ago.

http://youtu.be/25ZV3yhB_jY

Here is an earlier vid from a couple of years ago of one of my students initially regretting he'd never learned how to apply a painful nikyo: http://youtu.be/bVTeiifBbDU

[JP3]

If you are doing the technique all the way correctly, you can cause the structural collapse of uke without much, if any, pain at the wrist. If your technique is not quite "dead solid perfect" to use a golf reference, it can still be "effective" though it's more a pain-compliance thing, with the drawbacks therefrom.

[DaniArrow]

The better my ukemi gets, the less nikyo hurts me.

[sorokod]

I am sure this (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/vhV1Q8OXmh_Gy_MDv6aTr8GyS-veHGQNQHs-WoXG3Do?feat=directlink) didn't hurt a bit!

[jbelly]

i can appreciate a carefully applied little twinge and a slightly delayed burn.

[Adam Huss]

The better my ukemi gets, the less nikyo hurts me.

Still it's important not to go down before nage gets a chance to fully apply the technique, as that will limit his ability to learn.

[Adam Huss]

I've had Nikkyo applied to me hard enough to make me lose vision briefly...didn't hurt though.

[sakumeikan]

I've had Nikkyo applied to me hard enough to make me lose vision briefly...didn't hurt though.

Hi,Adam,
Did your glasses fall off or your contact lenses fall out during the nikkyo? Cheers, Joe

[Adam Huss]

No, I don't wear either. My body just moved from standing to crunched up ball quicker than my equilibrium could keep up. Not all that uncommon in drop throws, really.

[jbelly]

just remembered having experienced temporary numbness/paralysis of hand(s) during some of those long nikyo sessions.

[sakumeikan]

No, I don't wear either. My body just moved from standing to crunched up ball quicker than my equilibrium could keep up. Not all that uncommon in drop throws, really.

Adam,
Just having a little jest when I made my earlier remarks.I am sure you sussed that out.Cheers, Joe.

[kewms]

Still it's important not to go down before nage gets a chance to fully apply the technique, as that will limit his ability to learn.

Sorry, that's nage's problem. My first job as uke is to protect myself, and I'm not letting someone twice my size crank on my wrists until he convinces himself that he's got it right. I'll let the big guys play that game with each other.

Katherine

[Carsten Möllering]

The better my ukemi gets, the less nikyo hurts me.
Still it's important not to go down before nage gets a chance to fully apply the technique, as that will limit his ability to learn.
My first job as uke is to protect myself, and I'm not letting someone twice my size crank on my wrists until he convinces himself that he's got it right.
I understand that all of you practice nikyo in such a way that uke can decide to "leave" the contact by "going down"? Is this acutally possible for uke in your way of doing nikyo if tori does not want to let him go?

[kewms]

I understand that all of you practice nikyo in such a way that uke can decide to "leave" the contact by "going down"? Is this acutally possible for uke in your way of doing nikyo if tori does not want to let him go?

There are at least three versions of nikkyo being discussed here:

* Cranking on the wrist, making it a pain-compliance technique.

* The way I personally do nikkyo.

* The correct way. (Which I hope my version resembles, but which I don't claim to yet be able to achieve all of the time.)

In the platonic ideal of nikkyo, it is not possible for uke to break connection, but that's okay because his wrist isn't in danger of being injured. It is possible for him to gain some distance by dropping; how effective that is depends on whether nage chooses to let him go or not.

In the pain-compliance version of nikkyo, changing the relationship between uke and nage, whether by going down or by other means, takes the pressure off uke's wrist. That's one reason why this version is not actually all that effective.

Katherine

[sakumeikan]

Watching that clip again, I noticed something interesting. This way of delivering nikyo is very similar to the way I am used to doing it. Anyway, if you look at the moment when the pin goes on, you can see that there is a moment where uke's arm briefly starts to buckle, before the rest of his body starts to move. I think that it is this "wave" of buckling that causes the pain in the wrist. Personally I try to avoid this kind of delay in application - my ideal is where uke's body is locked almost immediately, and you have a direct control over your partner's structure through the arm and shoulder skeletal system.

Alex

Dear Alex,
i consider this waza suspect.Tori raises his arms too much.His upper body is open to a counter attack.Ukes post own ure is fairly strong here. Tori uses hand power alone,Nowhere does he attempt to pin ukes wrist to his shoulder joint.I would rather bring the man in towards me , having applied sufficient pressure on the Uke , and then do the pin.Cheers, Joe,

[Edgecrusher]

It hurts like mad crazy!

[Phil Van Treese]

Only if you break your wrist.

[Asou]

yes it hurts as it can be used to control the uke/victim. When the victim tries anything funny, you can just add the pressure until he taps out.

A flick of the wrist

KNEEL before Zodd!

[fatebass21]

I think if done correctly and effectively it will be at least slightly painful.