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Jareddw
03-21-2013, 08:55 AM
In "Meditations on Violence" by Rory Miller (a very sobering book by the way, and well worth the read), he describes the most important mental feature in a survival situation is having a Predator Mindset. The Predator Mindset is an all-out aggressive do what I need to survive mindset. Sort of turn the mental tables on an attacker, make them defensive. I agree with this in principle, but how does this fit into aikido? Can you have "aggressive aikido" and still call it aikido? Does it become aikijutsu then?

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. I've been wrestling with this for a couple days now, and would like to have other aikidouka (or aikidoist if you've read the other thread) weigh in.

Demetrio Cereijo
03-21-2013, 09:18 AM
Can you have "aggressive aikido" and still call it aikido?

Call it "proactive aikido". Problem solved.

Cliff Judge
03-21-2013, 09:20 AM
You can kiai in aikido, yes. You don't even have to do it with your voice. :D

Jareddw
03-21-2013, 09:33 AM
Thank you for the responses,

In our dojo we also have days where we show how atemi interacts with aikido (nage is doing the atemi).

But I guess I'm asking "if I WANT to hurt the attacker and not protect them with a throw" is that considered aikido? I know I have a universal right to protect myself, but should there be a desire to punish someone for attacking me? I know I'll do whatever I have to, to protect me and mine, most of which will look nothing like aikido.

Just food for thought (why are food and pennies exchange rates for thought?)

Demetrio Cereijo
03-21-2013, 09:40 AM
I know I have a universal right to protect myself, but should there be a desire to punish someone for attacking me?

Punishment is in the hands of the state. You have the right to defend yourself, loved ones, property, etc... but you do not have the rigth to punish the attacker.

lbb
03-21-2013, 10:35 AM
Although the term has been widely misappropriated, a predator kills for food. That's what a predator is.

bkedelen
03-21-2013, 10:50 AM
It is my opinion that OP may have somewhat misinterpreted Miller's conclusion, and I submit that an Aikido based survival strategy would operate in a fundamentally different way, and on a much larger scale, than the one briefly described.

Rory Miller, Marc "Animal" MacYoung and Lt. Col. Dave Grossman have each written volumes about the toxicity of violence and prioritizing avoidance, suppression, and escape over damage to the opponent and winning a confrontation. It is my understanding that the "predator mindset" is a trait necessary to for managing only a very narrow set of scenarios that is somewhat at the extremity of the situations one potentially faces.

An Aikido approach to strategy, in my opinion, may not be as applicable as we want in that space. From a big picture survival perspective, if you are in a position to need a "predator mindset" you have already fucked up big-time. That does NOT mean you shouldn't train those instincts and those situations. If you are going to take responsibility for your own safety, you may need some or even extensive training in that area. The point is that you should also be taking a variety of other actions to make that training an approach of last resort instead of an approach of first resort. Note that Fire, LEO and Military personnel don't have this luxury, and that is why their sacrifice earns my utmost respect.

This approach dovetails with the strengths that I (and I suspect most experienced Aikidoka) have developed through Aikido training. If you are knocked down you can get up instantly with your ukemi, if you are grabbed you can break the grab or simply walk away from it, dragging the other guy behind you, using your body skills, of you are attacked, you can step right through the heart of the attack and come out the other side running. Through Aikido training you develop a body that has below average offensive capability, but cannot be stopped by ordinary grabbing and hitting.

This approach also works very well with modern defensive tactics. If you are attacked outside your home, your best chance for survival is to proceed to your vehicle and use it to escape. If you are attacked inside your home your best chance for survival is to proceed to a safe room and barricade yourself there until help arrives. Your survival in either of these situations is jeopardized by going apeshit on an an attacker. It can safely be said that you should not even participate in the altercation at all.

Even though it might sting a little, the distinction between survival and winning is an important one for people who are trying to live a life without violence. Real defensive tactics is learning how to lose gracefully, how to acquire assistance from others, and how to architect a life where exposure to violence is minimized in every way possible.

bkedelen
03-21-2013, 11:14 AM
Ugh. Why is this thread in a/spiritual?

phitruong
03-21-2013, 11:46 AM
Agent 47: So, Inspector, how does a good man decide when to kill?

Inspector Whittier: If I think a man means to do me or my family harm I will do whatever I can to stop them. But beyond that... It's a crap-shoot.

hughrbeyer
03-21-2013, 11:53 AM
I'm with Mary. Calling the attitude these people are referencing a "predator mindset" is a category error.

aiki-jujutsuka
03-21-2013, 12:38 PM
as an aiki-jujutsu practitioner I just wanted to add my two pennies worth. Modern Aiki-jujutsu (such as Hakko Ryu & Dentokan) has a humanitarian goal akin to that of Aikido in its philosophy on violence and self-protection. Though atemi is emphasised more, atemi is always employed more as a distraction, such as a mitsubushi rather than as a knock out blow. The Jujutsu technique is paramount, to incapacitate your attacker through immediate pain compliance rather than cause permanent injury. Hakko Ryu's philosophy is no challenge, no resistance, no injury. The art is designed to equip practitioners with the skillset to defend themselves safely and maintain control of their emotions.

graham christian
03-21-2013, 02:20 PM
Removing the smoke you're asking is Aikido the art of hunting and killing, or even developing mindset of hunter/killer.

I think there's not much to ponder on there.

Peace,G,

Rob Watson
03-21-2013, 03:12 PM
But I guess I'm asking "if I WANT to hurt the attacker and not protect them with a throw" is that considered aikido?
No. At some point it may well come to pass that in order to meet the high standard of loving protection for all things one may HAVE to hurt but WANT is a different ball of wax.
I know I have a universal right to protect myself, but should there be a desire to punish someone for attacking me?
Desire results in suffering and that is best avoided. A desire to punish is pretty low level of personal development so please redouble your efforts to clear these problems.
I know I'll do whatever I have to, to protect me and mine, most of which will look nothing like aikido.
If you are so well and able to predict the future then there is no need for aikido. Please put your gift to a more positive purpose.

aiki-jujutsuka
03-21-2013, 03:43 PM
interesting article on aikidojournal.com that seems to address many of the same issues in this thread.

http://members.aikidojournal.com/public/self-defense-defense-against-ones-self/

My favourite paragraph:

"One of the first things we learned in Aikido is to relax the body and calm the mind. To get the most out of training, we do not deny the uke is attacking and we do not tell them how they should attack. The Aiki way is to greet the attack, accept it, and blend with it. We redirect rather than resist. We take balance with finesse rather than by force. We attempt to control the situation and do no harm."

Krystal Locke
03-21-2013, 03:49 PM
Ugh. Why is this thread in a/spiritual?

Why not?

graham christian
03-21-2013, 04:15 PM
Why not?

Mind is not spirit. That's basically why not. Mindset is mind therefor mental.

Peace.G.

SeiserL
03-21-2013, 04:26 PM
interesting article on aikidojournal.com that seems to address many of the same issues in this thread.

http://members.aikidojournal.com/public/self-defense-defense-against-ones-self/

My favourite paragraph:

"One of the first things we learned in Aikido is to relax the body and calm the mind. To get the most out of training, we do not deny the uke is attacking and we do not tell them how they should attack. The Aiki way is to greet the attack, accept it, and blend with it. We redirect rather than resist. We take balance with finesse rather than by force. We attempt to control the situation and do no harm."

There is a time to protect ourselves from ourselves.
There is a time to protect others from ourselves.
There is a time to protect ourselves from others.
There is a time to protect others from others.

There is a time to go on the growl and prowl.

Serenity/wisdom is knowing the difference.

Aikibu
03-21-2013, 08:48 PM
You know...Just because some dude writes a book does not mean...

A. He's right
B. He's an authority on "he's right"
C. That his premise has anything to do with Budo much less Aikido.

Martial Awareness is not a "Predator Mindset" and if you think it is then you're liable to set your practice back many years trying to correct this 'philosophy".

Now I will say learning to relax under duress, and respond appropriately to any attack (as Lynn hints at within or outside of your "self") to restore (in Aikido's case) "Harmony" is my understanding of Martial Awareness. All the "Predator Mindset" ever did for me was cause more pain and despair.

Been There Done That.

William Hazen

Janet Rosen
03-22-2013, 01:09 AM
You know...Just because some dude writes a book does not mean...

A. He's right
B. He's an authority on "he's right"
C. That his premise has anything to do with Budo much less Aikido.

Martial Awareness is not a "Predator Mindset" and if you think it is then you're liable to set your practice back many years trying to correct this 'philosophy".


What he said.

SeiserL
03-22-2013, 05:58 AM
All the "Predator Mindset" ever did for me was cause more pain and despair. Been There Done That.

Ditto.

Yet, there is a time and place (that most people will never thankfully know) where becoming and being a predator is the most loving and protective thing we can do. But then you have to live with it.

Krystal Locke
03-22-2013, 06:29 AM
Mind is not spirit. That's basically why not. Mindset is mind therefor mental.

Peace.G.

Back to defining spirit (mind, for that matter) and showing it exists as something distinct from body.....

Basia Halliop
03-22-2013, 07:58 AM
'Predator mindset' = track down, stalk, pounce, and kill... That's basically an assassin, which is stretching the concept of 'self defense' to an Orwellian degree.

An analogy I've heard that I like better is a cornered cat. Like the intro on this website (www.corneredcat.com - I'm not actually into guns, but if was, seems like a decent website).

"The most dangerous place I ever stood was between a cornered cat and an open door. When a cat feels threatened, she gets away from the danger as quickly as she can. She doesn’t care what damage she inflicts on her way to safety, but she’s not interested in fighting for fighting’s sake. She does only as much as she needs to do in order to escape. She doesn’t deal in revenge. If she feels threatened, she simply leaves. Efficiently."

The cat in this scenario couldn't care less who 'wins', but it will climb/slash/twist/claw/leap over you or through you, whatever it needs to get to the door.

graham christian
03-22-2013, 07:59 AM
Back to defining spirit (mind, for that matter) and showing it exists as something distinct from body.....

That's too easy. Those who hold the idea of it's all the same and their just interchangeable words and it's yet to be proved etc. don't want to know.

So it's no wonder to me that so many 'think' they can understand Ueshiba for example and yet still say the above.

Not just in Aikido but in life too, it's always a source of amusement to me. You got araes of life which are the domain of spirit or spiritual well being called Religion yet generally full of experts who don't even want to know the difference. You got areas to do with mind yet full of people and experts who can't even define one or have ever seen one. A crazy old world;)

Peace.G.

graham christian
03-22-2013, 08:10 AM
I don't see any time or place where being predator is the most loving thing to do Lynn.

Separately though I suppose it's best to throw away the predator mindset notion and get back to reality of Aikido and just stick with there is only one basic mindset which everyone debates as to what it is and that is the budo mindset.

Mmmmmmm.....there again after seeing all the multitudes of what even that means I think I'll stick to just learn bit by bit the five minds of budo and how they apply in Aikido. All else to do with mindsets is pretty irrelevant to me.

Peace.G.

phitruong
03-22-2013, 09:17 AM
Now I will say learning to relax under duress, and respond appropriately to any attack (as Lynn hints at within or outside of your "self") to restore (in Aikido's case) "Harmony" is my understanding of Martial Awareness. All the "Predator Mindset" ever did for me was cause more pain and despair.


i liked this. and not just aikido, but any martial arts. the key words here are "respond appropriately".

phitruong
03-22-2013, 09:22 AM
just learn bit by bit the five minds of budo and how they apply in Aikido. All else to do with mindsets is pretty irrelevant to me.


five minds of budo? is that eating, drinking, dancing, partying and carousing? wait, some of those might be redundant. maybe if throwing - becoming public nuisance after a night of partying and carousing? :)

hughrbeyer
03-22-2013, 09:49 AM
Okay, having dumped satisfactorily on the stupid initial quite, maybe it's worthwhile mining it for the kernel of truth it holds.

"Predator" is maybe wrong. But in a physical encounter, on the mat or off, you can't be tentative. You can't see what happens. You have to be absolutely without doubt that, whatever happens to the other guy, you're going to be on your feet at the end.

graham christian
03-22-2013, 10:03 AM
five minds of budo? is that eating, drinking, dancing, partying and carousing? wait, some of those might be redundant. maybe if throwing - becoming public nuisance after a night of partying and carousing? :)

Ha, ha, very good. Now which mind did that come from?;)

Peace.G.

graham christian
03-22-2013, 10:06 AM
Okay, having dumped satisfactorily on the stupid initial quite, maybe it's worthwhile mining it for the kernel of truth it holds.

"Predator" is maybe wrong. But in a physical encounter, on the mat or off, you can't be tentative. You can't see what happens. You have to be absolutely without doubt that, whatever happens to the other guy, you're going to be on your feet at the end.

Or maybe whatever happens in the end we're both gonna be o.k.:)

Peace.G.

Keith Larman
03-22-2013, 10:21 AM
In "Meditations on Violence" by Rory Miller (a very sobering book by the way, and well worth the read), he describes the most important mental feature in a survival situation is having a Predator Mindset. The Predator Mindset is an all-out aggressive do what I need to survive mindset. Sort of turn the mental tables on an attacker, make them defensive. I agree with this in principle, but how does this fit into aikido? Can you have "aggressive aikido" and still call it aikido? Does it become aikijutsu then?

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. I've been wrestling with this for a couple days now, and would like to have other aikidouka (or aikidoist if you've read the other thread) weigh in.

While I truly dislike the term predator for the reasons others have already expressed, there is something about how one "does one's thing" during certain types of confrontations (as in a full blown "we're fighting for our safety/lives now" scenario). It's been a while since I read the referenced work, but my take on it wasn't that one becomes a predator or all out aggressive, but a recognition of the concepts brought out with vastly more clarity by Colonel John Boyd with his notion of the OODA loop in combat. Be it flying a jet or coming to blows with an empty handed attacker.

Wikipedia has a superficial but relatively useful section on the topic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

Back to the shadows for me.

Janet Rosen
03-22-2013, 11:06 AM
'Predator mindset' = track down, stalk, pounce, and kill... That's basically an assassin, which is stretching the concept of 'self defense' to an Orwellian degree.

An analogy I've heard that I like better is a cornered cat. Like the intro on this website (www.corneredcat.com - I'm not actually into guns, but if was, seems like a decent website).
.

There's a good reason my totem is the badger :)

lbb
03-22-2013, 11:44 AM
I'm glad William posted that comment. Honestly, the modern romanticization of the word "predator" absolutely gives me a rash. A predator is an animal that kills to eat, not in self-defense, and certainly not because it's bored or drunk or wants to dominate or is just feeling mean. If you're going to engage in aggressive behavior, then own your reasons for doing so, and don't try to dress it up in a sexy label.

Rob Watson
03-22-2013, 12:32 PM
Mind is not spirit. That's basically why not. Mindset is mind therefor mental.

Peace.G.

Mind/body/spirit/more are all one ... otherwise there is trouble. Are you advocating creating trouble by insisting on separating mind/spirit?

TAMANinja
03-22-2013, 12:36 PM
I find it interesting that a solid number of people seem to find the term predator and judge it as a negative. Is a lion evil-not-good-worthy-of-judgement for hunting gazelles, wolves stalking deer, sharks eating seals etc. etc. In my mind, being a predator and having a predator's mindset who hunts to maintain his own life is very different from a murderer or one with a murderous intent.

Recently, I was on the sidewalk about 10 feet in front of my apartment around 11 PM on a Sunday night, when I noticed 2 guys walking down the street towards me. I took note of them and continued smoking my cigarette (have since quit - again). When they were within about 20 feet of my the smaller of the 2 dudes (5'9 average sized guy) moves into the street and starts circling to my front asking non-sense questions while his large (I'm not a small guy and this dude looked like all he's done for 35 years was swing a sledgehammer) friend hugged the inside of the sidewalk and started to circle toward my back. As he did this, I circled keeping the smaller guy in between me and big guy and kept telling them the liquor store was closed (they didn't seem/act drunk and frankly appeared to be just trying to distract me) and this whole time the big guys keeps trying to get behind me and I just kept circling, kept myself ready for anything, but didn't back down. Eventually, there came a sort of moment of truth where they had to decide if they wanted to try to jump a fully aware person without the cheap shot/bear hug from behind they had planned and they ended up walking away.

I would say this was due to what could be called a predator's mindset(warrior's intent I called it shortly after the incident). There was sort of a "I see you" moment where they saw that I wasn't prey I had claws, teeth, fangs and fist and while they might ultimately win it wasn't worth it and moved along. To me, this is in the spirit of Aikido - I don't recall who said it or where, but I believe there's a saying with regard to Aikido where you can defeat your opponent with a glance. Which in a way sort of happened, if I had been meek, defensive, and prey-like there's no doubt in my mind they would have jumped me and either they or I or more likely both, would have come out worse for wear.

That being said, I'm totally in awe of how I actually pulled it off, adrenaline was pumping, heart racing, but I was able to keep a mask of calm-equanimity, at least until they were 100 yards away and I was safe inside shaking with adrenaline for like 5 hours. It's a weird thing how training can kick in when you least expect it.

FYI only been doing Aikido for a few months but have trained a different martial art for a couple of years.

graham christian
03-22-2013, 12:40 PM
Mind/body/spirit/more are all one ... otherwise there is trouble. Are you advocating creating trouble by insisting on separating mind/spirit?

Roof, doors, windows, walls are all part of one house. I advocate walking through the door and looking through the windows or you will find yourself in trouble.

Peace.G.

SeiserL
03-22-2013, 01:45 PM
I don't see any time or place where being predator is the most loving thing to do Lynn.
Then you have certainly lived a nicer life than I have.

A predator may be protective of the people they love by going after the people who may threaten them.

Ask any soldier/veteran.

mathewjgano
03-22-2013, 02:16 PM
In "Meditations on Violence" by Rory Miller (a very sobering book by the way, and well worth the read), he describes the most important mental feature in a survival situation is having a Predator Mindset. The Predator Mindset is an all-out aggressive do what I need to survive mindset. Sort of turn the mental tables on an attacker, make them defensive. I agree with this in principle, but how does this fit into aikido? Can you have "aggressive aikido" and still call it aikido? Does it become aikijutsu then?

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. I've been wrestling with this for a couple days now, and would like to have other aikidouka (or aikidoist if you've read the other thread) weigh in.

I haven't read the whole thread yet so please forgive me for any redundancy.
While I haven't read the book, I've heard similar ideas about who tends to survive in an emergency and regardless of the connotations we might include with the term "Predator," it's this self-protective mindset which I'm guessing is being addressed. I think "doing what I need to survive" is different than "doing what I want to survive," and that difference of intention might be the difference between Aikido and non-Aikido responses to a situation (to be clear: not that anything non-Aikido would be in the "wanting to" category).
My own personal view, incomplete though it may be, is that there might be cases where I would choose to hurt someone. I wouldn't want to, but if it meant the safety of my kids, for example, I would technically want to disable multiple attackers (as a somewhat extreme example) in the quickest way possible. If I didn't perceive a need and wanted to, then it doesn't sound like Ueshiba Aikido as I've come to perceive it.
For me, the moral nature of this question puts it firmly in the spiritual realm. When we stare long into the abyss (e.g. contemplate violence and prepare for its potentiality) what are we doing? How do we consider these things without being shaped by them in a negative way? Isn't that somewhat the essence of reconciling violence: reconciling it (the impulses which give rise to it) within yourself first?

graham christian
03-22-2013, 03:49 PM
Then you have certainly lived a nicer life than I have.

A predator may be protective of the people they love by going after the people who may threaten them.

Ask any soldier/veteran.

Ask any paranoid, that's what they do.

Protection is protection and hunting is hunting, one is not the other. Actually you should know as you have had to pick up the pieces of those war vets with mental problems. They too thought 'predator' was right.

Going to meet and face the enemy doesn't equal hunting. The enemy only hides when you he thinks your out to harm. So if you go find the enemy and change his mind then there's no enemy, just friends. Or even Aikido;)

Peace.G.

Janet Rosen
03-22-2013, 03:59 PM
I find it interesting that a solid number of people seem to find the term predator and judge it as a negative. Is a lion evil-not-good-worthy-of-judgement for hunting gazelles, wolves stalking deer, sharks eating seals etc. etc. In my mind, being a predator and having a predator's mindset who hunts to maintain his own life is very different from a murderer or one with a murderous intent.

Recently, I was on the sidewalk about 10 feet in front of my apartment around 11 PM on a Sunday night, when I noticed 2 guys walking down the street towards me. I took note of them and continued smoking my cigarette (have since quit - again). When they were within about 20 feet of my the smaller of the 2 dudes (5'9 average sized guy) moves into the street and starts circling to my front asking non-sense questions while his large (I'm not a small guy and this dude looked like all he's done for 35 years was swing a sledgehammer) friend hugged the inside of the sidewalk and started to circle toward my back. As he did this, I circled keeping the smaller guy in between me and big guy and kept telling them the liquor store was closed (they didn't seem/act drunk and frankly appeared to be just trying to distract me) and this whole time the big guys keeps trying to get behind me and I just kept circling, kept myself ready for anything, but didn't back down. Eventually, there came a sort of moment of truth where they had to decide if they wanted to try to jump a fully aware person without the cheap shot/bear hug from behind they had planned and they ended up walking away.

I would say this was due to what could be called a predator's mindset(warrior's intent I called it shortly after the incident). There was sort of a "I see you" moment where they saw that I wasn't prey I had claws, teeth, fangs and fist and while they might ultimately win it wasn't worth it and moved along. To me, this is in the spirit of Aikido - I don't recall who said it or where, but I believe there's a saying with regard to Aikido where you can defeat your opponent with a glance. Which in a way sort of happened, if I had been meek, defensive, and prey-like there's no doubt in my mind they would have jumped me and either they or I or more likely both, would have come out worse for wear.
.

Great action and example. And I've done this type of thing many times in the decades before I came to aikido (New Yorker). But I don't equate RECOGNIZING predators and using body language to deter them with BEING or CHANNELING the spirit of a predator. Two different things.

SeiserL
03-22-2013, 03:59 PM
Actually you should know as you have had to pick up the pieces of those war vets with mental problems. They too thought 'predator' was right.
I am one of those predators!

graham christian
03-22-2013, 04:01 PM
I am one of those predators!

Am or was?

lbb
03-22-2013, 04:11 PM
I find it interesting that a solid number of people seem to find the term predator and judge it as a negative.

I believe your reading is incorrect. I, at least, find nothing negative in the term "predator"; it's the common usage of the term that I find objectionable. People romanticize the predators of the animal world (frequently mis-identifying them - sharks, for example, are arguably much more scavengers than predators), and then apply the term "predator" to humans given to aggression whose methods and motives are entirely different. That's the problem.

Basia Halliop
03-22-2013, 04:24 PM
I don't have any negative connotations with hunting - humans do act as predators when we track and hunt, e.g., where I grew up some people hunted deer and brought home the meat for their families.

Predation of humans towards other humans is assassination, though. People can and do make moral arguments that there are times when assassination is justifiable and prevents a much greater harm (for example in some wartime scenarios), but it's a very specific form of aggression, different from other kinds of aggression and different from a survival instinct or hyperawareness or single mindedness.

I don't like to see words thrown around seemingly at random. It just causes confusion and is misleading.

graham christian
03-22-2013, 04:54 PM
The thread started with the question of predator mindset in Aikido. In Aikido? No.

Now I would say that was also a message given by O'Sensei.

First let me say this: Some so far have said either that they have been a predator or brought up with those who hunt deer or whatever. We are in a world where hunting is part of life or a big part of some peoples lives. So you can say you have no negative connotations to it or that it's 'normal' or even survival in certain circumstances but does that make it good or even right?

I say no myself.

Here's an interesting look for those interested. I'll use history in this little 'story'.

Way back when humans were pretty dumb they were basically hunter gatherers. This predator mindset was the way of survival and as usual used for war too and taking lands etc. However, at certain times in history, even the times of great change and advancement in Japan for example in as far as civilization and harmonious progress are concerned we find the cause of this explosion of positive change being not war or anything from that mindset but from new ways of farming. New ways of doing things which benefited everyone. There lie the great changes.

A fella by the name of Buddha came along once and brought a new way of looking at things along with a new way of behaving and that soon spread across more than a third of the world and brought an explosion of more harmonious and civilized progress for humans. One religion which spread and influenced for the better yet with a difference.....it didn't spread by war or conquest or that type of mindset.

Just sayin;)

Peace.G.

Rob Watson
03-22-2013, 05:15 PM
Way back when humans were pretty dumb they were basically hunter gatherers.

Please stick to your own experience. Your grasp of anthropology is plainly limited.

graham christian
03-22-2013, 05:24 PM
Please stick to your own experience. Your grasp of anthropology is plainly limited.

You think so? The humanities......I have quite a grasp on that subject thank you and it includes the subject of the history of inhumanities.

Humans were very dumb and as yet are still quite dumb. Lucky things like Aikido come along to show there are better ways of doing things.

Peace.G.

Aikibu
03-23-2013, 03:13 AM
I believe your reading is incorrect. I, at least, find nothing negative in the term "predator"; it's the common usage of the term that I find objectionable. People romanticize the predators of the animal world (frequently mis-identifying them - sharks, for example, are arguably much more scavengers than predators), and then apply the term "predator" to humans given to aggression whose methods and motives are entirely different. That's the problem.

Yup :)...and lets be clear and call a spade a spade here. Most predators in Nature attack the weak, sick, injured and vulnerable. They use Ambush tactics and try to overwhelm their prey. For them it's not only about life and death...it's about their next meal. There is absolutely no nobility to it that I can see.

Martial Awareness and the spirit of Budo as expressed in Aikido and other Martial Arts is a higher ethical bar which only uses killing as an absolute last resort.

As related in the story above; It was this Martial Awareness that kept our friend out of trouble and his attackers who used the "predator mindset". Like all predators in nature when confronted with something other than easy prey they moved on, even though they had superior numbers, and appeared to have a size and strength advantage.

This is the great gift of any Budo/Martial practice. To be able see respond and neutralize any "attack" as soon as the predator makes their intentions known, without any escalation into conflict. I can't tell you how many times this gift has worked for me. It can be as simple as seeing an aggressive driver in your rear view mirror and letting them cut into the lane in front of you, or seeing the fear behind the anger in a man, connecting with him, and restoring harmony.

I can only hope that through your own practice you come to discover this gift for yourself. :)

William Hazen

bkedelen
03-23-2013, 11:20 AM
The term "predator mindset" was specifically selected to contraindicate a "prey mindset". I am guessing that the people who are taking a trip down pedantic lane have not actually read Rory Miller's texts.

Rob Watson
03-23-2013, 11:24 AM
For them it's not only about life and death...it's about their next meal. There is absolutely no nobility to it that I can see.

100% organic and natural. All perfectly normal and in total alignment with the will of the kami. Fully imbrued with nobility. I see it all around. Different strokes ...

hughrbeyer
03-23-2013, 11:39 AM
Me, I'm going for a "moose mindset". No one screws with a moose.

hughrbeyer
03-23-2013, 11:41 AM
The term "predator mindset" was specifically selected to contraindicate a "prey mindset". I am guessing that the people who are taking a trip down pedantic lane have not actually read Rory Miller's texts.

Yeah, it's a bit pedantic, but this kind of romanticization of animal behavior is just stupid. Like that guy who ran around talking about how gentle bears are until one tore his face off.

And it would be just as wrong to say that bear was vicious as to say it was gentle.

Keith Larman
03-23-2013, 12:21 PM
The term "predator mindset" was specifically selected to contraindicate a "prey mindset". I am guessing that the people who are taking a trip down pedantic lane have not actually read Rory Miller's texts.

Yeah, my take on it was that it was about not being reactive but going over to the other end of being proactive and assertive. Kind of like the Jigen Ryu guys training to start screaming at their opponent as they beat them to death with their swords. Train to take the initiative, take over, dominate, then get the hell out... I got what he meant but I do think the word predator carries too much baggage for the casual reader. Shrug. Decent book as I remember it.

Reminds me of things like sensen no sen, actually. Well, kinda, sorta...

bkedelen
03-23-2013, 12:38 PM
Reminds me of things like sensen no sen, actually. Well, kinda, sorta...

Knowing when you are going to sensen no sen, when you are going to sen no sen, and when you are going to go no sen seems like an important thing to discuss in this context.

Aikibu
03-23-2013, 12:42 PM
100% organic and natural. All perfectly normal and in total alignment with the will of the kami. Fully imbrued with nobility. I see it all around. Different strokes ...

I see...The will of the Kami must then also be aligned with Thugs, Rapists, and Brutal Dictators because you know...They just expressing Nature and the role we play in harmony with it as predators. ;)

William Hazen

Hint: The way O'Sensei and Shoji Nishio expressed their understanding of Kami was to give the world Aikido and I don't remember the "predator/prey" part of that paradigm except...Well you know...the fact we're supposed look at the world of conflict and resolution a bit differently? :)

mathewjgano
03-23-2013, 01:11 PM
Thought I pressed submit last night on this, but here it is now...FWIW...
The thread started with the question of predator mindset in Aikido.
It also spoke of it in terms of the need for self preservation and of turning the tables on an attacker, which I take to be the essence of irimi in Aikido. Demetrio replaced the term "aggressive" with "proactive," and assuming I understand the implication of this, I like that idea quite a bit as reflecting what I see as being essential to Aikido.
Also included was the idea of wanting to harm your attacker, which I read as having more than one possible meaning. I want never to hurt anyone, however, if I thought I had to break someone's arm in order to protect my kids, I would want to do so. I would also want to not do more than I absolutely had to in order to protect them. Having not read the book, I'm not sure exactly what Predatory Mindset denotes, but I'm hazarding a guess that it refers to the idea that some people will more or less freeze up (or otherwise become passive), while others will become assertive (by either fighting or "flighting").

Way back when humans were pretty dumb they were basically hunter gatherers. This predator mindset was the way of survival and as usual used for war too and taking lands etc.
I don't know about dumb. I'm inclined to think they're actually very much like people today, but with a different set of sensibilities. Regardless, just because they used this mindset as a matter of survival more often doesn't mean it's not applicable for the same reason today. Perhaps the lesser degree of exposure to the authentic need suggests greater consideration since "we" (generally speaking) have less opportunities to learn from those few experiences which do crop up from time to time.
The example given of

Aikibu
03-23-2013, 01:17 PM
The term "predator mindset" was specifically selected to contraindicate a "prey mindset". I am guessing that the people who are taking a trip down pedantic lane have not actually read Rory Miller's texts.

Well I have and I've given my opinion of it in my first post of this thread. So to bring it full circle No...This mindset does not belong in Aikido or any Martial Practice except perhaps as a way to understand a few simple concepts. Rory Miller was on the right track since before we are anything else... Western,Eastern, Liberal, Conservative, or otherwise we are biological beings and very much a part of nature.

Remember Predators are basically cowards looking for an opportunity. ;)

When confronted with violence I prefer the "Get between a Mamma Bear and Her Cubs" mindset or the "it ain't nothing but taking care of the guy next to you" mindset too.

You have to aim higher...It's not just about taking life if necessary...It's about protecting life at all costs. Even the life of the person you are in conflict with if possible. And this works on every level. For Example... Next Year will be the 100th Anniversary of the Christmas Truce of 1914.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce

As Dave Gross wrote in his book "On Combat" Human Beings have a natural aversion towards killing other Human Beings, However, they will fight to the death to protect the lives of others. Thus the revolution in the Military Training "Mindset" during the last century in conjunction with the technological revolution in Combat Arms.

Martial Awareness is a tool to help me express how I may best protect life..not just take it. Like I hinted at in my first post. If it was just about predator/prey Hell I'll just carry a gun and shoot the dudes who attack or threaten me. That some would have you believe is the proper expression of Kami.

Why waste my time with Martial Arts? Because in my heart I know there is something better.

William Hazen

Keith Larman
03-23-2013, 01:28 PM
Knowing when you are going to sensen no sen, when you are going to sen no sen, and when you are going to go no sen seems like an important thing to discuss in this context.

Well, I agree and I think that's probably the better discussion than some of the tangents this thread has taken. But on that note I need to go outside and enjoy some time in the sun. And to get some training time by myself.

jurasketu
03-23-2013, 01:46 PM
FWIW- Predators routinely fight and often kill other predators to acquire or defend territory/group or breeding status. In the "wild", humans have long done the same. This is especially true of the top predators (humans being a highly successful top predator). The harm comes when humans turn those instincts and skills to ill-purposes (no matter the underlying reasons - mental illness or just rotten character). In the human world, predatory behavior is not even always "physical" - just ask anyone who works in the corporate or legal world.

For me, being the hunter rather than the hunted means that you have seized the initiative. And often that is enough to literally keep the wolves at bay. Sheepdogs are aggressive towards wolves - not sheep.

Robin

Krystal Locke
03-23-2013, 02:13 PM
That's too easy. Those who hold the idea of it's all the same and their just interchangeable words and it's yet to be proved etc. don't want to know.

So it's no wonder to me that so many 'think' they can understand Ueshiba for example and yet still say the above.

Not just in Aikido but in life too, it's always a source of amusement to me. You got araes of life which are the domain of spirit or spiritual well being called Religion yet generally full of experts who don't even want to know the difference. You got areas to do with mind yet full of people and experts who can't even define one or have ever seen one. A crazy old world;)

Peace.G.

I think you are mistaking a metaphor for reality and looking to impose your values, nice as they are, on others.

I actually do want to know what spirit is. That's why I keep asking for concrete, useful, reliable, and dependable definitions of the term, here and elsewhere in my life. I am continually frustrated by the ubiquitous response. "You cant have evidence that it exists until you already believe it exists and act as if it exists, and already know in your heart (never in the actual thinking organ) that it is real and true and the only way, and you'll know all this without any evidence anyway, so just believe what I tell you because I have the answer and I dont need any evidence." I think that is bullshit.

Wanting to know something is the best way to fall into fantasy, self-delusion. At some point, the religious believer will make the claim that they know the mind of their god. At some point, the spiritual aikidoka will claim they know what O-sensei meant. And always in opposition to a reasonable request for useable definitions and evidence. And always with the tone of "I know something you dont know....."

At this point, the best I see is that "spirit" and "mind" are metaphors for emotion, personality, cognitive patterns. Epiphenomena of the body's functioning. Why make more of it than that?

So, let's say I stipulate to the existence of a "human spirit" for this thread. Why not recognize that it is also violent, fear-driven, domineering, awful, murderous, angry, sadistic, and even predatory? If we're discussing our spirit in order to improve or change our spirit, we'd do well to acknowledge the parts of it we think are ugly. So, I think, discussing the predatory spirit is exactly appropriate in the spirituality section.

I know I have all that "badness" in me. I know my "spirit" can be quite evil. I'm not going to get any "better" by not discussing it, or calling it a different name. Best, I think, to pull it out, lay it on the table, and say "Yup, there I am. What of it is good, what is useful, what needs to be changed to get what I want, and what is it that I really want?"

mathewjgano
03-23-2013, 02:59 PM
The example given of...

Oops...part got chopped. I was going to add that I liked the example earlier of two guys walking down the street with the "prey" maintaining his own assertive positioning. Again, I have little idea of what exactly the phrase Predator Mindset is supposed to denote, but I'm guessing it's the proactive approach to a situation-based need rather than a passive demeanor.

graham christian
03-23-2013, 05:52 PM
I think you are mistaking a metaphor for reality and looking to impose your values, nice as they are, on others.

I actually do want to know what spirit is. That's why I keep asking for concrete, useful, reliable, and dependable definitions of the term, here and elsewhere in my life. I am continually frustrated by the ubiquitous response. "You cant have evidence that it exists until you already believe it exists and act as if it exists, and already know in your heart (never in the actual thinking organ) that it is real and true and the only way, and you'll know all this without any evidence anyway, so just believe what I tell you because I have the answer and I dont need any evidence." I think that is bullshit.

Wanting to know something is the best way to fall into fantasy, self-delusion. At some point, the religious believer will make the claim that they know the mind of their god. At some point, the spiritual aikidoka will claim they know what O-sensei meant. And always in opposition to a reasonable request for useable definitions and evidence. And always with the tone of "I know something you dont know....."

At this point, the best I see is that "spirit" and "mind" are metaphors for emotion, personality, cognitive patterns. Epiphenomena of the body's functioning. Why make more of it than that?

So, let's say I stipulate to the existence of a "human spirit" for this thread. Why not recognize that it is also violent, fear-driven, domineering, awful, murderous, angry, sadistic, and even predatory? If we're discussing our spirit in order to improve or change our spirit, we'd do well to acknowledge the parts of it we think are ugly. So, I think, discussing the predatory spirit is exactly appropriate in the spirituality section.

I know I have all that "badness" in me. I know my "spirit" can be quite evil. I'm not going to get any "better" by not discussing it, or calling it a different name. Best, I think, to pull it out, lay it on the table, and say "Yup, there I am. What of it is good, what is useful, what needs to be changed to get what I want, and what is it that I really want?"

Don't know about metaphors but see how you view it by your explanation.

Yep, why not put it out there indeed and then question it as you do? It's all good.

But if people are going to really look at such things then I suggest they really look. So you can take that predatory 'spirit' or mindset that you put out on the table and really look at it and see what it's about.

Then you can ask yourself questions based on it's reality rather than 'reasonable' nonsense.

You would thus have to ask yourself if you like preying on others. If you like finding victims to con, to harm, to trick, to abuse? For only when you realize the insidiousness and stupidity of it would you finally let it go and have nothing to do with it.

So yes questioning such is useful and needed for self improvement. Just finding parts and seeing how I can use them for my advantage is not what I call self improvement and in the case of the predatory mindset would only lead to a more clever, sneaky coward.

My view, take it or leave it for I impose nothing.

Peace.G.

aiki-jujutsuka
03-23-2013, 06:11 PM
I think you are mistaking a metaphor for reality and looking to impose your values, nice as they are, on others.

I actually do want to know what spirit is. That's why I keep asking for concrete, useful, reliable, and dependable definitions of the term, here and elsewhere in my life. I am continually frustrated by the ubiquitous response. "You cant have evidence that it exists until you already believe it exists and act as if it exists, and already know in your heart (never in the actual thinking organ) that it is real and true and the only way, and you'll know all this without any evidence anyway, so just believe what I tell you because I have the answer and I dont need any evidence." I think that is bullshit.

Wanting to know something is the best way to fall into fantasy, self-delusion. At some point, the religious believer will make the claim that they know the mind of their god. At some point, the spiritual aikidoka will claim they know what O-sensei meant. And always in opposition to a reasonable request for useable definitions and evidence. And always with the tone of "I know something you dont know....."

At this point, the best I see is that "spirit" and "mind" are metaphors for emotion, personality, cognitive patterns. Epiphenomena of the body's functioning. Why make more of it than that?

So, let's say I stipulate to the existence of a "human spirit" for this thread. Why not recognize that it is also violent, fear-driven, domineering, awful, murderous, angry, sadistic, and even predatory? If we're discussing our spirit in order to improve or change our spirit, we'd do well to acknowledge the parts of it we think are ugly. So, I think, discussing the predatory spirit is exactly appropriate in the spirituality section.

I know I have all that "badness" in me. I know my "spirit" can be quite evil. I'm not going to get any "better" by not discussing it, or calling it a different name. Best, I think, to pull it out, lay it on the table, and say "Yup, there I am. What of it is good, what is useful, what needs to be changed to get what I want, and what is it that I really want?"

I know this was directed at Graham but as you sound genuinely open to the discussion please permit me to jump in on this. My beliefs are different from those of Graham but I too believe the human spirit to be real and not just a product of epiphenomenon. I believe in a Judeo-Christian worldview. Fascinatingly, Judaism holds to a wholistic view of human nature, rather than the dualistic view of body and soul found in the Hellenistic world. Body, soul, spirit, heart, mind are all a part of human nature. The word for spirit in ancient Hebrew is "ruach" and comes from the root word for "breath". We cannot live without breathing and once we cease breathing we die. Thus spirit is intricately connected with body. Jesus is said in the Gospels to have "breathed" the Holy Spirit onto His disciples after His resurrection.

But while the Hebrew word to express spirit is rooted in a concrete form (breathing) that does not mean it is merely a metaphor. God is said to be Spirit but it does not mean God is breath because that implies the function of breathing using organs and orifices (not to mention that God would be corpereal in that His essence would be made up of atoms, which is self refuting). God is said to have spoken light into the darkness but God does not have a mouth. So as God is Spirit then spirit is a part of God's essence. As God has revealed Himself through the beauty and complexity of His creation, through the Holy Bible (that has been proven to be historically and prophetically reliable) and through the person, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, spirit must also therefore be real. The Holy Spirit is the third member of the trinity and as God is triune (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) He is therefore relational. Our ability to relate to God - the very fact that we are conscious, self aware beings, the reality of objective moral values, religious experience, expressions of worship, prayer etc. - proves that our spirit is that part of human nature that separates us from other sentient life forms such as animals. Interestingly the Hebrew word for soul "nephesh" is used for both animals and humans in the Bible but spirit is used only of humans and God.

:)

graham christian
03-23-2013, 06:15 PM
Thought I pressed submit last night on this, but here it is now...FWIW...

It also spoke of it in terms of the need for self preservation and of turning the tables on an attacker, which I take to be the essence of irimi in Aikido. Demetrio replaced the term "aggressive" with "proactive," and assuming I understand the implication of this, I like that idea quite a bit as reflecting what I see as being essential to Aikido.
Also included was the idea of wanting to harm your attacker, which I read as having more than one possible meaning. I want never to hurt anyone, however, if I thought I had to break someone's arm in order to protect my kids, I would want to do so. I would also want to not do more than I absolutely had to in order to protect them. Having not read the book, I'm not sure exactly what Predatory Mindset denotes, but I'm hazarding a guess that it refers to the idea that some people will more or less freeze up (or otherwise become passive), while others will become assertive (by either fighting or "flighting").

I don't know about dumb. I'm inclined to think they're actually very much like people today, but with a different set of sensibilities. Regardless, just because they used this mindset as a matter of survival more often doesn't mean it's not applicable for the same reason today. Perhaps the lesser degree of exposure to the authentic need suggests greater consideration since "we" (generally speaking) have less opportunities to learn from those few experiences which do crop up from time to time.
The example given of

I think you're confusing things Matthew. You don't need predator mindset to turn tables on attacker or do tenkan or irimi. All the 'proactive' things you mention are nothing to do with predator mindset. In fact they are how to handle those with one so quite the reverse.

The 'dumb' of the past is about the use of such mindset which was considered normal. atahus cannibals, vikings, coquerers etc. Still today there are modern empire builders who through fear and greed feel they have to conquer other lands. Still in the corporate world it's all set up for aggressive takeovers like big monsters gobbling up victims and becoming conglomerates. Same ol same ol ignorance. I suppose it only becomes real to most when they become the prey, when they get conned or worse. Dumb and dumber I would say for those who justify it scream when they become the prey.

Time to find better ways I would say.

Peace.G.

mathewjgano
03-23-2013, 11:03 PM
I think you're confusing things Matthew. You don't need predator mindset to turn tables on attacker or do tenkan or irimi. All the 'proactive' things you mention are nothing to do with predator mindset. In fact they are how to handle those with one so quite the reverse.
Certainly wouldn't be the first nor the last time I'll've (yes that's a double contraction:D ) been confused, but I'm applying a pretty narrow definition to the phrase, "Predator Mindset." I'm not associating it with the mentality that seeks to take away from others, but rather which asserts itself as being a non-target or which otherwise acts assertively to preserve itself. I might as well use "Non-Prey Mindset," like that of, say, a moose (although moose do have their natural enemies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry1d11lQ8UY)) defending itself, either by use of its natural weapons or by running.

The 'dumb' of the past is about the use of such mindset which was considered normal. atahus cannibals, vikings, coquerers etc. Still today there are modern empire builders who through fear and greed feel they have to conquer other lands. Still in the corporate world it's all set up for aggressive takeovers like big monsters gobbling up victims and becoming conglomerates. Same ol same ol ignorance. I suppose it only becomes real to most when they become the prey, when they get conned or worse. Dumb and dumber I would say for those who justify it scream when they become the prey.

Exactly my point, the behaviors of then and now are really not that far off from each other...and let's not forget that history is often written by the "winners," leaving those who were prey to their aggression with less of a voice in the history books. My only point here was that people then, as now, were enlightened and petty and everything in between. I'd like to see us as relatively enlightened by comparison, but I'm not convinced. Once again it seems individuals vary and yet very much remain the same...or something like that...
Take care!
Matt

Kevin Leavitt
03-24-2013, 01:47 AM
Humans are intelligent. Humans can think. Humans if they take the time can learn to do many great things. We are capable of making choices. Choices based on intelligent and a very deep level if we choose to garner knowledge and wisdom.

If you look at it that way, then it isn't so much about instinct, being a predator, hunter, sheep or lamb etc....those allegories have been transcended by man in many ways. In fact, these days I am beginning to believe that these allegories become excuses to absolve us of appropriate behavior or responses to a given situation.

Sure at a base level, we may be hunters, sheep gatherers. However, I would hope that as budoka that we understand that our practice is geared to understand ourselves at a deeper level and to transcend our base desires and emotions.

I think it is important to know your "redlines". Which ones you are wiling to cross. Know your "triggers" what things/conditions that will cause you to react/proact or whatever to take some sort of action.

Mert Gambito
03-24-2013, 12:20 PM
as an aiki-jujutsu practitioner I just wanted to add my two pennies worth. Modern Aiki-jujutsu (such as Hakko Ryu & Dentokan) has a humanitarian goal akin to that of Aikido in its philosophy on violence and self-protection. Though atemi is emphasised more, atemi is always employed more as a distraction, such as a mitsubushi rather than as a knock out blow. The Jujutsu technique is paramount, to incapacitate your attacker through immediate pain compliance rather than cause permanent injury. Hakko Ryu's philosophy is no challenge, no resistance, no injury. The art is designed to equip practitioners with the skillset to defend themselves safely and maintain control of their emotions.
Ewen, et al;

Hakkoryu could be considered largely "martial shiatsu", so the atemi is not only always present in each technique, it is a primary component of each technique. For example, there are multiple atemi in Hakko Dori (the first technique in shodan-ge), though they are not strikes in the conventional sense. In fact, the emphasis on atemi, e.g. attacking tsubo, in Hakko Dori -- with Hakko Dori serving as an analogue to Aiki Age (Daito-ryu) and the initiation of Kokyu Dosa (aikido) -- exemplifies what differentiates Hakkoryu from its predecessor and cousin art. Shiatsu can immobilize a person and/or put them to sleep. Knowledge from shiatsu delivered via a strike such as a metsubushi can do the same in jujutsu (i.e. can result in a knock-out).

The founder of Hakkoryu, Ryuho Okuyama, was clear in his writings, e.g.: "[C]almly face imminent peril and move on without hesitation to capture and punish assailants reasonably". "In Hakkoryu, there is indeed no technical skill without a spiritual determination to carry on without hesitation to life or death." So, under certain circumstances, killing could be considered the reasonable response in a given situation of imminent peril. In fact, the shodan-level waza include atemi, that if delivered with full power, would likely cause severe permanent injury or death. However, note how these atemi are presented and continue to evolve as you move up the waza board. Nidan-ge, for example, heavily emphasizes ending threats with the killing blow at the ready but held in reserve.

What Okuyama is saying is to develop self-defense responses to the point they are instinctive -- both in execution and in finding the appropriate level along the use-of-force continuum. Non-human predators kill based on instinct and the need to survive, both to eat and to not have themselves or their offspring be killed by something trying to turn them into a victim/meal. So, malice, the want to hurt or kill when it isn't needed for self-preservation, may not be part of the equation in Hakkoryu, but the need to hurt or kill is reasonable and acceptable -- and so it is in common sense and under the law in most modern jurisdictions. As a government-employed correctional officer, Rory Miller's approach to violent encounters must take these things into consideration: it's not just wanton violence as a response to the same.

Regarding aikido, I can't think of a technique off hand that is designed to kill upon contact (though many of the kansetsu- and nage-waza, for example, can readily break parts of the body). That said, I can see how an adept aikidoka could do significant damage with Irimi Nage, for example, as a technique or as the general framework for some other instinctive response to a dangerous attack. The technique/response itself may not involve a strike or a lock designed to inflict damage or death, but the uke could certainly end up quite damaged or dead upon impact with the ground. If the alternative is the aikidoka's own death or incapacitation, would such a scenario be anathema to what aikido's about?

aiki-jujutsuka
03-24-2013, 02:22 PM
Mert,

Thank you for expanding on some of the principles of Hakko Ryu in its relation to shiatsu. I wasn't trying to claim that Hakko Ryu does not or cannot use atemi to deliver lethal force. I was trying to emphasise that Aiki-Jujutsu has a humanitarian framework or philosophical/spiritual structure to its curriculum as does Aikido. Because Aikido is a "do" not a "jutsu" the difference is often exaggerated imo. Here is a quote from the official Hakko Ryu website:

Throughout Hakkoryu, the idea of abandoning force is emphasized. In the study of “Inyodo” (the way of yin and yang) one comes to see that an excess of either is detrimental. In Hakkoryu Jujutsu we say, “Sakarawazu” or “no resistance” in order to teach mental and physical relaxation/settling and to not fight against Kake’s force. Avoid where Kake is strong. Focus where Kake is weak.

As described in the History section of this website, Hakkoryu combines traditional medical thinking with arts of self-preservation. This is best exemplified when feeling the Atemi (strikes to the body) and Osae (arresting) techniques of Hakkoryu. Many of these are directed at Tsubo (special points) located along Keiraku (meridians) of the body. They can cause very sharp and distracting pain without necessarily injuring Kake. In Hakkoryu we say, “Kizu Tsukezu” or “no injury” to emphasize our hope that injury to Kake can be avoided. Only when it is unavoidable does Hakkoryu direct its Atemi to Kyusho (vital points).

http://hakkoryu.com/hakkoryu-jujutsu/techniques/

Mert Gambito
03-25-2013, 11:02 AM
Thanks Ewen.

I don't think we can say that "aiki-jujutsu" as a whole is humanitarian in nature. There does not appear to be an express humanitarian goal in any of the recognized Daito-ryu lineages, for example.

But I agree that Hakkoryu is humanitarian in nature relative to what preceded it. In fact, the system's goal is for practitioners to develop a unified body of understanding and skills that allow them to harm as well as heal people: by learning shiatsu, one learns how to apply atemi in a manner that minimizes the need for unnecessary force and damage when doing jujutsu.

bkedelen
03-25-2013, 11:59 AM
There does not appear to be an express humanitarian goal in any of the recognized Daito-ryu lineages, for example.

What could be more humanitarian than the image of Sokaku Takeda responding to some hard words by massacring construction workers?

aiki-jujutsuka
03-25-2013, 01:40 PM
Thanks Ewen.

I don't think we can say that "aiki-jujutsu" as a whole is humanitarian in nature. There does not appear to be an express humanitarian goal in any of the recognized Daito-ryu lineages, for example.



which is why I said "modern" aiki-jujutsu to make that distinction. Sorry if it wasn't clear enough though. :)

Mert Gambito
03-26-2013, 12:07 PM
which is why I said "modern" aiki-jujutsu to make that distinction. Sorry if it wasn't clear enough though. :)The thing is, based on historical evidence, Daito-ryu, Hakkoryu and aikido are all gendai budo.

OK, back to the topic of the OP.

Miller states in Meditations on Violence that self-defense is the focus of his book -- not self-defense as a secondary or even less significant emphasis in one's martial training. He states about the "predator" mindset: "This mindset, in my experience, horrifies the people seeking spiritual growth."

Miller does not advocate trying to cultivate a predator mindset as the primary approach to martial arts / self-defense training. Rather, he advocates developing the ability to switch on a predator mindset during a violent encounter in progress to survive the encounter. And, in the process of training to do so, change one's natural reaction from freezing in the wake of an overwhelming assault by a predator to being proactive.

Morihei Ueshiba expressly advocated against harming and killing one's opponent/attacker. "To injure an opponent is to injure yourself. To control aggression without inflicting injury is the Art of Peace. . . . [W]e try to completely avoid killing, even the most evil person." So . . .

I guess I'm asking "if I WANT to hurt the attacker and not protect them with a throw" is that considered aikido? I know I have a universal right to protect myself, but should there be a desire to punish someone for attacking me?

. . . is apparently not what aikido is all about.

The predator mindset Miller describes -- which as a tool of criminals, a professional combatant defending his/her homeland, someone exerting self-defense, etc. may be directed toward what society sees as unlawful as well as just purposes depending on the situation and the role of the predator -- for practical purposes often ends in harm to or death of the person(s) on the receiving end. However, I took away from reading the book the notion that cultivating the predator mindset is primarily about preparing one's self to be capable of executing as many options as possible, based on one's training, to address violence when it is upon you. Those options certainly can include the ability to be in enough control of the situation as to not cause harm.

bkedelen
03-26-2013, 05:08 PM
For those who doubt the efficacy of using aggression and violence to in a self defence scenario, take note of Albert DeSalvo, the Boston Strangler.

After he was captured it was revealed that he had attacked many more women than his 13 known victims. Multiple women came forward with similar reports that when they responded loudly and violently to his initial actions, he would immediately flee. It is generally considered that his known victims were those targets who either did not know or were not in a position to make noise and fight back.

This information is used in rape prevention and education courses all over the world.

In the acute moment of being attacked, you may need to damage someone's joints, groin, or face in order to survive. If you wish to avoid the unpleasantness of this extremity, leverage your common sense and Aikido training to avoid being in this situation in the first place. Asking martial arts training to save you from having to harm your partner in this extreme environment is like being angry that your license plates have expired. The time for actions you could have taken to ensure everyone's welfare has passed you by some time ago.