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Michael Varin
03-15-2013, 01:57 PM
I often find it interesting to compare the nomenclature of different styles.

I come from an Iwama base, so that tends to be the names that I defer to.

In Iwama we refer to a handful of techniques as kokyu nage. These techniques often have individual names in other styles.

I'd like to know what names people out there use for the following technique:

Uke grabs or pushes with both hands to nage's shoulders/upper chest. Nage steps in or steps back, cutting one arm down at the elbow while pressing the other elbow up, a la ikkyo.

Sorry no pictures or video right now, but if one becomes necessary I'll link one later.

Michael Hackett
03-15-2013, 03:27 PM
That describes what we call ryokatadori ikkyo, stepping in would be the omote version and stepping back would include a tenkan and would be called the ura version.

Michael Varin
03-15-2013, 03:47 PM
Michael,

Interesting.

So you use contact with both of uke's elbows to effect the throw and still call it ikkyo?

Cliff Judge
03-15-2013, 03:56 PM
I often find it interesting to compare the nomenclature of different styles.

I come from an Iwama base, so that tends to be the names that I defer to.

In Iwama we refer to a handful of techniques as kokyu nage. These techniques often have individual names in other styles.

I'd like to know what names people out there use for the following technique:

Uke grabs or pushes with both hands to nage's shoulders/upper chest. Nage steps in or steps back, cutting one arm down at the elbow while pressing the other elbow up, a la ikkyo.

Sorry no pictures or video right now, but if one becomes necessary I'll link one later.

Interesting. That is not too common at my dojo, I think if it were named we'd consider it a tenshi nage. Possibly ryokata tenshi nage.

But it really sounds quite a lot like the first half of Koshi Garuma from mainline Daito ryu.

chillzATL
03-15-2013, 04:20 PM
for us that sounds like ryokatatori kokyunage. We do this same exercise often as ryokatatori randori.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjY7wPXtE1U

This guy basically does what I think we're talking about around teh :20 mark.

Michael Varin
03-15-2013, 04:48 PM
for us that sounds like ryokatatori kokyunage. We do this same exercise often as ryokatatori randori.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjY7wPXtE1U

This guy basically does what I think we're talking about around teh :20 mark.

Yeah.

That's pretty much the technique I was describing, albeit with a somewhat loose execution.

Michael Hackett
03-15-2013, 07:13 PM
Michael, I misunderstood your description. In the AAA that would be referred to ryokatatori kokyunage, pivot throw variation (we count five pivot throws from that attack). The earlier ikkyo variation I mentioned would have Nage reaching across one arm with a little weight while grasping Uke's other wrist and lifting on that arm's elbow into ikkyo. My error.

Cliff Judge
03-15-2013, 09:50 PM
Yeah I didn't visualize this technique from your description either. Ryotedori kokynage. What a very interesting initial thought I had there.

Michael Varin
03-15-2013, 11:48 PM
Written descriptions are a funny thing... To me it was clear!

OK. We have four votes for kokyu nage, including my own.

Does anyone else have an alternate name for this technique?

Malicat
03-16-2013, 12:21 AM
Written descriptions are a funny thing... To me it was clear!

OK. We have four votes for kokyu nage, including my own.

Does anyone else have an alternate name for this technique?

Funny enough, from your description, I was envisioning a tenshi nage, but if we are indeed going with the video, I defer to Jason with the ryo kata tori kokyu nage. Although, according to my understanding of kokyu nage, any throw that can not end in a pin, ie the uke is thrown away from the nage instead of kept close, is a kokyu nage. We do several 'named' techniques that are still kokyu nages, but have their own specific names, like tenshi nage and ago tsuki age.

Michael Hackett
03-16-2013, 12:39 PM
Ummmm, alternative name? Ralph? Seriously, there is, or should be, a wheel-like aspect to this throw, so maybe a kaitenage? In our test requirements, the technique is listed as "pivot throw variations required" under the heading of ryokatatori kokyunage, so that's what I am most comfortable with. A test candidate is expected to demonstrate all five pivot throw variations and then a variety of more classic kokyunage.

graham christian
03-16-2013, 12:48 PM
I would call it a tenchinage variation. Rather than looking at technique but rather from motion for me it is therefor heaven and earth motion no matter what added name given to it due to it's variation.

Basically answered by this question....what is the motion of tenchinage? It is leading up and down at the same time, some call it leading mind in two directions (heaven and earth) and some call it opening the person up. Either way it's leading up and down at the same time and stepping through.

That's how I describe it.

Peace.G.

chillzATL
03-16-2013, 08:06 PM
Yeah.

That's pretty much the technique I was describing, albeit with a somewhat loose execution.

Yah I wasn't looking for quality, just an example of what I thought you were describing. FWIW I don't recall ever practicing this technique as a technique apart from the randori exercise. Why that is, I can't exactly say, though my thoughts are that it's a matter of practicality or maybe the very specific attack requirements to be practical. With that said, this is one of the two techniques I've done on someone in a real situation and it was quite effective. Though maybe that says the technique as part of the exercise is more important than the technique alone. Worth noodling on I suppose.

mathewjgano
03-16-2013, 10:03 PM
I would have called this ryokatadori tenchi nage (like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8Y51_a-lY4)?), but I've seen other waza that I thought would be called by a diffferent name. What would be the difference between this and the other example, apart from the high fall style of ukemi and the katate dori?

Janet Rosen
03-16-2013, 11:09 PM
for us that sounds like ryokatatori kokyunage. We do this same exercise often as ryokatatori randori.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjY7wPXtE1U

This guy basically does what I think we're talking about around teh :20 mark.

Yep, I also know it as basic randori technique, not otherwise named.

philipsmith
03-18-2013, 04:42 PM
If memory serves techniques didn't have standard names until some point in the late 60's.
My late father had a first edition of Nidai Doshus book "Aikido".

Nikkyo was described as kote-mawashi ikkyo as ude-osae along with some other differences to modern nomenclature.

When I next visit my mother (where the book still resides) I'll look it up; but I believe the standardisation of technique names within the Aikikai was one of the many innovations introduced by nidai doshu.

Michael Vlug
03-19-2013, 07:05 AM
If memory serves techniques didn't have standard names until some point in the late 60's.
My late father had a first edition of Nidai Doshus book "Aikido".

Nikkyo was described as kote-mawashi ikkyo as ude-osae along with some other differences to modern nomenclature.

When I next visit my mother (where the book still resides) I'll look it up; but I believe the standardisation of technique names within the Aikikai was one of the many innovations introduced by nidai doshu.

Ikkyo - Ude Osae
Nikkyo - Kote Mawashi
Sankyo - Kote Hineri
Yonkyo - Tekubi Osae
Gokyyo - Ude Nobashi

I'm not sure about the spelling, though...