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AikiWeb System
07-24-2002, 03:16 PM
Discuss the article, "The Development of Ki" by Patrick Augé here.

Article URL: http://www.aikiweb.com/training/auge1.html

kironin
07-25-2002, 02:01 AM
Discuss the article, "The Development of Ki" by Patrick Augé here.

Article URL: http://www.aikiweb.com/training/auge1.html
"...the more stupid we become."

I think I just became more stupid by spending my time reading this article.

Craig

PeterR
07-25-2002, 04:08 AM
"...the more stupid we become."

I think I just became more stupid by spending my time reading this article.
Shame on you Craig - what exactly in the article do you not like and why.

If the use of the word stupid is what disturbs you let's look at it in context.

According to Mochizuki Sensei, the more we rely on intellectualization to learn, the more stupid we become. That is why he has been discouraging his students from learning with books and tapes. It's only through experience that we can internalize knowledge. After that, it's all right to use books and other media.

Within the Aikido context I agree completely with the statement. It is very easy to overintellectualize what we do to the point where it becomes extremely difficult to internalize what is essentially a physical condition.

Elsewhere in the article he talks about the use of some of the Ki exercises of Tohei and the fact that all major schools have exercises which could be recognized by you (ie. Tohei derived) as being Ki exercises. The fact that Yoseikan, Shodokan, Yoshinkan don't spend a lot of time verbalizing the concept reflects a belief that understanding come through doing.

Chuck Clark
07-25-2002, 11:17 AM
Peter quoted:

"According to Mochizuki Sensei, the more we rely on intellectualization to learn, the more stupid we become. That is why he has been discouraging his students from learning with books and tapes. It's only through experience that we can internalize knowledge. After that, it's all right to use books and other media."

Mochizuki-sensei used the word "stupid" and I'm sure he was trying to express something that was perfectly clear in his mind. It may not agree with what we think of when we hear that word.

I certainly agree that often when we fill ourselves with intellecualizations we become very "busy" and make decisions based on those concepts that may take us further away from the real essence of the training experience.

When we have reached a certain level of experience and our mind/body system has become closer to that real essence then we can experiment with ideas from books, etc.

Most students feel awkward at certain levels of experience in the training. Some try to "solve" this by looking for solutions in their mind rather than just keeping at the training and having faith in the system, their teacher, and themselves.

Give up trying figure things out without enough real experience. Be patient. When the time is right, everything becomes clear.

And as one of my teachers was fond of saying, "Don't worry, nuthin's gonna be alright!"

Regards,

IrimiTom
07-25-2002, 01:55 PM
Thirty years ago, shortly after my arrival in Japan and settling at the dojo, I found a book in English on Ki in daily life. The book gave many interesting explanations and practical exercises to develop Ki. My teacher saw me reading the book and laughed: "Very strong man!" he said of the author, exposing his own biceps, "but strange here!" he added poking a finger at his head. It took some time before I learned through the Japanese Budo network that the author of the book did not live according to his teaching, in spite of his great technical skill.

I'm getting the idea that Mr. Augé is referring here to Koichi Tohei. I read his book called Ki in daily life and I remember the part about tasting food before adding salt, silence, etc. If Mr. Augé is indeed referring to Tohei Sensei, I'd be really interested in an explanation (from anyone) of why he or anyone else thinks he did not live according to his teachings. I have also never heard him qualified as "strong", in fact, he was quite weak as a young man.

I do not like it when people are criticized without their names actually being used but with just about enough information about them mentioned so that if confronted, the criticisms can be directed to someone else.

kironin
07-25-2002, 03:50 PM
I do not like it when people are criticized without their names actually being used but with just about enough information about them mentioned so that if confronted, the criticisms can be directed to someone else.
Thanks, IrimiTom.

That was what my flippant remark was really in response to.

I wonder why it was necessary for a 7th dan to repeat old negative gossip about another senior teacher in a different style that he heard when he was a beginner. This would have been around 1972. It's weird that he found the book useful after dissing the author secondhand. It's also strange that the book he refers too was published in 1966 as "Aikido in Daily Life" and was only published in 1977 or later as "Ki in Daily Life" with a great deal of the same material but also some changes. Either his memory is fuzzy or chose to use a later title that would clearly identify the anonymous crazy teacher who doesn't live by what he writes.

I'll edit the essay to more concise form. :)



"Books and tapes are only valid training tools for those who have already spent a great deal of time on the mat except when they offer exercises. Cultivating Ki can keep you from getting wacked with a bokken but not tell you who is at the train station unless you are superhuman. Actually I wrote this whole article but I really don't have an answer on how to develop Ki other than to live a simple life and train hard. But there was this book by a crazy teacher that turned out to be kinda of useful anyway."

Craig

kironin
07-25-2002, 04:06 PM
Elsewhere in the article he talks about the use of some of the Ki exercises of Tohei and the fact that all major schools have exercises which could be recognized by you (ie. Tohei derived) as being Ki exercises. The fact that Yoseikan, Shodokan, Yoshinkan don't spend a lot of time verbalizing the concept reflects a belief that understanding come through doing.
The fact the Ki exercises exist in Ki Society also reflects a belief that "understanding comes from doing". Willingness to verbalize the concept in class or write about the concept in a book doesn't negate that, it just shows a willingness to use all modes of learning.

Craig

Bruce Baker
09-01-2002, 02:54 PM
Everytime I get someone who bash's Ki or Chi, or even Qi, it becomes time to teach the iron arm, extension, and even the old ... "How fast can you run while I wack you with this stick" routine.

You want physical proof, well then we learn the extremely hard way of the disbeliever.

Not everyone has the ability to gain this second sense, or gather the semi impossible forces of the universe over the physical evidence that comes before their eyes or is admittedly a personal experience.

So you reach down and use your anger to strengthen you, anger is a form of Ki, but not as efficient as other forms.

Some people sit on the porch, relax, have a cool drink, and suddenly things you were too busy to see, observe, or pay attention to come to light ... that is a form or Ki training.

You have a project due at work, and only a few days to finish it. You buckle down, reach inside of yourself, and put out an effort like you never have before ... that is a form of Ki.

You are playing a game of basketball, and the pushing and shoving gets a little rough and ready, so you pick up the pace and give as good as you get, that is a form of KI.

You are late to get some where, so you plot the most efficient route to drive, drive as fast as you can , within safe limits, and work your way through a crowd of people walking in slow motion, impeeding your every step ... yep, another form of Ki.

See ... you have been using it in many moments of your life, although not always as effiencently as you could if you paid attention, trained a little more, and increased your waking mind to pick up what your subconcious mind is telling you.

Or maybe, you should stop using anger to create strength, increase your minds ability to think, and open your ability to be aware of your surroundings instead of shutting them out.

I don't think that we all should get crazy and go to Tibet to learn about meditation and Ki, but becoming more attuned to your environment, how you overcome obsticles and problems, or just plain rise to higher expectations with mind and body, these things are the learning tools of cultivating Ki/Chi/Qi.

Take the one thing that you are best at, define how and why you are the best at it, then probagate how you could teach someone to be better at it than you ever could. You will see that not only does it matter to have physical training, but the mental conditioning is just as important.

If that doesn't stir up some thoughts on using Ki, I don't know what will.