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Michael Varin
02-20-2013, 12:37 AM
In another thread,

It's how they use that tendon strength.

There may be some traces of IS in ancient wrestling when Hercules lifts his opponent off the ground, breaking his ground connection, at which time the opponent lost all his strength.

However, in IS, the tendon and sinew are seen as part of a whole complex web unlike I've ever heard it described in athletics.

Further, in IS, this entire "connective tissue" system is the medium of "ki" in the body. Ki flows through the fascia/connective tissue. This also explains why some acupuncture points are on nerve points but others are not. The western approach is that these must be imaginary points and that only the nerves have any capacity to conduct energy, and that can only be electrical energy. But ki is in the whole connective tissue complex all the time. Traditional approaches moved and balanced the body in specific ways to shift the efforts from muscle to the connective tissue via ki movement.

That's a big difference in usage and the quality of the results can't be attained by Western sports and athletic methods. Otherwise, judo would have improved remarkably after its inclusion in the Olympics. Instead it became more like wrestling and less like an Asian fighting art, this according to Minoru Mochizuki.

So the use of the connective tissue in IS is completely different from Western sport and athletics.

David
What is ki?

Does it only exist within the fascia? How do we know?

How does it flow?

How is ki related to "IP/IT/IS"?

What is its function?

sakumeikan
02-20-2013, 01:52 AM
In another thread,

What is ki?

Does it only exist within the fascia? How do we know?

How does it flow?

How is ki related to "IP/IT/IS"?

What is its function?

Dear Michael,
You might as well ask yourself the question 'Who /Where /Is there a God?'Ki is a very complex issue.My view is you either subscribe to the concept or you do not.Its a sort of a Belief system.
Perhaps Ki exists everywhere, sustaining the Life force of everything,from rocks,
trees, rivers, human beings , animals and the very air we breathe?Cheers, Joe.

graham christian
02-20-2013, 01:52 PM
Rather than asking "what is Ki?" as just saying so leads to nothing most can relate to in practice I would say it's better to give something that someone could at least relate to and then through practicing that be able to feel and understand Ki better and especially feel and understand what it isn't.

You cannot physically create Ki, you cannot mentally create Ki, it is spiritual. It takes spiritual perception to recognize it.

As it is something you can perceive a good place to start is 'the energy of goodness'.

In use it actually relates more to kindness.

It can flow through the whole body so relating it only to certain 'connective' parts is a limited view.

What is God? Just add another 'o'.

What principle is vital to the practicing of it? Non-resistance.

My simplicity.

Peace.G.

Budd
02-20-2013, 03:36 PM
"Connective tissue" in the sense of ki tends to refer in the micro sense to the skin, the tendons, the ligaments, the muscles, including in the macro sense also the bones as they all work together in a connected body to assist in managing the balance forces of ground/gravity and any other forces brought to bear. This kind of ki can be conditioned in terms of thickness and elasticity to better convey receiving and issuance of force even as skill is built to more ably generate and receive power. To maximize this connected type of movement the body tends to primarily open or close as a single unit. There's more (how the forces are explicitly managed/generated, how sophisticated and articulated the middle is engaged as the controller, etc.) but that's a starting point.

graham christian
02-20-2013, 05:03 PM
"Connective tissue" in the sense of ki tends to refer in the micro sense to the skin, the tendons, the ligaments, the muscles, including in the macro sense also the bones as they all work together in a connected body to assist in managing the balance forces of ground/gravity and any other forces brought to bear. This kind of ki can be conditioned in terms of thickness and elasticity to better convey receiving and issuance of force even as skill is built to more ably generate and receive power. To maximize this connected type of movement the body tends to primarily open or close as a single unit. There's more (how the forces are explicitly managed/generated, how sophisticated and articulated the middle is engaged as the controller, etc.) but that's a starting point.

So Ki in this sense is physical? It can be conditioned in terms of thickness etc? Just asking.

Peace.G.

bkedelen
02-20-2013, 08:31 PM
So Ki in this sense is physical?

I am unaware of anything that actually exists which is not ultimately physical.

Ki, in the several generations of discussion that have previously occurred here, was offered by the more or less community verified "subject matter experts" as more of a Dumbo's Feather than a measurable phenomenon. This is made particularly obvious as one encounters more and more factually irreconcilable explanations of human anatomy and the tortured use of physics and engineering terminology in even the best formulated verbal and written explanations.

Before the latest iteration of the discussion, however, I could never have imagined the depth to which some people are willing to investigate just how Dumbo's Feather physically enables flight.

sakumeikan
02-21-2013, 03:46 AM
I am unaware of anything that actually exists which is not ultimately physical.

Ki, in the several generations of discussion that have previously occurred here, was offered by the more or less community verified "subject matter experts" as more of a Dumbo's Feather than a measurable phenomenon. This is made particularly obvious as one encounters more and more factually irreconcilable explanations of human anatomy and the tortured use of physics and engineering terminology in even the best formulated verbal and written explanations.

Before the latest iteration of the discussion, however, I could never have imagined the depth to which some people are willing to investigate just how Dumbo's Feather physically enables flight.

Dear Benjamin,
Dumbos Feathers aiding flight?I always thought that Dumbo's ears were the primary things that enabled Dumbo to fly ?Must check my old copy of the Walt Disney classic. Joe.

Walter Martindale
02-21-2013, 06:53 AM
Dumbo, according to wikipedia, carried 'what he thinks of as a magic feather' but the oversized ears were what he used to fly in the animated feature.

"Dumbo's Feather" - magical belief?

Walter Martindale
02-21-2013, 08:08 AM
(just a clarification - I checked wikipedia to confirm my shaky memory that dumbo carried a feather because he believed it made him fly) Do some of us believe "ki" makes us fly when truly it's training, meticulous attention to our movement and our interaction with our partners, and hard work?

bkedelen
02-21-2013, 11:06 AM
A Dumbo's Feather is symbolic of an entry point, in the form of a deliberate falsehood, which (due to its very strangeness) provides access into a skillset which would be otherwise inaccessible. Those who have studied Buddhism will recognize this type of instruction as a form of upaya: skillful or expedient means.

Budd
02-21-2013, 11:42 AM
So Ki in this sense is physical? It can be conditioned in terms of thickness etc? Just asking.

Peace.G.

In the sense that ki is related to connective tissue in the body, yes, while from a martial perspective it's a physical manifestation of intention coupled with physical action. It can be conditioned over time and skill can be built in better coordinating it's use for beneficial effects and application. From a body cultivation perspective it's an exercise in conditioning and coordination purity with some skill-building towards optimal use being by products of the transformative effect.

Basically, there's strength (alone from an IS perspective), there's strength + skill (alone from an IS perspective), there's strength + skill + coordination (alone from an IS perspective), then there's strength + skill + coordination + application from a martial arts perspective --> the latter being where your IS practice is embedded into how you've trained to express your practice of a martial system (that may also have sport or sparring or matches of some kind with varying degrees of competition to measure different aspects of your training).

That's at least how I understand it from a "classical" view spanning Chinese and Japanese martial system perspectives. Different practices and methods of cultivation may have aspects of the full complement of internal strength skills (my baseline is as defined in 6-harmony neijia arts such as Chen taijiquan) as probably best defscribed at MikeSigman.blogspot.com

Even today, some of the discussions and efforts at investing more recognized internal methods back into aikido (I know, I know, some say it was never gone, I appreciate the perspective even if I don't agree) are often talking about partial implementations, so to speak - where "ki" may be used to describe only the intention-force-management piece. Or the aiki taiso may be re-looked at for "ki building" as in how they work to better manage balance and build internal connection.

When people are having discussions about "ki" in aikido - I tend to look at it from the perspective of whether it's being measured against the "classical" view (as a set of strength, skill and body movement principles) or if it's more a philosophy or belief system. Understanding that even in the classical view, that a philosophy and belief system were eventually also layered on top (which I think is why the waters get muddied between mechanics and philosophy), I'm more interested in the concrete body mechanics around their expression. So even new methods of describing things, to me, should at least adhere or relate to some of the older methods at the very basic principles - even if the scientific understanding of what's going on may have become more advanced or sophisticated with more recent revelations of biology, chemistry, physics, etc.

FWIW

graham christian
02-21-2013, 05:44 PM
Thanks Budd. That's answered my question. Thanks for your perspective on the matter too.

Peace.G.

graham christian
02-21-2013, 06:02 PM
I was confused by the terminology re: dumbo's feathers and even after the explanation don't get it. So there you are. I mean, I've seen a dragon fly, I've seen a horse fly, but I think I will have seen everything when I see an elephant fly...boop be doo....

Peace.G.

sakumeikan
02-21-2013, 06:46 PM
I was confused by the terminology re: dumbo's feathers and even after the explanation don't get it. So there you are. I mean, I've seen a dragon fly, I've seen a horse fly, but I think I will have seen everything when I see an elephant fly...boop be doo....

Peace.G.

Graham,
Do elephants wear trousers?Do they zip up the fly?Same with Dumbos Feathers, is Dumbo a Burlesque Queen a la Dita Von Teese?I saw the Marx Brothers in Horse Feathers, Cannot recall Dumbo having feathers.Cheers, Joe

graham christian
02-22-2013, 04:39 AM
I was just told you can't actually see his feathers cos he packed them away in his trunk.

David Orange
02-22-2013, 10:31 PM
What is ki?

Does it only exist within the fascia? How do we know?

How does it flow?

How is ki related to "IP/IT/IS"?

What is its function?

A lot of what you see in the movies as "hard training," such as holding the horse stance, etc., is involved with stressing the muscles until you learn to rely on the fascia. And the reason they do that is so that you will be very aware of that level (though they may not tell you what you're supposed to become aware of). But a good teacher can lead you through that to experience the fascia in a direct way. And after a certain amount of that, you might start feeling the ki.

For me, that was some of what the Aunkai exercises did. But in my case, I was aware and thinking about the fascia for a while before I did a lot of those exercises. So I think a lot of the old traditional stuff was about making you feel it by giving you something you couldn't avoid feeling.

As for what is ki....from my perspective, I think it's pretty well covered in the "Ki Eureka" thread, but here's some more. Does it only exist in the fascia? Well...yes and no.

I think this is a pretty clear summary of traditional cosmology on that: first is non-existence. We are not. The door from non-existence to existence is "kokoro," or heart (or mind).

What comes through the "portal" of kokoro into "existence" is ki.

Kin cannot come into this world without form, so it emerges from kokoro as a body and this body forms a mind.

The mind is made out of the same stuff the body is, a coalescence of worldly material around this original formless ki. The body is made of ki and then the mind emerges as a part of the ki/body complex.

So do we say it only exists in the fascia? Well, it permeates the whole body...and so does fascia. The fascia connects and unifies all parts of the body, but the ki connects the mind to the body in a way that nerves cannot. I think ki provides a medium by which the whole body knows anything that touches the ki in any place: the touch is instantly known throughout the entire ki. So the whole body knows as soon as any part of the ki knows. And that's a different kind of "unifying the body."

I think the main use of the ki is to provide awareness throughout the whole body at once, making the body light and easy to coordinate, also easy to switch to heavy and hard for others to move.

My endeavors in IP/IS lead me to think that continual reduction of muscular effort allows ki to flow more easily and freely (and thus with more power). Reduction of muscular effort draws everything more and more back to the center. I say this because I have found myself consciously changing my impulses from sending effort and preparation into my arms to leaving the arms completely relaxed and free of effort. I think more of using the main body to achieve my intention than of using the arms. So my mind/nerve power/ki don't rush into my arms anymore but stay in my center.

I hope this ads some useful perspective.

David

David Orange
02-23-2013, 12:26 PM
In another thread,

What is ki?

Does it only exist within the fascia? How do we know?

How does it flow?

How is ki related to "IP/IT/IS"?

What is its function?

Now I'm going to look back to the very roots of my aikido experience, to a document we called "Bearden's Manual." This was written by Capt. Thomas E. Bearded, US Army, stationed at Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, Alabama, where he also trained with Capt. Sadayuki Demizu, Japanese Air Self Defense Force, aikido sandan, and son-in-law of Minoru Mochizuki.

When some officers at Redstone learned of Demizu's aikido knowledge, they encouraged him to teach and he taught for some time at a rec center on base. Glenn Pack, a graduate student at the University of Alabama, was a teenaged student in Demizu's class, allowed access because his father worked on the base. Pack distributed Bearden's manual to the early generations of yoseikan aikido students at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa

Thomas Bearden was US Army Captain, experienced in judo, I believe, and he was a nuclear engineer. Pack and I explored writing a comprehensive book about yoseikan aikido to be largely based on Bearden's manual and we went to visit him to discuss this and aikido history. It was like meeting Robert Heinlein. He spoke at length about free energy concepts and UFOs. Though retired already as Lt.Col. at that time, he still had an office at Redstone. He is apparently today a highly regarded figure among those involved in free energy, Tesla concepts and UFOs. Look him up on Wikipedia. His manual on aikido reveals nothing like that. It is written as the main document for the military officers who would be training with Demizu and it was undoubtedly filed with the Army for various uses. It's organized I, II, III, a., b., c., 1., 2., 3. for 32 pages, translating Demizu's knowledge of aikido (from training with Minoru Mochiuzki and Kyoichi Murai). It was probably written about 1966. I first encountered it in 1975. Col. Bearden gave me his permission to distribute the whole manual as I wished and to incorporate it in any book I wanted to write as long as I credited him where due. It's actually standard for literary work, but this was an unpublished manual.

So how did a military officer teach other military officers aikido? The manual begins by defining both aikido and ki:

II. GENERAL

a. AI-KI-DO : Three Japanese words which mean "the high moral Way of union of Ki."

1. AI - the union of two ki's meeting; entering into and deflecting the opponent's Ki.

2. KI - spiritual energy; body energy flow, controlled by the quiet mind.

3. DO - The Way, or high moral road of seeking enlightenment and self-mastery

This was how it was defined for the US Army by a Captain in the Japanese military studying rocket and missile technology.

The aikido he taught was much more mainstream in appearance than the yoseikan budo that supplanted it when Patrick Ague was sent at Thomas Bearden's request to Mochizuki. Demizu's aikido pretty well matched all the other aikido you could see. The pace may have been tougher with multiple military captains with black belts going full tilt...

David

David Orange
02-23-2013, 12:30 PM
My endeavors in IP/IS lead me to think that continual reduction of muscular effort allows ki to flow more easily and freely (and thus with more power). Reduction of muscular effort draws everything more and more back to the center. I say this because I have found myself consciously changing my impulses from sending effort and preparation into my arms to leaving the arms completely relaxed and free of effort. I think more of using the main body to achieve my intention than of using the arms. So my mind/nerve power/ki don't rush into my arms anymore but stay in my center.

Not to say that there's no extension of the ki into the arms and legs, but it goes there in a different way, now, more like an observer than a commander--not to put my arms on hyper-alert but to make them receptive to very subtle efforts and contacts.

FWIW

David

David Orange
02-23-2013, 03:05 PM
In another thread,

What is ki?

Does it only exist within the fascia? How do we know?

How does it flow?

How is ki related to "IP/IT/IS"?

What is its function?

How does it flow? That's an interesting question. It leads to another: "Why do we even think that it does flow?"

The answer, of course is that, "Well...everyone says it flows."

And who said that first?

It must have been the taoists and creators of traditional Chinese medicine.

Acupuncture and shiatsu are both based on the theory that qi (ki) flows through the body in regular cycles along well established pathways with "points" at which the flow may be sped up, slowed down or stopped. This has been shown to ease inflammation, invigorate weak organs or eliminate pain for dental or surgical application. So I am impressed that their theory has substance.

My understanding of this is that, since ki is life energy itself, it has to be in the whole body all the time or the part where it was not would die, which is an irreversible process. So life has to be in the whole body all at once. But it also moves through the body and an expert Chinese doctor can tell exactly where it is in the body at any moment. If this seems strange, then explain the question of locating a "nuclear particle" at any particular instant. The nuclear "particle" has been explained as actually being a spherical "shell" of energy that "condenses" at a given location on the sphere to appear as a "particle" but it is really more like a wave in a body of water, a movement within a substance which appears fleetingly at one place, then another. So I see ki as being both everywhere in the body at once, all the time, but also being somehow concentrated at a point that move in a regular cycle through the various meridians of the body.

On the other hand, for IP/IT/IS, we can use the mind to direct the ki to any part of the body instantly. And that directing is an expression of intent. But while ki is never released from the body, intent can extend to infinity, which can have a great effect on someone has no strong ability to focus his intent.

As for actual physical delivery of power, I don't think there's really a difference in what reaches the attacker, only the purity of it. And that means purity of force.

Rob John addresses this in his thread on "Weight Transfer." The question is how to get "all" of your intended effort to the target without losing a lot through disorganization.

Supposedly, Ark tells people their nervous systems are like dial-up internet connections while he is using fiber optics. It's not that his nervous system is really different but IP/IS work is really largely about "connecting the dots" so that both information and power flow within the body without confusion or blockage. Here an analogy to water might be better than electricity. While your electrical connections can be good or bad, there's either current going or not. If we consider water, imagine that your main line puts water into a sump type of place where the open ends of the pipes to the rest of the house have open ends. When you turn on the water, the main line starts filling the sump until it gets high enough flow into the other pipes of the house. You can imagine that when you turn on your shower, the water flow will be pretty poor. The problem is that while the water can get from the main to the shower line, it's not properly connected. You won't get out what you expect at the end and you'll lose water in the process.

The body/mind organization of most people is a lot like that. A push from the foot loses effectiveness in the foot first, then the ankle, up the leg, in the lower back, etc., etc., losing a little more at each point so that it's quite weak at the end. IP/IT is concerned, among other things, with getting all the connections "tightened up." Actually, I think the usual term is "take the slack out" because being "tight" is not what we want. But we want a firm connection and maybe a little stretched but not strained.

This process can be undertaken entirely by "the mind" but its nature does not allow it to reach directly into the body. If the mind attempts to understand the body, it has to work within its own rules. It does some things and doesn't do others. For one thing, the mind does not "feel." This is an important place where we can clearly distinguish mind and ki. The ki, in IP/IS, is used to "feel" within the body without having to have some nerve impulse. The mind can detect both nerve impulse and the "feelings" of ki. Usually, people believe that it is the mind that is feeling, but it is not. The nerves feel and the ki feels, but the mind can only receive the impressions from those feelings and it organizes that information and takes action on it.

So we use the ki to let the mind in on the deeper secrets of the body and in that way, through serious effort, the mind "becomes one" with the body because it can enter any place in the body through the ki.

When the mind and the ki work together, the mind can penetrate the entire body and can recognize where connections are too slack.

Going beyond just this basic outline sketch, you need a real teacher to show you directly what's what but I think this is a good entre for putting these concepts into perspective and place.

David

David Orange
02-23-2013, 04:31 PM
So we use the ki to let the mind in on the deeper secrets of the body and in that way, through serious effort, the mind "becomes one" with the body because it can enter any place in the body through the ki.

When the mind and the ki work together, the mind can penetrate the entire body and can recognize where connections are too slack.


To finish the whole thought, when the mind becomes that wise to the body and ki, it is fit to direct them and not before. We can do many things in the name of harmonizing and directing ki and the body, but most of them are fanciful because the mind really floats along in confusion about what ki even is and what its flow is like. The only way to know is to apply the mind to observation of the ki for a while. Sometimes this is stimulated by stressful exercises and the softest can be the most painful for the mind--pain being not the actual feeling but a kind of friction set up by the mind trying to escape from the serious focus.

When the mind fully penetrates the body and ki and is in constant harmony with them, we can seek to understand six harmonies and other things related to dantien, etc. But finally, we get to the old saying that the mind leads the ki and the ki leads the body.

Mike Sigman added something to that a while back that I think I understand now. Mind leads ki and ki leads body are only two harmonies. Aren't there supposed to be three? The first is a division of mind into heart (kokoro) and what we think of as mind. That second type of mind is purely calculational and intellectual. But the real essence of life and self comes from kokoro, which is the heart, the origin of all our feelings and desires and impulses. Most of us wage a lifelong war between mind and heart (heart or head). Some fall to one side and, with no restraint on their kokoro and its impulses, become horrible criminals. Some with no restraint on their kokoro become saints, geniuses...insane. So it is vital that the rational mind have final sway over the wild and powerful heart, to tame it like a lion domesticating itself. Most lions now are in protected preserves for fear of their life, anyway. The result of a kokoro tamed by the rational mind is "I" in Japanese and "Yi" in Chinese. Taming one's own heart can allow one at least to walk at one's own discretion among men and not be injured nor accused. Maybe. Deep and subtle attention to ki and its movement as the source of physical action is a deep expression of this congruency of self, the mind and emotions, the mind and the spirit, the spirit and the body. One becomes truly "one" instead of a conglomeration of mysterious and maybe dubious parts.

David

David Orange
02-24-2013, 10:30 AM
When the mind fully penetrates the body and ki and is in constant harmony with them, we can seek to understand six harmonies and other things related to dantien, etc. But finally, we get to the old saying that the mind leads the ki and the ki leads the body.

Anyway, after all is said and done, right or wrong, I have to go back to the words of Richard Kim, menkyo kaiden in daito ryu from Yoshida Kotaro. Paraphrased, Kim said something like, "It all comes down to the moment when you give your opponent your best shot and it either ends the fight or it doesn't phase him."

The whole purpose of budo is to ensure that the person of "do" remains safe and secure and that the irrational attacker is locked down immobile to be dealt with by proper authority. Well, or dead, if there is no other way. Mochizuki Sensei stressed that we must do no more harm than necessary to stop the attack. But the truth is, we have to stop an attack. Our metric of success is first: no injury to us or to the ones we defend. Second: as little injury as possible to the attacker. It is very good to think of having no enemy, but pathetic to have to maintain that delusion after the attacker kills your loved one. This is not to focus on killing but to make absolutely clear the continuum. Carpenters and masons use "level" as their prime reference for everything in the world. It exists on a continuum from "level" (exactly horizontal to gravity) to "plumb" (exactly vertical in gravity). Foundations must be level and walls must be plumb, but there are uses for every degree of variation between level and plumb. inclines for walking, "fall" for site drainage, pitch for roof angle. We cannot know only "level" to measure the world. We must understand and be able to work with the proper techniques for every angle and purpose.

So in budo, we work on a continuum from perfect universal peace and passive, relaxed stillness to decisive end of violence through physical and personal response. Because we are first decent people whose kokoro responds to love and generosity with love and gratitude and we love our families and peaceful times; and second, rational people who act for reasonable purposes, we always want peace. But we must understand that we are on that continuum. When one's own dignity and freedom or that of one's loved ones, or the innocent stranger are too severely impinged, it is unnatural simply to allow it. That is why laws arose, but budo arose from lack of law as individuals formed the Japanese society and created sumo, jujutsu and kenjutsu for actual fighting (bujutsu). Budo evolved out of bujutsu as a way for strong fighters to become moral leaders of strong fighters. These were the deepest and most spiritual of the fighters--not intellectuals with weak bodies, but hardened fighters who saw the need for a moral path in human life. Just as "level" is useless without "plumb," though, they knew that "peace" is useless without justice. You can live in "peace" under a terrible ruler, but it's not really peace. The entire environment must be somewhat subdued for real peace even to be possible. One can attain deep peace even in bad times, but it remains incomplete when the environment is at war.

Obviously, one can't go out and subdue the entire environment, though it makes for good (or at least sometimes funny) cinema. Or, anyway, one can't subdue the entire environment by force or violence. I think the best way is to remain strong, aware and friendly to everyone in my neighborhood. However, strange things happen in neighborhoods, often with people passing through. When such people (or even our neighbors) get an idea to push someone around, we have to be peacemakers. Mochizuki Sensei had a commendation from the Prime Minister of Japan for negotiating with the students occupying Tokyo University in the 1960s. And that's not code for "beating the stew out of the students." He talked with them. He used to tell me how he protected cities from Communist attacks in Mongolia during the war by helping the rural people outside the cities. This is how budo works.

But: when the rubber meets the road (as Kim might have said), it all comes down to that moment when the bully attacks you and you give him your best shot. Who will be left standing?

If you like to use the term "budo," you need to know this means training in such a way as to assure that your best shot will put the attacker down (even if that means just holding him in sankyo). You don't do more than necessary to stop him, but whatever you do must work. Those are the level and plumb of budo.

From there, budo becomes not only a collection of techniques that we "learn" by repeating them in dance fashion, but a vast ocean of technique and method, from aikido, judo, karate, jujutsu, boxing, wrestling, fencing, savage, xing yi, tai chi, bagua, shoaling and dirty criminal street tactics. Everything from horizontal to vertical and back, both above and below the earth.

And the last point is that IP/IS is a deep place in budo training where we learn to get closer and closer to delivering 100% of your effort to the place we intend it to apply.

When we say we direct our ki to our hand, we're thinking of making the hand light to move but heavy to hit. We don't put the ki into the hand so we can hit the attacker with our ki, but to activate not only the hand but the whole bodypath from grounded foot to the hand. Then when the hand hits the attacker (or we apply sankyo), we have the effect Shioda called shuuchu ryoku or "concentrated power." And I never saw anyone of any size fail to go down if Shioda hit them. Indeed, I don't think anyone ever saw Shioda really "hit" anyone except maybe a few times he mentions in his autobiography.

Anyway, hitting, throwing, holding are all the same in aikido, as much as that can be forgotten.

But the purpose of all the IP/IS/IT, as I understand it, is to be able to use the intrinsic qualities of the upright body to deliver maximum possible power with absolute minimal exertion.

Letting the muscles ease into tanren strength and letting the ki lead the body are ways to make the whole body congruent and martially effective. The mental/ki efforts are demanding but they are probably the essence of the deepest meditation. Peace without strength is irresponsible and is not budo.

Finally, IP/IS was not part of the techniques of aikido as I learned them but I felt its subtle presence in the aikido, judo and karate at the yoseikan. I, unfortunately, mistook that for conventional western athletic strength and I tried to achieve it by harder and harder muscular training (trying to use no strength in my aikido technique, however). If I had only know then...

David Orange
02-24-2013, 10:38 AM
When the mind fully penetrates the body and ki and is in constant harmony with them, we can seek to understand six harmonies and other things related to dantien, etc. But finally, we get to the old saying that the mind leads the ki and the ki leads the body.

Anyway, after all is said and done, right or wrong, I have to go back to the words of Richard Kim, menkyo kaiden in daito ryu from Yoshida Kotaro. Paraphrased, Kim said something like, "It all comes down to the moment when you give your opponent your best shot and it either ends the fight or it doesn't phase him."

The whole purpose of budo is to ensure that the person of "do" remains safe and secure and that the irrational attacker is locked down immobile to be dealt with by proper authority. Well, or dead, if there is no other way. Mochizuki Sensei stressed that we must do no more harm than necessary to stop the attack. But the truth is, we have to stop an attack. Our metric of success is first: no injury to us or to the ones we defend. Second: as little injury as possible to the attacker. It is very good to think of having no enemy, but pathetic to have to maintain that delusion after the attacker kills your loved one. This is not to focus on killing but to make absolutely clear the continuum. Carpenters and masons use "level" as their prime reference for everything in the world. It exists on a continuum from "level" (exactly horizontal to gravity) to "plumb" (exactly vertical in gravity). Foundations must be level and walls must be plumb, but there are uses for every degree of variation between level and plumb. inclines for walking, "fall" for site drainage, pitch for roof angle. We cannot know only "level" to measure the world. We must understand and be able to work with the proper techniques for every angle and purpose.

So in budo, we work on a continuum from perfect universal peace and passive, relaxed stillness to decisive end of violence through physical and personal response. Because we are first decent people whose kokoro responds to love and generosity with love and gratitude and we love our families and peaceful times; and second, rational people who act for reasonable purposes, we always want peace. But we must understand that we are on that continuum. When one's own dignity and freedom or that of one's loved ones, or the innocent stranger are too severely impinged, it is unnatural simply to allow it. That is why laws arose, but budo arose from lack of law as individuals formed the Japanese society and created sumo, jujutsu and kenjutsu for actual fighting (bujutsu). Budo evolved out of bujutsu as a way for strong fighters to become moral leaders of strong fighters. These were the deepest and most spiritual of the fighters--not intellectuals with weak bodies, but hardened fighters who saw the need for a moral path in human life. Just as "level" is useless without "plumb," though, they knew that "peace" is useless without justice. You can live in "peace" under a terrible ruler, but it's not really peace. The entire environment must be somewhat subdued for real peace even to be possible. One can attain deep peace even in bad times, but it remains incomplete when the environment is at war.

Obviously, one can't go out and subdue the entire environment, though it makes for good (or at least sometimes funny) cinema. Or, anyway, one can't subdue the entire environment by force or violence. I think the best way is to remain strong, aware and friendly to everyone in my neighborhood. However, strange things happen in neighborhoods, often with people passing through. When such people (or even our neighbors) get an idea to push someone around, we have to be peacemakers. Mochizuki Sensei had a commendation from the Prime Minister of Japan for negotiating with the students occupying Tokyo University in the 1960s. And that's not code for "beating the stew out of the students." He talked with them. He used to tell me how he protected cities from Communist attacks in Mongolia during the war by helping the rural people outside the cities. This is how budo works.

But: when the rubber meets the road (as Kim might have said), it all comes down to that moment when the bully attacks you and you give him your best shot. Who will be left standing?

If you like to use the term "budo," you need to know this means training in such a way as to assure that your best shot will put the attacker down (even if that means just holding him in sankyo). You don't do more than necessary to stop him, but whatever you do must work. Those are the level and plumb of budo.

From there, budo becomes not only a collection of techniques that we "learn" by repeating them in dance fashion, but a vast ocean of technique and method, from aikido, judo, karate, jujutsu, boxing, wrestling, fencing, savage, xing yi, tai chi, bagua, shoaling and dirty criminal street tactics. Everything from horizontal to vertical and back, both above and below the earth.

And the last point is that IP/IS is a deep place in budo training where we learn to get closer and closer to delivering 100% of your effort to the place we intend it to apply.

When we say we direct our ki to our hand, we're thinking of making the hand light to move but heavy to hit. We don't put the ki into the hand so we can hit the attacker with our ki, but to activate not only the hand but the whole bodypath from grounded foot to the hand. Then when the hand hits the attacker (or we apply sankyo), we have the effect Shioda called shuuchu ryoku or "concentrated power." And I never saw anyone of any size fail to go down if Shioda hit them. Indeed, I don't think anyone ever saw Shioda really "hit" anyone except maybe a few times he mentions in his autobiography.

Anyway, hitting, throwing, holding are all the same in aikido, as much as that can be forgotten.

But the purpose of all the IP/IS/IT, as I understand it, is to be able to use the intrinsic qualities of the upright body to deliver maximum possible power with absolute minimal exertion.

Letting the muscles ease into tanren strength and letting the ki lead the body are ways to make the whole body congruent and martially effective. The mental/ki efforts are demanding but they are probably the essence of the deepest meditation. Peace without strength is irresponsible and is not budo.

Finally, IP/IS was not part of the techniques of aikido as I learned them but I felt its subtle presence in the aikido, judo and karate at the yoseikan. I, unfortunately, mistook that for conventional western athletic strength and I tried to achieve it by harder and harder muscular training (trying to use no strength in my aikido technique, however). If I had only know then...

oisin bourke
02-24-2013, 01:57 PM
This process can be undertaken entirely by "the mind" but its nature does not allow it to reach directly into the body. If the mind attempts to understand the body, it has to work within its own rules. It does some things and doesn't do others. For one thing, the mind does not "feel." This is an important place where we can clearly distinguish mind and ki. The ki, in IP/IS, is used to "feel" within the body without having to have some nerve impulse. The mind can detect both nerve impulse and the "feelings" of ki. Usually, people believe that it is the mind that is feeling, but it is not. The nerves feel and the ki feels, but the mind can only receive the impressions from those feelings and it organizes that information and takes action on it.

So we use the ki to let the mind in on the deeper secrets of the body and in that way, through serious effort, the mind "becomes one" with the body because it can enter any place in the body through the ki.

When the mind and the ki work together, the mind can penetrate the entire body and can recognize where connections are too slack.

Going beyond just this basic outline sketch, you need a real teacher to show you directly what's what but I think this is a good entre for putting these concepts into perspective and place.

David

That's the clearest, most succint description I've read. I've mentioned before, but you should really read Tatsuo Kimura's book on aiki. What he writes is uncannily similar (albeit much more vague).

David Orange
02-24-2013, 02:24 PM
That's the clearest, most succint description I've read. I've mentioned before, but you should really read Tatsuo Kimura's book on aiki. What he writes is uncannily similar (albeit much more vague).

If I had any ability at this, I could tell you whether what I said is true...

But thanks.

David

Carl Thompson
02-24-2013, 03:29 PM
Thank you David


Mike Sigman added something to that a while back that I think I understand now. Mind leads ki and ki leads body are only two harmonies. Aren't there supposed to be three?

Would you relate this to rei-ryoku-tai?

Carl

David Orange
02-24-2013, 07:37 PM
Would you relate this to rei-ryoku-tai?

I don't think so. I'm not really familiar with the term. Is it Omotokyo? Many Japanese concepts sound similar to the Chinese concepts, but, they don't always go to the depth of detail the Chinese do. For instance, unification of mind and body or harmonization of mind and body. The most I ever got out of this in Japanese terms was to try to coordinate my mind and body to produce good tai sabaki and timing of movement.

What I've been getting into with the IP concepts is that my mind has really integrated with my body--not in the outer form of movement, but in being able to move within my body by "riding" the ki to become intimately aware of the inner assembly of my body.

Thanks.

David

oisin bourke
02-25-2013, 07:01 AM
What I've been getting into with the IP concepts is that my mind has really integrated with my body--not in the outer form of movement, but in being able to move within my body by "riding" the ki to become intimately aware of the inner assembly of my body.



Someone with whom I practised in Japan always talked about developing the ability "to see" inside oneself. He emphasised that he didn't mean the regular mode of seeing : 見る, rather 視る (I think)

Interestingly,Chris Li translated an interview withTamura Nobuyoshi in which he also talked about "looking inside oneself" while practising chi kung/kiko.

FWIW

Carl Thompson
02-25-2013, 08:07 AM
I don't think so. I'm not really familiar with the term. Is it Omotokyo?

Yes. Rei (spirit), ryoku (power), tai (body). In kotodama terms, rei can be read as CHI, while tai is KARAda or the KARA-tama. Put together they make chi-kara (power).

Cady Goldfield
02-25-2013, 09:37 AM
David Orange wrote:
Mike Sigman added something to that a while back that I think I understand now. Mind leads ki and ki leads body are only two harmonies. Aren't there supposed to be three?

The Chinese motto is Yi-Chi-Li. Mind (intent) leads Energy which leads/creates Power and its external expression by the body. In other words, mental intent is the driver that sparks the manipulation of opposing forces to create the energy that is converted to the power that drives waza.

graham christian
02-25-2013, 06:25 PM
From Davids description sound like Ki leads mind then.

Peace.G.

David Orange
02-26-2013, 12:09 AM
From Davids description sound like Ki leads mind then.


Not at all, Graham.

Normally, there would be no division and the mind and ki would work together well enough for most people to live an ordinary life.

But modern society puts all the emphasis on the mind (calculation and intellect) over both body and "emotions" (all the ki functions of feeling and movement that aren't directly useful for business calculation).

When the mind is so completely alienated from the very ki of which it is made, then it's necessary for the mind perhaps not to be led by the ki, but to follow the ki like a horse tamer. If you read "The Man Who Listens to Horses," it's sort of like that. You only get to understand horses by hanging with them and paying very close attention to them over a long period. To get to know your ki, your mind has to get to know it. That means not making it do what you want it to do, but finding out what it is, what it's about and what it wants to do, as well as how it does that. And after you know it so well, you can befriend it (since it is actually yourself) and if you have enough mental development, you can begin to lead it.

How can you lead something you really don't understand at all?

But here is an important point. After following the ki around and hanging out with it and watching its tricks, one may or not recognize that ki comes from kokoro. Then there is the question of how much influence the rational mind should have over the natural heart. As a literary artist, this has been a question I've worked on for forty years and it has filtered through my approach to martial arts as well. Who is to rule the heart? Whose business it is?

Well, here we find another continuum and the poles are "Pure Heart" and "Defeat the Self."

The danger of the "pure heart" side is disintegration into passions or frivolity. The danger of the "Defeat the Self" side is that you will defeat yourself.

Both ways are bad for the ki and for the whole life.

The "pure heart" way, without rational strength may indeed end up led by ki, attributing everything to ki and eschewing technique.

The "defeat the self" type tends to put everything on technique and uses adherence to technique as a "spiritual" practice to take up for the lack of a spirit.

The answer is, indeed, for the rational mind to understand kokoro and direct it from passion or frivolity to a middle way, not to the other extreme of "defeat the self," but to the middle place called "amenominakanushi," or "the boss." This is the place of "winning the self," not defeating self.

Here the kokoro is "tamed" by the rational mind, like a lion domesticating itself, so that the ki issuing from kokoro is strong and smooth. And the mind that conditions the ki so is then fit to direct that ki to wherever.

And of course, this cannot be done entirely in the mind and ki. It has to been actively done in the body, so the body is in pretty good condition and is able to respond to (and bear) the leading of the ki, as directed by the balanced mind.

So, no, it isn't that the mind follows the ki. It only follows the ki long enough to know it completely. After that, it directs and trains the ki.

Hope that makes it clearer.

David

David Orange
02-26-2013, 01:12 AM
David Orange wrote:
Mike Sigman added something to that a while back that I think I understand now. Mind leads ki and ki leads body are only two harmonies. Aren't there supposed to be three?

The Chinese motto is Yi-Chi-Li. Mind (intent) leads Energy which leads/creates Power and its external expression by the body. In other words, mental intent is the driver that sparks the manipulation of opposing forces to create the energy that is converted to the power that drives waza.

I hope it didn't sound like I was trying to quote Mike or explain what he thinks. I was trying to frame some of what I was thinking relative "something" he said somewhere (and I have no idea where to look for the quote).

Mochizuki Sensei specified that ki itself has both yin and yang and that aiki to can be either yin or yang. In either case, I think it would still be a combination of yin and yang.

Please comment more on this.

Thanks.

David

Hareksu
02-26-2013, 06:14 AM
David Orange wrote:
Mike Sigman added something to that a while back that I think I understand now. Mind leads ki and ki leads body are only two harmonies. Aren't there supposed to be three?

The Chinese motto is Yi-Chi-Li. Mind (intent) leads Energy which leads/creates Power and its external expression by the body. In other words, mental intent is the driver that sparks the manipulation of opposing forces to create the energy that is converted to the power that drives waza.

Weeeelll, not really. The Chinese three internal harmonies are xin - yi, yi - qi and qi - li. Xin being the heart, whatever that may mean.

Cady Goldfield
02-26-2013, 08:44 AM
Weeeelll, not really. The Chinese three internal harmonies are xin - yi, yi - qi and qi - li. Xin being the heart, whatever that may mean.

Alex, it depends on how you want to look at it.. The "pure" interpretation of the Three Internal Harmonies includes Xin in tandem with Yi, sort of a "conjoined twin" representing one of the Three Harmonies. There is slight difference between Xin (heart) and Yi (mind). Xin is the desire -- you have to have the desire to do something in order to take action to do it. It is not in itself an active condition, but it leads to one: Yi. Yi ("mind") is the intent, sparked by Xin. Yi is the active state that is the actual spark of physical initiation.

We can split hairs with terms, but in actual practice Yi-Chi-Li is the practical "short list" of the three internal harmonies, and we accept the conjoined presence of Xin with Yi.

David Orange
02-26-2013, 09:26 AM
Alex, it depends on how you want to look at it.. The "pure" interpretation of the Three Internal Harmonies includes Xin in tandem with Yi, sort of a "conjoined twin" representing one of the Three Harmonies. There is slight difference between Xin (heart) and Yi (mind). Xin is the desire -- you have to have the desire to do something in order to take action to do it. It is not in itself an active condition, but it leads to one: Yi. Yi ("mind") is the intent, sparked by Xin. Yi is the active state that is the actual spark of physical initiation.

We can split hairs with terms, but in actual practice Yi-Chi-Li is the practical "short list" of the three internal harmonies, and we accept the conjoined presence of Xin with Yi.

That's how I had come to understand it.

Thanks.

David

Cady Goldfield
02-26-2013, 09:28 AM
I hope it didn't sound like I was trying to quote Mike or explain what he thinks. I was trying to frame some of what I was thinking relative "something" he said somewhere (and I have no idea where to look for the quote).

Mochizuki Sensei specified that ki itself has both yin and yang and that aiki to can be either yin or yang. In either case, I think it would still be a combination of yin and yang.

Please comment more on this.

Thanks.

David

Hi David,
I can only offer my own understanding, from my own practice. In and Yo (Yin and Yang) are qualities or states, not energy (Ki, Chi) itself. You know that In and Yo are complementary opposites that cannot exist without each other; they are always present in some form of balance. They can be maintained in a steady state, or they can fluxuate with the conditions, but where it comes to manipulating energy in the human body, there is no "all In" or "all Yo." There is either a neutral state of equal expression, or the expression of more of one quality, to some degree, than of the other.

So, the aiki we are creating can express more of the qualities of one than of the other. That would be my interpretation of "In/Yin aiki" and "Yo/Yang aiki. Thus,""In Aiki" would be aiki that has more of the "In" qualities -- aiki that draws and sucks in, and "Yo Aiki" would be aiki that projects and expands out. The corresponding parts of the body and processes that manipulate ki/chi/energy this way would also be those associated with "In" and "Yo" and used in the same balance as the aiki they produce and express.

phitruong
02-26-2013, 11:22 AM
Thus,""In Aiki" would be aiki that has more of the "In" qualities -- aiki that draws and sucks in,.

i thought most aikido are the kind that draws and sucks. :)

*sorry, couldn't help meself*

graham christian
02-26-2013, 12:23 PM
Not at all, Graham.

Normally, there would be no division and the mind and ki would work together well enough for most people to live an ordinary life.

But modern society puts all the emphasis on the mind (calculation and intellect) over both body and "emotions" (all the ki functions of feeling and movement that aren't directly useful for business calculation).

When the mind is so completely alienated from the very ki of which it is made, then it's necessary for the mind perhaps not to be led by the ki, but to follow the ki like a horse tamer. If you read "The Man Who Listens to Horses," it's sort of like that. You only get to understand horses by hanging with them and paying very close attention to them over a long period. To get to know your ki, your mind has to get to know it. That means not making it do what you want it to do, but finding out what it is, what it's about and what it wants to do, as well as how it does that. And after you know it so well, you can befriend it (since it is actually yourself) and if you have enough mental development, you can begin to lead it.

How can you lead something you really don't understand at all?

But here is an important point. After following the ki around and hanging out with it and watching its tricks, one may or not recognize that ki comes from kokoro. Then there is the question of how much influence the rational mind should have over the natural heart. As a literary artist, this has been a question I've worked on for forty years and it has filtered through my approach to martial arts as well. Who is to rule the heart? Whose business it is?

Well, here we find another continuum and the poles are "Pure Heart" and "Defeat the Self."

The danger of the "pure heart" side is disintegration into passions or frivolity. The danger of the "Defeat the Self" side is that you will defeat yourself.

Both ways are bad for the ki and for the whole life.

The "pure heart" way, without rational strength may indeed end up led by ki, attributing everything to ki and eschewing technique.

The "defeat the self" type tends to put everything on technique and uses adherence to technique as a "spiritual" practice to take up for the lack of a spirit.

The answer is, indeed, for the rational mind to understand kokoro and direct it from passion or frivolity to a middle way, not to the other extreme of "defeat the self," but to the middle place called "amenominakanushi," or "the boss." This is the place of "winning the self," not defeating self.

Here the kokoro is "tamed" by the rational mind, like a lion domesticating itself, so that the ki issuing from kokoro is strong and smooth. And the mind that conditions the ki so is then fit to direct that ki to wherever.

And of course, this cannot be done entirely in the mind and ki. It has to been actively done in the body, so the body is in pretty good condition and is able to respond to (and bear) the leading of the ki, as directed by the balanced mind.

So, no, it isn't that the mind follows the ki. It only follows the ki long enough to know it completely. After that, it directs and trains the ki.

Hope that makes it clearer.

David

My statement was based on what you said about Ki 'feeling' and then the mind can only receive that feeling and organize accordingly. Thus Ki first. Then as you say mind being manifested or made from Ki equals once again Ki first.

I'm quite happy reading your explanations as it shows me also your progress and note how your reality of Ki is improving. I notice you are using the term 'feeling' too which not too long ago only a few of us on here used. All good.

Of particular interest also was your view on the two poles. Thus I can see how you reason such and conclude such as you say. I don't agree at all but that's immaterial here as I can see how you conclude and thus understand your view. If anything that means you write well, so that's good also.

But as for the point above ...the mind follows the Ki thus is led by Ki and then when the mind knows it trains or leads the Ki. Once again yes that is clear and I understand your view. Although I don't agree with the second part but that's not really to do with this thread for this is under IP and thus not for me to argue any point. Just inquire and understand. So thanks for the explanation.

Peace.G.

Erick Mead
02-26-2013, 03:17 PM
Mochizuki Sensei specified that ki itself has both yin and yang and that aiki to can be either yin or yang. In either case, I think it would still be a combination of yin and yang.

Please comment more on this. Ki is the dynamic of oscillation (http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/but-why-7854/physical-theory-of-ki-a-dialogue-3404/) or the equivalent coinciding or alternation of opposing balanced complements -- of ... pretty much anything. It is a wholly different WAY of categorizing form, action and potential, than the western force-mass categories. Even though they often treat the same subject matter, they do not map onto one another at all -- but there are points of connection. It is completely intelligible in its own terms -- but the connecting point to western physical categories is understanding coincident complement forces/stresses and oscillatory dynamics.

There is one physical action that exhibits simultaneous yin (compression/contraction) and yang (tension/expansion) -- a shear. In shear -- tension and compression act at the same time and at right angles to one another. Shear occurs in bending stresses (in a plane) -- or more generally and more interestingly, in torsion, where they form a dual-spiral relationship around and strongest at the perimeter or skin of the object. See image: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/MByAxEvttCUaEVGr_7ChWtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

If one projects these torsional yin/yang, compression/tension shear stresses in three axes of space you get this: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/jfF5gDjFp6eRUCPjFeWB_dMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink This is basically a six-directions diagram with the "windings."

Without getting into higher maths-- the potential of rotation (stress) and actual rotations are equivalent and the center of rotations can move around in counter-intuitive -- but understandable ways. This the reason for the illusion of the bendy pencil -- your mind tracks the oscillating center of rotations in the object more than it does the object itself and as the center moves the pencil appears to bend with displacement of its travelling center of rotation. This is directly witnessing ki applied to a rigid object -- and in which your perception of the ki dominates over perception of the actual object to which it is applied. The "feel" of ki in potentials (versus actual) rotations with the kinesthetic sense within the body or any connected body is similar.

The ki, in IP/IS, is used to "feel" within the body without having to have some nerve impulse. The mind can detect both nerve impulse and the "feelings" of ki. Usually, people believe that it is the mind that is feeling, but it is not. The nerves feel and the ki feels, but the mind can only receive the impressions from those feelings and it organizes that information and takes action on it. Ki -- in the sense that I assert it, is a field quantity. If expressed in one part it is expressed in all parts-- unless there is a discontinuity. As a field quantity, what is felt in one part is felt in all parts. At a discontinuity - the field reflects itself -- which is a oscillation pattern, and one can learn to feel the orientation/placement of that reflection at the discontinuity. It is very hard to describe what it feels like -- a sense of a freedom to rotate (either folding or unfolding) and/or displacing the location of the freedom to rotate, inward or outward.

On the relation of these harmonies, this is great and succint description.
The three external harmonies are:

the feet harmonize with the hands
the knees harmonize with the elbows
the hips harmonize with the shoulders

The three internal harmonies are:

the heart harmonizes with the intent
the intent harmonizes with the qi
the qi harmonizes with the strength

A straightforward and matter of fact discussion. (http://www.i-bagua.com/six-harmonies/)

This progressive inward or outward displacement of location of rotation or the freedom to rotate I associate with these three external harmonies -- since they all track the proximal/distal coordination relationship as the body folds/unfolds or twists/untwists inward to the center or outward from it.

On the internal harmonies -- I take it thus:

Heart (xin) harmonizing with mind/intent (yi) -- directs action to reflect all action -- not to anticipate and not to react -- depending more on initiation by reflexive faculties and not by conscious direction;

Intent (yi) harmonizing with qi(k)i orients reflective/reflexive action in-phase or out of phase -- but WITH the oscillation or potential freedom to rotate -- and never directly trying to oppose the displacement itself -- and to its limit until it naturally reflects and reverses phases at a discontinuity);

Qi(ki) harmonizing with strength (li) orients the pattern of muscular additions to the action to drive (or damp) the qi(ki) flow to greater (or lesser) energy exactly -- like pumping a swing (or damping it. This is the use of resonance or critical damping -- to generate or dissipate energy in the action.

David Orange
03-03-2013, 08:33 AM
My statement was based on what you said about Ki 'feeling' and then the mind can only receive that feeling and organize accordingly. Thus Ki first. Then as you say mind being manifested or made from Ki equals once again Ki first.

No, the first is kokoro, from which ki comes into this world from non-existence.

Kokoro.

Also pronounced "shin" or "xin," and often presented as "mind".

But the "mind" required for martial arts is not pure kokoro, but kokoro (heart) balanced by the "wise" mind, the combination creating "yi" or "i".

I'm quite happy reading your explanations as it shows me also your progress and note how your reality of Ki is improving. I notice you are using the term 'feeling' too which not too long ago only a few of us on here used. All good.

I remember it mostly from the ones saying "It has to be felt."

Of course, I said in my 1/5/2011 post on "Ki Eureka" that ki is the part of our consciousness that "feels" independent of the nerves.

I mean...two people can say the same thing, more or less, but only one might know what he's talking about. So I always listen very carefully.

David

graham christian
03-03-2013, 08:43 AM
Sorry, what is also pronounced shin?

Peace, G.

David Orange
03-03-2013, 09:55 AM
Sorry, what is also pronounced shin?

Peace, G.

Kokoro can also be pronounced "shin" (sheen) in Japanese.

In Chinese, it's xin.

Ki emerges from kokoro but kokoro is just the portal from non-existence and the roots of ki are in non-existence. Since our roots are in non-existence, we, in this world, can act from non-existence.

graham christian
03-03-2013, 12:39 PM
Kokoro can also be pronounced "shin" (sheen) in Japanese.

In Chinese, it's xin.

Ki emerges from kokoro but kokoro is just the portal from non-existence and the roots of ki are in non-existence. Since our roots are in non-existence, we, in this world, can act from non-existence.

Kokoro is pronounced kokoro in Japanese. However I do see what you mean but think that's where things get a bit mixed up.

Xin is chinese and pronounced sheen in japanese.

Your thoughts on the matter come from chinese xin and that old chinese philosophy related to heart.

Anyway, your thoughts make sense from the path you are following so it's all good.

Peace.G.

David Orange
03-03-2013, 01:08 PM
Kokoro is pronounced kokoro in Japanese.

Actually, the primary Japanese pronunciation is "shin". That's the main reading and its meanings are "heart, mind, spirit".

You know, the original readings of kanji come from the Chinese pronunciation with indigenous Japanese words and pronunciation matched to the kanji. So "kokoro" is an alternate reading of the Japanese term "shin".

However I do see what you mean but think that's where things get a bit mixed up.

I wonder if you do see, Graham. And I don't think that's where things get a bit mixed up. I believe that could all be cleared up wonderfully if you would become more educated about Japan.

Xin is chinese and pronounced sheen in japanese.

They're the same character, from the same and only source, and the meaning is the same.

Your thoughts on the matter come from chinese xin and that old chinese philosophy related to heart.

As do all the Japanese teachings on the subject. I'm just wondering where your information comes from. I think everyone here would like to know that.

de mo shoganai, ne...

graham christian
03-03-2013, 02:16 PM
Actually, the primary Japanese pronunciation is "shin". That's the main reading and its meanings are "heart, mind, spirit".

You know, the original readings of kanji come from the Chinese pronunciation with indigenous Japanese words and pronunciation matched to the kanji. So "kokoro" is an alternate reading of the Japanese term "shin".

I wonder if you do see, Graham. And I don't think that's where things get a bit mixed up. I believe that could all be cleared up wonderfully if you would become more educated about Japan.

They're the same character, from the same and only source, and the meaning is the same.

As do all the Japanese teachings on the subject. I'm just wondering where your information comes from. I think everyone here would like to know that.

de mo shoganai, ne...

They come from the wise mind.

The fact that Japanese kanji originates from chinese is pretty much irrelevant as English comes from Latin, greek, etc. It's like someone wanting to prove you must understand the roman way because the words you use all come from there.

No, how we use them here and now is what needs to be understood. How each Japanese used the words they used at the time is all that matters, not the chinese origins. This trying to turn all of Ueshiba's views into old chinese bagua type views is a great mistake in my view.

Now as I have said on numerous occasions understanding English is hard enough, especially when dealing with these kind of topics so I see clearly where others trying to translate such things can easily, and I mean easily go wrong. This means heart and this means spirit and this means Ki and it's all the same.........woahhhh....no it's not. Can you tell me the difference between spirit, soul, heart, void, or even just spirit and soul in English?

Spirit has many meanings in English. Heart has many too. The word 'be' has about 14 definitions. So when someone tells me kokorro means 'x' 'y' or 'z' well already I know it might or might not. It depends who said it, when and relating to what.

Ueshiba used the word Kami quite often. Another word with different meanings and thus contexts. Mostly I hear people saying that makes Japanese a very complicated language but not to me for English is in fact much more complicated. Words have definitions and most have more than one.

Kokoro is Japanese for heart. Xin is chinese for heart. Shin is Japanese and it's basic definition is not heart. So then the question is when can it be used to mean heart? Under which definition? In what context? So saying it means heart you are inferrring that's it's basic definition and also commonly used as such by Japanese by saying it's an alternate reading of kokoro. It's like saying spirit is love. Well spirit is spirit and love is love, one is obviously not the other.

Peace.G.

David Orange
03-03-2013, 02:31 PM
They come from the wise mind.

From Henry Ellis?

No, I've seen his many corrections to you.

Everyone who has trained with legitimate Japanese masters has disagreed with you.

Japanese dictionaries disagree with you.

O Sensei disagrees with you.

The fact that Japanese kanji originates from chinese is pretty much irrelevant as English comes from Latin, greek, etc.

Mostly from German, which is not Latin based, mixed with French, which is.

It's like someone wanting to prove you must understand the roman way because the words you use all come from there.

At least, one who does understand the roots has a better chance of speaking the truth than someone who is drawing from a vague, general mishmash of misinformation.

No, how we use them here and now is what needs to be understood. How each Japanese used the words they used at the time is all that matters, not the chinese origins. This trying to turn all of Ueshiba's views into old chinese bagua type views is a great mistake in my view.

And O Sensei used terms and descriptions that are completely aligned with the old Chinese cosmology. Otherwise, why did so few of his students (all native speakers of Japanese) understand his words?

Now as I have said on numerous occasions understanding English is hard enough, especially when dealing with these kind of topics so I see clearly where others trying to translate such things can easily, and I mean easily go wrong.

We have hundreds of pages of your commentary and opinions to prove that, on this subject, at least, you are correct.

Kokoro is Japanese for heart. Xin is chinese for heart. Shin is Japanese and it's basic definition is not heart.

Grahama, I just looked it up in my Japanese writing textbook.

"Kokoro" is not even listed as a pronunciation. "Sin" (pronounced "sheen" because the Japanese pronounce "sh" but they spell it only with "s".

And the meaning of "shin" is "heart, mind, spirit."

So then the question is when can it be used to mean heart? Under which definition? In what context? So saying it means heart you are inferrring that's it's basic definition and also commonly used as such by Japanese by saying it's an alternate reading of kokoro. It's like saying spirit is love. Well spirit is spirit and love is love, one is obviously not the other.

Just stick to English, Graham, and none of this will bother you.

I have an eight-year-old and he frequently tells me "spelling doesn't matter," but I to point out to him that mis-spelling is misunderstanding. Does it matter if you spell "dog" as "d-o-g" or "g-o-d"?

As I said, "shoganai."

graham christian
03-03-2013, 03:08 PM
Heart< from old english>heorte

Spirit<latin>spiritus

Mind< old english>gemynd

Ain't it good to learn English.

You may also be interested to know that spiritus was also related to spirare meaning breath.

Peace.G.

Brett Charvat
03-03-2013, 03:34 PM
Kokoro is Japanese for heart. Xin is chinese for heart. Shin is Japanese and it's basic definition is not heart...

--I have never seen a quote that so clearly delineates an individual's complete lack of understanding of the Japanese language as this. "Shin" and "kokoro" are nothing more than two different pronunciations of the exact same kanji, with the exact same meaning. An alternate reading/pronounciation is not equivalent to an alternate definition, no matter how strongly one may wish it to be.

graham christian
03-03-2013, 04:02 PM
--I have never seen a quote that so clearly delineates an individual's complete lack of understanding of the Japanese language as this. "Shin" and "kokoro" are nothing more than two different pronunciations of the exact same kanji, with the exact same meaning. An alternate reading/pronounciation is not equivalent to an alternate definition, no matter how strongly one may wish it to be.

So having a kanji which can mean two different things means those two different things have the same meaning? I don't think so. Same kanji means only that, same kanji.

Peace.G.

bkedelen
03-03-2013, 06:59 PM
So having a kanji which can mean two different things means those two different things have the same meaning? I don't think so. Same kanji means only that, same kanji.

Why would you not just thank Brett and David for sharing their knowledge? How will we develop skill if we cannot acknowledge our mistakes? Instruction is often a hard pill to swallow, but it is rarely without value.

graham christian
03-03-2013, 07:27 PM
Why would you not just thank Brett and David for sharing their knowledge? How will we develop skill if we cannot acknowledge our mistakes? Instruction is often a hard pill to swallow, but it is rarely without value.

I thank him for doing so. I thank anyone for doing so. I thank another if I think they are right or if IO think not. I thank you for your view too.

But sorry, if anyone believes a kanji means the words it can mean equals those words have thus the same meaning then I disagree.

Kanji or any written form is a symbol representing. It is not the source.

When overseeing someone working in a chocolate factory I may tell them to box the chocolates. When supervising a boxer who is losing the plot in a contest I may tell him to box not fight.

Box means packing into a box and box means to exercise the skills of boxing. One symbol, two meanings. Two meanings do not equal each other. Only when we know this can we start looking at the two meanings independantly and not think they are the same. A fault of some who mistranslate.

Anyway, that's all from me on that for it's off topic now.

I would like to know though what heart means in relation to IP though.

Peace.G.

Dazaifoo
03-03-2013, 08:10 PM
Jumpin' Jiminy, here!
The Modern Reader's Japanese-English Character Dictionary, Second Revised Edition, 1974

心 1645/F686

SHIN heart, mind, spirit; motive, sense (of duty); padding; wick; core; marrow; vitality.

Kokoro mind, spirit; mentality; idea, thought; heart, feeling; wholeheartedness, sincerity, sympathy; attention; interest, care; will; intention; taste, mood; true meaning (of a poem); thought.

Notable compounds.
心臓  Shinzo Heart (organ)
心身  Shinshin Mind and Body
心肝  Shinkan/ Kokorogimo Heart

All clear?
Like mud.

Travers Hughes
03-03-2013, 09:32 PM
Wanted to chime in here:

見ぬが花 (minu ga hana)

Literal translation is: "Not seeing is a flower"
(One possible) translation into modern-thinking english: "Reality cannot compete with imagination".
Modern interpretations of original messages can change to suit times. The original message does not.
The kanji 花 measn flower. It can be pronounced different ways when in combination with other kanji. The base meaning of flower does not change.

Sorry to interrupt - please carry on.

Robert Cheshire
09-05-2013, 01:29 PM
Now I'm going to look back to the very roots of my aikido experience, to a document we called "Bearden's Manual." This was written by Capt. Thomas E. Bearded, US Army, stationed at Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, Alabama, where he also trained with Capt. Sadayuki Demizu, Japanese Air Self Defense Force, aikido sandan, and son-in-law of Minoru Mochizuki.

When some officers at Redstone learned of Demizu's aikido knowledge, they encouraged him to teach and he taught for some time at a rec center on base. Glenn Pack, a graduate student at the University of Alabama, was a teenaged student in Demizu's class, allowed access because his father worked on the base. Pack distributed Bearden's manual to the early generations of yoseikan aikido students at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa
So how did a military officer teach other military officers aikido? The manual begins by defining both aikido and ki:

II. GENERAL

a. AI-KI-DO : Three Japanese words which mean "the high moral Way of union of Ki."

1. AI - the union of two ki's meeting; entering into and deflecting the opponent's Ki.

2. KI - spiritual energy; body energy flow, controlled by the quiet mind.

3. DO - The Way, or high moral road of seeking enlightenment and self-mastery

This was how it was defined for the US Army by a Captain in the Japanese military studying rocket and missile technology.

The aikido he taught was much more mainstream in appearance than the yoseikan budo that supplanted it when Patrick Ague was sent at Thomas Bearden's request to Mochizuki. Demizu's aikido pretty well matched all the other aikido you could see. The pace may have been tougher with multiple military captains with black belts going full tilt...

David

David,

Did you know the book is available again? http://www.cheniere.org/sales/buy-ya.htm
I know you have an affinity for traditional Yoseikan and probably still have the original but wanted to pass the info along to you all the same.