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Dan Richards
02-15-2013, 06:12 AM
If you're reading this for this first time, check the topic on "resonance" first.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22330

When a body is moving energy through it, that moving energy needs to drain out of the body. This is vitally important. This is the same concept as a sink with running water. The water must constantly drain, or it gets back up. That's exactly what happens with your body when we don't properly drain the energy AS it runs through.

A few misconceptions. We do not get power from the ground. The earth has no power. It's receptive. All power in the earth comes from the sun. See the "Trees grow from the air, not the ground video" in this forum. Even power that's in the earth, came/comes from the sun.

When you jump a car battery, all the power comes from the positive lead. The ground lead can be attached anywhere on the car that will allow the charge to drain. Often the frame of the car is even better than the negative contact on the battery.

The best way to decouple a body, is to provide a structure at the bottom of the body that best allows the energy to drain the most efficiently.

Flat feet: Have you ever had neighbors above you that had speakers directly on the floor - and it felt like the music - especially the low end - was just booming all over the place. What they'd basically done is to turn their entire floor - and the walls - and to some degree the entire building into a big speaker. Feet placed flatly on the ground - or floor - act in the same way as your neighbors speakers on the floor. And those vibrations and built up resonances not only go back into the speaker body (your body) but they also "couple" with the floor and walls. Making all that "one body." A big mess.

You've also heard of a "heat sink" a similar process. It drains the heat away by quickly draining the heat (energy) to a larger surface area where it can dissipate. And that's why they call a kitchen sink a "sink." Sink does not mean to "lower your body structure vertically." It means to discharge the energy in your body through your legs - to your feet and toes - and out in the the ground.

The energy in your body, in order to drain and dissipate fast enough so that you don't turn into a big overcharged battery - is by "decoupling" your body with the ground/floor. The way to do that is by forming a smaller coupled surface at the lowest part of the structure- ideally in an upside down cone shape - that allows the energy to spiral downward - out of the body - and into the ground/floor.

You have something that's shaped just like upside-down cones on your feet. The toes.

--- more coming ---

Dan Richards
02-15-2013, 06:25 AM
If you've ever seen those pointy legs on a kick drum, people might think it's to stick into the floor to keep the drum from sliding. Well, that may be one of the side benefits. But the purpose of the spike is to "decouple" the drum from the floor - allowing the energy to drain - rather than remain in the drum.

http://www.trickdrums.com/images/bdl1618ftc-u7211.png

You can see this also with the use of inverted cones under audiophile speakers, turntables, audio equipment, and audio storage racks. The purpose is to "decouple" and drain the energy moving through the various components.

http://i1.wp.com/www.synthtopia.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/vpi-scout.jpg?w=640

Contrary to some popular believe, components and bodies can not be "isolated." You put a big piece of foam under a speaker and isolate it - because you can't isolate the speaker from itself. So, even with foam under it - the energy doesn't drain. In fact foam can make it even worse, because you're adding an acoustically absorbant material to the structure of the speaker, making the body of the speaker even more dead.

Dan Richards
02-15-2013, 06:49 AM
So, if you're come this far, that gets us back to draining the residual energy from our bodies - that's not expelled by movement - into the ground. Let's get back to those upside-down toes. The cones. Our body's own decoupling devices.

We want the shape on the feet to take up as little surface of the ground as possible, and also concentrate on the toes - with the most attention to the big toe. You will often see those experienced in aiki up on their toes and ball of the foot. This creates 7 decoupling cones - one on each toe, and two on the ball - one each near the outside of the ball of the foot.

Irimi - is not a "step." Irimi is a movement - directed by the core. The movement of irimi places major emphasis on the big toe. On the physical level, the big toe is absolutely the business end of irimi - as it decouples the body and drains the energy produced in the body, by the movement of the core, into the ground.

That is where the power of the movement comes from. The power does not result from bringing it up from the ground. There is no power in the ground. The power is created by the continuous flow of positive energy into the body.

Energy that remains in the body when it is not desired, is called "negative energy." Negative energy is great when it runs into the ground. It's not so great when it is in your body. That's having the "sink" back up.

I hope this gives you a better and more accurate understanding of the term "sink."

Hopefully, with these initial notes you understand more about the importance of decoupling. I want to work this into something that's simple with examples that are easy to understand. So, any questions and comments are welcome. Cheers...

Budd
02-15-2013, 10:05 AM
Kinda too all over the place for me to follow and buy into - you lost me when you said one does not get power from the ground.

Dan Richards
02-15-2013, 10:19 AM
Budd, I just noticed you break your own connection when you ran into something that questioned your theology. What makes you think you get power from the ground?

It's a rough draft, but it's not "all over the place." Decoupling is a very simple electromechanical concept.

scott.swank
02-15-2013, 11:22 AM
You lost me too. This seems a discourse on purely speculative matters, yet it is presented with a particular authority.

Are you talking about bio-mechanical energy or some sort of spiritual energy? It is never entirely clear, at least not to me.

In your first post you reference a skin "topology", but as a topologist I'm not sure that's the word you want.

In your second post you make analogies to decoupling in electronics, but that is a matter of ensuring that separate sub-systems have independent energy supplies (e.g. you know how your radio may cut out when you start your car? those are not decoupled subsystems or you would not see that effect). Again I'm not sure this is the word you want.

All that aside, I think that the mental structures people build up to make sense of aikido (and no doubt a great many other endeavors) are a very interesting and at times mysterious thing. O Sensei understood certain things via the kami, Koichi Tohei as ki, perhaps you as resonance and damping (I don't want to speak for you...). Why do so many of us build up these icons and symbols to understand our practice? And because aikido is as much a mental art as a physical one, how do these mental structures manifest themselves in our practice? To me this is a significant question in understanding aikido.

Cheers.

Dan Richards
02-15-2013, 12:07 PM
Hi Scott, this is simple mechanical energy. Basic physics. Nothing more. Nothing spiritual about it. No bio-mechanics involved.

You bring up a good point about topology. Even just the fact that it's not clear is enough for me to chuck it out. How about the word "model."

OK, here' s rough draft of the quicky "elevator pitch."

============================================

All we're going to do here is take an already existing drum - our bodies. Tune up the entire skin - as a single skin - like a drumhead. From that - the body resonates more clearly. We then decouple the resonator through the feet (mainly the toes) - to allow for draining energy into the ground. And the last bit is to work with the torso - which is the main resonator. The outer part of the torso/shell resonator is the circumference of the hips in rotation. The inner part of the torso/shell is circumference of sacral rotation. The inner part is also known as the core. That inner core is the same as a magnet on a speaker. We then - with some practice - build a unified body that can be efficiently move from the core.

============================================

We put these simple parts together, in an easily understandable model that people can get - without any confusion - and start using - and getting results.

These posts are me riffing off some notes, and wanting people to come along and help me whittle it down to something simple and easily understandable. Your comments are exactly what I'm looking for to tighten this all up.

I like what you wrote on the last paragraph. I want to chew on it a bit, and I'll reply to that in another post.

Budd
02-15-2013, 12:08 PM
Hi Dan,

The baseline entree point into internal strength - pointing at lots of common ground (pun intended), commonalities and similarities laid out by many giants in both CMA and JMA is that notion of balancing the intersection of gravity pulling you down and the earth below you pushing up - basics of groundpath to use the Sigman terminology - so that any external force that's presented to you, is able to be directed to the ground in as pure a form as possible. That's by no means the full extent of "sourcing power from the ground" but it's the very basic entry point that most point to when you talk commonalities and overlaps of varying noted perspectives of IS.

If you're postulating that power comes from the sun - it's a basic deviation of imagery, but I can forgive it if you're expanding the physics notions to include the gravitational effects of the sun on the earth and how we exist in the middle, but since you jump into the spiral mechanics bits and tie the decoupling to rooting with your toes, it's too much of a stretch when there's too many other components in the progression that I haven't seen referenced, yet.

Be that as it may -- keep going with your metaphor, I'll reserve more scrutiny until you've fleshed it out a bit more. Right now it seems like it's a loose idea, but I can't tie it very well to traditional notions of internal strength and the pseudo-science isn't rigorous enough to withstand hard testing.

Dan Richards
02-15-2013, 12:47 PM
The baseline entree point into internal strength - pointing at lots of common ground (pun intended), commonalities and similarities laid out by many giants in both CMA and JMA is that notion of balancing the intersection of gravity pulling you down and the earth below you pushing up - basics of groundpath to use the Sigman terminology - so that any external force that's presented to you, is able to be directed to the ground in as pure a form as possible. That's by no means the full extent of "sourcing power from the ground" but it's the very basic entry point that most point to when you talk commonalities and overlaps of varying noted perspectives of IS.

Thanks, Budd.

The idea that the "earth" is pushing anything up - is incorrect. The Earth "sucks," literally.

That pushing up is not occurring. What is occurring is the releasing of the temporarily-stored positive energy. If you squat down, and then jump up - the power is not coming from the earth. It's coming from the stored energy in your legs that you compressed when you did the squat. And the energy is not released up. It's released down. That why we go up. The energy is drained - most effectively - and "in as pure a form as possible" through the decoupling of the body and the earth - through the inverted cones created by mainly the toes. And out of the toes - mainly at a point on the bottom of the big toe.

Dan Richards
02-15-2013, 12:51 PM
If you're postulating that power comes from the sun - it's a basic deviation of imagery...

Excellent. Yes, it is. And I will.

Budd
02-15-2013, 01:09 PM
Thanks, Budd.

The idea that the "earth" is pushing anything up - is incorrect. The Earth "sucks," literally.

That pushing up is not occurring. What is occurring is the releasing of the temporarily-stored positive energy. If you squat down, and then jump up - the power is not coming from the earth. It's coming from the stored energy in your legs that you compressed when you did the squat. And the energy is not released up. It's released down. That why we go up. The energy is drained - most effectively - and "in as pure a form as possible" through the decoupling of the body and the earth - through the inverted cones created by mainly the toes. And out of the toes - mainly at a point on the bottom of the big toe.

This might be a primary disconnect, then - since if you're not understanding how the ground provides a counter force to gravity - without you having to do anything, flex any muscles, etc. Internal strength at it's baseline takes advantage of that when you push on the ground, the ground pushes back - how purely you've trained your body (to cite your example of the legs above - there's much more than that going on) to capitalize on this will affect the effect you have when you move/hit/throw with internal strength.

Dan Richards
02-15-2013, 01:49 PM
This might be a primary disconnect, then - since if you're not understanding how the ground provides a counter force to gravity - without you having to do anything, flex any muscles, etc. Internal strength at it's baseline takes advantage of that when you push on the ground, the ground pushes back - how purely you've trained your body (to cite your example of the legs above - there's much more than that going on) to capitalize on this will affect the effect you have when you move/hit/throw with internal strength.

I agree with - - without you having to do anything, flex any muscles, etc. Because, there is absolutely no "pushing" involved. At all. In any way. Ever. There is only releasing/draining.

And you'll come around on the rest. : ) This is simple physics. Jet propulsion. Even bottle rockets - fueled by carbon. What's carbon? Stored energy from the sun. The bottle rocket doesn't go up - or in your neighbor's wife's beehive hairdo - because it's pushing or being pushed. It's being propelled ( <--- note that word ) by the release of the energy in the carbon.

When you make a campfire, what makes the wood burn? Where does the energy come from to produce the fire? The earth. bzzz. Sorry, wrong answer. The tree. bzzz. Ooh, sorry again, wrong answer. Contestant number three... The sun. ding, ding, ding, ding. Hal, we have a winner, tell him what he's won.

Walter Martindale
02-15-2013, 03:00 PM
If the ground doesn't push back, you sink into the ground and gravity wins. It's called the "ground reaction force." When you jump, you may provide the energy (ok, ATP does - ok glucose does - ok, the sun makes the photosynthesis that makes the starches that get turned into ATP that gets used to produce muscular contractions which you use to cause your legs (lever system) to push on the ground and jump. When the force created by you against the ground is greater than the force holding you on the ground (gravity) you jump. But if the ground didn't push back, your feet would sink. If you jump on thin ice, it's not able to push back enough, and your feet go through (brr).

RonRagusa
02-15-2013, 03:07 PM
This might be a primary disconnect, then - since if you're not understanding how the ground provides a counter force to gravity - without you having to do anything, flex any muscles, etc. Internal strength at it's baseline takes advantage of that when you push on the ground, the ground pushes back - how purely you've trained your body (to cite your example of the legs above - there's much more than that going on) to capitalize on this will affect the effect you have when you move/hit/throw with internal strength.

The ground does not provide a counter force to gravity in the sense of the ground manufacturing energy and adding it to the ground/person system. The stability of bulk matter (the reason the ground supports you, even under reasonable loading) is explained by the Pauli exclusion principle (short range) in combination with Coulomb's law (long range). Reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle#Stability_of_matter.

Even if you wish to contend that Pauli and Coulomb are forces, the net gain/loss of energy in the system as a whole is zero, the system is in a state of equilibrium. In short, the ground does not provide you with any usable potential energy which you may convert to kinetic energy and use to perform work.

Ron

ps - If someone can show me the physics of how "Internal strength at it's baseline takes advantage of that when you push on the ground, the ground pushes back " I will happily stand corrected. :)

chillzATL
02-15-2013, 03:39 PM
ps - If someone can show me the physics of how "Internal strength at it's baseline takes advantage of that when you push on the ground, the ground pushes back " I will happily stand corrected. :)

Hold a steel pole (or any solid, strong material) to your chest, start running as fast as you can and then drop that pole into the ground like a pole vaulter would. While laying on the ground sorting things out you can ask yourself if it was the pole that laid you out or if it was the solidity of the ground pushing back at you, the force, through the pole.

Erick Mead
02-15-2013, 08:02 PM
The ground does not provide a counter force to gravity in the sense of the ground manufacturing energy and adding it to the ground/person system. The stability of bulk matter (the reason the ground supports you, even under reasonable loading) is explained by the Pauli exclusion principle (short range) in combination with Coulomb's law (long range). Reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle#Stability_of_matter.

Another way of understanding mass inertia under the Pauli exclusion principle is by analogy to a randomized angular momentum field. All mass particles have intrinsic spin regardless of charge (Pauli) AND many have an "orbital" spin (Coulomb) between charged particles. Spin, like a gyroscope, resists planar rotations. This is the source of many properties we associate with the mass of matter.

Fermions (which exhibit "mass") obey the exclusion principle and have half-integer spin. The -- half integer spin -- is like a single gyro (or an odd and therefore unbalanced number of them). Being randomized the single gyro (half-integer) spins of a mass of fermion particles resist all applied moments in all orientations more or less equally (push or pull), hence the inertial mass properties of matter.

Bosons (like photons and Cooper pairs and few others) have integer spin -- and do not obey the exclusion priniciple -- Integer spin is like each particle having two equal and opposite half-integer gyroscopes at right angles to one another (or a balanced and even number of them). They don't interfere with each other at all. But since each automatically counters the out of plane resistance of the other when a planar rotation is applied -- no resulting resistance is seen and thus mass inertia is not a property of bosons. What seems a lack of a property is in fact a great deal more of something else.

Inertial cancellation is seen when spins of fermions are paired in a way to make them a zero-spin condensate -- which makes then into a constructive boson, and thus losing many mass properties. Superfluid helium exhibits this inertial cancellation -- and for this reason -- as it achieves a zero-spin state.

Photons have zero mass. But photons have momentum and often a very large amount of it. Radiometers work. Gamma rays, anyone? (Paging Dr. Banner!) (Query: Does the Hulk exhibit internal strength/power?)

This analogy to macroscopic spins illustrates why zero mass with momentum can be the case -- and why momentum, which we usually treated as a synthetic quantity of mass times velocity, is actually a more fundamental quantity of nature than mass. Mass can be seen as merely one analytic abstract of the more concrete quantity of momentum. The orienting aspect of orbiting charged particles under Coulomb's Law is left as an exercise for the class.

In other words -- it really is all about the spirals. :D

Michael Hackett
02-15-2013, 08:17 PM
My head is spinning.......if we need the smallest possible connection to drain the power stored in our bodies, the toes and balls of the feet, why is circle walking so important to some CMA? Damn, why was I an English major? Do you want fries while you explain your theories?

Erick Mead
02-15-2013, 08:45 PM
My head is spinning.......if we need the smallest possible connection to drain the power stored in our bodies, the toes and balls of the feet, why is circle walking so important to some CMA? Damn, why was I an English major? Do you want fries while you explain your theories?
Circle walking trains the body to use alternating torque stresses (closing and opening, weighted and unweighted) from core to the ground and to extremities and back again.

Dual opposed spirals.

Boson-zhang? :D

RonRagusa
02-15-2013, 10:44 PM
Hold a steel pole (or any solid, strong material) to your chest, start running as fast as you can and then drop that pole into the ground like a pole vaulter would. While laying on the ground sorting things out you can ask yourself if it was the pole that laid you out or if it was the solidity of the ground pushing back at you, the force, through the pole.

Assuming the pole is of sufficient diameter to not go through me when I drop it to the ground, what knocks me down is the fact that my chest and the end of the pole cannot occupy the same space at the same time. My forward momentum is stopped in the upper half of my body while the lower half of my body carries on, taking me off my feet. The kinetic energy I supplied by running experiences a sudden change of direction and I am, in effect, moving in two directions at once. The ground provides no force, only a stable place for the pole to rest.

Try the same experiment without any forward momentum supplied by you. Stand still and lean into the pole with all the energy you can muster... you will not fall... you will not be propelled backwards... you will not enjoy the feeling of the pole jabbing into your chest.

Ron

Michael Hackett
02-15-2013, 11:50 PM
Alternating torque stresses and dual spirals......as I understand it, one of the fundamental principles of circle walking is to place the foot flat on the deck with all surfaces of the foot touching at once. That seems to be the exact opposite of what the OP suggests builds this amazing strength. Am I misunderstanding what the OP wrote? Am I misunderstanding the principle of circle walking I mentioned? Aren't they mutually exclusive?

Would you like to supersize your order?

Dan Richards
02-16-2013, 08:59 AM
Michael, watch the feet in this "Walking the Circle" video. He's moving heal-to-toe. And watch as the back foot - at any given point - leaves the ground. The last contact he makes is with the big toe. Decoupling and draining the energy before the foot moves into the next position - directed by the core.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdoLKvgRrOY

Another one. He even mentions..."My toe, my big toe... at 5:57
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x18Lt2yAuH8

Dan Richards
02-16-2013, 09:09 AM
This is a good short video of Tissier doing irimi nage. The second half is in slow mo. Watch his feet. Watch his toes. And watch how at the end of the movement he even moves his core forward enough that the back left foot rises a bit off the ground. Leaving just the front right foot - with the big toe as the decoupler for his entire body. The timing of uke being released corresponds simultaneously with the draining of the energy into the ground from the front big toe. The energy of uke is drained through nage as well.

Even notice the two small irimi movements at 14-17 seconds. There's serious drainage going on all over the place. For anyone looking to "get this" idea of decoupling, even on an intellectual level, watch this video over and over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsMemmqLyqA

Dan Richards
02-16-2013, 09:36 AM
Shioda has a masterful outer embodiment of this concept. Whereas some aikidoka might have hidden it a bit more, Shioda is clearly flaunting it. Watch his feet. Just his feet. Keep in mind the spiraling draining of energy. And zoom in on his big toes. Don't look at anything else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxPlQGxvoy0

Dan Richards
02-16-2013, 09:42 AM
In Shioda's book (http://books.google.com/books?id=4dcQwX7V2dgC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=aikido+the+big+toe&source=bl&ots=YhMusIt4D2&sig=UAPeGIHRDsmRxgbdWyfmruC4xzo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OagfUazYG-qs0AGq2IDoBQ&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=aikido%20the%20big%20toe&f=false) he mentions, "the power should be concentrated on the big toe..."

David Orange
02-16-2013, 10:46 AM
When a body is moving energy through it, that moving energy needs to drain out of the body. This is vitally important. This is the same concept as a sink with running water. The water must constantly drain, or it gets back up. That's exactly what happens with your body when we don't properly drain the energy AS it runs through.

Now, Ark amazed me with one statement: "You keep your energy inside yourself. You don't send it outside yourself."

Another thing, the old, old saying about jin is that it "begins in the soles of the feet, is directed by the waist and manifested in the fingertips." That is all within the body.

My understanding of this is that this jin within the body is springy and repellant to pressure--peng jin is the "ward off" energy. If you push someone who has peng jin, none of your force enters his body. It is repelled and redirected by the peng energy. So you neither send nor receive energy because your jin stays inside you and their force gets shed to the ground.

This is similar to what you're saying but I feel that either I'm missing what you're saying or you're missing the nature of peng.

A few misconceptions. We do not get power from the ground. The earth has no power. It's receptive. All power in the earth comes from the sun. See the "Trees grow from the air, not the ground video" in this forum. Even power that's in the earth, came/comes from the sun.

Well, what is gravity? I don't think the sun is involved in that. Gravity comes from the mass of the earth and that is the "ground power"--the pull of the earth on the body. No energy comes into or goes out of the body in that. The jin power comes from working in accordance with that downward power of the earth. The human nervous system reacts to the pressure of weight on the feet by extending the spine in exactly the opposite direction--straight up. And I believe this response is an expression of peng jin and its source in martial arts.

So your comments leave me uncertain about what you mean.

David

David Orange
02-16-2013, 10:51 AM
These posts are me riffing off some notes, and wanting people to come along and help me whittle it down to something simple and easily understandable.

I think you should supplement your conceptual models of drums and electronics with maybe a video of you applying resonance in aikido.

As it is, both the scientific side and the martial arts side sound a bit shaky here.

Thanks.

David

David Orange
02-16-2013, 10:59 AM
Thanks, Budd.

The idea that the "earth" is pushing anything up - is incorrect. The Earth "sucks," literally.

That pushing up is not occurring. What is occurring is the releasing of the temporarily-stored positive energy. If you squat down, and then jump up - the power is not coming from the earth. It's coming from the stored energy in your legs that you compressed when you did the squat. And the energy is not released up. It's released down. That why we go up. The energy is drained - most effectively - and "in as pure a form as possible" through the decoupling of the body and the earth - through the inverted cones created by mainly the toes. And out of the toes - mainly at a point on the bottom of the big toe.

The earth only pulls us downward. It is the human nervous system response to gravity that "pushes" us upward. This is easily seen when you take an infant who is lying on his back and pull his hands forward so that his weight moves fully onto his feet. At that moment, both of the infant's legs will fully straighten and his spine will lengthen fully with his head "level" to the horizon. Moreover, this is a sudden and powerful movement, almost like magnetic repulsion. This process begins before the child is able to stand independently. It is an unconscious and involuntary nervous system response.

I believe that is the point where the human body translates the downward pull of gravity into the horizontal power of jin. But jin remains within the body and it does not allow the attacker's "energy" to enter the body because its nature is "warding off" or "repelling."

Have you attended any of the seminars you cite, with Mike, Dan, Ark or others?

Thanks.

David

Dan Richards
02-16-2013, 01:29 PM
Hey Dave, I'm with you about babies. They're amazing teachers.

Here's a baby working his Moro reflex. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erythu7xZ1U

Great extension. Creates a tuned outer diaphragm by stretching his skin, which drains and neutralizes the energy in his body. Then, on the next inhalation, discharges the remaining energy by sounding his inner diaphragm - through that little cry. Baby Kotodama. A true master.

David Orange
02-16-2013, 04:39 PM
Hey Dave, I'm with you about babies. They're amazing teachers.

Here's a baby working his Moro reflex. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erythu7xZ1U

Great extension. Creates a tuned outer diaphragm by stretching his skin, which drains and neutralizes the energy in his body. Then, on the next inhalation, discharges the remaining energy by sounding his inner diaphragm - through that little cry. Baby Kotodama. A true master.

I attended a dance class today where the teacher was talking about some of the same things you're saying.

I am much more comfortable with some of your statements in the context of dance than I am with them in martial arts.

A dancer doesn't need to justify anything they say.

A martial artist must justify his words with proofs.

And it's not good to put up a picture of Shioda to back you up because you're just saying that you understand what he's doing. In martial arts, we can't justify our words with someone else's ability. Our understanding has to be expressed in our own bodies.

I'll be interested in seeing you apply your ideas in your own action.

David

Dan Richards
02-17-2013, 02:46 AM
David, I think you've got some valid points; much of which would be under the heading of "framing;" which I'll be including in the tool set.

sakumeikan
02-17-2013, 07:35 AM
I agree with - - without you having to do anything, flex any muscles, etc. Because, there is absolutely no "pushing" involved. At all. In any way. Ever. There is only releasing/draining.

And you'll come around on the rest. : ) This is simple physics. Jet propulsion. Even bottle rockets - fueled by carbon. What's carbon? Stored energy from the sun. The bottle rocket doesn't go up - or in your neighbor's wife's beehive hairdo - because it's pushing or being pushed. It's being propelled ( <--- note that word ) by the release of the energy in the carbon.

When you make a campfire, what makes the wood burn? Where does the energy come from to produce the fire? The earth. bzzz. Sorry, wrong answer. The tree. bzzz. Ooh, sorry again, wrong answer. Contestant number three... The sun. ding, ding, ding, ding. Hal, we have a winner, tell him what he's won.
Dear Dan,
If someone lights a camp fire around midnight when the sun is not shining would the guy be wasting his time since you state that the sun makes the fire light?Sorry your theory is losing me big time.Then again I am possibly a dumb cluck. Cheers, Joe
Ps Ok, the sun may well generate energy, but once generated the wood plus the match makes the fire [given that the wood is dry , and the matches/blowtorch iare working.The wood by itself in an situation where there is no sun is not going to spontaneously combust.Only Moses witnessed the Burning Bush [ not the Ex President ].

Erick Mead
02-17-2013, 09:34 AM
Analogies or metaphors need to be correct if they are going to do useful work to extend valid concepts. But this -- just isn't:

The earth has no power. It's receptive. All power in the earth comes from the sun. . Even power that's in the earth, came/comes from the sun..... Even power that's in the earth, came/comes from the sun.

While the sun is a mighty contributor of power -- the earth generates a great deal of power in the form of heat from internal radioactive decay (~30 TW give or take) and -- more critically for this conversation -- about half of that amount of power in the form of structural energies (~16 TW +/-). (TW is a trillion watts, -- which to scale it, is the power of 10 billion 100W lightbulbs -- and the total electrical generating capacity of the entire United States is about 1TW.)

Structural energies in the earth are formed by heat imbalances, phase changes, by discontinuities in stresses, and the inherently contradictory stress shears between the core and various layers out to and including the crust. And of course, Gravity. And also tidal friction (which is far more caused by the Moon than the Sun).

These energies get released in the plastic creep movements of tectonics, and in the sudden energetic vibrations of earthquakes -- and there is where you should be concentrating your conceptual analogies on this topic -- as analogous forms of dynamics are present in the various expressions of these structural power principles as applied to martial forms of action.

IMO. FWIW.

Mert Gambito
02-17-2013, 12:01 PM
Dan,

Perhaps it would help if you described how your model works using a scenario. Let's go with an old standard: a push test in which the uke presses a hand to your chest. . . .

Michael Douglas
02-17-2013, 12:02 PM
If you're reading this for this first time, check the topic on "resonance" first.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22330

When a body is moving energy through it, that moving energy needs to drain out of the body. ...

The energy in your body, in order to drain and dissipate fast enough so that you don't turn into a big overcharged battery - is by "decoupling" your body with the ground/floor. ...-
OK, I went and read that again.


Very simple, your body resonates - literally sounds various notes - through numerous sources, including movement, breath, residual energy, etc.

And it is important to not allow a build up of resonance in the body. Whatever "collection of energy" that's in the body at any given moment - needs to move through and out of the body. Not get stuck and backed up.

Resonance is moved out of the body by "decoupling." Which I'll explain in another post.
What if our bodies do NOT resonate?

What if they DO resonate according only to your definition of resonate (which we do not have), but don't need to decouple?

What if we DO need to decouple : what BAD happens if we don't decouple?

What if a flat foot on the ground is BETTER (than a big toe) for whatever you mean by "decoupling"?
Can you test and see which is best? Can you measure a resonance, a backing-up, a decoupling?

And for the railway buffs, you certainly mean something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to the REAL meaning of "decoupling", right? When two carriages are separated = decoupling.

Dan Richards
02-17-2013, 12:12 PM
Hi sakumeikan, thanks for jumping in and trying to wrap your head around some of this. I'll be able to present this in a unified work soon. And people popping by, and either supporting and getting some of it, or showing me where I'm not being clear, or sounding too far out, is a huge help.

The wood being stored solar energy is not my theory. It's hard science. Listen to Richard Feynman explain it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITpDrdtGAmo

Trees don't come out of the ground - they come out of the air.

Michael Douglas
02-17-2013, 02:45 PM
...
The wood being stored solar energy is not my theory. It's hard science. Listen to Richard Feynman explain it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITpDrdtGAmo

Trees don't come out of the ground - they come out of the air.
As Feynman said, the wood ISN'T stored solar energy, the wood comes out of the air ... the sun allows the tree to grow by knocking Oxygen out of Carbon Dioxide leaving Carbon (and water) to make more tree.
When you burn the wood, the energy that comes out is stored solar energy.
The details are IMPORTANT and you're deliberately getting it wrong.
Why? Heck you posted the links yourself!

Michael Hackett
02-17-2013, 05:55 PM
Dan, did you actually watch the videos on circle walking you cited? In the first, Kent Howard Sifu does, in fact, move from heel to toe as he circle walks. In the second, Eli Montaigue Sifu, does not and contradicts Howard Sifu, both physically and orally. I call your attention to 1:47 and 9:50 of Montaaigue Sifu's video where he is emphatic about not rocking forward to the toes. Your cited point at 5:57 had absolutely nothing to do with the vertical orientation of the foot, but rather placing the toe in a specific position along the circumferance of the circle.

I don't practice baqua and have only watched a few videos of the circle walking, but all the others I've watched have emphasized keeping the foot flat as it lands on the ground. This small inconsistancy causes me to doubt your credibility concerning your concepts, but I eagarly await your next posting as it may explain the things I find concerning in the first two.

All that said, I do appreciate the effort you are making here.

Dan Richards
02-18-2013, 03:14 AM
I call your attention to ... 9:50

Yes, he says "centered on the heal." The heal is also another drainage point. And I emphasize point. Watch his kicks he demonstrates 2:00 - look how much energy he discharges. It's like a cloud around him. It's that very energy that you don't want in the body.

This actually has nothing to do with getting power. The power's already there. This all about discharging the power - getting rid of it. Flushing the toilet. Decoupling - with small points - on the feet - and on the fingers - which create powerful vortexes that literally suck the energy out.

If we don't create them, then we get energy backed up. It's interesting that when someone does something not very well, we call it "shitty." And funny how we call something good - we say it's done "well."

Another way to look at it - although it's ultimately contorted and requires special shoes, but it works - is the ballet dancer up on their toe - spinning on a single toe. It's even called "on point."

I'll just add this; although I don't want to get too much into it at this point; the creation of vortexes change spacial relationships. Including the 3-D of height, length, and width. But also the 4th spacial dimension of "time." These movements - by coming from a magnetic core field - change the fabric of the space around them, including time. Yes, you bend time.

Dan Richards
02-18-2013, 03:59 AM
The details are IMPORTANT...

Actually, the "details" are trivial and don't matter at all.

We're not concerned with details here, we're concerned with core. With source. Not cause and not effect.

Right out of Merriam's - 1. : extended treatment of or attention to particular items.

That's not what this is about. Aiki has no details.

Alex Megann
02-18-2013, 04:02 AM
As Feynman said, the wood ISN'T stored solar energy, the wood comes out of the air ... the sun allows the tree to grow by knocking Oxygen out of Carbon Dioxide leaving Carbon (and water) to make more tree.
When you burn the wood, the energy that comes out is stored solar energy.
The details are IMPORTANT and you're deliberately getting it wrong.
Why? Heck you posted the links yourself!

In the words of a former US president, it depends what you mean by "is"...

My own feeling is that it isn't helpful to talk about "stored solar energy" anyway, since "stored" suggests some kind of foresight. Perhaps potatoes and carrots "store" energy, and maybe the high energy content of seeds might be "stored" for later use, but I don't think trees do. To first order, trees just grow and make more trees.

The global ecosystem (Brian Cox's current BBC series explains this quite well, in my opinion) maintains and propagates itself by converting high-free-energy solar power into less useful forms of energy.

Alex

Michael Douglas
02-18-2013, 10:45 AM
OK, now that your cards are on the table ;
This actually has nothing to do with getting power. The power's already there. This all about discharging the power - getting rid of it. Flushing the toilet. Decoupling - with small points - on the feet - and on the fingers - which create powerful vortexes that literally suck the energy out..
I have to absolutely disagree with your whole idea. Everything.

Erick Mead
02-18-2013, 11:05 AM
It's hard science. Listen to Richard Feynman explain it.
Actually, the "details" are trivial and don't matter at all. ...
That's not what this is about. Aiki has no details.

You were more right the first time:

Indeed, please listen -- Feynman explained concisely what the discipline of science IS--- and what it isn't:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b240PGCMwV0

An elegant theory is always slain by one ugly little fact. Details -- are indispensable. As it should be...

And sometimes irreconcilable theories are joined seamlessly by some other ugly little fact...

As to Shioda's "big toe" view of Aiki ("ball of the foot" is an closer functional translation, in my view) -- versus Montague's weighted heel in Bagua -- these actually are inverses of the EXACT same principle (in-yo).

Walking (very primitive (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py8Bcfo7z0g)) is governed by a coordinated set of structural signals driven by the muscle spindle receptor organs -- when the weighted extended leg is suddenly unweighted, the flexor reflex triggers (seen even in infants) -- and which in a normal gait shortens the posterior leg causing the free swing of the leg forward slightly above ground level and without any muscular driver at all. Walking is very efficient for this reason -- though the reflex pathway fades and has to be reestablished in learning to walk self-supported. A related aspect is the stretch reflex. Any muscle that experiences a sudden (esp. resonant -- ~5-10 Hz ) stretch, will contract -- as the thigh contracts when the knee tendon is tapped sharply.

Montaigue is thus entirely correct to focus on weighting the heel in terms of maintaining dynamic structural stability in movement without relying on voluntary musculature -- both conserving energy for the fight and removing structural cues of intent that your opponent might respond to.

What Shioda is doing in rising to the balls of his feet is two things 1) enabling the drop of his center to the ground to power his aiki-sage AND being able to driving off his heels to his toes in aiki-age -- and 2) enlarging the stability region of his dynamic balance center giving him more structural room and therefore more potential power to play with.

The latter you can demonstrate yourself -- stand flat-footed, and bow yourself backwards as far as you can "statically." Then -- raise your heels off the floor and keeping bowing backward on the ball of your feet -- you can go much farther. In fact both balance schemes are NOT static, but dynamic -- and the rising to the toes increases the sway stability regions of the body as a whole by introducing one more degree of freedom, by freeing the ankle from the ground.

Shioda is thus entirely correct in focussing his weight and action at the ball of the foot in terms of maintaining dynamic structural stability in movement.

Both are right.

When we bounce ourselves on and off our heels dynamically in furitama and tekubifuri we make these semi-reflexive connections within our own bodies that both drive these forms of structural actions, and habituate our bodies to both modulate them AND to damp them from causing reflexive action in our own bodies. in fact this normal vertical bounce -- which we naturally damp into an amplitude so small we do not notice it -- is itself the the source of our vertical stability (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHTibqThCTU).

These structural sensors are most sensitive at these resonant frequencies -- because a driven resonance can become highly destructive even a low energy. This training teaches the structure to damp the applied oscillations themselves reflexively -- making them simply an expanded part of normal stability action -- rather than simply going hard over -- up or down.

In doing so, we then learn to apply such driven oscillations through the body into the opponent and which -- depending on which phase is used, "up or down," loosely speaking -- causes the involuntary stretch reflexes to trigger extensor (aiki-sage) or flexor (aiki-age) muscles of the supporting limbs, respectively causing a buckling collapse of his structure, or causing him to pop up off the ground.

Because a static moment is simply a potential of a rotation/oscillation -- the structural forms of correct stress tension in the body propagate in a similar way in the opponent to channel his own reactions along the same the reflexive pathways -- by his own resistance causing the reflex to be triggered (or always on the cusp of being triggered), and thus preventing effective resistance along the paths that those those reflexive actions would take. (Kokyu tanden ho). This training is a way of slowing down the action to observe it and its forms and its stress disposition more closely.

jonreading
02-18-2013, 01:14 PM
If you're reading this for this first time, check the topic on "resonance" first.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22330

When a body is moving energy through it, that moving energy needs to drain out of the body. This is vitally important. This is the same concept as a sink with running water. The water must constantly drain, or it gets back up. That's exactly what happens with your body when we don't properly drain the energy AS it runs through.
Is this literal? I usually do not ever feel in a state of "overcharge" - no do I usually train to retain [any] energy that enters my body, or even allow it to enter my body.

A few misconceptions. We do not get power from the ground. The earth has no power. It's receptive. All power in the earth comes from the sun. See the "Trees grow from the air, not the ground video" in this forum. Even power that's in the earth, came/comes from the sun.
I am not sure about this. Gravity pulls us into the Earth, but Earth spinning pulls us away from the Earth; the balance of these forces keeps us both from being flung into space or squished. Sounds to me like we can get power from both the Earth or the Heavens...

When you jump a car battery, all the power comes from the positive lead. The ground lead can be attached anywhere on the car that will allow the charge to drain. Often the frame of the car is even better than the negative contact on the battery.
When you jump a car, you deliberately create a neutral circuit by clamping a ground; this prevents the negative connection that would complete the electrical circuit and cause a spark - this is an issue of safety, not electricity. Electrical circuits needs a positive line and a return [negative] line to complete the circuit, the "ground" is a neutral line - often not even insulated because it does not carry a charge. Again, sounds to me more like a balance of forces.

The best way to decouple a body, is to provide a structure at the bottom of the body that best allows the energy to drain the most efficiently.

Flat feet: Have you ever had neighbors above you that had speakers directly on the floor - and it felt like the music - especially the low end - was just booming all over the place. What they'd basically done is to turn their entire floor - and the walls - and to some degree the entire building into a big speaker. Feet placed flatly on the ground - or floor - act in the same way as your neighbors speakers on the floor. And those vibrations and built up resonances not only go back into the speaker body (your body) but they also "couple" with the floor and walls. Making all that "one body." A big mess.

You've also heard of a "heat sink" a similar process. It drains the heat away by quickly draining the heat (energy) to a larger surface area where it can dissipate. And that's why they call a kitchen sink a "sink." Sink does not mean to "lower your body structure vertically." It means to discharge the energy in your body through your legs - to your feet and toes - and out in the the ground.

The energy in your body, in order to drain and dissipate fast enough so that you don't turn into a big overcharged battery - is by "decoupling" your body with the ground/floor. The way to do that is by forming a smaller coupled surface at the lowest part of the structure- ideally in an upside down cone shape - that allows the energy to spiral downward - out of the body - and into the ground/floor.

You have something that's shaped just like upside-down cones on your feet. The toes.

--- more coming ---

I got a automated message to post something... Here goes.

I appreciate that you are making an effort to explain internal training as it relates to aiki, or more importantly, aikido. But, I am a little confused by some of the comments you initially make, as well as some follow-up comments.

To start, I bolded under your original post some comments.

I am unfamiliar with the concept that you want to allow energy into your body, even if to dissipate it. Are you saying specifically that you are creating a body structure that is designed to receive and dissipate energy? How is this different then creating a structure that never lets in energy?

Also, my understanding of decoupling is a separation of objects. For me, to decouple from the ground is to separate yourself from the ground...

Anyway, hope my comments help.

Dan Richards
02-18-2013, 02:05 PM
Also, my understanding of decoupling is a separation of objects. For me, to decouple from the ground is to separate yourself from the ground...

Anyway, hope my comments help.

Hey, Jon, good to see you here.

Well, first to "separate" is impossible. Nothing is separate. Everything is connected.

You've got Dan Messisco coming to your place next week. He's got some interesting things to say about and demonstrate about connection.

In this video Dan talks/shows the idea of decoupling your arms. Not to have them fused to the body.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmfFTQPEI6Y

"We don't have to connect with the Earth. We're all connected on a Universal level." - Dan Messisco
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbVhoi-Y5Ts

And I swear I've heard Dan say something like, "Why would you want to connect with the Earth, when you're already connected with the Universe."

In Dan's language he talks about "attachment." That's the connection. It's a given. I'd be interested to talk with Dan. I haven't yet. But he seems to be on a lot of the same wavelengths I am. We don't need to ground.

In my language, I talk about coupling and decoupling. It's not that you separate anything, but you change with coupled relationship that's "fused together" to a decoupled relationship - where you are free to move.

If you think about it - our exhaled breath, with CO2, while waste to us, is dessert for the plants. The Earth is designed to receive your waste. That's why it's there. And so many are so invested in holding all this waste and uncirculating, stale energy inside them. Flush it. Drain it. Discharge it. Breath out - it's food for the trees. Discharge your energy - the Earth's there to receive it. Then you are like an empty cup, and can be filled with new, fresh energy.

Nature abhors a vacuum. The second you discharge your body of energy - it creates a vortex for the return of energy. Draining, discharging, flushing -- is actually the action of receiving fresh energy.

In fact, look at a toilet. The act of flushing is done by sending fresh water in.

How many people are doing aikido with moves with unflushed or partially-flushed toilets. I'd call that crappy aikido.

jonreading
02-19-2013, 08:52 AM
Hey, Jon, good to see you here.

Well, first to "separate" is impossible. Nothing is separate. Everything is connected.
Is this literal, or figurative? Later you quote Messisco sensei specifically as not connecting to the Earth.

You've got Dan Messisco coming to your place next week. He's got some interesting things to say about and demonstrate about connection.

In this video Dan talks/shows the idea of decoupling your arms. Not to have them fused to the body.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmfFTQPEI6Y

"We don't have to connect with the Earth. We're all connected on a Universal level." - Dan Messisco
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbVhoi-Y5Ts

And I swear I've heard Dan say something like, "Why would you want to connect with the Earth, when you're already connected with the Universe."

In Dan's language he talks about "attachment." That's the connection. It's a given. I'd be interested to talk with Dan. I haven't yet. But he seems to be on a lot of the same wavelengths I am. We don't need to ground.

In my language, I talk about coupling and decoupling. It's not that you separate anything, but you change with coupled relationship that's "fused together" to a decoupled relationship - where you are free to move.
So are we talking about coupling/un-coupling or fusing/un-fusing? Coupling implies a mechanical process that can re-occur. Fusion implies a more permanent state. I think this language is a little muddy. What about unity? Or, just separation?

If you think about it - our exhaled breath, with CO2, while waste to us, is dessert for the plants. The Earth is designed to receive your waste. That's why it's there. And so many are so invested in holding all this waste and uncirculating, stale energy inside them. Flush it. Drain it. Discharge it. Breath out - it's food for the trees. Discharge your energy - the Earth's there to receive it. Then you are like an empty cup, and can be filled with new, fresh energy.

Nature abhors a vacuum. The second you discharge your body of energy - it creates a vortex for the return of energy. Draining, discharging, flushing -- is actually the action of receiving fresh energy.

In fact, look at a toilet. The act of flushing is done by sending fresh water in.
Technically, there is both a draining and a filling. Again, sounds more like yin/yang. If you flushed a toilet only by filling the bowl you'd have a problem in short order.

How many people are doing aikido with moves with unflushed or partially-flushed toilets. I'd call that crappy aikido.

Dan-

I have bolded some more comments in the quoted text. Hope they help.

First, as a shameless plug, Dan Sensei will be at Aikido of Lake Keowee, Seneca, SC. He is awesome and I look forward to seeing him again. He is a seminar worth attending - it will change how you look at aikido.

Second, I am not speaking for Messisco sensei, I believe he has a couple students that hang around here, but I am not sure he is talking about what you are talking about. Of the videos you posted, I think he is talking more about what he calls "independent movement." That is moving the self and not being concerned (read connecting) with your partner. I believe I heard him use the example of a spinning punching bag - the rotating bag moves independent of someone striking the bag, yet when the punch makes contact it is affected by rotation. Of independent movement, I feel two things when I grab sensei: 1. Dan sensei is not using some kind of set ground path structure to receive my energy, my energy never enters his body; 2. my attack does not affect what he is doing, in fact, my attack actually contorts around his movement. I am connected to sensei, but he does not connect to me - I cannot feel his center, nor move his body, but he can do both to me.

I believe his direct reference to [not] connecting with the Earth was to imply that mechanical ground path is not necessary to aiki. He moves quite freely when you try to grab him and never sticks to the ground.

FWIW

Dan Richards
02-19-2013, 10:59 AM
Thanks for your comments, Jon.

I believe his direct reference to [not] connecting with the Earth was to imply that mechanical ground path is not necessary to aiki. He moves quite freely when you try to grab him and never sticks to the ground.

Yes. And I agree, too. It's not necessary to connect ourselves to something we're already connected with. What Messico seems to be doing [in my language] is a lot of decoupling. He's taking elements that have been coupled together - such as grounding, uke/nage, arms/torso - and decoupling them. He's got his "octopus" arms, as he calls them. Showing people that they are free to move. That they are the center of the universe. Jeez, he sounds like something we've heard from some old Japanese man. : )

Erick Mead
02-19-2013, 12:06 PM
HI Jon. I'd like to see your new place sometime. Say hello to Mike for me.
Of independent movement, I feel two things when I grab [Dan Messico] sensei: 1. Dan sensei is not using some kind of set ground path structure to receive my energy, my energy never enters his body; 2. my attack does not affect what he is doing, in fact, my attack actually contorts around his movement. I am connected to sensei, but he does not connect to me - I cannot feel his center, nor move his body, but he can do both to me. In regards to, the videos, Messisco addresses the "livenness" of the action -- as distinct from the stiff or fixed forms he also illustrates (and critically) - He is describing the shape and actions of chains and equivalently of arches (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9N8huToOIBc/UCzMwT2kAfI/AAAAAAAAEPk/MVlDvK7xfV4/s1600/P5141150.jpg) in the body.

They mirror each other in one sense-- and in other senses they don't. Much training starts with arches -- because they are easier to grasp the essential shape and adjust accordingly. Chains, on the other hand are less easy to see how to manipulate -- people training at first with chain weapons often hit themselves more than they hit their target-- and the same is true of this form of action using the body itself as the "chain" weapon.

The differences are as critical as the similarities -- in arch action the load path shifts instantaneously within the fixed structure without ever affecting the overtly perceived form. Thus, you would not perceive any change -- when in fact the path of load has changed radically.

A chain of spheres is unstable in form and instantaneously changes shape to adapt to loads in tension -- but there is one -- and only one -- shape in which a chain of spheres can bear a compression (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=473&d=1208097999) without instantaneously collapsing from shear though all its connections.

Where these linked pendulums are (like our bodies) made up of progressively shorter lengths from hara to fingertips (or toes) the form of this action tends to collapse in large periodic waves that undergo typical, and repeated, but complex progressions of these changes in form as they dissipate their energy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkdfJ9PkRQ). These are the forms of waza -- captured as a snapshot of the real dynamic progression of transmitting and dissipating energy.

It is no accident that the form of tegatana is one half of this arch/hanging chain shape and that normal kamae including shikodachi/kibadachi is the entire thing. It is no accident that the complex spirals of chain action change axis suddenly but almost imperceptibly from horizontal to vertical, and back again.

How to shape and transmit these undulations driven by torsional shears and oscillations through the body of the opponents are counter-intuitive principles -- but is all in the aiki-taiso (e.g. funetori, udefuri, etc.) described by Ueshiba in his Doka as "The demon snake"

Right next to this Doka reference is the other principle allowing manipulations of reflexive action of higher frequency oscillations (at or close to resonance ~5-10 Hz) and which he called the "Spirit of Bees." It is likewise well-represented in the aiki-taiso (eg. -- furitama, tekubifuri, etc.)

Our inverted pendulum vertical stability is driven by a basic vertical oscillation of normal and imperceptible structural tone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwGAzy0noU0) -- which we only see perceptibly in people who have movement disorders or age to the point that they lose their natural damping functions that hide this universal and essential tremor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1TdBk84NR0) in the body.

One can demonstrate the essential relationship of these two foundational actions with a twisted dish towel -- It starts with small twists spiralling the structure at a very small scale. And then at a critical point this shifts spontaneously into large arching loops that then fold the structure spirally at a much larger scale. The smaller scale spirals underlie and drive the larger looping spirals.

The only difference with people is that their limbs are not quite as flexible as the dishrag. They reach their structural limits with far less torsion or oscillation -- and they have reflexive feedback mechanisms that help prevent structural damage from this kind of manipulation, but which can be primed and triggered by using it. These two principles of driven and spirally opposed higher and lower frequency torsion/oscillation relationships are the foundation of aiki action and evidence of it in action.

FWIW.

Dan Richards
02-19-2013, 12:21 PM
2. my attack does not affect what he is doing, in fact, my attack actually contorts around his movement. I am connected to sensei, but he does not connect to me - I cannot feel his center, nor move his body, but he can do both to me.
Jon, thats interesting. All the opening movements we do, most of which I learned from Shoji Nishio, are what I've come to call "universal openings." They've been tested out over and over. These are body positions and angles - relative to the attack - that work regardless of the attack by uke. Same opening movement by nage, and uke can do anything - grab, hit, punch, right side, left side, haymaker with a stick, knife, jo, sword.... doesn't matter. With the irimi movement of nage, uke is offbalanced and unable to continue the attack.

And this isn't just compliant aikido uke's. We've had boxers, MMA'ers, Karataka, Kung Fu players, Silat players, and just big guys.... worked every time in every case.

Messisco's going to be in my area soon, and I'm going to try and swing it. Cheers...

Dan Richards
02-19-2013, 01:13 PM
Eric, thanks so much for that Pendulum Wave (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkdfJ9PkRQ) video. I love the top comment.

Like a bad orgy!!!... too many balls, gets weird, then gets cool, then wierd...
Ha! Sounds like aikido - and martial arts in general.

Reading along the rest of your posts - in bites - and chewing. Good stuff.