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ChrisHein
02-03-2013, 02:24 PM
For about a year or so now I've been working with the material from Budo Renshuu. Budo Renshuu was published in 1933, and is one of the earliest documents on Ueshiba (and Inoue)'s Aiki budo. These techniques give us a very early look at the foundation that was to become Aikido.

This material is not easy to get through, and finding video examples, or other written work is difficult. As far as I've found no one in recent times that has gone through this material. So I thought I would share the work in progress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHjl1t1qFpU&feature=youtu.be

This is from the Kata Dori section (techniques 49-60) There is only one techniques missing from the kata dori section, and if I would have been thinking a little more when I shot these I would have included it. Never the less, this is most of the Kata Dori section.

I've now gone through all of the techniques in the book (166 of them) at least once. Some sections I'm becoming quite familiar with. Although because of the vagueness of the book, it's sometimes hard to get exactly what is happening with the technique. This is a rough video I made, just to see how the techniques were starting to look. It was awesome to see some of the techniques jump off the page and come to life again.

Hope you enjoy. And if you have any experience with any of the techniques in the book, I would love to hear from you. Deciphering exactly how these techniques are suppose to look is a challenge!

Enjoy.

hughrbeyer
02-03-2013, 03:12 PM
Cool.

#51 is a koshinage? I had thought that the koshi throws didn't actually come from the Founder. Not so?

Did Budo Renshu not specify footwork for #50? I learned it with crossover footwork you're not showing there.

ChrisHein
02-03-2013, 03:18 PM
#51 There are several koshi nage's in budo renshuu.

You know, I think you might be right about #50. My translation says "advancing from this left foot, steps in to the enemy's rear with this right leg and extends this right elbow toward the front of the enemy's neck"

A cross over step would make sense there. And would fit the description- Thanks Hugh!

Michael Varin
02-04-2013, 01:15 AM
Hey. For the impromptu nature, those didn't turn out bad!

Technique #54, shiho nage with ushiro eri dori assist, is a powerful technique. I have good ukemi and seldom feel frightened during techniques, no matter how hard I am being thrown. In the videos, Chris wasn't throwing particularly hard, but I will say that I felt my cranium heading towards the ground in a way that I found somewhat alarming.

grondahl
02-04-2013, 02:31 AM
Cool.

#51 is a koshinage? I had thought that the koshi throws didn't actually come from the Founder. Not so?

Did Budo Renshu not specify footwork for #50? I learned it with crossover footwork you're not showing there.

There is a interview with Saito where he claims that koshinage was one of Ueshiba´s favored waza. I think that it was the more koshi guruma-like koshinage with feet together that Nishio introduced to hombu.

ewolput
02-04-2013, 02:21 PM
When I watched the videoclip I saw a strong similarity with techniques from Tomiki's Aikido Koryu no kata. It is said the koryu no kata is based upon techniques learned by Kenji Tomiki and Hideo Ohba at Ueshiba's dojo. Btw it seems KenJi Tomiki was involved in editing this book.

Just a thought,
Eddy

ChrisHein
02-04-2013, 04:43 PM
When I watched the videoclip I saw a strong similarity with techniques from Tomiki's Aikido Koryu no kata. It is said the koryu no kata is based upon techniques learned by Kenji Tomiki and Hideo Ohba at Ueshiba's dojo. Btw it seems KenJi Tomiki was involved in editing this book.

Just a thought,
Eddy

I've spent a lot of time watching video of Ueshiba, Inoue, and Shirata, but I didn't think to look at the koru no kata from Tomiki. Even though that would make perfect sense. I'll check some of that out tonight.

There are lot's of things in these techniques that are a part of modern Aikido. But there are so interesting differences. They've been fun to work with.

ewolput
02-05-2013, 03:14 AM
Hideo Ohba and Takeshi Inoue performing old style aikido
http://youtu.be/LZ0Z37Gc4UM

Eddy

Alex Megann
02-05-2013, 06:31 AM
Hideo Ohba and Takeshi Inoue performing old style aikido
http://youtu.be/LZ0Z37Gc4UM


Very interesting.

What struck me was how they alternated left-right-left-right grips. My limited experience with Shodokan-style training had a very strong bias towards right-handed attacks (both grips and strikes). Is that typical? If so, is it a recent development?

Alex

ewolput
02-05-2013, 07:55 AM
Very interesting.

What struck me was how they alternated left-right-left-right grips. My limited experience with Shodokan-style training had a very strong bias towards right-handed attacks (both grips and strikes). Is that typical? If so, is it a recent development?

Alex

There are different groups operating under the name Tomiki Aikido or Shodokan Aikido. The koryu no kata of Tomiki Aikido are formalised by Hideo Ohba and his students. Kenji Tomiki was only involved in the 3rd and 4th set. There are 6 sets or koryu no kata. Most of the Shodokan people are focusing on 3rd and 4th set, of course there are exceptions. Some people say there is "Old School" and "New School". New School is Shodokan and JAA-groups which had ties in the past with Shodokan.
Old School are people who kept Tomiki's and Ohba's teaching inclusive the 6 koryu no kata. In the old school it is normal to practice both sides. I believe this is the same in new school, although some clubs maybe only do righthanded. According the grading syllabus you have to do it both sides.
At this moment some groups in the JAA are researching classical Kodokan Judo kata, because in the past the link between judo and aikido was much closer.

Just a thought,
Eddy

Alex Megann
02-05-2013, 08:59 AM
There are different groups operating under the name Tomiki Aikido or Shodokan Aikido. The koryu no kata of Tomiki Aikido are formalised by Hideo Ohba and his students. Kenji Tomiki was only involved in the 3rd and 4th set. There are 6 sets or koryu no kata. Most of the Shodokan people are focusing on 3rd and 4th set, of course there are exceptions. Some people say there is "Old School" and "New School". New School is Shodokan and JAA-groups which had ties in the past with Shodokan.
Old School are people who kept Tomiki's and Ohba's teaching inclusive the 6 koryu no kata. In the old school it is normal to practice both sides. I believe this is the same in new school, although some clubs maybe only do righthanded. According the grading syllabus you have to do it both sides.
At this moment some groups in the JAA are researching classical Kodokan Judo kata, because in the past the link between judo and aikido was much closer.

Just a thought,
Eddy

Thanks, Eddy.

The group I used to train with (a long time ago!) were BAA, who I am fairly sure were JAA affiliates, so I would guess you would class them as "new school". They also had a strong focus on shiai rather than kata, which would probably explain the right-hand bias.

Alex

chillzATL
02-05-2013, 10:00 AM
Nice video Chris! With the exception of 51 and 60, all of those techniques (or an extremely close variation) are commonly practiced in our style. You'll see people do that type of koshi (51), but that's not the type of koshi we typically practice. I don't recall ever seeing 60 practiced as a technique, but you see people end up in that position often enough. About the only thing we do different really is adding some movement to stretch uke out a bit first, get them off their center a bit so that they're not standing right over their base. Good job though, you always do good vids.

grondahl
02-05-2013, 11:34 AM
51 is pretty close to this one: http://youtu.be/HoL1zQR88KI?t=3m53s

ChrisHein
02-05-2013, 12:21 PM
51 is pretty close to this one: http://youtu.be/HoL1zQR88KI?t=3m53s

HA! I've never seen Saito do that variation. Cool!

ChrisHein
02-05-2013, 12:26 PM
Nice video Chris! With the exception of 51 and 60, all of those techniques (or an extremely close variation) are commonly practiced in our style. You'll see people do that type of koshi (51), but that's not the type of koshi we typically practice. I don't recall ever seeing 60 practiced as a technique, but you see people end up in that position often enough. About the only thing we do different really is adding some movement to stretch uke out a bit first, get them off their center a bit so that they're not standing right over their base. Good job though, you always do good vids.

Thanks Jason. I think 60 is pretty interesting, I've not seen it done in Aikido before. There are more interesting throws coming in the other sections. It's neat to me to see, when we compare our different Aikido styles, which of these techniques were favored by different instructors and made it in their system, but other ones that seem strange and our particular style doesn't do them at all. It's fun. It's like looking at pictures of our grandparents and saying "oh, you have uncle bob's nose".. HA!

Alfonso
02-05-2013, 12:52 PM
hey Chris, have you seen the Kajo series yet?

ChrisHein
02-05-2013, 02:54 PM
hey Chris, have you seen the Kajo series yet?

Are you talking about this (http://www.aikidotakemusu.org/en/rubriques/kajo)? I haven't given it a very serious look yet. Maybe I'll check it out today. Thanks

ChrisHein
02-05-2013, 03:00 PM
Hideo Ohba and Takeshi Inoue performing old style aikido
http://youtu.be/LZ0Z37Gc4UM

Eddy

Hey Eddy,

Thanks for the link! That was a fun watch, and again I saw things from there that I didn't learn in my own Aikido training, but are in 'BR' (Budo Renshuu). Thanks!

Robert Cowham
02-05-2013, 04:32 PM
51 is pretty close to this one: http://youtu.be/HoL1zQR88KI?t=3m53s
Bjorn Saw, uke in that clip, now teaches in London:

http://aikidoalive.co.uk/London/Welcome.html

He has some nice videos on Youtube.

Robert

Alfonso
02-05-2013, 04:34 PM
Yeah, since you're working on recreating "Budo", this seems to be a nice additional layer of information.
Nice video.

Leonaiki
02-06-2013, 02:32 AM
hey Chris, have you seen the Kajo series yet?

Very interesting point Alfonso because Chris' awesome work (sincerely) fits quite well with the Kajo structure. Eg, shiho nage done on the IPPO axis but one by one, I think we could find many similarities.

Once you have that structure in mind, it seems kinda obvious but I guess one needs to read the Kajo series (http://www.aikidotakemusu.org/en/rubriques/kajo) to have it in mind.

That leads to one conclusion in my opinion: O sensei in the 30ies had already created a system which stemmed from Daito but was already quite different - unless of course, the many techniques of Daito are organized on the kajo cross, which I never heard or read anywhere.

It also explains the proximity wih Tomiki / Shodokan Aikido...

I'd love to watch more...:)

Rob Watson
02-06-2013, 10:54 AM
About a year or so ago Stan posted this which shows another variation on the #60 throw
http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2013/02/06/historical-photo-morihei-ueshibas-forgotten-ushiro-eridori-technique-rescued-from-oblivion-by-stanley-pranin/

Conrad Gus
02-06-2013, 07:47 PM
For about a year or so now I've been working with the material from Budo Renshuu. Budo Renshuu was published in 1933, and is one of the earliest documents on Ueshiba (and Inoue)'s Aiki budo. These techniques give us a very early look at the foundation that was to become Aikido.

This material is not easy to get through, and finding video examples, or other written work is difficult. As far as I've found no one in recent times that has gone through this material. So I thought I would share the work in progress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHjl1t1qFpU&feature=youtu.be

This is from the Kata Dori section (techniques 49-60) There is only one techniques missing from the kata dori section, and if I would have been thinking a little more when I shot these I would have included it. Never the less, this is most of the Kata Dori section.

I've now gone through all of the techniques in the book (166 of them) at least once. Some sections I'm becoming quite familiar with. Although because of the vagueness of the book, it's sometimes hard to get exactly what is happening with the technique. This is a rough video I made, just to see how the techniques were starting to look. It was awesome to see some of the techniques jump off the page and come to life again.

Hope you enjoy. And if you have any experience with any of the techniques in the book, I would love to hear from you. Deciphering exactly how these techniques are suppose to look is a challenge!

Enjoy.

I've been working through these as well. They are a challenge - like little puzzles sometimes. I'll have to get the book in front of me and go slowly through your video to see if your "solutions" are the same as mine. The video looks pretty good IMHO.

BTW - shaved head and black gi look pretty badass! ;-)

ChrisHein
02-07-2013, 01:12 AM
I've been working through these as well. They are a challenge - like little puzzles sometimes. I'll have to get the book in front of me and go slowly through your video to see if your "solutions" are the same as mine. The video looks pretty good IMHO.

BTW - shaved head and black gi look pretty badass! ;-)

Thanks. Yeah, I feel the same way. Making the video has been great, because with the book in front of me I can more easily see where I may be making mistakes, and miss an atemi or something. It's really hard to go through the technique with a partner, try and decipher what the book is saying, and then try and do it again. The video makes it a little easier. I've also found so many things that seem to be mistakes. Like the instructions saying to move to Uke's right, but the picture shows moving to the left. It's hard to know if there is a movement I'm misunderstanding or if it's just an editing mistake.

From what I understand these books where hand copied, so there are differences. I wrote Pranin Sensei and asked him if he knew how many copies were known to exist, and who had them. He said he didn't know.

I would also love to see all of the Noma Dojo pictures, I think those might help to shed some more light. And if you haven't yet checked out Aikido Densho you should, there is a PDF on Aikido Journal. Some of those pictures help to better show what is going on. There is not a translation of Aikido Densho that I know of, but I've had some of my students do rough translations for me, and the instructions sound much more clear as well.

NagaBaba
02-07-2013, 07:26 AM
Hi Chris,
This is a good project.
I saw N.Tamura sensei and S.Sugano sensei doing most of those techniques quite often, so we are familiar with them. If you don’t mind few general comments:
1. In the moment of the contact the attacker is not unbalanced.
2.You are literally catching attacking hand with your one hand when attacker is doing shomen uchi – it is very …how should I say in polite way….simplistic :D If you watch 1935 video of O sensei, he is always cutting attacker’s attack.
3. I don’t believe that O sensei did ANY technique without atemi – in your video it is not really visible…

Once you apply these three points, the techniques will start to have some martial dimensions.

ChrisHein
02-07-2013, 12:19 PM
2.You are literally catching attacking hand with your one hand when attacker is doing shomen uchi -- it is very …how should I say in polite way….simplistic :D If you watch 1935 video of O sensei, he is always cutting attacker's attack.
3. I don't believe that O sensei did ANY technique without atemi -- in your video it is not really visible…

Once you apply these three points, the techniques will start to have some martial dimensions.

It's funny, because I don't really remember him cutting the attacker down from the 1935 film. So I watched it again just now, and I can't say I better understand what you are talking about.

He catches most of the strikes and doesn't seem to cut them down. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by "cutting the attackers attack".

Also, on the third point, I was actually surprised after watching the film again at how few atemi he is using. In the book, I know that I missed several of the atemi after watching my video and looking at the book.It's funny in the video he doesn't do all that much atemi.

NagaBaba
02-07-2013, 01:05 PM
It's funny, because I don't really remember him cutting the attacker down from the 1935 film. So I watched it again just now, and I can't say I better understand what you are talking about.

He catches most of the strikes and doesn't seem to cut them down. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by "cutting the attackers attack".

Also, on the third point, I was actually surprised after watching the film again at how few atemi he is using. In the book, I know that I missed several of the atemi after watching my video and looking at the book.It's funny in the video he doesn't do all that much atemi.

For cutting, you will not catch live sword? Rather you cut it ? Strike with hand is only representation of weaopn use....This is how I understand it. Atemi is not only with fist or leg.. the way how you enter creats atemi...

RonRagusa
02-07-2013, 01:15 PM
It's funny, because I don't really remember him cutting the attacker down from the 1935 film. So I watched it again just now, and I can't say I better understand what you are talking about.

He catches most of the strikes and doesn't seem to cut them down. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by "cutting the attackers attack".

Also, on the third point, I was actually surprised after watching the film again at how few atemi he is using. In the book, I know that I missed several of the atemi after watching my video and looking at the book.It's funny in the video he doesn't do all that much atemi.

I just watched the whole 14+ minutes of the 1935 video (again). Regarding the cutting the attacker down comment by Szczepan, perhaps he's referring to Ueshiba's cutting motion against shomen and yokomen attacks. Otherwise, I don't see much of anything that could be called cutting the attack, especially against the grabs. Maybe Szczepan could be more explicit as to where in the video he sees this cutting motion.

Ueshiba's use of atemi is either subtle to the point of being invisible or it just isn't there. I don't count the big arm sweeps to the face as atemi since they are plainly not meant to connect as blows.

This video clearly shows that by 1935 Ueshiba had begun to evolve away from his DR background. There is a lot of blending with uke's motion, leading the attacks and throwing via "fitting" as opposed to forcing uke to move in a particular direction.

Ron

Chris Li
02-07-2013, 02:11 PM
This video clearly shows that by 1935 Ueshiba had begun to evolve away from his DR background. There is a lot of blending with uke's motion, leading the attacks and throwing via "fitting" as opposed to forcing uke to move in a particular direction.

Ron

Hmm, what make you think that those things don't exist in Daito-ryu?

And what is the "away" part?

And what makes you think there's any more "forcing" going on in Daito-ryu than there is in Aikido?

There have been a couple of threads on Aikiweb about the differences between Daito-ryu and modern Aikido, and none of them have really thrown up much in the way of significant differences in the technical realms.

What Ueshiba was doing in 1935 was close enough to what Takeda was doing that Takeda moved on seamlessly when he took over the Asahi Shimbun dojo in that same year.

Ueshiba was issuing Daito-ryu scrolls up until the late 1930's, well past the Asahi Shimbun demonstration.

This is the same period in which the book "Budo" was created, and we know from Morihiro Saito's testimony that what Ueshiba was doing in Iwama in the 1960's most closely resembled the 1938 technical manual.

We know from this study (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/downloads/aikido-daito-ryu-correlation.pdf) that there's virtually a one-to-one correlation between basic Aikido technique and the Hiden Mokuroku of Daito-ryu.

And finally, Morihei Ueshiba himself thought that Daito-ryu (in the person of Yoshiyuki Sagawa) was close enough to what he was doing that Sagawa was invited to teach at the Aikikai Hombu dojo in the mid-1950's.

Best,

Chris

RonRagusa
02-07-2013, 03:29 PM
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=P2UWNLLObdI

Compare this video to the 1935 Ueshiba video. Similar but different enough to see that Ueshiba was heading in a different direction.

Ron

Chris Li
02-07-2013, 04:23 PM
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=P2UWNLLObdI

Compare this video to the 1935 Ueshiba video. Similar but different enough to see that Ueshiba was heading in a different direction.

Ron

Sure, I know those guys - I've trained with some of them. That's one particular group showing one particular thing. That doesn't answer any of the questions I posed.

Best,

Chris

RonRagusa
02-08-2013, 07:44 AM
Hmm, what make you think that those things don't exist in Daito-ryu?

After watching a bunch of DR vids on Youtube it looks to me that those things are incidental to particular techniques whereas Ueshiba seems to have placed greater emphasis on them in his overall approach.

And what is the "away" part?

"Away" as in a departure from the rigid formalism present in DR form and presentation. "Away" as in the elimination of the coup de gras blow that punctuates the end of most DR techniques.

And what makes you think there's any more "forcing" going on in Daito-ryu than there is in Aikido?

Just the way it looks, especially against shomen and yokomen attacks. Ueshiba displays very little of the abrupt stoppage of uke's motion in his technique that is apparent in a lot of the DR stuff I've watched. Ueshiba grants his ukes far more freedom of motion.

Pity that we don't have moving pictures of Takeda to compare to.

Ron

phitruong
02-08-2013, 08:19 AM
Also, on the third point, I was actually surprised after watching the film again at how few atemi he is using. In the book, I know that I missed several of the atemi after watching my video and looking at the book.It's funny in the video he doesn't do all that much atemi.

had seminars with Mary Heiny sensei and she mentioned that if your technique didn't include at least 3 atemi, then you aren't do it right. don't know how closely the practice at Shingu to M Ueshiba. also, nage initiates the technique with atemi where uke responds to the atemi which allows nage to perform the technique. i watched the old film and it looked like M Ueshiba did initiate with atemi, just slightly ahead of uke.

Chris Li
02-08-2013, 09:37 AM
After watching a bunch of DR vids on Youtube it looks to me that those things are incidental to particular techniques whereas Ueshiba seems to have placed greater emphasis on them in his overall approach.

I think that it's very chancey to conclude that from watching a bunch of videos on the internet.


"Away" as in a departure from the rigid formalism present in DR form and presentation. "Away" as in the elimination of the coup de gras blow that punctuates the end of most DR techniques.

Some DR schools emphasize the finishing blow, some not at much. FWIW - Ueshiba taught the finishing blow after the war as well, I've seen it in a number of the post-war students. In any case, it's hardly a critical basic element of the base technical method.

Like anything else, DR schools vary in formality. My experience was that Iwama is very similar to the main line of DR in terms of "formality" in general practice.



Just the way it looks, especially against shomen and yokomen attacks. Ueshiba displays very little of the abrupt stoppage of uke's motion in his technique that is apparent in a lot of the DR stuff I've watched. Ueshiba grants his ukes far more freedom of motion.

Of course, Saito used to state repeatedly that Ueshiba changed things for the camera. That aside, I think that this would be a difficult call to make based on some YouTube clips without some actual experience of Daito-ryu.

Best,

Chris

Mary Eastland
02-08-2013, 04:10 PM
It is not like Ron just fell off the turnip truck...he is commenting on the videos after training for 37 years.

Chris Li
02-08-2013, 04:19 PM
It is not like Ron just fell off the turnip truck...he is commenting on the videos after training for 37 years.

About something that he's never done, do I have that right?

There was also a list of relevant points that I brought up (apart from the video stuff, but which could have lent more substance to the conversation), all of which were ignored in favor of - "that's what it looked like on YouTube"...

Not even bringing up the point that Saito always insisted that Morihei Ueshiba altered what he did when he was on camera.

Best,

Chris

IvLabush
07-31-2013, 03:34 PM
Dear all!
I'm Ivan Labushevskiy, Daito-ryu aikijujutsu Takumakai practitioner. Me and my training partner - Andrey Kuropyatnyk - we are students of Jyrki Rytila sensei 5 dan (student of Amatsu Yutaka Shihan Hiden 8 dan, kyoju dairi and Kawabe Takeshi Shihan, Hiden 8 dan, kyoju dairi).

We practice techniques called Shoden 118 kajo (also known as Hiden Mokuroku Daito-ryu Aikibudo soke Takeda Tokimune) as basics like mostly Takumakai groups. Also we practice Daito-ryu aikijujutsu techniques from Hisa Takuma's Soden (formal name Daito-ryu Aiki Budo Densho Zen Juikkan). These are 11th books with more than 1500 photos that Takuma Hisa sensei made while had practiced under Ueshiba sensei and Takeda sensei from 1933 to 1939 years. From 1st to 5th books called "Aikido", 6th called "Asahi-ryu jujutsu" (by name of Asahi Shimbun newspaper, but different kanji), that includes high level Ueshiba sensei's wazas. From 7th to 9th called "Daito-ryu aikijujutsu" and consists of Takeda sensei's wazas. There are also two books called Hogi Hiden (grappling secrets or police arrest techniques) and Yoshi Budo (women self defense techniques).

We noticed interest to Ueshiba sensei's prewar techniques described in training manual called "Budo Renshuu". As I know from Takao Kunigoshi interview (http://members.aikidojournal.com/public/interview-with-takako-kunigoshi/) wazas from "Budo Renshuu" are Morihei Ueshiba's Daito-ryu aikijujutsu. So we had done small demonstration of those wazas using our understanding of Soden ideas from first five books. Those are ikkajo, nikajo, sankajo, yonkajo and irimi. It's not a wazas actually but ideas that uses in a lot of different kind of wazas.

Reading description and analyzing "Budo Renshuu" we saw few interesting things. First of all is that "Budo Renshuu" mostly includes ikkajo wazas but there are some nikajo wazas also. All of them with some changes we can find in the first five books of Hisa Takuma's Soden. Moreover "Budo Renshuu" includes some simple variation of high level Ueshiba sensei's wazas and a lot of aikinage variations. So the most interesting is that some "Budo Renshuu" wazas with changes we can saw in Hiden Mokuroku Daito-ryu Aikibudo soke Takeda Tokimune's ikkajo and nikajo sets.

We took thirty of them to demonstrate: ten idori (suwari) wazas, five hazahandachi (hanmihandachi) wazas, ten tachiai (tachi) wazas and five ushirodori wazas. Here is a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WExYtTUhg24).

Kind regards, Ivan Labushevskiy.