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Helmarocka
01-25-2013, 03:20 PM
Hello, I'm a begginer at Aikido and currently ungraded, so i have a lot to learn, but recently i've had particular trouble with Forward and Backward Ukemi (i'm not sure of the correct names forgive me :L ) as whenever i lean foward on with my right arm foward when i go to roll my arm gives in and i faceplant the ground or the side of my back hits the mats, and i do the same thing with my backwards, i'm also left handed so i find performing ukemi fro this side unnatural (not to mention it hurts ;) ) i'm not sure how to go about fixing this,could someone help me please??

Krystal Locke
01-25-2013, 03:47 PM
What does sensei say? Are you trying for too much too soon?

Helmarocka
01-25-2013, 04:13 PM
He says i need to practice them more so i'm not apprehensive about it, though that is probably part of it, but a lot of the techniques we use require the Uke to correctly breakfall so it's best if i get to a point where i'm not bruising my back every time i try it.

Dave de Vos
01-25-2013, 04:22 PM
There are some nice videos on YouTube with good instructions that might help. Like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kPmpJWOZpM the first part shows how to practise low forward rolls.

Helmarocka
01-25-2013, 04:32 PM
Thanks for the link i'll check it out later when i can get to a computer with flash.

Conrad Gus
01-25-2013, 04:42 PM
Hello, I'm a begginer at Aikido and currently ungraded, so i have a lot to learn, but recently i've had particular trouble with Forward and Backward Ukemi (i'm not sure of the correct names forgive me :L ) as whenever i lean foward on with my right arm foward when i go to roll my arm gives in and i faceplant the ground or the side of my back hits the mats, and i do the same thing with my backwards, i'm also left handed so i find performing ukemi fro this side unnatural (not to mention it hurts ;) ) i'm not sure how to go about fixing this,could someone help me please??

Gabriel,

If you're putting a lot of weight on your arm, such that it is collapsing under you, you're not ready to roll from standing. Practice rolling from a kneeling position, tucking your head and arm and connecting with your arm and shoulder together. Then make sure you go over the top (legs up, not to the side). The arm shouldn't have to do a lot of work.

I'm a fan of having beginners doing this from a kneeling position before rolling from a standing position.

I can't seem to visualize how you manage to mess up a backward ukemi in the same way, as there is no point in backward ukemi where your weight could go onto your arm.

Hope that helps a bit. If not, just ignore!

Cheers,

Conrad

ChrisHein
01-25-2013, 05:21 PM
It sounds to me like you need to push off more and go down less. Lot's of times beginners think of falling straight to the ground. This can cause your forward arm to "give". Instead of thinking of falling down, push yourself out- forward. This will make your downward progression smoother, as you can distribute the weight as you fall. Remember rolling is about rolling forward or backward, not about dropping straight down. If you throw a wheel straight down, you might damage the wheel, but if you throw it forward, it will start rolling the second it comes into contact with the ground, making the transition smoother.

Belt_Up
01-25-2013, 05:35 PM
Welcome to aikido! :-D

whenever i lean foward on with my right arm foward when i go to roll my arm gives in and i faceplant the ground or the side of my back hits the mats,

You'll be glad to know this is a fairly common starting problem. I went through this, and it's not difficult to overcome. I second Chris Hein's post strongly; your ukemi is a level change, it is still mostly horizontal movement, not vertical. Your arm is there as a guide, not to rest your full weight on.

odudog
01-25-2013, 07:45 PM
You need to stiffen your arm but just a little. If the arm is too relaxed, it can't carry your body weight and you fall on your face.

ronin_10562
01-25-2013, 10:21 PM
I like Chris Hein 's explanation and to that I would add don't reach to far forward with your right hand. The placing of your hand depends on your forward momentum, the slower you are moving the hand is placed closer to your foot.
I am assuming the second fall is a back fall in which both hands are placed on the mat and you flip over your head and arch your back while slapping with your arms and feet. The only suggestion I have for that is to tuck your chin to your chest use your arms to maintain a straight direction with out supporting your weight. Use your legs to project only your hips over your head.

Good luck

ronin_10562
01-25-2013, 10:32 PM
Moderators delete this if it is offensive.

I have serious concerns about an instructor who says practice more without giving proper guidance. There is a possibility of serious injury in any break fall if not done correctly and telling a student to figure it out on your own in my opinion is gross negligence.
In one of the old Aikido Journal there was a break down on serious injuries in Aikido in Japan. Some were the result of repeatedly falling poorly. The students suffered from headaches to paralysis to death.

Teachers should never just tell students they need more practice with out giving corrections or telling them to stop completely if a student may hurt themselves.

Janet Rosen
01-25-2013, 10:39 PM
Walter, I agree with you. Practicing over and over without specific guidance, even if injury is avoided, only adds to tension and fear. And many newbies do end up with shoulder separations (AC joint at top of shoulder) from landing on it.
There is another recent thread talking about alternate paths to rolling and citing Ellis Amdur's method - worth searching for. His DVD is well worth the price.

Helmarocka
01-26-2013, 01:24 AM
Hi all,

Thanks for all your advice and help i'll try to implement them at my next session, thanks alot :)

robin_jet_alt
01-26-2013, 02:32 AM
You need to stiffen your arm but just a little. If the arm is too relaxed, it can't carry your body weight and you fall on your face.

Not this.


It sounds to me like you need to push off more and go down less. Lot's of times beginners think of falling straight to the ground. This can cause your forward arm to "give". Instead of thinking of falling down, push yourself out- forward. This will make your downward progression smoother, as you can distribute the weight as you fall. Remember rolling is about rolling forward or backward, not about dropping straight down. If you throw a wheel straight down, you might damage the wheel, but if you throw it forward, it will start rolling the second it comes into contact with the ground, making the transition smoother.


Not this either. While I agree that you need less down and more forward, pushing off does not fix inherent structural issues, and often leads to them not being rectified in the long term.

When it comes to rolls and break falls, I find the methods in the following videos to be helpful. Firstly, try the rolling method in this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Tnv4-83HmgI

This is how I teach rolling these days, and I like to do it as slowly as possible, without kicking off. Just allow your weight to come forward until you go over naturally. Daniel demonstrates this well in the video. When you move on to standing, try to get the same feeling, so that you bend your legs to get close to the mat and don't kick off. Notice that you will roll at an angle, not straight ahead. Let this happen. It is more natural.

The next video is more to do with break falls than rolls, but I really like the approach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMpBpM38TMg

Just make sure you don't try to do it all at once, and get comfortable with the early exercises before you move on. The first exercise where he rolls in a circle is very good for getting comfortable with touching the mat. Also, the exercise where he flips off someone's back is easier when you use a soft(ish) object like a big punching bag. My wife still doesn't have the courage to do a standing forward roll, but she is happy to do a flip off a punching bag. It is surprisingly easy.

Anyway, don't try to jump into it. Try to relax and get comfortable with touching the mat. Start low and slow and build up from there.

Belt_Up
01-26-2013, 05:07 AM
Moderators delete this if it is offensive.

I have serious concerns about an instructor who says practice more without giving proper guidance. There is a possibility of serious injury in any break fall if not done correctly and telling a student to figure it out on your own in my opinion is gross negligence.
In one of the old Aikido Journal there was a break down on serious injuries in Aikido in Japan. Some were the result of repeatedly falling poorly. The students suffered from headaches to paralysis to death.

Teachers should never just tell students they need more practice with out giving corrections or telling them to stop completely if a student may hurt themselves.

Assuming a little too much, I feel. He's been told he needs to practise more, which he does. Nothing there to indicate he's been told that and left to get on with it and injure himself.

The article in AJ, IIRC, talked about deaths due to excessive training as a kind of hazing, not poor ukemi.

ronin_10562
01-26-2013, 01:15 PM
In the article in Aikido Journal , yes some were due to hazing but not all. Some were due to repetitive bad ukemi.

Mario Tobias
01-27-2013, 03:27 AM
The faceplant is happening because the arm is collapsing from the elbow.

The solution to this is to apply the "unbendable arm" technique.

It's not stiff nor too relaxed either. it's just firm and relaxed but the arm shouldn't collapse from the elbow when it hits the mat.

The arm shouldn't also be too straight, just following the normal curve of the arm.

This normal curve would then act as a "wheel", the side of the pinky finger or tegatana would hit the mat first, then the side of the forearm, then the elbow, and so on until the shoulder in a wheel-like motion. You are doing correct ukemi if there is no part of the arm that hasn't touched the mat.

if you faceplant and you're elbows give way then you are not using your arm like a wheel much more like a pick.

if your back is hitting the mat, then most likely you are jumping. you need to contact the mat with your pinky or tegatana first otherwise you will be too high and start jumping.

Walter Martindale
01-27-2013, 11:05 AM
Walter, I agree with you. Practicing over and over without specific guidance, even if injury is avoided, only adds to tension and fear. And many newbies do end up with shoulder separations (AC joint at top of shoulder) from landing on it.
There is another recent thread talking about alternate paths to rolling and citing Ellis Amdur's method - worth searching for. His DVD is well worth the price.

Yes... Practice makes permanent. "perfect" practice makes "perfect", permanently..
A bit of an exaggeration but the school of hard knocks has a high failure rate.

lbb
01-27-2013, 04:44 PM
It's the Anna Karenina principle: all good forward rolls are the same, but each bad forward roll is bad in its own way :D

For those who don't get the literary allusion, please, take the time to look it up before you jump all over this. The point is that there are many things that can be wrong with a roll (and in giving advice, people tend to focus on what was wrong with their rolls as being The Key for everyone else's forward rolls), and they all have to come right for the roll to be good.

Helmarocka
01-28-2013, 03:17 AM
The faceplant is happening because the arm is collapsing from the elbow.

The solution to this is to apply the "unbendable arm" technique.

It's not stiff nor too relaxed either. it's just firm and relaxed but the arm shouldn't collapse from the elbow when it hits the mat.

The arm shouldn't also be too straight, just following the normal curve of the arm.

This normal curve would then act as a "wheel", the side of the pinky finger or tegatana would hit the mat first, then the side of the forearm, then the elbow, and so on until the shoulder in a wheel-like motion. You are doing correct ukemi if there is no part of the arm that hasn't touched the mat.

if you faceplant and you're elbows give way then you are not using your arm like a wheel much more like a pick.

if your back is hitting the mat, then most likely you are jumping. you need to contact the mat with your pinky or tegatana first otherwise you will be too high and start jumping.

Hi all, thanks for the advice, this might sound silly, but ho9w do I do the unvendable arm technique, we've talked about it in session but i'm not sure i get it :freaky:

Janet Rosen
01-28-2013, 10:08 AM
Hi all, thanks for the advice, this might sound silly, but ho9w do I do the unvendable arm technique, we've talked about it in session but i'm not sure i get it :freaky:

This is why some folks advise learning to roll by starting with the shoulder or upper back on the mat...it can be pretty hard to to do something (a roll) if it is fully based on a skill one doesn't have the ability to do (unbendable arm)

Belt_Up
01-28-2013, 12:31 PM
I second Janet's suggestion. Start on one knee, and roll from there. Progress to standing afterwards.

sakumeikan
01-28-2013, 03:41 PM
Hi all, thanks for the advice, this might sound silly, but ho9w do I do the unvendable arm technique, we've talked about it in session but i'm not sure i get it :freaky:

Gabriel,
Just form both arms into a circular shape /manner.Like holding a ball between your arms., Tuck your chin in and have some confidence in you actions.Use your imagination to activate a positive response.Dont get too caught up in the unbendable arm.As long as you do not break/dislocate your shoulderscollar bone/bang you head /or damage your tail bone I guess you will survive.Cheers, Joe.

Janet Rosen
01-28-2013, 04:12 PM
Gabriel,
Just form both arms into a circular shape /manner.Like holding a ball between your arms., Tuck your chin in and have some confidence in you actions.Use your imagination to activate a positive response.Dont get too caught up in the unbendable arm.As long as you do not break/dislocate your shoulderscollar bone/bang you head /or damage your tail bone I guess you will survive.Cheers, Joe.

Too many of us HAVE had shoulder separations and had to deal with the chronic repercussions or have seen newbies not come back after incurring shoulder separations for me to endorse this, Joe :)

robin_jet_alt
01-28-2013, 06:24 PM
Too many of us HAVE had shoulder separations and had to deal with the chronic repercussions or have seen newbies not come back after incurring shoulder separations for me to endorse this, Joe :)

I agree. Please look at the first video I posted a link to. Once you have mastered those rolls, then start thinking about the more advanced ones.

sakumeikan
01-29-2013, 12:58 AM
Too many of us HAVE had shoulder separations and had to deal with the chronic repercussions or have seen newbies not come back after incurring shoulder separations for me to endorse this, Joe :)

Dear Janet, Robin,
The point I was making to the person who was asking about unbendable was this, namely rather than get caught in a debate about acquiring said unbendable arm, just check out certain areas eg protecting the head, rolling like a ball , watching out for shoulders /collar bones etc.I agree that any injury is counter productive and can lead to complications eg surgery , latent arthritis, pain.Sorry if I misled you with my guidelines.No need for anybody to endorse any view I express on this forum.I am not running for President of the U.S.A just tossing in a few comments which you may or may not agree with.Cannot please everybody even part of the time. Hope you are well,Joe,

robin_jet_alt
01-29-2013, 05:57 AM
Dear Janet, Robin,
The point I was making to the person who was asking about unbendable was this, namely rather than get caught in a debate about acquiring said unbendable arm, just check out certain areas eg protecting the head, rolling like a ball , watching out for shoulders /collar bones etc.I agree that any injury is counter productive and can lead to complications eg surgery , latent arthritis, pain.Sorry if I misled you with my guidelines.No need for anybody to endorse any view I express on this forum.I am not running for President of the U.S.A just tossing in a few comments which you may or may not agree with.Cannot please everybody even part of the time. Hope you are well,Joe,

Couldn't agree more. There are far more important things, and safety is paramount.

miso
01-29-2013, 05:49 PM
The (excellent) links by Robin show someone who is already unafraid of falling.

If someone is having trouble at the start they should be on the crash-mats, if available. I've seen more people leave a club and never come back through bad introductions to a breakfall/ukemi. For beginners it requires specific, constant supervision and control.

A sound lack of fear with falling enables a student to practice more freely.

However these comments don't take into account that learning to roll/fall hurts, tricking gravity/fate takes some skill and it doesn't come cheap.

Worth having though.

robin_jet_alt
01-29-2013, 07:47 PM
The (excellent) links by Robin show someone who is already unafraid of falling.

If someone is having trouble at the start they should be on the crash-mats, if available. I've seen more people leave a club and never come back through bad introductions to a breakfall/ukemi. For beginners it requires specific, constant supervision and control.

A sound lack of fear with falling enables a student to practice more freely.

However these comments don't take into account that learning to roll/fall hurts, tricking gravity/fate takes some skill and it doesn't come cheap.

Worth having though.

Yes, the second link in particular shows someone who is already unafraid. I should have mentioned that I wouldn't attempt any of the later exercises until I had mastered the earlier one. Crash mat is a good idea to get over fear.

miso
01-30-2013, 05:46 PM
For rolling, I have found it's best to start total beginners very low, as has been said. Rolling from the knees progressing to rolling standing up but with the hips very low/hands on the ground and so on.

For breakfalls, the best practice seems to be a hip throw along the lines of koshi-nage with a high grade throwing as the beginners tend to thrash about a bit (or freeze). Lots of time to push them into the right shape as they drop.

There's a beauty in rolling that everyone can learn. There's always a couple of bits where it hurts.

amoeba
02-02-2013, 11:24 AM
You don't need the crashmats though - we never had them in any of the clubs I've trained in and I've seen lots of people learn to roll, including some older and/or nor very sporty/confident ones and even some with physical disabilities. As long as you start low (from your knees or from a sitting position for backward rolls) and have a (competent) teacher watch you and correct you in the beginning, you should be completely fine. I've never seen any accidents from ukemi training (and that's including breakfalls).

For the forward roll I find it quite important to place your palm or the side of your hand on the floor, not the back. If you put the back, it'll be a lot less stable - leading to wrist and/or shoulder injuries should you crash on it.

hughrbeyer
02-02-2013, 07:56 PM
Crashmats also deform in an awkward and confusing way. I wouldn't recommend them.

Helmarocka
02-13-2013, 12:27 PM
Hey,

I've been practicing rolls for a while now, and i've become a lot better at rolls from with my left hand fowards except my right hand ones are still sloppy, though i'm left handed, not to mention i do fencing so my left side is slightly more confident, also i'm struggling at backwards rolls still can someone help?

Cliff Judge
02-13-2013, 02:45 PM
You do NOT need to keep your eyes on the mat as you enter a roll. I guarantee you that it will neither steal your wallet nor run away. You need to tuck your head. Look back towards the wall opposite the one you are rolling toward.

Michael Douglas
02-13-2013, 03:20 PM
... i've had particular trouble with Forward and Backward Ukemi (i'm not sure of the correct names forgive me :L ) as whenever i lean foward on with my right arm foward when i go to roll my arm gives in and i faceplant the ground or the side of my back hits the mats, and i do the same thing with my backwards, i'm also left handed so i find performing ukemi fro this side unnatural (not to mention it hurts ;) ) i'm not sure how to go about fixing this,could someone help me please??
If you do it at a faster speed and in a muddy field you will progress faster than on mats in your dojo.
You do have muddy fields around : your location says W.Midlands.
Also : don't let your arm buckle under you, get some vigour! Be the ball.
Left handed? Stop whingeing.

lbb
02-14-2013, 09:47 AM
That's weird, I'm right-handed (very) and my left-hand rolls were easier for me. I'd like to think it's starting to even out, but certainly the right side took more work (and much more conscious thought).

KEM
02-14-2013, 11:13 PM
Great replies particularly those suggesting you start from kneeling. You are new and need clear instructions on HOW to roll. When instructing teens I remind them that our 'monkey brains' are wired to send signals of panic when the brain gets signals of 'falling.' As you roll more from a low position your brain will adjust to the sensations and it will get better. Some people handle these conflicting neurological sensations better than others. Some Astronauts never get space sick...many do and they keep flying.

Phil Van Treese
03-08-2013, 02:07 PM
Easiest way to learn ukemi is to start from a kneeling position, 1 knee down and 1 knee up, and roll to the side that has the knee up. After gaining confidence you can do it from standing.

Basia Halliop
03-08-2013, 02:56 PM
You can go even lower than that if you want... If you start with both knees down (toes up, kiza), one knee and shoulder pointed forward, tuck head down and towards back shoulder, use back hand for support as you lower your rolling shoulder all the way to the ground and place it on the mat, reach rolling arm under you, then push up with front leg to go over...

Hard to explain verbally but you can learn all the head tucking and diagonal contact across the back and rounding the body and the shape of a roll before you even get the rolling arm involved.

bklynjames
04-15-2013, 09:52 AM
One thing I notice with newer students is them throwing themselves. Ukemi needs to be free flowing. When you ready to fall try and bring your shoulder down as close as possible to the mat before rolling.

Helmarocka
05-18-2013, 04:38 AM
Thanks for all the helpful guidance, I have noticed that my Ukemi are still inconsistent as I'm still finding it tough to stop myself from collapsing on my on when rolling, as well as Backwards Ukemi, though I have found that it is sometimes easier when your moving faster before rolling,.

JP3
06-16-2013, 06:47 PM
The post above about starting certain novices with a pronounced fear of falling (and you will be able to tell them almost right away) from not only down on one knee, but all the way down on both knees, hand-arm thrust back towards the opposite foot with head turned and tucked to allow the shoulder to actually start out ON the floor is an excellent tool we've used for some time with folks with falling fear.

There is no "fall" per se in this practice drill, yet they get the concept of the ball, and rolling as a ball, and they feel the line the body takes across the ground, yet there is no impact. Even starting on a single knee, if the lead arm collapses there is the possibility of a shoulder ding, so keep an eye out for that, too.

Once the student is doing the shoulder down rolls, and they've gotten to the point where they are obviously bored with them (might take 3 minutes or 3 weeks), then bring them up to a knee start, with the hands on the ground (hands, plural), then to a more fluid feeling hand edge or palm (depending on the theory your dojo uses to teach zempo kaiten ukemi), and then a transition to standing rolls is as simple (right...) as saying, "What you are doing kneeling, just do it standing up.

Some folks will nail it the first time, others might crash and burn. C&B causes the loss of students, so try to avoid it.

Peter Wong
06-17-2013, 01:40 PM
There's a few You Tube videos that may be helpful you.
The first "Instruction on teaching Mae Ukemi" by Nakayama Sensei. It addresses the unbendable arm. And Moonsensei:The art of ukemi #1 and The art of of ukemi/fundamental/Moonsensei. Both address back rolls.
Good luck and don't give up.

Darthcrane
06-19-2013, 05:37 AM
I am beginner as well, slowly getting better. I just feel dizzy after a couple of front rolls but I guess that will get better with the time. :)

Thanks Peter for suggesting those great videos!

L.

PaulF
06-21-2013, 03:34 AM
What Janet and Geoff said, start on one knee.

Being big, heavy and stiff I found ukemi awkward to start with, Donovan Waite's video was very helpful
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OaicleoK4M

I also visualise my arm is a springy sapling

Get comfortable with forward rolls left and right before you worry about backwards rolls which I found much trickier.

Once you do get onto them the key is to remember your hands are going up to the opposite shoulder from the leg you first go down on and that is the shoulder you'll roll over. Also the feeling is not so much backwards as sideways/diagonal. Those were the two key points that helped me get it.

After a while you will find ukemi becomes one of the greatest pleasures in aikido, like a giant massage :)

Basia Halliop
06-21-2013, 01:51 PM
"Get comfortable with forward rolls left and right before you worry about backwards rolls which I found much trickier"

Personally, I actually find that a lot of people find the back ones much easier (especially if you start from sitting). It seems to vary from person to person, though.

Peter Wong
06-22-2013, 03:19 PM
You might try and get sensei, an instructor or a senior student to watch you do your rolls. Your problem(s) may just be sometimes simple like hand or foot placement. You don't want to get into bad habits.

Helmarocka
03-11-2014, 04:19 AM
Hey, I have been away from Aikido for almost a month and a half, due to outstanding commitments and studying, though having tried it out, my forward Ukemi seem to be passable, though there is a significant difference when i roll left arm forward,(which tends to have better form) than when I try it using my right arm. My back rolls are even worse due to lack of practise, the Videos you have provided are very helpful, hopefully I will do better in my first session back this week. :)

lbb
03-11-2014, 07:40 AM
Gabriel, since you're now able to return to class, you are probably going to do better with hands-on instruction from someone who can see what you're doing and correct the mechanics, rather than a bunch of strangers guessing at what the problem may be over the internet. Remember that you're rusty and practice with caution, get in-person feedback and concentrate on correcting whatever's wrong.

GB-UK
03-23-2014, 04:56 AM
This is a great thread! I'm returning to aikido after a long period of illness and the one area that I really sucked at was ukemi! This thread has given me a lot to think about in how I can gain more confidence in my ukemi! Thanks a lot.

jdm4life
11-06-2015, 08:08 PM
The ground wont come to meet you so the nearer you can get to it the better.

Crashing even a few inches down onto a shoulder isnt good.

Took me a long time to get ukemi to a point I was satisfied with but I just pushed myself and eventually it clicked. It was rather frustrating for a while and seeing complete beginners turn up and have it in a few weeks didn't help......but that didnt matter... I had my own reasons for struggling with it so I just kept to myself and worked at it. One day I got annoyed and just decided, right, Im going for it and then I started to get somewhere. Im now working on mae yoko kaiten, ushiro yoko kaiten and eventually progress to front rolls/falls with the front arm out of action.

Get low, go slow, dont jump into it or throw yourself, try to picture travelling across the mat rather than down towards it because you will crash.... you are travelling across it, not down.

I think being 6'3 has its drawbacks when learning this so it took as long as took and thats just the way it is. It takes as long as it takes but steely determination goes a long way.

Ive practiced on and off for a couple of years and remain ungraded, no big deal. I may be due to jump a couple of grades but Im pretty dam hard on myself and am rarely satisfied with my practice anyway so a different coloured belt wont make much difference with that. The biggest test for me is inbetween my ears.

Michael Douglas
11-09-2015, 11:33 AM
Crashing even a few inches down onto a shoulder isnt good.
In my experience a few inches does not make a crash, so ... just saying.

I remember back when I was sixteen practicing Aikido at a tiny club in N.Ormesby we were all middling at ukemi from sensible stuff
then a guy in a hakama (first we'd seen!) came to train, threw himself at the slightest touch and crashed into the mats with thunder in a way that made us all fear for his safety. That was wierd.
Since then I've seen that stuff on youtube and it seems more common than what we were doing.
Maybe our Sensei was a leftover from the Hut or something... in a good way = a lot more logical than the new guy.

Janet Rosen
11-09-2015, 09:46 PM
In my experience a few inches does not make a crash, so ... just saying..

Tell that to all the beginners, myself included, who sustained A-C separations from precisely that, crashing onto the top of the shoulder when learning forward rolls, because of failure to embody "unbendable arm." Too many of us lost precious weeks of early training and ended up with if nothing else a joint that aches in bad weather.

rugwithlegs
11-09-2015, 10:00 PM
Janet is right. Some body parts absorb impact better than others, and some alignments. Otherwise why even study falling? Even with a short distance, it is your body weight plus the force from nage and Uke driving at the ground. Bring that on the tip of the shoulder or on a neck or some other honey prominence and injury and pain will probably happen.

In terms of the crash mat, I did think for Koshinage practice that it was important to throw more often (not throwing is training to balance Uke, not get kuzushi.). I tried using the dojo crash mat - and I was unstable throwing someone. I lost my balance and landed on people, or people landed on me, and getting my knees out of the way was harder because I couldn't shift my weight. So, I tried throwing right beside the crash pad, but several times the Uke was landing with their hip on the crash mat, and their shoulder on the regular mat. I found it very ackward to fall on an uneven surface and stopped even trying this.

Best thing for good Ukemi - get thrown well. So, I started to focus on me as a Nage rather than me as an Uke.

rugwithlegs
11-09-2015, 10:01 PM
Janet is right. Some body parts absorb impact better than others, and some alignments. Otherwise why even study falling? Even with a short distance, it is your body weight plus the force from nage and Uke driving at the ground. Bring that on the tip of the shoulder or on a neck or some other honey prominence and injury and pain will probably happen.

In terms of the crash mat, I did think for Koshinage practice that it was important to throw more often (not throwing is training to balance Uke, not get kuzushi.). I tried using the dojo crash mat - and I was unstable throwing someone. I lost my balance and landed on people, or people landed on me, and getting my knees out of the way was harder because I couldn't shift my weight. So, I tried throwing right beside the crash pad, but several times the Uke was landing with their hip on the crash mat, and their shoulder on the regular mat. I found it very ackward to fall on an uneven surface and stopped even trying this.

Best thing for good Ukemi - get thrown well. So, I started to focus on me as a Nage rather than me as an Uke.

kewms
11-10-2015, 11:10 AM
I know it's common practice to send beginners off to work on rolls in a corner by themselves, but I think it's a bad idea. They don't know what it's supposed to feel like, and even if something hurts they won't necessarily know what to do to fix the problem.

The judo world has lots of drills to teach koshinage ukemi. One I particularly like is this:
Partner A gets on hands and knees on the floor. Partner B stands or kneels next to them, then reaches across their back and under to grab Partner A's dogi. (90 degree angle, so Partner B is lying crosswise on Partner A's back). Tuck the head under Partner A's body and roll into the breakfall position.

Grabbing the dogi helps keep the head and shoulders off the floor, but this is so close to the ground that most people won't find the fall intimidating.

Katherine

Janet Rosen
11-11-2015, 01:56 PM
I know it's common practice to send beginners off to work on rolls in a corner by themselves, but I think it's a bad idea. They don't know what it's supposed to feel like, and even if something hurts they won't necessarily know what to do to fix the problem.

The judo world has lots of drills to teach koshinage ukemi. One I particularly like is this:
Partner A gets on hands and knees on the floor. Partner B stands or kneels next to them, then reaches across their back and under to grab Partner A's dogi. (90 degree angle, so Partner B is lying crosswise on Partner A's back). Tuck the head under Partner A's body and roll into the breakfall position.

Grabbing the dogi helps keep the head and shoulders off the floor, but this is so close to the ground that most people won't find the fall intimidating.

Katherine

Yep.
I favor using this to start all rolling practice, which IIRC is Ellis Amdur's technique.
I use a version of this in my class for seniors on how to survive falls (if I didn't have the stable round cylinder, I'd need the human volunteer to be partner A) and as a very beginning version I have them not even roll but "ooze" over, exhaling and reaching with the back hand/arm.

jdm4life
11-11-2015, 02:40 PM
In my experience a few inches does not make a crash, so ... just saying.
.

Well thats one opinion and from experience Id happily disagree.

The shoulder isnt designed to be dropped onto from ANY height. Im having trouble with mine now and have not landed on it that much recently.

Its easy to forget how dangerous aikido can be... Even a slight miscalculation during ukemi could result in somebody being seriously injured. Its even more dangerous when you have clumsy training partners who treat your body as if it will bend in any way they feel like forcing it.