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01-13-2013, 12:42 PM
I certainly appreciate all of your efforts to keep things peaceful.
However, you must appreciate that many Aikido folks, many of them in your own organization, are of the opinion that this Internal Training is the core of their Aikido training - that it is Aikido - and that it was practiced and taught by Morihei Ueshiba.
You may not agree with that, and that's fine, but by creating a ghetto for all discussion on that topic you are also taking a public stance that you categorically disagree with those opinions. Is that your real intent?
Perhaps we (as in the Aikikai "we") could have a seperate "Ki in Aikido" forum so that we can seperate out all those troublesome Ki Society folks and keep the discussion focused on "real" Aikido. :freaky:
Next in line - those freaks from the Yoshinkan. :D
01-13-2013, 12:57 PM
Chris, I see this as more akin to having, as Aikiweb always has, a separate area for "weapons" - makes no difference whether the poster considers weapons training integral to her aikido or not and makes no difference if the question/topic within it is about the very different suburi/kata of Saito Sensei, Chiba Sensei, Tohei Sensei, Kato Sensei etc etc....It's just a handy division separating post threads on weapons from empty hand training, from spiritual aspects, from teaching, etc and now also from issues specific to the exercises and other issues pertinent to internal training as opposed to specifically empty hand partner training issues.
Thanks for your opinions.
I see that Janet has posted something in the last few minutes. I agree with what she wrote and think she has explained my rationale quite well, even without knowing my thoughts.
My additional thoughts on this subject may be found in my recent post:
If you wish to contend whether internal training is the core of your own aikido training, please do so in the new "Internal Training in Aikido" (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=81) forum, as that is a separate issue from the formation of that new forum.
I don't think any further discussion on the formation of that new forum will be very constructive, so this thread is now closed.
In the Aikido Schools of Ueshiba, when Bill Gleason was asked whether IP/aiki training (aka Internal Training) was part of aikido, he answered, It is aikido.
In the Aikido Schools of Ueshiba, Hiroshi Ikeda is actively training IP/aiki aka Internal Training.
Two of the most senior people in that organization understand that this "Internal Training" *is* aikido. There are other senior people in that organization who believe the exact same thing. Senior to many here. That's just using one organization as an example. There are others to include someone who earned a yudansha grade under Ueshiba. When asked about this Internal Training and the cries of naysayers, their answer was ... Did they train with Ueshiba?
Internal Training isn't another tool, like a weapon that you can discuss as a separate training environment. Internal Training is the very foundation of Ueshiba's aikido. To discuss Morihei Ueshiba's (the founder of Aikido) aikido, Internal Training is a requirement.
That doesn't mean all threads pertain to Internal Training. That leaves jujutsu (you have to apply it somehow), how Ueshiba viewed using jujutsu, aikijujutsu, how others viewed it, how Ueshiba's students viewed it, how the spiritual applies, how Omoto kyo applies, how weapons are integrated, how Kisshomaru's changes affected things, etc, etc, etc. A whole host of subjects outside Internal Training.
In a world where everyone's opinion matters, where everyone's opinion is valid, where a spirit to cultivate "a community where all aikido practitioners, regardless of training level, location, background, affiliation, or interests feel welcome in coming together to share their thoughts, experiences, and opinions"; the "Internal Training" people are being shoved aside into a "ghetto".
I find it kind of humorous actually. It's like being told that you can say whatever you want, as long as it's in line with what the main group wants to hear. If not, then you have to go to the corner and whisper so that no one hears. It's disruptive to the people who are shouting that everyone's opinion matters and everyone's views are valid. To the group of people who are happy with the decision for a new forum, shame on you. Are your beliefs so tenuous that you cannot weather criticisms such that you must silence some opposition to them? Do you believe that people like Martin Luther King, Ghandi, Parks all had to have a peaceful environment without other groups trying to contradict them?
In the end, however much a public forum this is -- It is still Jun's site. I will uphold the Right for Jun to set terms for his site no matter how much I disagree. Just don't look to me to be an active participant in this kind of environment. I hope that Aikiweb doesn't go the way of E-Budo when E-Budo did something very similar.
Best of Luck,
01-14-2013, 08:27 AM
Do you believe that people like Martin Luther King, Ghandi, Parks all had to have a peaceful environment without other groups trying to contradict them?
Do you believe you can compare yourselves with MLK, Ghandi et al? Do you feel you are treated as colonial subjects or afroamericans without civil rights?
01-14-2013, 08:51 AM
i don't see a problem with what Jun did by creating a separate section for internal training, which in many way legitimate its standing in aikido categories versus under non-aikido section which the title of that alone speaked volume. personally, i don't see it as a problem at all, but that's just me.
01-14-2013, 09:12 AM
I can honestly say I agree with Phi (that has a ring to it).
Mark, I just returned from a lovely weekend training with Dan. Got lots of hand's on time since Dan and I have been shooting the s**t for years on various topics even before these discussions were getting heated. I agree with most things he says, I agree with the training, hell, I hurt in places today that I really have a hard time understanding (but are good signs in my somewhat novice opinion). I plan to go back soon to see if I made more progress.
All that said, really, it's a big world out there in Aikido. I really don't disagree with many things, but... But... But... Aikido has morphed, changed, evolved, moved, whatever in so many directions and in so many places. It is what it is. And many are quite happy with that evolution even if what it has become in some places in something focused on things that maybe you or I wouldn't really find nearly as interesting. I have said it before and I'll say it again -- Aikido's greatest strength and Aikido's greatest weakness is its wide spread popularity. And when I say it I may mean something completely different from when someone else says it. And it is okay. Really, it is okay.
It is easy to cross the line from being an advocate to a fanatic. The first allows for conversation, allows for acceptance, allows for "harmony". The latter, however, tends to polarize and regardless of the "correctness" of each persons' view tends to leave little room for productive conversation (which is what this site is ostensibly all about).
Aikido is a big tent today. Yeah, I agree with the idea that what most of those early deshi were chasing was the magical, powerful stuff he was doing and I do think much of what you guys are doing is touching that stuff. But... There are a lot of other things that became part of Aikido. Lots. And in many places the emphasis (for better or worse) shifted away from some of those core things. And many also believe that those interesting things are nothing more than "athleticism" loosely defined combined with timing, movement, etc. Okay, fine with me. Not my goal, but... They have productive, fulfilling, and useful, meaningful practice. Leave it be.
There comes a point when being dogmatic and rigid only makes your view appear exactly that -- dogmatic and rigid. This is Jun's site and frankly I think it is a great place. I donate some cash every year out of immense gratitude. And I think Jun is walking a tightrope that few of us could even hope to walk.
Me, I'm okay with it all. I think history is on your side. And I think there is a ball rolling that will keep on rolling changing how many practice. But that said, I think all the various factions will continue to roll. And will stay healthy and improve in their own way. Hell, we're just a tiny sliver of the population here. And not representative. Not authoritative. Just a bunch of guys shooting the breeze on the internet.
So to quote one of my favorite movies... "I guess that's the way the whole durned human comedy keeps perpetuatin' itself." and "Let's go bowling..."
01-14-2013, 09:38 AM
Since this topic has started up again I'll post part of the reply that I sent direct to Jun (and Janet, who was the only post to the original thread before it was closed). The original thread appears here:
Here are some more of my thoughts on the matter:
I don't disagree with a seperate forum (ala weapons training), in principle.
One objection to the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" was that threads posted there don't show up in the "Active Forums" section on the front page, effectively blackholing them from the general population. I'm happy to see that this is not the case for the Internal Training forum.
I do object to number 1:
If you wish to discuss the subject of internal training, your posts must reside in the above Internal Training forum. This means that if you wish to add your thoughts from an internal training standpoint to an already existing thread, you need to start a new thread in the Internal Training forum. Otherwise, if I see posts outside of the Internal Training forum with overt references to internal training, I will either move them or simply delete them.
in that people mentioning (for example) weapons in the context of another Aikido discussion are not required to open a new thread in the weapons section, nor are their threads moved there if they happen to touch on weapons training in Aikido.
The implication is clearly, IMO, that you are saying that Internal Training is something seperate from the rest, and ought to be treated differently by the rest.
Further, even in Iwama weapons were part of the integrated training methodology of O-Sensei, but while they expressed the principles of Aikido, weapons training was not itself considered the core principle of Aikido. With Internal Training we are talking about something that, in the mind of many, is itself the core principle of Aikido, which can make it difficult to discuss many things in any real depth without reference to it.
Like I said - tell Ki Society folks that they can't talk about Ki anymore in the general discussion and I think you'll get a similar reaction.
Anyway, that's my say. :)
To the group of people who are happy with the decision for a new forum, shame on you. Are your beliefs so tenuous that you cannot weather criticisms such that you must silence some opposition to them? Do you believe that people like Martin Luther King, Ghandi, Parks all had to have a peaceful environment without other groups trying to contradict them?
Those who attempted to silence Martin Luther King Jr., Gandhi, Rosa Parks, and others whose names are vaguely conflated with them, were attempting to deny them access to various public spaces and forums to which they, as citizens (or as human beings who had every reasonable expectation of being accorded a citizen's rights), had every legitimate right. Furthermore, the silencers did so by means of non-symbolic imprisonment and violent repression. I'm sure you see a stark difference between that situation and one in which not every forum (including privately owned ones such as AikiWeb) is open to every subject. If I wanted to come into your living room this very evening and hold forth at high volume on the virtues of nutritional yeast, and you put a stop to this unwanted intrusion and turfed me out of there, I think you'd probably see it as insult added to injury if I then accused you of having tenuous beliefs, being unable to weather criticism and seeking to silence my free expression.
01-14-2013, 09:51 AM
In general, I have no problem with a separate section to focus on Internal Training in detail - however, I agree with Chris on the #1 rule where IP/IS cannot even be mentioned in other threads outside the internal forum - to those working on IP/IS, that training is core to all aspects of their Aikido - I view #1 as plain censorship, which is never a good thing regardless of how well one might justify it.
At this moment, I have no plans of changing my mind and stand by what I wrote in my initial thread regarding the formation of the new "Internal Training in Aikido" forum:
Again, if you wish to contend whether internal training is the core of your own aikido training, please do so in the new "Internal Training in Aikido" (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=81) forum, as that is a separate issue from the formation of that new forum.
Again, I don't think any further discussion on the formation of the new forum will be very constructive, so this thread is now closed.
I have just deleted a thread continuing this discussion.
This decision is not up for discussion here. As I have said, I have no plans of changing my mind.
If you wish to discuss this any further, please do so elsewhere and not on AikiWeb. I will be deleting any further discussion on this and may issue moderation actions if needs be.
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