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Carl Simard
07-17-2002, 11:11 AM
At the class, last evening, I have trained with a guy that was constantly trying to block me. He wasnít a total beginner, 5th kyu or soÖ Since I wasnít doing the technique at normal speed, with almost no force, trying to check different technical details, I explain to him that it was quite easy to block and that it wasnít, as he suggested, because my technique wasnít good. I tell him that at more normal speed and strength, he will not be able to block. It was like talking to a wall and he continued to block, telling that my technique wasnít good enough. At some point, I simply lose patience and done the technique at normal speed and efficient strength, even if I knew that it will be quite painful for him if he tried to block. He tried to block, and yes, it was painful. But then, he simply began complaining that I have done the technique with too much force and it was very painful!!! I answered him that if he wants to block someone, at some point he must be ready to assume the consequencesÖ Donít know if he get the message since it was time to change partnerÖ

Have you ever been in that kind of situation and was I right to apply the technique in the way I did, knowing that it will be painful ? I talked my sensei about that, but he didnít tell much. Only that other techniques or tricks could have been applied as well. Iím not sure if I should take that as an approval or notÖ

What do you think ?

chadsieger
07-17-2002, 12:22 PM
At my dojo, speed has nothing to do with the success of a technique. In fact, attempting the technique as slowly as possible is a great way to learn the proper mechanics/feel. If you can do it slowly effectivly, then you can do it fast when necessary.

The uke's role is to maintain the static as best as they can, however once they feel the move working, they are to relax and continue the connection to the end of the move.

If you are performing the technique with that particular uke check a couple of things.

1. Sometimes uke's efforts to maintain nice tension get overzealous and they prepare tension that "follows" the move (i.e. they know where it is going so they anticipate).

If this is the case, you should feel that separate technique would be called for (i.e. they may be blocking shiho, but kotagaishi is eaiser than usual.) In this case the uke is not practicing correctly.

2.Your's uke was right and you are just muscleing through your moves. In this case, try absorbing the attack a little bit more. This will bring uke off balance and make your technique as easy as pie. It is kind of like cheating, but drawing the attack off his/her comfortability zone is one of the most powerful devices in Aikido.

Good Luck

Sieger

rachmass
07-17-2002, 12:23 PM
It is frustrating to be in this situation! As annoying as it can be, I always have to ask myself what I am doing wrong, or how can I move my body so as not to get stuck like that. It is usually something like having an angle not quite right, or being off-center (for me).

Sometimes uke doesn't know how to move properly either, or doesn't understand that by stopping the technique (at 5th kyu) that he/she is not opening themself up to learning which is done both through being nage as well as uke.

I don't have any really good suggestions on how to respond, but my first reaction would be to not train with that person for a couple of days until I had cooled down and assessed the situation (was it something I was doing? etc.) and then try to practice again with an open mind. Easier said than done sometimes. Maybe you could just talk with him and ask him what was going on?

Hope this helps even a smidge....

Erik
07-17-2002, 01:10 PM
Have you ever been in that kind of situation and was I right to apply the technique in the way I did, knowing that it will be painful ? I talked my sensei about that, but he didnít tell much. Only that other techniques or tricks could have been applied as well. Iím not sure if I should take that as an approval or notÖ

What do you think?
I work with a lot of beginners these days. For some reason they'd taken to doing shomen strikes by raising the arm to the outside of their body and bringing it back down on center line. So the finish is right on center line where it's supposed to be but it mucks with the angle of the strike creating something more like a yokomen strike because it's coming at a slight angle. It was very subtle and I was catching myself having to shift the dynamic of my response.

I was taught that shomen uchi ikkyo is done by catching the strike at the beginning on the way up. With the arm to the side I had no chance to do this. Telling them to strike differently didn't work either. So, I simply started entering just like I normally would and when the arm wasn't there I bopped them on the nose just hard enough to get their attention. It worked and besides that's a good classic response to a yokomen strike. ;)

Sure there are other options and other ways to do the technique but I liked that one.

:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:

Young-In Park
07-17-2002, 01:41 PM
Have you ever been in that kind of situation and was I right to apply the technique in the way I did, knowing that it will be painful ? I talked my sensei about that, but he didnít tell much. Only that other techniques or tricks could have been applied as well. Iím not sure if I should take that as an approval or notÖ

What do you think ?
If an uke tries to block or resist your technique, do another technique instead of forcing the technique demonstrated by the teacher. Stanley Milgram would be proud of the majority of aikidoka who blindly follow their teacher...

But then again, you'd have to deal with another complaint. Ukes always complain, saying, "That wasn't the right technique."

For reasons beyond my comprehension, some people have forgotten that aikido is a martial art.

YoungIn Park

shihonage
07-17-2002, 02:31 PM
If an uke tries to block or resist your technique, do another technique instead of forcing the technique demonstrated by the teacher. Stanley Milgram would be proud of the majority of aikidoka who blindly follow their teacher...

But then again, you'd have to deal with another complaint. Ukes always complain, saying, "That wasn't the right technique."
Sometimes the uke knows more than you and is trying to make a point, i.e. you're not doing it correctly and they're showing you your weak point.

Other times they stop you for the sake of stopping you.

The hard part is being able to tell the difference...

Carl Simard
07-17-2002, 03:13 PM
1. Sometimes uke's efforts to maintain nice tension get overzealous and they prepare tension that "follows" the move (i.e. they know where it is going so they anticipate).

If this is the case, you should feel that separate technique would be called for (i.e. they may be blocking shiho, but kotagaishi is eaiser than usual.) In this case the uke is not practicing correctly.
Itís exactly what was happening. Since I was doing the technique slowly, he had plenty of time to make moves or regain his balance, things that he would not have time to do if the technique was done at normal speed, without pauses to check if feet position are right, am I centered, etcÖ If I do a small pause without applying too much pressure on the lock to let him take the fall without risk, he was instead taking that chance to reposition itself to resist or escape the lockÖ This is why I have done the technique at normal speed the last time, to show him that he would not have time to do the block. And if he donít want to take the fall properly, trying to resist the lock instead, well, itís his choiceÖ It wasn't forcing the technique, just doing it normally, without letting the other any time to regain balance or try something...
But then again, you'd have to deal with another complaint. Ukes always complain, saying, "That wasn't the right technique."
That's exactly the kind of answer that made me lose patience. When I tried to show him that he put himself in a situation where I can give him a very nasty atemi on the nose: "Yes, but that's not in the technique. If you do it right, you don't need the atemi."

jk
07-17-2002, 08:12 PM
Carl, unless uke was injured or maimed, uke has very little reason to complain. Where is it said that aikido has to be a comfortable, relaxing practice at all times? Hell, even ballet is not without a bit of pain.

At least that's the way I see it...

Regards,

jaemin
07-17-2002, 09:23 PM
We can notice the intend of uke easily, can't you? :)

Some ukes are trying to help us learning proper techniques. However, some other ukes are just trying to tell, "Oh, boy I'm better than you." In that case, I simply ignore such rude guys.

Of course, many newbies are very annoying, but it's just because that he/she is a newbie. Then I simply said, 'Take it easy'

Jaemin

ps. YoungIn Park seemed a Korean aikidoka like me. :)

PeterR
07-17-2002, 09:34 PM
For reasons beyond my comprehension, some people have forgotten that aikido is a martial art.
There is a time and place for randori and a another time and place for kata.

Still you have a point - if uke is being really bloody minded put him down. However, if all he is doing is giving you something to work for - switching to another technique is the easy way out.

aikidoc
07-17-2002, 09:41 PM
Perhaps this is an issue which you should take up with your instructor. It's easy for someone to stop a technique when they know exactly how you are going to move-especially when 1st learning the move. However, mutual practice is not about stopping the other person and correcting them unless you are the instructor. Too many teachers on the mat leads to injury. Ukemi means to receive the technique. If your uke is stopping everything he/she is not feeling the energy of the technique and is not learning how to properly receive the technique. Generally speaking, if someone stops you and your are moving properly with hip power your can continue to execute the technique. Atemi is also effective. Another alternative is to as suggested, do something else. The best thing to do though is take up the issue with your instructor.

SeiserL
07-18-2002, 10:34 AM
Yes, finding a compatible partner in any aspect of the journey is very important.

Until again,

Lynn

Jason Tonks
07-18-2002, 11:13 AM
The reality is there is always someone who will try and block your technique or be deliberately awkward. I always like to gauge the intent here. As has been stated above it is easy enough to block a technique if you know what is coming. We can all be awkward and stand there smiling as nage struggles. When someone is learning a technique they need to have someone who will let them put the technique on, otherwise they will become frustrated and angry. Once they have got the basic movement and application then Uke can be a little more awkward so Nage is always building up the strength of his technique. To do so straight away is pointless. Uke and nage should be building each others power and spirit up. The intent should be of this each others development. If I resist or am awkward up to the point of the technique being applied, it is because I want to help Nage strengthen his technique not just be an awkward smartass. I have met these types and and make no bones about putting the technique or another one straight on them. You'll always find there the first ones to start crying "that's not what its about." I know some people will disagree but I'm Old School and sometimes the fact is it's a challenge and you've no choice. It's best if it can be avoided, but some people respect no other way.

Edward
07-18-2002, 11:33 AM
Well, last month I was doing my 3rd Kyu examination. I was paired with a policeman. Usually we try to look at our best during grading exams and we do not resist techniques. We started with Hanmi Handachi Shiho Nage and I had to start first. I could not move him, and was obviously taken by surprise because I was not expecting any resistance. After 2-3 failed attempts, I felt very embarrassed in front of 70 students and twice as many spectators. So I did the technique with all my power and it must have been quite painful for him. He resisted the next one even more, and I used even more power. It continued this way untill the last technique (Suwari Kokyu Ho)when he lost his nerves and started a Judo wrestling match with me. The result: we both failed the exam for bad manners.

cguzik
07-18-2002, 12:13 PM
An article by George Ledyard Sensei that addresses this issue was posted here not too long ago.

http://www.aikiweb.com/training/ledyard1.html

A couple things that come to mind for me:

- Every teacher I have ever worked with has said, if the technique you are supposed to be practicing doesn't go, do something else -- don't stop.

- Any technique is stoppable if uke knows what nage is going to do. So, you may occassionally have to do something different to keep uke on his/her toes.

- Sometimes, an atemi can help point out to uke that in trying to stop your technique, they are creating an opening they might not want to create.

Best,

Chris

opherdonchin
07-18-2002, 12:40 PM
I remember that I used to get REALLY annoyed by ukes who were not 'behaving properly.' I also remember that there have been nages who have gotten REALLY annoyed at me. Nowadays, it can still happen that I get pretty annoyed, but things have changed a little bit. I think I've gotten a lot of mileage out of the idea that the uke is always doing ukemi to the best of his/her knowledge and ability. Ultimately, if it is not what I want, I have three options. The first (the option of humility) is to explain that I'm having trouble and ask for particular kind of ukemi. The second (the option of generosity) is to try to teach the other student in hopes of showing them a path to greater knowledge or ability. The third (the option of aiki?) is to simply work with whatever I've gotten to the best of my ability.

The third option is 'best' in some ways because it always 'works.' I simply do the best nage I know how and uke does the best uke they know how and, by definition almost, we are doing aikido. My technique may not work at all, but ultimately there is nothing wrong with that. It will always be an opportunity to notice what I still have to learn.

This is not to say that I do not opt for options 1 and 2 sometimes. There is much to say for and against them, but there is no reason to cross them off the list.

paw
07-18-2002, 01:00 PM
There is a time and place for randori and a another time and place for kata.

Peter is correct.

Personally, I wish more instructors would make this clear during class. Perhaps if more instructors indicated when it was time for randori and leave kata as the default training method that would lessen the number of times we all have to deal with a "bad uke".

Regards,

Paul

Ron Tisdale
07-18-2002, 02:59 PM
"The result: we both failed the exam for bad manners."

Good (not for you this time of course). But at least this way, no one will pull that kind of crap during an exam again. everyone will be quite aware of what the result will be.

Ron (nothing like a clear example) Tisdale

Young-In Park
07-18-2002, 03:11 PM
There is a time and place for randori and a another time and place for kata.

Still you have a point - if uke is being really bloody minded put him down. However, if all he is doing is giving you something to work for - switching to another technique is the easy way out.
"something to work for"? the term "work" implies too much effort. being a lazy korean american (the worst of both worlds in the eyes of japanese people), i prefer "the easy way out." maybe my tiny little brain has tightly wrapped itself around the concept of the path of least resistance.

working smarter, not harder?

youngin park

Abasan
07-18-2002, 11:16 PM
"The result: we both failed the exam for bad manners."

At least it proves you have a sensei that takes his gradings seriously. Btw, where were you? Sugano Sensei has come and left. :)

Edward
07-19-2002, 03:36 AM
Btw, where were you? Sugano Sensei has come and left. :)
Sorry but I couldn't go because my Sensei asked me to accompany him to Taiwan Aikido Association 35th anniversary, which almost coincided with Sugano Sensei's seminar. We had Keiko with Moriteru Doshu and then an Embu where I was Uke for my Sensei who slammed me so hard on the mats that I don't remember much of the demonstration :)

I hope I'll make it next time!

Genex
07-19-2002, 07:13 AM
this ones simple our sensei says if you dont block it or move out of the way (get off the line) your gonna get hit,anybody want that? no? then move!

simple

Bruce Baker
07-23-2002, 09:36 AM
As we return to the subject of resistant uke's and when is enough, enough ... yeah, I have hurt uke's who are not merely resisting for the sake of training but for prooving your technique does not work. I try to be more gentle in releasing my technique so nothing more than a sore muscle is felt these days.

Let me bring up the art of taking balance, creating distraction.

One of our traveling friends, Butch Chernofski, a traveling companion of Y. Yamada Sensei of NYC, consented to teach class while visiting LBI on holiday. He is not a big man, about 5 feet 8 inchs about 150 pounds but at times when proving a point his weight feels more like my 250 plus pounds.

Now, it isn't that the fact that he is heavy, but redirecting my energy to make it less effective. It is an old and sometimes difficult thing to learn, but part of taking the balance/ distractions learned with practice.

Amazingly enough, relaxing the body and arms while sending the power out your fingers beyond the balance of your uke is the key. What is really cool, but most difficult to get a grasp upon, is that it absolutely feels like nothing at all.

Once balance is taken, pain is inflicted, the body follows. If your uke is twisting and wriggling out of your practice technique, I guess it is time to inflict as little pain as possible to reawaken them to the fact that this practice of Aikido is indeed a Martial Art ... not just a squaredance.

Of course, if you don't have that expertise let someone with more experience awaken that person, but then it would also mean you need to work upon your own technique for practice also.

The biggest problem I have is usually people who have been in Aikido for a couple of years, who have made a decision that they are more skilled than their new partner, me. That is fine if they are, better practice for me, but usually it leads to them being hurt because I am being gentle as not to torque them out because they are wriggling, or trying to change the technique. OH, WELL!

Anyway. I want to advise you to use extension and push through the technique without using strength to the point you have taken the strength of your uke or redirected it.

It may seem like a rehash of an old simple foundation, but then that is also the magic of finding new things in Aikido.

As for resistent uke's ... try your best not to cause injury. Bring you instructor over to correct whatever is giving you trouble, I am sure the instructor will cause enough pain to reallign the offending student, or at least correct your practice to make resistant uke's more compliant.

SeiserL
07-23-2002, 09:44 AM
Let me bring up the art of taking balance, creating distraction.
Haft go with Bruce on this one. A great way to overcome resistance is distraction and unbalancing. It is hard to put the mind in two places. Help them shift their priorities to not getting hit (atemi as a feint)or not falling down. Also, you maybe feeling the resistance because you are moving into them instead of taking the hand on the circumference. Just thoughts.

Until again,

Lynn

Chocolateuke
07-23-2002, 01:11 PM
Well, last month I was doing my 3rd Kyu examination. I was paired with a policeman. Usually we try to look at our best during grading exams and we do not resist techniques. We started with Hanmi Handachi Shiho Nage and I had to start first. I could not move him, and was obviously taken by surprise because I was not expecting any resistance. After 2-3 failed attempts, I felt very embarrassed in front of 70 students and twice as many spectators. So I did the technique with all my power and it must have been quite painful for him. He resisted the next one even more, and I used even more power. It continued this way untill the last technique (Suwari Kokyu Ho)when he lost his nerves and started a Judo wrestling match with me. The result: we both failed the exam for bad manners.
Wow, I dont know how I would have handled that! I know how dreadful my nerves get during exam time and I know how much of a relif it is for me to pass :) so Bummer man! and that cop needs to learn some manners not you! well train harder and you'll pass your next examination!

BTW I think the Sensei could have passed you for trying and not the cop for bad manners.

Ahh as for the original topic, peters right! and Uke must allow Nage to learn but nage must also allow uke to learn!

opherdonchin
08-19-2002, 04:44 PM
Once balance is taken, pain is inflicted, the body follows. If your uke is twisting and wriggling out of your practice technique, I guess it is time to inflict as little pain as possible to reawaken them to the fact that this practice of Aikido is indeed a Martial Art ... not just a squaredance.
I feel a little bad about saying this, but I feel like these ideas are somewhere between dangerous and evil. It is Bruce's perception that some conflict exists, that his uke 'needs' some teaching, that creates his excuse to hurt someone else. I would even say that there is egotism in the idea that the other person will not be able to learn without your 'helping' them through pain.

There is nothing wrong with setting oneself up as a teacher in our own minds. (Well, there is not nothing wrong with it, but it happens a lot and is certainly understandable and easy to identify with.) However, when that illusion excuses hurting other people, we are, as they say, 'no longer doing AiKiDo.' My feeling (and I encounter this a lot and work through a lot of frustration in trying to find answers) is that it is part of my own training to seek other solutions that will communicate the idea.

Of course, sometimes (too often?) I get frustrated and want to make a point and I do end up causing, as Bruce said, 'as little pain as possible' to make a point. I just don't think that is something to glorify or even to justify. It's an excusable mistake, just like when I throw someone wrong because I didn't know how to do the technique and was trying too hard.

Bruce Baker
08-28-2002, 07:00 PM
About the failed test, bad uke, and wrestling match?

I would hope that you have trained with enough of the people in the dojo,or where ever you are testing to have them cheer you on in your training, not point you down the dead end road of "your Aikido doesn't work, now go fix it."

I haven't seen this in testing, although it sometimes appears in class with wise acres and visitors ... until they hurt themselves that is.

Be patient. It is just another lesson in training. Use it to be better, not negative to yourself or others.

Bud
09-16-2002, 12:51 PM
Sometimes the uke knows more than you and is trying to make a point, i.e. you're not doing it correctly and they're showing you your weak point.

Other times they stop you for the sake of stopping you.

The hard part is being able to tell the difference...
Yup, I agree. Part of being a good uke is having the ability to show nage his shortcomings by resisting in a constructive manner. The key is really differentiating between the two.

you have roughly 2 kinds of "bad" ukes, the newbie and the idiot. The newbie is more understandable. He or she lacks the experience to realize that his resistance is dangerous to him or herself. Usually a few words with the sensei as well as a few months of "energetic" practice cleans up a lot of their misunderstandings.

The worst of the bunch is the idiot. They're usually a 2nd or 3rd kyu yudansha wannabee, is out to prove something and seriously need attitude adjustment. My response to this is to

A) change technique

B) and / or apply atemi to distract

c) or apply the intended waza at full force

any complaints from such idiots should be disregarded. They're often experienced enough to know that they're screwing w/ you just for the heck of it and IMHO deserve the trashing they usually get. More resistance from them just makes it worse for them as well.

As for deviating from Aikido's "love and peace" ideals, I'd like to think that resistance like this would have been dealt with in a much harsher manner in OSensei's time.

In any case, the sensei should be informed of this behavior and be allowed to handle it on his own terms.

L. Camejo
09-16-2002, 02:35 PM
Never saw kuzushi (balance breaking) as a distraction. To me it is a necessity... bad kuzushi=even worse technique. Good kuzushi and the technique is just icing on an already well baked cake. To me, atemi is kuzushi using a strike :)

I take ukes who try to block as a challenge. If the tech does not work, I am probably missing something in my tai sabaki, kuzushi, kake or I'm not relaxed enough.

Viewing it this way it does not matter what uke's motives for blocking you are, if your principles are correct the techniques will work. Of course switching to something else works well too, but it is only something I do when I can't figure out what I missed on the first technique.

Funny how well kuzushi works. It can really make the difference between a real technique and mere motions with the body.

I agree with Peter as well. There is a time for randori and resistance, and a time for kata and minimal or zero resistance, where the intricacies of techniques can be understood and appreciated. The difference must be made explicitly clear.

Oh and about wrestling matches - anything that is forced is not Aikido - (was that Shirata or O-Sensei???) Very sorry to hear that you were failed for that cop's lack of cooperation Edward, but if you guys got into a wrestling match you left your Aikido tactic and went into something else. You would be failed in my dojo for that as well. Whenever we have to "force" or "fight" to apply technique I think we have left the realm of Aikido tactic and gone into another system. We have let the attacker take our centre before physical engagement has even begun.

Hope this helps.

L.C.:ai::ki:

davoravo
09-16-2002, 02:42 PM
while I this guy sounds like a prat I would like to point out that ypu said
If I do a small pause without applying too much pressure on the lock to let him take the fall without risk, he was instead taking that chance to reposition itself to resist or escape the lock
Even a really willing uke will find it hard not to end up back on balance if you have breaks in your technique. Slow training is great but it has to be flowing or this is what happens.

Bruce Baker
10-02-2002, 09:01 AM
Response to post #26.

Maybe it is evil to give out pain as a lesson, but within the learning curve of our social society, sometimes that is the only way to get through to people who have made up their minds about the person who stands before them. You can only be nice for so long before the opinions of bigotry, including categorizing someone, become ingrained from constant confirmation due to experience.

Experience proves that nothing is for certain, except that nothing is for certain ... although there are higher percentages for incidents to occur.

Training has to have some pain to validate the causing of movement, neutralizing of opponents capability to retaliate, and having the ability to know when enough is enough.

The very concept of learning to practice a martial art is that there will be a need for physical conflict, and a means to resolve this conflict if words and actions are not enough.

Training will or will not awaken you to the possibilities, such as the minds of those who become terrorists, theives, muggers, killers.

It doesn't mean that it will make you an evil or bad person, but awareness is one of the great training tools for anyones life.

I'll tell you what Opher, see if you can meet me halfway at Okimura' sensei's seminar/ AFOD(That's about halfway to Baltimore), whenever that is, and you can judge for yourself on the value of pain ... I will let you give me pain to see the difference it makes in moving a gorilla, deal?

opherdonchin
10-02-2002, 10:58 AM
Hey Bruce,

I've been hoping for a long time that that post of mine would provoke a reponse. I even wondered whether it was an example of exactly what it was supposed to be arguing against.
but within the learning curve of our social society, sometimes that is the only way to get through to people who have made up their minds about the person who stands before them.
I certainly agree that it's possible for pain to be the only way of getting a message across. I especially agree if we make it clear that you mean that it's sometimes the only way to get the message across within the limits of my current abilities. That part seems pretty important to me. I've honestly seen that the more proficient I become, the more options I learn for getting my lessons across in other ways.

Still, even if we accept that this may be, in some instances, the only way you can get a particular message across, still there are issues. For instance, it's certainly worth asking how important it is to get that message across. In any situation of conflicting wills, one makes the choice to see it as an opportunity to learn or an opportunity to teach. Just like I would say that a measure of my AiKiDo is my ability to teach without pain, I would also say that another measure is my ability to perceive situations as opportunities to learn rather than opportunities to teach. On this particular measure, my AiKiDo often falls short. I'm often tempted to show the other person what I know in situations and, on later reflection, I realize that what I was really doing was hiding my own ignorance from myself.
Training has to have some pain to validate the causing of movement, neutralizing of opponents capability to retaliate, and having the ability to know when enough is enough.

The very concept of learning to practice a martial art is that there will be a need for physical conflict, and a means to resolve this conflict if words and actions are not enough.
Here I think we just have a basic disagreement that words will certainly not resolve and I suspect even a good long session on the mat would not necessarily convince either of us. Still, just to pinpoint the difference, I am going to try rewording what you've said into something that I DO agree with:
Many people are unaware of themselves to the point that pain seems to be the only way they can validate moving or understand that they have lost the ability to retaliate. Even if they are being moved or neutralized without pain, they still may not realize it and will have difficulty learning.

The concept of learning AiKiDo is that situations of conflict are seen as an inevitable outgrowth of our failure to harmonize earlier. Because we are all of limited ability, situations of conflict are a fact of our day to day lives. AiKiDo is about learning that however uncomfortable a situation has been created as a result of this disharmony, the most effective and safest answer is one which seeks to restore harmony.
In general, I think there is nothing wrong or evil with feeling that pain has been an important tool in your own process of learning. It may likely have been one. I also think there is no real evil in having caused pain in order to make a particular technique work.

The place where I started to feel strongly enough to throw strong words around is when causing pain to others is justified as an appropriate teaching tool. It may be a common teaching tool, and it may be an effective teaching tool. Still, as a teacher, I think my tendency to cause pain is primarily an indicator of the limits of my abilities rather than an expression of those abilities.
I'll tell you what Opher, see if you can meet me halfway at Okimura' sensei's seminar/ AFOD
I'd love to meet you. Can you point me towards the seminar.

No promises that I'll be able to move you, though, or even that I'll try to hurt you if I can't. On the other hand, no promises I won't, either.:)

Bruce Baker
10-02-2002, 05:20 PM
I am sure, Opher, that if you cannot move the gorrilla, the very fabric of proper technique will cause me to follow.

When I can't say anymore because the sensei is trying to do it his or her way, I simply relax and force the nage to actually do the classic technique that always works, verses some of the gentle practice that we let beginners get away with.

Maybe you need to be an uke for more demonstrations, and get a few private lessons from shihan to agree with me, but in time, you too will come around to my way of thinking.

By the way, I see they changed the AFOD format at the web site. If you hear about a seminar before I do, send it to me or LBI Aikikai.

Thanks for the verbal skirmish. It was fun.

Eila Saarni
10-13-2002, 08:43 PM
I've had people resist me during technique, so if they are messing aroung by not letting you move their arm , try to take them off balance, or a pressure point ,below the elbow , well pressing down on that works too, their arm will sort of not be mobiel 'cuz it hurts, so then you do technique,after you take pressure off of course...hmm kind of like working with yong horses..., oh and if you end up really getting into a "sparring" bout wrist control is what should happen, no breaking though.........actually, folowing the technique would be good too ,yeah, you should do the technique....I hope i'm making sense..or not being terribly confusing... ;);)

MattRice
10-23-2002, 11:36 AM
Hey folks

just to comment on the pain thang:

last night we were doing hanmi-handachi katatedori shihonage. I was apparently not moving fast enough as uke and Sensei just applied a little more pressure, grinned, and pain shot up my wrist from the nerve bundle.

So there was some pain,applied on purpose, to teach and move...with a grin no less!