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ChrisHein
01-03-2013, 04:06 PM
There is much speculation flying around as to what the word "Aiki" may mean. The ideas that seem to pop up the most are:

A) Aiki, is a term that is describing a way to understand, lead, manipulate or physically blend with the mind and intentions of an attacker.

B) A body ability that gives it's practitioner great physical power, making them seem unmovable and strangely forceful.

I found an interesting passage in Shiro Omiya's book "the hidden roots of Aikido-Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu, secret techniques of an ancient martial art".


Aiki, the art of negating an opponent's strength, can be demonstrated in many different ways, with varying degrees of accuracy. However, total understanding of all it's subtle dimensions is rare, since aiki has complex spiritual, physiological and physical dimensions.
The spiritual dimension of aiki involves a number of factors: power of suggestion, psychology, and susceptibility, For example, it may be possible to execute a technique in a certain dojo because it's practitioners are accustomed to that kind of training and are susceptible to the seeming effects of that technique- a kind of mass hypnosis. At another dojo the same technique may be completely ineffective. It is undeniable that some people are more suggestible than others, and a charismatic instructor good at reading that sensitivity can perform feats that appear amazing, such as downing an attacker without touching the person, or remaining immobile even with several people shoving him. The relationship between the power of suggestion and true mental power in aiki is very complex, and it is not easy to differentiate between the two.

From this, it would sound like a Daito ryu expert feels as if "Aiki" has a lot to do with the ability to lead someones mind.

ewolput
01-03-2013, 04:23 PM
Chris Hein wrote :
From this, it would sound like a Daito ryu expert feels as if "Aiki" has a lot to do with the ability to lead someones mind.

Kenji Tomiki in Judo and Aikido
The meaning of "aikido" . The old saying goes, "It is the spirit that carries the mind and controls the body." The people of ancient times believed that man's mind and body and consequently his strenght were under the control of the spirit. Aiki means making your spirit "fit in" with your opponent's. In other words it means bringing your movements into accord with your opponent's. After all it means the same thing as the "principle of gentleness," for it is an explanation of the principle from within.

Quite an interesting remark of someone who believed in the future of martial arts as a sport. :D

Eddy

Cady Goldfield
01-03-2013, 05:09 PM
There are a number of Daito-ryu schools and people who practice it. Not all of them have and represent Sokaku Takeda's aiki. In the absence of that very genuine, physical skill, understanding of what aiki is and is not will be inaccurate, or at best incomplete. Furthermore, experience time and again has revealed that even those who do have and practice aiki, will provide straightforward facts about it publicly and in books.

sorokod
01-03-2013, 06:50 PM
There are a number of Daito-ryu schools and people who practice it. Not all of them have and represent Sokaku Takeda's aiki.

Can you name those that do?

hughrbeyer
01-03-2013, 06:52 PM
In the spirit of looking for a way to discuss these things that recognizes the different perspectives...

I think it's clear that, whatever "aiki" may have meant to Takeda and Ueshiba, the term was not used cleanly. You've got here two quotes about "aiki" which certainly seem to go against the IP/IS definition of aiki.

What does it mean for your spirit to "fit in" with your opponent's, to Tomiki? Do you adapt to their intent to hit you? Clearly not. So "fitting in" is somehow reconcilable with taking control. I started out in Tomiki Aikido and I never thought there was any doubt who ended up fitting in with whom.

What about the "principle of gentleness"? If I can counter your power neither by avoiding it nor fighting directly with it, is that "gentle"?

What if I can bring my opponent's movements in accord with mine? Is that "gentle"?

What's the relationship between getting out of the way or fitting in with my opponent, and kuzushi? How do I create kuzushi if all I do is get out of the way?

If I use force against my opponent's technique to move them in the direction they're already going, is that "fitting in"? Or is force force whether applied against my opponent's movement or with it?

Cady Goldfield
01-03-2013, 07:01 PM
EDIT:
Furthermore, experience time and again has revealed that even those Daito-ryu people who do have and practice aiki, will not provide straightforward or complete facts about it publicly and in books.

sorokod
01-03-2013, 07:07 PM
EDIT:
Furthermore, experience time and again has revealed that even those Daito-ryu people who do have and practice aiki, will not provide straightforward or complete facts about it publicly and in books.

Oh ok. Then can you mention just some of the Daito- ryu schools that don't have it? Also earlier you said that you know of some koryu that have aiki. Can you at least name them?

Lorel Latorilla
01-03-2013, 10:48 PM
Aiki is evading, aiki is a physical skill that can unbalance the person without over movement, aiki is the ability to lead someone's mind, aiki is a soft ass yellow bird..a rare species, aiki is harmony.

Now choose your definition and train according to your chosen decision. There. Done. Live your life happily.

Chris Li
01-03-2013, 11:30 PM
Shiro Omiya claimed to be a student of Tsuruyama Kozui, who was controversial in his own right, but held a legitimate 8th dan from Takuma Hisa.

I trained with Tsuruyama's dojo in Japan for a number of years - he had already passed away, but most of the senior folks had trained with him for many years.

After seeing the Omiya book I asked the head instructor about Omiya and Omiya's relationship to Tsuruyama. His exact words were "Well, I guess that if you train with someone even once you could call them your teacher".

I know the translator of the Omiya book - he translated it only on the condition that his name not be attached to it. His exact words were "That guy was just making it up".

You have to be careful whose material you're examining. :D

Best,

Chris

ChrisHein
01-03-2013, 11:43 PM
Shiro Omiya claimed to be a student of Tsuruyama Kozui, who was controversial in his own right, but held a legitimate 8th dan from Takuma Hisa.

I trained with Tsuruyama's dojo in Japan for a number of years - he had already passed away, but most of the senior folks had trained with him for many years.

After seeing the Omiya book I asked the head instructor about Omiya and Omiya's relationship to Tsuruyama. His exact words were "Well, I guess that if you train with someone even once you could call them your teacher".

I know the translator of the Omiya book - he translated it only on the condition that his name not be attached to it. His exact words were "That guy was just making it up".

You have to be careful whose material you're examining. :D

Best,

Chris

Man, what I'm going to say is going to sound like an attack, and personal, but it's not. If we're going to look at lineage, and teachers, this becomes valid, because we can't have it both ways. If you're going to claim one guy must be wrong because of his credentials, then you'll have to look at everyones credentials.

You reference Dan all the time Chris Li. Dan's credentials are at least as spotty as Omiya's. I know of one high ranking Daito ryu teacher that Dan studied under. If you ask that teacher directly about Dan, he won't give you a reply, he changes the subject. So if you're going to uphold Dan, and say we shouldn't look at his teachers and lineage as a reference, then you can't turn around and attack someone else's credentials, especially if you don't have the whole story.

I'm okay with looking at lineage, if that's what we want to do, I'm okay with not looking at lineage and just looking at some one's work, but we can't play both sides.

Michael Varin
01-04-2013, 12:17 AM
What does it mean for your spirit to "fit in" with your opponent's, to Tomiki? Do you adapt to their intent to hit you? Clearly not. So "fitting in" is somehow reconcilable with taking control. I started out in Tomiki Aikido and I never thought there was any doubt who ended up fitting in with whom.

What do you mean in the section that I bolded? How did you come to that conclusion? What specifically were you noticing?

What's the relationship between getting out of the way or fitting in with my opponent, and kuzushi? How do I create kuzushi if all I do is get out of the way?

I feel it is time we begin to address "getting out of the way" or more accurately what exactly is occurring when that happens.

You can get out of the way of a train (In reality, that's about all you can do! Which, I think, is very educational on the relative nature of "force" and "power," but this is for another thread.), but you cannot "join spirits" with the train. What you would be doing is purely based on "timing." You can anticipate the train's arrival in an exact location and simply get out of the way.

This is far from what occurs in human interaction.

If you are in an environment, let's say a sword fight, where you cannot afford to make a single "mistake," where anticipation is too much of a risk, and waiting to see your opponent's physical movement will put you too far behind, what that occurs within human beings could you possibly look at? What would you call that "thing"?

You've got here two quotes about "aiki" which certainly seem to go against the IP/IS definition of aiki.

Here are two more. One I just found, and one of my favorites.

From the Aiki News 1986 Friendship Demonstration (video for sale at aikidojournal.com):

"What is aiki? Each person has a different theory on this, but in aiki you harmonize your ki with the ki of the opponent. How?... an opponent has ki ready to attack you and you get ahead of him. This is aiki. You harmonize your ki exactly with your opponent's attacking ki. Then you proceed one more step to a rational place to defeat him. In this way the technique is applied in a flash. You perceive his attacking ki quickly and immediately deal with it in an appropriate manner. This is the way of aiki... of aikido."

and from Réminiscences of Minoru Mochizuki:

"You fool! What do you mean by such a question? We use kicking techniques or anything else. I even used artillery. Martial arts, guns and artillery are all aikido. What do you think aikido is? Do you think it involves only the twisting of hands? It is a means of war... an act of war! aikido is a fight with real swords. We use the word 'aiki' because through it we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately. Look at Sumo. After the command is given ("Miatte! Miatte!), they stand up and go at each other in a flash. That's the same as aiki. When a person suddenly faces his enemy in an mental state free from all ideas and thoughts and is instantly able to deal with him, we call that aiki. In the old days it was called 'aiki no jutsu'. Therefore, artillery or anything else becomes aiki." "Is that so... I think I understand." "If you still don't understand, come to me again."

Michael Varin
01-04-2013, 12:18 AM
There are a number of Daito-ryu schools and people who practice it. Not all of them have and represent Sokaku Takeda's aiki. In the absence of that very genuine, physical skill, understanding of what aiki is and is not will be inaccurate, or at best incomplete. Furthermore, experience time and again has revealed that even those Daito-ryu people who do have and practice aiki, will not provide straightforward or complete facts about it publicly and in books.

While possibly true, it is this type of post that will drag this thread down into the dregs. Too many assumptions and opinion stated as fact.

Chris Li
01-04-2013, 12:40 AM
Man, what I'm going to say is going to sound like an attack, and personal, but it's not. If we're going to look at lineage, and teachers, this becomes valid, because we can't have it both ways. If you're going to claim one guy must be wrong because of his credentials, then you'll have to look at everyones credentials.

You reference Dan all the time Chris Li. Dan's credentials are at least as spotty as Omiya's. I know of one high ranking Daito ryu teacher that Dan studied under. If you ask that teacher directly about Dan, he won't give you a reply, he changes the subject. So if you're going to uphold Dan, and say we shouldn't look at his teachers and lineage as a reference, then you can't turn around and attack someone else's credentials, especially if you don't have the whole story.

I'm okay with looking at lineage, if that's what we want to do, I'm okay with not looking at lineage and just looking at some one's work, but we can't play both sides.

Well, you can think what you like, I was just relating some information. Omiya may be a perfectly nice fellow, once you meet him, but I have my doubts. Since you have even less information than I do about him I'd think that you might find it useful, especially since you're the one that originally brought up "credentials" by citing him as a "Daito ryu expert".

The situation with Dan is completely different - he's here, and accessible, if you haven't been careless enough to slam the door at some point, and he's perfectly open about his lineage if you talk to him in person. Other people have crossed over his lineage and corroborate it. I've seen the same things he's saying and doing come independently from other Daito-ryu and Aikido sources. There's just too much there for it to be "spotty".

Best,

Chris

Gary David
01-04-2013, 01:05 AM
Folks
What I find so interesting in all of these threads about aiki, what it is, what it was, what it might be, what it might have been, what it could be, what it isn't.......all of this now happening 70 years after Takeda Sokaku passing. Each of Takeda's major students like his son Takeda Tokimune, Takuma Hisa, Tonedate Masao, Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Horikawa Kodo, Yoshida Kotaro, and others, along with Uyeshiba Morihei ...all founded or where the progenitors of separate schools. These individuals all had the same teacher, and differing views along with their own approaches to what was to be taught. Looking at what their students look like today none of these folks had the same definitions for the basic principles, including aiki.....

Considering Aikido my first teacher Harry Ishisaka said the following in a letter back in 1976 talking only about Aikido and O Sensei's direct students......

"The original teaching of O Sensei, Morihei Uyeshiba, were interpreted and applied by his various students….who emphasized in their own schools aspects of (O Sensei's) teachings which they felt to be most meaningful and worthwhile," said Mr. Ishisaka in an April 1976 letter to BLACK BELT (magazine). "Of course, it was inevitable that each disciple would interpret the teachings in his own way," he continued, "and I do not regret each may following his own lights. The Master himself insisted Aikido be dynamic and that its practitioners be willing to apply their insights and experiences to its improvement."

So how many students of O Sensei started their own schools and took their own paths? How many of the direct students who stayed with the Aikikai teach their own version of what they learned?

Considering all of this how many permutations are there?

So my question to all of you is why are we arguing over lineage and who started something and what is the absolute actual whatever? Why are we not taking a clear look at what is being offered?

The tried and true method for confirmation is personal contact.......maybe we should try to get together informally and see what works..........it is really clear that talking about here finalizes nothing...other opens the door.

Gary

sorokod
01-04-2013, 02:04 AM
So my question to all of you is why are we arguing over lineage and who started something and what is the absolute actual whatever? Why are we not taking a clear look at what is being offered?


Part of the argument; "This is what the Founder was doing", is historical by its nature, so questions of lineage are relevant.

Gary David
01-04-2013, 02:18 AM
Part of the argument; "This is what the Founder was doing", is historical by its nature, so questions of lineage are relevant.

David
Results are relevant.
Gary

ewolput
01-04-2013, 04:05 AM
There is much speculation flying around as to what the word "Aiki" may mean. The ideas that seem to pop up the most are:

A) Aiki, is a term that is describing a way to understand, lead, manipulate or physically blend with the mind and intentions of an attacker.

B) A body ability that gives it's practitioner great physical power, making them seem unmovable and strangely forceful.

From this, it would sound like a Daito ryu expert feels as if "Aiki" has a lot to do with the ability to lead someones mind.

Here is another remark about "aiki" from an interview with Sugawara Sensei ( http://web.archive.org/web/200212240...kidoTaiji1.htm) :

"Sugawara said the Founder tried to explain about harmonizing ki; and that was the goal of the Founder’s Aikido. "To feel partner’s feeling and spirit, then to change and flow . . . to catch partner’s spirit, this is the aiki situation," he said. Modern martial arts are too stiff, Sugawara feels, and, unfortunately, Aikido is not an exception."

Eddy

Demetrio Cereijo
01-04-2013, 05:07 AM
@ Michael Varin

I see you quoting Mochizuki Minoru. There is another (I've used google translator for the free version is in French*)

After my trip to Europe, other students of Ueshiba Sensei began to visit a foreign country and took Aikido global importance. Frankly, I returned thirty years ago, I had some problems with Ueshiba. By finding I told him: "I went overseas to publicize your work and I have competitions with different people when I was there. I realized it was very difficult to win using only techniques of Aikido. In some cases, I went instinctively to movements of Judo or Kendo and it allowed me to get out of difficult situations. I'm back problem in every sense, I am forced to conclude that the techniques of Daito-ryu jujutsu not sufficient in all situations. The wrestlers are not disturbed by falls and roll after being projected. They returned immediately to the load and use techniques melee. When the French boxing, it goes well beyond the simple techniques of foot and hand Karate. I am sure that the future will spread Aikido throughout the world, but if that is the case, it will expand its range technology to be able to successfully respond to any attack.

After listening to this diatribe O-Sensei told me: "You do not speak as winning or losing. "I went on quickly:" But we must be strong and win. Aikido is now known throughout the world it must be theoretically and technically capable of facing any challenge. "To which he retorted:" All your thinking is flawed. Of course it should not be low, but this is only one aspect of the problem. Do not you understand that we are no longer in an era where we can only mention of victory or defeat? We entered a century of love, you can not understand it? "You should have seen his eyes when he spoke to me!

It seems post-war Ueshiba was not so interested in powerful combative Aikido, and the pre-war teachings didn't deliver when faced western combat sports practitioners.

*http://www.yoseikan-aix.fr/index.php/le-yoseikan/historique

sorokod
01-04-2013, 05:40 AM
The aikido journal version here: http://members.aikidojournal.com/pri...u-mochizuki-2/

sorokod
01-04-2013, 05:47 AM
David
Results are relevant.
Gary

What results do you have in mind Gary?

sorokod
01-04-2013, 06:24 AM
Shiro Omiya claimed to be a student of Tsuruyama Kozui, who was controversial in his own right, but held a legitimate 8th dan from Takuma Hisa.

I trained with Tsuruyama's dojo in Japan for a number of years - he had already passed away, but most of the senior folks had trained with him for many years.

After seeing the Omiya book I asked the head instructor about Omiya and Omiya's relationship to Tsuruyama. His exact words were "Well, I guess that if you train with someone even once you could call them your teacher".

I know the translator of the Omiya book - he translated it only on the condition that his name not be attached to it. His exact words were "That guy was just making it up".


Here is another quote from Omiya's book (http://www.openisbn.com/preview/9784770023278/) :


Yukiyoshi Sagawa (1902-1998) was one of Sokaku's earliest students.


You seem to concur with the remark that "That guy was just making it up". Is the information in the above quote "made up"? If not, what process do you (or the anonymous translator) employ to decide what is "made up" and what is not?

You say that Tsuruyama Kozui "was controversial", can you say more in what relevant to this discussion sense was he controversial?


You have to be careful whose material you're examining. :D


:D

phitruong
01-04-2013, 07:27 AM
Aiki is evading, aiki is a physical skill that can unbalance the person without over movement, aiki is the ability to lead someone's mind, aiki is a soft ass yellow bird..a rare species, aiki is harmony.

Now choose your definition and train according to your chosen decision. There. Done. Live your life happily.

how do you train in "soft ass yellow bird"? will it involve feathers? will it tickle? :)

Gary David
01-04-2013, 08:38 AM
What results do you have in mind Gary?

David
Effectiveness in as wide a range as possible, and at my age ways to compensate for the youth I don't have any longer. IP/IS provides one of those avenues for both.

It is obvious that we are not on the same page in the results we expect, the willingness to seek out these results, and approach to be taken when sources are found. Usually if I can find one positive in book, in a training opportunity, in a conversation.......it was worth while. I can't seem to find that with you, so I think we are done.

Good luck with your actual training.............and please don't ask me what positives I am looking for......
Gary

sorokod
01-04-2013, 08:49 AM
David
Effectiveness in as wide a range as possible, and at my age ways to compensate for the youth I don't have any longer. IP/IS provides one of those avenues for both.

It is obvious that we are not on the same page in the results we expect, the willingness to seek out these results, and approach to be taken when sources are found. Usually if I can find one positive in book, in a training opportunity, in a conversation.......it was worth while. I can't seem to find that with you, so I think we are done.

Good luck with your actual training.............and please don't ask me what positives I am looking for......
Gary

We are definitely not on the same page. My main interest in this discussion lies with the claims of historical accuracy (this is what the founder called "Aiki"). Yours obviously doesn't.

By the way, here is an example of an Akidoka that found a way to intergrate non Aikido influencs into his art. It may have even included aiki.


Tamura sensei was both a passionate practitioner and a researcher. I suspect that he was always looking for a way to make things better. Not everything he came up with was worthwhile. He made some changes that he abandoned later, going back to the previous method. Sometimes, he changed to something new yet again. His greatest influence in recent years was, undoubtedly, his discovery of Kuroda Tetsuzan sensei, of the Shinbukan Dojo. It had an incredible impact on his work.


http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=321271

Chris Li
01-04-2013, 09:13 AM
Here is another quote from Omiya's book (http://www.openisbn.com/preview/9784770023278/) :

You seem to concur with the remark that "That guy was just making it up". Is the information in the above quote "made up"? If not, what process do you (or the anonymous translator) employ to decide what is "made up" and what is not?

You say that Tsuruyama Kozui "was controversial", can you say more in what relevant to this discussion sense was he controversial?

:D

I'm not sure of what your point is - does one true statement mean that other statements must also be true?

Anyway, I've no idea whether or not he was making it up or not - all that I said was to be careful.

Tsuruyama had some disputes with other Takumakai members, and some other folks in the Daito-ryu world, none of which is really relevant here.

Best,

Chris

sorokod
01-04-2013, 09:21 AM
I'm not sure of what your point is - does one true statement mean that other statements must also be true?

Anyway, I've no idea whether or not he was making it up or not - all that I said was to be careful.




Tsuruyama had some disputes with other Takumakai members, and some other folks in the Daito-ryu world, none of which is really relevant here.


If irrelevant why did you bring this up?

I'm not sure of what your point is - does one true statement mean that other statements must also be true?

I am sure that if you take a look you will find more statements in that book that are true. It may include the original statement on the nature of aiki. My point is that you must be as careful not to dismiss information as you are careful to accept information - even if that information doesn't suit your theory.

Chris Li
01-04-2013, 10:28 AM
If irrelevant why did you bring this up?

It was just a casual remark, what's your point?

I am sure that if you take a look you will find more statements in that book that are true. It may include the original statement on the nature of aiki. My point is that you must be as careful not to dismiss information as you are careful to accept information - even if that information doesn't suit your theory.

I've read it before. Again, what's your point? Are you saying that Omiya's definition of Aiki is the correct one? What do you base that on? Have you met Omiya? Have you met anybody who's actually met him?

There was a characterization of Omiya as a Daito-ryu "expert". All that I said was, that ought to be taken with a grain of salt. Not all books (http://www.amazon.com/Aikido-Bokata-Bruce-Tegner/dp/0874070392) are entirely accurate.

I haven't talked about his information or his theories, not at all.

Best,

Chris

sorokod
01-04-2013, 10:48 AM
I haven't talked about his information or his theories, not at all.


Very true, you only quoted anonymous sources, and I assumed they reflected your opinion. The only direct comment was "Omiya may be a perfectly nice fellow, once you meet him, but I have my doubts".

Chris Li
01-04-2013, 10:54 AM
Very true, you only quoted anonymous sources, and I assumed they reflected your opinion. The only direct comment was "Omiya may be a perfectly nice fellow, once you meet him, but I have my doubts".

Well, I have my doubts because of conversations with people who actually knew and met him. Also, I trained with the Tsuruyama folks, so I can see what he's doing in the photos with relation to what they were doing. That's all.

Best,

Chris

sorokod
01-04-2013, 11:04 AM
Well, I have my doubts because of conversations with people who actually knew and met him. Also, I trained with the Tsuruyama folks, so I can see what he's doing in the photos with relation to what they were doing. That's all.


For whatever its worth, I think that this is a valid comment to the OP. The one you posted before reads to me like FUD.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-04-2013, 11:30 AM
There is much speculation flying around as to what the word "Aiki" may mean. The ideas that seem to pop up the most are:

A) Aiki, is a term that is describing a way to understand, lead, manipulate or physically blend with the mind and intentions of an attacker.

B) A body ability that gives it's practitioner great physical power, making them seem unmovable and strangely forceful.

You can add:

The meaning of aiki in Aikido: Focusing on comments made by Morihei Ueshiba and his pupils
Ryuta Kudo, Fumiaki Shishida
Taiikugaku kenkyu (Japan Journal of Physical Education, Health and Sport Sciences)
Vol. 55 (2010) No. 2
Released: December 28, 2010
[Advance Publication] Released: June 30, 2010 453-469

Abstract:

The main purpose of this study was to verify the process of formation and development of the concept of aiki used by Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, and his disciples. The main points can be summarized as follows:
1. The term aiki has been used to refer to particular martial arts techniques and to a spiritual state that can be experienced by practicing Aikido. Morihei taught aiki as a technique, as shown in the memorandum of the Japanese Imperial Navy Admiral Isamu Takeshita around 1930. Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Morihei Ueshiba's son, also introduced these techniques in his book, "Techniques of Aikido" (1962), etc. However, neither Morehei Ueshiba nor his son explained about aiki in detail. Kenji Tomiki and Gozo Shioda used aiki as a term of technique, but they do not seem to have taught techniques under the name of aiki.
2. Onisaburo Deguchi, the head of Omoto-kyo, used the expressions "the union between a kami and a mortal" in 1921 and "the great love of the kami" in 1935, which Morihei later emphasized in relation to aiki. Omoto-kyo heavily influenced the building of Morihei's thoughts on aiki and Aikido. Aiki was likened to the great love of the Universe, Heaven and Earth, or the kami who nurtures all nature and mortals. In short, a) aiki is the union between the kami as love, and mortals, hence the practice of aiki is the purification of mind and body; b) the practice of Aikido creates a paradise for mortals on earth; c) because the kami does not oppose anyone, a practitioner does not oppose in Aikido. Morihei's thought influenced the policy of the succeeding organization of Aikido through Kisshomaru.
3. Morihei's four main pupils inherited his thoughts through several arrangements. Shioda explained aiki as "a technique for following the laws of nature". Tohei insisted that aiki is "the union between the ki in heaven and earth and a mortal". Sunadomari interpreted aiki as a combative technique and a divine work. Tomiki understood the term in two ways: one is a technique that falls into the category of kuzushi (balance-breaking), and the other is the unity of ki (energy) between nature and man. As to the way that Aikido should develop in the future, we need to study further Morihei's thoughts and their development under his pupils.

Link: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jjpehss/55/2/55_09024/_pdf (in Japanese)

Surely someone will provide a translation.

RonRagusa
01-04-2013, 11:39 AM
There is much speculation flying around as to what the word "Aiki" may mean. The ideas that seem to pop up the most are:

A) Aiki, is a term that is describing a way to understand, lead, manipulate or physically blend with the mind and intentions of an attacker.

B) A body ability that gives it's practitioner great physical power, making them seem unmovable and strangely forceful.

Two sides of the same coin. Aiki is, ultimately, about unification. Time for Aikido folks to end this war and realize that development of both aspects of Aiki are needed for the practitioner to become adept at the art of Aikido.

Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground. Likewise, technique executed by simply mimicking the movements of the instructor without the application of power that comes from a unified mind and body will result in an honest uke moving through nage like fire through a field of dry wheat.

Both sides in this debate bring added value to the table. Time has come to abandon the dogma that characterizes entrenched positions and approach Aiki in a holistic manner that recognizes its multifaceted nature.

Ron

Cliff Judge
01-04-2013, 11:46 AM
Man, what I'm going to say is going to sound like an attack, and personal, but it's not. If we're going to look at lineage, and teachers, this becomes valid, because we can't have it both ways. If you're going to claim one guy must be wrong because of his credentials, then you'll have to look at everyones credentials.

You reference Dan all the time Chris Li. Dan's credentials are at least as spotty as Omiya's. I know of one high ranking Daito ryu teacher that Dan studied under. If you ask that teacher directly about Dan, he won't give you a reply, he changes the subject. So if you're going to uphold Dan, and say we shouldn't look at his teachers and lineage as a reference, then you can't turn around and attack someone else's credentials, especially if you don't have the whole story.

I'm okay with looking at lineage, if that's what we want to do, I'm okay with not looking at lineage and just looking at some one's work, but we can't play both sides.

Seriously.

Chris Li
01-04-2013, 12:17 PM
Two sides of the same coin. Aiki is, ultimately, about unification. Time for Aikido folks to end this war and realize that development of both aspects of Aiki are needed for the practitioner to become adept at the art of Aikido.

Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground. Likewise, technique executed by simply mimicking the movements of the instructor without the application of power that comes from a unified mind and body will result in an honest uke moving through nage like fire through a field of dry wheat.

Both sides in this debate bring added value to the table. Time has come to abandon the dogma that characterizes entrenched positions and approach Aiki in a holistic manner that recognizes its multifaceted nature.

Ron

I'd note that nobody has argued against the validity or utility of moving around, evading, jumping, dodging or any related action as a martial tactic. If you watch Shirata (the source of that "immovable body" quote) you'll notice that he moves about quite a bit.

The difference of opinion comes as to what the definition of "Aiki" is - saying that "Aiki" isn't evasion doesn't mean that evasion is wrong, or even inadvisable. Donuts aren't "Aiki" either, but where would my day be without them? :D

To the people who think that all definitions of "Aiki" out to be accepted, that it's all good, what if I said something like "I was walking down the street and I turned to a teenager who was annoying me, kicked him in the nuts and broke both his arms, what wonderful Aiki!". Wouldn't you feel obligated to say something?

Best,

Chris

Cliff Judge
01-04-2013, 12:33 PM
I'd note that nobody has argued against the validity or utility of moving around, evading, jumping, dodging or any related action as a martial tactic. If you watch Shirata (the source of that "immovable body" quote) you'll notice that he moves about quite a bit.

The difference of opinion comes as to what the definition of "Aiki" is - saying that "Aiki" isn't evasion doesn't mean that evasion is wrong, or even inadvisable. Donuts aren't "Aiki" either, but where would my day be without them? :D

To the people who think that all definitions of "Aiki" out to be accepted, that it's all good, what if I said something like "I was walking down the street and I turned to a teenager who was annoying me, kicked him in the nuts and broke both his arms, what wonderful Aiki!". Wouldn't you feel obligated to say something?

Best,

Chris

Well I would wonder why his arms were dangling between his legs for one.

phitruong
01-04-2013, 12:37 PM
Time for Aikido folks to end this war and realize that development of both aspects of Aiki are needed for the practitioner to become adept at the art of Aikido.


why end it? the ki war hasn't been ended, then why should the aiki war need to end? it's human nature to be entrenched in our own belief. it has been going on since day one, when Ugg the neanderthal told his budy Arrhhh that mammoth tasted better with steak sauce than with ketchup; wherein Arrhhh promptly clubbed Ugg on the head with a giant smoked turkey leg, that he got at Disney where his kid insisted that he should get one, because it looked cool. if you look back into human history, war and conflict brought about change; otherwise, things would just stagnate. why should it be any different here? it's the same with the war between coffee or tea. and what with the milk stuffs in them?


Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground.
Ron

I think the statement of "immovable body" needs some clarification. it seemed folks think that "immovable body" meant that one should just stand there to be stabbed. immovable body meant that if you (generic you versus you you versus yu which is a chinese guy selling those white buns of death in china somewhere) are very centered and capable of redirecting forces elsewhere and not moving if he/she/it so choose. and when he/she/it so choose to move, it will be an immovable body on rail, i.e. you moved with very centered. that he/she/it is very difficult being tip over/push over/pull over (unless he/she/it is drunk which will be pull over for DUI), generally not over of some form or fashion. so please folks, when you hear the phrase "immovable body" don't think that i will stand in one place and let you stab me. there is a different between capability and stupidity.

that's my 5 large dongs (dong is money unit in vietnamese) get your mind out of the gutter! :)

phitruong
01-04-2013, 12:44 PM
Donuts aren't "Aiki" either, but where would my day be without them? :D


blaspheme! donuts are aiki, you heathen! it contains triangle, circle and square! it's holly aiki!


To the people who think that all definitions of "Aiki" out to be accepted, that it's all good, what if I said something like "I was walking down the street and I turned to a teenager who was annoying me, kicked him in the nuts and broke both his arms, what wonderful Aiki!". Wouldn't you feel obligated to say something?


ya, why would you break his arms? what he would he use to hold his nuts while rolling on the ground screaming? nuts and legs are ok, in combo, but not arms! where are your manner? :D

akiy
01-04-2013, 01:01 PM
To the people who think that all definitions of "Aiki" out to be accepted, that it's all good, what if I said something like "I was walking down the street and I turned to a teenager who was annoying me, kicked him in the nuts and broke both his arms, what wonderful Aiki!". Wouldn't you feel obligated to say something?
Personally, I'd say that saying "what wonderful Aiki!" in that situation could very well be considered out of the ordinary, yes. (Unless, of course, you're using your internal training skills to kick the guy in the nuts, heh.)

For the above example, I'd probably also say that I don't think anyone here is saying that 'all definitions of "Aiki" ought to be accepted.' Rather, I think what many are saying is that interpretations of the term "aiki" may have become different than its original meaning(s) and that these (re)interpretations have become commonly and acceptably used. Language (as I know you know, Chris) is constantly evolving, for better or for worse -- like the word "awful" used to mean something more akin to "awesome" (full of awe).

Having said this, I'd like to also also say that I'm not saying that researching the original meaning(s) of "aiki" is unfruitful nor uninteresting, nor am I saying that putting into practice the principles and methods behind the original meaning(s) of "aiki" are such, either. Rather, to keep insisting, seemingly, that people are inherently misguided when they use a different interpretation of "aiki" as they've come to understand it through their aikido training doesn't seem awfully constructive to me.

-- Jun

RonRagusa
01-04-2013, 01:20 PM
I think the statement of "immovable body" needs some clarification. it seemed folks think that "immovable body" meant that one should just stand there to be stabbed. immovable body meant that if you (generic you versus you you versus yu which is a chinese guy selling those white buns of death in china somewhere) are very centered and capable of redirecting forces elsewhere and not moving if he/she/it so choose. and when he/she/it so choose to move, it will be an immovable body on rail, i.e. you moved with very centered. that he/she/it is very difficult being tip over/push over/pull over (unless he/she/it is drunk which will be pull over for DUI), generally not over of some form or fashion. so please folks, when you hear the phrase "immovable body" don't think that i will stand in one place and let you stab me. there is a different between capability and stupidity.

It was meant as a metaphor on the limitations of power Phi, not to be taken literally. You will admit that power has its limitations, won't you?

Ron

Chris Li
01-04-2013, 01:44 PM
For the above example, I'd probably also say that I don't think anyone here is saying that 'all definitions of "Aiki" ought to be accepted.' Rather, I think what many are saying is that interpretations of the term "aiki" may have become different than its original meaning(s) and that these (re)interpretations have become commonly and acceptably used. Language (as I know you know, Chris) is constantly evolving, for better or for worse -- like the word "awful" used to mean something more akin to "awesome" (full of awe).


Very diplomatic. :) I think that all that you have said about change and evolving is true. However, I think the stickng point is that many people don't want to be told that they way that they are using the term is different from the way that Ueshiba may have used it.

I understand that, you remember how much resistance Stan got when he started saying that modern Aikido was a product of Kisshomaru and Tohei rather than Morihei. That furor, and the memory of it, has died down quite a bit, and it wasn't fueled by online discussion the way that things are now, but people's reactions were quite similar, IMO.

Best,

Chris

DH
01-04-2013, 02:28 PM
Two sides of the same coin. Aiki is, ultimately, about unification. Time for Aikido folks to end this war and realize that development of both aspects of Aiki are needed for the practitioner to become adept at the art of Aikido.

Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground. Likewise, technique executed by simply mimicking the movements of the instructor without the application of power that comes from a unified mind and body will result in an honest uke moving through nage like fire through a field of dry wheat.

Both sides in this debate bring added value to the table. Time has come to abandon the dogma that characterizes entrenched positions and approach Aiki in a holistic manner that recognizes its multifaceted nature.

Ron
While I agree with your overall intentions and points I wanted to clarify one thing.
You quoted my tag line of Shirata: PLace the immovable body in an invincible position...you said
Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground.
This is not what the immovable body means. It has nothing to do with standing still. Nothing at all. In fact the training that creates the immovable body, is something Ueshiba was deeply immersed in. Push testing constantly. I continue to meet old budo people who verify this as well. But it is the qualities created in that practice that produce a body capable of non-telegraphed, balance movement from center, that is very fast, some say unnaturally so and difficult to track.
Ueshiba knew this and it is why he pursued it. Does anyone care to speculate why he did this so often? Anyone care to at least speculate on the positive side?
Anyone up for the idea that the guy knew what he was doing and talking about?


So Ron. In keeping with your positive spin...and I like your idea..why.....why...can't we meet as brothers instead of fighting over a common goal for Pete's sake

Someone mentioned Heaven/earth/man, how about six direction theory?
Anyone want to speculate ...on the positive side.....why Ueshiba assigned them to aiki and power and 600 years earlier an adept came out of Katori shrine and said the same thing?
Anyone want to ask why the exact same terminology was used in China for the same thing....controlling power?
These things are real teachings. They are body skills that are known. They were NOT UESHIBA'S. He did not create them. He was quoting.
THAT SHOULD BE GOOD NEWS!
Anyone want to speculate...on the positive side.....that maybe....just maybe...there are things in budo that you don't know yet?
Anyone want to speculate...on the positive side....that you might actually enjoy learning something that you actually don't know yet but Ueshiba did, and that it makes your art more effective and fun?
Anyone?
I was so happy...gleeful even...when I was faced with something I simply did not know and all but refused to believe was even possible. So...I was wrong. So what? I was overjoyed that there were in fact secrets that were not widely known and proved to be very effective.
All of us can choose not to fight about these things. We can meet and share information and training. It's already happening
Dan

akiy
01-04-2013, 02:33 PM
Very diplomatic. :)
I try. :)
I think that all that you have said about change and evolving is true. However, I think the stickng point is that many people don't want to be told that they way that they are using the term is different from the way that Ueshiba may have used it.
For something like this, what I would personally do is share the research and let it stand on its own rather than, say, using it to seemingly point out how wrong people are with their current (and widely accepted) interpretation.

I have more to say about this, but it'll have to wait, as I really need to look at why my XML feed is not being consumed and parsed correctly by my current XParser handler configuration. :)

-- Jun

phitruong
01-04-2013, 02:33 PM
It was meant as a metaphor on the limitations of power Phi, not to be taken literally. You will admit that power has its limitations, won't you?

Ron

sure, the nature of power is limitation. hmmm crap! have no idea why i said that, but it just popped into my head. or was it a quote somewhere. i swear that every good quote has been spoken for. but one needs to explore power to find its limitation and/or one's limitation, does it not?

Chris Li
01-04-2013, 02:47 PM
I try. :)

For something like this, what I would personally do is share the research and let it stand on its own rather than, say, using it to seemingly point out how wrong people are with their current (and widely accepted) interpretation.


That's something like Stan has done, although I note that he has also posted a number of articles (and lectures) pointing out how wrong people are with their current (and widely accepted) interpretation.

OTOH, times have changed, with the internet things tend to be much more interactive now than they were when Stan first came on the scene - and that means more butting heads. One option would be to remove oneself from the conversation, but I much prefer the current inter-flow, butting heads and all.

Best,

Chris

RonRagusa
01-04-2013, 02:54 PM
You quoted my tag line of Shirata: PLace the immovable body in an invincible position...you said
Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground.This is not what the immovable body means. It has nothing to do with standing still. Nothing at all. In fact the training that creates the immovable body, is something Ueshiba was deeply immersed in. Push testing constantly.

As I posted to Phi, my statement was meant to be taken as a metaphor, not literally. I take no side in this debate. I had the good fortune to learn from an instructor who placed great emphasis on internal work and continue internal training to this day; though via a different training paradigm than you Dan. As a result my Aikido training is a vehicle by which I can study aspects of both A. and B. in the OP.

Ron

DH
01-04-2013, 02:55 PM
sure, the nature of power is limitation. hmmm crap! have no idea why i said that, but it just popped into my head. or was it a quote somewhere. i swear that every good quote has been spoken for. but one needs to explore power to find its limitation and/or one's limitation, does it not?
The power that was discussed by Ueshiba is not the same idea of power we keep talking about. The ability to create *Power* makes aiki. It can make you exquisitely soft and ghosty...as well as be the hammer that projects or hits. They are one and the same thing although being used in a different manner. And it all goes back to a dantian or hara driven body.
Again these things were and are known. It's hard to keep pointing these things out and that most of us (me too) were operating under serious misconceptions about power in budo. We either were too strong (muscular movement) or too soft (noodle arms) or we had to evade. All of which was spoken of as wrong.
Ueshiba's quote of the tora no maki:
Ten units of force being met by 5 and 5 or 7 and 3 and the guest hand/ host hand...all have to do with aspects of the immovable body and heaven/earth/man and they are quoted in the taiji classics as one and the same.
Dan

DH
01-04-2013, 02:58 PM
As I posted to Phi, my statement was meant to be taken as a metaphor, not literally. I take no side in this debate.
Ron
I see. Can you explain what you were trying to say then with this Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground.....
Dan

RonRagusa
01-04-2013, 03:37 PM
I see. Can you explain what you were trying to say then with this Place the immovable body in the midst of a crowd of attackers and the result will be an immovable stain on the ground.....
Dan

Sure. It was a statement regarding the limitations of power showing that B. in the OP may very well be only part of the story. Equally, the statement that came after the one you reference above was intended to point out the same thing about A. in the OP. Both sides of the coin when taken singly have their limitations but when combined together in synergy become applicable to a wider variety of situations and thus expand the tool set of the Aikido practitioner.

Ron

ChrisHein
01-04-2013, 06:45 PM
You can add:

The meaning of aiki in Aikido: Focusing on comments made by Morihei Ueshiba and his pupils
Ryuta Kudo, Fumiaki Shishida
Taiikugaku kenkyu (Japan Journal of Physical Education, Health and Sport Sciences)
Vol. 55 (2010) No. 2
Released: December 28, 2010
[Advance Publication] Released: June 30, 2010 453-469

Abstract:

The main purpose of this study was to verify the process of formation and development of the concept of aiki used by Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, and his disciples. The main points can be summarized as follows:
1. The term aiki has been used to refer to particular martial arts techniques and to a spiritual state that can be experienced by practicing Aikido. Morihei taught aiki as a technique, as shown in the memorandum of the Japanese Imperial Navy Admiral Isamu Takeshita around 1930. Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Morihei Ueshiba's son, also introduced these techniques in his book, "Techniques of Aikido" (1962), etc. However, neither Morehei Ueshiba nor his son explained about aiki in detail. Kenji Tomiki and Gozo Shioda used aiki as a term of technique, but they do not seem to have taught techniques under the name of aiki.
2. Onisaburo Deguchi, the head of Omoto-kyo, used the expressions "the union between a kami and a mortal" in 1921 and "the great love of the kami" in 1935, which Morihei later emphasized in relation to aiki. Omoto-kyo heavily influenced the building of Morihei's thoughts on aiki and Aikido. Aiki was likened to the great love of the Universe, Heaven and Earth, or the kami who nurtures all nature and mortals. In short, a) aiki is the union between the kami as love, and mortals, hence the practice of aiki is the purification of mind and body; b) the practice of Aikido creates a paradise for mortals on earth; c) because the kami does not oppose anyone, a practitioner does not oppose in Aikido. Morihei's thought influenced the policy of the succeeding organization of Aikido through Kisshomaru.
3. Morihei's four main pupils inherited his thoughts through several arrangements. Shioda explained aiki as "a technique for following the laws of nature". Tohei insisted that aiki is "the union between the ki in heaven and earth and a mortal". Sunadomari interpreted aiki as a combative technique and a divine work. Tomiki understood the term in two ways: one is a technique that falls into the category of kuzushi (balance-breaking), and the other is the unity of ki (energy) between nature and man. As to the way that Aikido should develop in the future, we need to study further Morihei's thoughts and their development under his pupils.

Link: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jjpehss/55/2/55_09024/_pdf (in Japanese)

Surely someone will provide a translation.

This is really good.

So I've been reading lot's and lot's on "Aiki" and it's meaning, and found lot's and lot's I didn't expect to find. If I were to make a guess, I would say that Ueshiba used the word "Aiki" in terms of martial arts, almost never, with the exception of referencing "Aiki-do". And that the thing I've called "aiki" for years wasn't really what Ueshiba would have called Aiki, but came to be known through the practice of Aikido (I'm talking about definition A, from the OP). Now Ueshiba does say, in "Budo" that understanding "Aiki" will naturally happen by studying Aikido. So since definition "A" has been learned about through the practice of Aikido, we could make a claim that that is "Aiki" or at least a kind of "Aiki". I think definition "B", and what the "IP" people call "Aiki" would be called, at least in the Iwama system, Kokyu. Which is huge part of Aikido, and you could make the claim that it's so important that you'd call it "Aiki".

The truth is probably that Onisaburo Deguchi came up with the word, and was thinking specifically of spiritual practices. He got Ueshiba and Takeda to adopt the word to their art. The both ran with the word, and so did their students, and we have a dozen, slightly different, legitimate definitions of the word "Aiki".

Chris Li
01-04-2013, 06:58 PM
The truth is probably that Onisaburo Deguchi came up with the word, and was thinking specifically of spiritual practices. He got Ueshiba and Takeda to adopt the word to their art. The both ran with the word, and so did their students, and we have a dozen, slightly different, legitimate definitions of the word "Aiki".

This discussion happened years ago, didn't it? Pre-Ueshiba use of the word "Aiki" is pretty well documented. Check out the cover of "Budo Hiketsu: Aiki no Jutsu", from 1900, on this page (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-04-01/aikido-without-peace-or-harmony).

Best,

Chris

ChrisHein
01-04-2013, 07:23 PM
There have been several possible meanings of the word "aiki" over the years. There are older usages of the word then this. What is your point?

Chris Li
01-04-2013, 07:56 PM
There have been several possible meanings of the word "aiki" over the years. There are older usages of the word then this. What is your point?

Well, you claimed that Deguchi came up with the word, but it has a history before 1922 when Deguchi suggested it, and that has been documented.

Takeda and Deguchi disliked each other, can you really see someone as egotistical as Takeda taking direction? How about people like Sagawa, who pre-date Ueshiba in Daito-ryu but still used the term "Aiki"?

FWIW, there are quite a few martial references using the word "Aiki" made by Ueshiba post-war.

What's your point?

Best,

Chris

DH
01-04-2013, 09:26 PM
Notation from Horikawa's father in his training notes from 1913:
"Apply Aiki here."
Both predating Chris Hein's date reference, while also countering his point by it's use in a martial context while doing a technique. I don't see much of a counter there, nor a reason to debate it.
There are many other references Ueshiba used for Aiki being martial and I am bit shocked that people would ever even think that when he exuded power and controlling presence and used age old terms known for producing same. There is an actual list and they have been listed so many times here that I am beginning to wonder if people are being intentionally obtuse to make a point. I dunno.

Those higher level examples using Daito ryu and Chinese references both verbally, written and on video, should be a staple in the art. As no one I have met can explain them or actually do them to demonstrate Aiki I wonder if they still exist or are currently openly taught anywhere.
I can't think of a way to explain them on the net in writing that would be definitive, but it sure is important to at last refer to them and their immense value to anyone practicing the way of aiki or Aikido™. We continue to mention them to keep them in both correct historical and applicable context. Although I truly think his higher level work and his quotations are discussions that are only fruitful when we can explain them and then actually do them...in person. And... no one gets mad!!! Instead we laugh and have fun! Who would ever have thought? Martial artists from many different arts coming together and learning Ueshiba's aiki, using his exercises and terms and having fun while doing it.
Ueshiba would be so happy
Dan

ChrisHein
01-04-2013, 10:45 PM
Well, you claimed that Deguchi came up with the word, but it has a history before 1922 when Deguchi suggested it, and that has been documented.

Takeda and Deguchi disliked each other, can you really see someone as egotistical as Takeda taking direction? How about people like Sagawa, who pre-date Ueshiba in Daito-ryu but still used the term "Aiki"?

FWIW, there are quite a few martial references using the word "Aiki" made by Ueshiba post-war.

What's your point?

Best,

Chris

By "came up with the name", I didn't mean he invented the word "Aiki", I meant that he decided the word sounded good, and should be associated with the martial arts taught to Omoto Kyo followers. Here is a passage from and interview Stan Pranin held with Noriaki Inoue.


Pranin: Would you talk about the name change from Daito-ryu aiki Jujutsu to Aiki Budo?

It was Onisaburo Deguchi Sensei who gave me the name "Aiki Budo". He said that "Daito-ryu Jujutsu" was not the right name for the art. He called Ueshiba Sensei and told him to stop calling it "Daito-ryu Jujutsu" and suggested that he should call it "aiki" instead. Ueshiba Sensei, in the beginning, was very hesitant to use the name "aiki" but later agreed. Later, I began to call the art "Aiki Budo". Until then it was called "Kobu Budo". Although Ueshiba Sensei said that "aiki is love", that is absurd. It is not that small. "A" is the voice of heaven. "liii" is ki. "Aaa" and "iki" are continuously in movement.


From this it sounds like Inoue Sensei was saying that Deguchi was the driving force behind Ueshiba calling his art "aiki" anything.

ChrisHein
01-04-2013, 10:55 PM
Notation from Horikawa's father in his training notes from 1913:
"Apply Aiki here."
Both predating Chris Hein's date reference,

The date of the origin, and it's meaning are much older then this. Josh Lerner (here: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21929) Pointed out that Aiki, was a 2nd century BC, Chinese word used to describe parts of religious rituals in Daoist Sexual intercourse.

Now you certainly don't believe that Takeda Sokaku was talking about Dauist sexual practices when he was using the word Aiki, do you? Well that's the oldest reference I've seen, so unless the use of the word changed, that must be what Takeda was talking about....

Or, possibly, language evolves. And the meaning of a word changes over time. What I was pointing out there, is it makes since that what Inoue was saying could very well be the case.

Chris Li
01-05-2013, 12:06 AM
By "came up with the name", I didn't mean he invented the word "Aiki", I meant that he decided the word sounded good, and should be associated with the martial arts taught to Omoto Kyo followers. Here is a passage from and interview Stan Pranin held with Noriaki Inoue.

From this it sounds like Inoue Sensei was saying that Deguchi was the driving force behind Ueshiba calling his art "aiki" anything.

I'm not arguing that - but he didn't come up with anything, the term "Aiki" was in common in usage in Daito-ryu before that time. He just suggested they add it to the name, that's very different than conjuring it out of thin air.

Think about it, there's no way, IMO, that Takeda follows Deguchi's suggestions unless Aiki were already the core of his art.

Best,

Chris

ChrisHein
01-05-2013, 12:19 AM
No one is saying anything about "conjuring it out of thin air". I'm saying that the word "Aiki" was appealing to Deguchi, who influenced Inoue and Ueshiba to change the name of their art from "Kobu Budo" to Aiki Budo to eventually Aikido.

There was clearly a lot of bad blood between Takeda and Deguchi, but there are also times with they were being very civil to each other. There is lot's going on there, it's hard to say exactly. But it's certainly not as clear cut as many would like to make it seem.

When did Daito Ryu Jujutsu become Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu?

Chris Li
01-05-2013, 12:30 AM
No one is saying anything about "conjuring it out of thin air". I'm saying that the word "Aiki" was appealing to Deguchi, who influenced Inoue and Ueshiba to change the name of their art from "Kobu Budo" to Aiki Budo to eventually Aikido.

There was clearly a lot of bad blood between Takeda and Deguchi, but there are also times with they were being very civil to each other. There is lot's going on there, it's hard to say exactly. But it's certainly not as clear cut as many would like to make it seem.

When did Daito Ryu Jujutsu become Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu?

About the same time.

All I'm saying is that suggesting a word that is already in common usage is substantially different from coming up with a new term.

Best,

Chris

akiy
01-05-2013, 10:15 AM
Just a quick note that I have moved three posts by Ron Ragusa and Chris Li to a new thread, 'Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki".'

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22135

-- Jun

ChrisHein
01-05-2013, 12:30 PM
About the same time.

All I'm saying is that suggesting a word that is already in common usage is substantially different from coming up with a new term.

Best,

Chris

Alright, I'll be clear. I meant to say, Deguchi liked the word "Aiki". I do not believe that he invented the word "Aiki". But I do believe Deguchi was more interested in his own views on how the word could be used than what anyone else might have meant by the word. I would also like to say Deguchi's influence can't be easily dismissed.

hughrbeyer
01-06-2013, 12:29 PM
Anybody have any idea if "aiki" was used in Omoto-kyo?