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sorokod
01-07-2013, 10:33 AM
Perhaps the following is the most relevant to the current discussion. The source is the FAQ for Fascia Research Group (Division of Neurophysiology, of Ulm University, Germany) website at http://www.fasciaresearch.de


Q. Can fascia contract on its own, independently from adjacent skeletal muscle fibers?

A. If one includes long term tissue contractures (like Morbus Dupuytren, Palmar Fibromatosis, etc.) within the realm of that question, then the answer is a clear yes. The work of Tomasek et al. strongly suggests that incremental summation of active cellular contractions plays a substantial role in such tissue contractures. The suspected contractile cells are fibroblasts or myofibroblasts.

In our own research, we performed an immunohistochemical examination for the presence of myofibroblasts in lumbar fascia, plantar fascia and Fascia lata from human donors. (For this we used the presence of alpha-smooth muscle actin containing stress fiber bundles as a marker for myofibroblasts, after subtracting those bundles which are associated with vascular vessels). We found such cells in all examined fascial tissues. We also observed a large inter-individual as well as intra-individual variance regarding the density of those fiber bundles, as well as indications for an increased density in perimysial tissues.

In addition we conducted mechanographic examinations of rat lumbar fascia in an organ bath environment for a potential contractile reaction in response to stimulation with different pharmacological agents. We were able to induce a clear contractile response in a significant number of fascia specimens in response to either the thromboxane analogue U46619, fetal calf serum (FCS) or high dosages of mepyramine. While not all samples responded to such stimulation, retrospective tissue analysis revealed a higher density of alpha smooth muscle actin containing stress fiber bundles in responder tissues compared with the non responding ones. Samples pretreated with the cell disrupting substance cytochalasin-D showed insignificant responses only. Neither adrenaline (epinephrin), acetylcholin, caffeine, angiotensine nor adenosine triggered any contractile responses. Currently we are examining samples pretreated with a a specific thromboxane receptor antagonist for their response to U46619 and also samples pretreated with a Rho-kinase inhibitor substance for their responses to U46619, FCS and mepyramine. Here we have not found any contractile response so far. Maximum force response in successful contraction tests usually occurs 15-45 minutes after substance addition; and seems to reverse when the stimulatory agent is removed.

Based on these findings, we are currently convinced that - at least in some samples of rat lumbar fascia, and within the in vitro conditions used in our examinations - fascia can actively contract within a time frame of minutes and that the presence of intrafascial myofibroblasts seems to be responsible for that capacity. We also performed a hypothetical calculation of the potential contractile force (applied to the paraspinal fasciae of the human lumbar area, based on the histological density values of our human fasciae examinations or alternatively on the measured contractile forces in our in vitro examinations with rat fascia). The resulting force values (of approx. 5 N for the whole lumbar are) were strong enough to predict a potential impact on normal musculoskeletal behavior, such as in gamma motor regulation. Yet they are far below the force quantities of skeletal musculature (and are not sufficient to e.g. move a limb in space in a matter of several seconds).


http://www.fasciaresearch.de/index.php/faq#Q2

DH
01-07-2013, 10:51 AM
Dual opposing spirals is not explained by anatomy trains, and fascia and meridian theory alone will not offer much help. No PT, Doc, Acupuncture therapist or otherwise I have met can do it based on ANY prior knowledge of the human anatomy. It is however fairly simple to lay out, you can feel it in others who move this way well and you can feel yourself doing certain portions. It is the end product of training to use the entire body organized in a different way. Very hard to understand in the body at first ...it takes time.
Dan

Howard Popkin
01-07-2013, 01:39 PM
what...like a year or so ?

chillzATL
01-07-2013, 03:09 PM
Dual opposing spirals is not explained by anatomy trains, and fascia and meridian theory alone will not offer much help. No PT, Doc, Acupuncture therapist or otherwise I have met can do it based on ANY prior knowledge of the human anatomy. It is however fairly simple to lay out, you can feel it in others who move this way well and you can feel yourself doing certain portions. It is the end product of training to use the entire body organized in a different way. Very hard to understand in the body at first ...it takes time.
Dan

If nothing else it gives some scientific backing to what appears to be happening or at least how it could be happening, which is interesting in its own right. Especially when you start getting some connection in places where you don't really have muscles to flex to connect your body.

sorokod
01-08-2013, 03:02 AM
Fascia has a long history in the forums: http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&q=fascia+site:www.aikiweb.com%2Fforums .It is nice to see a scientific conclusion on the subject.

phitruong
01-08-2013, 06:30 AM
what...like a year or so ?

nah! shouldn't take that long. it's child play! ;) *sorry couldn't help meself*

HL1978
01-08-2013, 09:17 AM
Fascia has a long history in the forums: http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&q=fascia+site:www.aikiweb.com%2Fforums .It is nice to see a scientific conclusion on the subject.

Akuzawa sensei can "tug" on his skin and it doesn't look like flexing muscle. I haven't had the opportunity to ask him if this is the same mechanism that Mike Sigman talks about in terms of tugging on the arms via the middle in silk reeling or not. I would assume it is related.

While Dr. Schliep did state that he gets messages from martial artists around the world looking him to validate their "super powers", Dr. Schliep also stated that it was his opinon that Akuzawa sensei and others like him likely have some sort of "hyper conditioning" of the fascia in correspondence to an aikiweb member .

sorokod
01-08-2013, 10:11 AM
Akuzawa sensei can "tug" on his skin and it doesn't look like flexing muscle. I haven't had the opportunity to ask him if this is the same mechanism that Mike Sigman talks about in terms of tugging on the arms via the middle in silk reeling or not. I would assume it is related.

While Dr. Schliep did state that he gets messages from martial artists around the world looking him to validate their "super powers", Dr. Schliep also stated that it was his opinon that Akuzawa sensei and others like him likely have some sort of "hyper conditioning" of the fascia in correspondence to an aikiweb member .

Can the aikiweb member post the correspondence here?

DH
01-08-2013, 10:36 AM
Akuzawa sensei can "tug" on his skin and it doesn't look like flexing muscle. I haven't had the opportunity to ask him if this is the same mechanism that Mike Sigman talks about in terms of tugging on the arms via the middle in silk reeling or not. I would assume it is related.

While Dr. Schliep did state that he gets messages from martial artists around the world looking him to validate their "super powers", Dr. Schliep also stated that it was his opinon that Akuzawa sensei and others like him likely have some sort of "hyper conditioning" of the fascia in correspondence to an aikiweb member .
There are many different "final word" studies on fascia that have occurred recently, and some of them directly contradict each other. The models used for the test parameters are of their individual making and the test subjects are usually not trained individuals.
Remember the taiji guy, whom the scientist said was doing things they thought were not possible. Care to add up how many "discoveries" science has made of things they previously said were not possible.
On the other hand we have budo and highly trained movement. I lost track of how many of you...told certain people...they were full of it...till you stood in front of them and couldn't explain how they did what they did. ;)
Seriously experienced Budo people are a pain in the ass. :D They are always convinced they know everything....til they don't!
Dan

Keith Larman
01-08-2013, 11:09 AM
I've posted before that the whole fascia thing could turn out to be a red herring of sorts. However, that said, I think the appeal of it as a theory is that it tracks fairly well with the perception some of us have as to how we feel things changing inside ourselves. The more you work on this stuff the more "connected" you feel in a rather odd way. And it isn't easy. Of course it could just be some sort of group mass suggestion going on among the participants and I'm sure those who haven't done the stuff and are offering critique from a distance can and probably would suggest that as a possibility. My problem is that I've felt and seen things done that go beyond the scope of what I understand given current models of physiology. Which to me does *not* mean magic, just that my understanding of current models obviously isn't good enough to explain it. I suppose another alternative is to deny that it even happened or to say it was "something else" entirely and the perceptions of those who have been involved are all simultaneously incorrect.

Shrug. I just keep training. For me, while I'm intensely interested in how it all works, the real driver to going to get this training is wanting to be able to do the stuff some folk can do. And I find myself getting my little toe in the door a bit with my own training and students. So part of me gets back to what Ellis posted (in another thread? I forget...) about the issues and contradictions/ problems maybe being in how we see things. For me the issue is doing stuff better and finding better tools, new training, new ways. It's all good.

And some seem to think one has to throw away everything to get something new. Nah, just live with a little uncertainty in life and keep learning whatever the hell you can. Frankly I find it astounding that folk even argue about this stuff. Today there are *so* many options to train with so many interesting people. Some are fools and charlatans, others are profoundly gifted. Some are profoundly gifted but couldn't teach if their life depended on it. Others teach really well in person and leave you with a lot of work to do until the next time. I am at a loss as to why folk need to spend so much damned time up front alienating the hell out of each other before actually just stepping on to the mat. Think it's all BS? Great. Say so and move on. I go to a lot of seminars and see a lot of the same people, people willing to try, people willing to test. I also don't see a lot of people who you'd think would be there. Whatever. I plan on getting some training real soon now even though I"ve been on hiatus with massive spinal problems compounded with 2 weeks of walking pneumonia. Hopefully after the plane trip I'll be able to get my degrading spine bending enough to learn a few new things before I may find my career over.

Pfffft. So there. ;) Seriously, there comes a point when someone insisting on being convinced to their satisfaction is a waste of time. Just not going to happen when it appears that the underlying motivation is more about protecting the honor of the respectable art of Aikido. Frankly I think the old girl can handle some questions, some differences of opinion, and a little slap in the butt now and then... But, that said, rest soundly. How many gazillion people train in Aikido nowadays? It's freaking everywhere taught by all sorts of folk from all walks of life. Aikido ain't gonna change much in most places for a very long time. She's safe from the unwashed heathen and it's not hard to ignore the small groups saying "hey, this is more what it's supposed to be". Lord knows the Tomiki guys can coexist with the Iwama guys who can coexist with the Ki Society guy who can coexist with the Aikikai who can... What's one more group of whackos*.

*They're all whacko's IMHO *except* whichever group you, dear reader, are a member of -- your group is great! Really, you're great, the rest are nuts...

Mert Gambito
01-08-2013, 12:21 PM
Dual opposing spirals is not explained by anatomy trains, and fascia and meridian theory alone will not offer much help. No PT, Doc, Acupuncture therapist or otherwise I have met can do it based on ANY prior knowledge of the human anatomy. It is however fairly simple to lay out, you can feel it in others who move this way well and you can feel yourself doing certain portions.

It is the end product of training to use the entire body organized in a different way. Very hard to understand in the body at first ...it takes time.


The above statements, for those who are just starting or planning to undertake IP/IS training, really need to be taken at face value.

Again, in the introductory portion of the ILC training model in which meridians are discussed, the primary purpose of that is to simply allow students to understand which portions of the body are "yin" and which are "yang" -- so for much of the introductory training, a student is asked to think of, and operate his/her body as just two integrated, complementary parts/halves. From ILC's public website: http://iliqchuan.com/content/yin-yang

Perhaps the following is the most relevant to the current discussion. The source is the FAQ for Fascia Research Group (Division of Neurophysiology, of Ulm University, Germany) website at http://www.fasciaresearch.de . . . It is nice to see a scientific conclusion on the subject.

Dr. Schliep also stated that it was his opinon that Akuzawa sensei and others like him likely have some sort of "hyper conditioning" of the fascia
There are many different "final word" studies on fascia that have occurred recently, and some of them directly contradict each other.
I've posted before that the whole fascia thing could turn out to be a red herring of sorts.

David, it's really too early, by the scientific community's own characterizations of the state of fascia research, to say that it has reached definitive conclusions -- and even if they were to do so, those initial conclusions would not address the topic of IP/IS per se:

The Fascia Research Congress (http://fasciacongress.org/) holds what it calls "international conferences dedicated to the newly emerging field of 'Fascia Studies.'"
The Fascia Research Group, from whose FAQ (http://www.fasciaresearch.de/index.php/faq#Q3) you quoted above, acknowledges, in the Q&A that follows what you quoted, that it hasn't yet published its findings on active contractile properties in a peer-reviewed journal, and concedes: "we suppose that the extra time taken by us for the further substantiation of our reports will contribute to making these findings more acceptable to the wider scientific community."

But really, this is all literally academic, given that incontrovertible first-hand proof of the physiological changes, regardless of what science eventually determines they are -- separate from IP, as well as in function to demonstrate IP -- can readily be had when training with a vetted IP/IS instructor.

HL1978
01-08-2013, 01:04 PM
Can the aikiweb member post the correspondence here?

I can find out, this occurred maybe 3-5 years back.

patrick de block
01-08-2013, 01:06 PM
Chris,

A simple question: have you read 'Hidden in Plain Sight' by Ellis Amdur?

Yes.

I asked this question because I wanted a common ground and I wanted to disregard all possible information gathered from other sources like this site.

If I read 'intent-driven processes' I try to understand this and I remember something written in HIPS p. 46-47 'Explanation no. 11: The Differences between Shi, Ki, and Ryoku' and I think I understand something more. It is clear from the text that the intent drives in this threefold and it is a process. As far as my understanding goes: intent creates the energy that results in strength.

While leafing through the book to find this Explanation no. 11, I saw a photogragh on page 45 of Hisa Takuma and in the caption is written '... the reciprocal balancing of forces in the body ...' Intrigued I read the whole 'Explanation no. 10'. I won't quote it here, it's too long, but do read the two passages in italics on page 46 again. When I read on about 'Dual opposing spirals' and its explanation given by Mert Gambito and just having read 'Explanation no. 10' I think I have an idea what is meant, also by looking at the pictures provided.

That's how minds work, I think, you connect almost involuntary the new information to the information you already have in an attempt to understand the new information. Do I know now all there is to know, no. Can I do it, no. But if I was interested (I'm not :D ), I would seek out someone to show me this and let me feel it. And another but, if I would summarize the post by Mert Gambito as: 'So the 'dual opposing spirals' are muscular connections inside of the body, and Dan's method, is a way of using these muscular groups.' my father or mother would tell me: 'Don't play at being more dumb than you already are'. That's a literal translation of a Dutch expression, I don't know the English or American equivalent.

DH
01-08-2013, 07:37 PM
I discuss fascial connections among other things when I train people. Again, Doctors, Chiropractors, Nurses, PT and number of other therapists who train with me have proven to have no advantage. NONE...over anyone else. The point is that even having the correct anatomical mechanisms laid out does nothing. I think much of this talk of fascia is like most everything else on the internet..a lot of jibber jabber from people, who you meet and they have squat.

Knowing tendon/fascia/muscular connections and even knowing the correct use, does nothing to help when one is lacking an understanding of intent, and yin and yang. Even intent... remains flawed when one does not understand yin and yang and how to not only support movement in opposites but then how to neutralize force using intent to create yin and yang in a constant flow under stress.

It is an understanding born from reaching certain vantage points.
When it comes to these things, it is my opinion that most martial artists simply don't know what they're doing or talking about. It's just simply a sad fact.And rank and decades in China and Japan means virtually nothing. Most people are in various stages of disarray, once side weighted, wobbly on their feet, their lateral stability is poor, they can't find your center with their power, they can't protect theirs and when you touch them they do all the wrong things and fight back or evade.

The fix has proved to be through a body technology that most budo people really have no knowledge of and cannot address or dialogue on. Once you start taking their body apart and explaining the way we move, people get overwhelmed with a technology and way to move each part that they had no idea even existed on the planet. IME, knowing that fascia is involved is all but meaningless to help them. It just satisfies the western mind. The metaphors and visual models work and have worked for generations...even before modern science stepped into scre....er...help us understand better ways to do athletics.
Dan

Dan

DH
01-08-2013, 09:31 PM
Chris,
While leafing through the book to find this Explanation no. 11, I saw a photogragh on page 45 of Hisa Takuma and in the caption is written '... the reciprocal balancing of forces in the body ...' Intrigued I read the whole 'Explanation no. 10'. I won't quote it here, it's too long, but do read the two passages in italics on page 46 again. When I read on about 'Dual opposing spirals' and its explanation given by Mert Gambito and just having read 'Explanation no. 10' I think I have an idea what is meant, also by looking at the pictures provided.
If I would summarize the post by Mert Gambito as: 'So the 'dual opposing spirals' are muscular connections inside of the body, and Dan's method, is a way of using these muscular groups.
Of course everyone is "using muscle." In and of itself it is a meaningless phrase.
1. It is "how" we are using them
2. What tendon/fascia has to do with it
3. The undefined quality of intent that most here really don't understand and cannot manifest

Leaving out the details of discussing what dual opposing spirals actually are I would offer in a rough outline that it is a whole body movement from the feet to the top of the head, using a sophisticated use of the legs, qua, waist, dantian, back and arms that takes years to master. Depending on where you touch someone; it offers no-force. It absorbs, projects, leads, suppresses, follows, deflects, or any combination of all of them...at once.

As we often say its like sticking your finger in a Quisenart (blender). It gives no-force, it receives no-force.
It is the embodiment of in yo. It is the living aiki. Hence Ueshiba saying the mystery(s) of aiki are revealed in this one movement.

Anyway, back to intent and yin and yang. It is so very hard to really get down, yet paradoxically rather easy to show. I do one example of someone touching or grabbing my arm and I shut off and move normally. Then I turn on intent driven yin and yang supported movement and the guy instantly feels aiki. Outside they look like identical movements. One Shihan made me do it over and over and then on him...over and over.
I am not being coy or playing games it's just all but impossible to explain on the net and people struggle trying to do it in person. But interestingly enough, entire martial systems are named or have intent in the title of their name. Ueshiba and Sagawa both discuss it as well as any number of lesser lights.
So
1. The seriously good guys for generations in China all wanted their arts named after intent.
2. Rickey and Bobby from the suburban mall dojo want to argue that those Chinese guys are full of crap.

Er....uhm....I'm going with the Chinese guys. ;)
Dan

Mary Eastland
01-09-2013, 07:32 AM
Hey, Dan. Very nice website.

I am interested in the softness aspect that is in the testimonials. I think it is the whole key.

Do you believe you have to be tense first to be able to develop softness? I don't but it seems to many that if one is not using a lot of muscle one is not being martial. Just interested in your take on that.

Happy New Year.

Allen Beebe
01-09-2013, 07:39 AM
Those Chinese guys are dead in China. :dead:

Ricky and Bobby at the Mall think they (and you) are full of crap anyway. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile . . .

Danny :cool: , who's next door, won't answer his phone on the day and time he told me to call him. :uch:

Just don't forget to pencil us in please! :(

:D

Allen

DH
01-09-2013, 10:10 AM
Hey, Dan. Very nice website.
I am interested in the softness aspect that is in the testimonials. I think it is the whole key.
Do you believe you have to be tense first to be able to develop softness? I don't but it seems to many that if one is not using a lot of muscle one is not being martial. Just interested in your take on that.

Happy New Year.
On the web site:
Thank you for recognizing my meager efforts. I am struggling with identifying myself as a teacher in any form and having to be responsive to a growing group of people who exercise poor judgement in returning to train with me! :D

On softness:
I think softness is key as well.

From my vantage point it is not simple as saying "soft."
Unfortunately I tend to part company with almost everyone in Aikido and Taiji and other so called *soft arts* once I see and feel their understanding of what soft is. Soft has always....always...been associated with power. It is just not the type of power people think of when you use the term power. It is almost a waste of time talking to people about it.

Needle in cotton
Four ounces can move a thousand pounds
Ten units of force being handled with 5 and 5 or 7 and 3
Guest hand / host hand
Heaven and earth ki releasing the mountain echo
The weight of a feather or a fly alighting inducing rotation
Aiki being Opposing powers
Dual opposing spirals creating friction that give birth to in/yo

On and on and on and on...
These things are all based on a common theme of unification that produces power. It is this central power or support that makes all of the rest of the legendary soft arts so powerful. Ueshiba quoted them to a deaf audience and I am doing much the same.

Tension or hard training before soft?
All I can offer is my own experiences here
For starters I disagree with that idea completely. All it really identifies is that young men are somewhat stupid and testosterone driven and have to wait until they are older to think. To that, I have personally taught younger guys not to fight the way others did and they grew up with soft power and approaches to budo.
For adults? Hard before soft is not needed either.
It's hard to think of it as just an opinion when I have very real experience teaching people from years of damage in hard budo, years of damage in so called soft budo and newbies with no martial background. My *opinion* is that the ones who comes from hard backgrounds are the hardest to teach. The ones who come from soft arts are also difficult due to their skewed definitions of what soft is. Most people I encounter from the well known soft arts offer either of two approaches:

When they are controlled they offer muscle and shoulder movement like everyone else.
Evade and offer noodle arms

Most people who participate in soft arts are not very educated about the history of their own arts or the soft arts in general. Hell most don't even know there were soft arts compared to hard. Typically their entire view is traced back to one or two teachers (whom they respect and admire) opinion's on what budo movement is. The realization that soft arts have a profound history, with definitions and practices completely eludes them. You'de have thought that at some point they would be asking: "Where are the new legends?" "How come we don't get it?" Nope. Instead the new approach is that the legend weren't legend worthy either.. Why? Many teachers seem to feel that after 30 years in budo what they feel like must be what everyone felt like, so the legends must have been an exaggeration.

The newbies are more of a clean slate that just accept and work on what you show and you don't have to work out their decades of bad habits and preconceived notions that keep fighting them....and me. Don't get me wrong, It does work for experienced people; according to hundreds of VERY experienced and rather jaded teachers I have had good success with retraining them and re-educating them on what soft truly is and it continues to invigorate their practices, but they will be the first to tell you it was startling, stunning, life and career changing, and a difficult process to wrap their heads around.

I am a huge fan of the soft arts and their potential, just not westerners definitions of what soft is. Particularly those who constantly evade and noodle arm in Aikido and Taiji and yet are 100% convinced that they don't and have no idea whatsoever how to explain hundreds of sayings and explanations for what soft power used to be about for thousands of years before we took over with our version.

I think my web page on The Method (http://www.bodyworkseminars.org/the-method.html) offers my view on a progressive model fairly well.
Dan

Michael Douglas
01-09-2013, 11:59 AM
I think my web page on The Method (http://www.bodyworkseminars.org/the-method.html) offers my view on a progressive model fairly well.
I don't think the word "gyroscopic" is going to do you any favours.
If you remove it the whole page will be better.
:)

DH
01-09-2013, 02:11 PM
I don't think the word "gyroscopic" is going to do you any favours.
If you remove it the whole page will be better.
:)
You may be right.
Dan.

David Orange
01-09-2013, 07:29 PM
ugh, this again? Stay out of other peoples pockets.

It's an unpleasant subject, Jason, but I think it's important to hash out the economics of martial arts teaching in this day and age.

I was a commercial "teacher," charging fees from students, from 1979 until about 1999, when I stopped charging altogether--maybe 2001 or 2002. I opened the first yoseikan budo dojo in North America in 1984 and I have taught at multiple locations and in seminar format of various kinds, only to see the numbers collapse long before it becomes viable as a living. And Dan's prices are not far from what I've always based my calculations on, so I don't see how it comes out looking like he's even breaking even from it, much less profiting. The class sizes are tiny. Sure, he does lots of seminars and now is going around the world, but that's a lot of airfare and a lot of life time invested in each seminar. So you have to figure that into his "profit." I'm not saying Dan's a bad businessman, just that budo is not his livelihood business. He is a professional with a real business as his real life which allows him to pursue his other interests in depth. As I read Dan's fee and class schedules, he breaks even or loses money to share his unique knowledge and methods with people who can appreciate them and their relevance to aikido, and thereby enrich their lives with a new direction for intensive work.

From reading Chris' translations of O Sensei's materials, very importantly including the Floating Bridge of Heaven material, I believe that Dan's method is what O Sensei was doing. In fact, I'd say that modern aikido was a less esoteric though still awesome thing created to bring in large numbers of participants to finance the free and unimpeded life of Morihei Ueshiba in his esoteric and unmarketable interests.

Anyway, congrats on getting Dan on schedule for Atlanta next month. Sorry I couldn't give more support on that and that I won't be able to attend. I hope this takes hold among the serious IP guys in ATL and that some of our local folks can attend in February.

Good work.

David

cagivaplanet
01-10-2013, 12:56 AM
On the web site:

On softness:
I think softness is key as well.

From my vantage point it is not simple as saying "soft."
Unfortunately I tend to part company with almost everyone in Aikido and Taiji and other so called *soft arts* once I see and feel their understanding of what soft is. Soft has always....always...been associated with power. It is just not the type of power people think of when you use the term power. It is almost a waste of time talking to people about it.

Needle in cotton
Four ounces can move a thousand pounds
Ten units of force being handled with 5 and 5 or 7 and 3
Guest hand / host hand
Heaven and earth ki releasing the mountain echo
The weight of a feather or a fly alighting inducing rotation
Aiki being Opposing powers
Dual opposing spirals creating friction that give birth to in/yo

On and on and on and on...
These things are all based on a common theme of unification that produces power. It is this central power or support that makes all of the rest of the legendary soft arts so powerful. Ueshiba quoted them to a deaf audience and I am doing much the same.

Tension or hard training before soft?
All I can offer is my own experiences here
For starters I disagree with that idea completely. All it really identifies is that young men are somewhat stupid and testosterone driven and have to wait until they are older to think. To that, I have personally taught younger guys not to fight the way others did and they grew up with soft power and approaches to budo.
For adults? Hard before soft is not needed either.
It's hard to think of it as just an opinion when I have very real experience teaching people from years of damage in hard budo, years of damage in so called soft budo and newbies with no martial background. My *opinion* is that the ones who comes from hard backgrounds are the hardest to teach. The ones who come from soft arts are also difficult due to their skewed definitions of what soft is. Most people I encounter from the well known soft arts offer either of two approaches:

When they are controlled they offer muscle and shoulder movement like everyone else.
Evade and offer noodle arms

Most people who participate in soft arts are not very educated about the history of their own arts or the soft arts in general. Hell most don't even know there were soft arts compared to hard. Typically their entire view is traced back to one or two teachers (whom they respect and admire) opinion's on what budo movement is. The realization that soft arts have a profound history, with definitions and practices completely eludes them. You'de have thought that at some point they would be asking: "Where are the new legends?" "How come we don't get it?" Nope. Instead the new approach is that the legend weren't legend worthy either.. Why? Many teachers seem to feel that after 30 years in budo what they feel like must be what everyone felt like, so the legends must have been an exaggeration.

The newbies are more of a clean slate that just accept and work on what you show and you don't have to work out their decades of bad habits and preconceived notions that keep fighting them....and me. Don't get me wrong, It does work for experienced people; according to hundreds of VERY experienced and rather jaded teachers I have had good success with retraining them and re-educating them on what soft truly is and it continues to invigorate their practices, but they will be the first to tell you it was startling, stunning, life and career changing, and a difficult process to wrap their heads around.

I am a huge fan of the soft arts and their potential, just not westerners definitions of what soft is. Particularly those who constantly evade and noodle arm in Aikido and Taiji and yet are 100% convinced that they don't and have no idea whatsoever how to explain hundreds of sayings and explanations for what soft power used to be about for thousands of years before we took over with our version.

I think my web page on The Method (http://www.bodyworkseminars.org/the-method.html) offers my view on a progressive model fairly well.
Dan

this has been a question of mine for the longest time. Thank you for this post Dan.

NathanMishler
01-10-2013, 07:58 AM
I think my web page on The Method (http://www.bodyworkseminars.org/the-method.html) offers my view on a progressive model fairly well.
Dan

That whole post makes me very happy, Dan. Lets me see what you are thinking better, at least a little bit. I look forward to learning this stuff from you someday.

chillzATL
01-10-2013, 09:47 AM
It's an unpleasant subject, Jason, but I think it's important to hash out the economics of martial arts teaching in this day and age.

I was a commercial "teacher," charging fees from students, from 1979 until about 1999, when I stopped charging altogether--maybe 2001 or 2002. I opened the first yoseikan budo dojo in North America in 1984 and I have taught at multiple locations and in seminar format of various kinds, only to see the numbers collapse long before it becomes viable as a living. And Dan's prices are not far from what I've always based my calculations on, so I don't see how it comes out looking like he's even breaking even from it, much less profiting. The class sizes are tiny. Sure, he does lots of seminars and now is going around the world, but that's a lot of airfare and a lot of life time invested in each seminar. So you have to figure that into his "profit." I'm not saying Dan's a bad businessman, just that budo is not his livelihood business. He is a professional with a real business as his real life which allows him to pursue his other interests in depth. As I read Dan's fee and class schedules, he breaks even or loses money to share his unique knowledge and methods with people who can appreciate them and their relevance to aikido, and thereby enrich their lives with a new direction for intensive work.

From reading Chris' translations of O Sensei's materials, very importantly including the Floating Bridge of Heaven material, I believe that Dan's method is what O Sensei was doing. In fact, I'd say that modern aikido was a less esoteric though still awesome thing created to bring in large numbers of participants to finance the free and unimpeded life of Morihei Ueshiba in his esoteric and unmarketable interests.

Anyway, congrats on getting Dan on schedule for Atlanta next month. Sorry I couldn't give more support on that and that I won't be able to attend. I hope this takes hold among the serious IP guys in ATL and that some of our local folks can attend in February.

Good work.

David

Oh you don't have to tell me. My comment wasn't directed at Dan, but at people who want to complain about someone else charging for their time. I've paid for plenty of Aikido seminars that cost the same and really only amount to about 4 hours of training time per day and no hands on time with "the man".

Sucks that you won't be able to make it. I was hoping we'd finally get to meet. The good thing about getting him down is that the hooks will be in and he'll have to come back, so there's always next time.

Now I just have to get him to reply with details...

DH
01-10-2013, 11:02 AM
Regarding fees:
Start a thread stating the fees of Saotome or Ushiro, and cut and paste the same negative comments that have been posted here.

There is an obvious undercurrent here toward me and those who train with me. I have taken more personal slams directed at my character, motives and honesty than any combination of individuals I have seen. Have we ever seen posts calling the students of Saotome or Ushiro idiots and brain washed?

It is very disheartening sometimes.
The fact that 99% of the seminar attendees write in with positive comments and the fact that no one....not one person from Aikido has been physically able to handle me matters not.
The fact that -once again- almost 100% of the people exposed ..change and adopt this matters not.

Hopefully we can someday turn the page. We'll see how it goes.

_________________________________________________________

I started the thread in an attempt to discuss why no one from here will acknowledge that almost all of those who come to these seminars switch and start training this way. Those are almost impossible odds. As outrageously successful as an outcome as you could hope for. It is far beyond anything -I- ever imagined would happen.

I wanted to discuss that. In and of itself it offers compelling credibility to the discussion that we have been having on the boards.
At the very least, if we address that topic alone, we can move forward with the fact that there must be something to this to convince so many credible teachers.

Instead, and exactly....exactly...as I predicted....no one wants to address that and they would attack me personally in any way they can. Look at the original post, look at the replies, all over the map to avoid the OP.....

I keep trying to help -and I am succeeding- so I'll keep my eye on the ball and satisfy myself with the incredible letters I keep receiving from teachers with decades of experience, thanking me for opening their eyes....with material that isn't even mine.....
It came from the founder of their own art, Aikido!!! :rolleyes:

Dan

SeiserL
01-10-2013, 11:02 AM
Anyway, congrats on getting Dan on schedule for Atlanta next month. Sorry I couldn't give more support on that and that I won't be able to attend. I hope this takes hold among the serious IP guys in ATL and that some of our local folks can attend in February.
And where can we get information about the February Atlanta seminar please?

chillzATL
01-10-2013, 11:14 AM
And where can we get information about the February Atlanta seminar please?

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22158

I'd say either reply to the thread if you're interested or email him at the address listed.

DH
01-10-2013, 11:19 AM
And where can we get information about the February Atlanta seminar please?
Lynn
I have you on the list to reply to this morning.
My reply was going to be to see the thread you have already been pointed to.
Dan

Marc Abrams
01-10-2013, 11:24 AM
Regarding fees:
Start a thread stating the fees of Saotome or Ushiro, and cut and paste the same negative comments that have been posted here.

There is an obvious undercurrent of anger here. I have taken more personal slams directed at my character, motives and honesty than any combination of individuals.
The fact that 99% of the seminar attendees write in with positive comments and the fact that no one....not one person from Aikido has been physically able to handle me matters not.

Jun has hopefully gotten...all...of us on board to knock this stuff off. We'll see how it goes.

_________________________________________________________

I started the thread in an attempt to discuss why no one from here will acknowledge that almost all of those who come to these seminars switch and start training this way. Those are almost impossible odds. As outrageously successful as an outcome as you could hope for. It is far beyond anything -I- ever imagined would happen.
I wanted to discuss that.
As I predicted....no one wants to address that! So, instead they attack -me- in anyway they can.

Look at the original post, look at the replies, all over the map to avoid the OP.....

I keep trying to help and I am succeeding so I'll keep my eye on the ball and satisfy myself with the incredible letters I keep receiving from teachers with decades of experience, thanking me for opening their eyes....with material that isn't even mine.....
It came from the founder of their own art, Aikido!!! :rolleyes:

Dan

For the record:

When I host Ushiro Sensei, I pay for his economy class airfare ONLY (roundtrip Japan-New York). He charges me NO seminar fee. I provide him with a payment of the proceeds, because of my belief that this is proper behavior on my part. I have Ushiro Sensei and several people from Japan stay at my house. I have formal meals for all of the students who travel to Japan for the seminar. My wife and I prepare gourmet meals and fine drinks for ANY teacher who teaches at my dojo. Simply ask George Ledyard Sensei about how I host teachers.

If anybody would like to suggest that Ushiro Sensei is charging exorbitant fees and is living high and mighty when he travels for seminars, then they simply do not know what they are talking about, or have been told lies. I hope to never see another post where somebody is alleging that Ushiro Sensei is somehow charging exorbitant fees for his seminars in the US.

As to Dan Harden and his seminars, it is my personal belief that Dan's seminars provide the biggest bang for the buck PERIOD. I believe that you pay less than most seminars and walk away with tons of useful information. I have a personal relationship with both Dan Harden and Ushiro Sensei. If people want to put out misinformation about either man, they can expect a corrective post from me.

Marc Abrams

DH
01-10-2013, 11:45 AM
Thanks Marc
I wasn't suggesting Ushiro was, or that Saotome was. Nor anyone else for that matter, just asking why no one else is mentioned. Pick any well know teacher and plug their name in....and isn't that the point?
What the HELL are we doing discussing fees at all?
It just keeps coming up when MY name is involved.
Where are the all threads pointed elsewhere?

Hopefully, the airing of grievances that went on in this thread can put and end to all of that and we can turn the page.

Example:
I started the thread in an attempt to discuss why no one from here will acknowledge that almost all of those who come to these seminars switch and start training this way. Those are almost impossible odds. As outrageously successful as an outcome as you could hope for. It is far beyond anything -I- ever imagined would happen.
How is it that most acknowledge they now can understand what Ueshiba was talking about
Why do people think that happened?
How could it have happened?
What does it mean, what should it mean for the discussion of Internal power and aiki?

________________________________crickets.... wind whistling through the trees.

Honest answers would move us all forward.
Dan

Marc Abrams
01-10-2013, 11:58 AM
Thanks Marc
I wasn't suggesting Ushiro was, or that Saotome was. Nor anyone else for that matter, just asking why no one else is mentioned. Pick any well know teacher and plug their name in....and isn't that the point?
What the HELL are we doing discussing fees at all?
It just keeps coming up when MY name is involved.
Where are the all threads pointed elsewhere?

Hopefully, the airing of grievances that went on in this thread can put and end to all of that and we can turn the page.

Example:
I started the thread in an attempt to discuss why no one from here will acknowledge that almost all of those who come to these seminars switch and start training this way. Those are almost impossible odds. As outrageously successful as an outcome as you could hope for. It is far beyond anything -I- ever imagined would happen.
How is it that most acknowledge they now can understand what Ueshiba was talking about
Why do people think that happened?
How could it have happened?
What does it mean, what should it mean for the discussion of Internal power and aiki?

________________________________crickets.... wind whistling through the trees.

Honest answers would move us all forward.
Dan

Dan:

I know that you were not insinuating anything about Ushiro Sensei. Like you, Ushiro Sensei tends to invoke strong opinions. I, like you, want to squash the irrelevant attacks on people, due to an absolute inability to "attack" the message. Now back to our regular programing.....

Marc Abrams

mathewjgano
01-10-2013, 02:29 PM
I started the thread in an attempt to discuss why no one from here will acknowledge that almost all of those who come to these seminars switch and start training this way. Those are almost impossible odds. As outrageously successful as an outcome as you could hope for. It is far beyond anything -I- ever imagined would happen.

I wanted to discuss that. In and of itself it offers compelling credibility to the discussion that we have been having on the boards.
At the very least, if we address that topic alone, we can move forward with the fact that there must be something to this to convince so many credible teachers.

I think people do acknowledge it...it's what got my attention, and I assume a good number of others too. When I first began to read what people were saying about "internals" and its relationship to Aikido, I took it as another "what if" to be considered. After tracking the conversations more, I noticed exactly what you described: almost everyone not only enjoyed the effects of the training (perceived an instant applicability), but also the process itself. The negative results I saw posted had more to do with rhetoric style than anything else.
I think part of the difficulty is that there have only been a handful of experts (relatively speaking, at least) even willing to talk about it; supplemental understanding has always been provided by students of those experts. For a long time I only ever saw three names brought up: yours, Mike's, and Akuzawa's. So we (I, at least) only saw a fairly small group of people represented. Now that we have a few more names to consider I think it helps. As time moves on and Aikiweb folks include other groups who are willing to talk about the bits that lend themselves to conversation, I think it will get even better and the cynicism will diminish.
Of course, as has been mentioned plenty of times before, a lot of this stuff is considered a trade secret...which doesn't exactly lend itself to open disussions with strangers, so we're relying on people who are more interested in brining things out into the light. Add to that the fact that you're forced to deal with ignorant and forgetful people like me who ask the same questions, etc., and I can see why many people are reluctant to participate. Human interactions are sloppy enough with like-minded folks, add the diversity of the internet and it can get interesting fast.
So the short answer for me (for the problem of accepting the evidence presented online), again, has to do with accessibility and relatability. The greater our efforts in these reagrds, the more people will open their mind to the "evidence" being presented here.

Howard Popkin
01-10-2013, 02:30 PM
Dan teaches about 12-14 hours per seminar @ $175

At 12 hours = 14.58 per hour
At 14 hours =12.50 per hour

If you don't think one of the best instructors in the world is worth 15 per hour than I'm not sure what you expect in this world. You pay your babysitter much more than that.

Seriously people, as someone who teaches seminars frequently I can tell you that NO ONE takes into account the day to get to the location and the day to get home.

If you factor in that time, there is no profit whatsoever, it is only the pleasure of sharing knowledge with good budo people.

If you aren't interested......DON'T GO.

Howard

Marc Abrams
01-10-2013, 04:16 PM
Dan teaches about 12-14 hours per seminar @ $175

At 12 hours = 14.58 per hour
At 14 hours =12.50 per hour

If you don't think one of the best instructors in the world is worth 15 per hour than I'm not sure what you expect in this world. You pay your babysitter much more than that.

Seriously people, as someone who teaches seminars frequently I can tell you that NO ONE takes into account the day to get to the location and the day to get home.

If you factor in that time, there is no profit whatsoever, it is only the pleasure of sharing knowledge with good budo people.

If you aren't interested......DON'T GO.

Howard

Howie:

The issue of how much someone makes for teaching a seminar had absolutely nothing to do with the initial thread. It arose, like other distractions, when people could not adequately address the thread/issues and simply resorted to attacking the poster in an irrelevant manner. I think that if we can not play into these "side issues" and keep people focused on addressing the issues raised in the thread, then maybe we can engage in serious discussions that can only help all of us improve as marital artists.

Regards,

marc abrams

Gary David
01-10-2013, 05:11 PM
For the record..............

My wife and I prepare gourmet meals and fine drinks for ANY teacher who teaches at my dojo. Simply ask George Ledyard Sensei about how I host teachers..........

Marc Abrams

Marc
I ain't much....but for a gourmet meal and fine drinks I might wonder into your area and teach a class or two.......no charge.......

Not that it is anyones business....Dan stays at our house when he is here.....my wife only demands one thing from the weekend....that we have one private meal with Dan so she gets a chance to talk to him. That says it all for me........

Gary

Eric Winters
01-10-2013, 07:17 PM
I have not trained with Dan yet but I am going to his seminar at Aikido of Diablo Valley this weekend. I do not understand what the big deal about charging for a seminar is. He charges about what everybody else does for more hours of training. Has anybody here priced a seminar for real estate or something like it? I think it is several hundred maybe even thousands of dollars and it it not nearly as fun as the stuff I will be doing this weekend. Maybe people should just drop it and talk about something more useful and interesting. (like martial arts).

Eric

osaya
01-10-2013, 09:29 PM
Hi all, I've been stalking this thread (and other IP/IS threads) for a while and I think I have a grasp on why there is so much conflict abound, and I hope to contribute something to help these threads proceed more smoothly.

Just for reference, a quick background of mine is that I train in aikido and systema, and since being exposed to the idea of IP/IS, I have been hungry to get more info about it for awhile. I still have not met Dan or Mike or Ark, but would really love to. The only IP/IS IHTBF experience I've had before is during a short visit to Jimmy Heow (Sam Chin's cousin who teaches ILC in Malaysia). Needless to say, I was very intrigued, but that obviously did not necessarily help me understand what Dan teaches/does except it provided some sort of vague reference to anchor on to.

Now, back to the online skirmishes--I think I understand where all camps are coming from. For the sake of simplicity, let's call them: 1) "the skeptics", 2) "the pro-IP/IS group", and 3) "the mediators".

When I first read about IP/IS on the forum a few years ago, my 'bullshit alert' came up, and whilst finding it interesting, I had lots of doubts. I remember seeing Dan post quite a lot even back then, and whilst he sounded like he knew 'stuff', his posts sounded very arrogant and dismissive of others. He also made so many incredible claims about his ability and followers that I automatically put him the "probably loud bark, small bite" basket. The way the stuff was presented on the forums come across as some cult-like or multi-level marketing type approach. Coming from a scientific background, I understand the need for evidence and moderating one's claims--things that were apparently sorely lacking from the "pro-IS/IP" camp. To help those who are not naturally skeptical to understand how this group thinks or perceives information, perhaps think of this example:-

Imagine that Bob claims to have discovered the great long-lost youth rejuvenation potion of the Mayan civilization. Bob tells you that 100% of all people that have tried the potion say that it works! Tom and Jane have tried it, and they say it works too! Bob isn't going to tell you what the ingredients are because it's an ancient secret. Everyone who's tried it will attest to you that its real, but we obviously can't prove it to you over the internet. If you want to know more, you can come and pay X amount of dollars to see what the big deal is...

Sounds dodgy? Yup, you bet it does. This is where the skeptics gets stuck. They don't believe it, but the only to prove it wrong is to invest the time and money to test it. (Yes, for you science nerds out there, it's the typical testing the null hypothesis concept.) But in order to invest the time/money to do it, they will need a level of credibility to surpass the minimum threshold to bother testing it. And that's why the skeptics keep badgering the pro-IS/IP camp for "proof".

The pro-IS/IP camp on the other hand HAVE tested it. And they KNOW it works. It's no longer an OPINION or IDEA that it MAY or MAY not work. For someone who has felt it or seen it, they need the proof no longer. It's a huge revelation. It's earth-shattering stuff. Imagine a world where all humans lived underground all their lives and no one has ever seen the sun. One day Bob takes a few people with him up to the surface and see the sun! It's amazing! They tell everyone what they saw, but every one thinks that they are crazy or stupid or both. They try so hard to convince everyone to come and see what they saw, but most find their claims so ridiculous and keep asking for proof, when to them, the only proof possible is to climb up to the surface! It's so extremely frustrating to deal with these ignorant fools isn't it?!

The mediator camp (e.g. Jun) on the other hand just wants these two camps to take a chill pill. They understand that different people perceive and appreciate different things, and wants them to talk about it civilly. It's kinda like watching kids in the playground all claiming that their dads are the best/strongest/smartest, and that everyone else's dad is an idiot. It's like reading forums about which Aikido style is the real/legitimate/kick-ass one--Aikikai? Iwama? Tomiki? Yoshinkan? etc etc.

So to me, I can see where everyone is coming from. I can see the huge misunderstanding that each camp has with the other when they ask questions from their own point of view. It's actually quite frustrating to see how productive discussions gets side-track due to these misunderstandings.

For me, I don't know Dan personally, but I'd REALLLY love to meet/train with him some day. Like I said, I was/am a skeptic--but I've had the luck of knowing at least two very, very senior Aikidoka who have trained with him, who have verified his claims. So for me, it's kinda like I know a few people who have climbed up to the surface with Bob, and they told me they've seen the sun. Is it the 'Truth'? As a skeptic, I can't say for sure--but I can say that for me, my personal minimum threshold of credibility has been met, and I'm willing to find out more directly now rather than wasting my energy demanding for more proof that cannot be found online.

sorry for the rambling. i'll got back to lurking now :o

Demetrio Cereijo
01-11-2013, 04:57 AM
Interesting analogies.

However, I don't completely agree with the parts I've bolded in:

Imagine that Bob claims to have discovered the great long-lost youth rejuvenation potion of the Mayan civilization. Bob tells you that 100% of all people that have tried the potion say that it works! Tom and Jane have tried it, and they say it works too! Bob isn't going to tell you what the ingredients are because it's an ancient secret. Everyone who's tried it will attest to you that its real, but we obviously can't prove it to you over the internet. If you want to know more, you can come and pay X amount of dollars to see what the big deal is...

Sounds dodgy? Yup, you bet it does. This is where the skeptics gets stuck. They don't believe it, but the only to prove it wrong is to invest the time and money to test it


IMO, the minimum threshold of credibility can be surpassed via information provided at distance

The problem lies in if the kind of proof skeptics (like myself) could ask for is going to be provided by the Mayan rejuvenation potion proponents or if they are not going to move from the IHTBF position.

Marc Abrams
01-11-2013, 07:30 AM
Marc
I ain't much....but for a gourmet meal and fine drinks I might wonder into your area and teach a class or two.......no charge.......

Not that it is anyones business....Dan stays at our house when he is here.....my wife only demands one thing from the weekend....that we have one private meal with Dan so she gets a chance to talk to him. That says it all for me........

Gary

Gary:

My door is always open for you :)! Fine food, Fine Drink, Fine Company, Fine Budo..... Now that is LIFE!

Marc Abrams

sorokod
01-11-2013, 08:39 AM
Imagine that Bob claims to have discovered the great long-lost youth rejuvenation potion of the Mayan civilization. Bob tells you that 100% of all people that have tried the potion say that it works! Tom and Jane have tried it, and they say it works too! Bob isn't going to tell you what the ingredients are because it's an ancient secret. Everyone who's tried it will attest to you that its real, but we obviously can't prove it to you over the internet. If you want to know more, you can come and pay X amount of dollars to see what the big deal is...


Just to refine your example, it may be the case (regardless of its effectiveness) that the potion is not of Mayan origin. The question of the potion's provenance is completely unrelated to its efficiency. For example, Jane may say that she feels younger but the fact that the potion doesn't have the typical Mayan taste of maize but rather tastes like Mexican salsa, make her wonder where the recipe actually came from.

One may argue that if the potion works (you just have to feel it!), the provenance makes no difference. That is really a matter of personal opinion, so going back to martial arts, I choose to practice Aikido and if it was to be statistically demonstrated that in most engagements a Karateka beats an Akidoka, I think I would still opt for Aikido.

Regarding the 100%, I have been to one of Dan's seminar and while I saw some interesting things, it is clear that an immense ammount of work and determination has to be invested, preferably in a supportive environment,
to reach the point that is equivalent to "ingesting the potion". This combined with strong personal conviction that the potion is not of Mayan origin contributed to my decision to let it go.

About the money, as I said before, anyone is entitled to charge whatever they feel like for their time and knowledge.

Lee Salzman
01-11-2013, 09:41 AM
Just to refine your example, it may be the case (regardless of its effectiveness) that the potion is not of Mayan origin. The question of the potion's provenance is completely unrelated to its efficiency. For example, Jane may say that she feels younger but the fact that the potion doesn't have the typical Mayan taste of maize but rather tastes like Mexican salsa, make her wonder where the recipe actually came from.

One may argue that if the potion works (you just have to feel it!), the provenance makes no difference. That is really a matter of personal opinion, so going back to martial arts, I choose to practice Aikido and if it was to be statistically demonstrated that in most engagements a Karateka beats an Akidoka, I think I would still opt for Aikido.

Regarding the 100%, I have been to one of Dan's seminar and while I saw some interesting things, it is clear that an immense ammount of work and determination has to be invested, preferably in a supportive environment,
to reach the point that is equivalent to "ingesting the potion". This combined with strong personal conviction that the potion is not of Mayan origin contributed to my decision to let it go.

About the money, as I said before, anyone is entitled to charge whatever they feel like for their time and knowledge.

Wait... what? Funny tasting Mexican salsa? Where did that even come from? This is a bad analogy derived from a bad premise.

Dan has never been anything but 100% clear, both in writing, and in person, about what he is teaching. He states this up front at every workshop where the work he is showing comes from and how he has developed it and why it relates to the things all of us train. Perhaps you missed this part of the workshop?

sorokod
01-11-2013, 10:00 AM
Wait... what? Funny tasting Mexican salsa? Where did that even come from? This is a bad analogy derived from a bad premise.

Dan has never been anything but 100% clear, both in writing, and in person, about what he is teaching. He states this up front at every workshop where the work he is showing comes from and how he has developed it and why it relates to the things all of us train. Perhaps you missed this part of the workshop?

Is it possible that you misunderstood the analogy where `Bob` => `Dan` and `Jane` => `a new potion user`? As to "Funny tasting Mexican salsa", why do you think salsa is "Funny"?

Mert Gambito
01-11-2013, 10:10 AM
I have been to one of Dan's seminar and while I saw some interesting things . . .
David,

I notice you used the word "saw" to describe the manner in which you received first-hand information at Dan's seminar. My apologies ahead of time for asking redundant questions in the event you've already explained in greater detail your experiences at the seminar -- so feel free to reply with (a) link(s) vs. another drawn-out description -- but to what degree did you take ukemi first hand from him, and did you stay for the whole seminar? I ask because there are a handful of people in Hawaii who've met Dan out of curiosity, but just briefly to get a quick glimpse or hands-on sampling to satisfy their curiosity, yet have drawn the same conclusion about its ties to Aikido (i.e. without attending the entire training to fully learn about the theory and how the method, body movements and skills logically integrate into the waza and other fundamentals of Daito-ryu, Aikido and many other arts). However, to my knowledge, there are 0% detractors when it comes to the quality and significance of the skills and power (which I don't see you disputing, based on your experience).

That said . . .

. . . it is clear that an immense ammount of work and determination has to be invested, preferably in a supportive environment,
to reach the point that is equivalent to "ingesting the potion".

I don't think anyone would dispute the representations of the aiki-jujutsu/do stalwarts like Takeda, M. Ueshiba, Sagawa and Horikawa as dojo/gym rats -- in particular regarding the tanren that developed their respective IP/IS. And, it's a credit to Ueshiba that so many aikidoka have worked so hard for decades, regardless of individual interpretations of aiki and its sublime properties, to attain skills and abilities akin to what he had following his example of daily earnest training.

This combined with strong personal conviction that the potion is not of Mayan origin contributed to my decision to let it go.

If you've attended a full seminar, then, though I'm a skeptic of your and others' skepticism :D , I respect your individual conclusion regarding flavor, and personally I'm not in a position to debate that since I'm not an aikidoka (well, outside of IP/IS training anyway) or Aikido historian.

However, regardless of the degree to which you, or anyone else in contemporary Aikido, has had mat time with Dan, how many Aikidoka taking either position regarding this topic have had mat time with Ueshiba as input for their conclusions regarding flavor? As previously mentioned, Meyer Goo, a seminal figure regarding Aikido in Hawaii who trained with Ueshiba while O-Sensei was visiting here, decided to meet Dan this past November. Meyer's original intention was reportedly to just be one of the tire-kickers to whom I referred above -- yet, upon taking ukemi from Dan, decided to attend the entire training, and decisively concluded that Dan's IP/IS are the same flavor as those of Ueshiba. From Meyer's perspective, or from those of folks for whom his perspective matches their own second or further removed conclusions, I'm not sure you can put a price tag on that re-discovery.

Lee Salzman
01-11-2013, 10:10 AM
Is it possible that you misunderstood the analogy where `Bob` => `Dan` and `Jane` => `a new potion user`? As to "Funny tasting Mexican salsa", why do you think salsa is "Funny"?

No, I understood the analogy, and it is just bogus. It does not apply here. To legitimize it would be making a false implication about the character of information being portrayed by a wealth of generous teachers within IMA community, not just Dan.

sorokod
01-11-2013, 10:16 AM
No, I understood the analogy, and it is just bogus. It does not apply here. To legitimize it would be making a false implication about the character of information being portrayed by a wealth of generous teachers within IMA community, not just Dan.

Oh ok. Your issue is probably with the whole potion analogy here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=321825&postcount=287 .

sorokod
01-11-2013, 10:26 AM
David,

I notice you used the word "saw" to describe the manner in which you received first-hand information at Dan's seminar. My apologies ahead of time for asking redundant questions in the event you've already explained in greater detail your experiences at the seminar -- so feel free to reply with (a) link(s) vs. another drawn-out description -- but to what degree did you take ukemi first hand from him, and did you stay for the whole seminar? I ask because there are a handful of people in Hawaii who've met Dan out of curiosity, but just briefly to get a quick glimpse or hands-on sampling to satisfy their curiosity, yet have drawn the same conclusion about its ties to Aikido (i.e. without attending the entire training to fully learn about the theory and how the method, body movements and skills logically integrate into the waza and other fundamentals of Daito-ryu, Aikido and many other arts). However, to my knowledge, there are 0% detractors when it comes to the quality and significance of the skills and power (which I don't see you disputing, based on your experience).

That said . . .

I don't think anyone would dispute the representations of the aiki-jujutsu/do stalwarts like Takeda, M. Ueshiba, Sagawa and Horikawa as dojo/gym rats -- in particular regarding the tanren that developed their respective IP/IS. And, it's a credit to Ueshiba that so many aikidoka have worked so hard for decades, regardless of individual interpretations of aiki and its sublime properties, to attain skills and abilities akin to what he had following his example of daily earnest training.

If you've attended a full seminar, then, though I'm a skeptic of your and others' skepticism :D , I respect your individual conclusion regarding flavor, and personally I'm not in a position to debate that since I'm not an aikidoka (well, outside of IP/IS training anyway) or Aikido historian.

However, regardless of the degree to which you, or anyone else in contemporary Aikido, has had mat time with Dan, how many Aikidoka taking either position regarding this topic have had mat time with Ueshiba as input for their conclusions regarding flavor? As previously mentioned, Meyer Goo, a seminal figure regarding Aikido in Hawaii who trained with Ueshiba while O-Sensei was visiting here, decided to meet Dan this past November. Meyer's original intention was reportedly to just be one of the tire-kickers to whom I referred above -- yet, upon taking ukemi from Dan, decided to attend the entire training, and decisively concluded that Dan's IP/IS are the same flavor as those of Ueshiba. From Meyer's perspective, I'm not sure you can put a price tag on that re-discovery.

Hello Mert, I attended the full seminar, Saturday ans Sunday, plus the bit on Friday afternoon.

phitruong
01-11-2013, 11:47 AM
there are also folks who went but had hard time linking of what they saw to their practices. take the ASU folks, for example. Ikeda sensei had shown the IP/IS stuffs for many years, but most folks either couldn't understand it or think it's not achievable so after the seminar(s), they went back and did what they have always done before. so here is the definition of insanity "do the same thing, expect different results".

of course, we also have skeptics who looked at the stuffs and said "that's not my cup of tea or coffee or beer (although i don't know of folks who drink beer out of a cup)". and that's ok too. hey, potato, potatoe, ...

then you have skeptics, who said, all of your 6-dan, 5-dan, oodle-dan teachers that had converted to dan's religion (dan should get a priestly robe with glowing lights and so on, and don't forget beautiful women acolytes) got brain-washed and all their years of experience meant nothing, which meant their approval meant nothing. and since their experience and knowledge are better, they should remain skeptical until dan and other IP teachers can crawl through their doors to prove it to them. to which dan and others said "you are kidding me, right?!!!"

as far as money goes, i think dan and other IP/IS teachers are making money hand over fist or is that fist over hand or fist over fist or one of them over the other. they are living the good life while us, working stiffs, have to work our asses off on these damn solo exercises, with no ending in sight and no fame and fortune, but only with our cup of tea/coffee/liquor of choice to nurse our bruising ego! :D

Gary David
01-11-2013, 11:48 AM
Hello Mert, I attended the full seminar, Saturday ans Sunday, plus the bit on Friday afternoon.

David
So your issues are it can't be trace directly to Ueshiba and it takes to long to become effective? Not that it isn't effective..........? Am I missing something?

Gary

DH
01-11-2013, 12:28 PM
Hello Mert, I attended the full seminar, Saturday ans Sunday, plus the bit on Friday afternoon.

Hi David
I think you made your point clearly. What he said guys is essentially he thought the material was good but he wasn't satisfied that it was of the same things he was looking for in his Aikido.
I never dispute that with folds...after...we meet. I'm not trying to be all things to all men.
We can debate all day that the things I teach are or are not, what Ueshiba was doing. I clearly disagree with David....but for me that goes right back to the title of the thread...
Vantage points
From where I sit and what I know, it's obvious, but only 99% of people who see it presented agree.
What's wrong with that?

Several shihan, while agreeing this is an absolute essential to Aikido, also think Aikido is more than JUST this.
What's wrong with that?
Dan

DH
01-11-2013, 12:42 PM
And thanks David.
Finally!!!!
That's what I was looking for with this thread. Positive and negative and a discussion of real experiences. Would you care to add any thoughts as to why the material I presented would not be useful to you in your pursuit of Aikido?
Dan
Edit:
And FWIW, David was a sceptic who bothered to actually show up!! We had fun, he remains a bit skeptical. I won't forget the fact that he showed up.

Chris Knight
01-11-2013, 05:19 PM
in my eyes the problem here is that a lot of people cant quite get their head around the fact that these skills have been passed down to a westener whos quiet and quite reserved 8-)

these skills just dont seem to be associated with the west so can quite easily be disregarded over the net.

however, its quite obvious upon meeting the 10000 plus hours that dan has dedicated his life to can be immediately felt.

to a novice like me, its irrelevant as ill never reach the heights that i endeavour to but for the truly dedicated who can invest in the program full time - takedas aiki will begin to materialise, over the years.

this isnt widely comnunicated material which is becoming obvious as the arguements blaze on - but i would be all ears if i didnt want to miss the budo bus

osaya
01-11-2013, 06:04 PM
No, I understood the analogy, and it is just bogus. It does not apply here. To legitimize it would be making a false implication about the character of information being portrayed by a wealth of generous teachers within IMA community, not just Dan.

Oh ok. Your issue is probably with the whole potion analogy here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=321825&postcount=287 .

Hi guys, a quick clarification just in case my post has been taken the wrong way by anyone. I did not mean to imply that Dan--or any other teacher--is selling bogus potions. The analogies were meant to help demonstrate what it looks like to the other side, i.e. as per the thread title, 'vantage points'. Hopefully when we understand where the other side comes from, we can then tailor our responses to address their concerns rather than preaching to our respective choirs.

phitruong
01-11-2013, 06:09 PM
in my eyes the problem here is that a lot of people cant quite get their head around the fact that these skills have been passed down to a westener whos quiet and quite reserved 8-)

these skills just dont seem to be associated with the west so can quite easily be disregarded over the net.


the problem with dan and sigman and folks like them is that they aren't asian, so folks just instantly assumed that they know nothing and whatever they knew is junk. they just don't have the asian look or even the asian sounding names. i, on the other hand, the other one, the one that's not use to scratch meself, am asian, looked asian (i better be, otherwise i am going to have a talk with the milk man) which is good looking by default, sounded asian (with Minnesotian accent), and with asian name, so folks assumed, rightly so, that i have the right stuffs. folks would believe whatever i tell them about martial arts and so on. they also believed in free egg rolls with extra order of fried rice too.

the way to solve this problem for dan, sigman and other western folks, is that they can pay me a fee (pun intended) to have me adopt them as distance relatives, where they can state that they have been taught the ancient asian secret ingredient of aiki soup from the steppe of asia (actually, mostly north carolina foothill, but they don't know that!) that can turn practitioner into super aiki-dunot martial artists. for a monthly fee of $9.99 with 20 easy installments, you can get an authentic certificate that state that you are in-fact asian and in-fact received ancient asian teaching. and for an extra $9.99, i can even give you an asian family name that you can freely use anytime, anywhere. :D

Howard Popkin
01-11-2013, 06:53 PM
the problem with dan and sigman and folks like them is that they aren't asian, so folks just instantly assumed that they know nothing and whatever they knew is junk. they just don't have the asian look or even the asian sounding names. i, on the other hand, the other one, the one that's not use to scratch meself, am asian, looked asian (i better be, otherwise i am going to have a talk with the milk man) which is good looking by default, sounded asian (with Minnesotian accent), and with asian name, so folks assumed, rightly so, that i have the right stuffs. folks would believe whatever i tell them about martial arts and so on. they also believed in free egg rolls with extra order of fried rice too.

the way to solve this problem for dan, sigman and other western folks, is that they can pay me a fee (pun intended) to have me adopt them as distance relatives, where they can state that they have been taught the ancient asian secret ingredient of aiki soup from the steppe of asia (actually, mostly north carolina foothill, but they don't know that!) that can turn practitioner into super aiki-dunot martial artists. for a monthly fee of $9.99 with 20 easy installments, you can get an authentic certificate that state that you are in-fact asian and in-fact received ancient asian teaching. and for an extra $9.99, i can even give you an asian family name that you can freely use anytime, anywhere. :D

Too late Phi, my brother married a Philipino.....so that makes me the uncle to identical twin, half Philipino Jews.....I have it all covered....:)

Joe calls them Philijewnos :)

Janet Rosen
01-11-2013, 07:24 PM
the way to solve this problem for dan, sigman and other western folks, is that they can pay me a fee (pun intended) to have me adopt them as distance relatives :D

Fee, Phi? Faux! Fum(ing)..... :D

Cady Goldfield
01-11-2013, 07:40 PM
to a novice like me, its irrelevant as ill never reach the heights that i endeavour to but for the truly dedicated who can invest in the program full time - takedas aiki will begin to materialise, over the years.


Invest in the program full time? That sounds like a career! :) Who among us can afford to live like Sagawa, or has the eccentric drive of Takeda (not to mention the wife to manage all the logistical details of running a household while he was out and about)? Unless you are saying that you have no intentions of solo training even just a little bit each day, then you will develop tangible and applicable skills long before you are old and gray. A little at a time, with consistency, and you start to notice the incremental growth and changes in your body. You start realizing that you can "do things" that most others can't, and it keeps advancing from there.

It's not about how many hours it takes before you reach a certain level or surpass another's skills, it's about the process and what it all means for you. Not everyone has to be obsessively driven to attain genuine skills; it just has to be something you love enough to continue to pursue it, and then one day you look back and see how far you've come just for doing something you enjoy.

Heck, even Takeda said that aiki is easy to learn, and that it could be taught to women and children. You should take that as a challenge! :D

Lee Salzman
01-12-2013, 04:41 AM
Hi guys, a quick clarification just in case my post has been taken the wrong way by anyone. I did not mean to imply that Dan--or any other teacher--is selling bogus potions. The analogies were meant to help demonstrate what it looks like to the other side, i.e. as per the thread title, 'vantage points'. Hopefully when we understand where the other side comes from, we can then tailor our responses to address their concerns rather than preaching to our respective choirs.

I would also like to clarify that I took no issue with your original analogy. It was merely when the analogy was stretched and lost its tenuous grasp on reality that it became an issue, i.e. " the potion doesn't have the typical Mayan taste of maize but rather tastes like Mexican salsa" and "strong personal conviction that the potion is not of Mayan origin". Taken within the analogy of "Imagine that Bob claims to have discovered the great long-lost youth rejuvenation potion of the Mayan civilization"...

We may disagree about the relevance of the skills. That is fine. We may disagree about whether or not they represent Morihei Ueshiba's training. That is fine. We may even agree the salesmanship tactics are a bit brash. A change in tone is certainly overdue. But, there is no fraud or bait-and-switch going on here. The work is what it says on the tin - power that is internally driven - that comes from the lineages any of the teachers in question will tell you if asked.

Well, okay, upon further looking at it, there is one issue I will take with your original analogy - "If you want to know more, you can come and pay X amount of dollars to see what the big deal is... " juxtaposed with "But in order to invest the time/money to do it, they will need a level of credibility to surpass the minimum threshold to bother testing it. And that's why the skeptics keep badgering the pro-IS/IP camp for "proof"."

I think it may be overlooked that there are now groups of students worldwide training in all these things, and if for some reason the teacher is inaccessible to you, and if you're not expecting much out of works in progress (keeping in mind our own inside joke of "we suck"), you can go in and see the character of the work we're doing. Many of us will be happy to show-and-tell with like minds about what we're doing! No, we will not impress you, but I doubt any of us would turn you away either. Just don't set your bar too high, unless you're actually meeting with the high bar. :D The discussion seems to focus so much on one or two particular giant trees that the forest has dropped out of sight...

Ernesto Lemke
01-12-2013, 06:21 AM
The discussion seems to focus so much on one or two particular giant trees that the forest has dropped out of sight...

+1

Gary David
01-12-2013, 09:31 AM
Folks
As an analogy for me I look at the body this way.....helps me think about how to get this to work........ the body is like a complex set of gears...spur gears, helical gears, herringbone gears, internal gears, rack gears, bevel gears for right or left angle shafts like straight, helical, zerol, spiral, hypoid, screw, worm, crown and face gears. Gears in all sizes.....

For maximum efficiency for any given tasks the right gears need to be engaged and working together........ most of us never do that or get that that is needed.

To me the dantien is like a giant flywheel.....it focuses what is coming in linked through the gearing and distributes it back out through the gearing when working together. It's very movement maintains, adds to and generates power....

An example of a break in the process is tension in the shoulders .....it disengages the shoulder/elbow.arms/hands from the dantien and connected gears.....it as a smaller sub-assembly works alone....

The practice is how to bring or engage more of the body (individual gears) in to the set to collect more of the body when engaging.......

See it anyway you want...this is what helps me.....

To me Dan is one of the Gear Masters out there.....

Gary

Mert Gambito
01-12-2013, 10:20 AM
Hello Mert, I attended the full seminar, Saturday ans Sunday, plus the bit on Friday afternoon.

Thanks for the clarification David. Fair enough.

Too late Phi, my brother married a Philipino.....so that makes me the uncle to identical twin, half Philipino Jews.....I have it all covered....

Kosher lumpia?? This is more of a snipe hunt than IP/IS.

The practice is how to bring or engage more of the body (individual gears) in to the set to collect more of the body when engaging.......

An example of a break in the process is tension in the shoulders .....it disengages the shoulder/elbow.arms/hands from the dantien and connected gears.....it as a smaller sub-assembly works alone....

See it anyway you want...this is what helps me.....

It is soooo like learning to drive stick shift within one's own body!

Gary David
01-12-2013, 11:34 AM
Folks
As an analogy for me I look at the body this way.....helps me think about how to get this to work........ the body is like a complex set of gears...spur gears, helical gears, herringbone gears, internal gears, rack gears, bevel gears for right or left angle shafts like straight, helical, zerol, spiral, hypoid, screw, worm, crown and face gears. Gears in all sizes.....

For maximum efficiency for any given tasks the right gears need to be engaged and working together........ most of us never do that or get that that is needed.

To me the dantien is like a giant flywheel.....it focuses what is coming in linked through the gearing and distributes it back out through the gearing when working together. It's very movement maintains, adds to and generates power....

An example of a break in the process is tension in the shoulders .....it disengages the shoulder/elbow.arms/hands from the dantien and connected gears.....it as a smaller sub-assembly works alone....

The practice is how to bring or engage more of the body (individual gears) in to the set to collect more of the body when engaging.......

See it anyway you want...this is what helps me.....

To me Dan is one of the Gear Masters out there.....

Gary

Add pulleys and levers....we are complex machines...to the image....at least I do.....
Gary

Bernd Lehnen
01-12-2013, 01:25 PM
Hello Cady,
Reading here for a couple of years as a guest, I've always found your contributions refreshing and inspiring.


It's not about how many hours it takes before you reach a certain level or surpass another's skills, it's about the process and what it all means for you. Not everyone has to be obsessively driven to attain genuine skills; it just has to be something you love enough to continue to pursue it, and then one day you look back and see how far you've come just for doing something you enjoy.


The seed of Aiki has to be put into our body (Kimura Tatsuo, somewhere in his writings). This is the first step. But then, it begins to grow, depending on how good the ground is.

If we culture it like in a hothouse, then the results will probably be like a hothouse plant, i.e. in many cases good looking, with all the outer attributes for excellent marketing but may be tasteless and the first slight breeze might blow it away.
So, IMO it's also a question of reaching for good balance in every sense to get real positive results or else, if I were a crazy guy , I'd probably remain a crazy guy but now with crazy Aiki..

Take care
Bernd

Cady Goldfield
01-12-2013, 05:16 PM
Hi Bernd,
Oh, absolutely there must be a balance between solo training and application... under increasing duress and pressure to "temper" your skills. It is a part of process to which I was referring.

My point was that we can have a well-balanced life -- not a single-minded one -- and still gain skills and excellence in a discipline that we love enough to dedicate at least a small part of our day to improving. And, it does not take that long to start seeing incremental results.
I got the impression from Chris K. that he felt that such a thing was beyond him because he could not dedicate his life... the "10,000 hours" at least ... to developing the "unusual power" of IP and aiki. I am only saying that this is simply not the case.

And, if one can accomplish even "just" this, it is not a huge stretch of the imagination to consider the possibility that the skills of Ueshiba are not some mythic power beyond the ken or reach of others in our generation.

Chris Knight
01-13-2013, 03:30 PM
Invest in the program full time? That sounds like a career! Who among us can afford to live like Sagawa, or has the eccentric drive of Takeda (not to mention the wife to manage all the logistical details of running a household while he was out and about)? Unless you are saying that you have no intentions of solo training even just a little bit each day, then you will develop tangible and applicable skills long before you are old and gray. A little at a time, with consistency, and you start to notice the incremental growth and changes in your body. You start realizing that you can "do things" that most others can't, and it keeps advancing from there.

It's not about how many hours it takes before you reach a certain level or surpass another's skills, it's about the process and what it all means for you. Not everyone has to be obsessively driven to attain genuine skills; it just has to be something you love enough to continue to pursue it, and then one day you look back and see how far you've come just for doing something you enjoy.

Heck, even Takeda said that aiki is easy to learn, and that it could be taught to women and children. You should take that as a challenge!

Hi Cady, hope you are well, long time no speak :)

I probably didn't word that right. To get to an IP proponents level, as a body skill separate to any form etc in my eyes would take more than my current half an hour a day, in anyone's book. To get really proficient at this stuff, you need constant corrective support, at least 1 training partner and a few hours of daily training. I can notice the difference after training daily for 3-4 months etc, but I've had a few family emergencies recently and therefore having stopped for a couple of weeks, it feels like you've lost everything you started to develop in your body. In my eyes, it's a constant practice in whatever we're doing in our daily lives, which for some can probably be too much of an effort, balancing daily life etc.

Ps I feel old and I'm definately already going grey - 50 shades

phitruong
01-14-2013, 08:09 AM
I probably didn't word that right. To get to an IP proponents level, as a body skill separate to any form etc in my eyes would take more than my current half an hour a day, in anyone's book. To get really proficient at this stuff, you need constant corrective support, at least 1 training partner and a few hours of daily training. I can notice the difference after training daily for 3-4 months etc, but I've had a few family emergencies recently and therefore having stopped for a couple of weeks, it feels like you've lost everything you started to develop in your body. In my eyes, it's a constant practice in whatever we're doing in our daily lives, which for some can probably be too much of an effort, balancing daily life etc.


Chris, it depends on how you structure your practice. if you wait fro the right time of the day or a particular schedule of practice, then it's hard to make a great deal of progress. however, if you make practice part of your daily life movement, then you will be practice all the time (except for when you are in those intimate moments with the missus, you really don't want to do any of these funky stuffs; otherwise, she might think you are into some kinky karma sutra stuffs, which might not be a bad thing). take for example, bring the ground to everything you do: picking up tooth brush, picking up spoon/fork/knife, picking up your child, bag of grocery, and so on. stretch your imagination a bit and you will find that you can practice all the time. it's a "do" right, the way of life, yes? where i live, most folks don't care or interest in these stuffs, so i just practiced by myself. i got ideas from various IP folks and tried to work out the problem for myself. sometimes things worked, sometimes, not so. but it keeps thing interesting; otherwise, i would be bore out of my skull and start to post strange comments on aikiweb. oh wait, i already do that! nevermind! :)

you already know the what. now you just need to figure the how that works for you. of course the why is important too, but mostly the Y has more leotard women than we realized.

osaya
01-16-2013, 02:03 AM
I would also like to clarify that I took no issue with your original analogy. It was merely when the analogy was stretched and lost its tenuous grasp on reality that it became an issue, i.e. " the potion doesn't have the typical Mayan taste of maize but rather tastes like Mexican salsa" and "strong personal conviction that the potion is not of Mayan origin". Taken within the analogy of "Imagine that Bob claims to have discovered the great long-lost youth rejuvenation potion of the Mayan civilization"...

LOL. Looks I wasn't the only person thinking about potions, elixirs and brews. Check out Ellis Amdur's recent article on Aikido and Internal Training (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22175):

But what if you desire the vintage itself? And what if you desire exactly what Ueshiba was brewing? What he distilled is among the most rare—an elixir brewed from a mixture of wildflowers from the Japanese Alps and blue-haloed mushrooms. It's an acquired taste, like peat smoked Scotch from Islay, or Dutch corenwyn pulled from a block of ice and poured from a stone crock. To make matters more difficult, the bottle into which Ueshiba's vintage has been placed is hard to pour and takes a long time to fill a glass. Still worse, there are only a few people left who even know how to pull the cork, because Ueshiba didn't share exactly how to do so with very many. He just uncorked it himself, each bottle a little different than the one before, and drank a full draught every day, leaving a little in the cup that his guests might choose to sip or not. If they -- or you -- simply want to enjoy the play of light through the glass, tinted by that marvelous brew, then that, too, can be a lifetime's worth. But if it's the vintage you want, I hope I've given you a few hints on how to find it.

How about something else? There are numerous other vintages, brandies of various character and depth—and there are even some remarkable home-brewers appearing these days, who have cut what may be time-worn, but unessential procedures, and are offering remarkable tastes of their own. You can go to such teachers, and acquire, in full measure, that liquid sun, and if you choose, take it back and pour it within the vessel of aikido that you so love. It will not be Ueshiba's aikido. But it will be yours.

CitoMaramba
01-16-2013, 04:38 AM
Too late Phi, my brother married a Philipino.....so that makes me the uncle to identical twin, half Philipino Jews.....I have it all covered....:)

Joe calls them Philijewnos :)

My uncle and my cousin are married to Jews... I've got Fili-Jewno cousins too!

Bernd Lehnen
01-16-2013, 09:44 AM
Check out Ellis Amdur's recent article on Aikido and Internal Training (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22175):

A wonderful read. It certainly sums up experiences many of us who have lived with aikido for a lengthy time of our lives in search for the underlying core, each of us for his own part, might attest to, perhaps not so thoroughly and not to this extent of personal rigorousness, but nevertheless.

After we'd been introduced to the real thing, we shouldn't forget this:
The truth is, were one to become well-trained in this manner, one could easily -- and respectfully -- enter any aikido dojo on the planet, and never even reveal -- unless you chose -- that you could stop the other person's technique (as one friend teases me, "Aiki Superman, eh? Replicating Ueshiba's Aiki-Avatar role!!"). Even so, you could train with them, without disturbing practice -- unless you chose -- and yet further enhance your ability at aiki, because taking good ukemi via receiving and fitting in appropriately can be a fantastic training for aiki.[xxxv] Remember my quotation of Ueshiba Morihei from 1921: "Aiki is a means of achieving harmony with another person so that you can make them do what you want." What a marvelous practice of aiki, therefore, that I have just proposed! You will be training in ostensibly classic aikido, and your training partners will be helping you develop your aiki skills, all the while unawares.

You will be part of the community and yet beyond it. There may be something lonely about this, perhaps like an opera singer who can never sing arias outside his or her own home, because his country music loving neighbors think he sounds like a dying cat - or, on the other hand, a wonderful singer of country music in an Italian neighborhood. But this loneliness is, frankly, part of the dues you've got to pay if you choose to remain within the aikido community and do so tactfully as well. Until you have developed truly superlative skills in aiki, you will have nothing to brag about anyway. Why be a missionary for something you cannot manifest?

At your own dojo, or with those one or two training partners, you will be able take your training to further and further limits, practicing, if you will, a version of pre-war/post-war aikido: the best of both worlds. It is quite possible at some future date, you will step out on your own, leaving behind an aikido that is no longer part of your world. I expect that there will then be a more extensive community, however small, waiting. But if you desire it to be an aikido community, treat all who are part of the aikido legacy, and all who chose to participate within it, with respect while you do your homework.


Then we might decide.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-16-2013, 10:58 AM
Check out Ellis Amdur's recent article on Aikido and Internal Training (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22175):

His book (HIPS) should be mandatory reading.

Stephen Nichol
02-28-2013, 06:58 PM
"Unfortunately no one can be told what IP/IS/AIKI is. You have to see it for yourself."

- Morpheus... er wait no :p ... just those who have felt it.

I am a little late to this party but I feel the need to say some things that have been on my mind a lot since discovering Aikiweb and this particular discussion. Long post, I tend go over some points repeatedly but I am a little 'fixated' on this all right now. My apologies in advance.

I think that the number of "views" a thread has had is a better measure of how controversial and/or active a thread is rather than how positive or negative that topic may be.

-- Jun

My Vantage point:

The number of views of these IP/IS 'is your Aiki the same as my Aiki' threads could be for people like myself. I come back to this thread and all the others like it with Dan's posts because I am trying desperately to mine little bits of gold from them because of posts like this are exactly like me: Am I missing something in my study / training of Aikido:

... I had read hundreds of posts by him and others. It made me curious, but I had no idea how to start doing this myself. Or how it really worked. Even if there are some quite detailed explanations available in written form. And I was actually worried that if I actually did something, I'd end up spending a lot of time going in the wrong direction.

My current studies through what is known/called Iwama Ryu (though we just call it Aikido) is very specific on it not being 'mystical Ki' that flies out of your mind/hara/finger tips and your partner flies through the air without you laying a had on them. Nor does it allow or encourage 'noodle' arms either. Without going into to much about specifics, we are told, shown, demonstrated to that it is about the correct 'angles/lines' and creating the imbalance in your partner so that no real muscle is required to 'effect' the technique OR 'allow the technique to complete itself'. (Like gravity does the rest for you, not psychic energy or self induced hypnotism on your partners behalf.)

Last year I attended Bill Gleason Sensei's Easter Seminar in Canberra as I happen to fortunate enough to live there. I went as I was told that it would be a good chance to see similar (same?) stuff to what Dan talks about. I have to say I enjoyed it and I could not help but notice that it was not so different from what I was already being taught from my own teacher. I found this encouraging as I do get concerned about 'wasting my time by going down the wrong path.'

I am looking forward to attending it again this year in hopes of getting a better reference point as to what is being discussed here and what I am currently studying as I have had another year to absorb more of what my teacher is trying teach us.

This is me simply trying to find the closet connection to Dan to get some verification of my hopes that my current studies and path is close/similar and I am not wasting my time. Only in so much that I do believe in what Dan and others here talk about in regards accessing unusual power (not sure if this means more than usual) and being able to perform it while practicing Aikido.

... Trying to learn anything about this without direct exposure to someone who knows it is, IMHO, not possible. If you do go to a seminar with Dan, however, you will be greatly rewarded. Not a single day has passed since last April without me thinking of this stuff and trying to figure out how it works both mentally and physically.

And now, the discussions here and elsewhere, and Dan's statements, make perfect sense. I still suck at it, but at least I know why and can discuss it :D

This is exactly how I feel. Without direct exposure you will not truly understand or know. However I honestly have lost sleep over wondering about this. How can I get the exposure? Directly from Dan when:

1. He does not / can not come to Australia.
2. Traveling to Hawaii has already been talked about with my wife and she is fine with it however I am find it hard to justify the expense for a 2 and half day seminar over a weekend. Especially considering #3 and #4 below:
3. It seems he is selective about who is able to attend his seminars and I get the feeling I am not ranked nearly high enough to even qualify for the waiting list.
4. From the concept that 'This (IP/IS) is missing in most of the modern Aikido (as defined by a few to be the current Doshu's) and within my own study I can see that what we call basics is missing from a lot of 'modern / mainstream' Aikido. (I know as I once trained in it a long time ago but I have to accept that as just an isolated aspect as it was only my experience and perhaps only my teacher at that time.)

So again, I am not sure how much of what Dan and others like him have that is missing from what I am getting from my teacher(s) as the Aikido we practice is not like 'mainstream/modern/whatever you want to label it as' but I still want to go and feel and find out, rather eagerly, sincerely to learn as much as I can about what is out there.

@Nathan, and others in the same boat, I have all kinds of sympathy for you and none at all.

All kinds of sympathy, because I know how frustrating it is to be told you have to put hands on and you can't (yet).

None at all, because there has never been a time in the history of budo when it's been so easy to get ahold of this stuff. O-Sensei searched his whole early life for it, and when he finally found it on a godforsaken frozen island in north Japan he abandoned his wife and children for months to make a start on acquiring it. Others left the US and lived in Japan for years, studying diligently, only to have their own teachers say that they never taught the good stuff to them. We are living in the days of wine and roses, by comparison.

And IHTBF isn't a one-time thing, either. I recently got back from a IS/IP seminar with a whole new understanding of the most basic exercise and how it relates to my Aikido practice. And then someone made a comment about the Asahi News video and suddenly I could see the same insight operating in O-Sensei's movement.

Partly this is because I'm a little dense. But partly it's because insights come in layers, and when you've progressed enough to be ready for them. So you have to keep going back to the stream, because the water you drink from it is never the same.

Hugh,

I wanted to say that your earlier post on page 3 of this thread that summed up the general views and points of discussion was well thought out and summed things up generally very well. That being said, the one I quoted above made me feel a little disappointed because it may be easier than ever to get your hands on 'this stuff' now with teachers like Dan and your Sensei, Bill Gleason, but even for me, short of the seminar Gleason Sensei has in Australia, I have to be almost like those you mention who leave their homes and wives behind to go find out about 'this stuff'.

Part of me deeply aches to go find out, directly from Dan. You may have some idea what I mean when I say that. I have honestly lost sleep over it, been distracted at work over it (writing this post instead of working right now over it.) Talk my wife' ear off about it :o , recommend Gleason Sensei's upcoming seminar in Canberra over this Easter to my Sensei and fellow students which she supports as is trying to arrange to come to. This is how passionate I am about finding out if we are in fact missing something.. and if so, start learning it and incorporating it with our training. The reason it is so deep a desire for me is because of the points already mentioned here by others and myself:

I believe my current studies are not too far off as I do not engage in "simple evasion, 'generic blending' and certainly not 'noodle arms' "as mentioned in one post some where in this thread or else where on the forum.

We are shown a kind of relaxed 'extension' that is coordinated with full body movement and structure consisting of: Alignment of the feet in the proper hanmi, the proper alignment of the hips, bending of the legs (not to much so no muscle actually engages so it does not get warm/tired.) alignment of the shoulders (relating to the hips) and through to the elbows and finally the fore arms and hands.

However all essential 'mechanics' of the body aside: I am still deeply curious because I read Dan's posts and more importantly, people from this forum who train with him and report back about:

1. Unusual power (I read as more than normally possible with proficiency is mechanical technique alone)
2. Demonstration of shifting the partners balance with little to no external movement. Done by a means of controlling your internal structure/centre/:stuff: (What is this I don't even...)
3. No inch punch.
4. A few other such things that basically lead my imagination to one tying your internal organs into some kind of rubber band sling shot to generate 'power' not requiring your feet to be on the ground. :freaky:
5. Solo exercises that one can do to develop this. (This I am certain I do not really have a starting point.)

So while I am happy enough with my studies in Aikido as we work with resistance and have to make things work from static beginnings and 'find the angles and lines' and slowly work our way up to basic movement or 'flowing' versions I still believe there is more to it than this.

That is why I when I read Dan's posts and those who were skeptics on this forum years ago who have gone and met Dan and found out first hand, come back here and post how it changed the way they want to train now. I have to know for myself. Was their training before similar to my own? If yes, then wow, what does he have?

There is this 'Before Dan and After Dan' aspect here and I desperately want to know what lies beyond the correct mechanical execution of a technique.

What happens 'inside' that is more than simple body movement through proper alignment etc..

Are there any IP people in Australia, perhaps in the CMA community that Dan may know through people he has trained etc.. that I could seek out (logistics allowing) that could show me the same thing Dan is showing? Who and where can I learn the solo exercises from?

Yes you can bet I hope to get some answer from Gleason Sensei at the end of this month. ;)

Chris Li
02-28-2013, 07:12 PM
Hi Stephen,

There's been talk of getting Dan down to Australia, so you never know.

After 10 years of talking to Dan on the internet (and thirty years in Aikido) a friend of mine and I committed to bringing him out here - fortunately we found other people to split the cost, but we had already decided to split the costs even if there were just the two of us. Sometimes you just have to take the plunge.

Of course, Hawaii is always great - don't worry too much about the screening, it really only applies to a few people who have a history with Dan, and it has nothing to do with rank or experience.

Best,

Chris

Stephen Nichol
02-28-2013, 07:32 PM
Hi Stephen,

There's been talk of getting Dan down to Australia, so you never know.

After 10 years of talking to Dan on the internet (and thirty years in Aikido) a friend of mine and I committed to bringing him out here - fortunately we found other people to split the cost, but we had already decided to split the costs even if there were just the two of us. Sometimes you just have to take the plunge.

Of course, Hawaii is always great - don't worry too much about the screening, it really only applies to a few people who have a history with Dan, and it has nothing to do with rank or experience.

Best,

Chris

That sounds really great. I can budget/afford a more than reasonable amount to do this... it is only that I would really wish it to be more than just a weekend in Hawaii. I know that is asking a lot considering a weekends worth will most likely melt my brain but being a zombie is a sacrifice I am willing to make to just finally find out. :D

To be honest, given the limited frequency of be able to possibly get training with Dan given logistics etc, I would love around 5 days worth. Take that home and work on it for 6 months, then make the effort to go wherever he is and get corrections, more direction etc.. rinse/repeat. I sincerely want to know and then help bring it into Aikido as best I can.

Thanks for clearing up the screening aspect as well. Anyway, this is all a wish for now as I will have to line more than just a few things up to make meeting Dan happen.

I should probably get some work done today. Will check this thread later on tonight.

Thanks again!

Mert Gambito
03-01-2013, 09:19 AM
That sounds really great. I can budget/afford a more than reasonable amount to do this... it is only that I would really wish it to be more than just a weekend in Hawaii. I know that is asking a lot considering a weekends worth will most likely melt my brain but being a zombie is a sacrifice I am willing to make to just finally find out. :D
You can attend both workshops, scheduled on back-to-back weekends on Oahu then the Big Island.

Stephen Nichol
03-01-2013, 10:56 AM
You can attend both workshops, scheduled on back-to-back weekends on Oahu then the Big Island.

This is something I would happily do. I have never been to Hawaii so I may get 'distracted' :p between workshops and not get as much practice in as I could. Looking forward to it! :D

phitruong
03-01-2013, 12:26 PM
This is something I would happily do. I have never been to Hawaii so I may get 'distracted' :p between workshops and not get as much practice in as I could. Looking forward to it! :D

i believed the standard dress code for IP/IS workshop in hawaii is red thongs. it helped with ki distribution throughout your body. :D

Mert Gambito
03-02-2013, 10:49 AM
i believed the standard dress code for IP/IS workshop in hawaii is red thongs. it helped with ki distribution throughout your body. :D

Hmmmm. Good call. It's a shame to keep someone's Bubbling Wells encased in a shoe. These slippas mo betta in Hawaii:

http://www.hellokittyjunkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/405_red_polka_dots_hello_kitty_flip_flops_target.jpg

hughrbeyer
03-02-2013, 10:00 PM
Dude. I don't think that's the kind of thong Phi had in mind. :crazy:

Janet Rosen
03-02-2013, 11:49 PM
I am shuddering at the thought of Phi in a Hello Kitty red thong....

Mert Gambito
03-03-2013, 11:24 AM
I am shuddering at the thought of Phi in a Hello Kitty red thong....

It's OK. He can come to Hawaii and accessorize so he has a complete proper wardrobe (Hello Kitty, and all things Sanrio, are quite popular in Hawaii).

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4112/5210517117_8e2da01286_z.jpg

Hugh -- I double checked:

i believed the standard dress code for IP/IS workshop in hawaii is red thongs. it helped with ki distribution throughout your body. :D

Yup, he stated "thongs", plural. :)

hughrbeyer
03-03-2013, 12:01 PM
The islands are safe again.

phitruong
03-04-2013, 12:35 PM
Yup, he stated "thongs", plural. :)

of course it's plural. have you learned nothing in way of yin yang, in yo, aiki and whatnot? you need at least two: one represents yin, the other, yang. one with pokadots and the other with zebra stripes. one for day time activies and one for the evening stroll along moonlit sandy beach. sometimes you have two wear both because at the extreme yin, it becomes yang, and vice versa. i don't know why you guys bother learning IP/IS when you can't even manage such simple concept! :D

woudew
03-04-2013, 02:14 PM
I feel a movie coming up:

"The life of Phi".

R H
04-12-2013, 02:29 PM
That said:WHY....IS ANYONE DISCUSSING WHAT I CHARGE IN THE FIRST PLACE?
and then accusing me of only being interested in a marketing/profit motive?
Again
WHY?
Why have none of you EVER, sat here and discussed a virtual parade of top Budo teacher's rates, books, DVD's, first class tickets, marketing and mandatory seminars for rank.
Why_________________________?
Dan

I think it is quite unfortunate that people do focus on the money and use this as a way of dismissing.
First of all, no matter how much you or anyone charges, that does not change the effectiveness of what they may be teaching. But I think, judging by what I have read in this thread, you, Dan are not charging very much for what you teach - certainly not when compared to many of the Shihan in Japan charge. It does strike me as being very selective to point our money motivation when discussing what you do and not point out the obviously high rates charged by other more "respected" teachers.

I'd be interested in meeting you sometime.

Chris Li
04-12-2013, 02:35 PM
I think it is quite unfortunate that people do focus on the money and use this as a way of dismissing.
First of all, no matter how much you or anyone charges, that does not change the effectiveness of what they may be teaching. But I think, judging by what I have read in this thread, you, Dan are not charging very much for what you teach - certainly not when compared to many of the Shihan in Japan charge. It does strike me as being very selective to point our money motivation when discussing what you do and not point out the obviously high rates charged by other more "respected" teachers.

I'd be interested in meeting you sometime.

Dan's been permanently banned from Aikiweb (this very thread was the catalyst), but you can find his schedule at http://bodyworkseminars.org/

If it matters, he's gone into his own pocket more than once just in order to come out and play with us in Hawaii.

Best,

Chris

R H
04-13-2013, 01:06 AM
If it matters, he's gone into his own pocket more than once just in order to come out and play with us in Hawaii.

Best,

Chris

Well, it is Hawaii after all! Who wouldn't chip in a bit to go there:)

It's a shame that he was banned here though. Although I do agree that his approach to communicating with people online might sometimes be a bit...how shall I put this...rough...and could be viewed as offensive and opinionated in the extreme, from what I know of my own studies in Daito-ryu, I feel he knows what he is talking about. I would bet plenty of money on his ability. I'm sure, everyone here could learn a lot from his experience. Banning him was a MISTAKE that will only harm the Aikido community.

Alex Megann
04-25-2013, 05:27 AM
Dan's been permanently banned from Aikiweb (this very thread was the catalyst), but you can find his schedule at http://bodyworkseminars.org/

That's a pity. Not a surprise to me though, since he is very outspoken and some of what he has said (which I agree with to a large extent) does indeed run counter to the rules of AikiWeb (which I also agree with).

I just spent a great weekend with Dan in Bristol. It was my first hands-on with him and it changed me from finding what he has said on the forums challenging and stimulating, to being convinced that this stuff is indeed very special and powerful, and indeed missing from most teaching in aikido dojos.

I have plenty to work on and think about after the weekend. I am starting to work with opening and closing the shoulders and kua, which I find very applicable to aikido technique. It was the first time (outside a yoga class, at any rate) that I have ever heard the tanden described as a three-dimensional structure, rather than a point or an amorphous blob, and I find this very illuminating. Lots of other stuff to explore too.

As I said, it is a shame that it seems Dan won't be posting any more, since it was through this very forum that I heard about him.

Alex

Tengu859
04-25-2013, 06:26 AM
It's humorous how both liberalism and conservatism seem so very similar when taken to the extreme...
:0)

Cady Goldfield
04-25-2013, 06:58 AM
It's humorous how both liberalism and conservatism seem so very similar when taken to the extreme...
:0)

Where do you see extreme liberalism and conservatism demonstrated here? We're talking about empirical experiences here, not political or philosophical radicalism.

Tengu859
04-25-2013, 07:52 AM
Where do you see extreme liberalism and conservatism demonstrated here? We're talking about empirical experiences here, not political or philosophical radicalism.

Sorry for the thread drift...just my own random thoughts...not pertaining to an empirical discussion.

Take Care,

ChrisW :0)