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Nick
08-26-2000, 02:41 PM
so, what's it mean to all of you?

-Nick

akiy
08-26-2000, 04:37 PM
True victory is victory over oneself.

-- Jun

Nick
08-26-2000, 05:12 PM
yes, but what does that mean to you? Or do you feel that they do not need to be explained further (which is fine too)?

-Nick

AikiTom
08-26-2000, 08:48 PM
What it means to me is that the goal of aikido is not victory over another, but victory over your own selfish desires/wants. In other words, the true opponent is within, not outside of us. In fighting and overcoming our own selfishnesses and weaknesses we can more fully appreciate those of others and the struggles they face. That can make us more understanding, rendering us more tolerant, and less likely to take part or initiate situations requiring aikido. And, in the event it's needed to do so in a more caring way, rather than seeeking dominance in an ego sense. Make sense?
P.S. On the left shoulder of my gi I have the kanji for "masakatsu agatsu" to remind of that each time I put it on. On the right shoulder I've just added the kanji for "hibi shoshinsha" (not sure if I'm remembering right about the "sha") which means "every day a new mind" or "beginner's mind" which I'd like to think of before I get on the mat.

Victor
08-29-2000, 07:45 AM
A very interesting saying, that makes me think of it every time I hear/read one.

AFAIK, there were no competitions in Aikido. So there were no concepts of winning/losing. Excpet the competition with yourself.

So, what does it really mean "to compete with yourself" ?

IMHO, It is a duel between you and your self.

If you win - it shall be MASAKATSU.

the question is : "How do I know if I win?"

:)

Kristina Morris
08-29-2000, 09:06 AM
Victro said: "How do I know if I win"

You will know you have won when you arrive at the beginning again.
Then your Aikido training will be brand new - only this time you _will_ be one with the universe and all conflicts will fall by the wayside.

Kristina
feeling very philosophical this am

Victor
08-29-2000, 09:07 AM
Kristina Morris wrote:
Victro said: "How do I know if I win"

You will know you have won when you arrive at the beginning again.
...and the beginning is?

akiy
08-29-2000, 09:26 AM
Victor wrote:
...and the beginning is?
Where we are each time we step on and off the mat.

-- Jun

Kristina Morris
08-29-2000, 10:30 AM
akiy wrote:
Victor wrote:
...and the beginning is?
Where we are each time we step on and off the mat.

-- Jun

and each time you 'step on and off the mat' (if you have arrived at the beginning) all conflicts will fall to the wayside.

OR....your training should eventually bring you to the place (point in time in _your_ life) that you are so attuned to your surroundings on and off the mat, that all conflicts that come your way will fall to the wayside because you know the conflicts before they arrive. Being one with the universe.

Kristina
don't know how to explain it any better

Victor
08-30-2000, 06:08 AM
akiy wrote:
Victor wrote:
...and the beginning is?
Where we are each time we step on and off the mat.

WOW!
so, i take a victory over my self each time i step on the mat!
Tonight i'm gonna take another victory over my self!

thanx!

Magma
09-05-2000, 08:11 AM
How ironic is it that on a discussion of "masakatsu agatsu" we would watch someone lose his center?

Personally, I think the idea of trying to quantify an idea such as "the beginning" - as Victor does a few posts ago, asking, "...and the beginning is?" - is the product of a western mind. We're so bred to the bone on science and what we can poke, prod, regulate, or postulate that we have washed all of the magic out of our lives.

I don't think Kristina would say that she has attained a full victory over herself and so come back to the beginning again, so maybe until then she'll be unable to explain the concept any better than she has. Maybe when you get there you'll be able to explain it better.

Or maybe it needs no explaining at all... only experiencing.

M.

ze'ev erlich
09-09-2000, 09:55 AM
for all of those who compare aikido to other martial arts, and ask if aikido is useful or if aikido is practical...

the purpose of the aikidoka is to win harmony
body and mind
with the surroundings
with the universe

when you achieve it you have gained he most important victory.

who will fight you then?


this is what i try to keep in mind whenever i can.

masakatsu agatsu



yours

ze'ev

David Harrandell
10-03-2000, 09:12 AM
For me MASAKATSU AGATSU or 'true victory is self victory' is overcoming your fears. Forcing yourself to do things which give you the 'butterflies in your stomach feeling'. As a simple example, taking the initiative to start a conversation with a complete stranger. I suppose in a sense it means to loose your ego.
Thats as far as I can explain in the 2 minutes I thought about my answer

Victor
10-03-2000, 12:11 PM
Magma wrote:
How ironic is it that on a discussion of "masakatsu agatsu" we would watch someone lose his center?

Personally, I think the idea of trying to quantify an idea such as "the beginning" - as Victor does a few posts ago, asking, "...and the beginning is?" - is the product of a western mind. We're so bred to the bone on science and what we can poke, prod, regulate, or postulate that we have washed all of the magic out of our lives.

I don't think Kristina would say that she has attained a full victory over herself and so come back to the beginning again, so maybe until then she'll be unable to explain the concept any better than she has. Maybe when you get there you'll be able to explain it better.

Or maybe it needs no explaining at all... only experiencing.

M.
Oh, oh...
A product of a western mind.
And what is wrong with a western mind?
What is wrong in speaking of Masakatsu Agatsu with some (or a lot of) humour?

IMHO, Aikido is for joy, not for something like a serious study (I mean studying Aikido like mathematics/chemistry/biology/history)

If I'm not right - I'm wrong :)

Nick
10-03-2000, 04:21 PM
Indeed- Aikido, besides being a hobby, sport, way of life, philosophy, etc, is just FUN! I love going to class, if I didn't I probably would cease my training.

Back on subject-

I feel I will have defeated myself when I stop fighting against my own feelings. I can keep harmony outside of myself, but inside, I'm a compulsive worrier. I worry about all kinds of things, most of which never happen. Going along with Jun's observation, I seem to put all that behind me when I train. So it seems I win over the problems inside myself that occur outside the dojo when I go in. I worry, as a budoka should, about the here and now.

Now if only I could better harmonize myself with matters outside of the dojo. I figure I'll have that accomplished in maybe 70 or 80 years- if I'm lucky ;).

Have fun everyone.

*gets off soapbox*

Shalom,

-Nick