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ChrisHein
12-22-2012, 04:11 PM
When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise. When I saw this video clip, it was a great example of what I would describe as Aiki. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rroRNqBaF4w

Talk about awareness and a calm mind in the face of real danger- awesome!

MM
12-22-2012, 11:20 PM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

This is my idea of aiki. Ueshiba doesn't evade, he uses power to affect the attacker. There is no evading a tackle here, no attacker spelling his own demise. Ueshiba has power, control, and removes the attackers ability to attack, effectively rendering the attacker powerless. Many of his students talked about his power and their inability to understand what he was doing. I don't understand how evading tackles equates to all that?

Mentally, Ueshiba said he was the Universe and who could overcome that? I don't remember him saying that he evaded his attackers until they created their own demise. Physically and mentally, I think Ueshiba's aiki was something different than a receiver evading tackles. But that's just me. YMMV.

ChrisHein
12-22-2012, 11:47 PM
Yes there are all kinds of different ideas out there Mark. I was interested in talking about a different idea then you are describing in this thread though.

Chris Li
12-23-2012, 12:29 AM
Yes there are all kinds of different ideas out there Mark. I was interested in talking about a different idea then you are describing in this thread though.

Sure, nothing wrong with that - but isn't Mark asking how you justify calling it Aiki?

Best,

Chris

ChrisHein
12-23-2012, 12:45 AM
Sure, nothing wrong with that - but isn't Mark asking how you justify calling it Aiki?

Best,

Chris

Because I do.

Just like you choose to call whatever it is you call Aiki, Aiki. I'm not sure why I need to "justify" anything. That's not what this thread is about. If you would like to start a thread talking about "justifying" what you call Aiki, feel free.

Tom Verhoeven
12-23-2012, 06:45 AM
When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise. When I saw this video clip, it was a great example of what I would describe as Aiki. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rroRNqBaF4w

Talk about awareness and a calm mind in the face of real danger- awesome!

Very nice ! I do not know much about American football (what is a juke?) and hardly ever get to see it - but I liked this clip!

I think I would give "Aiki" a bit broader meaning, but it would include your definition. So for me too this it is an excellent example of Aiki!

Tom

Mary Eastland
12-23-2012, 07:04 AM
Thank Chris...I especially loved when he pulled up and they ran into each other.

Cliff Judge
12-23-2012, 07:12 AM
Have we had a conversation recently about how aiki and kiai are different things?

gregstec
12-23-2012, 07:55 AM
Nice troll Chris, looks like you hooked a few :)

As Cliff said, did we all not have a similar conversation on this stuff just recently?

Greg

p.s. Nice clip by the way, good football and athleticism - absolutely nothing to do about Ueshiba's aiki though

Chris Li
12-23-2012, 10:47 AM
Because I do.

Just like you choose to call whatever it is you call Aiki, Aiki. I'm not sure why I need to "justify" anything. That's not what this thread is about. If you would like to start a thread talking about "justifying" what you call Aiki, feel free.

I tend to agree with Greg's opinion of what's going on here, so I'll step out after this post since you started pretty much the same thread previously for pretty much the same reasons.

Anyway Mark and others have laid out quite a bit of historical material in support of their positions, I guess that's what a search engine is for.

Best,

Chris

DH
12-23-2012, 11:29 AM
I find it sad when terms are just up for grabs. Worse, when the terms-have a pedagogy and the concepts behind them a rich history spanning generations and cultures, and they are simply mangled by modern practitioners (east and west) who don't have any idea that they existed beyond their teachers uninformed instructions to them.

So...
1. Sensei what is Aiki?
Ueshiba draws a circle
"Aiki is opposing forces (in you)."
2. Sensei what is Aiki?
"The mysteries of aiki are revealed in dual opposing spirals....cut...in the midst a friction is created. This gives birth to yin and yang."
Others
O-sensei "Why can we not do what you do, Sensei?"
Ueshiba's reply, simple and final, "Because you don't understand in yo ho."
Ueshiba:
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."
(this ties in with more of the taiji classics)
"Manifest yo (yang) in the right hand, change the left hand to in (yin) and guide the opponent."
(though Ueshiba said it and wrote it, this is direct quote from the Tora no maki)
"The way of the mountain echo is intent, standing in the center of the connection between the ki of heaven and the ki of the earth."
(this is ancient example:
1451: "When I left Katori Shrine after two years of esoteric training and learning heaven earth man and six direction theory...my Ken was unstoppable.")

2012:
"Aiki is evading"
"Aiki is crap"
Two opinions offered; one by an aikido-ka, the other by a judo-ka
Both, according to the internet, are equal to the legends....
I think both are simply, wrong. I'm going with the legends!!:cool:

These things are deep and they are seriously difficult, and they deserved to be legendary skills.
I remain convinced that generations of men who struggled and devoted their life's work to learn these higher level, deeper things were not impressed by .....getting out of the way. Interestingly enough we find many others....who were. There are after all "experts" in the martial arts, the world over who really should never be out there teaching these things, or using terms they have no ability to place and define, much less display. I meet them all over. Why are THEY successful? They are demonstrating their stuff and talking their talk, in rooms full of people who have no connection and really don't know any better anyway.
Simple question, put to shihans reveal they really had no idea;
What they are
Where they came from
What they mean to convey
Nor can they themselves demonstrate any unusual power different from your average aikido-ka.
Should we change the meaning of "expert" while we're at changing the meaning of aiki.

It is getting "fixed" a bit at a time, as people meet men who actually do know what they are talking about and display the unusual power, these terms and concepts are meant to impart. This is the way of martial arts and many other pursuits where you find people who, at any level you stop them at and ask.....are convinced they get it....until they meet someone who actually does.

Dan

Gary David
12-23-2012, 11:30 AM
Yes there are all kinds of different ideas out there Mark. I was interested in talking about a different idea then you are describing in this thread though.

Chris
I have high regard for Dan, what he is doing, and call him friend....I call Mark friend......one of my closest friends is John Clodig.......with whom I have shared what I can of Dan's approach. John finds value in Dan's stuff as well as some parallels........ Even if I couldn't see the value of Dan's solo practice myself, John's views would direct me there........

I am not very far along this path and at my age not sure how far I will get down it.........if you are ever in the area where I live here (maybe 10 miles from your teacher) in Long Beach you are welcome to stop by and we can talk and share......maybe clear some things up.......

Gary

Rob Watson
12-23-2012, 12:38 PM
When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise. When I saw this video clip, it was a great example of what I would describe as Aiki. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rroRNqBaF4w

Talk about awareness and a calm mind in the face of real danger- awesome!

Can he do it regularly? Can he teach others how to do it? How dos it work when folks are trying to kill you instead of just play patty cake with refs and a rigidly structured set of rules?

Does he describes what it is he does in the same or similar terms as you pin on him?

sorokod
12-23-2012, 02:37 PM
I think there s a fair bit of this (leading the attacker) here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDa6gvOoR4, for example around 14:40 time mark.

As to people being upset with you taking liberties with "their Aiki", they are invested in it (emotionally, financially, in terms of their training etc...) and so do not take kindly to people threatening the investment.

DH
12-23-2012, 02:46 PM
I think there s a fair bit of this (leading the attacker) here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDa6gvOoR4, for example around 14:40 time mark.

As to people being upset with you taking liberties with "their Aiki", they are invested in it (emotionally, financially, in terms of their training etc...) and so do not take kindly to people threatening the investment.

What does "their aiki" really mean?
I see it as just another way modern hobbyists have redefined what Yoga is, along with many other pastimes they have only ....invested....in a casual hobby like manner. As one Indian yogi said upon his return from abroad...."There is no yoga in the west....it's only housewives exercising."
Where are our legends of Aiki?
Dan

sorokod
12-23-2012, 03:13 PM
Regarding historical evidence and how an argument based on that evidence can be presented, Prof. Goldsbury sets a high standard in his "Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation" series - definitely worth striving too.


...
Anyway Mark and others have laid out quite a bit of historical material in support of their positions, I guess that's what a search engine is for.


This comes nowhere near, and neither does this (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=320845&postcount=11).

Off course that the thing that is being proven, and the position that is being held is never fully and succinctly stated allows multiple supporters to happily coexist without a need for any evidence whatsoever.

sorokod
12-23-2012, 04:46 PM
To be constructive I respectfully offer that an internet forum is not a good format to stage supporting evidence, state a position and argue it from the evidence. At this day and age it should cost about 0.0$ to establish a small web site to host all that, and it seems that there is enough cognitive firepower to create the content. There will be less ambiguities and passive aggressive "I did my research, now you do yours".

Aikiweb then can be used to openly discuss the evidence and the arguments.

Chris Li
12-23-2012, 05:07 PM
Regarding historical evidence and how an argument based on that evidence can be presented, Prof. Goldsbury sets a high standard in his "Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation" series - definitely worth striving too.

This comes nowhere near, and neither does this (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=320845&postcount=11).

Off course that the thing that is being proven, and the position that is being held is never fully and succinctly stated allows multiple supporters to happily coexist without a need for any evidence whatsoever.

Hmm, got sucked back in...

I'm not talking about proving something beyond a reasonable doubt on an internet forum. What I'm asking for is that if someone says "this is what I'm calling Aiki" then they at least show some evidence of a link to what Ueshiba stated as Aiki. Absent that they can just say that they made it up, it's their own opnion, or whatever, and people can draw their own conclusions.

FWIW, the "investment" (emotionally, financially, in terms of their training etc...) that you talked about is, in my experience, mainly an obstacle among the conventional Aikido folks - the other guys tend to be more open minded and investigative about what may or may not be working and why.

Also, in my experience, Dan is much clearer and succinct about stating what he is and what he is about then most conventional folks (although it may not all happen on an internet forum), or is it them that you're talking about?

Best,

Chris

MM
12-23-2012, 05:25 PM
To be constructive I respectfully offer that an internet forum is not a good format to stage supporting evidence, state a position and argue it from the evidence. At this day and age it should cost about 0.0$ to establish a small web site to host all that, and it seems that there is enough cognitive firepower to create the content. There will be less ambiguities and passive aggressive "I did my research, now you do yours".

Aikiweb then can be used to openly discuss the evidence and the arguments.

I disagree. There is a ton of information here on Aikiweb. Just because people don't want to do the research to find it doesn't invalidate its presence here on Aikiweb. I and others have laid out quite a lot of research pointing to what Ueshiba meant about aiki. Other people just state that this is their definition and when asked for any research ... Well, historically, the discussion gets turned to personalities, word definition, and them asking for spoon fed research.

Where did Chris get his definition of aiki?

Mark

sorokod
12-23-2012, 05:28 PM
Hmm, got sucked back in...

I'm not talking about proving something beyond a reasonable doubt on an internet forum. What I'm asking for is that if someone says "this is what I'm calling Aiki" then they at least show some evidence of a link to what Ueshiba stated as Aiki. Absent that they can just say that they made it up, it's their own opnion, or whatever, and people can draw their own conclusions.

FWIW, the "investment" (emotionally, financially, in terms of their training etc...) that you talked about is, in my experience, mainly an obstacle among the conventional Aikido folks - the other guys tend to be more open minded and investigative about what may or may not be working and why.

Also, in my experience, Dan is much clearer and succinct about stating what he is and what he is about then most conventional folks (although it may not all happen on an internet forum), or is it them that you're talking about?

Best,

Chris

This is not about "proving something", this is about presenting a structured argument for a well defined statement supported by historic evidence such that one can read and form an opinion. So far I haven't seen anything like this and I suspect that this is because such structure will bear close scrutiny.

stan baker
12-23-2012, 05:37 PM
There is a difference between football
And aiki you should at least know that

Stan

sorokod
12-23-2012, 05:38 PM
I disagree. There is a ton of information here on Aikiweb. Just because people don't want to do the research to find it doesn't invalidate its presence here on Aikiweb. I and others have laid out quite a lot of research pointing to what Ueshiba meant about aiki. Other people just state that this is their definition and when asked for any research ... Well, historically, the discussion gets turned to personalities, word definition, and them asking for spoon fed research.

Where did Chris get his definition of aiki?

Mark

I think you confuse information with evidence.

If you have relevant evidence please lay it out in a coherent manner in support of a clearly defined proposition. Surely its in your interest to present your case in the most clear and unambiguous way possible, why let the uninitiated wade through years and megabytes worth of information with uncertain results?

Keith Larman
12-23-2012, 06:08 PM
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.'

Words have meaning that can vary tremendously. So it is usually a good starting point to be more specific about what something means by pointing to examples. Chris does exactly that. Of course that just shows what Chris understands it to mean. That understanding can be spot on to what someone else may have meant when they used the word. I suppose the issue that most would be concerned with in context of Aikido is what Ueshiba Morihei meant when he used it. But that said, most of us are limited to understanding it in terms of our understandings of what our specific teachers meant. And so it goes, eh?

In the end we can use words to simplify, ignore, gloss over, or whatever we choose for that matter. So they can be liberating or they can shackle any chance of greater understanding with every other option in between.

Honestly that video contains aspects of what I was taught over the years. But just aspects and misses many more other meanings. So saying it is aiki or isn't aiki seems kind of silly to me since aiki has come to mean so many things to so many people. And so many things even within different contexts. But that said, I suppose I'm more interested in two things. One is what Ueshiba Morihei meant when he said it. The other is what I can understand and make work in my own practice hoping to instantiate what I suspect the first one was all about... Or at least my understanding of it.

Tis a pleasant puzzle, neh? But then again I find myself suffering from physical disability that prevents me from exploring as much as I'd like. I might have to find a way to take a long drive in a few weeks to work on things more...

Please carry on...

Dazzler
12-24-2012, 05:29 AM
Heck....people could call this aiki if you like....some of you are calling it football.....I mean theres a guy with a peanut under his arm dancing around a bit ....running past the goal that the groundsmen havent even put a net on....and then starting to dance gangam stylee....What bit of that is football?:crazy:

Personally its closer to Pacman than what I think of as Aiki

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVH1mCc5EvU

sorokod
12-24-2012, 05:50 AM
More action from the Pacman :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDa6gvOoR4#t=43m13s (about 43:13 time mark)

Mary Eastland
12-24-2012, 06:12 AM
Or is could be using their idea of what is happening to blend with them.

I train in aikido. Aikido principles, including mind and body being one, happen in every sport and activity everyday. Human beings thrive because they have learned to be fully present and active and alive in the moment.

Aikido training enhances movement as do other activities.

In a free style with 5 ukes or even 3 ukes, it is best to be nage the whole time. By this I mean being the leader...not controlling the situation yet allowing it to happen in a way so it is beneficial for all involved. To extend ki, have a quiet,open mind and let the event happen. Brute strength and forcing will on others works for some...I prefer blending and moving with my ukes.

MM
12-24-2012, 07:18 AM
I think you confuse information with evidence.

If you have relevant evidence please lay it out in a coherent manner in support of a clearly defined proposition. Surely its in your interest to present your case in the most clear and unambiguous way possible, why let the uninitiated wade through years and megabytes worth of information with uncertain results?

Let me point back to what I said, "Other people just state that this is their definition and when asked for any research ... Well, historically, the discussion gets turned to personalities, word definition, and them asking for spoon fed research."

So, I pointed directly to Morihei Ueshiba, the very founder of Aikido, on video, using aiki against attacker's and stated that what he is doing on video is not even remotely close to a receiver evading tackles. Two videos used to provide support for "aiki". One is an American football receiver running the ball, deliberately evading people. The other is Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido, actually running towards attackers and using "soft power" to spontaneously create techniques.

Regarding "evidence"... You said:

To be constructive I respectfully offer that an internet forum is not a good format to stage supporting evidence, state a position and argue it from the evidence. At this day and age it should cost about 0.0$ to establish a small web site to host all that, and it seems that there is enough cognitive firepower to create the content. There will be less ambiguities and passive aggressive "I did my research, now you do yours".

Aikiweb then can be used to openly discuss the evidence and the arguments.

I stated there is a ton of info here on Aikiweb. Failing that, there is a whole lot more on Aikido Journal and the back issues that are now on DVD in PDF format. Then you have Ellis Amdur's books. Topping all that off is Chis Li's translation blogs.

Let's go back to what you stated, "Surely its in your interest to present your case in the most clear and unambiguous way possible, why let the uninitiated wade through years and megabytes worth of information with uncertain results?"

This isn't directed at you but at the readers:
People love Cliff Notes. It saves them from doing the hard work and they can slip by with an edited, abridged version of things. Well, the Aikido World has done that for 40 + years and what has it given us? No Ueshiba's, No Shioda's, No Tomiki's, No Shirata's, No Mochizuki's, etc. Isn't it time to stop using the heavily edited version of aikido and start looking at what Morihei Ueshiba was *really* doing? If you're (plural you, not singling anyone out) just some hobbyist in aikido, sure, no need to bother. But, if you're just a hobbyist, then why are you trying to tell other people, who aren't hobbyists, what aikido is or isn't?

Back to the sujbect at hand:
Chris stated he was a professional aikido teacher. That places him in another area completely. Where did he get his definition of "aiki"? Why is it so completely different than Morihei Ueshiba's defintion of aiki?

chillzATL
12-24-2012, 08:36 AM
FWIW, I have a hard time believing that if you showed Ueshiba that video or other similar videos that he wouldn't happily proclaim "Ah, that's aiki", because I watch videos of him in the last 10 or so years of his life and I see his expression of "aiki" often being quite similar. Though I fully believe that HIS aiki was based entirely on internal skills, the reality is that it is his external expression that we've all been emulating and he seemed, for the most part, ok with people working backwards towards it. Do I believe that one can really do what he was doing without first getting the internal skills? No, I do not, but I'm not entirely convinced that he was too terribly upset about those that were trying in that direction. It seems to me that his aiki, what he considered aiki, both evolved over time and was pretty leniently defined. We probably have as many examples of him giving rank and/or praise to some random person for demonstrating aiki as we do of him freaking out that "this is not my aikido". He seems to have found aiki in all sorts of places, including people using timing, deception, and external blending to off balance someone else.

I guess my point is that it's not hard to see why there are so many opinions about what aikido IS... FWIW.

sorokod
12-24-2012, 08:46 AM
A research can not be *spoon fed*, it is either presented or not. You *state* that you made a research and it seems that you are happy with your conclusions, whatever they may be - we don't know. This is not the same as *presenting* in a coherent and clear manner. Here is an example how one can go about this


The recognition of a historical problem or the identification of a need for certain historical knowledge.
The gathering of as much relevant information about the problem or topic as possible.
If appropriate, the forming of hypothesis that tentatively explain relationships between historical factors.
The rigorous collection and organization of evidence, and the verification of the authenticity and veracity of information and its sources.
The selection, organization, and analysis of the most pertinent collected evidence, and the drawing of conclusions;
The recording of conclusions in a meaningful narrative.


http://www.gslis.utexas.edu/~palmquis/courses/historical.htm

Perhaps it is more accurate to say that after reading Aikido Journal, various books and blogs you formed some sort of personal opinion. There is nothing wrong with that, but don't expect people to accept your opinion as a fact.

Regarding "hobby", as in "An activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure", I think that most of the members of this forum fall into this category (including you perhaps) so the remark about "hobbyist" doesn't make much sense to me.

BTW, the common theme to the videos is "leading the actions of opponents", the strategic goals are different off-course, but hopefully you can see the similarity.

MM
12-24-2012, 09:23 AM
A research can not be *spoon fed*, it is either presented or not.


Glad you noted that. By your definition, my research has been presented. I guess I'd have to say, then, that *your* due diligence into finding my research is lacking. "your" being plural and addressing all those people who have not done the proper looking into threads here on aikiweb for this research.


You *state* that you made a research and it seems that you are happy with your conclusions, whatever they may be - we don't know. This is not the same as *presenting* in a coherent and clear manner. Here is an example how one can go about this


Without actually taking the time and going through Aikiweb, how is it that you can state so clearly that the research is *not* there?


Perhaps it is more accurate to say that after reading Aikido Journal, various books and blogs you formed some sort of personal opinion. There is nothing wrong with that, but don't expect people to accept your opinion as a fact.


Actually, no, it isn't a "personal opinion", but then again, you'd know that if you'd taken the time to research aikiweb for the relevent research. Or taken the time to read through the back issues of Aikido Journal, Black Belt magazine, Aikido Today, aikido books, etc. Why should we accept your opinion that you think what I've done is "personal opinion" when I've done all the research and you haven't?


Regarding "hobby", as in "An activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure", I think that most of the members of this forum fall into this category (including you perhaps) so the remark about "hobbyist" doesn't make much sense to me.


Let me try to clarify. Hobbyist meaning someone who trains aikido 1-2 days a week on average but puts many other things in his/her life above aikido. Someone who only trains when they go to the dojo. As opposed to professional teachers who teach aikido for a living, people who train 3 or more days a week, or people who put in training time outside the dojo trying to excel at aikido.


BTW, the common theme to the videos is "leading the actions of opponents", the strategic goals are different off-course, but hopefully you can see the similarity.

Actually, there is no similarity there. The receiver does his utmost best to not get grabbed. The receiver does his best to not have physical contact. The receiver uses feints to trick defenders into stepping anywhere else than where the receiver wants to be.

Morihei Ueshiba moves to the attacker and initiates physical contact. Ueshiba uses that physical contact to direct (with "soft power") the attacker elsewhere. Ueshiba takes the attacker's power away from them such that the attacker cannot defend against Ueshiba's "soft power". There is no feint and there is no evading such that Ueshiba doesn't get touched.

The differences in the two videos are like night and day. One is Ueshiba's aiki while the other is good football strategy via athleticism. Completely and utterly different.

sorokod
12-24-2012, 09:43 AM
Got it; no similarity, three times a week and "research aikiweb for the relevent research".

Just occurred to me, your research is hidden in plain site! :-)

MM
12-24-2012, 10:53 AM
Got it; no similarity, three times a week and "research aikiweb for the relevent research".

Just occurred to me, your research is hidden in plain site! :-)

It sort of is.

For example, Tenryu tried to push Ueshiba over and could not. Why couldn't Tenryu move Ueshiba? Ueshiba's answer was that Tenryu failed because he (Ueshiba) knew the secret of aiki. The secret of aiki is used in push tests to remain stable. Now, compare that with the video of the US football receiver. Where in all of that is there any indication of the receiver being pushed on in any manner? Secret of aiki, remember is used in push tests.

Relevent research here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14991

Search YouTube for Kaz Tanahashi (I think that's spelled right) and how he talks about how Saito and his people used to push on Ueshiba all the time.

Now, compare how Ueshiba viewed push tests as part of his aiki with the US football receiver dodging and evading attacker's and that definition of "aiki". The two are nowhere near each other. Hence, my posts to Chris on where he learned this definition of "aiki" as it clearly is opposite what Ueshiba has stated.

Mark

DH
12-24-2012, 11:24 AM
I think you confuse information with evidence.
Sigh

Not really. That information is evidence if you are conversant and competent in it, you understand it.
Certain evidence in court is beyond the ability for a judge or jury to understand, so a court calls in experts to review. I have not met or seen, or have heard...of a an expert in Aikido who ever came forth to:

Explain what Ueshiba meant
Where and how it ties in to other cultural references to the same work
Why the same exact terminology keeps showing up across generations and oceans.
Demonstrate Ueshiba's exercises and show and teach how they have a dramatic effect... on the spot.
Demonstrate his power.


So ...when it comes to evidence, were that judge looking for an expert for the material we are supposedly debating, who could he go to within Aikido? In other words, our communities lack of understanding of what Ueshiba said,(by their own admission) what it meant, where it comes from and how it applies does not one thing to invalidate it as evidence does it? The only evidence that remains is that it is plainly evident that the teachers in the art do not have an answer. We are the ones showing up with the better translations (hell some of it was never translated), the origins and cultural comparisons, the explanations for the terminology and....wait....actual ability to demonstrate unusual power.
And you have come up with no one, no one at all, to counter anything, much less demonstrate unusual power?

For what reason (other than from time to time to write in to correct people) should I care about opinion about this evidence from people who have never even heard of it, don't know where it comes from, what it means and can't demonstrate anything unusual at all?
In law, evidence is argued by bought men more interested in winning, then in truth. If you enter a court room looking for truth, you're a fool. We are talking about Budo, not law and one level of evidence that remains compelling to the experts in Budo that is so far, beyond reproach: I touch hands with them.
Magically, the debate over evidence.....ends, truth arrives, friends are made.

The only place the debate has any life is on the net. Face to face, no one has presented anything that proved successful against what we are presenting. At this point I am fairly convinced that there isn't anyone who is able to demonstrate a counter to what we are discussing, in terminology or skill.
It really makes a clear statement that a 100% conversion rate has had little effect in the argument. I can only imagine what wold happen if 100% of the people who tried Aikido....were converted to doing Aikido. Aikido-ka would be shouting that from the roof tops. That alone makes a statement about bought men looking to win at any cost, and not caring about the truth.

I keep looking toward the future. That future is standing in rooms with Aikido Shihan and other teachers, who are stadning i rooms with teachers from so many other arts I lost count all sharing, laughing and genuinely, and earnestly seeking truth. A truth without attachment, where honesty and sincerity prevail over factions and protecting the status quo.

I have never seen such a diverse range of teachers from so many different arts all standing in the same room learning. I am told by many teachers it does this more than the Aikido Journal demonstrations even did.
We are going to change the face of modern Aikido, one dojo at a time. This is not a fad. It is Ueshiba's vision of aiki, re-emerging and it is as compelling as he was.

Dan

sorokod
12-24-2012, 11:28 AM
It sort of is.

Now, compare that with the video of the US football receiver. Where in all of that is there any indication of the receiver being pushed on in any manner? Secret of aiki, remember is used in push tests.


In the same interview the founder says:

When an opponent comes to attack you, you just move your body slightly to avoid his attack, and let him go wherever he wants. This is Aiki. In other words, you give him freedom.


I find that this sits well with the football video. Are you cherry picking your quotes Mark? In a research?

MM
12-24-2012, 02:54 PM
In the same interview the founder says:

I find that this sits well with the football video. Are you cherry picking your quotes Mark? In a research?

Considering that I have correlated hundreds of items from interviews, articles, and books - and posted it here, I think "cherry picking" would certainly be very hard to prove. Now, if someone were to just post one small snippet of one interview to bolster their opinion, why, that might certainly be "cherry picking". Wouldn't you agree?

gregstec
12-24-2012, 03:24 PM
Considering that I have correlated hundreds of items from interviews, articles, and books - and posted it here, I think "cherry picking" would certainly be very hard to prove. Now, if someone were to just post one small snippet of one interview to bolster their opinion, why, that might certainly be "cherry picking". Wouldn't you agree?

Well, in all fairness, I can see where the below statement could be construed to represent an external movement to avoid contact to someone not familiar with the internal concepts and principles of Ueshiba's Aiki. However, if looked at from the internal perspective, the statement also supports the IP/IS concepts - as in, slightly move internally to set up dual opposing spiral in you so on contact the aggressor's attack is sent off in a tangent thus avoiding the attack and the attacker can go his own way, or you can help him along; your choice :)

When an opponent comes to attack you, you just move your body slightly to avoid his attack, and let him go wherever he wants. This is Aiki. In other words, you give him freedom.I wanted to look more at the source of that statement for proper context, but there was no proper reference provided by the poster other than is was part of an interview you quoted; which were many from what I could see.

Greg

mathewjgano
12-24-2012, 04:09 PM
Well, in all fairness, I can see where the below statement could be construed to represent an external movement to avoid contact to someone not familiar with the internal concepts and principles of Ueshiba's Aiki. However, if looked at from the internal perspective, the statement also supports the IP/IS concepts - as in, slightly move internally to set up dual opposing spiral in you so on contact the aggressor's attack is sent off in a tangent thus avoiding the attack and the attacker can go his own way, or you can help him along; your choice :)

I wanted to look more at the source of that statement for proper context, but there was no proper reference provided by the poster other than is was part of an interview you quoted; which were many from what I could see.

Greg

Would it be helpful if people started making a distinction between external and internal aiki? I get the feeling some might say there is no such thing as external aiki, and if that's the case, maybe for the sake of discussion it's time we invented it.
Might we look at David's quote as applying in different ways depending on the individual's ability? Many students will probably reflect a more external expression of move out of the way and let aite go where he wants than someone with a strong internal development (something which has been described as very hard to develop to a significant degree). I don't get the impression O Sensei thought everyone ought learn the internal perspective I assume he had, so, based on that at least, I don't see it as "bad" where people don't.

gregstec
12-24-2012, 04:46 PM
Would it be helpful if people started making a distinction between external and internal aiki? I get the feeling some might say there is no such thing as external aiki, and if that's the case, maybe for the sake of discussion it's time we invented it.

I hear what you are saying and understand it to a point. Aiki as a simple term can be applied to many different things in an energy blending, harmonious, joining, or avoiding type of context - however, when speaking of Ueshiba's aiki, more and more independent information has been surfacing in the last few years that is painting a different picture of what many in modern Aikido have been told was Ueshiba's aiki. So for any party to state this is the true Ueshiba aiki without providing detailed documentation supporting their view point does not carry much weight - IMO, I think the IP/IS crowd has done a fair job of providing detail to support their position, but the only thing I keep hearing from the other side is that they are all wrong because that is not what their teacher taught them. In addition, the IP/IS crowd is starting to show people developing unusual power in their Aikido as well as other arts the group is involved in; where are the modern Aikido teachers with the same level of unusual power approaching Ueshiba's?

If someone is not interested in the type of stuff we do and wants to keep their Aikido the way it is, that is fine - just don't say we are wrong and you are right without experiencing both approaches - everyone in the IP/IS group has extensive experiences from being on the other side at one time - how many from the non IP/IS group can make the same claim?

Greg

sorokod
12-24-2012, 05:19 PM
Considering that I have correlated hundreds of items from interviews, articles, and books - and posted it here, I think "cherry picking" would certainly be very hard to prove. Now, if someone were to just post one small snippet of one interview to bolster their opinion, why, that might certainly be "cherry picking". Wouldn't you agree?

I think that me agreeing or disagreeing is not important. The important thing is that your work has integrity. More to the point, will you revisit your take on what is and isn't aiki in the light the quote?

Here it is again


When an opponent comes to attack you, you just move your body slightly to avoid his attack, and let him go wherever he wants. This is Aiki. In other words, you give him freedom.


The source is Aikido Journal, article is titled "Interview with Morihei Ueshiba published in Shukan Yomiuri in 1956". I believe that you need to be a member to view it on http://members.aikidojournal.com/private/morihei-ueshiba-2/

Gary David
12-24-2012, 06:36 PM
I think that me agreeing or disagreeing is not important. The important thing is that your work has integrity. More to the point, will you revisit your take on what is and isn't aiki in the light the quote?

Here it is again

Quote:
When an opponent comes to attack you, you just move your body slightly to avoid his attack, and let him go wherever he wants. This is Aiki. In other words, you give him freedom.

The source is Aikido Journal, article is titled "Interview with Morihei Ueshiba published in Shukan Yomiuri in 1956". I believe that you need to be a member to view it on http://members.aikidojournal.com/private/morihei-ueshiba-2/

David
Are you saying that aiki is only getting out of the way? Or is only blending and timing? Does IP/IS play no part in all of this in your world?

Gary

ChrisHein
12-24-2012, 06:43 PM
n

Very nice ! I do not know much about American football (what is a juke?) and hardly ever get to see it - but I liked this clip!


A "juke" is an American slang word used in sports to describe a situation where the ball carrier fools the defender and makes them belive they are going a direction that they acutually are not.


I think I would give "Aiki" a bit broader meaning, but it would include your definition. So for me too this it is an excellent example of Aiki!

Tom

I agree that there is more to Aiki than one sees in this video, but what a neat example of an "aiki" moment, done under full resistance!

mathewjgano
12-24-2012, 06:45 PM
I hear what you are saying and understand it to a point. Aiki as a simple term can be applied to many different things in an energy blending, harmonious, joining, or avoiding type of context - however, when speaking of Ueshiba's aiki, more and more independent information has been surfacing in the last few years that is painting a different picture of what many in modern Aikido have been told was Ueshiba's aiki. So for any party to state this is the true Ueshiba aiki without providing detailed documentation supporting their view point does not carry much weight - IMO, I think the IP/IS crowd has done a fair job of providing detail to support their position, but the only thing I keep hearing from the other side is that they are all wrong because that is not what their teacher taught them. In addition, the IP/IS crowd is starting to show people developing unusual power in their Aikido as well as other arts the group is involved in; where are the modern Aikido teachers with the same level of unusual power approaching Ueshiba's?

If someone is not interested in the type of stuff we do and wants to keep their Aikido the way it is, that is fine - just don't say we are wrong and you are right without experiencing both approaches - everyone in the IP/IS group has extensive experiences from being on the other side at one time - how many from the non IP/IS group can make the same claim?

Greg
I agree talking about "true Ueshiba Aikido" is...problematic. And I think we'd all have an easier time if we avoided that issue more. The OP couched the video in terms of his understanding of aiki, which may or may not be right (in terms of "pure" Ueshiba aiki), but I thought the point was less about what aiki is than what he saw as good movement when being pursued by multiple people; I can see how he might have just been referencing the fact that his idea of aiki is different from what is very often mentioned on AikiWeb these days (a version I personally put a lot of stock in...as far as I can understand it, at any rate). I see that as an honest way of framing the basic premise made here that this video is a good example of aiki (aikido-like behavior).
That all said:
A similarity I see between that idea (exemplified by high level athleticism) and the old Asahi film is that O Sensei never stays in the middle of all those people; at some point he moves away from them, finding a safer space to reorganize. If aikido (not necessarily aiki itself) was "always" about engagement I would think he would stay in the thick of it rather than moving away from it. As I currently interpret things, aiki is about how one engages themselves (i.e. a meta-operating system) which then affects how interactions will manifest. Using the intent of the attacker against him is good aikido, even if perhaps it's not sufficient to be called pure internal aiki. So rather than getting caught up in the language, which I would agree is an important topic on its own, I'd just rather see more engaging of the valid points being made that are salient to the common training experience.

ChrisHein
12-24-2012, 06:45 PM
Thank Chris...I especially loved when he pulled up and they ran into each other.

Yeah, I was pretty impressed by that myself!! What a great idea, using their force against them, all the ball carrier had to do was to understand what the attackers wanted to do, and he used their minds against them, effortlessly! This is the kind of thing that makes Aiki, and Aikido so interesting to me!!

DH
12-24-2012, 06:48 PM
In the same interview the founder says:

Quote:
When an opponent comes to attack you, you just move your body ***slightly*** to avoid his attack, and let him go wherever he wants. This is Aiki. In other words, you give him freedom.
I find that this sits well with the football video. Are you cherry picking your quotes Mark? In a research?
No...there is no comparison.
Are you cherry picking sentences? Do you know why what he said is relevant to this:
"Not a feather can be added, nor can a fly alight that doesn't induce rotation."
Do you know how it fits perfectly with his other comments in many other areas. They all fit together once you understand how to move the body. If you don't you...well...you end up moving like the average guy.
Obviously you don't understand how it fits together, hence the confusion you have about Ueshiba's statements, training exercises, power and aiki, but your confusion...is not my confusion.

I lay it all out for people, start to finish, complete with his exercises, and why they worked and how to do them and what they were for, and then tie it back to his sayings and how they, tie into other work. Then...I actually demonstrate unusual power created from them...and...teach.
Oh well.
Dan

mathewjgano
12-24-2012, 07:03 PM
"Not a feather can be added, nor can a fly alight that doesn't induce rotation."


Thank you, Dan! I hadn't read this with the last 4 words included yet. I had wondered about the partial quote I read before...still wondering, but in a differet way. :) Thanks again!
p.s Happy Holidays and New Year to everyone. Off to dinner...

sorokod
12-24-2012, 07:07 PM
David
Are you saying that aiki is only getting out of the way? Or is only blending and timing? Does IP/IS play no part in all of this in your world?

Gary

For whatever its worth, I think that throughout his life, the founder used aiki to describe different aspects of his practice. Given the quote in this thread that included "move your body slightly to avoid his attack, and let him go wherever he wants"

ChrisHein
12-24-2012, 07:09 PM
What I'm asking for is that if someone says "this is what I'm calling Aiki" then they at least show some evidence of a link to what Ueshiba stated as Aiki.

I'm out of town, and I only have Budo Renshu with me, but here are a few quick quotes I found from Ueshiba, describing his art.

"Thinking I am in front of him, the enemy raises his sword to attack, but lo I am already standing behind him"

"Drawing out the attack of the perverse enemy, my body stands behind him and cuts."

I also have "Aikido" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba with me. In that there is a story-

" A young naval officer and kendo teacher came to his [Ueshiba's] Dojo. The jujutsu man [Ueshiba] tried to explain the theory of his "Aiki" to the Kendo man but it seems that the visitor had come for a fight. In the end, Ueshiba consented to having a match. The officer dashed forward to attack with his wooden training sword but each time Ueshiba was able to dodge the weapon with ease. Finally the challenger sat down without once touching him."

So here we have two poems where Ueshiba himself describes his art, and how using it means convincing your attacker you are in one place, when in fact you are behind him.

Then we also have a story, recounted by the founders son, where he describes Ueshiba, when pressed to show "Aiki" simply dodges all of the swords mans attacks until the swordman is to tired to continue.

Sounds like what you were asking for, no?

sorokod
12-24-2012, 07:12 PM
Not a feather can be added, nor can a fly alight that doesn't induce rotation.


An interesting quote, what is the source please?

ChrisHein
12-24-2012, 07:16 PM
An interesting quote, what is the source please?

-Wang Tsung-yueh

Not, Ueshiba. We are talking about differnt arts here.

sorokod
12-24-2012, 07:32 PM
-Wang Tsung-yueh

Not, Ueshiba. We are talking about differnt arts here.

Um... why would we want to do that?

DH
12-24-2012, 07:44 PM
Um... why would we want to do that?
Mostly because Ueshiba continued to quote taiji classics his entire life. How were they expressed in his art. Oddly he liked to talk about it...a lot!!
He also quoted ancient Japanese texts that...well... often quotes Chinese terms.
Why is it pertinent? Well, obviously neither of you know. So....here we are back to football as aiki. :rolleyes:
Dan

Chris Li
12-24-2012, 07:44 PM
I'm out of town, and I only have Budo Renshu with me, but here are a few quick quotes I found from Ueshiba, describing his art.

"Thinking I am in front of him, the enemy raises his sword to attack, but lo I am already standing behind him"

"Drawing out the attack of the perverse enemy, my body stands behind him and cuts."

I also have "Aikido" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba with me. In that there is a story-

" A young naval officer and kendo teacher came to his [Ueshiba's] Dojo. The jujutsu man [Ueshiba] tried to explain the theory of his "Aiki" to the Kendo man but it seems that the visitor had come for a fight. In the end, Ueshiba consented to having a match. The officer dashed forward to attack with his wooden training sword but each time Ueshiba was able to dodge the weapon with ease. Finally the challenger sat down without once touching him."

So here we have two poems where Ueshiba himself describes his art, and how using it means convincing your attacker you are in one place, when in fact you are behind him.

Then we also have a story, recounted by the founders son, where he describes Ueshiba, when pressed to show "Aiki" simply dodges all of the swords mans attacks until the swordman is to tired to continue.

Sounds like what you were asking for, no?

Not really, no, but a couple of points:

1) The top two quotes have everything to do with Aiki in the body and intent, and nothing to do with evasion. This becomes evident when you work with the body of Ueshiba's speech as he defines his method (which I won't go into here, but have touched on in my blogs (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog)), and look at it in the context of arts such as Daito-ryu and traditional sword, which the quotes are describing.
2) The story is by Kisshomaru describing the appearance of what happened, and even that is a second hand account - Kisshomaru was four at the time. Mistaking the effect for the cause is one giant reason why things go astray.

Trying to reason these things from the outside in is very difficult - most of the standard assumptions end up wrong.

That being said, "convincing your attacker you are in one place, when in fact you are behind him" is not exactly wrong, so much as it is misleading - enough so that I don't think that it's very useful, except as a description on an extremely crude level, such as pulling a chair out from under somebody so that the fall on the floor. The kind of thing that Dan (and Morihei) is talking about is way beyond that.

Anyway, I'm going to step out here, again.

Best,

Chris

DH
12-24-2012, 07:46 PM
David
Are you saying that aiki is only getting out of the way? Or is only blending and timing? Does IP/IS play no part in all of this in your world?
Gary
I still haven't gotten over the flip side of that idea. All those warriors and civilian guys with so much experience...come to find out, were defeated and impressed by...getting out of the way?

Of course that's not true, and it replaces thousands of years of body technology for something that...well...any ol athlete would know. Hence certain people thinking they go it...in a year and pro athletes have internal power and now aiki.

The planned approach is simple, since most people don't know and can't do his stuff, redefine his model down to something everyone can do.
Dan

Gary David
12-24-2012, 07:53 PM
For whatever its worth, I think that throughout his life, the founder used aiki to describe different aspects of his practice. Given the quote in this thread that included "move your body slightly to avoid his attack, and let him go wherever he wants"

David
Accepting that that might be the case........in your view where does IP/IS fit in the aiki paradigm or does it?

Gary

gregstec
12-24-2012, 09:03 PM
I agree talking about "true Ueshiba Aikido" is...problematic. And I think we'd all have an easier time if we avoided that issue more. The OP couched the video in terms of his understanding of aiki, which may or may not be right (in terms of "pure" Ueshiba aiki), but I thought the point was less about what aiki is than what he saw as good movement when being pursued by multiple people; I can see how he might have just been referencing the fact that his idea of aiki is different from what is very often mentioned on AikiWeb these days (a version I personally put a lot of stock in...as far as I can understand it, at any rate). I see that as an honest way of framing the basic premise made here that this video is a good example of aiki (aikido-like behavior).
That all said:
A similarity I see between that idea (exemplified by high level athleticism) and the old Asahi film is that O Sensei never stays in the middle of all those people; at some point he moves away from them, finding a safer space to reorganize. If aikido (not necessarily aiki itself) was "always" about engagement I would think he would stay in the thick of it rather than moving away from it. As I currently interpret things, aiki is about how one engages themselves (i.e. a meta-operating system) which then affects how interactions will manifest. Using the intent of the attacker against him is good aikido, even if perhaps it's not sufficient to be called pure internal aiki. So rather than getting caught up in the language, which I would agree is an important topic on its own, I'd just rather see more engaging of the valid points being made that are salient to the common training experience.

No one in the IP/IS group ever said that moving out of the way was not a valid martial movement; it can be done with or without aiki, and in of itself, it really is not aiki; just part of an external jujutsu movement. As said, If that is how one looks at it and likes to keep their Aikido in that frame of perspective, that is fine. What we are saying is that there is much more out there, and for those looking for more, here is something to look into - simple as that.

Greg

Carsten Möllering
12-25-2012, 04:30 AM
"Thinking I am in front of him, the enemy raises his sword to attack, but lo I am already standing behind him"
"Drawing out the attack of the perverse enemy, my body stands behind him and cuts."
I learn from two different shihan that this is not about evading, but going through the attacker. Which means using the body in different way.
Looking at the result is interesting: After evading the attacker has all possibilities to further attack. After going through him you stand behind him and cut. finito
So what the football video shows is a counterexample to what they want us to do.

sorokod
12-25-2012, 04:39 AM
David
Accepting that that might be the case........in your view where does IP/IS fit in the aiki paradigm or does it?

Gary

I don't really know how to answer since I haven't seen a definition of IP/IS. I also think that the founder used "Aiki" in wide variety of meanings (e.g. Aiki Budo - a prewar name of his art, Aiki as moving out of the way, Aiki as being solid, etc...) and an attempt to fit that "Aiki" into an "aiki paradigm" seems to me an unnatural one.

One can ask "How important was the 'Tenryu ability' to the founder and in the way he saw his art" - my guess is that not very, but I am nowhere near even trying to prove this.

Gary David
12-25-2012, 11:58 AM
I don't really know how to answer since I haven't seen a definition of IP/IS. I also think that the founder used "Aiki" in wide variety of meanings (e.g. Aiki Budo - a prewar name of his art, Aiki as moving out of the way, Aiki as being solid, etc...) and an attempt to fit that "Aiki" into an "aiki paradigm" seems to me an unnatural one.

One can ask "How important was the 'Tenryu ability' to the founder and in the way he saw his art" - my guess is that not very, but I am nowhere near even trying to prove this.

David
I started in the '70s with Tohei Sensei coming to our dojo several times a year just to teach a Wednesday night class for the regulars.....one point, relax completely, weight underside, & extend ki were all part of the normal conversation........ The problem was the depth of the detail available to go along with these terms......there wasn't much, not enough to get a real handle on. The same was true of the aiki taiso.......not much detail. We did all of the ki testing.... Got good enough at it to understand how to bypass them and how to kept anyone from really testing at that level. When I asked folks How do you teach, how do train folks to establish one point, relax completely and the others in the face of attacking intend, moving and under stress? ......there was no answer.

After spending a whole lot of years in my waza phase I went back to asking. I started checking folks out, started paying more attention to a few friends who had some answers and looking outside...... I found Dan. Combining Dan's approach with my friend John's stuff I can see value in what I was shown in the 70's.....the keys to useful learning and application. All we got then was hints, now I can see connections.......

Gary

sorokod
12-25-2012, 12:24 PM
That is very good but how is this related to the post you quoted?

Tom Verhoeven
12-25-2012, 12:41 PM
No one in the IP/IS group ever said that moving out of the way was not a valid martial movement; it can be done with or without aiki, and in of itself, it really is not aiki; just part of an external jujutsu movement. As said, If that is how one looks at it and likes to keep their Aikido in that frame of perspective, that is fine. What we are saying is that there is much more out there, and for those looking for more, here is something to look into - simple as that.

Greg

Well, that sounds reasonable enough.

But as moving out of the way (I thought the English word for it was evasion) is a valid martial movement that can be done with aiki - what is the objection to talk about it in this thread?

There are a lot of evasive movements that are practiced in Aikido dojo all over the world, what is the objection to comparing these?

What is the objection to look at similar movements in other arts?

What is the objection against looking at examples from for instance predators and prey in nature?

How about looking at choreographed fights in movies - any objections to examples from that?

Tom

gregstec
12-25-2012, 01:04 PM
Well, that sounds reasonable enough.

But as moving out of the way (I thought the English word for it was evasion) is a valid martial movement that can be done with aiki - what is the objection to talk about it in this thread?

There are a lot of evasive movements that are practiced in Aikido dojo all over the world, what is the objection to comparing these?

What is the objection to look at similar movements in other arts?

What is the objection against looking at examples from for instance predators and prey in nature?

How about looking at choreographed fights in movies - any objections to examples from that?

Tom

Absolutely no objection as long as they are called what they really are; which is external jujutsu movements and not being implied that they are part of the high level internal aiki that Ueshiba was renowned for.

Greg

Gary David
12-25-2012, 01:21 PM
That is very good but how is this related to the post you quoted?

David
Nothing really.......just keeping the connection.

My thought here is just that the individual drills that I have gotten from Dan, as well as from John, have given me insights and ways to look at the stuff I was shown 30 years ago......allows me to utilize what was hinted at then..... Consider that we were only given hints........

Gary

sorokod
12-25-2012, 01:33 PM
Also, after forty years of Aikido training, revisiting the past with new insights is understandable.

Gary David
12-25-2012, 02:13 PM
David
There are 'outliers' out there that we can utilize rather than argue over terms or usage...... For me learning what I can and getting it right on my own terms is what is important to me. With Dan, John & others, this is my path.......good journey with yours.......

Gary

sorokod
12-25-2012, 02:56 PM
Gary, I agree with you completely. That training with a particular teacher improves your Aikido is verifiable and is a good reason to go back for more. That in itself, has nothing to do with historical authenticity.

James Sawers
12-25-2012, 03:26 PM
Hey, don't you guys take Christmas off.....?????

sorokod
12-25-2012, 03:46 PM
No rest for the wicked.

James Sawers
12-25-2012, 03:48 PM
No rest for the wicked.

Guess Santa passed you by then..............

Tom Verhoeven
12-25-2012, 03:50 PM
Absolutely no objection as long as they are called what they really are; which is external jujutsu movements and not being implied that they are part of the high level internal aiki that Ueshiba was renowned for.

Greg

You are contradicting yourself here.

This is what you said; "No one in the IP/IS group ever said that moving out of the way was not a valid martial movement; it can be done with or without aiki".

If you seriously mean this, then what could possibly be a valid objection of the IP/IS group against talking about this subject (aiki evasions)?

What you first called a "valid martial movement that can be done with or without Aiki", you now call external jujutsu movements?

And from this new definition you conclude that the IP/IS group does have objections if on a thread on Aiki web people discuss evations as part of their Aikido curriculum?

It seems to me that it is rather presumptious to deny people the right to talk about a subject that is part of Aikido as it is practiced all over the world.

And yes, evasion is part of the path of Aiki as set out by the founder.

It may not be part of how you or the IP/IS group would like to define Aiki, it is very well possible that you/they have come to a different conclusion.

But it should not interfere with the possibility for others to discuss the variations of evasion in Aikido or to compare these with other arts.

Tom

gregstec
12-25-2012, 05:18 PM
You are contradicting yourself here.

No contradiction at all if you understand what we are saying about aiki - as been mentioned elsewhere by others, simply evading an attack was not what Ueshiba was renowned for and was not what gave him his power; anyone can do that. However, there are those that imply aiki is as simple at that; this approach and viewpoint is what is objectionable. As I said before, IMO evasion is not aiki, has nothing to do with aiki, and is nothing really special that can be found in all martial arts and other athletic activities. If others choose to not look at it that way and are not interested in other viewpoints of aiki, that is fine, but if they present evasion as the one and only aiki, then we will feel obligated to disagree (with detail supporting our position) and let others know that there is another viewpoint for their consideration.

This is what you said; "No one in the IP/IS group ever said that moving out of the way was not a valid martial movement; it can be done with or without aiki".

If you seriously mean this, then what could possibly be a valid objection of the IP/IS group against talking about this subject (aiki evasions)?

What is 'aiki evasion'? - i thought we were talking about Evasion being Aiki.

What you first called a "valid martial movement that can be done with or without Aiki", you now call external jujutsu movements?

External jujutsu movements are valid martial movements and they can be done with the power of aiki or without; the movement is not the source of aiki.

And from this new definition you conclude that the IP/IS group does have objections if on a thread on Aiki web people discuss evations as part of their Aikido curriculum?

Not true, no objection to discussing - evasion and other external movements can be, and should be, part of an Aikido curriculum, but they are just waza.

It may not be part of how you or the IP/IS group would like to define Aiki, it is very well possible that you/they have come to a different conclusion.

Absolutely agree with that statement - and that is why we are having a difficult time expressing points because each side hears the term Aiki and applies their own meaning to it; which does not provide for common ground :)

But it should not interfere with the possibility for others to discuss the variations of evasion in Aikido or to compare these with other arts.

Never said they could not - a good example of the no common ground for discussion point mentioned previously.

Greg

Tom Verhoeven
12-25-2012, 09:04 PM
No contradiction at all if you understand what we are saying about aiki - as been mentioned elsewhere by others, simply evading an attack was not what Ueshiba was renowned for and was not what gave him his power; anyone can do that. However, there are those that imply aiki is as simple at that; this approach and viewpoint is what is objectionable. As I said before, IMO evasion is not aiki, has nothing to do with aiki, and is nothing really special that can be found in all martial arts and other athletic activities. If others choose to not look at it that way and are not interested in other viewpoints of aiki, that is fine, but if they present evasion as the one and only aiki, then we will feel obligated to disagree (with detail supporting our position) and let others know that there is another viewpoint for their consideration.

What is 'aiki evasion'? - i thought we were talking about Evasion being Aiki.

External jujutsu movements are valid martial movements and they can be done with the power of aiki or without; the movement is not the source of aiki.

Not true, no objection to discussing - evasion and other external movements can be, and should be, part of an Aikido curriculum, but they are just waza.

Absolutely agree with that statement - and that is why we are having a difficult time expressing points because each side hears the term Aiki and applies their own meaning to it; which does not provide for common ground :)

Never said they could not - a good example of the no common ground for discussion point mentioned previously.

Greg

This is what the OP stated;
"When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise"
He does not use the word "evasion" or "moving out of the way.
And neither did I in my first comment. The word "evasion" or as you put it "moving out of the way was introduced by proponents of IP/IS.
And after it was introduced, it was the IP/IS group who started to counterargument it.
That answers this point;
"What is 'aiki evasion'? - i thought we were talking about Evasion being Aiki".

The argument was never that evasion is the same as Aiki.

If I would use an evasive move then it could be called for lack of a better word an Aiki evasion (in my previous post I in fact only used the term to make sure we were talking about the same subject).
I disagree that anyone can do this. Learning to evade and to apply a technique takes a long time to learn properly.

As for waza - for the inexperienced waza is mostly form, for the experienced all waza contain / are based on Aiki.

As for differences in interpretation of the term Aiki, some may have a limited understanding of Aiki or mean something very specific with it or seeking only to apply it to a specific goal. Personally I have experienced Aiki over the decades in a much more broader perspective, which have made me look in a different way at other arts, nature-religions like Shinto and nature itself.
If each person tries to come with a clear description of what Aiki to him is, and if each person keeps an open mind then I think it must be possible to discuss it and to inspire each other.

It would therefore be interesting to see more examples of what people view as important or inspiring to them, then just the example that the OP gave.

Tom

gregstec
12-25-2012, 09:33 PM
This is what the OP stated;
"When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise"
He does not use the word "evasion" or "moving out of the way.
And neither did I in my first comment. The word "evasion" or as you put it "moving out of the way was introduced by proponents of IP/IS.
And after it was introduced, it was the IP/IS group who started to counterargument it.
That answers this point;
"What is 'aiki evasion'? - i thought we were talking about Evasion being Aiki".

The argument was never that evasion is the same as Aiki.

If I would use an evasive move then it could be called for lack of a better word an Aiki evasion (in my previous post I in fact only used the term to make sure we were talking about the same subject).
I disagree that anyone can do this. Learning to evade and to apply a technique takes a long time to learn properly.

As for waza - for the inexperienced waza is mostly form, for the experienced all waza contain / are based on Aiki.

As for differences in interpretation of the term Aiki, some may have a limited understanding of Aiki or mean something very specific with it or seeking only to apply it to a specific goal. Personally I have experienced Aiki over the decades in a much more broader perspective, which have made me look in a different way at other arts, nature-religions like Shinto and nature itself.
If each person tries to come with a clear description of what Aiki to him is, and if each person keeps an open mind then I think it must be possible to discuss it and to inspire each other.

It would therefore be interesting to see more examples of what people view as important or inspiring to them, then just the example that the OP gave.

Tom

Tom, the OP used a video of athletes evading other athletes and implied it was high level aiki in his opinion; that is what led to the posts about aiki in this thread.

As mentioned, you and I have very different views on what aiki is and we have no common ground on this subject - it is also appears English is not your first language and a lot of your interpretations of what is being posted here do not comes across as related to the context of what was posted - therefore, I see further discussion on this subject with you useless - have a happy holiday season.

Greg

sorokod
12-26-2012, 06:35 AM
Absolutely no objection as long as they are called what they really are; which is external jujutsu movements and not being implied that they are part of the high level internal aiki that Ueshiba was renowned for.


some more "external jujutsu movements":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDa6gvOoR4#t=01h11m23s (about 1:11:23 time mark)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDa6gvOoR4#t=01h12m14s (about 1:12:14 time mark)

MM
12-26-2012, 07:15 AM
This is what the OP stated;
"When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise"
He does not use the word "evasion" or "moving out of the way.
And neither did I in my first comment. The word "evasion" or as you put it "moving out of the way was introduced by proponents of IP/IS.


OP video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rroRNqBaF4w

My video link of Ueshiba:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

Let's start with OPV (OP Video) at the 0:08-0:10 second mark. Evading. Pure and simple. Receiver is actively and purposefully trying not to get grabbed, trying to break free, and trying to misdirect the "attackers" so that they lunge to grab in a place where the receiver isn't.

Look at UV (Ueshiba video) at the 3:10-3:35 mark. Ueshiba enters, Ueshiba wants the attacker to grab him, Ueshiba doesn't evade. The attackers go in various directions because Ueshiba completely controls them through physical contact. Ueshiba does not use misdirection at all.

Now, look at 6:03-6:24. Do you see Ueshiba trying to misdirect his attackers so that they fall into each other? Instead, Ueshiba tosses them left and right through power and control.

I think you should have a conversation with Chis Hein over what he meant by the posted video. Look at what Mary posted:
Thank Chris...I especially loved when he pulled up and they ran into each other.
and Chris replied
Yeah, I was pretty impressed by that myself!! What a great idea, using their force against them, all the ball carrier had to do was to understand what the attackers wanted to do, and he used their minds against them, effortlessly! This is the kind of thing that makes Aiki, and Aikido so interesting to me!!

So, deceiving someone and evading their attack is "aiki". The receiver used timing to step out of the way from being grabbed and let the two "attackers" run into each other. He deceived them by not being where they expected him to be and evaded their attack. Go back to the Ueshiba video and point out where Ueshiba actually does anything like this.


As for differences in interpretation of the term Aiki, some may have a limited understanding of Aiki or mean something very specific with it or seeking only to apply it to a specific goal. Personally I have experienced Aiki over the decades in a much more broader perspective, which have made me look in a different way at other arts, nature-religions like Shinto and nature itself.
If each person tries to come with a clear description of what Aiki to him is, and if each person keeps an open mind then I think it must be possible to discuss it and to inspire each other.

It would therefore be interesting to see more examples of what people view as important or inspiring to them, then just the example that the OP gave.

Tom

About the only two valid arguments in relation to this thread subject would be:

1. Ueshiba in 1935 was still doing Daito ryu and it wasn't aikido.
or
2. Kisshomaru changed the definition of "aiki" and that is what is being discussed.

Now, neither of those will stand up to close scrutiny, but at least they would be valid counter arguments. Otherwise, Morihei Ueshiba had very specific, defined definitions for aiki. It wasn't in a broader perspective.

MM
12-26-2012, 07:20 AM
some more "external jujutsu movements":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDa6gvOoR4#t=01h11m23s (about 1:11:23 time mark)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDa6gvOoR4#t=01h12m14s (about 1:12:14 time mark)

Great googly moogly. You're trying to equate not being stabbed/cut from a weapon with "evading" in football? Really?

Or is this just another example of "cherry picking". You seem to be in a habit of doing that in this thread and then denying it and saying it isn't important to your usage of cherry picking.

I think that me agreeing or disagreeing is not important. The important thing is that your work has integrity. More to the point, will you revisit your take on what is and isn't aiki in the light the quote?

Here it is again

The source is Aikido Journal, article is titled "Interview with Morihei Ueshiba published in Shukan Yomiuri in 1956". I believe that you need to be a member to view it on http://members.aikidojournal.com/private/morihei-ueshiba-2/

How about doing the research and actually coming up with valid points regarding Ueshiba's aiki as compared to Hein's "aiki". I say Hein's "aiki" because he has yet to explain where he came up with his definition. There are tons of information out there on Ueshiba's aiki and how Ueshiba defined it. The two do not match.

Mary Eastland
12-26-2012, 07:42 AM
Or how about training in Aikido and doing freestyle...then one can understand what Chris and Tom are talking about. It is different than what you are talking about. Redefining Aikido to fit what you are teaching is cutting out big parts of it. Randori is part of Aikido. Being able to move with and blend with your ukes is important. Citing authority and saying something a million times won't make it different.

By the way, Tom, I could understand what you wrote perfectly. I wish I could write so elegantly in a language other than my native language.

MM
12-26-2012, 08:00 AM
Or how about training in Aikido and doing freestyle...then one can understand what Chris and Tom are talking about.


Been there, done that. So, I have the experiences you're talking about *and* I have the experiences of training with "vetted" IP/aiki teachers *and* I have done the research. Have *you* trained with a "vetted" IP/aiki teacher. Have *you* done all the research? Can you go back through and actually use your research to uphold your ideals/theories/ideas? And not like David Soroko and just cherry picking one small quote, but actually finding multiple correlated items?


It is different than what you are talking about. Redefining Aikido to fit what you are teaching is cutting out big parts of it.


Yep, you bet it does. It's exactly the reason why most Modern Aikido lacks Ueshiba's aiki, why people around the globe think similarly to Chris Hein on "aiki", and why there has been a lack of modern day Ueshiba's, Shioda's, Tomiki's, Shirata's, Mochizuki's, etc. You keep redefining "aiki" to fit what you can do, rather than to define it how Ueshiba (and all his peers, his teacher, and various other martial greats) did.


Randori is part of Aikido. Being able to move with and blend with your ukes is important. Citing authority and saying something a million times won't make it different.


No one is arguing that randori isn't part of aikido. No one is saying that what Chris posted wasn't "important". It just isn't aiki. Can it be high level jujutsu? Sure. Can it be very effective? Absolutely. Is it aiki? No. If you have aiki, can you have the skills displayed by Chris' video? Sure. But, you can have them without aiki, too.

sorokod
12-26-2012, 08:03 AM
Great googly moogly. You're trying to equate not being stabbed/cut from a weapon with "evading" in football? Really?

Or is this just another example of "cherry picking". You seem to be in a habit of doing that in this thread and then denying it and saying it isn't important to your usage of cherry picking.

How about doing the research and actually coming up with valid points regarding Ueshiba's aiki as compared to Hein's "aiki". I say Hein's "aiki" because he has yet to explain where he came up with his definition. There are tons of information out there on Ueshiba's aiki and how Ueshiba defined it. The two do not match.

I think the relevant common theme in both videos is that opponents intent is manipulated.
Of course the goal in one case is to score points and in the other to subdue an attacker, somehow I think this is as relevant as that one video is in colour, and the other not. You decide what you focus on.

Naturally the founder employs various strategies in the Asahi film including the direct entry you pointed out. The examples I chose weren't meant to imply that the strategy demonstrated in them are in any way exclusive to anything else. I think that that is different from the conclusion you chose draw from http://members.aikidojournal.com/private/morihei-ueshiba-2/

Regarding "How about doing the research", please consider Russell's teapot ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot ).

By the way, as english not my first language, what does "Great googly moogly" means?

chillzATL
12-26-2012, 08:24 AM
Now, look at 6:03-6:24. Do you see Ueshiba trying to misdirect his attackers so that they fall into each other? Instead, Ueshiba tosses them left and right through power and control.

To be fair, Mark, in that 1935 video he doesn't do anything like that, but in later post-war vids he does a variety of things like that to throw his ukes.

It's also worth noting that Ueshiba in the 1935 video doesn't look or move quite like post-war Ueshiba. In the 1935 video he always keeps his body stretched and full. His arms have that almost stiff looking quality that guys like Shioda were known for and he obviously evolved/conditioned himself beyond the need for that in his later years.

If people want to call that misdirection and "catching" someone or their intent "aiki" why not just let them do it? Ueshiba didn't really seem to care too much as he did it himself and to some degree he seemed to approve of people practicing with that intention.

gregstec
12-26-2012, 08:32 AM
By the way, Tom, I could understand what you wrote perfectly. I wish I could write so elegantly in a language other than my native language.

Thanks for the indirect cheap shot :disgust:

My comment to Tom was objective and was mostly based on him interpreting 'Valid martial movement' and 'External Jujutsu movement' as being two different things with no relationship - there were other things as well, but that is a good example. To me, we were not communicating due to that as well as having no common ground on the aiki definition - nothing personal and nothing negative in my comments; why can't you be the same way.

Greg

sorokod
12-26-2012, 08:36 AM
If people want to call that misdirection and "catching" someone or their intent "aiki" why not just let them do it? Ueshiba didn't really seem to care too much as he did it himself and to some degree he seemed to approve of people practicing with that intention.

This is very reasonable especially given the quotes on this thread, the founder himself was saying that. To me, the strong emotional reluctance to "share" Aiki presented here, is most interesting.

Mary Eastland
12-26-2012, 09:21 AM
@ Mark: Thank you for your response...the thread has a different title than defining Aiki. I thought it was pertaining to Aikido because it was here and not in the thread about other arts.

gregstec
12-26-2012, 09:27 AM
If people want to call that misdirection and "catching" someone or their intent "aiki" why not just let them do it? Ueshiba didn't really seem to care too much as he did it himself and to some degree he seemed to approve of people practicing with that intention.

You are right, there is no reason why people cannot have their own view of aiki - the hard part for the IP/IS group is that they all have had similar views on aiki as the other parties, but now have experienced something different that explains (and can show) the unusual power of Ueshiba where their former views did not - it is hard not to share this so others have the option of learning more about it.

Greg

MM
12-26-2012, 09:48 AM
To be fair, Mark, in that 1935 video he doesn't do anything like that, but in later post-war vids he does a variety of things like that to throw his ukes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoDK3XuvZWw
Ueshiba enters. At 1:04, the subtitles, "invite him to approach, a breeze stirs. Slice it through!" Not, "trick them into approaching, a breeze stirs. Get out of the way!"


If people want to call that misdirection and "catching" someone or their intent "aiki" why not just let them do it? Ueshiba didn't really seem to care too much as he did it himself and to some degree he seemed to approve of people practicing with that intention.

Ueshiba didn't care? Do you have the relevant research to show that? Ueshiba vehemently denied he was a man of religion and that he was a man of budo. Storms into the dojo and says you're not doing my aikido. But, yet, he doesn't care? And approve?

As I was discussing with someone the other day, if a professional math teacher was teaching your child that 2+2=5 and that 4*4=1, would you want them teaching your child? Or as someone else provided, if a swimming instructor couldn't actually swim, didn't know how to swim, and had never swam, do you want to place your child's life in the hands of that instructor to learn how to swim?

Take this picture for example:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:POL_apple.jpg

I'm going to redefine what that is. I'm now going to call it an "orange". You should let me because even though I'm wrong, well, you don't seem to care about that. From now on, when I reference an orange, you'll just have to wonder if I mean the object in the picture or an actual real orange. Seems fair to me. Every opinion is valid. Everyone gets to redefine whatever they want so that everyone gets an A. New York City, The Big Orange.

Sort of over the top, but do you get the picture I'm painting? Ueshiba had very defined views on aiki. If you're a professional aikido teacher, you would think that you'd at least try to understand, train, and do what the very founder of your art was doing.

Krystal Locke
12-26-2012, 09:51 AM
I have never wanted so badly to holler.

GIRLS! You're BOTH pretty.

MM
12-26-2012, 09:53 AM
@ Mark: Thank you for your response...the thread has a different title than defining Aiki. I thought it was pertaining to Aikido because it was here and not in the thread about other arts.

I read the title and the first post. To quote:

"Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise. When I saw this video clip, it was a great example of what I would describe as Aiki."

It was a thread about defining aiki. If that's not what this thread was about, then I apologize for being off topic. But, it's hard not to take it that way, when you read the original post.

I guess if you don't think it's about defining aiki, then I'll ask Chris Hein just what his thread was about. So, Chris Hein, what was this thread about?

Demetrio Cereijo
12-26-2012, 09:59 AM
You are right, there is no reason why people cannot have their own view of aiki - the hard part for the IP/IS group is that they all have had similar views on aiki as the other parties, but now have experienced something different that explains (and can show) the unusual power of Ueshiba where their former views did not - it is hard not to share this so others have the option of learning more about it.

Greg

Regarding the unusual power of Ueshiba, Homma Gaku Sensei has an interesting explanation:

Speaking from experience, I can relate my feelings about being an uchideshi and uke to the Founder, Morihei Ueshiba. Perhaps only those students who actually practiced with the Founder will truly understand my feelings. As full-time students of the Founder, our respect for him was of course paramount. Especially towards the end of his life, if the Founder asked his students to "push against him as hard as they could", there was not one student among us who could do that. It was not that we were not able to physically push him, it was that we couldn't.

At the age of eighty-six, the Founder commanded so much respect for his life and accomplishments, that no student of any rank, even 7th or 8th dan, were able to breach this level of respect. Beyond the obvious differences in rank and experience, I feel this was part of the true "Ki" power the Founder possessed. It is understandable when looking at old photos of the Founder resisting the efforts of ten students pushing on his body to think it looks like magic. As one who was there, his power was derived from his presence, not from magic. At the height of his physical prowess, I have no doubt that he used technique to keep students from overpowering him. I attribute his powers at the age of 86 to real "Sensei power", the personal power he possessed after a life time of hardships and accomplishments. Not only in the world of Martial arts, leaders world --wide who have reached this level command this type of respect from those around them.
http://www.nippon-kan.org/abroad/scotland/sensei_ki_scotland.html

Mary Eastland
12-26-2012, 10:05 AM
I read the title and the first post. To quote:

"Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise. When I saw this video clip, it was a great example of what I would describe as Aiki."

It was a thread about defining aiki. If that's not what this thread was about, then I apologize for being off topic. But, it's hard not to take it that way, when you read the original post.

I guess if you don't think it's about defining aiki, then I'll ask Chris Hein just what his thread was about. So, Chris Hein, what was this thread about?

Hi Mark:
I agree...that is how I define what we do. I think Krystal is right. :cool:

gregstec
12-26-2012, 10:48 AM
Regarding the unusual power of Ueshiba, Homma Gaku Sensei has an interesting explanation:

Speaking from experience, I can relate my feelings about being an uchideshi and uke to the Founder, Morihei Ueshiba. Perhaps only those students who actually practiced with the Founder will truly understand my feelings. As full-time students of the Founder, our respect for him was of course paramount. Especially towards the end of his life, if the Founder asked his students to "push against him as hard as they could", there was not one student among us who could do that. It was not that we were not able to physically push him, it was that we couldn't.

At the age of eighty-six, the Founder commanded so much respect for his life and accomplishments, that no student of any rank, even 7th or 8th dan, were able to breach this level of respect. Beyond the obvious differences in rank and experience, I feel this was part of the true "Ki" power the Founder possessed. It is understandable when looking at old photos of the Founder resisting the efforts of ten students pushing on his body to think it looks like magic. As one who was there, his power was derived from his presence, not from magic. At the height of his physical prowess, I have no doubt that he used technique to keep students from overpowering him. I attribute his powers at the age of 86 to real "Sensei power", the personal power he possessed after a life time of hardships and accomplishments. Not only in the world of Martial arts, leaders world --wide who have reached this level command this type of respect from those around them.
http://www.nippon-kan.org/abroad/scotland/sensei_ki_scotland.html

I have read Homma's stuff and agree that is probably what his perspective would have been from his experience later in Ueshiba's life. Other Uchideshi also talked about taking it easy on the old man later in his life as well, but none of that explains what was going on early in his life when non-students of other arts were amazed by his power - those people did not have any reason to hold back on anything. Ueshiba's peers during those early days such as Sagawa and Horikowa had the same reputation for unusual power.

Greg

Janet Rosen
12-26-2012, 11:04 AM
You are right, there is no reason why people cannot have their own view of aiki - the hard part for the IP/IS group is that they all have had similar views on aiki as the other parties, but now have experienced something different that explains (and can show) the unusual power of Ueshiba where their former views did not - it is hard not to share this so others have the option of learning more about it.

Greg

Greg, thank you. I'm NOT singling you out, or anybody in particular, when I say that as a lurker on this thread my reaction is that"sharing this so others have the option..." is very different from the bludgeoning tone I'm reading in this thread. I don't feel like I'm reading reasoned arguements no matter how much "evidence" by way of video links either side posts; it feels like reading an utterly pointless shouting match.

Janet Rosen
12-26-2012, 11:05 AM
To be fair, Mark, in that 1935 video he doesn't do anything like that, but in later post-war vids he does a variety of things like that to throw his ukes.

It's also worth noting that Ueshiba in the 1935 video doesn't look or move quite like post-war Ueshiba. In the 1935 video he always keeps his body stretched and full. His arms have that almost stiff looking quality that guys like Shioda were known for and he obviously evolved/conditioned himself beyond the need for that in his later years.

If people want to call that misdirection and "catching" someone or their intent "aiki" why not just let them do it? Ueshiba didn't really seem to care too much as he did it himself and to some degree he seemed to approve of people practicing with that intention.

Thank you for a moment of lucidity in a very odd thread.:)

akiy
12-26-2012, 11:33 AM
Hi folks,

I am closing this thread (perhaps temporarily, perhaps permanently) to review its content, tone, and direction.

I've been out of town and otherwise indisposed and super busy for the past little while, so I'm getting to this doing a bit late. To say the very least, I can't say I'm very pleased with some of what I am reading here.

-- Jun

chillzATL
12-26-2012, 11:48 AM
I was just about to post my reply when Jun closed the thread. If he chooses to re-open it, hopefully he can merge my reply back into it:


Ueshiba didn't care? Do you have the relevant research to show that? Ueshiba vehemently denied he was a man of religion and that he was a man of budo. Storms into the dojo and says you're not doing my aikido. But, yet, he doesn't care? And approve?

From what I've read and seen here, I have just as much relevant research as you do. We can go into that elsewhere if you'd like. You reuse the "this is not my aikido" quote like it exists in a vacuum and we don't have anything else to read or look at from the man. We have videos of him laughing and taking falls for kids as he teaches them Kokyunage. Are we to believe that they were doing "his aikido" and he approved of that, yet disapproved of everything else that was going on at hombu? We have examples of him awarding rank to random people because they had good aiki. Are we to honestly believe that they were exhibiting the full set of skills that he had or that he saw just enough of a hint of something in them that he felt like recognizing it? For someone who had such clearly defined views on what aiki was, he sure seemed to find aiki in a lot of places and it can't be because what they were doing lined up perfectly with what he was doing. Heck, just look at Tohei, the man whom he bestowed the proverbial brass ring upon. Anyone who does IS/IP training long enough can pretty clearly see that Tohei's skill set, not his techniques, is missing some of what Ueshiba did. Even if you don't understand what, you can see it in how they move and Tohei seems much more linearly driven than Ueshiba. He also had other students who were going out calling aiki this or that and he knew of it and whether he approved or not, he sure never seems to have pulled any of them to the side and said "psst, hey, I really like you, so I want to tell you that this crap you're spreading, isn't really aiki. Check this out". He saw that many of them were chasing that external, deceptive, "catch them unaware" thing and calling it aiki and he let it slide? That's hard for me to buy personally. Especially considering that he seemed to have some genuine relationships with some students, people he liked and felt some sort of connection too, yet here they are out spreading aiki that is significantly different than his own and he, being unhappy about it, doesn't bother to correct them? again, hard to buy.

The bouncing ball of logic suggests to me that his views of what was or was not aiki were, at least in his later life, not as clearly defined or set in stone as selected quotes might indicate or at the very least he was willing to accept things as aiki that were similar but different to his own.

Sort of over the top, but do you get the picture I'm painting? Ueshiba had very defined views on aiki. If you're a professional aikido teacher, you would think that you'd at least try to understand, train, and do what the very founder of your art was doing.

I get the point you're driving at, but I don't think this is quite an apples to apples comparison, for the reasons I've outlined above.

akiy
12-26-2012, 12:37 PM
Please, let's keep from "adding" posts to already closed threads in the future.

Thanks,

-- Jun