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camt
12-06-2012, 05:25 PM
In the dojo, kotegaeshi seems to be easily applied and very effective. However, I was trying to show my friend the other day and it was extremely difficult to bend his wrist. He was naturally tensed up and expecting pain but I didn't think it would be so easy to prevent application by merely flexing forearm strength. Any help/tips appreciated!

robin_jet_alt
12-06-2012, 06:19 PM
Well the issue there is that the wrist twist is actually a small part of what makes the technique work. The real trick is to get your uke in a position where you can settle your weight over a point where they can be unbalanced. The "lock" really just serves as a mechanism to maintain connection with uke's centre.

I think this picture illustrates my point:

http://members.aikidojournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/morihei-ueshiba-budo-kotegaeshi.jpg

Janet Rosen
12-06-2012, 06:24 PM
You don't have to bend the wrist at all, really...it's an unbalancing of the whole person, and is based on the actual energy of the attack (you can't really "do it" to somebody who is standing there staring at you)...and when you are first learning it, it "works" in the dojo because your partners are giving their centers to you on purpose so you can practice it, just like you have to practice speaking a foreign language or driving a car, errors and all, as a beginner.

camt
12-06-2012, 06:44 PM
Well the issue there is that the wrist twist is actually a small part of what makes the technique work. The real trick is to get your uke in a position where you can settle your weight over a point where they can be unbalanced. The "lock" really just serves as a mechanism to maintain connection with uke's centre.

I think this picture illustrates my point:

http://members.aikidojournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/morihei-ueshiba-budo-kotegaeshi.jpg

That's an awesome picture! Thanks for that.

It definitely unbalanced him when I applied it but it was difficult to get him to go to the ground with it. I see what you're saying, but it feels so unnatural when I couldn't get that bend that I'm used to. I'll keep practicing!

Michael Varin
12-06-2012, 08:22 PM
Cameron,

The next time you try kote gaeshi on your friend, don't say anything, just grab him off-hand and throw with kote gaeshi, and see what happens.

If you pay close attention to what was different and the possibilites as to why it was different, I think you will pick up on some "secrets" that will guide you in your training.

Just out of curiosity, how long have you been training?

camt
12-06-2012, 10:23 PM
I've only been training since September. So yeah I need a lot more practice time and I'll be asking my sensei for some help with it.

Any suggestions are welcome: I'm really curious to hear what other peoples experiences have been when they encounter people with strong wrists that do not bend easily.

ChrisHein
12-06-2012, 10:24 PM
Aikido techniques flow one into the next. If someone knows an Aikido technique is coming, it will not be difficult for them to resist. However when you use the techniques together they will work nicely. A good technique to use along side kotegaeshi is rokyo. Here is an example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.aikidostudent.com/oldasc/content/?p=301

Hope this is useful.

Mark Gibbons
12-06-2012, 11:28 PM
From the aikido dark side.

Offer your victim something to take from your hand. Take their balance as they reach for the object. Kotegaesh follows fairly easily. I've heard it even works while sitting in an office chair on wheels.

Michael Varin
12-07-2012, 12:24 AM
Great video, Chris.

Time flies!

And...

Cameron,

You're only about three months in. I wouldn't worry too much about demostrating aikido waza to your friends right now.

As you improve you will develop the ability to "force" techniques on people, but Like Chris and others said, that's not really the goal, and in many respects is a very limited strategy.

JJF
12-07-2012, 01:42 AM
Cameron,

The next time you try kote gaeshi on your friend, don't say anything, just grab him off-hand and throw with kote gaeshi, and see what happens.

If you pay close attention to what was different and the possibilites as to why it was different, I think you will pick up on some "secrets" that will guide you in your training.

Just out of curiosity, how long have you been training?

uhmm... I think I would refrain from forcing anybody who are not trained in ukemi to take a kotegashi fall. Especially if it's outside of the dojo. Quite a big risk of hurting them badly.

Apart from that I think Michael is right. The 'tensing up' that will follow from the expectation that something is about to happen that may include pain will ruin any aikido technique. The thing is - as I see it - aikido dosen't really work unless uke is comitted to the attack, and that situation is just impossible to reproduce outside of the dojo unless it is an actual fight. Disclaimer: I am NOT encouraging you to pick a fight with your friends ind order to demonstrate Aikido ;)

Point is - it takes a long time of practicing with reduced power and speed and a lot of cooperation before aikido becomes fluent and effective. We learn to react to the locks and that is what makes it safe for us to practice on the mat at high pace. If applied full speed on an attacker that is comitted to attacking you will most likely result in serious damage to him (or you if you don't get out of the way).

I rarely demonstrate anything on non-aikido people anymore except from nikkyo and yonkyo. It is not techniques that by them selves really show the essence of Aikido, but they can be applied with moderation and proves some aspects of the effectiveness of aikido.

My advice: get your friend to come to the dojo for a few months and try it out.

Have a great day

JJ

grondahl
12-07-2012, 07:43 AM
uhmm... I think I would refrain from forcing anybody who are not trained in ukemi to take a kotegashi fall. Especially if it's outside of the dojo. Quite a big risk of hurting them badly.


I find that kotegaeshi is a technique that you can apply rather vigorously even on beginners if you dont focus on the wrist twisting. After all, the "fall" is only a balance break from standing and you can dampen the impact with the arm you are controlling.

phitruong
12-07-2012, 09:27 AM
there should be new aikido student rule:

do not try what you learned in aikido on your friends, family, significant others, neighbors, pets, aliens from outer space, and/or others not listed here without your teacher(s) consent

Marc Abrams
12-07-2012, 09:35 AM
there should be new aikido student rule:

do not try what you learned in aikido on your friends, family, significant others, neighbors, pets, aliens from outer space, and/or others not listed here without your teacher(s) consent

Phi:

I have officially hired you as the caretaker of the elephant in the room......;) .

What he said..........

Marc Abrams

MM
12-07-2012, 10:33 AM
In the dojo, kotegaeshi seems to be easily applied and very effective. However, I was trying to show my friend the other day and it was extremely difficult to bend his wrist. He was naturally tensed up and expecting pain but I didn't think it would be so easy to prevent application by merely flexing forearm strength. Any help/tips appreciated!

Unfortunately, you just discovered one of the major shortcomings of Modern Aikido training: The "ukemi" model. You are trained to give up your center and fall in a specific manner. So, everything is going to work fairly well in the dojo. Everyone gets trained to do this.

If anyone disagrees, then try this and report back:

1. Get a teen wrestler with no aikido experience and try kotegaeshi, allowing the teen to use wrestling experience.

2. Get a BJJ practitioner and do the same.

3. Get a Judo practitioner and do the same.

4. Get a Karate/TKD practitioner and do the same.

5. Get an average Joe/Jane off the street and tell them to try not to comply and try it.

6. Get a Boxer and do the same.

Did any of them fall like a "normal" aikido practitioner? Or did a lot of other things happen?

Now, before you start in on all the rationalizations and excuses and explanations, answer the question on why Ueshiba could get 1-6 to work just fine, why everyone who trained with Ueshiba had to learn their own way of "ukemi" to protect themselves (they weren't taught by Ueshiba to roll and fall), and why this was also the case from the mid-late 1920s on ...

The modern "ukemi" model in Modern Aikido is a big problem.

Cliff Judge
12-07-2012, 10:48 AM
Aikido people tend to translate kotegaeshi as "wrist twist."

A better translation would be "forearm turn".

The wrist itself has little to do with it.

Mario Tobias
12-07-2012, 11:59 AM
The thing is - as I see it - aikido dosen't really work unless uke is comitted to the attack, and that situation is just impossible to reproduce outside of the dojo unless it is an actual fight.

JJ

I've got different view on this one. The thing is one of the most difficult goals in aikido IMO is to make aikido work even with a non-committed partner. Saying such, I only really know the tip of the iceberg of what aikido has to offer. The beauty with this art is that sometimes it borders on the magical. You just get surprised you suddenly can do neat tricks after a few decades practice without understanding why and how you can do this. IMHO, we should not limit ourselves only to what we think are the possibilities with this art but seek what the art to really has to offer even though we think it impossible at first.

camt
12-07-2012, 12:21 PM
Unfortunately, you just discovered one of the major shortcomings of Modern Aikido training: The "ukemi" model. You are trained to give up your center and fall in a specific manner. So, everything is going to work fairly well in the dojo. Everyone gets trained to do this.

If anyone disagrees, then try this and report back:

1. Get a teen wrestler with no aikido experience and try kotegaeshi, allowing the teen to use wrestling experience.

2. Get a BJJ practitioner and do the same.

3. Get a Judo practitioner and do the same.

4. Get a Karate/TKD practitioner and do the same.

5. Get an average Joe/Jane off the street and tell them to try not to comply and try it.

6. Get a Boxer and do the same.

Did any of them fall like a "normal" aikido practitioner? Or did a lot of other things happen?

Now, before you start in on all the rationalizations and excuses and explanations, answer the question on why Ueshiba could get 1-6 to work just fine, why everyone who trained with Ueshiba had to learn their own way of "ukemi" to protect themselves (they weren't taught by Ueshiba to roll and fall), and why this was also the case from the mid-late 1920s on ...

The modern "ukemi" model in Modern Aikido is a big problem.

Kotegaeshi was not working well against his strength but I did get a sankyo from a collar grab that had him spinning like mad on the floor. He's a trained wrestler and has some BJJ training; he actually tried to spin in for an arm bar on me. We did this in my living room so there wasn't enough space to pin him properly but I think I had him; and he admitted that he liked sankyo.

Just a disclaimer: were two very old friends and have been doing this stuff (wresling/goofing around) for many many years. We both know the risks and were just having fun.

Interesting comments to all of the above: I've learned quite a bit, thank you.

Mario Tobias
12-07-2012, 12:26 PM
It's easy to do kotegaeshi for someone with a locked wrist.

3 principles you need to know

1. If you can't move a part (either uke's or your own, like being held), do not attempt to move that part. Move whatever part you can move and start from there.
In the case of a locked wrist in kotegaeshi (assuming the arm is in front of him since it's the strongest position), move/stretch his shoulder so that his arm is now to his side. The more that his arm is to the side of him, the weaker is his wrist. The more the arm is in front of uke, the stronger the wrist. Look again at osensei's picture. You can do this static with the slowest of motions. Interesting experiment.

2. Every joint is connected to another joint. If one joint is locked, do not attempt to do a technique on that joint ( unless you're uber advanced), attack the next or next 2 joints. In this case. you can attack the elbow or the shoulder as the pointer above.

3. Take uke's mind. When uke locks on a joint, his mind is focused on that joint. You need to briefly distract him to remove his focus on that joint. This can be done 3 ways.
a. A slap/atemi on the face b. attacking another joint c. unbalancing him, in this case his focused is shifted to regaining his balance of course. IMHO, this is more important as a prerequisite prior to doing the technique. If this doesn't exist, you can't do the technique properly.

Hope this helps.

camt
12-07-2012, 12:29 PM
I assume people have seen the Anderson Silva training video with Steven Seagal. He gives Anderson a few kotegaeshis(plural form?) with ease; albeit Anderson isn't ready for it.

Check out the vid if you haven't the first one is at 3:40ish:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1jIlljXq2Y

ChrisHein
12-07-2012, 02:11 PM
I think if you and your friend are able people and understand the natural risks of rough housing, it's great to try Aikido technique outside of the Dojo. I learned lot's and lots from doing this, I've also never broken anyones anything outside of the Dojo. Be smart, and figure out how your techniques work.

Aikido doesn't need anything extra to work, that you're not going to learn from 90% of the Aikido teachers out there. However you do need to take the time and figure out how you can use your techniques, that requires trying them, a lot, on lots of different people. Before you know it Aikido will seem simple and effective!

Good luck!!

Conrad Gus
12-07-2012, 04:35 PM
Cameron,

You train at UVic right? Ask Jason about different ways to do Kotegaeshi against resistance. He can show you first hand what you are looking for.

Cheers,

Conrad

robin_jet_alt
12-07-2012, 08:27 PM
I assume people have seen the Anderson Silva training video with Steven Seagal. He gives Anderson a few kotegaeshis(plural form?) with ease; albeit Anderson isn't ready for it.

Check out the vid if you haven't the first one is at 3:40ish:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1jIlljXq2Y

Notice the angle on the kotegaeshi at 3:40. It is behind Silva, not in front of him.

camt
12-08-2012, 12:33 PM
Cameron,

You train at UVic right? Ask Jason about different ways to do Kotegaeshi against resistance. He can show you first hand what you are looking for.

Cheers,

Conrad

Yes indeed, and will do.

Michael Varin
12-09-2012, 02:37 AM
Unfortunately, you just discovered one of the major shortcomings of Modern Aikido training: The "ukemi" model. You are trained to give up your center and fall in a specific manner. So, everything is going to work fairly well in the dojo. Everyone gets trained to do this.

If anyone disagrees, then try this and report back:

1. Get a teen wrestler with no aikido experience and try kotegaeshi, allowing the teen to use wrestling experience.

2. Get a BJJ practitioner and do the same.

3. Get a Judo practitioner and do the same.

4. Get a Karate/TKD practitioner and do the same.

5. Get an average Joe/Jane off the street and tell them to try not to comply and try it.

6. Get a Boxer and do the same.

Did any of them fall like a "normal" aikido practitioner? Or did a lot of other things happen?

Now, before you start in on all the rationalizations and excuses and explanations, answer the question on why Ueshiba could get 1-6 to work just fine, why everyone who trained with Ueshiba had to learn their own way of "ukemi" to protect themselves (they weren't taught by Ueshiba to roll and fall), and why this was also the case from the mid-late 1920s on ...

The modern "ukemi" model in Modern Aikido is a big problem.

1 - 6? No problem. I could kote gaeshi people from any of those groups.

I've done aikido for a long time. I've gotten good at what I do.

Did any of those people fall like someone trained in aikido? Do I care? Or could I effect the technique? What are you even asking?

Could Ueshiba really? Have you seen it?

Did taekwondo even exist? I know BJJ didn't, so it's safe to say Ueshiba never applied anything on any BJJ practioner!

How do you know Ueshiba didn't teach ukemi? What is your direct experience with that?

Are you aware of the fact that martial arts like wrestling, judo, BJJ, and MMA used something like the nage-uke model to teach techniques? You must be, right?

Bill Danosky
10-03-2013, 03:29 PM
Can't say for all styles, but in Yoshinkan it's hard to get Kote Gaeshi unless you can get uke to take at least one step. There is a noteable exception, because Kote Gaeshi is one of the few techniques we have that can be applied from the inside. That works at contact distance, but it's a harsh one to practice.

Steven
10-03-2013, 05:52 PM
Can't say for all styles, but in Yoshinkan it's hard to get Kote Gaeshi unless you can get uke to take at least one step. There is a noteable exception, because Kote Gaeshi is one of the few techniques we have that can be applied from the inside. That works at contact distance, but it's a harsh one to practice.

Really?!? We don't have that problem.

Bill Danosky
10-03-2013, 09:26 PM
Maybe we are doing it wrong- we usually take uke on a short trip before his fall. We drag him out a step past his balance on Ichi (linear) techniques and halfway around the block on Ni (turning). They get sick of going one direction just in time for the punch in the face and reversal.

Guess I don't have to explain ichi and ni to you, Miranda Sensei!

Bill Danosky
10-03-2013, 09:34 PM
Really?!? We don't have that problem.
I'm probably not alone in wanting to hear if something can be improved there. Access is one of the biggest benefits of a forum like this.

Steven
10-04-2013, 08:58 PM
Maybe we are doing it wrong- we usually take uke on a short trip before his fall. We drag him out a step past his balance on Ichi (linear) techniques and halfway around the block on Ni (turning). They get sick of going one direction just in time for the punch in the face and reversal.

Guess I don't have to explain ichi and ni to you, Miranda Sensei!

Not wrong. Just different. :)

Steven
10-04-2013, 08:59 PM
I'm probably not alone in wanting to hear if something can be improved there. Access is one of the biggest benefits of a forum like this.

I prefer a real dojo with a live body myself. Come visit us the weekend of 10/18-19 for our annual seminar here in Sacramento. :)

Bill Danosky
10-05-2013, 10:28 AM
I prefer a real dojo with a live body myself. Come visit us the weekend of 10/18-19 for our annual seminar here in Sacramento. :)
Me, too. But I have been trying to get to California for 20 years and haven't made it yet. I get as far as the Rocky mountains and my vacation time just leaks away.

Thank you for the invitation. We have hosted Robert Mustard, Joe Thambu and Jim Jeannette Senseis. Amos Parker Shihan used to come to Indianapolis sometimes, but we will not be taking those lessons again, sadly. That was all before Kit Hathaway Sensei transferred to Atlanta, GA. So we will probably be travelling for training from here out. I would love to have your signature on my Yoshinkan Card.

Steven
10-06-2013, 09:13 PM
Me, too. But I have been trying to get to California for 20 years and haven't made it yet. I get as far as the Rocky mountains and my vacation time just leaks away.

Thank you for the invitation. We have hosted Robert Mustard, Joe Thambu and Jim Jeannette Senseis. Amos Parker Shihan used to come to Indianapolis sometimes, but we will not be taking those lessons again, sadly. That was all before Kit Hathaway Sensei transferred to Atlanta, GA. So we will probably be travelling for training from here out. I would love to have your signature on my Yoshinkan Card.

Visited Kit earlier this year. But this is about kotogaeshi so I won't hijack the thread. You're welcome anytime you can make it.

Cliff Judge
10-07-2013, 07:37 AM
Maybe we are doing it wrong- we usually take uke on a short trip before his fall. We drag him out a step past his balance on Ichi (linear) techniques and halfway around the block on Ni (turning). They get sick of going one direction just in time for the punch in the face and reversal.

Guess I don't have to explain ichi and ni to you, Miranda Sensei!

Do you atemi or something else to "break his intent" before you try to lead him off balance?

Because I think sometimes atemi puts uke back on balance.

Bill Danosky
10-07-2013, 11:49 AM
Do you atemi or something else to "break his intent" before you try to lead him off balance? Because I think sometimes atemi puts uke back on balance.

Yeah, that can happen. We typically use two atemis in Kote Gaeshi- One on the entry and one after the turn (whether it's a pivot or body change). I believe the rationale is that most people are going to recoil from a strong strike to the face, which begins the kuzushi. Another reason may be that it gives them something to think about while you are getting your wristlock firmed up.

Basia Halliop
10-07-2013, 12:53 PM
Isn't the purpose of the wrist twist to lock the wrist up and take out the slack so you can use it to connect to the core (via the elbow then shoulder, etc), more or less? In which case uke making their wrist stiff does part of your work for you and you can just skip that step...?? Why would it make it harder?

Bill Danosky
10-07-2013, 01:46 PM
Isn't the purpose of the wrist twist to lock the wrist up and take out the slack so you can use it to connect to the core (via the elbow then shoulder, etc), more or less? In which case uke making their wrist stiff does part of your work for you and you can just skip that step...?? Why would it make it harder?

Not sure if you're asking me, but here's my opinion just in case: That is more true of Nikka jo/Nikyo, but regardless, don't skip any steps. I believe Kote Gaeshi is translated as more of a "forearm return" than a wrist twist, if a concept is helpful to you.

No matter what he does, commit to the completion of the technique. If uke tenses his arm and wrist, that usually means he is going to sit down and roll, instead of taking the full breakfall. IMO, that's a good way to practice it because it's probably going to turn out that way more often (with non-ukes).

Adam Huss
10-16-2013, 09:46 AM
Yeah, that can happen. We typically use two atemis in Kote Gaeshi- One on the entry and one after the turn (whether it's a pivot or body change). I believe the rationale is that most people are going to recoil from a strong strike to the face, which begins the kuzushi. Another reason may be that it gives them something to think about while you are getting your wristlock firmed up.

Bill,

I am a little confused about your description of dual atemi in kotegaeshi. I have two questions for you; which kotegaeshi variations are you using two atemi (please just list them via your dojo terminology), and do all your kotegeashi #2 involve an atemi before pivoting?

Thanks!

Adam

Adam Huss
10-16-2013, 09:55 AM
Do you atemi or something else to "break his intent" before you try to lead him off balance?

Because I think sometimes atemi puts uke back on balance.

I feel like if you hit someone in the face with your atemi they will probably not be put back in balance, rather that can create a 'suki' or gap in their balance that can create an opportunity for nage to exploit and safely make their first movement. Granted we don't want to hit someone in the face so stoutly they move too much. When they, hopefully, block I like to drive my atemi into the block to start taking them off balance. I always atemi for the face/eyes because it obfuscates uke's vision and, when they block, you can drive your hand into their blocking hand...thus pushing his head/shoulder girdle area behind his hips. This is also why I always telegraph my atemi...which gets uke thinking about that atemi vice what you are really trying to play with.

But I agree that atemi can disrupt the flow of a technique if applied incorrectly, effectively putting uke back in balance. I feel like atemi is often overlooked in teaching and students just apply it a la 'monkey see monkey do' without understanding the how and why of its mechanics.

Bill Danosky
10-16-2013, 10:04 AM
I will have to think about whether this is an all-inclusive rule. I'll stipulate to an exception, since there is always at least one. But yes, we almost always use two atemis in Kote Gaeshi. When we intercept an attack*, we backfist to the face (I prefer the pie-in-the-face, personally), then again right before we execute the throw. This keeps a hostile uke from punching us after the return, or pivot. Also, it gives us a moment to make sure we have the kote.

*For most ichi techniques, Shite initiates with an atemi.

Adam Huss
10-16-2013, 10:07 AM
Isn't the purpose of the wrist twist to lock the wrist up and take out the slack so you can use it to connect to the core (via the elbow then shoulder, etc), more or less? In which case uke making their wrist stiff does part of your work for you and you can just skip that step...?? Why would it make it harder?

Not everyone applies kotegaishi in this manner. Some practitioners treat it more in a manner which I would call kokyunage, where they are drawing uke's wrist away from their center, then about/above shoulder height, then out away and down. Hard to explain, and rough to fall from.

Generally I apply wrist manipulations in the manner you are talking about (vice pain compliance). A good training tool is having your uke stand, make a fist, stand statically, and hold their arm solidly as you try to apply kotegaeshi. You probably won't be able to get everyone in your dojo, but its good training and helps understand how the actual technique works. This is interesting practice because you will (or should) meet much resistance and failure while expending a lot of effort. When playing around with your micro-adjustments, you will happen upon the 'sweet spot' (to borrow a term from the nikkyo thread) and uke will drop unexpectedly, quickly, and effortlessly.

Adam Huss
10-16-2013, 10:22 AM
I will have to think about whether this is an all-inclusive rule. I'll stipulate to an exception, since there is always at least one. But yes, we almost always use two atemis in Kote Gaeshi. When we intercept an attack*, we backfist to the face (I prefer the pie-in-the-face, personally), then again right before we execute the throw. This keeps a hostile uke from punching us after the return, or pivot. Also, it gives us a moment to make sure we have the kote.

*For most ichi techniques, Shite initiates with an atemi.

Got it, you are counting shomenuchi dai ichi as an atemi.

Quick question before we get too 'in the weeds.' For (kihon waza) Shomenuchi Kotegaeshi dai ni, are you initiating with a front strike to uke before your pivot shift, or are you pivoting and blending with uke's strike as you make your initial pivot shift? I just looked at some clips online and I'm seeing some variances. The second part of the technique all looks congruent; the slide out, pivot, atemi, pivot, throw...I just mean the first part (of #2).

Thanks again!

Cliff Judge
10-16-2013, 10:37 AM
I feel like if you hit someone in the face with your atemi they will probably not be put back in balance, rather that can create a 'suki' or gap in their balance that can create an opportunity for nage to exploit and safely make their first movement. Granted we don't want to hit someone in the face so stoutly they move too much. When they, hopefully, block I like to drive my atemi into the block to start taking them off balance. I always atemi for the face/eyes because it obfuscates uke's vision and, when they block, you can drive your hand into their blocking hand...thus pushing his head/shoulder girdle area behind his hips. This is also why I always telegraph my atemi...which gets uke thinking about that atemi vice what you are really trying to play with.

But I agree that atemi can disrupt the flow of a technique if applied incorrectly, effectively putting uke back in balance. I feel like atemi is often overlooked in teaching and students just apply it a la 'monkey see monkey do' without understanding the how and why of its mechanics.

See my point is, if you are applying a kuzushi such that their heads are going BACK, then that's not appropriate for a technique where you need their weight to go forward, such as an ura/tenkan kotegaeshi.

Bill Danosky
10-16-2013, 11:02 AM
Got it, you are counting shomenuchi dai ichi as an atemi.

Quick question before we get too 'in the weeds.' For (kihon waza) Shomenuchi Kotegaeshi dai ni, are you initiating with a front strike to uke before your pivot shift, or are you pivoting and blending with uke's strike as you make your initial pivot shift? I just looked at some clips online and I'm seeing some variances. The second part of the technique all looks congruent; the slide out, pivot, atemi, pivot, throw...I just mean the first part (of #2).

Thanks again!

For Shomenuchi ni (where uke initiates), we use both hands to intecept, so we have to forego that strike. The upper hand tegatanas the shomenuchi and the bottom hand catches the elbow. Then (for kotegaeshi ni) we pivot, bring uke around, reverse direction (another pivot) and strike, then cut the kotegaeshi down/through as we do the final pivot.

If it were Yokomenuchi ni, for instance, we'd intercept with one hand and atemi with the other, then proceed.

Basia Halliop
10-16-2013, 02:19 PM
Not everyone applies kotegaishi in this manner. Some practitioners treat it more in a manner which I would call kokyunage, where they are drawing uke's wrist away from their center, then about/above shoulder height, then out away and down. Hard to explain, and rough to fall from.



To me this still sounds like what I said, using the hand to move the body, via the other joints in the arm. It doesn't sound like it should be hampered by a stiff wrist. ?

I sprained my thumb once and spent a month or so in a wrist splint, and a lot of people had no trouble doing kotegaeshi on me - more than one different kind of kotegaeshi, with some requiring big breakfalls and others going more straight down. As long as they were trying to move me and not just make me go 'ow', it worked fine.

Bill Danosky
10-16-2013, 02:50 PM
See my point is, if you are applying a kuzushi such that their heads are going BACK, then that's not appropriate for a technique where you need their weight to go forward, such as an ura/tenkan kotegaeshi.

In Judo, we often initiate the reverse of our intention. Most opponents will oppose, and there you go.

Adam Huss
10-16-2013, 03:04 PM
In Judo, we often initiate the reverse of our intention. Most opponents will oppose, and there you go.

Right, you get someone to go back, they often naturally rock forward. IE driving in for kosoto gari and as he rocks back forward to regain balance slip into tomoe nage...or some such nonsense like that.

Adam Huss
10-16-2013, 03:06 PM
For Shomenuchi ni (where uke initiates), we use both hands to intecept, so we have to forego that strike. The upper hand tegatanas the shomenuchi and the bottom hand catches the elbow. Then (for kotegaeshi ni) we pivot, bring uke around, reverse direction (another pivot) and strike, then cut the kotegaeshi down/through as we do the final pivot.

If it were Yokomenuchi ni, for instance, we'd intercept with one hand and atemi with the other, then proceed.

Ok, that's the way I was taught but I was watching some clips of Takeno Sensei and it seemed like he was initiating dai ni with shomenuchi. Basically I couldn't tell if it was uke or nage initiating the first movement. That being said, it was an instructional video that was filmed at very slow, film-study, speed.

Bill Danosky
10-16-2013, 04:05 PM
Ok, that's the way I was taught but I was watching some clips of Takeno Sensei and it seemed like he was initiating dai ni with shomenuchi. Basically I couldn't tell if it was uke or nage initiating the first movement. That being said, it was an instructional video that was filmed at very slow, film-study, speed.

I haven't seen the film, but if it was Takeno Sensei, he will very likely have uke initiating a ni technique. But honestly, I think it's just a training protocol, so we look like we know what we're doing in a demo. If you are Yoshinkan, too, you know we ALWAYS do things a certain way, except when it's different.

heathererandolph
10-20-2013, 12:03 PM
It's probably best not to practice technique outside the dojo on friends, unless they are receptive and you are fairly advanced. They may not be prepared, might not know when to slap out, may not know how to get out of a hold or lock, and aren't dressed for taking falls or on a soft surfaced floor. If you do want to show friends, I suggest just showing them the power but not doing it hard. You can hurt someone!
As far as for effectiveness, you're losing the element of timing since they never attacked you I'm assuming. If I was going to show an outsider something, I'd probably show them the Sankyo position and let them tighten it up if they want to.

Riai Maori
02-09-2014, 07:57 PM
Taught to military and police for close combat. Grab the wrist and lower to your belly button, roll your hand over the other persons hand so their index finger touches their wrist. Watch them drop to there knees instantly. The more pressure you apply the lower your subject becomes.This technique is easy to learn, apply and very effective on all size persons strong or week. No need to unbalance or Atemi which wastes time anyway. Just my opinion.

JP3
05-11-2014, 07:17 PM
Any technique can be easily defeated by someone who knows it's coming. In the O/T case, the friend is motivated (doesn't really want to let it work so he can feel pain, I don't blaime him), so he's blocking it easily by stopping the wrist flexion. And, Janet's dead-on, kotegaeshi is more of a movement-based operation of accepting uke's balance and momentum in a direction, the extending it out past where he thought he was going to go, combined with a structural change he/she isn't prepared to deal with. All happens at the same time, fall down, go boom. If trained ukemi, looks awesome. If not trained, looks ugly and often leads to something being broken.

But, I agree, don't try to show outside of class if you are still trying to learn it. I was tol that Kotegaeshi is a "20-year technique." So, keep that in mind, too. Not easy to really "Do" in a real situation.

Asou
06-06-2014, 01:00 AM
also, kotegaeshi has a certain set of pre-requisite move in order to take uke's balance. So, it's easier for us to twist their wrist.

and moreover, most of aikido techniques requires a flowing force from the opponent. If he's standing still, It will be hard.

Edgecrusher
06-07-2014, 09:36 AM
Very true but, that is when punching and kicking come into play. Just go at them like a hurricane of fists and teeth.

sorokod
06-08-2014, 05:12 AM
also, kotegaeshi has a certain set of pre-requisite move in order to take uke's balance. So, it's easier for us to twist their wrist.

and moreover, most of aikido techniques requires a flowing force from the opponent. If he's standing still, It will be hard.

Various basic kotegaesi demonstrated by Nemoto sensei. Some of them start with no initial energy, e.g. katatedori and a few ushiro techniques

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js6TUS9vbuY

JP3
06-15-2014, 09:37 AM
also, kotegaeshi has a certain set of pre-requisite move in order to take uke's balance. So, it's easier for us to twist their wrist.

and moreover, most of aikido techniques requires a flowing force from the opponent. If he's standing still, It will be hard.

And... you know... if the guy is standing still, then he's not coming at you to do bad things, which means he's no threat, so the aikido - taking uke's force to return the energy back into him or have him pass it into an object or the ground - just doesn't apply.

And, generally, the techniques which start with uke stationary, and which are called aikido, typically begin with nage/tori initiating movement... and that movement is what is taken advantage of, right?

kewms
06-15-2014, 12:34 PM
Static training has its uses, but it's a teaching tool, IMO, not a practical application. Out in the real world, attackers have energy.

Katherine

phitruong
06-16-2014, 06:09 AM
Very true but, that is when punching and kicking come into play. Just go at them like a hurricane of fists and teeth.

i hopes it's not "their fists" and "your teeth". :)

jonreading
06-16-2014, 07:52 AM
Since it came up, I'll throw out 2 considerations:
1. Static training is the practice of moving in unison, regardless of what your partner is doing. The theory is the lack of a vector of force should allow nage to focus more on what she is supposed to be doing and less on what her partner is doing. The absence of force should not prevent movement.
2. The assigned role of nage (and uke) is to facilitate the education process, not pre-determine a winner. Ultimately, it is not relevant who "attacks" first, aside for the fact the the initiator statistically has a strong advantage.

In my experience, "real" attacks are actually going to feel more like a static attack... the premise being that your attacker is not going to over-extend her attack or give you a unique vector of energy, making the attack feel less like they are "giving you energy". Rather, a good component of the attack is going to be designed around veiling the attack itself. Just because you don't feel threatened doesn't mean there isn't a threat - it just means you can't feel the threat.

Keep it simple. Kotegaeshi is a common kata that gives us the opportunity for irrimi, tenkan, and affecting the body through a joint. The best ones I have felt neither required my participation, nor could I defend the movement. Don't mistake form for application; I would work very hard to prevent my partner from isolating my wrist if we were not practicing form.

For much of our training, our kansetsu waza is based upon pain compliance - at some point your partner needs to make a concessionary decision to preserve their safety. The problem is that sometimes that decision is a poor one, which places nage in a difficult position. If nage is correctly performing the technique, this kinda leaves only 2 options: nage abates and the technique "fails", nage continues and injuries uke. Neither feedback is desirable and what's worse, option one gives the impression the technique did not work, which is untrue .We used to distinguish between "exercising" our joints (resisting) and receiving an applied technique (kata).

Hooker sensei used to compare the unity of aiki to math. We need 100% aiki. If my partner gives me 50, then I need to do 50. If my partner gives me 90, I only need 10. If my partner gives me 10... Don't let static get to you, that just means you need to do 100% aiki.

sorokod
06-16-2014, 08:27 AM
And... you know... if the guy is standing still, then he's not coming at you to do bad things, which means he's no threat, so the aikido - taking uke's force to return the energy back into him or have him pass it into an object or the ground - just doesn't apply.


Just to be clear that while the uke is still and balanced, he holds strongly (this is part of the uke's practice). The grip should be strong enough to make nage's initial moment difficult. This is the challenge that the nage has to work with.

phitruong
06-16-2014, 01:45 PM
If my partner gives me 90, I only need 10. If my partner gives me 10... Don't let static get to you, that just means you need to do 100% aiki.

Dude! just want to point out a bit of math error here. i blamed it on US education system for not preparing us for higher math functions like addition and subtraction. maybe the math in aikido just strange that defies certain logic, kinda like fuzzy logic. maybe someone (not moi) that is good with math and aikido can come up with new field of math: aikido math. it should have something along the line of 1 + 1 = 1 :D

jonreading
06-16-2014, 02:38 PM
Dude! just want to point out a bit of math error here. i blamed it on US education system for not preparing us for higher math functions like addition and subtraction. maybe the math in aikido just strange that defies certain logic, kinda like fuzzy logic. maybe someone (not moi) that is good with math and aikido can come up with new field of math: aikido math. it should have something along the line of 1 + 1 = 1 :D

I don't do math, I just use my handy-dandy Nine Halls Diagram. Stupid math.

kewms
06-16-2014, 04:03 PM
Just to be clear that while the uke is still and balanced, he holds strongly (this is part of the uke's practice). The grip should be strong enough to make nage's initial moment difficult. This is the challenge that the nage has to work with.

But this is static training. If we're practicing dynamically, or if we're out in the world, why did nage allow uke to get a strong grip in the first place?

Katherine

Hilary
06-16-2014, 04:20 PM
If your mechanics are bad a strong grip is a problem, if your mechanics are good, using the body, no power at the point of contact, aiki, then a strong grip, static or dynamic is your friend.

odudog
06-16-2014, 07:11 PM
But this is static training. If we're practicing dynamically, or if we're out in the world, why did nage allow uke to get a strong grip in the first place?

Katherine

Nage messed up. That's the reason for practicing from a static position. Practicing this way also allows you to feel more of what is going on so that you can discover the technique as well as your flaws.

sorokod
06-17-2014, 02:52 AM
But this is static training. If we're practicing dynamically, or if we're out in the world, why did nage allow uke to get a strong grip in the first place?

Katherine

The training is as dynamic as you can make it, I you can move big strong uke from nothing, that's progress. The starting point is static in the case of katatedori, morotedori, katadori and other "doris". It is a laboratory setting where the partners can repeatedly and safely examine the forces in play, the various openings that may exist in their waza, the mental attitude, the appropriate ukemi etc...

I suppose many things can be said about "out in the world" application, just because it is something I read today, I'd quote that "violence is always unpredictable" http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2014/06/16/responding-to-aggression-iii-by-tom-collings/

jonreading
06-17-2014, 07:22 AM
I think the idea of the "dori" is to establish a demonstrable control over your partner. It's not really an "attack," but the control that precedes the attack. The aikido use of the "dori' is to the control without the attack, although technically the "attack" would not matter, hence the progression to omit it.

The notion that a static grip is somehow, "wrong" as a practical control is odd. At its base level, the attack is supposed to be a stimulus. If it is a poor attack (i.e. one that does not affect our partners), it should give us less trouble, not more. "Like most beginners, you attacked me wrong." It is possible that the nature of a grab can affect the manner in which you deal with the attack, but it should not affect your ability to deal with the attack.

The notion that a grab is avoidable is also false. The assumption of bodily control via a grab or clinch is a common and successful method in many combat arts. The principle we work on is not to the let the grab assume bodily control. This is often communicated with the "kuzushi on contact" mantra.

To go back to kotegaeshi. I trained for many years before I heard the best advice about my kata - "I'm not that good." You need a partner that is invested in your progress, not preserving her ego. Falling down is not the purpose of kata. Form is not the purpose of practical application. Don't confuse the two.

Erick Mead
06-17-2014, 10:24 AM
But this is static training. If we're practicing dynamically, or if we're out in the world, why did nage allow uke to get a strong grip in the first place? Two points, echoing what Jon said.

First, static versus dynamic is a false dichotomy. The point can be expressed in innumerable ways: dynamic is in the static and static is in the dynamic. In-yo. Potential energy resolves to kinetic as kinetic resolves to potential. The orientation of a moment (rotational/torsional stress in a structure) lies in the same path of the resulting momentum when it is released and the stress (potential) becomes kinetic (motion)- and vice versa -- you can absorb/deflect kinetic through structure -- ("To a point, Lord Copper, to a point.") But quibbles aside, the distinctions of expression are -- Tomato::Tomahto.

Second, the grip is in the context of attack, It is premised on the assumption of the presence of a weapon or strike -- say, a grip to stop or delay the drawing of the sword or use of the knife -- or prevent atemi. Again, this is not static versus dynamic -- but to study using structure to defeat (or more usually moderate or better direct) a dynamic that is already present. Conversely, when the student's grip is ineffective or lacking, I illustrate with a tanto or wakizashi thrust -- and then the grip gets intuitively correct. At the same time, it is the building block -- or sandbox, if you will -- best used to observe means and effects of various orientations of stress and movement on structure, because when when things become more fluid -- the nature and form of connection to the attack becomes less fixed and obvious.

kewms
06-17-2014, 10:44 AM
I pretty much agree with all of this.

My pushback on the idea of static technique is because, except at very high levels, static situations make it very easy for uke (consciously or unconciously) to subvert the goal of the training. Uke doesn't try to control the center, they just stand there. Or they adjust every time nage starts to get them moving. Or any of a number of things.

For advanced students, sure, that's part of the training. But pedagogically, static technique is often used to walk beginners through the "shape" of "foot goes here, hand goes here." Without careful explanation of what's going on, it very easily becomes a strength contest that beginners simply don't have the tools to win. So neither uke nor nage learns anything helpful. IMO, correct ukemi for static technique is even more difficult than good ukemi generally. It's easier for uke to "win" in a static situation, and it's hard for people to remember that "winning" isn't really the goal.

"Kuzushi on contact" is great, but that isn't what you're training if you stand there and wait to engage until uke grabs you. Rather, you're training how to recover from your failure to achieve kuzushi. Which is a useful skill, but doesn't teach much about timing, connecting before the moment of contact, and other skills that are essential in a dynamic encounter. In my experience, people who do a lot of static training are often not prepared to handle a dynamic situation: they're used to being able to take their time and "feel out" how to move uke.

Of course, people who do a lot of very dynamic training can find themselves unprepared to handle it if uke does actually manage to establish a solid grab. Any training method can be overused.

Katherine

sorokod
06-17-2014, 11:51 AM
I pretty much agree with all of this.

My pushback on the idea of static technique is because, except at very high levels, static situations make it very easy for uke (consciously or unconciously) to subvert the goal of the training. Uke doesn't try to control the center, they just stand there. Or they adjust every time nage starts to get them moving.

This is similar to the situation when uke jumps into a highfall for no good reason in "dynamic" training. In both cases the partners are denied the opportunity to learn anything. Needles to say that this is not
how, what we call kihon training, works.

Cromwell
12-05-2016, 05:21 AM
Let's remember that Kote Gaeshi is literally a forearm turn. It is not easy to do the traditional supinating wristlock (kotegaeshi) when it is a closed fist. A traditional open hand shomen (tegatana) attack yes very possible. A tightly closed fist not easy to do kote gaeshi.

However, if you concentrate the forearm rather than supinating wristlock, kotegaeshi becomes easier to apply. Please note, make sure you throw uke from his back foot, otherwise he can turn around and punch you when he is doing ukemi.

Have a look at Osensei's photo in this post. Also look at the videos of masters doing kote gaeshi.

http://goodaikido.com/kote-gaeshi-kotegaeshi/

Notice that they lock the forearm and they put the forearm behind uke rather than concentrating on the wristlock.

A smooth kotegaeshi executed without pain is a superior type of kotegaeshi. Don't rely on pain with kotegaeshi, you will just get a stiff and reactive uke that will stop your technique.

shuckser
12-29-2016, 11:01 AM
Let's remember that Kote Gaeshi is literally a forearm turn.Just a couple of examples (in the same video) of this idea being nicely illustrated:

http://dai.ly/x2qm8o3?start=263
http://dai.ly/x2qm8o3?start=182

fatebass21
03-12-2017, 09:53 AM
there should be new aikido student rule:

do not try what you learned in aikido on your friends, family, significant others, neighbors, pets, aliens from outer space, and/or others not listed here without your teacher(s) consent

I second this...

PeterR
03-12-2017, 11:35 AM
I second this...

I would think aliens from outer space are fair game.

fatebass21
03-12-2017, 12:12 PM
I would think aliens from outer space are fair game.

Ok, ok, I can get on board with that...but...those aliens with wrists...

phitruong
03-15-2017, 08:58 AM
I would think aliens from outer space are fair game.

wouldn't want to try it with the Cylon, not to mention the Borg which have been hanging out on various aiki threads saying that you can't resist and will be assimilated.

PeterR
03-15-2017, 09:55 AM
wouldn't want to try it with the Cylon, not to mention the Borg which have been hanging out on various aiki threads saying that you can't resist and will be assimilated.

:D

Resistance is everything

sisley
03-16-2017, 04:17 PM
I've only been training since September. So yeah I need a lot more practice time and I'll be asking my sensei for some help with it.

Any suggestions are welcome: I'm really curious to hear what other peoples experiences have been when they encounter people with strong wrists that do not bend easily.

I have always had crazy, flexible wrists which present a similar problem, so I can testify that it isn't the wrist that you want to think about. The "pain" of kotegaeshi rarely made me take ukemi. So here are a couple of ideas from my practice.

First and foremost is to think about the uke's shoulder not so much his wrist. If you look at the picture posted of O-Sensei, uke's shoulder is in the shikaku (death spot) where it is unsupported by uke's legs. That's important.

The second thing to think about is the spiral that the wrist makes and my guess is your spiral was too small. Once you have a connection to uke's shoulder through his hand, your spiral will move his shoulder off of his hip, taking his balance and starting his fall. The spiral can be vertical or horizontal, (Probably other things, too,) In other words, the connection can either dislodge uke's shoulder toward his back or draw it out in front. Your movement can help determine this. (Look where O-Sensei is in that photograph.)

Lots of good advice out there. Try it all. Wear what fits for the time being and store the rest.

fatebass21
03-21-2017, 08:32 AM
That's an awesome picture! Thanks for that.

It definitely unbalanced him when I applied it but it was difficult to get him to go to the ground with it. I see what you're saying, but it feels so unnatural when I couldn't get that bend that I'm used to. I'll keep practicing!

Thats an interesting picture. Quick fix if in that position and the technique is not bringing them 'down'...take a short step back