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Mary Eastland
12-06-2012, 05:33 AM
Ok, here are my real thoughts about the herd thing. It often comes sideways so I will just say it here and be done with it.

Ron and I teach Aikido. (I will speak for myself here)...The philosophy is very real to me, along with the waza and Ki development.

Ron and I went to a seminar that George taught at Marc's to see what this aiki stuff was all about as George was presenting it. It was ok. We had fun. We like our way better. We invited both Marc and George to come and visit us. We were told they are both too busy. Fair enough.

Stan B. came to our dojo to a seminar not long ago.

He could see we are strong and our students are strong. Dora and Stan had an encounter and Dora was fine. Stan seemed fine.

Our ideas about Ki development are changing and growing. Reading here and other places stretches us and makes us think and do different things. All good.

We have invited Dan here several times. He lets the invites wither. I feel it is because it is an invite to explore together and not have him be the expert. Yet, I could be wrong.

I am not interested in going to his place and this is the real reason, so listen carefully. I am not interested in the culture that I see around the posts on AikiWeb from most of the people that train in IP that post on here.

In my dojo I know how what to expect. I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.

When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido). Now Bill seems to be going outside Aikido to find Ki. You can do aiki in Aikido.You don't have to buy in to the Western philosophy of besting another.

Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel.

The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.

If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you.

Chris Knight
12-06-2012, 06:15 AM
very nice post

regards

chris

Peter Goldsbury
12-06-2012, 06:37 AM
To Mary Eastland,

Hello,

I have kept out of all the public discussions, but I would like to respond to your post.

Ok, here are my real thoughts about the herd thing. It often comes sideways so I will just say it here and be done with it.

Ron and I teach Aikido. (I will speak for myself here)...The philosophy is very real to me, along with the waza and Ki development.

PAG. I also teach aikido and I believe that the things that are very real to you are also very real to me, though I would probably not express this in the same way.

Ron and I went to a seminar that George taught at Marc's to see what this aiki stuff was all about as George was presenting it. It was ok. We had fun. We like our way better. We invited both Marc and George to come and visit us. We were told they are both too busy. Fair enough.

Stan B. came to our dojo to a seminar not long ago.

He could see we are strong and our students are strong. Dora and Stan had an encounter and Dora was fine. Stan seemed fine.

Our ideas about Ki development are changing and growing. Reading here and other places stretches us and makes us think and do different things. All good.

We have invited Dan here several times. He lets the invites wither. I feel it is because it is an invite to explore together and not have him be the expert. Yet, I could be wrong.

I am not interested in going to his place and this is the real reason, so listen carefully. I am not interested in the culture that I see around the posts on AikiWeb from most of the people that train in IP that post on here.

In my dojo I know how what to expect. I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.
PAG. All this really goes over my head, or under my feet. I do not live in the US and I am pretty unlikely to train with any of the people you have mentioned. So I regard the discussions on AikiWeb as exercises in rhetoric, with all the problems that this entails.

When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido). Now Bill seems to be going outside Aikido to find Ki. You can do aiki in Aikido.You don't have to buy in to the Western philosophy of besting another.

Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel.
PAG. I have never met Mr Gleason and cannot speak for him, but what I have read on Aikiweb suggests to me that he goes and trains with Mr Harden because of his previous training with Yamaguchi Seigo Shihan and that Mr Harden is helping him to explore and develop what he learned from Yamaguchi Shihan. I also studied with Yamaguchi Sensei and if I lived in the USA and was able to, I would almost certainly do the same. Now, I have to look hard at my present situation and balance what I would like to do with what I can actually do. I do encourage students however, to get out as much as they can and in Europe this includes training with Mr Akuzawa and Mr Harden if possible.

I understand your defensiveness in relation to the Aikikai, for I have first hand experience of this organization. However, like you I am relatively free in what I am able to do, but there is also an issue of commitment here. Nevertheless, I remember two memorable training sessions in Himeji, with participation from Aikikai (myself), Yoshinkan (Michael Stuempel) and Shodokan (Peter Rehse with Japanese colleagues from Shodokan Hombu). In Japan there are still dojos scattered around the country where what I would call old-style aikido is still practised. They never advertise and have to be searched for.

The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.

If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you.
PAG. Yes, my sentiments, also.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury

Marc Abrams
12-06-2012, 06:42 AM
Ron and I went to a seminar that George taught at Marc's to see what this aiki stuff was all about as George was presenting it. It was ok. We had fun. We like our way better. We invited both Marc and George to come and visit us. We were told they are both too busy. Fair enough.

If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you.

Mary,

Your propensity for seemingly never getting what I say accurate is beyond the pale of reason. I have NEVER said that I was too busy to visit. I did say that I was very busy and that if I was able to be around that area, I would stop by. I currently run two businesses. That means six days a week of work with 12 hours days as the norm. My dojo is always open to for visitors and I would assume that yours is as well. If I am in the area, I would have no problem training with you and Ron.

At a minimum, I would greatly appreciate it if you would check with me your beliefs about what I say before trying to publicly state any alleged positions, statements, ideas, etc. of mine. I am frankly tired of this pattern of constant distortions.

I hope that This once again, clarifies things for you.

Marc Abrams

Chris Li
12-06-2012, 08:51 AM
How did this become an Aikikai issue? There are just as many (more) people outside the Aikikai training this as inside, from what I can tell...

Koichi Tohei, and I'll mention him since you're in a Tohei related lineage, went way outside of Aikido to develop what he's doing - that wasn't a problem for you?

Anyway, I'm not sure that you should judge what Dan is doing by George or Stan - no offense to either of them, that would go double in my case.

As for:

The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me.

I really don't see how anything the IP crowd is doing conflicts with that at all. I've seen more humiliating in regular Aikido - even directly from Koichi Tohei - then I've even seen in that group.

Best,

Chris

mrlizard123
12-06-2012, 09:08 AM
I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP.
Hey! I'm not old and I'm... ok, the guy bit is fair enough :)

I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.
I'm assuming you mean this discomfort purely in something like a social context? Do you train in such a way to advance yourself up to the limit of your comfort and beyond? Otherwise doesn't it make progress slower/harder/etc? I assume you don't mean you aim to remain within your comfort zone at all times?

The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.
I think this is great and I'd agree with it but I'm not sure your comments regarding sheep and herds are congruent with this vision of action at no one else's expense. I consider myself to be a person of reasonable intellect and intact faculties; I subscribe to the same idea or ideas as other people based upon the merits of experience and evidence, not to be part of a group. It seems to me you are implying that people who find merit in the IP/aiki field and want to participate in public discussion are somehow not free and capable individuals who happen to agree with a particular set of ideas and concepts through their experiences.

People can be enthusiastic and I understand that you might perceive this in the way you have but without knowing people personally I'd not be in such a hurry to brand them as you do with your statements regarding herds; from your continued expression of your perspective I could suggest you are a "blinkered horse" unable to see that which you have in front of you... I don't because I think it would be unfairly rude on my part; I have not met you and have no direct experience with what you're doing etc. It's also ok for each of us to disagree and believe that what we do is different/correct/better/whatever. Talking about our feelings in this regard is also ok, as is not participating where we don't feel like it's conducive to progress. I may agree or disagree with the manner in which you describe some things but that's by the by unless I know for sure that it's not simply a misunderstanding based on terminology.

For example you use the term inner strength and I could assume you mean this in some manner relating to the discussions about "IS" or "IP" or "aiki" as per many of the threads on here and then point out where I think that's not correct, but I'm not sure so won't make the assumption. If you mean it in terms of something like mental/psychological/spiritual fortitude then I would probably agree and think that this applies in many types of training paradigms including those espoused by proponents of the IP/aiki training methods; though think this is a different subject to the "internal" subjects that are often a staple for discussion/debate/argumentation i.e. "inner strength" != "internal power"/"internal strength"/"internal skills" (pick your poison).

Rich

Janet Rosen
12-06-2012, 10:11 AM
In my dojo I know how what to expect. I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.
.

I find the times I learn and grow are when I am willing to be uncomfortable, which is part of why for over 15 years I have made it a point to visit all kinds of dojos and seminars within pretty limited budget and time constraints.
Not all end up offering something I want to pursue further, but I have never felt that I was in danger and I have never felt that it had been a waste of time. There is usually something that I can bring to my daily practice.

Rob Watson
12-06-2012, 10:31 AM
Yet, I could be wrong.

We have this in common.

ChrisMoses
12-06-2012, 10:55 AM
Sounds like you are happy with your training, the people you train with and the culture your dojo has cultivated. Awesome. Really. :) That's pretty much all any of us are after.

Different people are after different things just as different people learn through different methods. Some people snowboard and some sick-backward-bottom-dwellers ski, it's all good. :rolleyes:

(And just to be PERFECTLY clear, I mean my first paragraph whole heartedly, please don't put any sarcasm into it where none is intended. My jab at skiers is completely a joke, my daughters ski and I love them anyway...) :D

jonreading
12-06-2012, 12:09 PM
Ok, here are my real thoughts about the herd thing. It often comes sideways so I will just say it here and be done with it.

Ron and I teach Aikido. (I will speak for myself here)...The philosophy is very real to me, along with the waza and Ki development.

Ron and I went to a seminar that George taught at Marc's to see what this aiki stuff was all about as George was presenting it. It was ok. We had fun. We like our way better. We invited both Marc and George to come and visit us. We were told they are both too busy. Fair enough.

Stan B. came to our dojo to a seminar not long ago.

He could see we are strong and our students are strong. Dora and Stan had an encounter and Dora was fine. Stan seemed fine.

Our ideas about Ki development are changing and growing. Reading here and other places stretches us and makes us think and do different things. All good.

We have invited Dan here several times. He lets the invites wither.I feel it is because it is an invite to explore together and not have him be the expert. Yet, I could be wrong.

I am not interested in going to his place and this is the real reason, so listen carefully. I am not interested in the culture that I see around the posts on AikiWeb from most of the people that train in IP that post on here.

In my dojo I know how what to expect. I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.

When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido). Now Bill seems to be going outside Aikido to find Ki. You can do aiki in Aikido.You don't have to buy in to the Western philosophy of besting another.

Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel.

The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.

If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you.

First, I think it is fair to say we all like our way better. I highlighted this comment because like and dislike have little to do with correct and incorrect. Eventually, if we hang around long enough, our aikido will fall under criticism. The rub is that it will either work or it will not. You get to say things like "my partner has bad energy", or "you're not sensitive," when you are white belt, maybe even black belt. But at some point your aikido will have to work, or you will be dismissed as one of the many people who are satisfied doing something with their time. I like my aikido; I understand that it has a ways to mature before it is correct.

Second, you don't have to buy into the concept of besting another. But you do have to buy into the concept of besting yourself. That's masakatsu agatsu. Showing up and doing what you like will get you so far. After that, it gets you a seat to the back row where people stop looking for advice. Again, I like the idea that I should leave class better than when I entered class.

Third, I do not like to be part of yet another thread intended to trash internal power. It works. If you do not like it, fine. But the herd mentality in aikido is of the majority suppressing the minority because the minority message rattles the foundation of aikido(TM). Internal Power just happens to be the flavor of the day (or days, as it turns out to be). Call BS, don't work with them. Eventually, you will be on the mat with one of these people and it will be plain who is better. This comparison will have nothing to do with what you like to do; it will have everything to do with who have been training aiki and who has been training aikido.

I appreciate the frustration with the Internal Power groups. I understand the close network of excellent individuals; the top of the mountain starts to get small and crowded. The problem is shouting them down only works if it is loud enough no one can hear them talk. The problem is people are listening. Save yourself aggravation. Block the posts, call their stuff BS and roll the dice.

The extend to my criticism goes as far as calling out the IP crowd. I have the same arguments with people to denigrate the MMA'ers, judo people and karateka who all want to help and learn about aikido. If you don't like it, fine. But right now it just seems like we're scared of them because they may actually know what they are doing...

Basia Halliop
12-06-2012, 12:54 PM
First, I think it is fair to say we all like our way better. I highlighted this comment because like and dislike have little to do with correct and incorrect

True enough, but sometimes 'like' encompasses more than a straightforward emotional reaction, as people very often use it as a way of saying that what they're doing helps them meet their own personal goals. I.e., as a way of saying 'I don't regret the choices I have made and am making, looking at the options I see around me I still make the same choices, and every other person is free to make their own choices as well, which may very well be different from mine.'

It's no different from anything else in life.

stan baker
12-06-2012, 01:17 PM
Hi Mary
You did fine too like most aikido dojos I go to.
What Dan is teaching and actually doing is way
Beyond fine. Simple as that.

Stan

MM
12-06-2012, 01:18 PM
Ok, here are my real thoughts about the herd thing. It often comes sideways so I will just say it here and be done with it.

Ron and I teach Aikido. (I will speak for myself here)...The philosophy is very real to me, along with the waza and Ki development.

Ron and I went to a seminar that George taught at Marc's to see what this aiki stuff was all about as George was presenting it. It was ok. We had fun. We like our way better.


Hi Mary. With all due respect to all four of you, I think that it is a great disservice to yourself, Ron, George, and Marc to use them as the role model for IP/aiki at the time that you did. I would encourage you to revisit IP/aiki with Dan.


Our ideas about Ki development are changing and growing. Reading here and other places stretches us and makes us think and do different things. All good.

We have invited Dan here several times. He lets the invites wither. I feel it is because it is an invite to explore together and not have him be the expert. Yet, I could be wrong.


I'll let Dan speak for himself. He *sometimes* does so in an eloquent manner here on Aikiweb. (Yes, Mary, that was a dig at Dan. :) )

As for me, I've lost count of the times I've watched Dan work with someone new and he'll ask the other person, show me what you're doing. They do. Dan shows that person what he's doing. Then he lets them decide which way they think is better.


I am not interested in going to his place and this is the real reason, so listen carefully. I am not interested in the culture that I see around the posts on AikiWeb from most of the people that train in IP that post on here.

In my dojo I know how what to expect. I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.


I can't say anything to you that will change your mind. How about, I just describe some of what I've experienced and you can take that, compare it to what you read here on Aikiweb, and ask yourself why those two are different for you?

Seminar example #1: As a beginner, I stood in a large room with no mats and probably 40 other people. Those people came from aikido, karate, taiji, etc. They all were curious about what was being said about IP/aiki. Working with them initially, I could see their doubts and reluctances to actually believe what was being said. I watched Dan work with each of them and watched as their doubts/reluctancy changed to hope, smiles, and laughter. I watched them trade back and forth on training their way and Dan's way. People were laughing then working up a sweat, then laughing, then working up a sweat. People from various martial arts were working together to train.

Seminar example #2: Repeat #1, this time with a couple of 6th dans in aikido. All of us having a blast at the seminar, laughing, then working, then laughing. Trading budo stories at dinner. Also, it wasn't just all men. There were women from various martial arts there, too.

Now, this continues through ... well, I lost track around 10. It's quite a sight to go to a seminar, look around at 4th, 5th, 6th degree black belts, koryu people, high ranking people from karate and taiji all working together, at times laughing until they are red in the face, then sweating buckets from training, then gladly swapping stories at dinner, trading contact info, looking to when the next time they can train together again.

I know that Aikiweb forums are tough to use to get a good feel for someone, or a group of people. I know that personally because reading Sigman's posts and then meeting him in person was like talking to two completely different people. After meeting him, I read his posts in a far different manner. All I'm saying is keep an open mind.


When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido).


Students are students. I would suggest withholding opinions about teachers until you meet them. Does Bill have very strong opinions? He does. Do I think he'd say something like that? Personally, I can't see him saying it, no. Could I see him talking about the differences between his training in Yamaguchi's dojos to Aikikai training in hombu and it being completely different? Yes. How students translate what he said ... could it have been misconstrued? Sure.

There have been times when I've gone back to Dan and asked to reiterate some point in training only to find that I'd misconstrued what he'd said. It happens.


Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel.

The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.

If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you.

I really don't think the end results we're looking towards are different.

mathewjgano
12-06-2012, 02:18 PM
My jab at skiers is completely a joke, my daughters ski and I love them anyway...) :D

Whew! That was a close one! This skier was about to put the virtual smack down! Or at least to point out that we aren't afraid of gravity (we face it more head-on), unlike those sideways thinking boardheads...no disrespect... :p :D

The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.
Despite the issues of remaining true to lineage, etc., we all practice our own Way; Aikido, to my mind, is about self-correction. That said, I am happy to be corrected by others, even when I think they're wrong...and when I'm not happy to be corrected by others I see it as a sign for me to pay closer attention. For me, everything is secondary to my personal path...and I'm often inclined to call a tomato a cat, but let's not call the whole thing off. We need exchanges with people who disagree with us and I would argue it's a better, more difficult practice than the alternative; one which is often underappreciated because of the unpleasant difficulties it often reveals.
The "IP crowd" tends to be very assertive. Ok, "take my wrist:" Maybe I am unable to make a beautiful form (like waza) from the interaction, but at least I can keep trying until I get a little better...and each time I can get a little better, and maybe eventually some crtical piece of info pops into place that makes things more meaningful on both ends of the exchange. The intent of my partner matters little where my self-corrective process is concerned. I can worry about their efforts to apply pressure or I can worry about how it's affecting me and address that part.
Take care,
Matt

Shadowfax
12-06-2012, 02:30 PM
I don't really understand the reason for this thread. If you are not interested in what is being discussed just refrain from reading and joining in. Easy peasy. It really does not matter why. Your training your choice.

But honestly. If I held back from trying things that were outside of my comfort zone I would never have entered a dojo to begin with. As a student am glad I have teachers who are willing to give new ideas and different approaches a try. Their having done so has really given our dojo some amazing experiences and insights. Perhaps we might not carry it forward in our own training perhaps we may, but at least we had the choice.

I just don't understand why the need to be defensive and so loudly protest something which you are not forced to be a part of.

phitruong
12-06-2012, 03:22 PM
i can't stand intolerance people! :) *sorry couldn't help meself*

i can see why don't care for the IP/IS folks. they are kinda in your face all the time with their IP/aiki is the true IP/aiki. they just get on your nerves. just this morning, one of those buggers was right in my face, staring down at me, snarling and making rude comments. then my wife walked in and said "why are you standing there holding the shaver and making strange noises?" i said "i can't decide if i should shave my goatee or not!" wife said "use the electric clipper!". i tell you that women just don't understand us men at all!

Gary David
12-06-2012, 08:56 PM
.............

Our ideas about Ki development are changing and growing. Reading here and other places stretches us and makes us think and do different things. All good.

I would offer that individuals like Dan......Ark and others...... are favoring your art. Maybe not directly, but it is happening. It is like only a few drops of chocolate in your milk ...it is not just milk anymore. It seems to me that the Dan's and Ark's openness and public instruction have allowed room...or space if you will.... have you seen some of younger Japanese instructors showing more of what would fall into the category of IP/IS? Sharing and exploring....

We have invited Dan here several times. He lets the invites wither. I feel it is because it is an invite to explore together and not have him be the expert. Yet, I could be wrong.

Are you getting that he may be the "expert"?

I am not interested in going to his place and this is the real reason, so listen carefully. I am not interested in the culture that I see around the posts on AikiWeb from most of the people that train in IP that post on here.

You know Dan has stayed in our home twice during weekend workshops and Mark Murray has stayed once. I have been around both of them other times. They are both what an old friend would have called people who are first cabin. I have met many of the other that come to Dan's workshops who have been very friendly and helpful The azzhats just don't seem to come around. Dan's students Terri and Don....you couldn't ask for nicer people or ones that are more helpful.........so if you are not interested the this culture and not sure what road you are traveling on now.

I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.

Well I can understand that.....no wait.....I am 70 so I must be one of those old guys you are talking about.....

When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido). Now Bill seems to be going outside Aikido to find Ki. You can do aiki in Aikido.You don't have to buy in to the Western philosophy of besting another.

In 1977 I went to my Aikido Instructor Harry Ishisaka Sensei and ask if it would be ok for me to train some Karate.....his response was do it. I had my taste while continuing my Aikido. Later I ask again and trained for a short time with Danny Inosanto's group in Torrance in 1978 (I still have the grey training shirt after all these...doesn't fit). All of this helped, was fun and added to my Aikido. Even today I am still exploring outside the art.....it is just needed.

Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel.

Read your entries again out loud and see how they lay themselves out....then ask yourself how they sound if you spoke them..

The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.

If this stands up for you then good for you....

If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you.

As I am likely considered one of the Danettes even an older one......not sure if this offer would still be out there....if we visit one of our friends on the East Coast (not Dan) I'll try to bring my old bones by and see if you let me in.......

Just go straight...

Gary

DH
12-07-2012, 05:55 AM
Ok, here are my real thoughts about the herd thing. It often comes sideways so I will just say it here and be done with it.

Ron and I teach Aikido. (I will speak for myself here)...The philosophy is very real to me, along with the waza and Ki development.

Ron and I went to a seminar that George taught at Marc's to see what this aiki stuff was all about as George was presenting it. It was ok. We had fun. We like our way better. We invited both Marc and George to come and visit us. We were told they are both too busy. Fair enough.

Stan B. came to our dojo to a seminar not long ago.

He could see we are strong and our students are strong. Dora and Stan had an encounter and Dora was fine. Stan seemed fine.

Our ideas about Ki development are changing and growing. Reading here and other places stretches us and makes us think and do different things. All good.

We have invited Dan here several times. He lets the invites wither. I feel it is because it is an invite to explore together and not have him be the expert. Yet, I could be wrong.

I am not interested in going to his place and this is the real reason, so listen carefully. I am not interested in the culture that I see around the posts on AikiWeb from most of the people that train in IP that post on here.

In my dojo I know how what to expect. I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.

When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido). Now Bill seems to be going outside Aikido to find Ki. You can do aiki in Aikido.You don't have to buy in to the Western philosophy of besting another.

Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel.

The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.

If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you.
Mary
I have a number of PM's to you specifically stating I would come and train with you.
I have also remained complimentary of yours and Ron's efforts in spite of your repeated comments about me and those who train with me in an almost universally negative fashion. Ron has never expressed any interest in what I do.

I remain confused as to when these invitations took place and why they would ever have been extended in light of your rather consistently negative comments of me.

That said, again I think your training paradigm would only be enhanced by what I do. If you or Ron could do anything to move me or successfully blend with me using ki, aiki, or even martial arts.....I would be very intrigued.
Dan

lbb
12-07-2012, 01:25 PM
But honestly. If I held back from trying things that were outside of my comfort zone I would never have entered a dojo to begin with. As a student am glad I have teachers who are willing to give new ideas and different approaches a try. Their having done so has really given our dojo some amazing experiences and insights. Perhaps we might not carry it forward in our own training perhaps we may, but at least we had the choice.

I just don't understand why the need to be defensive and so loudly protest something which you are not forced to be a part of.

I think one problem is that some IP proponents have sometimes made statements about the motivation, mindset, commitment, what have you of those who don't train with them (and, to be sure, the reverse has happened as well). When someone has a position that doesn't seem to make sense, we could probably all stand to curtail the impulse to find a reason that's based on a flaw of some kind: this person fears change, this person lacks commitment, this person is afraid to move out of their comfort zone, this person is brainwashed, this person is afraid of new ideas, this person is too lazy to change their practice. Nobody likes being called fearful, lazy, stubborn, closeminded, defensive, etc. and why should they? And even if you're 100% right in your assessment of their character, what does your observation accomplish? It almost never causes people to be more open to your ideas -- if they do hear what you're saying, they do it despite the insults, not because of them.

The thing is, it's possible to have useful discussions about motivation, mindset, commitment and what have you. It's almost never possible to do so in the second or third person, though -- not unless you know someone very, very well. I can talk with at least some authority about my motivation, mindset, commitment, and what have you. You, really, cannot.

DH
12-07-2012, 02:15 PM
That was a great post Mary but I see things a little simpler than that.
IP people generally raise hackles because once they feel this they say this is Aikido.
it's my opinion that it has been a series of those in Aikido who choose to attack the IP people personally, describing them in every manner of derogatory commentary imaginable. I've seen it over and over, were I home at my computer I could prove it in about a half an hour: with articles from shihans and all manner of posts doing exactly as you described questioning motivations, practices, insinuating people are brainwashed, herd mentalities, con man, snake oil salesman.... the list goes on and on.
Opinion is not required.... I've saved many of the posts.

The real dispute should be over whether this work is in fact the original work Ueshiba was doing and that it is in fact the very heart of Aikido. It is that one...singular....point, that has caused people in the community to react and respond defensively. Being told you're not doing something correct or that you haven't understood something you been doing for years, is challenging enough for anyone. now hearing it is being played out and proved to be true on a worldwide stage, is not welcomed news for all parties involved. All too often this has evoked an emotional response from those in the community

I think we can all do better.
Dan

Shadowfax
12-07-2012, 07:41 PM
I think one problem is that some IP proponents have sometimes made statements about the motivation, mindset, commitment, what have you of those who don't train with them (and, to be sure, the reverse has happened as well). When someone has a position that doesn't seem to make sense, we could probably all stand to curtail the impulse to find a reason that's based on a flaw of some kind: this person fears change, this person lacks commitment, this person is afraid to move out of their comfort zone, this person is brainwashed, this person is afraid of new ideas, this person is too lazy to change their practice. Nobody likes being called fearful, lazy, stubborn, closeminded, defensive, etc. and why should they? And even if you're 100% right in your assessment of their character, what does your observation accomplish? It almost never causes people to be more open to your ideas -- if they do hear what you're saying, they do it despite the insults, not because of them.

Sticks and stones.....just because someone does or says something that one does not like does that mean one has to retaliate in like kind? Big deal if someone has that opinion. Does that change who you are? Does that make you less? If you know who you are and what you are capable of why does it matter if someone else, a stranger on the internet no less, has some other opinion right or wrong? if a person listens great, and if they choose not to hear you... well that's their loss not yours. What does it really take away from you?

I can talk with at least some authority about my motivation, mindset, commitment, and what have you. You, really, cannot.

You have no idea of just what I can or cannot do. I did not speak about your motivation, mindset commitment other than to follow the thought you yourself posted about not being willing to step outside of your comfort zone and to be grateful that I have teachers who are not afraid to do so since it has benefited me. I am sorry that you are unable to do the same.

Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel.

Ditto.

hughrbeyer
12-08-2012, 07:01 AM
When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido). Now Bill seems to be going outside Aikido to find Ki. You can do aiki in Aikido.You don't have to buy in to the Western philosophy of besting another.

Ummm... wow. I don't speak for Gleason Sensei, but I train with him and I can tell you this sounds nothing like anything he'd ever say. The idea that he'd hold the Aikikai up as the only "real thing" is... out of character. He's not anybody's idea of an organization man. And he has stood on the mat and told us to go out and train with everyone we can find, and see what we can pick up. Doesn't mean he has a high opinion of everything out there. But he encourages us to go see.

As for going outside of Aikido to find ki, PAG has it exactly right. Sensei says Harden's stuff is helping him to understand things Yamaguchi did and said, and that when he goes back and looks at Yamaguchi's videos that he now sees things he didn't see before. The whole point for him, and me, and a bunch of us is that we're finding Dan's stuff makes our Aikido better.

As for the "Western philosophy of besting another" -- Western? Really? O-Sensei never talked about the people he had bested? He never held those successes up as a reason for believing in his aiki? Guess he didn't. Glad to be set straight.

Sorry to bomb in on the thread and respond to one point without reading the whole thing, but I'm having a hard time keeping up with Aikiweb these days. In fact, I'm at a seminar with Sensei and the Devil Incarnate this weekend, but took out time for this. Happy training!

Howard Popkin
12-08-2012, 07:44 AM
Ummm... wow. I don't speak for Gleason Sensei, but I train with him and I can tell you this sounds nothing like anything he'd ever say. The idea that he'd hold the Aikikai up as the only "real thing" is... out of character. He's not anybody's idea of an organization man. And he has stood on the mat and told us to go out and train with everyone we can find, and see what we can pick up. Doesn't mean he has a high opinion of everything out there. But he encourages us to go see.

As for going outside of Aikido to find ki, PAG has it exactly right. Sensei says Harden's stuff is helping him to understand things Yamaguchi did and said, and that when he goes back and looks at Yamaguchi's videos that he now sees things he didn't see before. The whole point for him, and me, and a bunch of us is that we're finding Dan's stuff makes our Aikido better.

As for the "Western philosophy of besting another" -- Western? Really? O-Sensei never talked about the people he had bested? He never held those successes up as a reason for believing in his aiki? Guess he didn't. Glad to be set straight.

Sorry to bomb in on the thread and respond to one point without reading the whole thing, but I'm having a hard time keeping up with Aikiweb these days. In fact, I'm at a seminar with Sensei and the Devil Incarnate this weekend, but took out time for this. Happy training!

Say hi to Sensei and the Devil for me, I'm out sick this weekend :( Have fun !

Keith Larman
12-08-2012, 08:20 AM
I've known Dan quite some time due to my professional world of swords. The dude has never been shy to share his opinions (although that reminds me -- he posed a question once years ago about a sword smith yaki-ire secret that he never answered -- gonna have to try to pin him down on that). Anyway, after a couple seminars with Dan (and Mike S and Toby and...) I will say I just see my Aikido differently now. I have lost count of the number of things I've realized that I missed in the past. Things that now go through different filters and help me see them in different ways. Does it make anything "wrong"? Nah, I don't think of it that way. I see it as people trying to communicate stuff that is by its very nature difficult to communicate. And ironically as someone teaching myself I see the same "how do I explain this?" conundrum in everything I do as well. I get a lot from every training session no matter who it is I'm training with. Heck, Jun held a Aikiweb seminar years ago that had Threadgil, Ledyard, and Aaron Clark. I got a ton from all three men. Heck, I learned a lot watching one of Aaron's students, a lovely woman who it turns out was a musician. I saw things in her movement that caused lightbulbs to turn on in my head with respect to stuff I had learned that were in some senses totally unrelated. I love that stuff.

I love to learn. I love to stretch my brain. I truly dislike feeling comfortable in what I do as it makes me wonder if I've become complacent.

So y'all do whatever it is that floats your boat. And pardon my enthusiasm if I get a bit excited about something new I've learned even if it is just from watching a video of Ark hitting someone. Or realizing some deeper significance of something Toby mentioned in passing. Or having some epiphany about how I should be doing my Aikitaiso simply because of an exercise Dan taught me.

I really don't see a problem. And comments about herd mentality, "drinking the koolaid", that kind of stuff simply don't help. I see posts from some trying to "defend the honor" of Aikido as it is currently practiced. Fine, whatever, but it is a waste of air IMHO. Frankly I don't think it needs defending -- good god, how many 10's of thousands practice Aikido? Hundreds of thousands? Pffft. Ignore the rest of us if it isn't what you like. If we're wrong we'll fade away over time. Time and experience has a habit of helping vacuous trends to vanish.

Train. Train hard. Train well. Keep an open mind. And if you're the type that doesn't like disagreement or discussion, well, don't discuss. These are just pixels on a screen, devoid of power, devoid of any significance to the overwhelming majority of people. And Aikido will go where it goes no matter what any of us do.

Keith Larman
12-08-2012, 08:26 AM
Now... To get Howard Popkin out to So Cal for an intro to Daito Ryu... Context, more context, I need more context. Give me more, more, MORE!!!!!

Come on folks, grin some. And let it go, life's too damned short. Let's all grab a beer and tell bad stories. Heck, the best part of any seminar with someone like Toby is hearing the stories about what was really going on with various martial arts histories... I sometimes think I learn more about how things came about after the seminars after some beer waza...

And fwiw... All these folks are just people. Regular folk wandering along their own path.

chillzATL
12-08-2012, 09:22 AM
When I read the OP and some of the follow-ups, the impression I got was that there was frustration with almost cult-like enthusiasm the people who are doing the IP training have for it and their willingness to beat you over the head with their opinions until you almost want to puke, without ever offering anything more than IHTBF. I get it, I really do. It's tiring to be told you're wrong and sometimes not just be told it, but to be beaten about the head and shoulders by it and not really be given anything in return other than "IHTBF" or "go see people". Especially when that sort of conversation is what dominates around here these days. All I can say is that it's probably just as frustrating to some of us who are doing the IP training to read those posts and never see anyone really attempt elucidate what they themselves are doing. Training is always going to be more important than talking, always, but talking and finding ways to verbalize what you're doing and how you're doing it is a pretty important part to actually understanding what you're doing..IMO.

Howard Popkin
12-08-2012, 11:59 AM
working it out, expecting august :)

Gary David
12-08-2012, 01:38 PM
working it out, expecting august :)

Howard
Contact me and we can see what can be worked out for here around me......Orange County and other parts of So Cal......maybe combining or follow on.

Gary

Cady Goldfield
12-08-2012, 08:17 PM
When I read the OP and some of the follow-ups, the impression I got was that there was frustration with almost cult-like enthusiasm the people who are doing the IP training have for it and their willingness to beat you over the head with their opinions until you almost want to puke, without ever offering anything more than IHTBF. I get it, I really do. It's tiring to be told you're wrong and sometimes not just be told it, but to be beaten about the head and shoulders by it and not really be given anything in return other than "IHTBF" or "go see people". Especially when that sort of conversation is what dominates around here these days. All I can say is that it's probably just as frustrating to some of us who are doing the IP training to read those posts and never see anyone really attempt elucidate what they themselves are doing. Training is always going to be more important than talking, always, but talking and finding ways to verbalize what you're doing and how you're doing it is a pretty important part to actually understanding what you're doing..IMO.

Considering the wealth of scholarship dwelling on AikiWeb alone -- Ellis Amdur, Dan Harden, Chris Li, Peter Goldsbury, just to name a tiny fraction --there is enough historical and tangible, physical evidence in place to be very certain that the methods for the unusual power that drove the skills demonstrated by S. Takeda, Y. Sagawa, K. Horikawa and M. Ueshiba are still very much alive and being practiced by contemporary martial artists, including some who post on and read AikiWeb. Again and again, the evidence, including invidivuals actually duplicating Ueshiba's internal skills and having them confirmed by PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY TRAINED WITH AND FELT UESHIBA, have been reported here, but summarily dismissed by some who seem to prefer that a mystery remain a mystery (even when the mystery has long since been solved)... to keep the mystique in their practice.

Be that as it may...

There are some good reasons why no one is trying to elucidate what they are doing, a key one being that when it was done in the past (and there has been some very detailed information provided, at length, on various forums over the years), the generosity was abused in very brazen ways. Once burned, twice shy. Or make that "many times burned, finally shy." :sorry: Additionally, those who are training it regularly and deeply under others' tutelage, are not in a position, ethically, to give out what in some cases is proprietary information -- particularly involving personalized training methods; it's up to those from whom they are learning to initiate such discussions.

It's not that folks are all secret-y to be coy; there just isn't anything positive to be gained from openly handing out details that can be misunderstood, misused, abused, exploited or falsely claimed by others. Who knows who-all is reading these forums? The 'net is the best way to "share" information with a billion of your closest strangers...

So, I suspect that there will continue to be posts exhorting others to just go and feel it, meet the people. There are many private conversations, on private discussion boards, going on as a result, and you will not find very much offered in public Internet venues. I doubt much will change unless and until IP and aiki become more mainstream and thus more in the public domain and less proprietary so that it is discussed as openly and freely as conventional athletics. That could be a while, but it could happen.

gregstec
12-08-2012, 08:50 PM
Considering the wealth of scholarship dwelling on AikiWeb alone -- Ellis Amdur, Dan Harden, Chris Li, Peter Goldsbury, just to name a tiny fraction --there is enough historical and tangible, physical evidence in place to be very certain that the methods for the unusual power that drove the skills demonstrated by S. Takeda, Y. Sagawa, K. Horikawa and M. Ueshiba are still very much alive and being practiced by contemporary martial artists, including some who post on and read AikiWeb. Again and again, the evidence, including invidivuals actually duplicating Ueshiba's internal skills and having them confirmed by PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY TRAINED WITH AND FELT UESHIBA, have been reported here, but summarily dismissed by some who seem to prefer that a mystery remain a mystery (even when the mystery has long since been solved)... to keep the mystique in their practice.

Be that as it may...

There are some good reasons why no one is trying to elucidate what they are doing, a key one being that when it was done in the past (and there has been some very detailed information provided, at length, on various forums over the years), the generosity was abused in very brazen ways. Once burned, twice shy. Or make that "many times burned, finally shy." :sorry: Additionally, those who are training it regularly and deeply under others' tutelage, are not in a position, ethically, to give out what in some cases is proprietary information -- particularly involving personalized training methods; it's up to those from whom they are learning to initiate such discussions.

It's not that folks are all secret-y to be coy; there just isn't anything positive to be gained from openly handing out details that can be misunderstood, misused, abused, exploited or falsely claimed by others. Who knows who-all is reading these forums? The 'net is the best way to "share" information with a billion of your closest strangers...

So, I suspect that there will continue to be posts exhorting others to just go and feel it, meet the people. There are many private conversations, on private discussion boards, going on as a result, and you will not find very much offered in public Internet venues. I doubt much will change unless and until IP and aiki become more mainstream and thus more in the public domain and less proprietary so that it is discussed as openly and freely as conventional athletics. That could be a while, but it could happen.

well said...

aristofanis
12-09-2012, 06:48 AM
Is there any IP in kendo?

MM
12-09-2012, 09:11 AM
Is there any IP in kendo?

So many answers. If you read all the posts about IP/aiki, you find that it isn't a simple matter of "Is there any IP in ...".

Liu Chengde, Chin, Akazawa, Okamoto, Shirata, etc, all had to learn it from somewhere. More important questions should be:

1. Who has IP/aiki?
1a. To what degree?

2. Can they teach it?
2a. Do their students have it in progressive levels?

How to judge answers?

1. He/She must absolutely, without question, stand out from all other martial artists. And also do so outside of any technique or waza. High ranking kendo people could not understand how Ueshiba was doing things.
1a. Train with a wide variety of people. Research for known, vetted people. Martial artists went to Ueshiba because he was well known and vetted as having extraordinary skills.

2. Train with them. If you haven't started standing out in 3-5 years, the answer is no.
2a. This also will give you the answer to 2. Not amount of knowledge of techniques or kata, but unusual abilities/power/strength within waza and more importantly outside of it.

Finally when looking, IP/aiki should be able to be used in any martial art because it changes the body, not amasses techniques. As Ueshiba said, paraphrasing, Aiki makes everything better.

Mark

lbb
12-09-2012, 09:30 AM
That was a great post Mary but I see things a little simpler than that.
IP people generally raise hackles because once they feel this they say this is Aikido.
it's my opinion that it has been a series of those in Aikido who choose to attack the IP people personally, describing them in every manner of derogatory commentary imaginable. I've seen it over and over, were I home at my computer I could prove it in about a half an hour: with articles from shihans and all manner of posts doing exactly as you described questioning motivations, practices, insinuating people are brainwashed, herd mentalities, con man, snake oil salesman.... the list goes on and on.
Opinion is not required.... I've saved many of the posts.

I'm sure you have saved many of the posts, and maybe you could prove it (although as yet you haven't, so although you say "opinion is not required", ironically that's exactly what you're offering at this point). I just don't think proving it is important. I think it's a waste of time and energy. Squabbling children concern themselves with who started it and who said the worst thing. Adults need to concern themselves with solutions rather than with blame.

The real dispute should be over whether this work is in fact the original work Ueshiba was doing and that it is in fact the very heart of Aikido. It is that one...singular....point, that has caused people in the community to react and respond defensively. Being told you're not doing something correct or that you haven't understood something you been doing for years, is challenging enough for anyone. now hearing it is being played out and proved to be true on a worldwide stage, is not welcomed news for all parties involved. All too often this has evoked an emotional response from those in the community

I have to tell you, Dan, that MY hackles ALWAYS raise when I'm told what the "real dispute should be". It sounds like you're telling me what I should be concerned with, what I should be thinking about and spending my time on. I have a way of resisting people who tell me what my priorities should be. Maybe I don't see any need for any dispute at all. Maybe I just don't think that anyone, in this day and age (and with the possible exception of the few still living who trained with him) is able to authoritatively state what Ueshiba was doing. I say this simply as a matter of logic, because something is always lost in translation. Get six people together and play a game of telephone, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Maybe I'm just one of those who views WWUD as a vain exercise in trying to prove the unprovable. Whatever anyone is doing today should stand on its own merits, without this pseudo-religious appeal to a long-dead authority. In my opinion, such appeals to authority detract from one's position rather than lend it merit.

I think we can all do better.
Dan

No doubt about that.

lbb
12-09-2012, 09:32 AM
Sticks and stones.....just because someone does or says something that one does not like does that mean one has to retaliate in like kind? Big deal if someone has that opinion. Does that change who you are? Does that make you less? If you know who you are and what you are capable of why does it matter if someone else, a stranger on the internet no less, has some other opinion right or wrong? if a person listens great, and if they choose not to hear you... well that's their loss not yours. What does it really take away from you?

Who are you talking to, Cherie?

You have no idea of just what I can or cannot do. I did not speak about your motivation, mindset commitment other than to follow the thought you yourself posted about not being willing to step outside of your comfort zone and to be grateful that I have teachers who are not afraid to do so since it has benefited me. I am sorry that you are unable to do the same.

Who on EARTH are you talking to, Cherie?

Howard Prior
12-09-2012, 10:43 AM
...Liu Chengde, Chin, Akazawa, Okamoto, Shirata, etc...

Chin?

Gary David
12-09-2012, 10:49 AM
Chin?

Howard
A line from an old old song....."When they were giving out chins, I thought they said 'gin' and I ordered a double"

Seeing you like the ocean......

"If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck
I'd dive to the bottom to get one sweet suck
But the ocean ain't whiskey and I ain't a duck
So we'll round up the cattle and then we'll get drunk"
Tex Ritter



Gary

MM
12-09-2012, 10:55 AM
Chin?

Sam Chin of I Liq Chuan.

MM
12-09-2012, 11:10 AM
Maybe I just don't think that anyone, in this day and age (and with the possible exception of the few still living who trained with him) is able to authoritatively state what Ueshiba was doing. I say this simply as a matter of logic, because something is always lost in translation. Get six people together and play a game of telephone, and you'll see what I'm talking about.



I would be hesitant to rely upon those theories. Since most of us haven't trained directly with Ueshiba, lets instead look at how many of us have trained with students who were there when Ueshiba taught.

How many would have you trained with?

On our end, that would be quite a lot. No, probably more than a lot.

As for something lost in translation? It's funny in a not so funny manner that I trained with some one who was there when Ueshiba was teaching and quite a few of the exercises that Dan learned down through a Daito Ryu heritage were nearly exact to what Ueshiba taught. IP/aiki has specific training. It was passed along, it didn't get mistranslated, but all of it wasn't taught to everyone.

If you're keen on putting us in a "herd", then by the very nature of our training, we are the "herd" closest to how Ueshiba trained. No, I wouldn't really use those theories at all.

Howard Prior
12-09-2012, 12:49 PM
Gentlemen, thanks.

Mark - as I was turning to aikiweb a few minutes ago it suddenly hit me who you were talking about. Had I been thinking clearer earlier I might have gotten it then.

Gary - a double entendre? I do like the ocean...

Howard

Basia Halliop
12-09-2012, 01:02 PM
Whatever anyone is doing today should stand on its own merits, without this pseudo-religious appeal to a long-dead authority. In my opinion, such appeals to authority detract from one's position rather than lend it merit.

Nicely put!

lbb
12-09-2012, 02:37 PM
I would be hesitant to rely upon those theories.

I haven't stated any theories.

Since most of us haven't trained directly with Ueshiba, lets instead look at how many of us have trained with students who were there when Ueshiba taught.

How many would have you trained with?

I'm not sure how to parse that sentence.

If you're keen on putting us in a "herd", then by the very nature of our training, we are the "herd" closest to how Ueshiba trained. No, I wouldn't really use those theories at all.

"Herd"? Who used that word?

Do not put words into my mouth.

Cady Goldfield
12-09-2012, 06:34 PM
As for something lost in translation? It's funny in a not so funny manner that I trained with some one who was there when Ueshiba was teaching and quite a few of the exercises that Dan learned down through a Daito Ryu heritage were nearly exact to what Ueshiba taught. IP/aiki has specific training. It was passed along, it didn't get mistranslated, but all of it wasn't taught to everyone.


Funny how ages-old disciplines and skills, such as musical-instrument playing, blacksmithing and swordsmithing, etc. can be handed down generation after generation with their integrity and specific "recipes" intact, yet when it comes to IP/Aiki people are willing to put blinders on their common sense and deny that these skills, too, have been handed down intact along the generations. In any discipline there may be creative tweaks to individual artistic expression, but the essential integrity remains because the basic methods and principles have not been messed with.

MM
12-09-2012, 07:44 PM
I haven't stated any theories.

I'm not sure how to parse that sentence.

"Herd"? Who used that word?

Do not put words into my mouth.

Sorry, Mary, should have made it clearer that I was using your post as a springboard and "you" was plural.

So, the theory is that no one can "authoritatively state what Ueshiba was doing". I think that's fairly easy to disprove once the research is done.

The parsing was supposed to be, "How many have you trained with?". Again, "you" being plural and addressing the readers.

The "herd" was from Mary Eastland, but she merely voiced the term. Others thought it, perhaps not in that exact word, but the notion was the same. How many times have people been exasperated because "we" "hijacked" a thread? The funny thing is that I did an analysis (several times) of the total threads within a certain period of time and how many of those threads had IP/aiki interjected. The percentage was small. Still, it's the perception that counts when the truth is hard to accept.

Tengu859
12-09-2012, 08:22 PM
To The IP/AIKI Gang,

Just one question...why are "ewe" guys and gals always hijacking, train wrecking, and otherwise causing trouble...here on Aikiweb?!?!?!? :0)

ChrisW

stan baker
12-09-2012, 10:11 PM
Hi Chris
Trying to bring out what has been hidden
Stan

Tengu859
12-10-2012, 04:03 AM
Stan,

Cool. I've got "HIP" issues as well. That's why I'm goingback to basics...being in "harmony" with the universe!!! I gotta get of my high horse and get on that floating bridge!!! :0)

Take Care,

ChrisW

phitruong
12-10-2012, 06:44 AM
To The IP/AIKI Gang,

Just one question...why are "ewe" guys and gals always hijacking, train wrecking, and otherwise causing trouble...here on Aikiweb?!?!?!? :0)

ChrisW

because we have imagination? :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VONqUbx3r8

* yes, i got kids and they have such wonderful imagination. *

HL1978
12-10-2012, 08:16 AM
Is there any IP in kendo?

It is by and large completely gone, the same is true in ZNKR iaido, though perhaps the previous generation had it, such as Iwata sensei, or Mori Mochida (you can find videos of both on youtube). Artifacts are still there (like in judo), but the knowledge of what it is and how to develop it is mostly gone, or if present, kept only to a few people.

That doesn't mean individual people aren't working on it (like me), but I have been to seminars with kendo hachidan, and iaido hachidan, including members of the ZNKR iaido committee. They know how to use their hips, and will give exercises for how to do that, but they don't move like someone with IP knowledge.

I've had various kodansha level people tell me that I move incorrectly, and that we don't need that kind of power anymore in kendo and iaido.

lbb
12-10-2012, 08:26 AM
Sorry, Mary, should have made it clearer that I was using your post as a springboard and "you" was plural.

Fair enough, thanks for the explanation. For what it's worth, I think the dialogue is slowly improving. We'll get there eventually.

Basia Halliop
12-10-2012, 10:59 AM
So, the theory is that no one can "authoritatively state what Ueshiba was doing". I think that's fairly easy to disprove once the research is done

For me, this isn't really the important question. As someone pointed out, it's still just an appeal to authority, which to me isn't really much of an argument for something - it kind of feels like changing the subject (I know it isn't intended that way). It simply doesn't really do much to help me figure out if something is going to be important or useful to me in my own life. It's like trying to sell a product by telling me that a lot of really cool people use it -- I've never found those kinds of ads to be particularly relevant to me, or even to particularly pique my interest. Fundamentally if something's interesting it's because it's interesting itself.

In the end, for me whether something interests me enough to make an effort to learn more about it or not is going to come down to the actual content. Unfortunately this can be a barrier in this particular case since the things being spoken of are kinesthetic and it seems to be pretty difficult to have a verbal discussion about them, particularly without prior knowledge. So I guess I do see why discussions often just devolve into appeals to authority... But sadly the result is that the discussions can be kind of boring and off-putting to someone who isn't already fascinated by the subject.

DH
12-10-2012, 03:17 PM
I just don't think that anyone, in this day and age (and with the possible exception of the few still living who trained with him) is able to authoritatively state what Ueshiba was doing. I say this simply as a matter of logic, because something is always lost in translation. Whatever anyone is doing today should stand on its own merits, without this pseudo-religious appeal to a long-dead authority. In my opinion, such appeals to authority detract from one's position rather than lend it merit.
I would only state that what Ueshiba was actually doing and what he was practicing is known. Just not by you and also not by many, many people who did train with him. They were just as ignorant of the work involved as anyone else.
Traning with Ueshiba was NEVER a qualifyer of understanding or reproducing his power.
And THAT is why so many feel like they do and why I others are exceptional.

There are two ways to do aikido; external or internal.
There isn't a day in your life that someone will be able to produce the power or the aiki that I can produce if you do not understand what he was talking about and what he was doing. Chiba admitted it openly. So did many others. But make no mistake, what he was talking about was never dead, it is capable of being translated and it is teachable. Tomato and Tomahto does NOT apply. It is NOT the same thing with a different pronounciation. It just sounds that way to those who really only know one way to try and do these things; external.

1. We should not be looking to those who do not feel unusual
If you....feel like everyone else. Studying with them is going to produce what? Just another average MAer.
2. We also should not be looking to someone (big shot Japanese or Chinese included) who actually does feel unusual, but cannot or will not teach.
Studying with them is going to produce what?Just another average MAer.

We need to find people who are very unusual, who can teach. It has always been that way, it is still that way. Otherwise, in ten years, everyone is going to feel exactly like they do today
Is there a right and wrong in the Martial arts?
Well...if we're trying to avoid being average.....Yes there is a superior way to train.

In the end we have a whole of people with rank and experience in several different budo who do not impress me even a little bit. What they have been doing for 40 years, beyond wrecking their bodies, learning a bunch of waza and making alot of friends is beyond me. You could not pay me to move like them or adopt their level "understanding." As has been predicted, and stated over and over, they continue to fail, over and over when faced with people who are making the very claims that you say are not true or are unsupportable. Have you ever wandered, truly considered, how this level of consistency keeps happening? It's almost 100%.

So contrary to your own argument, the debate is only sustainable on the internet. One after another, shodan to shihan, the people who feel it......decide to train the methods we say Ueshiba was doing. Why?
It only takes a few minutes to see that Ueshiba was right after all.
Dan

DH
12-10-2012, 03:37 PM
A pseudo-religious appeal to a long-dead authority.....only applies when you:
1. Do not know what he was talking about
2. Do not know it exists elsewhere and produced others like him.
3. Cannot do anything like what he was doing in the first place.

Once you fix those three things, a lot of other stuff starts to make much more sense.
Dan