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Alberto_Italiano
11-30-2012, 06:17 PM
Check the type of training that a fighter undergoes champ or not champ this training is not unusual and is the type of preparation required also in serious MMA i guess
btw it's also fun to watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN5TG3kUoNE

It is clear that in aikido we are not routinely prepared for this type of demand or opponent
We are just not used to that speed and to dodge stuff within milliseconds
It may help to be able to for between slow and flabby yokomenuchis and gunshots there are many middleways

So #1 you'd need to include some of that workout. If u can't with a partner get a ball and with a not too long rope make it dangle from somewhere. Punch it uniquely with the intention to

1) dodge it when it bounces back and is one inch from you (as if it were a jab) do not doge from far away learn to dodge from close quarters
2) duck and dodge (as if it were a hook)
3) learn to step away sideways ultrafast
4) learn to change direction suddenly as you step away (now u see me now u dont)
5) learn to step away backward ultrafast (after you have dodged) so to take away the distance
6) learn to get in as you keep dodging and you advance
7) go in circles around it as you hit (or miss) it and it challenges you bouncing in unpredictable manners

If you realize that after about 60 seconds of this you're almost spent you won't withstand an attack by a skilled puncher. Your goal is to be able to do that for at least 30 minutes (at a fast pace no leisure) within 9 months if you want to stand with some leisure 3 full minutes of a very bad punching attack. You can do it if you train at that at least 2 hours a week (you go to the dojo any other day? Cool u have time)

Once prepared athletically and with better reflexes if facing this attack do not try just to keep the distance. He might reach you in an instant for fighters actively pursue you

Dodge by ducking instead as you advance as if to clinch
Kkeep your hands on your face for you will be welcomed with anything and plenty of it
Protect the tip of your chin because a hook or uppercut there may knock your out because his force sums up to yours (your advancing)

When you duck try to see if you can straighthen up with the right timing namely close to his body and having both his arms at your side. Push him and grab that arm. His other arm may hit you he has 2 and uses them without qualms
Grin and bear it for what you want is a hold of one of his arms

If he evades (and he certainly may) you escape too. Step away man for he will be back hittin u in less than a second!!
Repeat ur attempt

If you manage to grab his arm arnlock. An effective armlock may end the story
Or if you can kotegaeshi (chances of shiho nage are minimal)

Don't go for his legs. As you try to grab them he may take the distance out of you with one mere step back and you will be unbalanced grabbing flies
Don't try to kick his legs wont do much to fighters and may be successful once in 100 times provided ur opponent has not badly beaten your face already 99 times as you tried (instance here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quQazKRAZYs and keep in mind that the champ there never punched though the face of Inoki was fully exposed and within reach almost always for he knew it was not a fight but a show for fun)

Just my penny you may have better ideas of course

Krystal Locke
12-01-2012, 01:28 AM
How about not getting into fights? Seems to be the best policy. Any fight forced upon me, I'm going to go animal on the person fighting me anyway.....

A whole lotta people seem to believe that the attacker on the street is going to almost certainly be a trained MMA cage fighter. I have really not found this to be the case.

Michael Hackett
12-01-2012, 01:36 AM
Nor have I Krystal, not in thirty years as a cop. Some tough guys and gals, some big and strong, some mean, some vicious, some evil, some just panicked, but no cage fighters. The only "real" martial artist I ever arrested was a yondan in karate on a warrant and he was a perfect gentleman through the process.

Mary Eastland
12-01-2012, 08:24 AM
Or become a boxer.

Alberto_Italiano
12-01-2012, 08:27 AM
How about not getting into fights? Seems to be the best policy. Any fight forced upon me, I'm going to go animal on the person fighting me anyway.....

A whole lotta people seem to believe that the attacker on the street is going to almost certainly be a trained MMA cage fighter. I have really not found this to be the case.

Nobody wants to be in a fight
But then also taking aikido classes becomes questionable if one does it imagining never to meet a fight. Actually not even boxers or MMA guys plan to go into street fistfights

One may argue that one practices aikido for other purposes that are not martial of course
But why dealing with tantos and swords and yokomenuchis to develop a spiritual level when also meditation does that without bothering with that stuff?

So
1) after all Aikido is a martial art too is it?
2) not only aikido but also being athletically prepared for facing a skilled puncher has educational purposes that go beyond a fight
Budo is budo

The average street attacker is normally totally naive and utterly unprepared so you are right so you wont even need aikido for that lad

It all boils down to this do you want to practice your martial art having in mind a serious scenario or do you prefer practicing having in mind an unlearned challenger? i judge none i am just addressing the concerns of those who prefer training have in mind a different scenario

So my point is simple and practical if there is somebody interested in knowing how to deal with the scenario of a skilled puncher (and we have threads on the forum that wondered about this) the answer is that to be ready to deal with skilled punchers it is as simple as this namely you need to introduce into your workout the routines that skilled punchers use to make their ways through punches (#1 to #7)

If one prefers a more practical aikido not necessarily for fighting but because one enjoys the feeling of pushing one's limits somehow with athletical preparation then including part of a fighter's workout may be a great addition to your weekly routines

Of course you could also add basketball and pingpong and surfing and tennis and equestrian routines but would that make sense in a martial context?

If you jog 45 minutes thrice a week that means you will stand 3 minutes in a tight fight because a tight fight is not about a constant aerobic effort but about yanking dodging skipping jumping turning lowering evading in a relentless mix of sudden aerobic and anaerobic thrusts
If you may enjoy being prepared for aikido in that scenario include #1 to #7 in your routines

If you dont enjoy it or you are positive it will never happen or you find no educational purpose in adding that it is quite fine

ps "going animal" against a competent attacker will terminate the defender in a few seconds because the defender will react wildly mostly without guards and meeting up ultrafast punches on eyes teeth jaw lips and nose
this would knock the defender out almost immediately

phitruong
12-01-2012, 09:14 AM
Nor have I Krystal, not in thirty years as a cop. Some tough guys and gals, some big and strong, some mean, some vicious, some evil, some just panicked, but no cage fighters. The only "real" martial artist I ever arrested was a yondan in karate on a warrant and he was a perfect gentleman through the process.

how many with edge weapons? just curious.

Krystal Locke
12-01-2012, 09:34 AM
In a handful of years of bouncing, maybe a couple three hundred fights witnessed and dealt with, I have ended up with a drawer full of knives, knuckles, and other various weapons. I have had one knife pulled on me, half in showing off and half in a desire to mess me up, and one person telling me they had a gun and would use it on me if I bounced them (it wasnt true and he bounced all the way to another country when he landed...). I have seen no weapons used in the fights I've stopped or have seen stopped. We do a pretty good job of finding and removing weapons in the patdown line.

I dont know if I (and the company I work with) am lucky or we just have a good program for preventing weapon related violence. But I am certainly not complaining.

Krystal Locke
12-01-2012, 10:01 AM
Nobody wants to be in a fight
But then also taking aikido classes becomes questionable if one does it imagining never to meet a fight. Actually not even boxers or MMA guys plan to go into street fistfights

One may argue that one practices aikido for other purposes that are not martial of course
But why dealing with tantos and swords and yokomenuchis to develop a spiritual level when also meditation does that without bothering with that stuff?

So
1) after all Aikido is a martial art too is it?
2) not only aikido but also being athletically prepared for facing a skilled puncher has educational purposes that go beyond a fight
Budo is budo

The average street attacker is normally totally naive and utterly unprepared so you are right so you wont even need aikido for that lad

It all boils down to this do you want to practice your martial art having in mind a serious scenario or do you prefer practicing having in mind an unlearned challenger? i judge none i am just addressing the concerns of those who prefer training have in mind a different scenario

So my point is simple and practical if there is somebody interested in knowing how to deal with the scenario of a skilled puncher (and we have threads on the forum that wondered about this) the answer is that to be ready to deal with skilled punchers it is as simple as this namely you need to introduce into your workout the routines that skilled punchers use to make their ways through punches (#1 to #7)

If one prefers a more practical aikido not necessarily for fighting but because one enjoys the feeling of pushing one's limits somehow with athletical preparation then including part of a fighter's workout may be a great addition to your weekly routines

Of course you could also add basketball and pingpong and surfing and tennis and equestrian routines but would that make sense in a martial context?

If you jog 45 minutes thrice a week that means you will stand 3 minutes in a tight fight because a tight fight is not about a constant aerobic effort but about yanking dodging skipping jumping turning lowering evading in a relentless mix of sudden aerobic and anaerobic thrusts
If you may enjoy being prepared for aikido in that scenario include #1 to #7 in your routines

If you dont enjoy it or you are positive it will never happen or you find no educational purpose in adding that it is quite fine

ps "going animal" against a competent attacker will terminate the defender in a few seconds because the defender will react wildly mostly without guards and meeting up ultrafast punches on eyes teeth jaw lips and nose
this would knock the defender out almost immediately

If we want really "real" training for a real life likely attack we should get our family (because most attacks are from people we know, or at least share some points of connection) all liquored up (because a whole lotta conflicts involve drugs and alcohol) and pissed off at us, and then try to do aikido on someone who has no idea how to move, who has no ukemi to speak of, and really doesn't know what is going on.

I may have a better animal inside than some folk. When push comes to shove, I cover up fairly well, can take a fair punch or two, and cheat like a total bitch. If I am fighting, I am fighting for my life and I am not concerned with my attacker's. There will be everything against the rules and dishonorable from me. Fingers in eyes, teeth and more teeth, every weapon I possess and can scrounge up will be used against my attacker. Finding the animal is more a matter of removing the inhibitions than training.

And I really really really dont want to fall into the trap of fighting someone else's fight. I see this happen a LOT. Someone who has one set of skills will have an attacker show a different set of skills, like squaring off, shuffling and putting up a boxing type guard, for example, and the attackee almost reflexively starts imitating their attacker and setting themselves up for the attacker's fight. Bad plan. I want to stay in my style, I want to be able to access my training. That takes some serious mat time, and introspection time.

So yeah, it wouldn't kill us to train against some fast punchers, it may happen, and the training couldn't hurt, but I am not sure we need to train the way they do in order to fight our fight against them. I pay more attention to ma-ai, awareness, maintaining shikaku and de-escalation techniques for that level of self-defense.

Michael Hackett
12-01-2012, 10:33 AM
Phi,

I only had two edged weapon encounters. I investigated many, many more after the event, but only had the two occasions. Blunt force weapons such as bats, sticks, bottles appeared a few times, but it was usually just fists, kicks, or "rasslin" from the suspects.

ChrisHein
12-01-2012, 12:52 PM
The problem we get into here is one of context.

The OP's post brings up some good points, and some good exercises. The question we must first ask though, is, why?

I don't believe it's a question of, "why do we need this, we study the art of peace". We are studying a martial art, that means learning to be martial, or able to deal with physical conflict. So it is, as martial artists, at least partially our goal, to become martially effective. So one might say, the reason we need to add this to Aikido, is because we need Aikido to be more martially effective.

But if we look at this from the perspective of context, we can start to see a better reason we need to ask, "why should we add this to Aikido". Do professional boxers want to add kicking to their boxing? Now this might sound like a crazy question. But honestly, do you think Floyd Mayweather is getting video clips of Thai boxers, showing how powerful their kicks are, and posting them on boxing forums in an attempt to get western boxers to learn how to kick?

That is kind of a silly question, I know, but it's only silly because you realize 100% that he's not trying to get boxers to learn how to kick. So we must ask ourselves, why isn't he. Is it because he thinks kicking is ineffective? While I don't know his personal feelings on kicking, I'm sure, if he saw effective Thai boxers, he would understand quickly that their kicking is effective, and useful. Kicking is martial, and effective, but out of the context of western boxing, so boxers don't study it. If they wanted to learn how to kick, they wouldn't add kicking to western boxing, they would simply go to a Thai boxing gym.

Aikido doesn't teach boxing skill. While it does teach some rudimentary unarmed striking, boxing is not what you learn in Aikido. And that's okay. When you go into a BJJ school, you're also not learning to box. But we all know how effective learning BJJ can be. Boxing is outside of BJJ's context. So if you want to train boxing on your own, or join a professional boxing gym, I think that's a great idea! But it's not what we do in Aikido.

Michael Hackett
12-01-2012, 06:44 PM
To spin off Chris' comments a little, I agree that context is everything. If one wants to be a well-rounded martial artist and capable of addressing almost any event, then it becomes imperative (in my mind anyway) to know striking, throwing, pinning and grappling skills. Some of us are perfectly happy knowing some of those skills and aren't willing to devote the time and effort to the others that offer more than our parent art and that's just fine. Others feel the need to study all the various arts to round out their skills and that's fine too. In either case, it is highly unlikely that a person will ever be confronted by a skilled martial artist in a violent episode. If it does happen, it will most likely be some street thug who is good at brawling. What it comes down to then is the attitude and mindset of the martial artist who is attacked and there is some real value to Krystal's "going all animal". If you couple some real skill in whatever art with a warrior mentality, you will be ahead of the game.

Kevin Leavitt
12-01-2012, 08:25 PM
Alberto wrote:

So my point is simple and practical if there is somebody interested in knowing how to deal with the scenario of a skilled puncher (and we have threads on the forum that wondered about this) the answer is that to be ready to deal with skilled punchers it is as simple as this namely you need to introduce into your workout the routines that skilled punchers use to make their ways through punches (#1 to #7)


You simply need to develop ways to defeat his strategy. Lots of thoughts come to mind. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Always cheat...always win. OODA, etc, etc.

Sure, warriors need to be in shape and must know how to do the things necessary in order to win the fight.

Another platitude...."a man's gots to know his limits."

Anyway, I think it is a wrong assumption that you need to learn how to box in order to defeat a boxer. I simply need to understand his strategy and figure out what I can do in order to defeat it. If you watch carefully the evolution of MMA from UFC 1 - UFC 6 closely, you can see this evolve with skills, paradigms and rules in the golden years of MMA. today in MMA it has become a very close science of "inches" versus "miles" in differences.

There is a reason there are no purist such as boxers in MMA and it has gravitated to the tactics that are seen in MMA. Some of it has to do with effectiveness and efficiency some of it has to do with the rules and environment. However, mainly it is that specialization has proven to not be a good thing in less constrained environments. MMA I think everyone will agree is less constrained than boxing. And real fights are even more less constrained than MMA.

Now if I am boxing a boxer then yeah I probably ain't gonna do so well if I am playing by his rules. However, if I am not constrained by his rules and he is not familiar with my world...well then I might very well, most likely, have some advantages.

it really all goes back to Musashi and Sun Tzu in the end.

aiki-jujutsuka
12-02-2012, 12:58 PM
I'd like to echo what others have said about the context of the art and the skills developed within it as well as the likelihood of fighting a competent boxer. It all comes down to self-defence vs contest. If we begin to incorporate boxing training methods then naturally it becomes about contest - who has the faster reactions, better feet movement and head movement, who hits harder, who has the crisper technique etc. Self-defence is not about a contest of durability, speed or technique. From the majority of CCTV footage I've seen of street fights most people throw wild haymakers, they don't 'box'. If someone gets into a fight its normally because they see the red mist and lose control in a rush of blood to the head. Professional boxers and MMA fighters train deliberately in order to fight 25-30 minutes. They condition their bodies to be able to endure an incredible amount of punishment and develop their stamina and cardio accordingly to make sure they're the ones with enough energy to push on in the latter rounds of the fight to give them that edge. Street fights don't go 30 minutes. They're spontaneous acts of violence and will probably only last a couple of minutes realistically before someone gets seriously injured. People who get into fights are often inebriated or have insecurity issues, which they over-compensate for. They are not professional martial artists or combat athletes who've dedicated their lives to the sports of boxing or MMA.

jeremymcmillan
12-02-2012, 01:01 PM
Check the type of training that a fighter undergoes champ or not champ this training is not unusual and is the type of preparation required also in serious MMA i guess
btw it's also fun to watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN5TG3kUoNE

It is clear that in aikido we are not routinely prepared for this type of demand or opponent
We are just not used to that speed and to dodge stuff within milliseconds
It may help to be able to for between slow and flabby yokomenuchis and gunshots there are many middleways

So #1 you'd need to include some of that workout. If u can't with a partner get a ball and with a not too long rope make it dangle from somewhere. Punch it uniquely with the intention to

1) dodge it when it bounces back and is one inch from you (as if it were a jab) do not doge from far away learn to dodge from close quarters
2) duck and dodge (as if it were a hook)
3) learn to step away sideways ultrafast
4) learn to change direction suddenly as you step away (now u see me now u dont)
5) learn to step away backward ultrafast (after you have dodged) so to take away the distance
6) learn to get in as you keep dodging and you advance
7) go in circles around it as you hit (or miss) it and it challenges you bouncing in unpredictable manners

If you realize that after about 60 seconds of this you're almost spent you won't withstand an attack by a skilled puncher. Your goal is to be able to do that for at least 30 minutes (at a fast pace no leisure) within 9 months if you want to stand with some leisure 3 full minutes of a very bad punching attack. You can do it if you train at that at least 2 hours a week (you go to the dojo any other day? Cool u have time)

Once prepared athletically and with better reflexes if facing this attack do not try just to keep the distance. He might reach you in an instant for fighters actively pursue you

Dodge by ducking instead as you advance as if to clinch
Kkeep your hands on your face for you will be welcomed with anything and plenty of it
Protect the tip of your chin because a hook or uppercut there may knock your out because his force sums up to yours (your advancing)

When you duck try to see if you can straighthen up with the right timing namely close to his body and having both his arms at your side. Push him and grab that arm. His other arm may hit you he has 2 and uses them without qualms
Grin and bear it for what you want is a hold of one of his arms

If he evades (and he certainly may) you escape too. Step away man for he will be back hittin u in less than a second!!
Repeat ur attempt

If you manage to grab his arm arnlock. An effective armlock may end the story
Or if you can kotegaeshi (chances of shiho nage are minimal)

Don't go for his legs. As you try to grab them he may take the distance out of you with one mere step back and you will be unbalanced grabbing flies
Don't try to kick his legs wont do much to fighters and may be successful once in 100 times provided ur opponent has not badly beaten your face already 99 times as you tried (instance here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quQazKRAZYs and keep in mind that the champ there never punched though the face of Inoki was fully exposed and within reach almost always for he knew it was not a fight but a show for fun)

Just my penny you may have better ideas of course

Nobody wants to be in a fight
But then also taking aikido classes becomes questionable if one does it imagining never to meet a fight. Actually not even boxers or MMA guys plan to go into street fistfights

One may argue that one practices aikido for other purposes that are not martial of course
But why dealing with tantos and swords and yokomenuchis to develop a spiritual level when also meditation does that without bothering with that stuff?

So
1) after all Aikido is a martial art too is it?
2) not only aikido but also being athletically prepared for facing a skilled puncher has educational purposes that go beyond a fight
Budo is budo

The average street attacker is normally totally naive and utterly unprepared so you are right so you wont even need aikido for that lad

It all boils down to this do you want to practice your martial art having in mind a serious scenario or do you prefer practicing having in mind an unlearned challenger? i judge none i am just addressing the concerns of those who prefer training have in mind a different scenario

So my point is simple and practical if there is somebody interested in knowing how to deal with the scenario of a skilled puncher (and we have threads on the forum that wondered about this) the answer is that to be ready to deal with skilled punchers it is as simple as this namely you need to introduce into your workout the routines that skilled punchers use to make their ways through punches (#1 to #7)

If one prefers a more practical aikido not necessarily for fighting but because one enjoys the feeling of pushing one's limits somehow with athletical preparation then including part of a fighter's workout may be a great addition to your weekly routines

Of course you could also add basketball and pingpong and surfing and tennis and equestrian routines but would that make sense in a martial context?

If you jog 45 minutes thrice a week that means you will stand 3 minutes in a tight fight because a tight fight is not about a constant aerobic effort but about yanking dodging skipping jumping turning lowering evading in a relentless mix of sudden aerobic and anaerobic thrusts
If you may enjoy being prepared for aikido in that scenario include #1 to #7 in your routines

If you dont enjoy it or you are positive it will never happen or you find no educational purpose in adding that it is quite fine

ps "going animal" against a competent attacker will terminate the defender in a few seconds because the defender will react wildly mostly without guards and meeting up ultrafast punches on eyes teeth jaw lips and nose
this would knock the defender out almost immediately

I think you're missing the point. If you pay close enough attention, which is only possible with an attitude of compassion towards an attacker, when your whole body/mind is no longer consumed with the preconception of the attack as if it's all about you, the attacker's feelings become apparent. From this perspective it becomes easier to predict what the attacker is going to do, and is even possible to know what the attacker will want to do before the attacker is aware of these intentions. In combat this gives you a jump on the attacker.

You're absolutely right about the physical limitations a skilled puncher places on a defender. What if you expand the perspective to include the ki limitations a skilled puncher places on a defender? I'm not talking about magical mystical ki, just the change in flow of energy over time. If you want to be academically strict: a complex model of tensors, or force vectors changing over time. When a body starts to move, imagine tracers following all the possible paths of fists and feet and elbows, and there will be hot spots in all the possible changes over time, and there will also be cold spots. Good taisabaki maneuvers nage's body into Uke's cold spots (low energy), and Uke into Nage's hot spots.

Humans are predator animals, and our bodies (eyes) and minds are naturally inclined to forward-focus on a cone shaped zone of opportunity. Zen, and Aikido require a more circumspect perspective. If you look at all the hot spots created by the tensors you would trace out if a boxer went step by step through every variation of every punching attack combination (maybe thousands), this would (I hypothesize) be a superset of the actual hot spots of things that work when Nage is performing good blending taisabaki. These hot spots will reflect the confidence Uke has in particular attack paths. Uke will have to zero in on Nage's perceived weaknesses and execute on them in space and time. Now what if you take into account that Uke's ability to perceive Nage's "tell" for each weakness is different (how close is the tell to the cone of opportunity perception for how long)? Those weaknesses that are easier to spot will be hot spots, and the ones that are harder to spot will have lower probability of success. Magic has sleight-of-hand, but Aikido has sleight-of-whole-body.

This takes the hypothetical martial art up from a contest of strength, speed, and ki, into a contest of minds. when I watch the video clip you've posted, maybe it's me, but I see losers taking a beating because they've subconsciously or by default decided to stand there and take a beating. Maybe they were a contender for a while, but something happened and they got into a disadvantaged position. That's sad, but that's what a purely martial art will look like when one otherwise well-matched opponent has a mental edge. The dominant guy today will be the guy standing there taking a beating tomorrow, when for whatever reason the other guy got an edge. This is the precipice from which the spiritual focus of Aikido becomes clear.

If you are determined to become dominant on speed and power alone, the guy with better Ki will come along and own you. If you are determined to become dominant on speed, power, and Ki alone, the guy with Aiki (practicing fighting art like Penn and Teller practice magic) will come along and own you.

Of course I can talk about it, but I can't (consistently, yet) do it. That's why I train. Thinking about it before doing it is initially a weakness because it requires me to expend mental energy and time to execute choices and actions which coud and should be effortless, but if I practice like a musician, when I get fluid and musical with it, I will have mastered a higher art.

Let's say someone masters the kind of training regimen you're alluding to. They will possibly have some additional mechanical variations on techniques, but that amounts to little more than personal style I suppose. They will certainly become more fluid in the motions required to face the kind of challenges represented by the training, but when that's exercised in real contest, what is the dominance, the extra milliseconds, the extra power good for? Either they give the other guy a break because it doesn't cost them anything in terms of risk or actual loss, or maybe they use it for a moment of introspection to feel good about themselves, or maybe they spend it vindictively. Maybe they let it look like the first case, when they are really leading the other guy into another attack by projecting a false "tell" of vulnerability so they can go around again. An old man, weaker of muscle, but stronger of mind can make a younger and more physically powerful opponent beat himself up.

So, to wind this all up, what I'm trying to say is that training hard for physical and technical prowess is great, but if you really want to be good, also master the kind of Aiki taught in Daito Ryu. Also please practice with the purpose of Aikido, because without the intention to bring harmony to conflict it's not really Aikido. Aikido seeks to create mental space in a conflict where ethical decisions and actions can be effective. Keep it "real," but make it *good*... at least that's what *I* train for, and what I think needs to be promoted.

SeaGrass
12-02-2012, 01:52 PM
Alberto, have you read this?

http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_Assumptions.htm

You don't out box a boxer, you out cut him with a 3 feet razor :cool: :D

Mert Gambito
12-02-2012, 02:09 PM
The average street attacker is normally totally naive and utterly unprepared

I think this is a very dangerous assumption to make. A lot of criminals, petty or otherwise, are well-practiced, lie in wait, and/or work in teams (pre-meditated, even choreographed attacks). At the minimum, the street attacker will likely be more mentally prepared to do harm than the victim -- with or without martial arts training -- is prepared to address it. Oh, and the idea of a chain-punching street attacker is kind of odd (rather: "many of them never see the knife").

Mert

Alberto_Italiano
12-02-2012, 02:46 PM
All the points you make here are valid I have read them all but I don't find convenient to place lots of quotes to signify my general agreement with all you all say
You all make sense to me

However I have seen a dozen Aikido dojos in my life and my concern is that too many are not very ralistic when facing a fistfigh scenario most of them actually don't seem to understand what it could be about

I totally agree that in a street fight you can find more than that but I think we all concur that a fist fight is something that does not appear unlikely an event in street or"bar" scenarios so i am addressing that

Since I totally understand that one may have not the opportunity (or the interest) of sparring yet I felt many a time concerned about how aikidokas seem unaware generally speaking of the type of demands that a fist fight may unexpectedly impose upon them

So I am trying to propose for those interested a way to compensate this at least a bit
You can

It is true that a fist fight may be stopped soon but I have seen at least twice a serious fistfight in a pub in my life and there was no security and people running away and the guys in one case went on for minutes with devastating effects on their faces

So also if you cannot spar you may want to be aware of what you need
#1 breath
#2 a kind of breath that is not that of jogging but that of jumping skipping yanking pushing running bouncing back skip evade and a lot of things that will place a much higer and unexpected demand on your physiology
#3 some reflexes that do not need to be terrific but that you can improve significantly

So for those interested in setting up a better condition for a fist fight and to be able to make their way through a puncher so to get one of his arms and apply an aikido technique you may want to consider including a workout like the following for explanation purposes

Hitting is done uniquely to make the ball bounce so forget how one hits that's not the point of concern

If you never did and say you jog 2 or 3 times a week you would be startled how easily you may run out of breath in a couple of minutes of that
I don't want that to happen to you if you meet a thug that does some sparring and decides to show off his "techinique" with you in a bar

Build some breath and a bit of reflexes learn how to move unceasingly around and you will stand a better chance of placing your aikido
As you may see it is not too intensive a workout but will place you in a much better condition for a fist fighter

I am just hoping I can save some bad surprise to aikidokas who may think that trying an iriminage on a puncher may suffice you may discover that you need to do more than that to EARN your technique and that's my point and concern for those who may be interested

You will need to work around the guy a bit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpyE6ssxZNk

Michael Hackett
12-02-2012, 06:03 PM
Alberto,

As I understood your first post, it appeared you were talking primarily about technique. With the last, it is clear you are concerned with conditioning. Conditioning is key in either a competitive sport match (boxing, wrestling, MMA or the like) or in a street confrontation. The vast majority of people will simply run out of gas within one minute in either case UNLESS they condition themselves routinely. I suspect the average aikido practitioner will last a little longer than some street thug, but no one will last as long as a serious and trained athlete. Your point about conditioning is well taken and there are many ways to achieve that level of conditioning. My experience is that the average street knucklehead I've encountered is that he was good for about 30 seconds and then started to run down rapidly. Part of that was cardio fitness and another part was the failure to breathe during the event. It seems to me at least that most untrained folks tend to hold their breath during a conflict. Even Floyd Mayweather will run out of gas in less than one round if he doesn't breathe during the round.

Krystal Locke
12-02-2012, 07:24 PM
All the points you make here are valid I have read them all but I don't find convenient to place lots of quotes to signify my general agreement with all you all say
You all make sense to me

However I have seen a dozen Aikido dojos in my life and my concern is that too many are not very ralistic when facing a fistfigh scenario most of them actually don't seem to understand what it could be about

I totally agree that in a street fight you can find more than that but I think we all concur that a fist fight is something that does not appear unlikely an event in street or"bar" scenarios so i am addressing that

Since I totally understand that one may have not the opportunity (or the interest) of sparring yet I felt many a time concerned about how aikidokas seem unaware generally speaking of the type of demands that a fist fight may unexpectedly impose upon them

So I am trying to propose for those interested a way to compensate this at least a bit
You can

It is true that a fist fight may be stopped soon but I have seen at least twice a serious fistfight in a pub in my life and there was no security and people running away and the guys in one case went on for minutes with devastating effects on their faces

So also if you cannot spar you may want to be aware of what you need
#1 breath
#2 a kind of breath that is not that of jogging but that of jumping skipping yanking pushing running bouncing back skip evade and a lot of things that will place a much higer and unexpected demand on your physiology
#3 some reflexes that do not need to be terrific but that you can improve significantly

So for those interested in setting up a better condition for a fist fight and to be able to make their way through a puncher so to get one of his arms and apply an aikido technique you may want to consider including a workout like the following for explanation purposes

Hitting is done uniquely to make the ball bounce so forget how one hits that's not the point of concern

If you never did and say you jog 2 or 3 times a week you would be startled how easily you may run out of breath in a couple of minutes of that
I don't want that to happen to you if you meet a thug that does some sparring and decides to show off his "techinique" with you in a bar

Build some breath and a bit of reflexes learn how to move unceasingly around and you will stand a better chance of placing your aikido
As you may see it is not too intensive a workout but will place you in a much better condition for a fist fighter

I am just hoping I can save some bad surprise to aikidokas who may think that trying an iriminage on a puncher may suffice you may discover that you need to do more than that to EARN your technique and that's my point and concern for those who may be interested

You will need to work around the guy a bit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpyE6ssxZNk

Gotta say, that's a remarkably slow headache bag. Put a lower connection on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnRfr0XH5GY Much better bag, but they are still not working it well. The bungies are way too loose. This is way better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxqBuZClrTU

But I have a weird aikido dojo. We have a couple heavy bags, a headache bag, and I might just dig out my speed bag and put it back up. We NEVER use them in class, I'd hate to waste sensei's time on them, but they are there to use. We've got a lot of pretty high ranked folks who never touch the stuff, but can easily handle a puncher. Usually by maintaining ma-ai until they get an overextended punch they can ride back in or exploit with a technique, we've got a good counterpuncher who is a fine teacher. None of this stuff is specifically taught, but it is all clearly included in our aikido. Our sensei isn't Japanese and is a clear and explicit instructor but we are still expected to steal technique, think about how to apply what we're taught, and figure it out on our own. It is hidden in plain sight, I think that's how the saying goes....

Michael Hackett
12-02-2012, 10:09 PM
Krystal, watching the last video suggested an idea.......it seems like it would be a good drill for an aikidoka to position himself opposite of the striker on the other side of the double-ended bag and work on getting off line as the bag came toward him. Certainly seems like it would challenge one's ma ai and movement - not to mention receiving the occasional smack when the bag connected.

Alberto_Italiano
12-03-2012, 06:54 AM
Alberto,

As I understood your first post, it appeared you were talking primarily about technique. With the last, it is clear you are concerned with conditioning. Conditioning is key in either a competitive sport match (boxing, wrestling, MMA or the like) or in a street confrontation. The vast majority of people will simply run out of gas within one minute in either case UNLESS they condition themselves routinely. I suspect the average aikido practitioner will last a little longer than some street thug, but no one will last as long as a serious and trained athlete. Your point about conditioning is well taken and there are many ways to achieve that level of conditioning. My experience is that the average street knucklehead I've encountered is that he was good for about 30 seconds and then started to run down rapidly. Part of that was cardio fitness and another part was the failure to breathe during the event. It seems to me at least that most untrained folks tend to hold their breath during a conflict. .

yes you rephrased that admirably and better than myself
That was exactly my point what startled me in all those aikido dojos is the lack of conditioning for a real confrontation

Most aikidokas seem really not to know that the demands that a real fight may impose upon them may strike them as totally new and alien to all they have learned

You can place an aikido technique on a fighter but he won't make that easy for you not even nearly close to what we do in randori

Without a proper conditioning for lasting a few minutes of a fight you will never do it so one is at VERY high risk of being game for sport and leisure punching

I just add that it is totally true what you say that most people won't breath I only add that the type of breath you need to work around a relatively skilled puncher is not the type of breath you build up with jogging one needs to condition oneself for a scenario wehere you are asked to move unceasingly in a totally UNEVEN manner whereas jogging is EVEN

My concern is that too many of those nice folks that I saw were one day to face a fight with somebody decently trained will find right now and there that in believe me 30 seconds (btw your number i am so glad you can confirm it is so because most aikidokas seem unaware of this you see and that's why i was concerned) they are spent they don't breath and even if they do breath does not suffice

So my whole point was condition yourself so that you can really stand a chance of applying a technique in a highly mobile setting where continuous uneven aerobic/anaerobic demands will be suddenly placed squarely on your shoulders

Aikidokas forget conditioning and with the term conditioning you summarized brillianty my point thank you for that and for your insight

Alberto_Italiano
12-03-2012, 06:56 AM
Gotta say, that's a remarkably slow headache bag. Put a lower connection on it.



yes I know in fact it was written in the video that the string is too long and that's why in the video was written do this for 15 rounds + moving unceasingly around to compensate that so to last 3 rounds in a real situation

You are totally right an aikido dojo is not the place for this
You don't need to do that in a dojo my point is be aware this demand will be real in a real fight so consider adding this workout when outside the dojo

Alberto_Italiano
12-03-2012, 06:57 AM
Krystal, watching the last video suggested an idea.......it seems like it would be a good drill for an aikidoka to position himself opposite of the striker on the other side of the double-ended bag and work on getting off line as the bag came toward him. Certainly seems like it would challenge one's ma ai and movement - not to mention receiving the occasional smack when the bag connected.

That's exactly how it works and exactly my point thank you for clarifying
An aikidoka needs to go lateral to take hold of an arm and then he can surely place a technique however a skilled puncher will be highly mobile on feet so he will impose on you a rhythm and a necessity to dance around together with him that for most aikidokas would be totally new

Alberto_Italiano
12-03-2012, 07:10 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnRfr0XH5GY Much better bag, but they are still not working it well. The bungies are way too loose. This is way better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxqBuZClrTU

.

yes i did not propose a double end bag because that's not geared to condition for evasion and for dancing around but for hitting which aikidokas don't need and arguably don't even want to do
Those bags are standard in boxing but are used to condition you to HIT a mobile target not really to evade it besides with double end bags you can evade straight punches but you will never dodge to evade hooks

The best would be a short bag like here at 00.48 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUDogb3zO0U
but do not just evade also dance around abundantly for in a real situation you will need to take away the distance frequently unless you're fighting inside a phone boot lol

Most scenarios won't have much space but will have some although in a bar you may trip on stuff fallen around when people panic and begin leaving the place in a disordered rush as you're left there to mind business alone and security may take a while at times to take over

Alberto_Italiano
12-03-2012, 09:44 AM
this is why i don't like quoting it produces too many posts i have no clue how to do multiple quoting in one same post sorry

in case anyone decides to incorporate some of this conditioning remember to make your evasion workout rely on dodging and moving around both and never stop so to build up your breath

In a few months you will be able
As Michael so rightly said if you don't you will be spent in 30 seconds
I did not mention 30 seconds because I thought maybe these guys won't believe me if I give them the true figure
But if you don't condition yourself after 30 seconds of that you will be done as Michael said and you will wonder oh my gosh i cannot believe this i am done already oh my and now what?

In one of the most entertaining 4 mins video ever you may appreciate better why i was concerned about this conditioning if aikidokas were they to face a fist fight

Envision yourself here in both positions
As the one who takes punches imagine yourself having to take hold of an arm or iriminage of somebody who may suddenly reveal very mobile on feet also less than that may suffice

Then imagine yourself as the one who is giving punches and consider how being very mobile may cause troubles to a fighter
that guy there placed no more than 3 punches in 4 minutes

Of course that dancing cannot be imitated but gives an idea why I say that a fight may involve a degree of mobility that may be totally new for aikidokas

In case you wonder how's possibile that the guy is knocked down 4 times with punches that do not appear powerful it happens because they are meetups the guy hits as he steps back the other guy pursues and pam a jab that meets you up precisely on your chin does exactly that you fall down like a bag of potatoes (what you will feel is this a flash of light and your ankles suddenly give way you won't feel them anymore and next thing you know you see the mat)

have fun with the video but be also a bit (a bit man just a bit) prepared
I hope I have been of some help to aikidokas interested in this type of scenario say bar fistfight with a relatively prepared thug who thinks you're gonna be sport for him to tell his friends later

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qC1nmVjtpo

Krystal Locke
12-03-2012, 10:56 AM
yes i did not propose a double end bag because that's not geared to condition for evasion and for dancing around but for hitting which aikidokas don't need and arguably don't even want to do
Those bags are standard in boxing but are used to condition you to HIT a mobile target not really to evade it besides with double end bags you can evade straight punches but you will never dodge to evade hooks

The best would be a short bag like here at 00.48 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUDogb3zO0U
but do not just evade also dance around abundantly for in a real situation you will need to take away the distance frequently unless you're fighting inside a phone boot lol

Most scenarios won't have much space but will have some although in a bar you may trip on stuff fallen around when people panic and begin leaving the place in a disordered rush as you're left there to mind business alone and security may take a while at times to take over

I've found the double end bag very useful for evasion. Hang it a little high (which is a good idea anyway, condition yourself to punch up), put enough tension on it so that it bounces around quickly, but not so much that it doesn't have a couple feet travel if properly smacked, get in close and give it a stiff jab. Just use weight transfer and upper body evasion to avoid getting hit by the return.

But, fights dont always go down like you describe, and we cant train for every situation. It isn't punching, squaring off and floating like a butterfly that wears someone out in a fight. It is fear, having to maintain a heightened sense of awareness, and having to deal with a ginormous adrenaline dump. The only fight I was actually in (meaning that the attacker had engaged me directly rather than me intervening in other folks fights) doing security lasted about 45 seconds, did not involve me moving anything but taking one step into a hanmi and flapping my jaw as I talked the guy down, ended perfectly well, and left my entire body sore for three days.

I think it is better to work on psychological self control and dealing with physiological fear responses than dealing with overly specific defense techniques. If self-defense is what we're training for (and it is fine with me if it isn't) than we would do well to work on the non-physical as much if not more than on the physical. That training has been lacking, at least on an upfront, explicit level in every dojo I've trained in.

To tie it back into aikido, if only loosely, take an On Guard class from Kevin Blok sensei if you get a chance. He will at some point in the class talk about the mindset most likely to get a person home for dinner. Comes across like pirates and ninjas and zombies and Neil DeGrasse Tyson and everything cool and worth watching doing the St Crispin's Day speech from Henry V. You KNOW he's been there, done that, got the tshirt, and is telling you your real business.

The other side of the real fight training question is this... If aikido is a budo of love and harmony, how many dojos provide training in mediation, de-escalation, and communication? Mine doesn't, and I wish it did.

This is a bit more of what it looks like, in my experience. Rambling, skill-less, back and forth, lots of useless folks getting in the way and making things worse, jawingjawingjawing, most likely drunk....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frMg72zD3Ig&list=UU5WdnavJvhpsS89Gbp4sLRA&index=3&feature=plcp

Alberto_Italiano
12-03-2012, 04:26 PM
yes but you know you are right your points make sense

I do not train routinely with that ball in my first video but actually with this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnbGQas8n4g
however proposing this last video would have made no sense and this is why I didn't because this type of training is for a boxer and my intention is not that of transforming an aikidoka into a boxer
Besides the type of exertion that in this video is required is fourfold the one needed in the first I proposed

However I post it so that you may know that I appreciate your consideration and that I totally concur with you in fact it has always been included in my routines
But an aikidoka won't need that much you see

My point is for those who may be interested in taking conditioning a few steps further because a fistfight may impose upon them demands that are totally unexpected so condition yourself a bit for that scenario

Seasoned black belts know this but I have seen countless junior black belts in aikido who seem totally unaware of how demanding a serious fist fight could be

In order for an aikidoka to condition for that 30 mins of workout like in my first video may suffice I would never suggest to any aikidoka to train like in this second video for an aikidoka has a need to evade but not to strike although you evade a bit too in the second video

Thank you for the video you proposed about an average fight indeed they look like that one I could not agree more

But I hope you can see my concern namely were an average aikidoka to meet a decently conditioned fighter he won't last 30 seconds as Michael said and this not because he is stupid but because he is not properly conditioned to dance with the fighter in order eventually to manage grab an arm

A fist fight with a fair fighter won't be like randori you won't iriminage a dude like that he will impose on you a heavy rhythm
So (if you want) be prepared so not to be stunned and to this purpose my first video for an aikidoka may be enough

thank you to you all for your attention and intelligent contributions

Kevin Leavitt
12-03-2012, 08:44 PM
Conditioning is an obvious factor and something we should all do to the best of our ability. However, it is not everything and in "real fighting" it is not the highest priority. Fight Management is what is paramount to everything. That is, knowing how to manage yourself efficiently in the high stress environment.

I have trained highly conditioned Special Operators that have gassed out rapidly in like 30 seconds because of poor fight management skills. The problem is fights tend to be highly anaerobic versus aerobic. The problem with anaerobic is that it is hard to create a sustainable threshold so an decently conditioned person is not that far from a world class conditioned person in the 30 to 60 seconds that a fight will most likely last.

That is not to say that conditioning is not important at all cause it is important for many other reasons, however when you start talking about a fight where in a matter of a few seconds adrenalin, fear, and energy expended can rapidly deplete your ability to fight...having the skills to actually manage the fight under extreme pressure is much more important.

I personally don't put a high priority on learning to fight like a boxer which is a different management strategy for conditioning and skill.

Your better off gassing yourself out rapidly over and over again doing sprawls and burpees that work the large muscle groups vice spending anytime on punching bag. Your better off spending time in SPEAR suits with someone overwhelming you with punches and kicks while you learn how to manage the fight while trying not to throw up.

If you are going to do conditioning for fights it is all about developing a strong anaerobic capacity. However, even then in real fights it is the guy who gets the jump who usually wins or the guy whose buddy shows up next that determines the winner.

Michael Hackett
12-03-2012, 11:45 PM
Kettlebell swings, just good old kettlebell swings.

Basia Halliop
12-04-2012, 10:47 AM
Nobody wants to be in a fight
I think this is pretty obviously untrue. For one thing, to be pedantic, if one person is trying to get away (i.e., doesn't want to be there), that's not normally called a 'fight', it's an attack, which isn't the same thing (and would require different strategies as well).

In any case, if nobody really wanted to be in a fight, there wouldn't be so many fights. This is especially true when people start talking about 'street fights' and 'bar fights', which seem to be pretty much entirely avoidable, and easily so, with very few exceptions.

Personally, I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out how to win a 'bar fight'. Don't go to places there are likely to be bar fights, don't stay in a place where there are people who seem 'off' in any way, and don't get in arguments with crazy people. Voila, problem solved.

Muggings and the like are a far more interesting problem.

Basia Halliop
12-04-2012, 12:29 PM
Don't go to places there are likely to be bar fights, don't stay in a place where there are people who seem 'off' in any way, and don't get in arguments with crazy people. Voila, problem solved.

Naturally the above doesn't apply if you're a bouncer or police officer; of course if you are you'll have different concerns and priorities than I do.

Krystal Locke
12-04-2012, 01:28 PM
I think this is pretty obviously untrue. For one thing, to be pedantic, if one person is trying to get away (i.e., doesn't want to be there), that's not normally called a 'fight', it's an attack, which isn't the same thing (and would require different strategies as well).

In any case, if nobody really wanted to be in a fight, there wouldn't be so many fights. This is especially true when people start talking about 'street fights' and 'bar fights', which seem to be pretty much entirely avoidable, and easily so, with very few exceptions.

Personally, I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out how to win a 'bar fight'. Don't go to places there are likely to be bar fights, don't stay in a place where there are people who seem 'off' in any way, and don't get in arguments with crazy people. Voila, problem solved.

Muggings and the like are a far more interesting problem.

This raises a good point that I have been thinking about a lot lately. I am a bouncer. I am NOT paid to fight. I would be fired if I fought with someone. I am paid to stop other people fighting and i am paid to stop people who are attacking other people. It can be a fine distinction, but it is often an important one. In my opinion, a fight is two people agreeing in the moment to try to injure each other for whatever dumbassed reason, mutual combat. An attack is one person trying to injure another person without the attackee's consent. Different scenarios, different responses from me.

I have found that there are often three phases in a fight. I call them fussin', fightin', and fuckin'. I have the best shot of surviving stopping that fight if I intervene in either the fussin' or the fuckin' phases. In fussin', folks are working out a contract to fight. If I interrupt that negotiation, I can remind them about jail, the shame of getting pwned by an old fat lady, the loss of the price of admission, etc. It can work. But if I am late or unsuccessful, they start fightin'. I dont want any part of that shit, flying fists, beer bottles, possible weapons, screw that. Time to call my coworkers over. Because after a few seconds of fists, they clinch and start rolling around on the ground fuckin'. Fun to watch, but now is the safe time to get these people out of the venue. They are way too interested in the other man on top of them to pay much attention to the crew coming up to choke, I mean Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint (That's Cop-ese for hadakajime which is Japanese for would you like to take a nap now thanks) them right out, cuff them, and haul them out of the building. That's why there are so many youtube videos about "Why dont the fat donut eating cop wannabe's DO something!?!?!?!?!!?" Both people want to duke it out, they wont be talked down, they haven't done anything actionable yet, oh wait now they have and I am NOT getting in the middle of those two dogs fornicating. Wait, wait, now. Find the safe place, let the technique develop. Good aikido.

I dont like dealing with attacks as much. Attacks are not mutual, unpredictable, and someone is getting screwed without their consent. Pisses me off, and I dont do good aikido when I am pissed off. Attacks usually call for more immediate action, I am usually alone of with one other person, and attackers are usually more motivated to do real harm than mutual combatants. They have a purpose, and it is bad. If someone is being attacked, I am scared, but I feel an ethical imperative to intervene as best as I can. Get backup now, get the victim out of there, incapacitate the attacker and get them into the hands of the police ASAP.

I dont fight. It is stupid. I am ocassionally attacked, only once seriously (the weapon's presence made the attack serious more than the wielder's intent), and I had the space to deal verbally with that one. The attacks require swift response. If the attack is serious and I have no space, my response will be complete survival. Fuck them, fuck ethics, fuck aikido, fuck their TAPOUT tshirt, fuck common courtesy, I'm going to bite their esophagus out.

"Your Honor, I was afraid for my life, I had no idea what my attacker wanted, knew, or was carrying. I was just afraid for my life. I responded out of pure fear."