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torres.aikido
11-28-2012, 08:01 AM
Hello,

I have read some articles regarding Aikido and a macrobiotic diet. I have incorporated some of the macrobiotic principles in my diet but I lift weights a few times a week and not sure if it gives me enough protein. What is everyones thoughts on this?

Thanks,

Tim

Tom Verhoeven
11-28-2012, 08:35 AM
Hello,

I have read some articles regarding Aikido and a macrobiotic diet. I have incorporated some of the macrobiotic principles in my diet but I lift weights a few times a week and not sure if it gives me enough protein. What is everyones thoughts on this?

Thanks,

Tim

Lots of miso-soup, tofu and beans I suppose.

However - I remember a story of how O Sensei scolded a student of his because he had taken up weightlifting in addition to his daily Aikido practice.

Is the weightlifting just for fun, for fitness or meant to improve your Aikido ?

All the best,

Tom

torres.aikido
11-28-2012, 09:35 AM
Hi Tom,

Good points. If I think about it I guess the weightlifting is for fitness and to improve my Aikido ... definately not for fun because I hate it!

Tim

Janet Rosen
11-28-2012, 10:19 AM
I'm curious how you think weightlifting will improve your aikido?

Tom Verhoeven
11-28-2012, 10:28 AM
Hi Tom,

Good points. If I think about it I guess the weightlifting is for fitness and to improve my Aikido ... definately not for fun because I hate it!

Tim

Hi Tim,

I did not forsee that answer; you do not even like weightlifting?

It will not improve your Aikido either - more likely it will work against any improvement at all.

As for fitness I would suggest - do more Aikido !

Tom

torres.aikido
11-28-2012, 10:29 AM
Hi Janet,

Good question ... my thought is that being in shape, a little stronger and healthy can't hurt. I'm not trying to get huge like a bodybuilder just athletic.

Tim

Krystal Locke
11-28-2012, 10:50 AM
Lots of miso-soup, tofu and beans I suppose.

However - I remember a story of how O Sensei scolded a student of his because he had taken up weightlifting in addition to his daily Aikido practice.

Is the weightlifting just for fun, for fitness or meant to improve your Aikido ?

All the best,

Tom

If the foundation of a macrobiotic diet is eating unprocessed local foods in season, why the emphasis on highly processed and not local miso and tofu, and minimally processed but usually dried and stored for months if not years beans? Go look outside. What is at hand? Eat that.

The same Osensei who bitched about weight training had a saltwater drinking contest that he blamed for the liver disease which killed him. I wish folks would not see Osensei as the gold standard for everything. He was a flawed human who did some things very well and other things not so well, who learned and grew and made huge mistakes, and who deserves respect and appreciation, but not blind adulation.

phitruong
11-28-2012, 10:51 AM
Hi Janet,

Good question ... my thought is that being in shape, a little stronger and healthy can't hurt. I'm not trying to get huge like a bodybuilder just athletic.

Tim

try aerobic or kick boxing aerobic. there is nothing like being a room full of women in leotard that move like energize bunny to get your butt in gear. :)

phitruong
11-28-2012, 10:54 AM
Go look outside. What is at hand? Eat that.

.

Tim by his location code is in orlando, fl. there would only be tourists outside. they don't taste very good, high on cholesterol, and bitchy as best. :D

Krystal Locke
11-28-2012, 11:01 AM
I lift weights to supplement my aikido. I find the exercise very helpful. My legs are chronically weak due to severe arthritis in my knees. I can control my weight lifting form to strengthen the leg muscles that protect my knees, and to strengthen my upper body, upon which I have transferred some of the load of just getting up off the mat. I also work my upper body with weights to maintain strength in the shoulder I dislocated.

I also just like being stronger. I like being the girl that the guys ask to open the jar. I enjoy the ability to pick up a bucket of compost and take it out to the front raised beds. I like having the choice of grabbing the new guy's wrist with just enough force that he has to think and feel and look for just a moment to find the easy place or putting enough of a clamp on a godan's wrist that they have something to work with and think and feel and look for just a moment to find the easy place.

Stabilizing my core with weight training has really helped me with balance and groundedness. And gf digs my deltoids and triceps, when I have them.

Tom Verhoeven
11-28-2012, 11:58 AM
If the foundation of a macrobiotic diet is eating unprocessed local foods in season, why the emphasis on highly processed and not local miso and tofu, and minimally processed but usually dried and stored for months if not years beans? Go look outside. What is at hand? Eat that.


Is this meant as a counter-argument for what I said or as a statement against macrobiotics as a whole?

Eat what is available and grown in your own area is a macrobiotic priciple. So what is your point?

The same Osensei who bitched about weight training had a saltwater drinking contest that he blamed for the liver disease which killed him. I wish folks would not see Osensei as the gold standard for everything. He was a flawed human who did some things very well and other things not so well, who learned and grew and made huge mistakes, and who deserves respect and appreciation, but not blind adulation.

The man died at the respectable age of 86. At such an age it is not uncommon for someone to have a decease like cancer. There is an anecdote where he himself states that it was from a saltwater drinking contest. It is however not from a doctor or from medical tests. In fact - drinking salt water is not considered as a common cause of cancer (although it cann't be very healthy either).

The point of the story about O Sensei and his student who started one day lifting weights, is that O Sensei did not know that his student started doing this. It was when the student returned to the dojo that O Sensei sensed something had changed in the students body, in the way his student felt as he threw him. It was then that he told his student to stop whatever it was that he was doing.

This concurs with my own experiences - students that combine Aikido are slower, even weaker in a sense,

I do not know who these folks are that you are referring to who blindly adulate him (people in your own dojo?), personally I am all too aware that all humans are flawed, even if they happen to be a genius as O Sensei. But for the things that he showed and taught he deserves our gratitude, respect and appreciation.

Tom

ps. by the way, English is not my native language - perhaps you could give a description of what you mean by the word "bitched" ?

torres.aikido
11-28-2012, 12:39 PM
I appreciate everyones comments and insight. I'm still tinkering around with my personal fitness regimen. At lunch 11:30 - 1:00 I either lift weights or play basketball in conjuction with my Aikido training in the evening. Same tinkering I'm doing with my diet - used to eat a lot of meat and a ton of milk. Now i'm trying less meat more brown rice, beans and vegetables - need to add in some Miso soup.

Thanks again for all your comments.

Tim

sakumeikan
11-28-2012, 01:24 PM
I lift weights to supplement my aikido. I find the exercise very helpful. My legs are chronically weak due to severe arthritis in my knees. I can control my weight lifting form to strengthen the leg muscles that protect my knees, and to strengthen my upper body, upon which I have transferred some of the load of just getting up off the mat. I also work my upper body with weights to maintain strength in the shoulder I dislocated.

I also just like being stronger. I like being the girl that the guys ask to open the jar. I enjoy the ability to pick up a bucket of compost and take it out to the front raised beds. I like having the choice of grabbing the new guy's wrist with just enough force that he has to think and feel and look for just a moment to find the easy place or putting enough of a clamp on a godan's wrist that they have something to work with and think and feel and look for just a moment to find the easy place.

Stabilizing my core with weight training has really helped me with balance and groundedness. And gf digs my deltoids and triceps, when I have them.

Hi Krystal,
Fancy a part time job as a bouncer??? Joe.

lbb
11-28-2012, 01:50 PM
What's wrong with strength training? I think it's great. Like most forms of fitness, it can be (and usually is) done badly, or it can be done well and in ways that help you, as long as you know what you're trying to accomplish. If you don't know where you're going, any road will do; if you don't know where you are, a map won't help.

Krystal Locke
11-28-2012, 03:03 PM
Hi Krystal,
Fancy a part time job as a bouncer??? Joe.

Sorry, I signed a non-competition agreement with the security company I work part time for.... :rolleyes: I love the work, but hate the person it turns me into.

ryback
11-28-2012, 03:18 PM
In my opinion you cannot "help" your aikido by weight-lifting.This kind of exercice come in contrast with aikido's principles and instead of soft agile and quick upper body you'll end up with stiff shoulders and arms.The power of aikido is kokyu and tai sabaki,so forget about weights.Nutrition on the other hand is very important i keep it strict myself.Lots of vegetables,rice,sushi,miso soup and absolutely no meat!!You seem to have that part in the right path,so practice on the tatami,keep your diet like that and forget the weights...

dps
11-28-2012, 03:29 PM
Lifting weights for strength is good for you. Use Aikido practice to maintain flexibility.

Krystal Locke
11-28-2012, 03:40 PM
In my opinion you cannot "help" your aikido by weight-lifting.This kind of exercice come in contrast with aikido's principles and instead of soft agile and quick upper body you'll end up with stiff shoulders and arms.The power of aikido is kokyu and tai sabaki,so forget about weights.Nutrition on the other hand is very important i keep it strict myself.Lots of vegetables,rice,sushi,miso soup and absolutely no meat!!You seem to have that part in the right path,so practice on the tatami,keep your diet like that and forget the weights...

Which principles? "Train in the spirit of joy"? "Aikido is love"? Can a strengthened muscle not relax and work efficiently? How much muscular development is too much? Is it good that I can bench press 125lbs just because that is how strong by body is without training in lifting, but bad if I practice and can press 130 next week?

What, exactly, is kokyu, and why does nutrition affect it positively but strength training doesn't? What about having a 600 pound leg press (well, I used to....) is stopping me from using that same leg to step out of the way of a punch?

What is optimal, and why is it optimal, and is that optimization universal or a rather individual matter?

Chris Li
11-28-2012, 05:10 PM
Which principles? "Train in the spirit of joy"? "Aikido is love"? Can a strengthened muscle not relax and work efficiently? How much muscular development is too much? Is it good that I can bench press 125lbs just because that is how strong by body is without training in lifting, but bad if I practice and can press 130 next week?

What, exactly, is kokyu, and why does nutrition affect it positively but strength training doesn't? What about having a 600 pound leg press (well, I used to....) is stopping me from using that same leg to step out of the way of a punch?

What is optimal, and why is it optimal, and is that optimization universal or a rather individual matter?

Well, it's a no brainer that conditioning that's good for one sport or type of sport is no good for another one - that's why marathon runners don't often look like powerlifters.

The problem with lifitng, if you're trying to do something Internal (let's assume that includes Aikido, for the sake of argument) is that it tends to condition the muscles to behave in the wrong ways for what you're trying to do. Not that it can't be done, if you're careful, but it's tricky enough that I wouldn't recommend it for anyone who's really interested in Internal work.

If you're interested in yank and crank - then it should work fine :D .

Best,

Chris

miso
11-28-2012, 05:27 PM
O-sensei looked like a pit-bull when he was younger (that is under 60), he must have worked out.

Chris Li
11-28-2012, 06:57 PM
O-sensei looked like a pit-bull when he was younger (that is under 60), he must have worked out.

Sure, there's nothing wrong with it - it's just tricky to work with the internal stuff. Perhaps I should have said "it's tricky enough that I wouldn't recommend it for anyone who's really interested in Internal work" until they get to a certain point in their training.

Best,

Chris

Cady Goldfield
11-28-2012, 07:08 PM
Tim,
I'd suggest going easy on the miso. It's extremely high in sodium, so longterm, frequent consumption, especially if you're eating other high-sodium foods, could be problematic -- high blood pressure.

lbb
11-29-2012, 08:04 AM
It sounds to me like most of you are using the term "lifting" sort of like talking about "vehicles", and then trying to validate/invalidate sweeping statements like "vehicles can't go more than 20 mph" "vehicles aren't good for traveling over water", etc.

torres.aikido
11-29-2012, 08:19 AM
My only hesitation with my lifting weights is that I'm fairly unflexible to begin with so I want to improve that ... I know lifting weights doesnt help.

Tom Verhoeven
11-29-2012, 08:25 AM
O-sensei looked like a pit-bull when he was younger (that is under 60), he must have worked out.

Was powerlifting very popular in Japan before the war ?

Tom

Cady Goldfield
11-29-2012, 08:58 AM
Here is a link to the Asian Powerlifting Federation, http://asianpowerliftingfederation.org/
which states that the sport dates back to 1950 (the APF itself was founded in 1984).

The first Hall of Fame inductee to the APF was a Japanese powerlifter, who started pulling championships since the early or mid 1980s and for 18 almost successive years hence.. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvN4_x1kMeQ

Krystal Locke
11-29-2012, 09:40 AM
Why do we train with suburito and is it also a mistake?

Chris Li
11-29-2012, 09:45 AM
Why do we train with suburito and is it also a mistake?

All depends on what you're trying to train and why. Yes, for certain things, no, for others.

Best,

Chris

phitruong
11-29-2012, 09:46 AM
Was powerlifting very popular in Japan before the war ?

Tom

nope. but hauling sacks of rice and dirt and plowing the fields were quite popular. i did mention somewhere that we farm boys are deceptively strong.

phitruong
11-29-2012, 09:50 AM
Why do we train with suburito and is it also a mistake?

it's for the conan kenjutsu ryu. that particular style also goes well with a superburrito. :)

Cliff Judge
11-29-2012, 10:21 AM
It sounds to me like most of you are using the term "lifting" sort of like talking about "vehicles", and then trying to validate/invalidate sweeping statements like "vehicles can't go more than 20 mph" "vehicles aren't good for traveling over water", etc.

I agree. There is a typical weight training program that involves high-weight / low-rep exercises and a diet high in protein that is the kind of thing you get on if you are sub-athletic and want to shape up, or as the beginning part of a larger PT cycle if you are an athlete.

The good points of high-weight, low-rep, high-protein is that it is actually kind of easy to do. You can quickly find the appropriate weight to lift, and you don't do many reps, so it is a short amount of time spent in the gym. You rip the crap out of your muscles, and then they use the protein you flood your system with to rebuild, so you bulk up and your metabolism starts running more efficiently.

The bad points are that your muscles are stiff and sore all of the time. They don't relax as easily. This is bad for just about any type of athletic activity other than powerlifting. Even bodybuilders only spend part of their training cycles doing this kind of regimen.

There are plenty of other types of resistance training though. You can do lower-weight / higher-rep exercises. You can work with kettleballs or indian clubs and do complex, circular exercises that are allegedly good for joint strength and flexibility. You could even do a high-weight / low rep program for three months or so and then transition to something that involves more stretching and lighter weight.

Tom Verhoeven
11-29-2012, 05:41 PM
nope. but hauling sacks of rice and dirt and plowing the fields were quite popular. i did mention somewhere that we farm boys are deceptively strong.

That is not the same though. That kind of work would continue for hours even all day. And that day after day. Different way of developing muscles, I would think.

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
11-29-2012, 05:45 PM
Here is a link to the Asian Powerlifting Federation, http://asianpowerliftingfederation.org/
which states that the sport dates back to 1950 (the APF itself was founded in 1984).

The first Hall of Fame inductee to the APF was a Japanese powerlifter, who started pulling championships since the early or mid 1980s and for 18 almost successive years hence.. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvN4_x1kMeQ

Thanks for the link.
It fits with what I had heard - lifting weights became popular after the war. American influence perhaps. So O Sensei did not get his muscular body from lifting weights. It also fits with the story I heard about his powerlifting student. It happened in the early sixties.

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
11-29-2012, 05:52 PM
I agree. There is a typical weight training program that involves high-weight / low-rep exercises and a diet high in protein that is the kind of thing you get on if you are sub-athletic and want to shape up, or as the beginning part of a larger PT cycle if you are an athlete.

The good points of high-weight, low-rep, high-protein is that it is actually kind of easy to do. You can quickly find the appropriate weight to lift, and you don't do many reps, so it is a short amount of time spent in the gym. You rip the crap out of your muscles, and then they use the protein you flood your system with to rebuild, so you bulk up and your metabolism starts running more efficiently.

The bad points are that your muscles are stiff and sore all of the time. They don't relax as easily. This is bad for just about any type of athletic activity other than powerlifting. Even bodybuilders only spend part of their training cycles doing this kind of regimen.

There are plenty of other types of resistance training though. You can do lower-weight / higher-rep exercises. You can work with kettleballs or indian clubs and do complex, circular exercises that are allegedly good for joint strength and flexibility. You could even do a high-weight / low rep program for three months or so and then transition to something that involves more stretching and lighter weight.

I used to teach Aikido to professional dancers. In classical ballet the men do some weight lifting mostly to strengthen their arms, it should make lifting the ballerina easier. But just as you already explained - they combine it with a lot of stretching and light movements.

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
11-29-2012, 05:54 PM
By the way - is a macrobiotic diet still popular among practioners of Aikido?

Tom

Chris Li
11-29-2012, 06:07 PM
Thanks for the link.
It fits with what I had heard - lifting weights became popular after the war. American influence perhaps. So O Sensei did not get his muscular body from lifting weights. It also fits with the story I heard about his powerlifting student. It happened in the early sixties.

Tom

Looking around, I found that the first All Japan Weightlifting competition was held in 1936, and the first all Japan Weightlifting Association was formed at that time - so weightlifting must have been around for some time prior to that if it had already spread around the country.

Plus, there are plenty of similar resistance style exercises that would produce similar results, even if not in western fornat.

As an aside, I seem to remember Yukiyoshi Sagawa, who was a contemporary of Ueshiba, as being a big weight lifter at one point in his life.

Best,

Chris

Cady Goldfield
11-30-2012, 12:28 AM
That is not the same though. That kind of work would continue for hours even all day. And that day after day. Different way of developing muscles, I would think.

Tom

There is a lot of lifting in farm work, though, and lifting is lifting. I garden for a living and am constantly lifting and hauling large sacks of fertilizer, barrels of compost, large shrubs and heavy equipment, loading and unloading the truck, pitching forksful of bark mulch into wheelbarrows, and other such work. I am quite muscular as a result. I also do a lot of tree/shrub pruning with saws that work on the pull stroke, and with bypass pruners that develop a vise-like grip. And, I split and toss firewood, which is a great workout!

Interestingly, I try to minimize the use of muscle in my work, relying a lot on frame and structure to do the real heavy lifting. Conventional muscle plays a role in the initial lift, but when I'm carrying heavy items, it's my frame that is bearing the load, not muscle, which is why I can work long days without tiring, even though I am in my mid-50s.

If I correctly recall some of Ueshiba's history, didn't he do some heavy-duty farming, perhaps even intentionally to add to his physical strength?

Tom Verhoeven
11-30-2012, 07:32 AM
There is a lot of lifting in farm work, though, and lifting is lifting. I garden for a living and am constantly lifting and hauling large sacks of fertilizer, barrels of compost, large shrubs and heavy equipment, loading and unloading the truck, pitching forksful of bark mulch into wheelbarrows, and other such work. I am quite muscular as a result. I also do a lot of tree/shrub pruning with saws that work on the pull stroke, and with bypass pruners that develop a vise-like grip. And, I split and toss firewood, which is a great workout!

Interestingly, I try to minimize the use of muscle in my work, relying a lot on frame and structure to do the real heavy lifting. Conventional muscle plays a role in the initial lift, but when I'm carrying heavy items, it's my frame that is bearing the load, not muscle, which is why I can work long days without tiring, even though I am in my mid-50s.

If I correctly recall some of Ueshiba's history, didn't he do some heavy-duty farming, perhaps even intentionally to add to his physical strength?

Same kind of work as I do. Same age.
I try to minimize the use of muscle as well. Learned many different ways from my father about moving heavy objects without using muscle. Use a lot of what I have learned in Aikido and T'ai chi chuan to move things (or animals) without using muscle.

I imagine that O Sensei got quite muscular through his farming and his Budo training, and he may have even discovered or recognized some of these kind of ways of not using muscles by working on the land.

I do not see however how one could learn these things by just lifting weights - it seems like a rather one-sided training regime in contrast to the many different ways muscles are being used in farming..

On the other hand, I can see how some weight lifting exercises could help to overcome certain physical problems.

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
11-30-2012, 07:33 AM
Looking around, I found that the first All Japan Weightlifting competition was held in 1936, and the first all Japan Weightlifting Association was formed at that time - so weightlifting must have been around for some time prior to that if it had already spread around the country.

Plus, there are plenty of similar resistance style exercises that would produce similar results, even if not in western fornat.

As an aside, I seem to remember Yukiyoshi Sagawa, who was a contemporary of Ueshiba, as being a big weight lifter at one point in his life.

Best,

Chris

Did the weightlifting have a important influence on his internal skills?

Tom

Cady Goldfield
11-30-2012, 07:46 AM
I do not see however how one could learn these things by just lifting weights - it seems like a rather one-sided training regime in contrast to the many different ways muscles are being used in farming..

On the other hand, I can see how some weight lifting exercises could help to overcome certain physical problems.

Tom

I agree... if one just lifts weights, one learns only how to lift weights. When we're doing physical labor of the different kinds described earlier, there are other factors involved, including changes in the terrain, shifting of weight/mass in the loads being carried, etc. We develop the proprioception needed to make the necessary changes in our bodies to accommodate the changes in the environment around us and in the nature of the different work we are doing.

Weight lifting has the specific purpose of building muscular strength and bulk, and increasing bone density. It's not a secret that even very elderly people can benefit significantly from an appropriate level of weight training.

Tom Verhoeven
11-30-2012, 07:50 AM
I agree... if one just lifts weights, one learns only how to lift weights. When we're doing physical labor of the different kinds described earlier, there are other factors involved, including changes in the terrain, shifting of weight/mass in the loads being carried, etc. We develop the proprioception needed to make the necessary changes in our bodies to accommodate the changes in the environment around us and in the nature of the different work we are doing.

Weight lifting has the specific purpose of building muscular strength and bulk, and increasing bone density. It's not a secret that even very elderly people can benefit significantly from an appropriate level of weight training.

I agree, no contradiction there.

Tom

Cady Goldfield
11-30-2012, 08:00 AM
Did the weightlifting have a important influence on his internal skills?

Tom

Weight lifting had absolutely nothing to do with his internal skills.

Chris Li
11-30-2012, 09:18 AM
Did the weightlifting have a important influence on his internal skills?

Tom

You don't say if you meant Ueshiba or Sagawa - but I'd say no in both cases.

Best,

Chris

phitruong
11-30-2012, 09:41 AM
macro = big, large
biotic = life forms

would cow and pig considered as macrobiotic, since they are large life form? plus, cow is known to be a vegetarian life form. would eating beef, T-bone or ribeye, consider as macrobiotic vegetarian diet? :D

lbb
11-30-2012, 10:24 AM
I agree... if one just lifts weights, one learns only how to lift weights. When we're doing physical labor of the different kinds described earlier, there are other factors involved, including changes in the terrain, shifting of weight/mass in the loads being carried, etc. We develop the proprioception needed to make the necessary changes in our bodies to accommodate the changes in the environment around us and in the nature of the different work we are doing.

Except that "lifting weights" doesn't just mean what you think it means. You might be surprised if you were to look at the breadth of what is strength training today, rather than superficial impressions of it. You seem to believe that all "lifting weights" takes place in racks that limit the range of motion and isolate the work to one individual muscle group. That's just not so. Many strength training regimens are specifically designed around a goal of functional strength, not bulking up isolated muscle groups.

Weight lifting has the specific purpose of building muscular strength and bulk, and increasing bone density. It's not a secret that even very elderly people can benefit significantly from an appropriate level of weight training.

Vehicles have the specific purpose of traveling over paved roads, typically at speeds between 35 and 70 mph. They are not suited at slower or faster speeds, off roads, over water or through the air.

Chris Li
11-30-2012, 10:52 AM
Except that "lifting weights" doesn't just mean what you think it means. You might be surprised if you were to look at the breadth of what is strength training today, rather than superficial impressions of it. You seem to believe that all "lifting weights" takes place in racks that limit the range of motion and isolate the work to one individual muscle group. That's just not so. Many strength training regimens are specifically designed around a goal of functional strength, not bulking up isolated muscle groups.


Sure, but you notice that the OP began with a very general statement - thus the general replies. Are there strength training regimens that are good for IP? Sure - but generally speaking, what most people do when they talk about weight lifting aren't it.

Best,

Chris

Krystal Locke
11-30-2012, 11:04 AM
But the OP and the thread in general isn't about IP. It is about macrobiotics and to a lesser extent, weightlifting in aikido. Right now, right or not, IP and aikido are separate entities. And again, someone drops an Osensei anecdote taken out of time, place and context as an indictment of a training method.

Cady Goldfield
11-30-2012, 11:16 AM
Hello,

I have read some articles regarding Aikido and a macrobiotic diet. I have incorporated some of the macrobiotic principles in my diet but I lift weights a few times a week and not sure if it gives me enough protein. What is everyones thoughts on this?

Thanks,

Tim

If you're incorporating some macrobiotic principles in your diet, and lifting weights, and you're building muscle mass and strength and maintaining endurance and overall wellbeing, then my guess is that you're getting enough protein.

If you go on a strict macrobiotic diet, and find that you have trouble keeping on muscle mass and have less endurance, then maybe you'd want to review your protein (and other nutrient) intake.

Chris Li
11-30-2012, 11:16 AM
But the OP and the thread in general isn't about IP. It is about macrobiotics and to a lesser extent, weightlifting in aikido. Right now, right or not, IP and aikido are separate entities. And again, someone drops an Osensei anecdote taken out of time, place and context as an indictment of a training method.

"IP and Aikido are separate entities" according to some, but not according to others. In any case, there has already been a fair amount of ddiscussion in this thread about weight lifting and IP - I'm continuing in that vein.

Best,

Chris

Cady Goldfield
11-30-2012, 11:20 AM
What Chris said. How can one separate IP (and aiki) from aikido, when it was part and parcel to M. Ueshiba's own practice? Maybe that's why Jun lets the topic be discussed outside the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum nowadays. :)

lbb
12-01-2012, 02:48 PM
I think that some of you clearly have some very old-fashioned notions that frankly sound like a '70s popular culture notion of "weight lifting". I don't think it's valid to assert that this antiquated Arnold Schwartzenegger stereotype is "generally" what "weight lifting" is about.

Chris Li
12-01-2012, 02:59 PM
I think that some of you clearly have some very old-fashioned notions that frankly sound like a '70s popular culture notion of "weight lifting". I don't think it's valid to assert that this antiquated Arnold Schwartzenegger stereotype is "generally" what "weight lifting" is about.

Who's talking about an "antiquated Arnold Schwartzenegger stereotype"? So far as I noticed - I never mentioned any specific types of weight lifting at all. In any case, what I'm talking about is what you'll see virtually everybody doing when you walk into the local gym. You may be doing something different, and that's fine.

Best,

Chris

Cady Goldfield
12-01-2012, 07:21 PM
Mary,
I was comparing work-related lifting and movement, to just lifting weights... the general, conventional sense of weightlifting in a sport environment, on a flat, even surface, as opposed to walking, climbing and otherwise moving across varying terrain while bearing loads. The former requires many gross- and fine adjustments to adapt to the changes in the ground surface, topography, load shifting, etc.

The horticultural/gardening work I do isn't "weight lifting," either, but it builds strength and bone density as a result of a lot of low-impact load bearing. I also try to incorporate. as best I can, support and movement that is different from conventional body movement and use, in nearly everything I do, including load-bearing and tasks that ordinarily would employ upper-body and arm muscles, such as pruning with pull-cut saws, cutting with machetes and hatchets, and shoveling/pitchforking mulch and compost. It's not muscular strength that allows me to perform this work for hours on end without exhaustion, but the ability employ other processes that support each other and make movement more efficient and less reliant on muscle power.

It would be really fascinating to know how Morihei Ueshiba was using his body, when he returned to doing farm work.

Cady Goldfield
12-02-2012, 10:19 AM
EDIT:
I was comparing work-related lifting and movement, to just lifting weights... the general, conventional sense of weightlifting in a sport environment, on a flat, even surface, as opposed to walking, climbing and otherwise moving across varying terrain while bearing loads. The work-related action, as in landscaping, gardening and farming labor, requires many gross- and fine adjustments to adapt to the changes in the ground surface, topography, load shifting, etc.