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davoravo
07-16-2002, 05:51 AM
I was doing kote-gaeshi on a beginner the other day and we ended up staring at each other in a bemused fashion. It struck me that uke throws himself for this technique.

My point is that against someone who doesn't do aikido this technique is a wrist break and not a throw. I'm so used to "pulling" my kote-gaeshi for uke that I think I would lack the killing spirit to finish the technique.

I'm not averse to harming an assailant, but I worry that with this technique I wouldn't. Nikkyo and Sankyo I'm used to cranking on so I'm happy I could finish with them.

What sayest thou?

ChristianBoddum
07-16-2002, 06:20 AM
Hi !
One of my sempais made me aware that breaking
the wrist is both wrong ,hurtful and damaging,
when you are ready to apply the kote gaeshi and do tenkan let the pressure point towards and into your uke instead of turning your
bodypower into his wrist,major difference in a small way.
have a nice day.
Yours - Chr.B.

Jason Tonks
07-16-2002, 06:36 AM
The problem you have here is that the beginner you are training with cannot take Ukemi yet. While training with a a beginner you are only running slowly through the technique to get the movement right. You can apply the technique with power and speed on higher grades who can Ukemi at a high level of skill. The reason it seems as though Uke is throwing him/herself is that Ukemi is our way of avoiding injury. On the street the person just goes straight into the ground. All this is, is a case of adjusting your technique to the level of your Uke.

Jason

davoravo
07-16-2002, 06:45 AM
Jason,
this is exactly my point - ukemi is our way of avoiding injury. My sensei strongly encourages us to practice with beginners because this is as close to real people as we can get. The beginner doesn't fall becasue they don't know how to take ukemi and neither will joe on the street. to make the technique work I think you need to break or at least sprain the wrist. I feel that when push comes to twist I won't put on enough pressure.

Chris,
I assume you guys do the type of kote-gaeshi where uke runs his own feet from under himself so that youur kote-gaeshi can be done almost as an elbow turn. What happens with beginners?

ChristianBoddum
07-16-2002, 06:53 AM
Hi Dave !
They usually follow nicely to the ground
to a foot under their shoulder,and me explaining you have one one hand free to call someone from your cellphone !
Damn it's hot today !
Yours - Chr.B.

Jason Tonks
07-16-2002, 08:03 AM
Dave, your Sensei is absolutely right. It is always good to practice with beginners. The thing is not to doubt yourself or your technique. When we train with beginners at our dojo we get them initially doing backward Ukemi in their own time as we run slowly through the technique. As they gain more confidence they start to forward Ukemi from techniques. Just because a beginner is standing there doesn't mean Aikido doesn't work. If you are practicing with beginners from static, remember its a different scenario from moving. Aikido comes alive from movement. Beginners often think " what happens if" or "but I would do that". If people just carry on training our questions get answered.

Jason.

Brian H
07-16-2002, 08:29 AM
I generally do kote-gaeshi one of two ways:

1) low and slow (chest level or lower). This forces uke to take good ukemi, even a break fall. The danger is that you can snap the wrist OR if uke extends his/her arm and rotates their palm down then they can immiately reverse into irimi nage. Slow is for safety.

2) The second way is to aim uke's hand right at his/her face while throwing. It is very difficult to reverse and much easier for a beginer to handle (also in a pinch - ready made atemi) The only real down side is that uke can't really breakfall (Oh darn)

Tim Griffiths
07-16-2002, 08:35 AM
Brian just beat me to it, so I'll just say:

Basically, you can do kotegeishi to injure,
or kotegeishi to put someone down gently.
Almost all techniques have these options,
and we should know both to take advantage
of the choice aikido gives us.

Tim

AikiAlf
07-16-2002, 11:36 AM
Dave, kotegaeshi should happen to an off-balance uke; if coming out of tenkan uke should not be regaining balance completely or as you point out it's hard to get them moving. Learning a new technique is a process of discovery; you go through the motions until you start getting a feel for whats happening. A place to start looking is balance. How is your balance when you apply the tecnhinque, how is uke's balance? kotegaeshi controls the forearm, you should be locking the wrist down, not twisting; yes you can break the wrist that way but its also easier to counter that twist. Lock the wrist down and turn with your hips.
and keep on training and you'll understand it better and it won't seem so "pointless" anymore.

Greg Jennings
07-16-2002, 12:32 PM
What sayest thou?

Wrote this earlier, don't know why it didn't "take".

If one has to use pain compliance/threat of joint damage to get an uke down with any technique, the problem, in my experience, is that uke's balance isn't taken.

This occurs because one doesn't have it to begin with or had it and gave it back to them.

If uke is unbalanced, then any force applied to their center through a good connection will result in them going down. If uke has his balance, it becomes a "game of chicken".

Best Regards,

opherdonchin
07-16-2002, 04:02 PM
I don't know if I made this up or if someone said it to me, but I've been liking it for a long time:

If uke isn't falling already, it's very difficult to MAKE them fall; if uke is falling already, it is not necessary to MAKE them fall and all you need to do is not get in their way.

Erik
07-16-2002, 06:42 PM
I was doing kote-gaeshi on a beginner the other day and we ended up staring at each other in a bemused fashion. It struck me that uke throws himself for this technique.

My point is that against someone who doesn't do aikido this technique is a wrist break and not a throw. I'm so used to "pulling" my kote-gaeshi for uke that I think I would lack the killing spirit to finish the technique.

I'm not averse to harming an assailant, but I worry that with this technique I wouldn't. Nikkyo and Sankyo I'm used to cranking on so I'm happy I could finish with them.

What sayest thou?

I sayest unto thee, that thou oratory hast left mineself confused and sorely vexed for thee hath spoken words of strangeness. You sayeth that you cranketh yon nikyo's and sankyo's but say nay to that spirit when engaged with kote gaeshi for thee see's demon's in it's execution?

Nay, I say, it maketh no sense for cranking nikyo and sankyo brings great displeasure and yelps unto thy partners. Yipes, too! How then dost thee reconcile one man's pain for anothers? Is one pain more worthy than another? What dost they put in the water in yon far away land? Dost there remain in thy first aid kit aspirin?

Yea and verily I say there are utmost ways one may turn another's wrist. Alas, I know not how to write them in this strange language and so I may not share them with thee in the here and now.

Instead, I leave thee with this guidance, which hath already been given but not in this speech, taketh thy partners center for thine own, then thy practice will speedily lead unto thy desired result.

MaylandL
07-16-2002, 08:52 PM
...
If one has to use pain compliance/threat of joint damage to get an uke down with any technique, the problem, in my experience, is that uke's balance isn't taken.

...

If uke is unbalanced, then any force applied to their center through a good connection will result in them going down. If uke has his balance, it becomes a "game of chicken".

Best Regards,

Yes absolutely. We are taught at the dojos that I train at to take balance and to keep uke off balance during the tenkan movements. In that way, it does become a wrestling match when the throw if done.

BTW Eric, great post :D

Greg Jennings
07-16-2002, 10:14 PM
If uke isn't falling already, it's very difficult to MAKE them fall; if uke is falling already, it is not necessary to MAKE them fall and all you need to do is not get in their way.
I think I know where the author is coming from and agree with the spirit but I don't completely agree with the verbatim words.

All this is highly personal to my way of looking at aikido, so take it for what it's worth:

When I was in a graduate control systems program, one thing we studied was bipedal motion.

The crux of the issue was that we learned that standing bipeds are essentially always falling.

When a biped is standing still on both legs, it can be considered that it is standing on, and tipping over off of, one leg but kept from falling by the other.

Walking can be considered controlled falling.

All this is made possible by this really wonderful walk-by-wire control system called the human nervous system.

Fast forwarding to the end result:

Nage can initially off-balance uke, but, if if we stop there, uke can often (not always) move to regain his balance.

Nage's job is to do something that keeps uke from having any (or maybe any practical) possibility of regaining his balance.

Enough for now. I don't want to hijack someone's thread.

Best Regards,

Alan Roberts
07-16-2002, 10:22 PM
Kotegaeshi works fine on beginners without resorting to speed or muscular effort, although speed is an important element of applying the technique "on the street." (And kotegaeshi does work outside of the dojo I can assure you.)

The problem you are having is perhaps one of technique and is certainly one of emphasis. Shutting someone's wrist in a car door may well break it but is unlikely to throw the person down, although they may well collapse. Likewise if you are concentrating on twisting the wrist in kotegaeshi and not on throwing all of your partner you may well get very little result.

Connect to all of your partner through the wrist, elbow and shoulder and take them off their feet. Your partner does not need to be so much off-balance as appropriately set up for kotegaeshi. Keep the wrist low, around navel level and certainly no higher than the base of your sternum.

With the idea of connecting to your partner and not twisting wrists think about your nikkyo and sankyo again, there may be room for improvement.

Have fun!

shihonage
07-17-2002, 01:41 AM
Aikido Jesus speech
Hahahahahahahahahahahaahhaha!

:eek: :freaky: ;) :p :) :D :) :eek: :D

davoravo
07-17-2002, 02:10 AM
Erik

When in the course of human events it becomes neccessary for one person to connect with another's centre and assume the powers of the earth a decent respect for uke requires that they impel them into the ground

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all pains are not created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights and lefts and upper cuts. That to secure uke it is neccessary to derive one' power from one's centre. That when any Form becomes destructive it is the right of nage to change it. Prudence dictates that harmony once established should not be changed for light and transient causes and accordingly all experience hath shown that uke is disposed to suffer.

I don't mind inflicting controlled pain, actually I kinda enjoy it. I was just concerned with inflicting permanent damage. No that is not correct. I was concerned with my unwillingness to inflict permanent harm based on the amount of energy I expend at training in protecting uke. I'm over it now.

jimvance
07-17-2002, 10:19 AM
I was doing kote-gaeshi on a beginner the other day and we ended up staring at each other in a bemused fashion. It struck me that uke throws himself for this technique.I would like to take this one step farther and say that in ALL nage-waza, uke throws himself. As said before on this site and others, ukemi is not a choice, it is a demonstration of GRAVITY.

Jim Vance

akiy
07-17-2002, 10:29 AM
I would like to take this one step farther and say that in ALL nage-waza, uke throws himself.
Yup -- I don't think there's anything wrong with uke throwing him/herself.

I remember just a couple of weeks ago, I was walking up a flight of stairs at work. I "spaced out" on my last step up to the landing and caught my toe on the step and nearly face planted myself. I can also recall many times when a patch of ice on the ground nearly swept my feet from right under me.

Neither the step nor the patch of ice did "anything" to me, but I managed to nearly have to take ukemi. Yup -- in these cases, I threw myself. I don't think there's anything preventing the same sort of thing happening during an aikido technique, either.

(Of course, I'm sorry to say that I'm nowhere as good as that last step nor that patch of ice. Some day, perhaps...)

-- Jun

Chuck Clark
07-17-2002, 11:44 AM
Jun,

Keep working on it... BE THE STEP...BEEE THE ICE...Practice, Practice. Tap into the special "Ki of the Stairway", etc. The kami of the ice will lead you to slipperyness!

But then again, good posture, movement, distance and timing can add up to pretty good kuzushi too.

Couldn't pass it up!

Take care,

Erik
07-17-2002, 12:50 PM
Snipped!
Very nice!
I don't mind inflicting controlled pain, actually I kinda enjoy it. I was just concerned with inflicting permanent damage. No that is not correct. I was concerned with my unwillingness to inflict permanent harm based on the amount of energy I expend at training in protecting uke. I'm over it now.
Cool! This isn't exactly the same thing but I spent the first 2 years on the mat with everyone telling me to use less strength, force, power, whatever. I was in fairly good shape then so I probably was a load to deal with and I'm sure I inflicted more than my share of unintentional pain. One day a 6th dan gets invited to teach and he asks me to throw him. I do, and he chews me out. He tells me to throw him. This went on a couple more times with me thinking I was throwing him. The chewing out part kept happening too. Finally I got it, it was ok to THROW him. He'd surely taken more powerful throws than I'd even imagined giving but I was so ingrained into a certain style of practice that THROWING him was not in my imagined repetoire.

It was such a relief that I nearly cried. I spent all this time under good intentions and they were right, but it's also true that in some ways I was being neutered.

Back on topic! My own belief is that whatever happens, happens. Much of what we do winds up hurting trained individuals under controlled circumstances. Under stress and in a fight with someone who can't fall I can certainly imagine there being pain and suffering.

bcole23
07-17-2002, 04:01 PM
First of all, there are more than one way to perform kotegaeshi and shihonage also. For beginners, when you don't quite have everything down, a good rule of thumb to use is to take the fingers into the elbow. This is the nice way of doing pain compliance as the pain is in the tendons and muscles and not the joint. It's basically folding the arm in on itself. The other way that requires a breakfall is by positioning the hand perpendicular to the forearm and going over that way.

For shihonage, you can take uke's hand down the center of their spine which is quite nice, doesn't hurt and is very effective, or you can take their arm to the outside and make them do a hardfall.

The main thing is that both examples of these two techniques are performed correctly. It all depends on the situation. If uke can't take a breakfall, don't make them do it. It's your choice.

Also, one must learn control. You have to internalize when that point of breaking is going to be and not go beyond it. I think that this is learned only through constant practice and cannot be taught. You learn at what point of flexion or force something will work at by a plethora of different things but mostly it's feel.

Anywhoo, start with the nice way of doing things until your partner is ready.