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vieq
11-15-2012, 05:17 PM
During the last three months I 've been training Aikido finally :D

What bothers me is that in those three months I 've had injures I never had when I was in powerlifting and certainly not in three months only :D

There is a gab between training and the power to sustain my training colleagues mistakes and there for I am hurt and in pain.

I had a surgery before in my right shoulder to stabilize it, my left shoulder was this close of getting dislocated my left knee is now 1st or 2nd grade a ruptured knee ligaments :D, that of course not mentioning the slight cracks that occurs now and then during the training session.

how do we train?, well we give it a warm and up and static exercises for the 1st hour and in the second we do it Aikido.

We're three old guys and lot's of kids with ages like 15-18 :/, so basically it's still all about Bruce Lee in their heads.

Of course it ain't enough and I can not really think of anything to fill in this gab (being powerful enough to sustain the mistakes of my colleagues) without burning out.

Basia Halliop
11-15-2012, 09:42 PM
Huh, that's a lot of injuries. There's always some risk but that seems maybe more like a pattern. People being too reckless or doing things hard that they don't have the skill to do hard safely?

Or not enough focus on ukemi skills (which incorporate far more than just 'falling')?

Conditioning (strength and range of motion and flexibility, etc) can help prevent some injuries but not all of them.

I'm not sure what you mean by being 'powerful enough', though. I can see how lack of physical conditioning like weakness or stiffness might make you vulnerable but conditioning won't really make up for lack of ukemi skills, I don't think -- which mostly don't involve being 'powerful', as far as I can see.

Basia Halliop
11-15-2012, 09:50 PM
BTW, if someone you're training with is training in a way that makes you feel unsafe, tell them to ease up. It's your body...

vieq
11-15-2012, 11:49 PM
Huh, that's a lot of injuries. There's always some risk but that seems maybe more like a pattern. People being too reckless or doing things hard that they don't have the skill to do hard safely?

Or not enough focus on ukemi skills (which incorporate far more than just 'falling')?

Conditioning (strength and range of motion and flexibility, etc) can help prevent some injuries but not all of them.

I'm not sure what you mean by being 'powerful enough', though. I can see how lack of physical conditioning like weakness or stiffness might make you vulnerable but conditioning won't really make up for lack of ukemi skills, I don't think -- which mostly don't involve being 'powerful', as far as I can see.

BTW, if someone you're training with is training in a way that makes you feel unsafe, tell them to ease up. It's your body...

We're like 10 trainees, three of us by the age of 30 and it's the only selection that treats each one another with extreme cautious and do the moves very very slowly tell it's understood.

The rest of the trainees are much younger, 15-18.

The coach knows we collect the moves much faster than them for our focus so he insists we train with them :straightf

By powerful I mean the ability to sustain an injury to it's lowest level for instance be able to use strength against a wrong move.

That partially helped me when we were taught Ushiro for instance, my shoulder almost got dislocated but I think it was the muscle mass that prevented it from being complete dislocation, I think it was Ushiro.

Do not know how to explain this any further, perhaps widen the range of questions?

Basia Halliop
11-16-2012, 12:47 AM
Is there a reason you don't tell the teenagers to slow down or do things with less force until they're able to do things safely? Clearly their skills or your ukemi (or probably both) aren't up to what they're trying to do. And it's a martial art -- lots of things can be dangerous. And since you're the one they're doing it to it's your right to say what's OK and what isn't.

In the long term if it was me I'd say learn more ukemi skills (e.g. one thing is how to move along with the way they're pulling/pushing you so as to minimize the forces on your body so you don't need to be as strong to 'take' the forces). But that takes time to learn and anyway no one is invincible. Especially if someone's doing things hard and clumsy -- bad combination... Lots of ways someone can seriously injure you. Sometimes you need to say 'no'.

Eva Antonia
11-16-2012, 03:21 AM
Dear Mohamed,

did you see a doctor about your knee ligaments? I got mine ruptured doing a wrong tai sabaki (with the weight of a stubborn uke on me), and when I went to the hospital in order to ask what it was (thought the knee was dislocated), he said I had two choices:
- either, for elder people or for those not doing intensive sports/ training/ martial arts...just let it recover naturally, with some physiotherapy for strengthening the supporting muscles. No surgery, but there would be the risk of arthrosis due to overstraining if I'd swim, continue aikido etc.
- or, for younger people and those doing intensive sports/ training/ martial arts => operate it, either immediately (that was too late for me because I waited 10 days before going to the hospital) or after > 3 months, in order to let the swell go down. I had the surgery, and everything was fine afterwards (htat's for three years, can't say what will be the long term outcome).

So if you want to continue aikido or any other martial art or intensive sport etc., maybe you should do something about your knee. From what I understood, doing nothing is dangerous at long term, and with 30 you are not old, you have decades to develop an arthrosis, and that's certainly not what you want. One of our elder sempai has arthrosis (worked as a truck driver, and that got on his knees), and he's off the mat ever now and then, it hurts, and there are lots of techniques he can't do properly anymore because of his knee. He's 67.

Coming to the gap between power and skill - I suppose that's maybe extreme because powerlifting and aikido are so very opposite. If you lift weights, you work on muscles, in aikido, you work on flexibility, reaction and spatial perception. You'll certainly often hear from your sensei "don't use force!"
But very strong people are often very rigid and have much more problems in receiving ukemi than small, thin or frail ones. Most of the lightweights in my dojo and elsewhere fall like cats or like leaves. The strong men fall like blocks of concrete. Same for locks - we bend, you break. We have a newbie who is a construction worker, and he started on advice of his doctor. The doctor said that aikido would do him good because it would help him to relax his shoulders. I suppose lifting 50 kg cement bags is not so different from powerlifting...

So maybe at long term you will become a brilliant aikidoka, but at the beginning I suppose the skills and strength you got from powerlifting are rather an impediment than an added value for aikido.

Wishing you all the best for your aikido and especially for your health,

Eva

robin_jet_alt
11-16-2012, 04:41 AM
Do you get hurt as uke or as tori? If you are getting hurt as tori, then you need to change how you train, and if it is as Uke, then Basia is right and you need to practice your ukemi.

If you are in your thirties, I don't think it's an age issue. I am 31, and I feel like I am in my prime right now.

phitruong
11-16-2012, 08:08 AM
What bothers me is that in those three months I 've had injures I never had when I was in powerlifting and certainly not in three months only :D

Of course it ain't enough and I can not really think of anything to fill in this gab (being powerful enough to sustain the mistakes of my colleagues) without burning out.

power lifting give strength in a somewhat linear fashion. your muscle might be strong, but your joints might not. aikido tends to put rotational stress to your joints which i believed you are not used too or trained to deal with through power lifting. muscle strength in this case might be detrimental to your practice, because it can be used to further increase the stress on your joints when techniques apply to your body, i.e. if nage applies rotational component to your joints, and if your put up some resistance, your muscles will increase the stress on your own joints many folds.

so try the opposite approach, being weak enough to protect yourself. strange and confusing, yes? :)

vieq
11-16-2012, 09:01 AM
First of all, I thank you for taking the time to write this down with full focus and consideration.

Dear Mohamed,

did you see a doctor about your knee ligaments?

Yes :) and he told me it's 1st or 2nd grade, if it developed to the 3rd grade then he'd have to do arthroscopy on it.

So he told me to use this Dorofen (http://drugbase.org/drugs/drug_details.php?drugid=1137) tell my knee do not hurt.

It actually hurt on couple of positions other than that it's ok.


So if you want to continue aikido or any other martial art or intensive sport etc., maybe you should do something about your knee. From what I understood, doing nothing is dangerous at long term, and with 30 you are not old, you have decades to develop an arthrosis, and that's certainly not what you want. One of our elder sempai has arthrosis (worked as a truck driver, and that got on his knees), and he's off the mat ever now and then, it hurts, and there are lots of techniques he can't do properly anymore because of his knee. He's 67.

Well, he knows I am into sport and I asked him wither I should continue training or not, he told me avoid sitting crossed legs on the ground and avoid the seiza position.

That's all, also I looked up couple of exercises to help my knee.


Coming to the gap between power and skill - I suppose that's maybe extreme because powerlifting and aikido are so very opposite. If you lift weights, you work on muscles, in aikido, you work on flexibility, reaction and spatial perception. You'll certainly often hear from your sensei "don't use force!"


Well, actually I may have miss used the word power here, cause like you said I was taught that using force in any move is totally wrong with Aikido, it's about flexibility.


But very strong people are often very rigid and have much more problems in receiving ukemi than small, thin or frail ones. Most of the lightweights in my dojo and elsewhere fall like cats or like leaves. The strong men fall like blocks of concrete.


I and another fellow of mine are the only two big guys in the training are the only two who fall correctly that's what I 've been told by the coach.

If I was let to fall I fall correctly, if my colleague insisted on completing the move tell the point of break that's when shit happens and that's mostly how it occurred in the first place


Wishing you all the best for your aikido and especially for your health,

Eva



Amen, and to you as well.


Do you get hurt as uke or as tori?


As an uke, actually the younger ones come to me cause I am the nice guy and accept all their nastiness, they feel great throwing me around :D


power lifting give strength in a somewhat linear fashion. your muscle might be strong, but your joints might not. aikido tends to put rotational stress to your joints which i believed you are not used too or trained to deal with through power lifting. muscle strength in this case might be detrimental to your practice, because it can be used to further increase the stress on your joints when techniques apply to your body, i.e. if nage applies rotational component to your joints, and if your put up some resistance, your muscles will increase the stress on your own joints many folds.

so try the opposite approach, being weak enough to protect yourself. strange and confusing, yes?


Totally :D

Well, here is the thing; before I finally got to train Aikido I stopped powerlifting before it by a period of time.

I simply did that to cut lose the aggressiveness I picked up through powerlifting.

The why I mentioned powerlifting again is I thought if my muscles were in a good shape that might protect the joints at least 50%, apparently I am wrong.

I noticed that if I resisted in certain moves things will be even worse so I tend to be flexible as much as I can and at the same time it's more like having all my powers fired up at the right moment to change course, more like a jet got fuel and got pushing speed; the pilot turns off the jet for a min and count on the push he got and then fires up his engines to change course (I am not even sure that's a legitimate example or not :D )

I tried to think of a compromise, train with no wights...like soldiers or those with no gym access.

How about that?

PS: I am 180cm tall and weigh 95kg, so thinking about being weak enough end's up with the figure of me losing more and more wight but that would leave me still tall :D

Cliff Judge
11-16-2012, 09:23 AM
You are doing all kinds of movement your body is not used to yet. Take a break here and there, stretch after class, you will get used to it.

vieq
11-16-2012, 10:48 AM
You are doing all kinds of movement your body is not used to yet. Take a break here and there, stretch after class, you will get used to it.

:D oh yes, I am counting on it. I stopped powerlifting before Aikido and now my only sport is walking :D

Janet Rosen
11-16-2012, 11:24 AM
By powerful I mean the ability to sustain an injury to it's lowest level for instance be able to use strength against a wrong move.

AH! Resisting against the wrong move WILL create injury.
The way to avoid injury is to relax and move INTO the "wrong move" until you can escape or take a fall/roll.
Also you can INSIST the younger students SLOW DOWN so that if they "crank" hard on your joints you have time to tap out.

C. David Henderson
11-16-2012, 12:20 PM
Mohamed,

For what it may be worth:



If I was let to fall I fall correctly, if my colleague insisted on completing the move tell the point of break that's when shit happens and that's mostly how it occurred in the first place .... As an uke, actually the younger ones come to me cause I am the nice guy and accept all their nastiness, they feel great throwing me around.

Sometime newer students apply "power" to techniques at places that don't make much sense, but increase the chance of injury. "Cranking" an arm lock, for example, after you've already cooperated in allowing them to apply the technique and entrusted them with your limb. Or trying to complete a throw in an unexpected direction or dangerous position (like shiho nage that requires a break fall).

Over time, it becomes easier to anticipate this kind of problem and to deal with it.

But since you also are a newer student, and since this situation is resulting in injury that limits your training capacity, maybe you should consider taking steps to tone things down for the time being.

I noticed that if I resisted in certain moves things will be even worse so I tend to be flexible as much as I can and at the same time it's more like having all my powers fired up at the right moment to change course

I'm not sure I'm understanding this completely, but watch out that this doesn't result in tensing up, particularly in the upper torso and shoulders.

I tried to think of a compromise, train with no wights...like soldiers or those with no gym access.

You might want to train off the mat, but you may want to focus a lot on the kinds of exercises you do in class. If you have access to some kind of suitable surface, you might also consider practicing your falls.

[T]hinking about being weak enough end's up with the figure of me losing more and more w[e]ight but that would leave me still tall.

I know an instructor who is a very tall and strong guy. He never relies on his strength. He moves in a very precise and graceful way as nage (tori) and has superb ukemi. The kind of weakness I think Phi was getting at doesn't require you to waste away, but to give up relying on being physically strong when you are practicing. When I practice with a child, for example, it is a great opportunity for me to be as soft -- and precise -- as I can.

Good luck.

Basia Halliop
11-16-2012, 02:31 PM
FWIW, I do know people who do both strength training and aikido and are not stiff at all. I do a little bit myself and found it helped me get less injuries, not more. I think in theory it's possible to do in such a way that it helps rather than hurting. But it's true that you have to THINK differently in aikido, and get away from the habit of tensing your muscles in certain ways. It's the mind part that's the most different, I think. And you have to be sure to train in such a way that keeps you flexible.

What I've been told by others and try to do myself when doing any kind of strength training is to focus on exercises that go through a full range of motion of my joints, ones that use my whole body including all the little supporting muscles, exercises that work on balance and proprioception and core... Things that help you be strong in a flexible and agile way, not in a stiff or resistant way.

I am not particularly big myself (by which I mean I'm 5'3" and a woman) and I am usually fine with people much bigger than me throwing me around fairly hard or pinning me. The biggest thing is moving with it, not against it, and being relaxed enough that you can feel things quickly to do that. That usually kind of neutralizes the forces. But it's also true that there are times people have you trapped and can hurt you. So communication with your partner is also part of it. Learning when to tap and when to stop your partner and tell them to slow down.

vieq
11-16-2012, 03:40 PM
AH! Resisting against the wrong move WILL create injury.
The way to avoid injury is to relax and move INTO the "wrong move" until you can escape or take a fall/roll.
Also you can INSIST the younger students SLOW DOWN so that if they "crank" hard on your joints you have time to tap out.

God know's how many times I screamed about it, the harm was already done. :)

Mohamed,

For what it may be worth:

Sometime newer students apply "power" to techniques at places that don't make much sense, but increase the chance of injury. "Cranking" an arm lock, for example, after you've already cooperated in allowing them to apply the technique and entrusted them with your limb. Or trying to complete a throw in an unexpected direction or dangerous position (like shiho nage that requires a break fall).

Over time, it becomes easier to anticipate this kind of problem and to deal with it.

But since you also are a newer student, and since this situation is resulting in injury that limits your training capacity, maybe you should consider taking steps to tone things down for the time being.


This is exactly why I posted, I want to know which steps to take to minimize the injuries as much as I can


You might want to train off the mat, but you may want to focus a lot on the kinds of exercises you do in class. If you have access to some kind of suitable surface, you might also consider practicing your falls.



I can fall, I just do not know how to mimic a wrongful throw fall :)


I know an instructor who is a very tall and strong guy. He never relies on his strength. He moves in a very precise and graceful way as nage (tori) and has superb ukemi. The kind of weakness I think Phi was getting at doesn't require you to waste away, but to give up relying on being physically strong when you are practicing. When I practice with a child, for example, it is a great opportunity for me to be as soft -- and precise -- as I can.

Good luck.

No No, Sir I was not going to relay on power replacing a wrong move to give it an authentic look; I was counting on escaping from a wrong move using it.

FWIW, I do know people who do both strength training and aikido and are not stiff at all. I do a little bit myself and found it helped me get less injuries, not more. I think in theory it's possible to do in such a way that it helps rather than hurting. But it's true that you have to THINK differently in aikido, and get away from the habit of tensing your muscles in certain ways. It's the mind part that's the most different, I think. And you have to be sure to train in such a way that keeps you flexible.

What I've been told by others and try to do myself when doing any kind of strength training is to focus on exercises that go through a full range of motion of my joints, ones that use my whole body including all the little supporting muscles, exercises that work on balance and proprioception and core... Things that help you be strong in a flexible and agile way, not in a stiff or resistant way.

I am not particularly big myself (by which I mean I'm 5'3" and a woman) and I am usually fine with people much bigger than me throwing me around fairly hard or pinning me. The biggest thing is moving with it, not against it, and being relaxed enough that you can feel things quickly to do that. That usually kind of neutralizes the forces. But it's also true that there are times people have you trapped and can hurt you. So communication with your partner is also part of it. Learning when to tap and when to stop your partner and tell them to slow down.

Exercises that go over joints is a good place to start, only if we agreed it will make my joints capable of taking more of this nastiness.

===========================

Guys, I do not want this too look like an argument

I answered the question of me resisting or copping with it.

Power to me means "The Power to Escape" not to "The Power to turn it over"

that's all :D

Shadowfax
11-16-2012, 04:03 PM
It is a little worrisome that you have only been training for three months and are being injured this much and subjected to hard/fast throws by your fellow students when neither of you is really experienced enough to be doing such things yet.. Your teacher needs to be taking control of this situation. Personally if thins sort of thing were going on and didn't feel like my teachers could get matters under control I would be looking for another place to train. But then I need my body in working order to make a living and can't afford to get hurt in the name of letting some kids play to rough.

I hope you find a resolution to your problem before you get hurt even worse.

Basia Halliop
11-16-2012, 04:05 PM
Exercises that go over joints is a good place to start, only if we agreed it will make my joints capable of taking more of this nastiness.

'More' of it, maybe... but a lot of joint locks and throws are able to cause damage even in strong healthy people -- that's one of the points of them, one of the things joint locks and throws are designed to do. As your partners get more experienced they should learn to be better at controlling you without injuring you.

If they go slower you'll have more time to realize something's wrong and tap out before you get injured. Like you said, when people are going fast sometimes the reaction times are too long to stop someone on time. It's probably good for them anyway, to have to go slow and figure out where the actual control and balance are.

vieq
11-16-2012, 04:53 PM
It is a little worrisome that you have only been training for three months and are being injured this much and subjected to hard/fast throws by your fellow students when neither of you is really experienced enough to be doing such things yet.. Your teacher needs to be taking control of this situation. Personally if thins sort of thing were going on and didn't feel like my teachers could get matters under control I would be looking for another place to train. But then I need my body in working order to make a living and can't afford to get hurt in the name of letting some kids play to rough.

I hope you find a resolution to your problem before you get hurt even worse.

Well, you got that one correct and I kept telling him I do not wanna train with kids and he simply answered you have to, they're the majority of the training.

What is fantastic about it all, is this place and this coach are the only ones in my town; next stop is 140KM away :(

'More' of it, maybe... but a lot of joint locks and throws are able to cause damage even in strong healthy people -- that's one of the points of them, one of the things joint locks and throws are designed to do

Even that won't work, mm ... I 'll take some time off to think of a solution if not I 'll return to my meditating stage where I could not still find any where to practice Aikido.


If they go slower you'll have more time to realize something's wrong and tap out before you get injured. Like you said, when people are going fast sometimes the reaction times are too long to stop someone on time. It's probably good for them anyway, to have to go slow and figure out where the actual control and balance are.

Yes, that is correct and no matter how I showed them the benefits of doing it slowly they keep the state of Jet Lee and Bruce Lee and any Lee in their; even when the coach turns his back to do something they practice bunches and kicks on the heavy bag :straightf

I 'll figure out something.

C. David Henderson
11-16-2012, 04:54 PM
Hi Mohamed,

I didn't think you were trying to start an argument, but I suspect we still may not be communicating very well.



This is exactly why I posted, I want to know which steps to take to minimize the injuries as much as I can

When you've fallen tens of thousands of times, you'll know "in your body" and instinctively. Until you have more experience, I suggest the best way to avoid injury is probably communicating with your partner and telling them to take it easy.

BTW, from your description, their learning likely would be better served that way too.

I can fall, I just do not know how to mimic a wrongful throw fall :)

Well, since I haven't seen you practice, I obviously don't have good information on how you fall.

Still, I'd suggest that over time practicing your falls, even if just standard rolls, should help you protect yourself better against the unexpected. More than just that, you also asked about exercise outside of class.

Practicing your falls is a form of physical conditioning as well as skills practice, and one specific to this activity.

Falling is also the context in which a person's body is subjected to a large proportion of the physical stress associated with aikido.

I find it useful to develop both more skill and better physical conditioning to deal effectively with that stress, just as you earlier developed the skill and conditioning needed to be a power lifter.

Try this -- do around 50 forward rolls without stopping, going back and forth from one side to another. Do it a few times a week for a few months. See what happens.

No No, Sir I was not going to rel[]y on power replacing a wrong move to give it an authentic look; I was counting on escaping from a wrong move using it.
*****
Power to me means "The Power to Escape" not to "The Power to turn it over"

If this is still what you're trying to find, perhaps some of the difficulty I'm having is the word "power" in this context. Given you're background, it seems you're referring to the physical strength you developed lifting.

Sometimes I probably do have the "power to escape" a technique in that sense simply because I'm stronger than a particular partner.

To me, it usually makes more sense to talk about the "ability" to escape (or reverse), not "power."

Anyway, take care of yourself.

Shadowfax
11-16-2012, 05:19 PM
Well, you got that one correct and I kept telling him I do not wanna train with kids and he simply answered you have to, they're the majority of the training.

What is fantastic about it all, is this place and this coach are the only ones in my town; next stop is 140KM away :(
.

Sorry to hear that. Life is to short to waste your time with a lousy teacher. Better to find a really good teacher in some other art than to continue as you are IMHO. Considering what you describe I would wonder about the quality of what you are being taught.

Basia Halliop
11-16-2012, 08:15 PM
Is there anyone in your class who's very good at 'taking' the crazy teenagers' techniques without getting hurt? Does the teacher ever practice with them himself? Learning to take techniques safely is IMO part of the training and you should be getting gradually taught how to do it better and better, maybe from your teacher directly or from students senior to you.

Falls, definitely -- even if you're doing them better than others in the class you can always get better. And there are a lot of different ways of falling that can be useful in different situations. Also moving with pressure instead of against it, 'escaping' at times, etc. Being in good shape physically, with strong and flexible joints and being able to move lightly and quickly. And if you have anything that's already injured and not healed that part will make you more vulnerable. Those things are important even when the technique is being done right, but they will all be what makes you more likely to save yourself when something goes wrong, too.

There are lots of things you can do to get better at protecting yourself, they're just not 100% though in every situation, that's all I'm saying. You still need partners who are doing their part to be safe too.

vieq
11-16-2012, 09:01 PM
Sorry to hear that. Life is to short to waste your time with a lousy teacher. Better to find a really good teacher in some other art than to continue as you are IMHO. Considering what you describe I would wonder about the quality of what you are being taught.

Do not ask :D

Is there anyone in your class who's very good at 'taking' the crazy teenagers' techniques without getting hurt? Does the teacher ever practice with them himself? Learning to take techniques safely is IMO part of the training and you should be getting gradually taught how to do it better and better, maybe from your teacher directly or from students senior to you.


He got his left shoulder dislocated twice cause of the kids too :D



Falls, definitely -- even if you're doing them better than others in the class you can always get better. And there are a lot of different ways of falling that can be useful in different situations. Also moving with pressure instead of against it, 'escaping' at times, etc. Being in good shape physically, with strong and flexible joints and being able to move lightly and quickly. And if you have anything that's already injured and not healed that part will make you more vulnerable. Those things are important even when the technique is being done right, but they will all be what makes you more likely to save yourself when something goes wrong, too.

There are lots of things you can do to get better at protecting yourself, they're just not 100% though in every situation, that's all I'm saying. You still need partners who are doing their part to be safe too.

He him self hits the gym after our training to enrich the strength of his shoulders to be able to take more hits :D

I made a conclusion, either I do the same _OR_ stop complaining

Thanks guys :)

Janet Rosen
11-16-2012, 11:56 PM
You are NOT in a normal or a healthy training environment. The kinds of injuries you describe do happen from time to time, but never that often, and training that fosters them is not proper training. A teacher should never create a culture that routinely put his students in harm's way.

Krystal Locke
11-17-2012, 01:01 AM
What rank is your instructor? It sounds like he simply doesn't know enough to teach you when to tap, and hasn't instructed the younger folk at all.

I think we're missing something in a language gap....

Walter Martindale
11-17-2012, 07:29 AM
Your instructor/coach may have told you that your ukemi is good - but he may not have said "for your present level of experience".

I was practicing a while ago - shortly after the nidan grading - and was complaining to the instructor (a 6th dan) that I wasn't getting some part of what he was teaching.. His reply was along the lines that I was getting better - my technique was fine for someone who was not yet a black belt but I was learning it well enough that I could tell when something was off...
And that's not really a good description of what he said.

Your ukemi and throwing may be good "for someone with 3 months training" but when you get to three years training you'll know that it probably wasn't "good"...

BTW I still struggle with the dozens of ways to do Kotegaeshi... oh.. and all the rest of them. After 17 years.

vieq
11-17-2012, 01:19 PM
What rank is your instructor? It sounds like he simply doesn't know enough to teach you when to tap, and hasn't instructed the younger folk at all.

I think we're missing something in a language gap....

He is 1st dan, went for the 2nd dan but got his shoulder dislocated so, he washed out.

Your instructor/coach may have told you that your ukemi is good - but he may not have said "for your present level of experience".

I was practicing a while ago - shortly after the nidan grading - and was complaining to the instructor (a 6th dan) that I wasn't getting some part of what he was teaching.. His reply was along the lines that I was getting better - my technique was fine for someone who was not yet a black belt but I was learning it well enough that I could tell when something was off...
And that's not really a good description of what he said.

Your ukemi and throwing may be good "for someone with 3 months training" but when you get to three years training you'll know that it probably wasn't "good"...

BTW I still struggle with the dozens of ways to do Kotegaeshi... oh.. and all the rest of them. After 17 years.

I think I am going to pay him a little visit tonight to update him with my injury :D, that 'll be a surprise :D

He still thinks it's something minor :p

Thanks guys

Krystal Locke
11-18-2012, 01:10 AM
I get the impression that something is really off here. Granted, I dislocated a shoulder or two when I was learning to take ukemi, but a probationary nidan jacking his shoulder that bad, from a rough young buck? That's odd.

Lyle Laizure
11-18-2012, 04:00 AM
One of the nice things about Aikido is that once your partner has applied the technique to you, you then get to apply the technique to your patner. It is a cyclical relationship. If you have told these younger folks to lighten up and they do not you have a few options. Your first step would be to bring it to the attention of the instructor. If the instructor doesn't make it clear to all students that they need to be careful with their practice then I would find a new dojo. If the instructor does tell the students and they still choose to be rough then when it is your turn you reciprocate.

Krystal Locke
11-18-2012, 10:32 AM
One of the nice things about Aikido is that once your partner has applied the technique to you, you then get to apply the technique to your patner. It is a cyclical relationship. If you have told these younger folks to lighten up and they do not you have a few options. Your first step would be to bring it to the attention of the instructor. If the instructor doesn't make it clear to all students that they need to be careful with their practice then I would find a new dojo. If the instructor does tell the students and they still choose to be rough then when it is your turn you reciprocate.

IF they dont injure you first. I think that the custom of letting the senior student be nage first is wise that way, so they have a chance to set a safe and appropriate training tone with less chance of injuring their uke. And uke gets to see the technique a couple more times, as long as sempai is behaving correctly.....

vieq
11-18-2012, 08:54 PM
Will, let me inform each of you honorable members that I followed your advice and stopped with this coach tell I find another one.

Wish me luck finding another one near home as you wished me to find one from the start.

Thanks all

Janet Rosen
11-18-2012, 10:58 PM
Mohamed, best of luck in finding a good, safe place to train, if not in aikido than perhaps in another martial art.