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ChrisHein
11-12-2012, 03:23 AM
http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/mike-sigmans-blog-6969/baseline-internal-strength-parameters-4216/

Really, have all the "IP" people on Aikiweb read this?
Is this really what all the commotion is about? All the name calling, and silly feuds are about?

This is a very normal thing Mike is talking about, why does anyone think they need to go to one of only a few "vetted" people to get this stuff? What Mike wrote here is great, a very good explanation of a lot of what is going on in internal. Very similar to how my Chinese internal teacher would have outlined them (My teacher who was insulted many times). This is mostly how I would describe these things, why are all these crazy ideas flying around? This stuff is normal!

Secondly, notice how I move around trying to illustrate the body's intrinsic ability to maintain that balance-path/ground-path if I'll just let it. The body is a frame, but it's a flexible frame as long as you're using jin rather than rigid "structure" to handle the incoming force.

Here Mike is talking about structure. And how he uses "balance-path/ground-path" (alignment). He is not saying that you don't need the ground, or that your structure is not important. This is normal, any good football coach will teach you these things- he won't use these words, but he will say the same things.

In the post about [1.] Jin as Balance, Body as Flexible Frame I was basically talking about what the makeup of jin is: it's a force skill based on an intrinsic ability of the body to juggle forces even while the body is moving and it's a force skill that draws its power from the ground (or sometimes the weight, in the case of down-power). The question of jin and force vectors gets confused when we begin to look at 2 humans interacting with their forces.


Here again, Mike is talking about flexible frame, or what I would call structure. And how you are using the ground, or weight to make force... He is also talking about the ability to dynamically align the structure of the body using the bodies natural ability to juggle forces.

How is this different than anything your wrestling coach would have told you? Why does anyone think that are there only like 8 guys who know how to do this. I mean really this is totally normal athletics here! Why would anyone need to be "vetted" to be sure they know this stuff? This is normal!

In order to most efficiently use the body connection(s) for strength, the body logically should function as a complete unit when doing tasks. The logical control unit for whole-body usage is the middle of the body and that's why there's so much emphasis on the dantien/tanden/hara as the focal point (and why shoulder usage would hinder whole-body control).

Every martial art I have studied has told about this, from Kendo to BJJ, this is not anything special. It's normal!


The general idea is to connect the body so that a movement of the dantien is connected to the hands (or feet, legs, elbows, head, etc.) via the Jin/intention and the suit/qi. The dantien draws its power from the solidity of the ground or the central weight of the body ("ground or gravity"; the Qi of the Earth). A person who has practiced and developed this skill (over a long time) can spot very quickly whether or how much some other practitioner has developed the same skill; the skill (and percentage of skill level) can be felt in another person, as well.


good athletics.

Really this just goes on and on. All of what Mike is writing about is very normal! It's also very good! That's why athletes use these same principles. Good sports people know these things.

After reading this, it seems silly. Everyone is so worked up, worried about selling themselves at their next seminar, that they have ramped up these simple, great ideas. They have made them out to be some kind of thing that only special people know; that's just not true.

Look if Mike Sigman is going to talk to you plain and simple like this, I would go do his seminars. This is a great outline of how the body should be used during athletic pursuits (yes, Aikido is an athletic pursuit, you are an athlete, congratulations). I would go to anyone who simply outlines these things. I would not go to anyone trying to trick you, telling you that they are the only person who knows these things, or you've got to go see this fellow because they know he has the "goods" it's just not true. If someone says something like "with this special power, no one can defeat me" or strength doesn't matter, leave go to a simple person outlining normal athletic activity, like Mike outlined here.

Please stop this silly action, let's just accept that we are all, at least a little, interested in learning to use our bodies correctly, and that is called athletics, and lot's of people know about that. Let's stop fighting, and pretending we are super special. Let's just enjoy the training!

Or as Mike says in his own words!- Did you guys read this!?
One of the confusing things I used to run into was the number of statements about things that were done in a Chinese martial-art; the impression was "these are the things done uniquely in this art". It took a while to realize that almost all of the "things that we do in this art" are also pretty commonly the things that are done in all the other arts, although with occasional variations and permutations. Looking into some of the written lore that is sparingly available in Japanese martial-arts, it's pretty clear that the same basic principles are also found in those arts, again with variations, permutations, and different levels of completeness.

This is crazy, and cost me my whole week to figure out. Bah!

asiawide
11-12-2012, 03:59 AM
Well... maybe what Sigman says and does are not unique but very very normal in CMA or sports training. However, I like his universal theory and exercises too. With that tools it becomes easier to understand what famous XXX senseis do. I strongly recommend him but at the same time I don't want my dojo mates know about his stuffs.

mrlizard123
11-12-2012, 04:18 AM
This stuff is normal!

This is crazy, and cost me my whole week to figure out. Bah!

Awesome, you get it and thankfully you already knew it; I guess that's something of a weight off your mind.

I guess no more starting threads asking about it or needing to join other threads discussing it then?

Enjoy your training.

Lee Salzman
11-12-2012, 05:03 AM
Chris, the words are not what matter in the end. The words are not what make these people special. Most of these words you could probably find in your average questionable Matt Furey product. What matters here is the degree to which these skills have been burned into the body and the methods used to do that.

While most of these concepts exist in our idea of modern athletics, they are a bit schizophrenic and all over the map in their development, and basically lacking. There are people out there with skills along other axes than simple athleticism - they don't replace athleticism, they augment it - and they are developed to unusual degrees through methodology that we might ordinarily dismiss or not immediately recognize the potential of without specific in-the-flesh exemplars. You know who these people are by now, no need to belabor that - they all have varying degrees of worthwhile things, so don't either make the mistake of judging any one based on the other either. Go seek them out and feel them before you dismiss things based on mere false cognates in skill development terminology.

You will not find the answers you think you found by any amount of reading words on a screen. Some things are ultimately transmitted non-verbally by feel in the end, despite what the words imply, they are not exhaustive descriptions of what is going on and can only vaguely point the way.

Lorel Latorilla
11-12-2012, 06:59 AM
Awesome, you get it and thankfully you already knew it; I guess that's something of a weight off your mind.

I guess no more starting threads asking about it or needing to join other threads discussing it then?

Enjoy your training.

Gotta repeat this!

john.burn
11-12-2012, 07:17 AM
this is not anything special. It's normal!

Hmmmm, I agree entirely with what everyone else has said to you.

I hold Ikeda sensei as the gold standard for being able to use and apply IS in an Aikido framework - I have NEVER felt any other Aikido teacher with the skill set he has and definitely no Aikido student.

If it was normal, everyone would be able to do it. They can't. Why not? It's not normal that's why.

You seem to have a real issue trying to meet any of these people, I'm assuming you've at least made the effort to train with the one Aikido teacher that everyone seems to agree has the goods?

chillzATL
11-12-2012, 07:38 AM
lol, you guys are still getting baited like this?

MM
11-12-2012, 07:45 AM
This is a post for all the readers.

What Chris Hein is trying to tell you is that this IP/aiki stuff is "normal". It's athletic training. And that:


After reading this, it seems silly. Everyone is so worked up, worried about selling themselves at their next seminar, that they have ramped up these simple, great ideas. They have made them out to be some kind of thing that only special people know; that's just not true.



Let's review then.

David Orange who trained with Mochizuki
Bill Gleason, who trained with Saotome and Yamaguchi
Marc Abrams who trained with Imaizumi and Ushiro
Chris Li who trained with too many to list but includes top Aikido shihan
Allen Beebe who trained with Shirata
George Ledyard who trained with Saotome and many others
Howard Popkin (who isn't nearly as fat as an iceberg :D ) from Daito ryu who trained with Okamoto (student of Kodo Horikawa) can be added to the list.
Richard Stevens was the most recent and publicly posted his thoughts here on Aikiweb. But, there were others who preceded him.

So, you have top people in aikido who trained with top Japanese shihan and then went and experienced what this IP/aiki stuff was all about. These people are training IP/aiki. None called it "normal" nor did they equate it to good athletic training.

Chris Hein (who trained with which Japanese shihan and which IP/aiki people?) has said it's "normal" and good athletic training. And that all these other people are wrong.

Let's recap that.

Abrams, Beebe, Gleason, Ledyard, Li, Popkin, Orange (hundreds of years of training history with exceptional Aikido shihan) all state IP/aiki is different and are training it -- VS -- Chris Hein who states they don't know what they're talking about and are wrong as it's all just normal athletic training.

That's just the above named people. How about all the other aikido people (numbering in the hundreds) who are training IP/aiki now?

So, readers ... you decide. Who would you believe?

phitruong
11-12-2012, 08:46 AM
i knew it! that's sigman dude was a fake! i shouldn't have listen to him. i shouldn't let him did the zero inch palm strike that launched me some distance. i knew that big bugger sneaked under me while i wasn't looking and stood there smirking while i squatted all the way to the floor in order to uproot him. that's it! i am going back to do aerobic kickboxing with them ladies in leotard. at least this way, i have good views and learned how to kick ass at the same time. :)

gregstec
11-12-2012, 09:07 AM
lol, you guys are still getting baited like this?

Yes, it does have all the 'earmarks' of a good troll - If it is not a troll, and all this stuff is so simple and found in all athletics, then why is it not seen more? - Now that Chris realizes how simple it all is, maybe we will see some evidence of a connected body in his videos from now on - unfortunately, none of his previous videos showed any clue that indicated a connected body in any of the movements.

Greg

Keith Larman
11-12-2012, 09:17 AM
Chris:

I can understand and respect your point of view. Been there. And frankly, yeah, it is all physics. It is all explainable as I don't believe in magic. I can't explain it very well myself, but I've learned a couple things, developed a few minor skills, and find my universe expanding a bit. All this because I got on the mat with a couple of these guys and found that they could do stuff I couldn't even remotely do or deal with in return.

So maybe it is the same stuff you think it is and you're the guy who we should all be training with. I honestly wouldn't dismiss it as a possibility, but, well, I've heard it quite a few times only to see people baffled, confused, flustered, etc. The choice for them has always been to either re-calibrate their ideas or to walk out.

I've seen both.

Unlike some I don't see it as the end-all. I see a vastly larger picture. But larger picture and all I see this stuff as integral and critical. Not that it isn't there otherwise in some respects in some places, but the quality of it varies tremendously. And more importantly the question for me is whether those who can do some of it can transmit it to their students, cause that's what's gonna matter to me.

But sure, it's all explainable because, again, I don't believe in magic. I just don't have a good enough model yet myself to do it. And each guy doing their things seem to have varied nuances to their models even when they use similar words. Which results in variations. But again... None of that means there's nothing there. Or nothing extra.

Chris, you have adopted a position of "convince me why I don't know, convince *me* why I'm wrong.". That's never going to happen and frankly it is foolish to think otherwise. So I'm not going to argue.

In my case years ago I went to some seminars with a local tai chi guy. That left a mark. I come from a lineage that broke off from Ki Society and we focused very strongly on his ki tests. That left a mark. I've subsequently gotten on to the mat with guys like Dan, Toby, Mike and a few others. And played some with students of Angier, Ark, and others. There are some serious ranges of abilities out there, some that seem "magical" to me that aren't just the conventional, fluffy, hand-wavy crap that I hate.

But I've seen this post posted by others many times before. So I doubt it will matter much.

I try very hard not to pre-judge those things I've not felt in person. I go to seminars as a result. I've been to many seminars and classes with highly respect folk only to walk out saying "Meh, not for me.". With those other guys I try to go back whenever I can.

So here's to hoping Howard Popkin makes it out to the left coast one of these days...

Chris, you do what you think is right and I agree quite a bit with many things you've written. Kindred spirit in many ways. Just not on this one.

Alex Megann
11-12-2012, 09:18 AM
I hold Ikeda sensei as the gold standard for being able to use and apply IS in an Aikido framework - I have NEVER felt any other Aikido teacher with the skill set he has and definitely no Aikido student.


Hi John,

Just out of interest, have you ever grabbed Kanetsuka Sensei? In my opinion he and Ikeda Sensei are doing basically the same thing (though Ikeda does actually explain what he is doing in ways that most of us can understand...).

Alex

chillzATL
11-12-2012, 09:28 AM
Yes, it does have all the 'earmarks' of a good troll - If it is not a troll, and all this stuff is so simple and found in all athletics, then why is it not seen more? - Now that Chris realizes how simple it all is, maybe we will see some evidence of a connected body in his videos from now on - unfortunately, none of his previous videos showed any clue that indicated a connected body in any of the movements.

Greg

Well, this isn't the first time. He came to the same conclusion a year or more ago on another IP forum after going in with the same assumptions that he was already doing it and it's just normal athletics. I don't see why people want to work so hard to convince anyone and everyone of what they already believe. Some say why, I say why bother?

Chris Li
11-12-2012, 09:37 AM
Have you trained with Mike? You seem fairly sure of what he's trying to communicate.

I've trained with Mike, and I'm...less sure that he would agree with the characterization that you're making (although only he could say for sure).

I'm not sure why you want people who have experienced something to agree that what they believe they've experienced is different than what they say it is - even though you haven't yourself had that same experience.

...Unless you're just trolling, which seems more and more likely.

Best,

Chris

gregstec
11-12-2012, 09:46 AM
Well, this isn't the first time. He came to the same conclusion a year or more ago on another IP forum after going in with the same assumptions that he was already doing it and it's just normal athletics. I don't see why people want to work so hard to convince anyone and everyone of what they already believe. Some say why, I say why bother?

I am with you on that - Of course there are some similarities between external training and internal training, but they are two distinct things with two different approaches to things. If someone asks questions just to shoot down the answers because of a preconceived conclusion without any real hands on evidence, comes across as trying to stir the pot just for the sake of stirring the pot - a waste of time to me.

Greg

ChrisHein
11-12-2012, 02:28 PM
Hey Keith, Thanks for that post. I respect your position.

When I first started training with an Internal Chinese Martial artist, lot's of the things he would show, seemed pretty amazing, then he would show me how to do it. And a few weeks later, I could do it, not as well mind you, but I could do it. He also took the time to explain to me what was going on in the larger athletic fields, showing me that the kinds of things he was showing were being used all over the place.

If you went to play football with a pro team, the things they would do would blow you away, you would feel like they were not even human. They are "just athletes" but because of the skill difference they seem amazing. However you can learn to do all the same things they can, at your level, by simply training in football.

To me there seems to be an underlying idea that if you learn "IP" you're going to have a mysterious power that almost no one else has. Now I'm sure some of this is my own projections, because this was me for awhile. The universally useful things you learn in "IP" are found in many athletic approaches. When I see things like, only so-and-so has "IP". It sounds silly to me. If we use the word "athletic ability" in place of "IP" we can see how silly that sounds- ONLY so-and-so has athletic ability. We can clearly see that doesn't make sense.

Now saying something like only some people are good at tennis, that makes sense, and we all know it to be true. Only some people are good at doing "Jin demonstration" this to is correct as well. Skill specific things will certainly favor some and not others. People who train skills will be better at them then others. If you want to learn how to fight, you should train with people who are skilled at fighting, training with people who don't fight, even if they have great athletic ability won't give you more fighting skill. If you want to improve your athletic ability (body skills), you could train with lot's of different people, no one person has all the ability.

If you want to learn "jin demonstration" I agree you should go to a specialist, so for example, Mike here is a specialist in jin demonstration, if you're into that, you should probably check him out. But you have to understand that being good an jin demonstration is not going to make you a better tennis player. If you want to play tennis, the people who have that best figured out, are already doing it, go see them. Same with fighting, my CMA teacher is now the head coach for a professional MMA team, he is not doing that because he's good at demonstrating jin, he's doing that because he learned about MMA.

Keith Larman
11-12-2012, 02:43 PM
What a waste of time. Nevermind.

Tom Verhoeven
11-12-2012, 04:01 PM
Chris,
I do not think you are trolling here - I think you have brought forward some points that deserve serious consideration.
It would be interesting to see a response by Mike.

One thing that I would like to point out is that the word jin as such does not just refer to skill or power in the martial arts. Someone who is cutting trees as a trade may require a jin from this that is specific for his trade. So a sailor would have a jin as a result of sailing, a swordsmith as a result of forging metal, and so on. A sailor might be just as strong as a swordsmith, but still would not have the jin to make a sword.

Tom

ChrisHein
11-12-2012, 04:12 PM
Hey Tom,
Thanks, I'm not trolling, I'm trying to get to the bottom of this stuff. I wish that were more apparent.

I think the way you are using Jin there is a good example of what I was talking about with specific abilities, unique to the sport. Like tennis players, having specific skills for tennis, or tennis jin.

So maybe my explanation of "jin demonstration" was a bad one. Maybe I should say "IP demonstrations", I don't know how to phrase it, but the idea that there is an ability to demonstrate these kinds of things. It's like with the CXW video, I agree he's got some real ability showing his stuff there, but that won't make him a better tennis player, and the skills that are universal to his training, and would help him with tennis, are sills that the tennis players are already aware of, and have good methods for practicing.

Tom Verhoeven
11-12-2012, 04:14 PM
Hi John,

Just out of interest, have you ever grabbed Kanetsuka Sensei? In my opinion he and Ikeda Sensei are doing basically the same thing (though Ikeda does actually explain what he is doing in ways that most of us can understand...).

Alex

Well, I did practice with Kanetsuka sensei. He used be known for his hard, even rough style of Aikido. It changed after his illness - the form of the technique did not change dramatically, it still looked like Yoshinkan Aikido, but his techniques felt different. I have never experienced Ikeda's Aikido - for me it felt more like Tamura sensei's Aikido.

Tom

phitruong
11-12-2012, 04:19 PM
I have never experienced Ikeda's Aikido - for me it felt more like Tamura sensei's Aikido.

Tom

if you have never experienced it, how do you kow what it felt like? or was that a typo?

mrlizard123
11-12-2012, 04:31 PM
What a waste of time. Nevermind.

Keith, you must have really good "athletics" because you read my mind; I don't know how you did that so I'm going to assume you picked it up playing basketball somewhere.

Tom Verhoeven
11-12-2012, 04:46 PM
if you have never experienced it, how do you kow what it felt like? or was that a typo?

I have never met Ikeda and therefore have no personal experience with Ikeda.

I did train in the dojo of Kanetsuka sensei in London and have felt his techniques. I cannot compare it with Ikeda - however, at the time I also practiced under Tamura sensei and Kanetsuka's Aikido felt similar as to Tamura's Aikido.

Tom

David Orange
11-12-2012, 05:10 PM
Hey Tom,
Thanks, I'm not trolling, I'm trying to get to the bottom of this stuff. I wish that were more apparent.

Chris, if you were sincerely trying to get to the bottom of this, you would go and meet some people who are well known (vetted) for having the power we are discussing.

You would NOT keep reading bits and pieces of stuff and then posting about how you already know it and can already do it when we can see from your videos that you don't know and you can't do.

Seriously, you're only making yourself look foolish by continuing to take that tack.

You will never get to the bottom of it and you will never understand how little you know until you meet and feel the power of some people as I and many others have mentioned over and over again:

Minoru Akuzawa
Rob John
Mike Sigman
Forrest Chang
Dan Harden

It has to be experienced.

David

ChrisHein
11-12-2012, 05:17 PM
David,
Working on that now, I understand where you are coming from.

David Orange
11-12-2012, 05:28 PM
David,
Working on that now, I understand where you are coming from.

Well, that's good to hear. I can't recount how vividly I dissed Mike Sigman six or seven years ago, and Rob John, too. I told them I could do what they were describing. The "six directions"? I said. That's just the six directions you have to balance to do anything, such as lifting weights or chopping wood. And that was true. But the training is not the same as chopping wood or lifting weights. It actually "tunes" the body to hypersensitivity to the six directions and the result goes far beyond anything I've seen from a weightlifter. And it was far more effective than what I was able to do even after years in Japan.

It is definitely not athletics and nothing in athletics approaches it.

Best wishes.

David

jss
11-12-2012, 05:33 PM
It's like with the CXW video, I agree he's got some real ability showing his stuff there, but that won't make him a better tennis player, and the skills that are universal to his training, and would help him with tennis, are sills that the tennis players are already aware of, and have good methods for practicing.
What I get from the above statement is that you believe there is only one model of human movement, that both CXW and world class tennis players operate within that model and seek to optimize movement within that model.
In my opinion that is not true. There are at least two models of human movement (using very broad strokes here): the modern Western physiology/sports model and the Eastern internal arts one. They are mutually exclusive. Optimizing movement in one model will yield results unattainable in the other and vice versa. Both result in some incredible feats for the untrained person.
You can think of these two models as two mountains. Walking up one of them (i.e. optimizing within that model) means you won't be walking up the other. And that's why people keep saying IP requires a fundamentally different way of movement: because it does.

ChrisHein
11-12-2012, 06:51 PM
What I get from the above statement is that you believe there is only one model of human movement, that both CXW and world class tennis players operate within that model and seek to optimize movement within that model.

Not quite, I do think there are many models. But there is only one Machine. Both CXW and world class tennis players use that same machine (the human body).


There are at least two models of human movement (using very broad strokes here): the modern Western physiology/sports model and the Eastern internal arts one. They are mutually exclusive. Optimizing movement in one model will yield results unattainable in the other and vice versa. Both result in some incredible feats for the untrained person.


I agree that these models describe things differently. Mutually exclusive, I don't agree with. In Mike's basic outline, even if there is more to it, both models agree on many points. I also disagree that there is a modern "Western physiology/sports model", I think that we are all sharing enough information (nations of the world) that we are getting pretty close to having a very similar model, within professional sports, everywhere in the world. I do agree that there is an Easter internal arts model, it's around a hundred or more years old (depending on who you think constructed that model). But I don't think the Chinese government is using that model to train it's olympic athletes. I think you would find the modern Chinese using a similar model to the one you would see in a modern Western sports facility. So I believe it's a "modern athletic model" and an "older Chinese internal model" we are comparing.


You can think of these two models as two mountains. Walking up one of them (i.e. optimizing within that model) means you won't be walking up the other. And that's why people keep saying IP requires a fundamentally different way of movement: because it does.

To me this different way of moving, would require a different machine, but we're all using pretty much the same one.

Thanks!

HL1978
11-12-2012, 08:17 PM
Chris,

Robert John, could probably comment more since I wasn't there, but I remember a kinesiology prof went to see Ark and was rather impressed. As I recall, he said something along the lines that no one would believe him in terms of what he witnessed as the conventional models of movement do not correspond to what Akuzawa sensei is doing. Now I don't recall this gentleman's name or what university he was affiliated it, but this would indicate to me, that this is a difference in terms of the conventional western model of movement and thus it is unlikely that high level athletes are doing what he is doing.

This is second hand of course, so make of it what you will.

john.burn
11-13-2012, 06:14 AM
Hi John,

Just out of interest, have you ever grabbed Kanetsuka Sensei? In my opinion he and Ikeda Sensei are doing basically the same thing (though Ikeda does actually explain what he is doing in ways that most of us can understand...).

Alex

Hi Alex,

Nope, not ever grabbed him (yet). He and my first teacher kind of fell out... You know how the rest goes! I should make the effort really...

Alex Megann
11-13-2012, 06:41 AM
Well, I did practice with Kanetsuka sensei. He used be known for his hard, even rough style of Aikido. It changed after his illness - the form of the technique did not change dramatically, it still looked like Yoshinkan Aikido, but his techniques felt different. I have never experienced Ikeda's Aikido - for me it felt more like Tamura sensei's Aikido.

Tom

Hi Tom,

Your comments are very interesting. Everyone remarked on the changes in KS's aikido when he became seriously ill in the mid-1980s (for those who don't know, he had an inoperable nasopharyngeal tumour) - he carried on teaching and practising even when he was shockingly emaciated and physically weak. At that time he was strongly influenced by his recent close contact with Sekiya Sensei and also from the visits of Yamaguchi Sensei to the UK at the time, both of whom I think helped him to develop a substantially softer and much less effortful aikido.

All the same, I have come to the conclusion over the years that his aikido is still largely based on that of his first teacher, Gozo Shioda. Note that I don't say "Yoshinkan", since the Yoshinkai syllabus to me looks rather more rigid and codified than what I see Shioda teaching and demonstrating himself. I haven't experienced any senior Yoshinkai teachers in person, but I think Kanetsuka's emphasis on training in postural and structural stability, his ultra-compact body movement and his direct and instant connection with uke are much more similar to what I see in Shioda (and also as I have heard it described by Robert Mustard and others) than in most teachers in the Yamaguchi line.

Having said that, though, and as I mentioned earlier, there is a perhaps surprising convergence with Ikeda Sensei's aikido. For instance, there is a nice clip of the latter here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K3a9Z5DZnc), which demonstration I have seen Kanetsuka Sensei do many times, and which I understand is intended to illustrate connection without tai-sabaki (to get back to the topic of this thread).

Alex

Alex Megann
11-13-2012, 06:45 AM
Hi Alex,

Nope, not ever grabbed him (yet). He and my first teacher kind of fell out... You know how the rest goes! I should make the effort really...

I understand completely... :)

Alex

jss
11-13-2012, 11:46 AM
Not quite, I do think there are many models. But there is only one Machine. Both CXW and world class tennis players use that same machine (the human body).
Sure, but they use that same machine in a fundamentally different way. Then again, as a consequence their machine is conditioned in a different way, resulting in (arguably) two different machines. ;)

I agree that these models describe things differently. Mutually exclusive, I don't agree with. In Mike's basic outline, even if there is more to it, both models agree on many points.
The fact that both models seem to agree on many points, does not mean they are the same or not mutually exclusive.
Moreover, Mike has directly said that what he does is a different form of movement. So I don't think you should use his blog to argue against a point he actually agrees with. That just doesn't make sense.

I also disagree that there is a modern "Western physiology/sports model", I think that we are all sharing enough information (nations of the world) that we are getting pretty close to having a very similar model, within professional sports, everywhere in the world. I do agree that there is an Easter internal arts model, it's around a hundred or more years old (depending on who you think constructed that model). But I don't think the Chinese government is using that model to train it's olympic athletes. I think you would find the modern Chinese using a similar model to the one you would see in a modern Western sports facility. So I believe it's a "modern athletic model" and an "older Chinese internal model" we are comparing.
Cool, you call 'm what you like. The names have nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make: the older Chinese internal arts model is different from and mutually exclusive to the modern athletic one. And yes, both form of movements are accessible from the same machine. The human body is a complex enough system (especially when taking skill acquisition and conditioning into account) to allow that.

Nicholas Eschenbruch
11-13-2012, 12:44 PM
I suggest the metaphor of the body as a "machine" may not be helpful here. I would even say it's quite limiting to the discussion. I can see no compelling reason to use it, especially since a lot of the stuff that is being discussed is about categories like "intent".

ChrisHein
11-13-2012, 03:12 PM
the two plans are mutually exclusive; implementing one will automatically rule out the other

They are not mutually exclusive, because they share many of the same points. As Mike outlined.
The body is the same, they are both models describing/suggesting proper body use.

Nicholas,
If we are talking about how the body physically works, we are talking about the body as a machine.
There are also aspects of Mental and Spiritual use, but as far as I can see we don't need to get into those just yet, because we can't even agree on body use yet.

jss
11-13-2012, 03:54 PM
They are not mutually exclusive, because they share many of the same points. As Mike outlined.
The body is the same, they are both models describing/suggesting proper body use.
Repeating what you said earlier and ignoring what I said (especially the part about Mike's position on this), does not make your point any more convincing. I am done here. Good luck with the rest of your investigation.

Rob Watson
11-13-2012, 06:49 PM
If we are talking about how the body physically works, we are talking about the body as a machine.
There are also aspects of Mental and Spiritual use, but as far as I can see we don't need to get into those just yet, because we can't even agree on body use yet.

I get hung up on this too. Recently I changed my thinking on this when I was actually able to manifest intent to move uke. With no discernable movement on my part and just using intent uke is driven down into the mat. How's the model explain that?

By no discernable movement I mean I did not move, I did not mean to move and I had no intention of moving and I'm pretty sure if viewed from a third party they would not have seen me move. Yet uke is driven down just by 'thought'.

Anybody that tried to explain it to me I'd have laughed (and did) them off as full of BS, hypnotized, colluding or brainwashed, etc.

Really, no way for me to explain it without everyone calling BS and blowing me off (unless you are one of 'them'). Even video would result in the BS flag being thrown.

Only way was for me to be the uke and feel it done to me ... then do some directed body work and then be able to do it myself. Granted I'm not very good and I'm pretty sure I'm not quite able to explain it hands on (as in teach one how to do it) but progress is happening. Some body work and basic conditioning is required as a prerequisite except for the most rudimentry manifestations.

When I'm able to pull it off with 50% success rate I'll look you (Chris Hein) up next time I'm in Fresno (any excuse to break away from the mother in law).

I think this is what Mike Sigman would call a mind directed manipulation of a ground path (jin) - maybe he would not call it that. From what little I know of Mike Sigman I'd say there is more to it than that (Mike always says that anyway). I'm happy to be wrong ... I usually am. I do like whole bananas.

RonRagusa
11-13-2012, 09:09 PM
I get hung up on this too. Recently I changed my thinking on this when I was actually able to manifest intent to move uke. With no discernable movement on my part and just using intent uke is driven down into the mat. How's the model explain that?

By no discernable movement I mean I did not move, I did not mean to move and I had no intention of moving and I'm pretty sure if viewed from a third party they would not have seen me move. Yet uke is driven down just by 'thought'.

What was uke doing while you were manifesting your intent? Was he just standing there passively or giving you the energy of his attack? What was he attacking with; grab or blow? Have you tried the same experiment with an inanimate object?

Ron

Rob Watson
11-13-2012, 09:44 PM
What was uke doing while you were manifesting your intent? Was he just standing there passively or giving you the energy of his attack? What was he attacking with; grab or blow? Have you tried the same experiment with an inanimate object?

Ron

Fist pressing into guts. Works also on a broom wedged into guts (at least I can replicate the feeling - broom handle does not actually go anywhere). I use a push broom with the head in my guts and the handle wedged against a stop on the floor. The wooden handled push broom flexes - the metal one not much except the feeling is there.

Tom Verhoeven
11-13-2012, 09:46 PM
Hi Tom,

Your comments are very interesting. Everyone remarked on the changes in KS's aikido when he became seriously ill in the mid-1980s (for those who don't know, he had an inoperable nasopharyngeal tumour) - he carried on teaching and practising even when he was shockingly emaciated and physically weak. At that time he was strongly influenced by his recent close contact with Sekiya Sensei and also from the visits of Yamaguchi Sensei to the UK at the time, both of whom I think helped him to develop a substantially softer and much less effortful aikido.

All the same, I have come to the conclusion over the years that his aikido is still largely based on that of his first teacher, Gozo Shioda. Note that I don't say "Yoshinkan", since the Yoshinkai syllabus to me looks rather more rigid and codified than what I see Shioda teaching and demonstrating himself. I haven't experienced any senior Yoshinkai teachers in person, but I think Kanetsuka's emphasis on training in postural and structural stability, his ultra-compact body movement and his direct and instant connection with uke are much more similar to what I see in Shioda (and also as I have heard it described by Robert Mustard and others) than in most teachers in the Yamaguchi line.

Having said that, though, and as I mentioned earlier, there is a perhaps surprising convergence with Ikeda Sensei's aikido. For instance, there is a nice clip of the latter here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K3a9Z5DZnc), which demonstration I have seen Kanetsuka Sensei do many times, and which I understand is intended to illustrate connection without tai-sabaki (to get back to the topic of this thread).

Alex
Bonjour Alex,
Thanks for the input - I was not aware of any contact between Kanetsuka's sensei en Yamaguchi sensei. I think you have a good point here; When I saw him do kihon waza it often did have the same form as the Yoshinkan syllabus, but it was by no means as rigid. I think you are right in that the emphasis on structural stability, correct posture and instant connection with uke must have come directly from Shioda sensei. There is a difference between Shioda sensei and the curriculum that his students follow. I think Kanetsuka sensei is more close to Shioda sensei's personal way.
Thank you very much for the clip - I can see where you must have experienced similarities. Had a look at some other clips of Ikeda sensei as well and they made me wish I had had the opportunity to feel his techniques and method myself.
All the best,

Tom

ChrisHein
11-13-2012, 11:18 PM
When I'm able to pull it off with 50% success rate I'll look you (Chris Hein) up next time I'm in Fresno (any excuse to break away from the mother in law).

HA! I'm happy to be your mother-in-law escape!! You're welcome anytime! HA!

sakumeikan
11-14-2012, 01:54 AM
Chris,
I do not think you are trolling here - I think you have brought forward some points that deserve serious consideration.
It would be interesting to see a response by Mike.

One thing that I would like to point out is that the word jin as such does not just refer to skill or power in the martial arts. Someone who is cutting trees as a trade may require a jin from this that is specific for his trade. So a sailor would have a jin as a result of sailing, a swordsmith as a result of forging metal, and so on. A sailor might be just as strong as a swordsmith, but still would not have the jin to make a sword.

Tom

Tom,
I will settle for a Gin,with a large tonic water , ice and a piece of lemon, thank you very much. Joe

Alex Megann
11-14-2012, 03:32 AM
Thank you very much for the clip - I can see where you must have experienced similarities. Had a look at some other clips of Ikeda sensei as well and they made me wish I had had the opportunity to feel his techniques and method myself.
Tom

Hi Tom,

I don't know if you are aware of it, but Ikeda Sensei is coming to England (Coventry) in April next year. I can give you more details if you are interested.

Alex

Alex Megann
11-14-2012, 06:31 AM
Bonjour Alex,
Thank you very much for the clip - I can see where you must have experienced similarities. Had a look at some other clips of Ikeda sensei as well and they made me wish I had had the opportunity to feel his techniques and method myself.
All the best,

Tom

For your interest, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91HDYF6n7hw) is a recent clip of Kanetsuka Sensei explaining (in typically idiosyncratic fashion) his understanding of musubi and connection using a student's obi.

The sound quality is not good, but it does come with a simultaneous translation into Polish, in case that helps anyone... :)

Alex

Tom Verhoeven
11-14-2012, 07:22 AM
For your interest, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91HDYF6n7hw) is a recent clip of Kanetsuka Sensei explaining (in typically idiosyncratic fashion) his understanding of musubi and connection using a student's obi.

The sound quality is not good, but it does come with a simultaneous translation into Polish, in case that helps anyone... :)

Alex
Hi Alex,
Thank you for the clip. Kanetsuka sensei very fit here. And teaches in a totally different way from the first time I saw him. Could not really hear what he was explaining - and the Polish translation did not really help
I am familiar with the principle of musubi - put an article about this together with some photo's on my weblog earlier this year; http://aikido-auvergne-kumano.blogspot.fr/2012/04/musubi.html
but I am not sure if everyone who parctices Aikido thinks of musubi when they are talking about connection. From what I have read about IP/IS I get the impression that the proponents of IP/IS do mean something else by connection?
I think Kanetsuka sensei is here specifically explaining musubi.

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
11-14-2012, 07:25 AM
Tom,
I will settle for a Gin,with a large tonic water , ice and a piece of lemon, thank you very much. Joe
Hello Joe,
Would Dutch Jinever do?

Have not seen you on this forum for a while. Everything fine?

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
11-14-2012, 07:29 AM
Hi Tom,

I don't know if you are aware of it, but Ikeda Sensei is coming to England (Coventry) in April next year. I can give you more details if you are interested.

Alex

Hi Alex,

Yes, would love to get the details and will mention the seminar to a few others as well.

Health permitting I just might cross the Channel.

Tom

phitruong
11-14-2012, 07:45 AM
Hi Alex,

Yes, would love to get the details and will mention the seminar to a few others as well.

Health permitting I just might cross the Channel.

Tom

he travels to France once a year. or doing European tour too. this was earlier this year http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyjBZyW_Tvw&feature=related

Tom Verhoeven
11-14-2012, 10:08 AM
he travels to France once a year. or doing European tour too. this was earlier this year http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyjBZyW_Tvw&feature=related

Thanks! I was not aware of this - but will definitely look into it to see when and where !

Tom

SteveTrinkle
11-15-2012, 07:49 AM
Hmmmm, I agree entirely with what everyone else has said to you.

I hold Ikeda sensei as the gold standard for being able to use and apply IS in an Aikido framework - I have NEVER felt any other Aikido teacher with the skill set he has and definitely no Aikido student.

If it was normal, everyone would be able to do it. They can't. Why not? It's not normal that's why.

You seem to have a real issue trying to meet any of these people, I'm assuming you've at least made the effort to train with the one Aikido teacher that everyone seems to agree has the goods?IrecommendBill Gleason Sensei to you and a couple of his senior students!Best!,Steve

john.burn
11-15-2012, 09:03 AM
IrecommendBill Gleason Sensei to you and a couple of his senior students!Best!,Steve

I'm more interested in what Mike Sigman has to say and what he can do to be honest with you. His stuff makes the most sense to me.

In terms of Aikido, sorry but no one I've met (and I've met a good few people now) can do what Ikeda sensei does so I'll be sticking with him thanks - I don't see the point in not going straight to the source, he's really very good at explaining what he does now.

HL1978
11-15-2012, 09:53 AM
Akuzawa Sensei is actually in france as we speak right now. He is usually there 2x a year with occasional trips to the Netherlands as well.

john.burn
11-15-2012, 10:27 AM
Akuzawa Sensei is actually in france as we speak right now. He is usually there 2x a year with occasional trips to the Netherlands as well.

Hi Hunter,

Stupid question... but what's the level of the seminar Akuzawa sensei teaches in France? And does he speak English on Seminar's in France?

He's definitely on my list of non-Aikido guys to meet.

HL1978
11-15-2012, 01:47 PM
Hi Hunter,

Stupid question... but what's the level of the seminar Akuzawa sensei teaches in France? And does he speak English on Seminar's in France?

He's definitely on my list of non-Aikido guys to meet.

Based on what I have seen in the past for seminar announcements, I think he has two separate session types, a more generic open class and a more teacher/experienced class. http://laquetedekiaz.com/2012/02/16/aunkai-tour-2012/ usually has info on upcoming seminars or you can check out the various aunkai facebook pages. I think some of the seminars have had both english and french translators, but if some of the Aunkai students show up, you may have some english speakers. For example, Rob speaks native english, and Manabu and Miyagawa both have pretty good conversational english. So even if they aren't acting as translators, they can help you out.

Howard Popkin
11-15-2012, 03:23 PM
Chris:

So here's to hoping Howard Popkin makes it out to the left coast one of these days...



May - California
June - Portland
July - California
August - California

:)

Howard Popkin
11-15-2012, 03:26 PM
Working on the other coast too, England :)

Will keep you posted !

Janet Rosen
11-15-2012, 03:36 PM
May - California
June - Portland
July - California
August - California

:)

OOOOH........going to have to carve some dates out and save up sheckels....:)

ChrisHein
11-15-2012, 04:42 PM
Hey Howard,
Where are your California seminars at?

jlb7289
11-15-2012, 05:11 PM
Chris Hein's thesis is similar to what a yangstyle taijiquan instructor (not master) said to me years ago, he said that taiji masters moved in an optimal way and that great baseball players, great athletes, moved the same way. Internal training was *just* learning to move very efficiently.

Even back then I knew enough, had seen enough, to realize that was bunk. I knew that teacher didn't have anything to share with me, and he would never have anything to share with me.

If there was as much overlap between the two ways of moving, external and internal, then we'd have a LOT more internal martial arts masters than we do. It would mean that almost everybody who trains hard in an external art, especially a soft art, for enough time will have and be able to show internal power. But that isn't the case. What Hein needs to do is explain why we don't have many folks who can demonstrate internal power if training it is so much like training external arts.

One last comment, on Mike's blog. Reading what he is writing and thinking you get it is different from actually getting it, thus the frequent admonition that one should get one's a** out to see folks who can actually show you.

JLB

ChrisHein
11-15-2012, 05:18 PM
Well, I would say that there are lot's of people capable of demonstrating these things. I've offered to do that myself, but I don't see many criteria being presented to look at.

jlb7289
11-15-2012, 05:36 PM
Well, I would say that there are lot's of people capable of demonstrating these things. I've offered to do that myself, but I don't see many criteria being presented to look at.

Sigman's teacher test is a good start...and it's basic...being able to ground a decent push without locking up your shoulder, in other words, with a pretty relaxed frame, is also basic. And we haven't even gotten to seeing whether one's Dantien drives one's movement, a key req for internal arts.

And there aren't lots of people demonstrating these things. There just aren't.

JLB

sakumeikan
11-16-2012, 11:31 AM
Hello Joe,
Would Dutch Jinever do?

Have not seen you on this forum for a while. Everything fine?

Tom

Hi Tom.
Hello ,

I have not really seen any articles recently which tickle my fancy.As far as my activities iin Aikido I am just doing my usual couple of classes a week.Hope to attreend a course in the North East , near Durham with Mike Flynn 6th Dan Shihan and Paul goatmn 5th Dan Shidoin.on Dec !st.A basic weapons course.Should be good.
Last course I attended for a couple of days was in Worcester with Chiba Sensei.Hope you are well, Cheers,I will be only too happy to have a Gin.[Dutch or otherwise]
t

ChrisHein
11-16-2012, 02:30 PM
Sigman's teacher test is a good start...and it's basic...being able to ground a decent push without locking up your shoulder, in other words, with a pretty relaxed frame, is also basic. And we haven't even gotten to seeing whether one's Dantien drives one's movement, a key req for internal arts.

And there aren't lots of people demonstrating these things. There just aren't.

JLB

Hey Joseph,

Do you know if there is video of people doing the "teacher test" with correct examples? A video of Mike Sigman would of course work best, but I would love to watch video of any teacher who passes the test.

I think things like this that we can all objectively look at, hear explanations as to why it was or wasn't what we are describing. Thanks!

MM
11-16-2012, 06:25 PM
Hey Joseph,

Do you know if there is video of people doing the "teacher test" with correct examples? A video of Mike Sigman would of course work best, but I would love to watch video of any teacher who passes the test.

I think things like this that we can all objectively look at, hear explanations as to why it was or wasn't what we are describing. Thanks!

Chris,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=6zZDtCZVURY

Liu Chengde. Notice how he has one hand up and one hand down? Why? Why do poses of Ueshiba look the same? Takeda, too. What's going on internally? What core internal components are at work here?

ChrisHein
11-16-2012, 06:36 PM
Hello Mark.
I didn't see what Mike was describing in his "teacher test" in that video. If I were to describe what I see in this video, using Aikido speak as our reference, I would say it's an example of a student taking ukemi for his teacher. Would you agree, or not?

jlb7289
11-17-2012, 03:08 AM
Hey Joseph,

Do you know if there is video of people doing the "teacher test" with correct examples? A video of Mike Sigman would of course work best, but I would love to watch video of any teacher who passes the test.

I think things like this that we can all objectively look at, hear explanations as to why it was or wasn't what we are describing. Thanks!

Umm,

I'm not talking about WATCHING video. I'm talking about GOING to see high level teachers. Jeez. If you haven't experienced high level internal arts masters up close then the distinction between what they do and what others do on freakin' Youtube is harder to understand.

Once you have, things get easier. And then you can ask better questions and see more gradations...here's an example, I see what Akuzawa is doing (I've attended three of his workshops, so this is not armchair-observation) as involving some jin and 'suit', but not full-blown internal power or six harmonies movement or what-have-you, and he himself didn't (at least not when I asked him about it three years ago) claim to drive his movement with the Dantien (although he was surely doing so at some points with his downpower stuff, as in shiko...pretty reminiscent of baji). But that IS a defining characteristic of internal power. So Akuzawa has part of the picture, not all.

That's not criticism, it's observation. Another observation...I've seen folks here put I Li Quan with the neijia, I don't get that. I don't know anyone who is serious about internal arts who claims I Li Quan falls clearly into that category. Now, I've not seen that art up close, I've only watched Youtube clips, but given what I have been exposed to, it looks like Sam Chin has *some* jin, but the differenced between him and, well, prominent taiji, bagua, and xingyi practitioners is obvious. Is he a good martial artist? Yeah, he seems to be. But should I be looking to him to understand what internal power is? No, I don't think so. Same thing with Systema. OK, it's soft. That doesn't make it internal. Xingyi is an internal art and it ain't soft.

Carsten Möllering
11-17-2012, 03:45 AM
If you haven't experienced high level internal arts masters up close then the distinction between what they do and what others do on freakin' Youtube is harder to understand.
Once you have, things get easier.

I see what Akuzawa is doing (I've attended three of his workshops, ...
Some tme ago I've linked a youtube-video of Bill Gleason in the German forum where I'm very active and people know me.
I've linked it because I was excited seing someone doing things "on youtube" that I got to know during a certain seminar. I saw Gleason do what we were doing in the seminar. I meant do understand what he was teaching. Even if the sound of the video wasn't very good.
I hope, I am not totally wrong with my expertise.

The people at the forum said "This is what we are allready doing." And they explained me what was doing to see in the video. From their view. Without having felt it. And without having been taugth it orally.
I understood their explanations very well: I had done what they described during my own practice. It was extactly what I knew before attending the seminar where I did myself what is to see in the video.
The difference simply had to felt. To be felt by my own body, in my own body.

We only see, what we know. So simpel.

Keith Larman
11-17-2012, 08:42 AM
May - California
June - Portland
July - California
August - California

:)

Hey, cool, good to know. Where in California and do you have any approximate dates yet? Still on the bucket list for me... ;)

Keith

yugen
11-17-2012, 02:47 PM
...I've seen folks here put I Li Quan with the neijia, I don't get that. I don't know anyone who is serious about internal arts who claims I Li Quan falls clearly into that category. Now, I've not seen that art up close, I've only watched Youtube clips, but given what I have been exposed to, it looks like Sam Chin has *some* jin, but the differenced between him and, well, prominent taiji, bagua, and xingyi practitioners is obvious. Is he a good martial artist? Yeah, he seems to be. But should I be looking to him to understand what internal power is? No, I don't think so.

I shouldn't gossip cause I have no first hand knowledge, but I've heard many 'prominent' taiji, bagua, xingyi practitioners suddenly have their old injuries flare up and need to sit down if Sam asks to touch hands with them.

My abilities in IP/IS are not much to boast about, so my opinion doesn't matter much. I've practiced Chen style taijiquan before. Now I practice ILC and have been to Dan's seminars, so far it's all felt pretty similar to me. The training approach is definitely different. I think if you were completely new to martial arts, then I feel Sam's system is designed to give you the ability to make it streetable quicker. But the whole system from the basic exercises to spinning/sticking hands to 21 Form and Butterfly Form are all neijia orientated. There are quite a few accomplished martial artist's from yang style, chen style taiji, xing yi, etc who've come to ILC and said they've finally got 'it' after meeting Sam. Tournaments such as ICMAC seek Sam for judging and ILC participation. For what its worth...

ashe
11-17-2012, 03:17 PM
I've seen folks here put I Li Quan with the neijia, I don't get that. I don't know anyone who is serious about internal arts who claims I Li Quan falls clearly into that category. Now, I've not seen that art up close, I've only watched Youtube clips, but given what I have been exposed to, it looks like Sam Chin has *some* jin, but the differenced between him and, well, prominent taiji, bagua, and xingyi practitioners is obvious. Is he a good martial artist? Yeah, he seems to be. But should I be looking to him to understand what internal power is? No, I don't think so.

lol. you don't even have enough attention to detail to use the correct spelling, yet we're expected to trust your observation on what is or is not internal.

Cady Goldfield
11-17-2012, 03:30 PM
lol. you don't even have enough attention to detail to use the correct spelling, yet we're expected to trust your observation on what is or is not internal.

Hi ashe,
It looks like "The Martial Art of Awareness" could help some people in that respect! ;)

Chris Li
11-17-2012, 03:35 PM
Another observation...I've seen folks here put I Li Quan with the neijia, I don't get that.

Well, I get it - but that's just my opinion... :)

Best,

Chris

Alfonso
11-17-2012, 03:36 PM
What a thread topic, try reading all of these articles:

http://mikesigman.blogspot.com/

The parameters for internal strength are discussed there much better than where this is all headed. Anyone with a teacher and a school is going to be miffed by not being acknowledged a having whatever it is. But these blogs have the reasoning laid out, and there is an unavoidable logic to the full body skill.

Dantien driven movement sounds nice and understandable but its a really extreme thing, and people moving like that have a very distinctive quality of movement and similarity of motions.

I have really seen no evidence at all that O Sensei did this, or that DR does it, or that anyone in Aikido does this.

But it is not the only way of using internal strength attributes; there are other ways. What is best? Ask Conan.

Lorel Latorilla
11-17-2012, 05:54 PM
You know these "hes not internal" type of wars and such can be stopped if people just shut up, be humble, and meet other people to see how truly "1nt3rn4l" they are. Anyone with me?

Tengu859
11-17-2012, 06:09 PM
You know these "hes not internal" type of wars and such can be stopped if people just shut up, be humble, and meet other people to see how truly "1nt3rn4l" they are. Anyone with me?

10-04...!!! It's hard for people not to see their teachers as gods...I've yet to meet the perfect martial arist. I have meet and trained with awsome budo men, but none are perfect. Even Ueshiba tripped on his hakama...!!! :0) These men still serve as my motivation.

All The Best,

ChrisW

Alfonso
11-17-2012, 06:45 PM
Joseph Brown (I've met him too *gasp* ) has had quite a bit of exposure to the real deal. His stuff is Xing Yi pardon the spelling, I think it's rather unfortunate that yet another person trying to help here is being dismissed summarily. So you guys, have you met Joseph Brown, have you felt him? Can you therefore then assume he has no reason to say what he said?

Yeah, by all means go out and meet people.

DH
11-17-2012, 06:51 PM
You know these "hes not internal" type of wars and such can be stopped if people just shut up, be humble, and meet other people to see how truly "1nt3rn4l" they are. Anyone with me?
Yes.
I have er...argued with these amateur/experts, and then took their advice and then crossed hands with acknowledged big dog Chinese experts in open rooms.
I will only say that after reading blogs and posts and then seeing some people actually move....I know who's opinions are worth listening to and who are nothing more than just self acknowledged gad flies.
You cannot pretend dantian. Stop listening to internet wannabes and have the real experts test you.

Alfonso
11-17-2012, 07:00 PM
Yes.
I have er...argued with these amateur/experts, and then took their advice and then crossed hands with acknowledged big dog Chinese experts in open rooms.
I will only say that after reading blogs and posts and then seeing some people actually move....I know who's opinions are worth listening to and who are nothing more than just self acknowledged gad flies.
You cannot pretend dantian. Stop listening to internet wannabes and have the real experts test you.

Dan AFAIK you havent met Sigman, and your dislike for him is quite legendary by now. I have met you and you have held my hands and taught me. And you had nothing bad to say about me either; in fact you praised me a lot. Internet wannabe? Why so harsh?

BTW, I would encourage all of you to meet Dan Harden too; and regardless of how important you consider your teachers to be The Top dogs of internal arts, the fact is that all of this is very very rare, and if it isnt neijia , it doesnt mean it doesnt use neijin, and that it stands head and shoulders above Aikido as usual.

And BTW I'm no teacher, no expert nor do I have a dog in this race. I've gone all blabbermouth and started spewing online because it might help other of you who are sick and tired of the same old same old we have it and you dont dialogue in here. It's time to raise the bar for all of us.

Cady Goldfield
11-17-2012, 11:34 PM
Joseph Brown (I've met him too *gasp* ) has had quite a bit of exposure to the real deal. His stuff is Xing Yi pardon the spelling, I think it's rather unfortunate that yet another person trying to help here is being dismissed summarily. So you guys, have you met Joseph Brown, have you felt him? Can you therefore then assume he has no reason to say what he said?

Yeah, by all means go out and meet people.

Yet Joseph Brown seems to have dismissed summarily Sam Chin and made presumptions about his skills without having met him, based on a few YouTube videos viewed out of context with his overall system. I have met and felt Sam Chin, and I have also had "quite a bit of exposure to the real deal" and have trained in IP for many years, and have a different opinion of Sam Chin than does Joseph Brown, who has not met and felt him.

Alfonso
11-18-2012, 12:43 AM
Yet Joseph Brown seems to have dismissed summarily Sam Chin and made presumptions about his skills without having met him, based on a few YouTube videos viewed out of context with his overall system. I have met and felt Sam Chin, and I have also had "quite a bit of exposure to the real deal" and have trained in IP for many years, and have a different opinion of Sam Chin than does Joseph Brown, who has not met and felt him.

I'm glad that you have had exposure to the real deal; and have trained in IP for many years. You have a diferent opinion of Sam Chin than JB, well, not sure you are talking about the same thing at all, I dont think Joseph said anything about Sam being a fake, not having internal power, or being a bad martial artist.

I dont think Joseph was dismissing Sam Chin. I think he just was pointing out that the "neijia" are not a grouping of martial arts that use internal strength. And I think he would also say that Aikido isnt one of those either.

Lorel Latorilla
11-18-2012, 01:05 AM
10-04...!!! It's hard for people not to see their teachers as gods...I've yet to meet the perfect martial arist. I have meet and trained with awsome budo men, but none are perfect. Even Ueshiba tripped on his hakama...!!! :0) These men still serve as my motivation.

All The Best,

ChrisW

Honestly, my goal is to find the most efficient way to move in a CQC situation or even in a military capacity where I am required to run, climb, march, crawl and carry heavy bags with a mind and body that's properly relaxed as possible. Also being that I am small, if I ever do get into a confrontation, it would be dangerous for me to get into a contest of strength with someone (as it is more likely they will overpower) me. For this reason, I am studying stuff like "aiki" (also love how some of "we do 1nt3rn4l" folks talk about what they are doing is aiki in the face of people who have studied with Roppokai, Kodokai, or even Sagawa peeps and are vetted by many people and then have the gall to say what these people are doing is not "int3rn4l") and kuzushi techniques (rather, I am studying ways to prepare a body that gives birth to aiki techniques) to give me a strategic advantage over my opponent. I know that the usual (read: "external") way of doing things (weight lifting, vector changing jujutsu stuff, etc.) will not get me to that point.

Personally, if someone claims to teach things that will help me to my goals and are vetted by all sorts of people, then I will shut my mouth until I've touched hands with them and only then make a judgment, even if some people are claiming this person is not doing "the 1nt3rn4l". Reason being is thatI put all the goals I stated under the larger goal of "bodyskill" or "movement" and not necessarily "IP/IS". If a person's training methodology will help me reach those larger goals and will help me navigate around the truth of movement/bodyskill then it's all good even if people are sticklers and are discrediting the stuff as "oooh, not internal" or "oooooh, not pure internal". Who gives a **** really? At the worst, some people are probably using different language to describe what they are doing and are possibly doing similar things as pure "1nt3rn4l" peeps and maybe even better than those purported pure internal peeps! For me, work with I have (my only reference for this stuff is Aunkai, Rob, Daito-ryu Roppokai, and Systema..althogh people will argue that Systema is useless for this), train my ass off and if someone doesn't speak the same language I do, I keep it humble and don't get into a silly ass terminology war online, and wait for the opportunity to train with that person. And if they don't think what I am doing is "internal", that's cool too. I am aiming for "bodskill", not "IP".

I don't know..I guess I like it to keep it simple?

Lorel Latorilla
11-18-2012, 01:21 AM
Joseph Brown (I've met him too *gasp* ) has had quite a bit of exposure to the real deal. His stuff is Xing Yi pardon the spelling, I think it's rather unfortunate that yet another person trying to help here is being dismissed summarily. So you guys, have you met Joseph Brown, have you felt him? Can you therefore then assume he has no reason to say what he said?

Yeah, by all means go out and meet people.

I would love to meet Joseph Brown, if he is doing any seminars or anything like that in Japan, I would pay if he can help me reach my goals in bodyskill. I mean..if he is really that good. But if Sam Chin or Dan or Ark (all guys who some people say are not doing pure internal) can show me a method to help me reach my above-stated goals in the most efficient manner and can demonstrate those skills in a very high level (and people will say that they do possess those skills in spades), then I will study their methods even if what they do is not classified as "pure neijia" or "pure internal" as some people say.

I guess we are talking at cross-purposes here. In short, if you want to learn a neijia with someone who demonstrates the high potential of the art..go study with CXW or whatever. But if you want to study pure efficient movement like I do, then studying with Sam Chin or Dan or Ark will be good enough for me.

Alfonso
11-18-2012, 01:31 AM
I would love to meet Joseph Brown, if he is doing any seminars or anything like that in Japan, I would pay if he can help me reach my goals in bodyskill. I mean..if he is really that good. But if Sam Chin or Dan or Ark (all guys who some people say are not doing pure internal) can show me a method to help me reach my above-stated goals in the most efficient manner and can demonstrate those skills in a very high level (and people will say that they do possess those skills in spades), then I will study their methods even if what they do is not classified as "pure neijia" or "pure internal" as some people say.

I guess we are talking at cross-purposes here. In short, if you want to learn a neijia with someone who demonstrates the high potential of the art..go study with CXW or whatever. But if you want to study pure efficient movement like I do, then studying with Sam Chin or Dan or Ark will be good enough for me.

That's cool. I have met Rob too, I dont see him chiming in to say anything about him and Akuzawa sensei being "pure internal" or even being the slightest insecure about this. And yeah, i think all of the above mentioned are great martial artists and fine teachers.

Its like if you're a photographer or a programmer or some other kind of professional, you dont go and say all authors in the field are the same, and you dont say I will only read from this author and no one else. And you certainly wouldnt settle to study from one book alone, and never invest in your learning from as many sources as you can. Is this a competition for exclusive teaching rights in some way? Why?

DH
11-18-2012, 02:24 AM
Dan AFAIK you havent met Sigman, and your dislike for him is quite legendary by now. I have met you and you have held my hands and taught me. And you had nothing bad to say about me either; in fact you praised me a lot. Internet wannabe? Why so harsh?

BTW, I would encourage all of you to meet Dan Harden too; and regardless of how important you consider your teachers to be The Top dogs of internal arts, the fact is that all of this is very very rare, and if it isnt neijia , it doesnt mean it doesnt use neijin, and that it stands head and shoulders above Aikido as usual.

And BTW I'm no teacher, no expert nor do I have a dog in this race. I've gone all blabbermouth and started spewing online because it might help other of you who are sick and tired of the same old same old we have it and you dont dialogue in here. It's time to raise the bar for all of us.

Alfonso
I wasn't referring to you at all in my post.
I think it's best to get hands-on with top ICMA guys and see what they can or cannot do...to you. Then consider the outcome-and their assessments.
There's been too much BS by internet gadflies.

jlb7289
11-18-2012, 09:32 AM
I would love to meet Joseph Brown, if he is doing any seminars or anything like that in Japan, I would pay if he can help me reach my goals in bodyskill. I mean..if he is really that good. But if Sam Chin or Dan or Ark (all guys who some people say are not doing pure internal) can show me a method to help me reach my above-stated goals in the most efficient manner and can demonstrate those skills in a very high level (and people will say that they do possess those skills in spades), then I will study their methods even if what they do is not classified as "pure neijia" or "pure internal" as some people say.

I guess we are talking at cross-purposes here. In short, if you want to learn a neijia with someone who demonstrates the high potential of the art..go study with CXW or whatever. But if you want to study pure efficient movement like I do, then studying with Sam Chin or Dan or Ark will be good enough for me.

Lorel, I doubt I have anything to teach you, I'm not that good. I'm an amateur. But I make the same distinction you do...there is a difference between neijia masters like CXW, Chen Bing, Li Tai Liang, Chen You Ze, Chen Qinghzhou, and Chen Bing, for example, and other martial artists who may be very efficient and powerful but are NOT neijia masters or practitioners.

Ark is a very powerful martial artist (I've felt him), Chin may be (have only seen Youtube clips). Dan Harden? Haven't seen him, haven't felt him, have only read him over the years and not been able to make ANY sense of the many different things he has said and claimed. So I have no opinion. But let's say he's powerful. So that makes him internal? Really?

Ashe, I do apologize for mis-spelling the name of your art, I was typing off the top of my head, but let's get it straight, your disdain has less to do with the spelling error and more to do with your taking offense at my assertion that Chin, and his art, are not internal. I don't understand. Wing Chun is a great martial art, so is shotokan, so is kali escrima. They aren't internal martial arts. Do you think wing chun, shotokan, or kali escrima masters would be offended by their arts being described as external? Being external is an insult now? Really?

The neijia family of arts are united by some very specific things, a unique style of movement, Dantien-centered movement. Sigman is doing a service by laying out a detailed argument describing what those arts are about and what jin and qi mean FOR THOSE ARTS. Since I am interested in learning those arts, I focus on them and not on distractions.
JLB

Cady Goldfield
11-18-2012, 10:34 AM
That you could read Dan Harden's posts "over the years and not been able to make ANY sense of the many different things he has said and claimed..." speaks volumes about what you comprehend and consider to be "internal" or not. Maybe, once again, people here are using the same terms to define very different things. You can't know until you go hands-on. Please just go out and touch hands cordially with these people --- Dan Harden, Sam Chin, et al. You already seem to be forming opinions despite your protestations to the contrary.

"Let's say he's powerful. I'll go feel him and see if that power is coming from internal methods. Really."

There. Fixed.

Lorel, I doubt I have anything to teach you, I'm not that good. I'm an amateur. But I make the same distinction you do...there is a difference between neijia masters like CXW, Chen Bing, Li Tai Liang, Chen You Ze, Chen Qinghzhou, and Chen Bing, for example, and other martial artists who may be very efficient and powerful but are NOT neijia masters or practitioners.

Ark is a very powerful martial artist (I've felt him), Chin may be (have only seen Youtube clips). Dan Harden? Haven't seen him, haven't felt him, have only read him over the years and not been able to make ANY sense of the many different things he has said and claimed. So I have no opinion. But let's say he's powerful. So that makes him internal? Really?

Ashe, I do apologize for mis-spelling the name of your art, I was typing off the top of my head, but let's get it straight, your disdain has less to do with the spelling error and more to do with your taking offense at my assertion that Chin, and his art, are not internal. I don't understand. Wing Chun is a great martial art, so is shotokan, so is kali escrima. They aren't internal martial arts. Do you think wing chun, shotokan, or kali escrima masters would be offended by their arts being described as external? Being external is an insult now? Really?

The neijia family of arts are united by some very specific things, a unique style of movement, Dantien-centered movement. Sigman is doing a service by laying out a detailed argument describing what those arts are about and what jin and qi mean FOR THOSE ARTS. Since I am interested in learning those arts, I focus on them and not on distractions.
JLB

Lorel Latorilla
11-18-2012, 11:30 AM
That's cool. I have met Rob too, I dont see him chiming in to say anything about him and Akuzawa sensei being "pure internal" or even being the slightest insecure about this. And yeah, i think all of the above mentioned are great martial artists and fine teachers.

Its like if you're a photographer or a programmer or some other kind of professional, you dont go and say all authors in the field are the same, and you dont say I will only read from this author and no one else. And you certainly wouldnt settle to study from one book alone, and never invest in your learning from as many sources as you can. Is this a competition for exclusive teaching rights in some way? Why?

For me, no, because I am not a teacher on the circuit. All I know there are people out there who claim to be teaching aiki but at the same time claiming that what others do is not "neijia" or that some are not using pure jin or pure suit or whatever. It would be hard to admit there is a bit of discrediting going on.

jlb7289
11-18-2012, 11:45 AM
Cady,

What if my standards are high? What if it's the case that because I really want to learn internal power I focus on people who are KNOWN internal masters, CXW, Chen Bing, Chen You Ze, Chen Qingzhou, Li Tai Liang, for example (I've seen all except CXW) rather than others who may or may not be internal but whose posts don't make sense to me given what I know of internal power?

And you again seem to take offense at a simple statement from my observations. You may be right, maybe I'm being too dismissive...but let me tell you a little story. Within about six months, maybe more than twelve years ago, I first saw chenstyle master Chen Qingzhou and xinyi master Li Tai Liang. I first saw Chen in Golden Gate Park. The first words (translated) out of his mouth were that the taiji was about the Dantien powering movement. He said Westerners seemed to think the Dantien was this mystical energy thing but that in fact for martial arts it was a real physical thing. And then he showed us...he let us feel his Dantien while he issued power. Months later Li does a workshop in Seattle and I attend. He tells a wild story about the mystical aspects of qi. Then he says, if you want to use qi in martial arts its about certain physical training. And he shows us and we spend the morning doing squatting monkey, training the Dantien (store and release, store and release).

What struck me was that the styles they practice look different, but what powers movements in each style is the Dantien. You try to figure out what internal power is about by focusing on unambiguously skilled practitioners of the neijia and there is less room for confusion or distraction. Anybody else, you're taking chances.

JLB

That you could read Dan Harden's posts "over the years and not been able to make ANY sense of the many different things he has said and claimed..." speaks volumes about what you comprehend and consider to be "internal" or not. Maybe, once again, people here are using the same terms to define very different things. You can't know until you go hands-on. Please just go out and touch hands cordially with these people --- Dan Harden, Sam Chin, et al. You already seem to be forming opinions despite your protestations to the contrary.

"Let's say he's powerful. I'll go feel him and see if that power is coming from internal methods. Really."

There. Fixed.

Lorel Latorilla
11-18-2012, 11:48 AM
Lorel, I doubt I have anything to teach you, I'm not that good. I'm an amateur. But I make the same distinction you do...there is a difference between neijia masters like CXW, Chen Bing, Li Tai Liang, Chen You Ze, Chen Qinghzhou, and Chen Bing, for example, and other martial artists who may be very efficient and powerful but are NOT neijia masters or practitioners.

Ark is a very powerful martial artist (I've felt him), Chin may be (have only seen Youtube clips). Dan Harden? Haven't seen him, haven't felt him, have only read him over the years and not been able to make ANY sense of the many different things he has said and claimed. So I have no opinion. But let's say he's powerful. So that makes him internal? Really?

Ashe, I do apologize for mis-spelling the name of your art, I was typing off the top of my head, but let's get it straight, your disdain has less to do with the spelling error and more to do with your taking offense at my assertion that Chin, and his art, are not internal. I don't understand. Wing Chun is a great martial art, so is shotokan, so is kali escrima. They aren't internal martial arts. Do you think wing chun, shotokan, or kali escrima masters would be offended by their arts being described as external? Being external is an insult now? Really?

The neijia family of arts are united by some very specific things, a unique style of movement, Dantien-centered movement. Sigman is doing a service by laying out a detailed argument describing what those arts are about and what jin and qi mean FOR THOSE ARTS. Since I am interested in learning those arts, I focus on them and not on distractions.
JLB

Hi Joseph,

First of all, I am not making any distinctions. The truth is I don't really know if what Dan or Ark or Sam do is fully internal. I am just suggesting that if their methods produce relaxed bodies that create kuzushi on contact, non-telegraphed strikes etc., then I will study their methods even if their systems are not classified as "internal" by some people.

Some questions now:

Why would you train a pure neijia? What is the disadvantage of learning something that is not fully neijia? Are the qualities of kuzushi on contact, technique arising naturally from a dantien-powered movement, non-telegraphed strikes, and powerful strikes with no wind-up characteristics of a neijia arts? If so, does this suggest that those qualities are watered down in systems that are not considered "neijia" in your eyes? If not, what is it about neijia that sets it apart from other arts that are not neijia? What besides those martial qualities I described above does neijia offer that pure non-neijia arts don't? How do you known that what Sam, Ark, or Dan does not offer what pure neijia offers and how do you judge this? What is about a neijia that makes you want to focus on it and not on the distractions?

Looking forward to hearing your answers.

Chris Li
11-18-2012, 11:58 AM
Cady,

What if my standards are high? What if it's the case that because I really want to learn internal power I focus on people who are KNOWN internal masters, CXW, Chen Bing, Chen You Ze, Chen Qingzhou, Li Tai Liang, for example (I've seen all except CXW) rather than others who may or may not be internal but whose posts don't make sense to me given what I know of internal power?

And you again seem to take offense at a simple statement from my observations. You may be right, maybe I'm being too dismissive...but let me tell you a little story. Within about six months, maybe more than twelve years ago, I first saw chenstyle master Chen Qingzhou and xinyi master Li Tai Liang. I first saw Chen in Golden Gate Park. The first words (translated) out of his mouth were that the taiji was about the Dantien powering movement. He said Westerners seemed to think the Dantien was this mystical energy thing but that in fact for martial arts it was a real physical thing. And then he showed us...he let us feel his Dantien while he issued power. Months later Li does a workshop in Seattle and I attend. He tells a wild story about the mystical aspects of qi. Then he says, if you want to use qi in martial arts its about certain physical training. And he shows us and we spend the morning doing squatting monkey, training the Dantien (store and release, store and release).

What struck me was that the styles they practice look different, but what powers movements in each style is the Dantien. You try to figure out what internal power is about by focusing on unambiguously skilled practitioners of the neijia and there is less room for confusion or distraction. Anybody else, you're taking chances.

JLB

Well, that's basically the lineage argument. There's nothing wrong with it, and it's often valid - but lineage alone is not always a reliable indicator. I'm sure that you'd agree that there are plenty of Chen people who aren't worth training with.

Also, there are other lineages - and if you haven't trained with them then you don't know what they can or can't do. Nobody's forcing anybody to try something if they're not interested, but I think that some people are saying that if you want to talk about what someone is doing beyond a certain point than you have to get some hands on time.

If people were talking about CXW, but there were no books and no videos, and they have never touched him or anybody in his lineage - then you'd probably recommend that they get some hands on time too. That's all.

Best,

Chris

Cady Goldfield
11-18-2012, 12:06 PM
Joseph,
I don't take offense at anything, as I have no dog in this fight, I just train aiki and IP. If you're happy with what you're doing, that's great, but IMO it pays to get out there more and see what's outside our individual boxes. Especially before making any pronouncements about who were think "has" or "has not."

jlb7289
11-18-2012, 12:27 PM
No, it's not a lineage argument. It's an authenticity argument. There are lineage holders who are not skilled practitioners. But the artists I mentioned are widely known and respected. Let's be clear, if a guy in your neighborhood says he learned bagua in a dream (or learned it from an old Chinese guy in the 50s...hello John Painter) and says he'll show you, and it seems he is a good martial artist and has some power, then it's clear he's a good martial artist. It doesn't mean his bagua is real bagua and is internally powered.

Not a lineage argument. Call me crazy, but when I want to study the neijia I tend to want to learn from people who actually study neijia, not study DR (which is not known to be internal), white crane (which is not known to be internal), or who knows what else.

JLB

PS Cady, I will not stand for your mis-characterizing what I wrote. I specifically did NOT make any claims about Dan Harden's ability. I wrote about my reading of his posts. Period. Don't start trouble by reading more into it than is warranted.

Well, that's basically the lineage argument. There's nothing wrong with it, and it's often valid - but lineage alone is not always a reliable indicator. I'm sure that you'd agree that there are plenty of Chen people who aren't worth training with.

Also, there are other lineages - and if you haven't trained with them then you don't know what they can or can't do. Nobody's forcing anybody to try something if they're not interested, but I think that some people are saying that if you want to talk about what someone is doing beyond a certain point than you have to get some hands on time.

If people were talking about CXW, but there were no books and no videos, and they have never touched him or anybody in his lineage - then you'd probably recommend that they get some hands on time too. That's all.

Best,

Chris

ashe
11-18-2012, 02:20 PM
Ashe, I do apologize for mis-spelling the name of your art, I was typing off the top of my head, but let's get it straight, your disdain has less to do with the spelling error and more to do with your taking offense at my assertion that Chin, and his art, are not internal. I don't understand. Wing Chun is a great martial art, so is shotokan, so is kali escrima. They aren't internal martial arts. Do you think wing chun, shotokan, or kali escrima masters would be offended by their arts being described as external? Being external is an insult now? Really?

my issue is, your making bold statements about what something is, or is not, with out having any direct experience of that thing. when my 11 year old does that i call her out for talking straight out of her @$$.

i had followed this topic anonymously until you threw out my Sifu's name with no experience of ILC, which is not something I'm prepared to let slide without calling you on it.

personally i couldn't care whether what I do is internal enough or not for the lineage queens. i make no distinction about "internal" or "external". tai chi is not yin or yang, it's yin/yang together. the point for me is, touch hands first, talk after.

jlb7289
11-18-2012, 02:48 PM
If you don't care whether what you do is internal or external then it certainly begs the question why you take issue with someone saying your master has some power but isn't apparently internal. Makes no sense unless you feel what he is doing is internal...or feel that if it's not that's a bad thing.

And it's not talking straight out of one's ass when one notes the limitations of what one is saying, given observations just on Youtube, as I did. My statement wasn't bold, it was a considered judgment based on my familiarity with internal martial arts (and some external ones too). I may very well be wrong...ahh, hell, no I'm not!:)

JLB

my issue is, your making bold statements about what something is, or is not, with out having any direct experience of that thing. when my 11 year old does that i call her out for talking straight out of her @$$.

i had followed this topic anonymously until you threw out my Sifu's name with no experience of ILC, which is not something I'm prepared to let slide without calling you on it.

personally i couldn't care whether what I do is internal enough or not for the lineage queens. i make no distinction about "internal" or "external". tai chi is not yin or yang, it's yin/yang together. the point for me is, touch hands first, talk after.

ashe
11-18-2012, 03:03 PM
I may very well be wrong...ahh, hell, no I'm not!:)

JLB

lolz. what makes me laugh is people who make claims like "that's not internal" but can't themselves definitively define what "internal" is, mostly because they themselves don't understand in the least, but also because this type of power and skill is not just he result of one thing (i.e. dan tien), but the culmination / relationship between all the parts, like dan tien, ming men, huan yuan "energy", peng "energy", spiral force and tai chi and so on.

i thought Lorel said it quite well -
I am just suggesting that if their methods produce relaxed bodies that create kuzushi on contact, non-telegraphed strikes etc., then I will study their methods even if their systems are not classified as "internal" by some people

quite right.

if somebody comes to see me and i can take their center from first contact (and i generally can), then we have nothing else to talk about. if they really understand what "using the dan tien" means, then i wouldn't be able to capture them so easily.

Eric Joyce
11-18-2012, 04:52 PM
if somebody comes to see me and i can take their center from first contact (and i generally can), then we have nothing else to talk about. if they really understand what "using the dan tien" means, then i wouldn't be able to capture them so easily.

For the record, I was one of those guys :) Internal or external? Who cares...I touched hands with Ashe and I was impressed.

Chris Li
11-18-2012, 05:03 PM
No, it's not a lineage argument. It's an authenticity argument. There are lineage holders who are not skilled practitioners. But the artists I mentioned are widely known and respected. Let's be clear, if a guy in your neighborhood says he learned bagua in a dream (or learned it from an old Chinese guy in the 50s...hello John Painter) and says he'll show you, and it seems he is a good martial artist and has some power, then it's clear he's a good martial artist. It doesn't mean his bagua is real bagua and is internally powered.

Not a lineage argument. Call me crazy, but when I want to study the neijia I tend to want to learn from people who actually study neijia, not study DR (which is not known to be internal), white crane (which is not known to be internal), or who knows what else.

JLB

PS Cady, I will not stand for your mis-characterizing what I wrote. I specifically did NOT make any claims about Dan Harden's ability. I wrote about my reading of his posts. Period. Don't start trouble by reading more into it than is warranted.

As I said, "basically a lineage argument" - the value of a known quantity. There's nothing wrong with that - except that it assumes that everything's known.

Mike, for example, is always cautious enough to say that he's not really sure how much Ueshiba or the DR guys actually knew (although he has his opinions, of course).

Best,

Chris

Alfonso
11-18-2012, 09:00 PM
I think we're way past discussing whether O Sensei was involved in developing internal strength or not. Or whether it is real or not ( as a group I think). How much , to what degree, in what vein, with what kind of approach, where , when and using which methods; thats a lot harder to quantify. But I think it is also clear that Aikido does not pretend to be Tai Chi or Xingyi.

Reading Ellis's last blog about Akuzawa, does that sound like there is something less awesome or unusual in that kind of power? Even if it is not the same as Chen tai chi?

And, is there anything woowoo being proposed by Internal Strength proponents?

And why dont you find any Chen tai chi people winning MMA? And does Mike Tyson feel left out for not having trained in it?

Lorel Latorilla
11-18-2012, 09:03 PM
Joseph can you answer my questions?

MM
11-19-2012, 06:51 AM
Hello Mark.
I didn't see what Mike was describing in his "teacher test" in that video. If I were to describe what I see in this video, using Aikido speak as our reference, I would say it's an example of a student taking ukemi for his teacher. Would you agree, or not?

I wasn't referencing the "teacher test", but rather the last sentence in your post. Should have made that clearer.

But, back to the video and questions, which I will requote for reference:

Chris,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=6zZDtCZVURY

Liu Chengde. Notice how he has one hand up and one hand down? Why? Why do poses of Ueshiba look the same? Takeda, too. What's going on internally? What core internal components are at work here?

Let me reference some of your posts now.


I don't want you to think, and it sounds like from your posts you do, that I don't like Chinese internal marital arts. I do, I have trained seriously in them.



To say I have no understanding in this area, is not only insulting, but very untrue. If you would like to talk about Aikido, I have quite a lot of experience. If you would like to talk about competing, and sparring I have done a lot of that too. If you would like to talk about Chinese internal, again I have spent a lot of time doing that with a known authority.

Now if what the "IP" group is doing is not one of those things, then perhaps your right. If this is something you invented and didn't come from Aikido, martial practice, or Chinese internal, you very well could be right. But if you are talking about any of those things above listed, I do have a fair amount of experience with them.

We're talking Chinese internals here. What Sigman posted is one area. What Liu Chengde is showing is another. Back to the questions regarding Liu Chengde:

Notice how he has one hand up and one hand down? Why? Why do poses of Ueshiba look the same? Takeda, too. What's going on internally? What core internal components are at work here?

jlb7289
11-19-2012, 07:44 AM
Hi Joseph,

Why would you train a pure neijia? What is the disadvantage of learning something that is not fully neijia? Are the qualities of kuzushi on contact, technique arising naturally from a dantien-powered movement, non-telegraphed strikes, and powerful strikes with no wind-up characteristics of a neijia arts? If so, does this suggest that those qualities are watered down in systems that are not considered "neijia" in your eyes? If not, what is it about neijia that sets it apart from other arts that are not neijia? What besides those martial qualities I described above does neijia offer that pure non-neijia arts don't? How do you known that what Sam, Ark, or Dan does not offer what pure neijia offers and how do you judge this? What is about a neijia that makes you want to focus on it and not on the distractions?


Why would you train pure neijia? Because they are fascinating arts that I've been reading about for a long time, and the qualities you mention are attractive. I don't think no-wind up strikes are 'watered' down in non-neijia arts, they are just more powered by local muscle. One advantage of the neijia is that you can deliver significant power without having lots of muscle. But such strikes, done externally, certainly can work (and they are certainly easier to learn and use more quickly, two not insignificant advantages to the waijia). But if they are powered by local muscle (upper body muscle) rather than Dantien-controlled whole body power, all the time (check the requirements for taiji, bagua, xingyi movement), then they by definition aren't neijia. And one thing neijia masters say over and over is that if you want to get good at those arts, you have to go all in, re-training your body to move from the Dantien is hard, even harder if you're training it some of the time and training external arts some of the time.

Ark was actually quite disdainful of Dantien-powered movement when I saw him last (even though, as I mentioned, it was clear he sometimes used such movement). But it's not 'all Dantien all the time' with him, and again, that is one key definition of the neijia.

What makes me want to focus on the neijia? What makes me love Tim O'Brien novels? Just crazy like that, I guess. I'm an amateur, this is a hobby for me...they're fun and difficult in that way that all engrossing hobbies should be. If I were solely interested in defending myself or winning fights I'd still be doing muay thai and kali escrima.

JLB

Lorel Latorilla
11-19-2012, 08:27 AM
Why would you train pure neijia? Because they are fascinating arts that I've been reading about for a long time, and the qualities you mention are attractive. I don't think no-wind up strikes are 'watered' down in non-neijia arts, they are just more powered by local muscle. One advantage of the neijia is that you can deliver significant power without having lots of muscle. But such strikes, done externally, certainly can work (and they are certainly easier to learn and use more quickly, two not insignificant advantages to the waijia). But if they are powered by local muscle (upper body muscle) rather than Dantien-controlled whole body power, all the time (check the requirements for taiji, bagua, xingyi movement), then they by definition aren't neijia. And one thing neijia masters say over and over is that if you want to get good at those arts, you have to go all in, re-training your body to move from the Dantien is hard, even harder if you're training it some of the time and training external arts some of the time.

Ark was actually quite disdainful of Dantien-powered movement when I saw him last (even though, as I mentioned, it was clear he sometimes used such movement). But it's not 'all Dantien all the time' with him, and again, that is one key definition of the neijia.

What makes me want to focus on the neijia? What makes me love Tim O'Brien novels? Just crazy like that, I guess. I'm an amateur, this is a hobby for me...they're fun and difficult in that way that all engrossing hobbies should be. If I were solely interested in defending myself or winning fights I'd still be doing muay thai and kali escrima.

JLB

Thanks for your answers.

"don't think no-wind up strikes are 'watered' down in non-neijia arts, they are just more powered by local muscle. " Interesting. I would say those who are in the non-neijia arts might that their strikes are not powered by "local" muscle. I think Ark, Dan, and Sam Chin would claim something like that. But I could be definitely wrong. I don't want to put words in their mouth. Maybe Dan can chime in? Dan would definitely say that his movements are dantien-powered. What do you have to say about that?

"Ark was actually quite disdainful of Dantien-powered movement when I saw him last (even though, as I mentioned, it was clear he sometimes used such movement). But it's not 'all Dantien all the time' with him, and again, that is one key definition of the neijia."

I have no comment on this besides some questions. In what context did Ark say this? Do you know in what moments Ark said that "dantien" movement is not efficient? And in your case, why would "dantien-powered" movement all the time be efficient?

MM
11-19-2012, 08:47 AM
Why would you train pure neijia? Because they are fascinating arts that I've been reading about for a long time, and the qualities you mention are attractive. I don't think no-wind up strikes are 'watered' down in non-neijia arts, they are just more powered by local muscle. One advantage of the neijia is that you can deliver significant power without having lots of muscle. But such strikes, done externally, certainly can work (and they are certainly easier to learn and use more quickly, two not insignificant advantages to the waijia). But if they are powered by local muscle (upper body muscle) rather than Dantien-controlled whole body power, all the time (check the requirements for taiji, bagua, xingyi movement), then they by definition aren't neijia. And one thing neijia masters say over and over is that if you want to get good at those arts, you have to go all in, re-training your body to move from the Dantien is hard, even harder if you're training it some of the time and training external arts some of the time.

JLB

Thanks for the response. I had wondered what you had meant, too.

But, dantien controlled whole body power all the time? Are we saying that's the end goal of the art? As you said, it's hard training to accomplish. If so, then Ueshiba's aikido would be considered neijia. So would Takeda's Daito ryu. As would Chen Fake's student Hong Jungshen and his students, Li Chugong and Liu Chengde. So, those lineages would be neijia if the actual training was handed down to all students. There was a reason for the title, "indoor disciple". Takeda stated only to train a few in the secrets. How do we, then, label those arts where only a few were trained in the secrets, which dantien-controlled whole body power was most likely one? Do we then say that neijia is only a term for certain people, rather than the overall art?

Alfonso
11-19-2012, 10:21 AM
Phone ate my answer, but it boils down to us misusing Chinese technical terms and thus not helping clarity

phitruong
11-19-2012, 12:15 PM
the exchange between JLB and Ashe started to sound like those old kungfu movie. you know the ones where the lips moved then the sound catched up a few seconds later. ya, you know what i am talking about.

Master Yu-Se Ma-Ma (YSMM): your master kungfu no good! he no neigung! *lips moving...wait for it ...wait for it... there's the sound*

Master Wu Don-It (WDI): you insulted my master. i revenge my master. i show you Seven Star Praying Mama Stance! *badly mustache lips moving...long pony tail moving*

Master YSMM: ahh! that not bad! but my Heavenly Whooping Cough Spraying Spits Body can defeat your kungfu! *lots of swallow and spit ensure... lips still moving*

Master WDI: hah! i thought you try that! my Buddha Bitch Slapping Palm can deal with you! *lips still moving ....lots of slapping noise...and other sound affects ....and some guy pouring coffee...and curse on no sugar and cream*

*flash back to various training scenes with guys kicking each other crotch...*

you know i could be the director for the next martial arts movie with title: Aikido - the internal stuffings with gravy and sweet potato pie. looking for starting roles and various grips (still have no idea what those poeople are gripping but i am sure we need them).

phitruong
11-19-2012, 12:17 PM
Phone ate my answer, but it boils down to us misusing Chinese technical terms and thus not helping clarity

maybe you should boil your phone and eat it in order to teach it not to eat your answer. :)

Alfonso
11-19-2012, 03:22 PM
.. do we, then, label those arts where only a few were trained in the secrets, which dantien-controlled whole body power was most likely one? Do we then say that neijia is only a term for certain people, rather than the overall art?


Well, as far as labels matter this is tricky isnt it? If you consider that in the "neijia" this indoor stuff seems to be the norm rather than the exception. I dont know, it seems safer to let the label stay with the people who coined it and set store on it. The skill, the whole skill and the rabbit hole of how much is available to you seems to be a different level of conversation. Steal this technique is not going to be very conducive to generating a common understanding , a consistent one, or an unchanging one.

O sensei was continuously learning. He adapted things from other arts (lets not spin off into the old saw about Aikido not coming from DR). Wer'e trying to pin something that was being cooked in a long simmer to a fixed formula; a recipe that was always the same and never changed. I think that just confuses things.

ashe
11-19-2012, 03:48 PM
the exchange between JLB and Ashe started to sound like those old kungfu movie. you know the ones where the lips moved then the sound catched up a few seconds later.

Yeah, little bit of drama, but for those have have known me for some time, I've always walked softly, but those days are done, it's time to make some noise. For those with ears to listen I'm ringing the bell, so if that means responding to sideways remarks from random dudes, so be it.

Alfonso
11-19-2012, 03:58 PM
In that case whatever you're doing it doesn't seem to be improving your mood.

Wer'e having a discussion about internal strength parameters, hopefully improving the quality of the discussion a bit. Are you sure that this depends on you having the big stick? What if you're unable to manhandle some excellent athlete of the western kind? Does that mean you know nothing about internal strength?

yugen
11-19-2012, 04:31 PM
In that case whatever you're doing it doesn't seem to be improving your mood.

Wer'e having a discussion about internal strength parameters, hopefully improving the quality of the discussion a bit. Are you sure that this depends on you having the big stick? What if you're unable to manhandle some excellent athlete of the western kind? Does that mean you know nothing about internal strength?

This started as a thread about discussing internal strength parameters according to Mike Sigman's parameters or so I'm inferring from the title. No one from ILC posted on this thread or added to it until Joe Brown decided to turn it into a "I'm going to call out who I don't think is deserving of the neijia title"

If you want to discuss the "parameters" as you'd like to define it then go ahead. But I could just as easily start throwing out names from Ueshiba, Tim Cartmell, Dan Harden, Sam Chin, etc - call bullshit on it and start an argument all based on my "validity" of sitting behind my computer and pointing to some other guy's blog.

In short, being a troll unfortunately still succeeds in getting the responses trolls seek.

Alfonso
11-19-2012, 04:59 PM
Where do you get the sense I'm trolling?

yugen
11-19-2012, 05:16 PM
Where do you get the sense I'm trolling?

Ashe's original response was an emotional one based on a statement about ILC and Sifu Chin that were derived from someone watching youtube videos. The comments about ILC didn't have any relevance regarding the topic of the thread other than to claim what ILC is 'not' but without any first hand knowledge or experience of the art, Sam Chin etc. - i.e. trolling and Ashe reacted.

Ashe then replies about it being a bit of drama. Your reply isn't getting back to the topic on hand to discuss dantien, ming men, spiraling etc.. just more of the same .. trolling..

discuss the topic, that's all I'm saying. If you want to make a determination about ILC then discuss and ask questions about how ILC is trained and what's in the system.

Reading Mike Sigman's blog just about everything outlined is part of ILC training as I know it..

Ashe btw is very humble, quite skilled and knowledgeable and I'm certain can really fight and apply his art, which I find to be extremely rare in the internal arts world.

Alfonso
11-19-2012, 05:26 PM
Ok , fine. I'll bring it back on topic. If you disagree with JLB about the place of ILC in the internal arts, please start a thread on that.

Internal Strength might possibly allow you to beat me up. I dont think thats the differentiating point.
Its how you use your body. There are different levels to this; if you have mastery of all these things, all the more power to you (quite). If you want to help us poor non internal strength Aikidoka see the light, well thank you.

Joseph is a real person, not a fictional character here to goad you. I am real enough. I'm not interested in jerking your chain. Mike Sigman's blog posts have nothing in there that you dont do; great! I didnt know 1/10 of this stuff 10 years ago; and these blogs are putting out information that was not being shared openly before, at least where I could see them. They are good posts, informative and not appealing to claims of invincibility nor making threats to anyone.

Dont be so sensitive; people here are being told Aikido has nothing in it; and that we're all fools. Youre all getting emotional about not being acknowledged as the best of the best. Thats just downright silly.

Chris Li
11-19-2012, 05:38 PM
They are good posts, informative and not appealing to claims of invincibility nor making threats to anyone.

Personally, I've been enjoying Mike's blogs - but I can't recall anybody claiming to be invincible, and certainly nobody making threats.

Best,

Chris

MM
11-19-2012, 05:45 PM
Well, as far as labels matter this is tricky isnt it? If you consider that in the "neijia" this indoor stuff seems to be the norm rather than the exception. I dont know, it seems safer to let the label stay with the people who coined it and set store on it. The skill, the whole skill and the rabbit hole of how much is available to you seems to be a different level of conversation. Steal this technique is not going to be very conducive to generating a common understanding , a consistent one, or an unchanging one.

And the point you were trying to make is?


O sensei was continuously learning. He adapted things from other arts (lets not spin off into the old saw about Aikido not coming from DR). Wer'e trying to pin something that was being cooked in a long simmer to a fixed formula; a recipe that was always the same and never changed. I think that just confuses things.

Please list the arts that Ueshiba studied, took things from, and showed in some manner.

Please provide proof that Saito was wrong when he looked at the Budo book and stated that it was what Ueshiba taught him.

Please provide proof Ueshiba or his students stating that Ueshiba learned some martial art and then adapted it into his teaching.

Please start a new thread with the answers.

If you can't do those things ... then maybe it's your theories that are confusing things?

Alfonso
11-19-2012, 05:51 PM
Mark, I said I didnt mean that Ueshiba was not primarily involved in DR.

Please prove that all the assertions where he went to someone and said "in Aiki we do it like this" were not about him exploring other things than DR.

What please are my theories?

Oh, and I meant in the first part , that saying aikido is neijia is just confusing things more. That is a word that means something specific, historically. Its like coming up with "Aiki self improvement" for psychology. It is not helpful.

DH
11-19-2012, 07:19 PM
This started as a thread about discussing internal strength parameters according to Mike Sigman's parameters or so I'm inferring from the title. No one from ILC posted on this thread or added to it until Joe Brown decided to turn it into a "I'm going to call out who I don't think is deserving of the neijia title"

If you want to discuss the "parameters" as you'd like to define it then go ahead. But I could just as easily start throwing out names from Ueshiba, Tim Cartmell, Dan Harden, Sam Chin, etc - call bullshit on it and start an argument all based on my "validity" of sitting behind my computer and pointing to some other guy's blog.

In short, being a troll unfortunately still succeeds in getting the responses trolls seek.
Exactly
Anything even *related* to that person in the OP usually turns into accusations and unsupported assertions. Now it involves people with little skill discussing whether or not..I or Sam..use dantian??
Hilarious.
Again, if certain people want to use certain untested mens assertions of what nejia is, I would ask what is HIS track record up against those vetted to have internal power by their very own definition.
I am uninterested in some western guys opinion of me unseen and untouched. I will take the very big dogs they have named...opinions.
Bowen might want to consider when discussing video, just..who... has been widely discredited for the way he moves by the very people he claims to be moving ....like.
I agree with Ashe that the parameters of the discussion are pretty funny right from the source material.

ashe
11-19-2012, 07:28 PM
In that case whatever you're doing it doesn't seem to be improving your mood.

i'm actually very chill. being assertive is not the same thing as being an @$$h0l3.

one thing you'll never find me doing is speaking negatively of other arts or teachers, regardless of my personal opinions, if for nothing else than many of them are making their living from teaching, it's how they provide for their families, which is a much more important thing. you don't break someone else's rice bowl. it's basic wude.

at the same time ILC has something very special to share for those who are looking for it, so that's the reason for the firmness of my response. There's no more time to hide our light under a bushel so to speak, or for simply ignoring ill-informed comments. Sifu is 58 years old and he's not going to travel the world forever.

Wer'e having a discussion about internal strength parameters, hopefully improving the quality of the discussion a bit. Are you sure that this depends on you having the big stick? What if you're unable to manhandle some excellent athlete of the western kind? Does that mean you know nothing about internal strength?

well, as I stated in my earlier post because this type of power and skill is not just he result of one thing (i.e. dan tien), but the culmination / relationship between all the parts, like dan tien, ming men, huan yuan "energy", peng "energy", spiral force and tai chi and so on.

of course timing and spacing are another aspect, (i.e. timing and distance, range and body lines) so if the timing is off then of course you'll get smashed too no matter who you're messing with. it all factors in.

it's all spokes in a wheel. each spoke shares a relationship back to the center. The more spokes you have, the stronger the wheel, but you can't say any one spoke is most important.

yugen
11-19-2012, 07:30 PM
Dont be so sensitive; people here are being told Aikido has nothing in it; and that we're all fools. Youre all getting emotional about not being acknowledged as the best of the best. Thats just downright silly.

my final reply on the personal non-topic detour.. I've never said anything about Aikido, I go and play with the Aiki/DR folks locally here all the time. Any issues I have with Aikido I discuss with the people local who I train with. No one in ILC is seeking or has sought acknowledgment of being the best of the best.

Lorel Latorilla
11-19-2012, 11:01 PM
Alfonso:

So you are asking us to refrain from using Chinese terms to describe the physical skills we're engaging in so as to not confuse the terms. That's cool.

I just find it interesting that people who never formally studied with DR guys with aiki skills but have gained skills in Chinese arts are now defining what "aiki" or "kokyu" (Japanese terms that point to a particular skill) is. Would you also ask these people to refrain from using Japanese terms so as to prevent confusion? If not, why not?

Alfonso
11-19-2012, 11:50 PM
Not really, I'm asking us to be aware that we are using chinese terms which may mean something different to other people.

I agree that Aiki or Kokyu are terms that are indeed related to the chinese terms, qi in paricular.

Lorel Latorilla
11-20-2012, 02:50 AM
Not really, I'm asking us to be aware that we are using chinese terms which may mean something different to other people.

I agree that Aiki or Kokyu are terms that are indeed related to the chinese terms, qi in paricular.

I dont mean to be a stickler, but shouldnt you be asking us to be aware of what "aiki" is because they may mean something different to other people?

Alfonso
11-20-2012, 09:49 AM
I dont mean to be a stickler, but shouldnt you be asking us to be aware of what "aiki" is because they may mean something different to other people?

Well yeah, of course!

DH
11-20-2012, 02:39 PM
Thanks for your answers.

"don't think no-wind up strikes are 'watered' down in non-neijia arts, they are just more powered by local muscle. " Interesting. I would say those who are in the non-neijia arts might that their strikes are not powered by "local" muscle. I think Ark, Dan, and Sam Chin would claim something like that. But I could be definitely wrong. I don't want to put words in their mouth. Maybe Dan can chime in? Dan would definitely say that his movements are dantien-powered. What do you have to say about that?

"Ark was actually quite disdainful of Dantien-powered movement when I saw him last (even though, as I mentioned, it was clear he sometimes used such movement). But it's not 'all Dantien all the time' with him, and again, that is one key definition of the neijia."

Hi Lorel
Thanks. No lengthy answer, I'm on a plane. I don't want to interfere too much with all the agendas popping up...
I have taught dantian driven movement for over twenty years.
"The hand doesn't move without the center/ the center doesn't move without the hand" ...is a teaching of Daito ryu. One that Howard and I both learned more than two decades ago. It is a specific teaching with specialized exercises solo and paired to learn how to,....activate...hara (dantian). Thus we find it hilarious to read internet personalities and their followers telling us we don't use dantian.

There is no need to engage these people. As you and many others know, I have crossed hands with the real experts...not bloggers. Maybe its meaningful that the experts...who actually had a lengthy one on one exchange...do not share the same opinions as those who have never laid a hand on me or seen me move.

I'm out. I only popped in because my name came up.
Dan

jss
11-20-2012, 02:59 PM
"The hand doesn't move without the center/ the center doesn't move without the hand" ...is a teaching of Daito ryu. One that Howard and I both learned more than two decades ago. It is a specific teaching with specialized exercises solo and paired to learn how to,....activate...hara (dantian). Thus we find it hilarious to read internet personalities and their followers telling us we don't use dantian.
As far as I understand the devil is (as ever) in the details, i.e. what kind of connection is there between the hand and the dantien and what other body connections come into play?
Oh well, small chance we'll ever figure it out without doing a show-and-tell, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. ;)

DH
11-20-2012, 03:12 PM
As far as I understand the devil is (as ever) in the details, i.e. what kind of connection is there between the hand and the dantien and what other body connections come into play?
Oh well, small chance we'll ever figure it out without doing a show-and-tell, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. ;)
Show and tell *your* abilities and then discuss how you train crossing hands with the real experts. I did. I have a connected body, and I taught others how to as well.

Reading?
All I keep reading in posts and blogs is equal to the baby side of the pool, and even that is missing so much critical information that one wonders why anyone even bothered. I have yet to feel anyone with power from.....reading.
Dan

Tengu859
11-20-2012, 03:34 PM
As far as I understand the devil is (as ever) in the details, i.e. what kind of connection is there between the hand and the dantien and what other body connections come into play?
Oh well, small chance we'll ever figure it out without doing a show-and-tell, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. ;)

Joep,

I think that Harden character has been to the "Nether-Lands" quite a few times already(where were you?). Chances are he will be back...Go for it!!! Just my 2cents. ;0)

TakeCare,

ChrisW

PS Then maybe you can have some "show" & "tell". Enjoy

jss
11-20-2012, 03:41 PM
Show and tell *your* abilities and then discuss how you train crossing hands with the real experts.
I have more opinions than I have abilities, so no thanks, I'm good. :D

All I keep reading in posts and blogs is equal to the baby side of the pool, and even that is missing so much critical information that one wonders why anyone even bothered.
So we can agree there's more to it than "hand and dantien are connected"?

I think that Harden character has been to the "Nether-Lands" quite a few times already(where were you?). Chances are he will be back...Go for it!!! Just my 2cents. ;0)
I have asked at least two times to attend one of his seminars and was refused both times, so that's not going to work...

DH
11-20-2012, 04:04 PM
Joep
I almost NEVER turn people away.
Hmm.... People who affiliate with certain people who are known as disingenuous trouble makers are not welcome to my seminars. It's not personal...to you.
Like my dad said..."You choose your friends, and others may turn their backs on you because of it, so choose wisely." ;)
I've literally turned my back to real friends of mine for their choices.
Dan

Lorel Latorilla
11-21-2012, 10:32 AM
I have more opinions than I have abilities, so no thanks, I'm good. :D

So we can agree there's more to it than "hand and dantien are connected"?

I have asked at least two times to attend one of his seminars and was refused both times, so that's not going to work...

Hi Joep,

Just to make it known. I have no particular favor towards Dan. I have never met him nor have I experienced his system. But to make it fair, I can understand why Dan would not explain himself online..which some people would interpret as him being evasive.

But I think he refuses to engage people online because I believe he HAS explained himself and to the best of his abilities online, and people have downplayed his knowledge based on what he expressed through words. For some people, the language he uses is not satisfactory and does not meet their standards. For this reason, people have dismissed his work as bunk, without even meeting him. So a lot of these "questions" people ask him online, just look likes like a verbal challenge, one that he will not be able to fulfill because people are always finding ways to make him look like he doesn't know anything (based of course on what they know).

But like Dan says, he has met some heavy hitting top "internal" guys in open rooms...you can ask
Dan and some others here who have seen those encounters what they had to say about him. you can ask people from those encounters whether or not Dan really has "internal skill" and what those heavy hitters had to say about him. And if you are truly interested in pursuing skill, then go and see him! Don't try engage him in "verbal" challenge by disingenuously disguising it as a "discussion" where you can pursue the "truth" of internal martial arts.

jss
11-21-2012, 12:05 PM
Joep
I almost NEVER turn people away.
Hmm.... People who affiliate with certain people who are known as disingenuous trouble makers are not welcome to my seminars. It's not personal...to you.
Like my dad said..."You choose your friends, and others may turn their backs on you because of it, so choose wisely." ;)
I've literally turned my back to real friends of mine for their choices.
Dan
No hard feelings. We discussed this openly and honestly through PMs. Although I regret your decision, I do respect it. Only reason I brought it up was because Chris (Tengu859) deserved a proper reply to his question.

jss
11-21-2012, 12:06 PM
Just to make it known. I have no particular favor towards Dan. I have never met him nor have I experienced his system. But to make it fair, I can understand why Dan would not explain himself online..which some people would interpret as him being evasive.

<snip>

<snip>Don't try engage him in "verbal" challenge by disingenuously disguising it as a "discussion" where you can pursue the "truth" of internal martial arts.

Hi Lorel,

I don't fully understand why you addressed the above post to me, especially the last sentence. Sure, I was challenging Dan in my two posts, but he parried those nicely and I have no intention on following it up. So yes I was pushing it a bit, but I also believe I know when to quit, which is what I did.
In any case, thanks for the feedback.

All the best,
Joep

Lorel Latorilla
11-21-2012, 12:09 PM
Hi Lorel,

I don't fully understand why you addressed the above post to me, especially the last sentence. Sure, I was challenging Dan in my two posts, but he parried those nicely and I have no intention on following it up. So yes I was pushing it a bit, but I also believe I know when to quit, which is what I did.
In any case, thanks for the feedback.

All the best,
Joep

Joep.

Nothing personal against you; "you" was a theoretical "you".

Best
Lorel

Lorel Latorilla
11-21-2012, 12:29 PM
Hi Lorel
Thanks. No lengthy answer, I'm on a plane. I don't want to interfere too much with all the agendas popping up...
I have taught dantian driven movement for over twenty years.
"The hand doesn't move without the center/ the center doesn't move without the hand" ...is a teaching of Daito ryu. One that Howard and I both learned more than two decades ago. It is a specific teaching with specialized exercises solo and paired to learn how to,....activate...hara (dantian). Thus we find it hilarious to read internet personalities and their followers telling us we don't use dantian.

There is no need to engage these people. As you and many others know, I have crossed hands with the real experts...not bloggers. Maybe its meaningful that the experts...who actually had a lengthy one on one exchange...do not share the same opinions as those who have never laid a hand on me or seen me move.

I'm out. I only popped in because my name came up.
Dan

No doubt. Just wanted to chime in about that because there seem sto be a recurring pattern here :)

DH
11-21-2012, 01:36 PM
No hard feelings. We discussed this openly and honestly through PMs. Although I regret your decision, I do respect it. Only reason I brought it up was because Chris (Tengu859) deserved a proper reply to his question.

I honestly don't remember, but I am glad that our communication was open and honest. I have made a few exceptions to those affiliated with a certain person to come and train; all but a few turned out very well. Away from that exception (which turned out to be very wise), I let anyone come.
I hope you are enjoying your training and search.
Dan

DH
11-21-2012, 02:03 PM
No doubt. Just wanted to chime in about that because there seems to be a recurring pattern here :)
I always appreciate honesty without agenda.
Isn't it strange how agendas somehow allow people to excuse abhorrent behavior and stare truth...right in the face.. and deny everything that doesn't fit the agenda.

In the mean time, I continue to tell people to go train with *everyone* and get what they can for themselves...don't just look to me. I have no agenda that requires me to be above anyone else. Let's just pursue truth. After reading certain people *claiming* that attitude, like a fool, I thought they meant whey write.
Big mistake!!
Dan