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ChrisHein
11-10-2012, 09:38 PM
I'm putting together a little investigative paper, in which I'm planning on working with some experts in the "IP" area. But in order to make this paper, I need to understand what would and would not constitute having, "internal power" or "IP".

I am curious, what abilities should one who has "IP" be able to demonstrate that a non "IP" having person could not? What things are "proof" of IP? Thing's that I can put in a paper and point to after having met with IP experts. How would I know if a person had "IP" and was not simply strong in an "external way", or was using some kind of "trick" or other technique that might fool me? Beyond word of mouth, what proof of "IP" can I use?

Other then "it felt strange" what kinds of things could I point out, or ask about that would show someone having "IP" over "EP" (external power).

David Orange
11-10-2012, 11:01 PM
Read the Baseline Skills thread on aikiweb. Look for Mike Sigman's Teacher Test criteria. This has all been stated in detail and at length in more than one thread. Baseline Skills will probably tell you all you need for your research.

Of course...you need to meet these "experts" in person. It has to be "experienced"--not talked about.

And another hint: save yourself the trouble of figuring out which ones do or don't have "it" by skipping the ones who don't already have a well established reputation for having the goods. A short list of those to see would include (in no particular order):

Dan Harden
Mike Sigman
Minoru Akuzawa
Rob John
Forrest Chang

These, at least, I'm sure of.

Dan has also stated that Sam Chinn has the goods, so add him.

Also, apparently, William Gleason.

Other people have given you a few other names.

But save yourself the waste of time by only going to those already acknowledged and recognized as real experts. No point in analyzing and finding the fallacies in a bunch of guys no one ever heard of and using their failings to represent IP.

David

ChrisHein
11-11-2012, 12:57 AM
Cool thanks for the point in those directions, David.

Cady Goldfield
11-11-2012, 11:32 AM
I have felt Sam Chin hands-on and can verify that he has both IP and aiki. As mentioned in another thread, he is doing a workshop in Southern California in January, and in the Bay area in December.

Michael Douglas
11-11-2012, 11:47 AM
Excellent idea.
But in order to make this paper, I need to understand what would and would not constitute having, "internal power" or "IP"..
Can you find some concrete indications and check for them in a blind test?
That would go a long way towards a general 'proof' that something exists which can be described as internal skill.

ChrisHein
11-11-2012, 12:30 PM
Excellent idea.

Can you find some concrete indications and check for them in a blind test?
That would go a long way towards a general 'proof' that something exists which can be described as internal skill.

I think this is a great idea. And we could easily do it. It however might be rude at a seminar to suggest we do a blind test, and probably out of the scope for what I'm asking. But on a side note, I would love to do it if any IP experts were up to it.

Jeremy Hulley
11-11-2012, 12:53 PM
If you can, get the list of Stupid Jin tricks that Forrest Chang put together. Its been a few years since I read them but I remember them as being pretty comprehensive.

ChrisHein
11-11-2012, 01:06 PM
At one point I was allowed to see the video of Forrest doing those. I don't think I can anymore, if it's possible I'd like to see that video again (calling to the powers that be).

Mary Eastland
11-11-2012, 07:03 PM
I think you could start with those that can pop off the wall with very loud noise. That could be number one. What do you think? :)

ChrisHein
11-11-2012, 07:51 PM
I found that I could pop off the wall first time I tried. Because I can do it, I know that it must not be "IP"...

HL1978
11-11-2012, 08:04 PM
Something simple like the teacher test is a good start as it is a static position.

Like i said in the other thread here (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=318675&postcount=80) basically demo's that don't require momentum, big movements, rotations (of the body or arms) or explosive power in order to pull it off. Not to say that those can't be used, but they aren't the primary means by which most internal people are generating power.

Anyone who has Jin, should be able to do Forrest Chang's stupid jin tricks. As Forrest said in his seminar, any big name guy should be able to do it, and might laugh because they are very basic things, that get built upon. I think there are 7 in total, and if you haven't been exposed to the subject matter before, they can be quite surprising, and the martial utility becomes apparent right away.

ChrisHein
11-11-2012, 08:23 PM
Thanks Hunter.
I was given a link and password to those video's once before, do you know how I could go about getting that again?

Alfonso
11-11-2012, 10:56 PM
Hey Chris

we met, so i know how you feel about these things

in any case, here's a good video of CXW (Chen XiaoWang) showing movement that is conforming to the rquirements of internal strength

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Holnh-VEysA&feature=related

Pay attention to the way he describes his various hits and how they look. I told you when we met that the dichotomy your proposing of athletics vs internal is nonsense there is no jedi stuff goning on here. But there is a different logic to the body movement to other types which are very good.

In any case why go to the students when there are legitimate masters around?

But just in case, in this video there is one guy with an Aikido background , a nidan in yoshinkan actually, who has spent his time pursuing internal training; you're familiar with the venue I understand. see if you can spot him. He's actually an aikiweb member too. He is much too modest to bring himself up, so I am taking the liberty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELN-DQI5qc

ChrisHein
11-12-2012, 12:10 AM
I couldn't tell who it was, you should tell us. Congrats to anyone who is willing to go in with the dog brothers!! It's no joke.

I'm not sure what I'm seeing in that video of CXW. I did see him using his favorite technique at 2:10.

HL1978
11-12-2012, 06:47 AM
Thanks Hunter.
I was given a link and password to those video's once before, do you know how I could go about getting that again?

I unfortunately no longer have access to them myself. I have access to my notes, which explain what the SJTs are conceptually, but I don't think I wrote down exactly what Forrest demoed for each one.

Alfonso
11-12-2012, 07:58 PM
Hey Chris,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELN-DQI5qc#t=2m17s

he appears before at 1m10s and again later. So, he credits the work he's done on IS to allow him to pull this off. And if you tally his hours training in martial arts I'm afraid his #1 would have to be Aikido. But he is a dog brother now too ( Mongolian Dog )

Another guy, Forrest Chang is someone who has put in a lot of work and training, can speak the language, and can understand the context of the chinese in martial arts too, and a very intelligent human being. Stupid Jin Tricks is a list of things that you should be able to do without training to do them if using internal stuff. The brain is a very plastic thing, no magic , no woowoo but sitll very plastic and trainable. Over time; with good guideance. He's worth meeting , but you'll have to be in the context of chinese IMA , I dont think he's very interested in aikido at all.

And I stand by what I said, human bodies are human bodies and scientific inquiry is a process. Stuff not understood will be better understood. That's all.

phitruong
11-12-2012, 08:18 PM
he appears before at 1m10s and again later. So, he credits the work he's done on IS to allow him to pull this off. And if you tally his hours training in martial arts I'm afraid his #1 would have to be Aikido. But he is a dog brother now too ( Mongolian Dog )
.

is there real dog in mongolian dog? would it taste good with chili and coleslaw? oh crap! ck is going to kill me now! :)

ChrisHein
11-12-2012, 11:53 PM
That is awesome. Becoming a "Dog Brother" is also not an easy task, it's a very difficult and impressive thing to do!

rroeserr
11-13-2012, 12:59 AM
I'm putting together a little investigative paper, in which I'm planning on working with some experts in the "IP" area. But in order to make this paper, I need to understand what would and would not constitute having, "internal power" or "IP".

I am curious, what abilities should one who has "IP" be able to demonstrate that a non "IP" having person could not? What things are "proof" of IP? Thing's that I can put in a paper and point to after having met with IP experts. How would I know if a person had "IP" and was not simply strong in an "external way", or was using some kind of "trick" or other technique that might fool me? Beyond word of mouth, what proof of "IP" can I use?

Other then "it felt strange" what kinds of things could I point out, or ask about that would show someone having "IP" over "EP" (external power).

You could actually walk away from the keyboard, be polite, and go meet someone in person. It's novel I know.

Richard Stevens
11-13-2012, 07:08 AM
I wholeheartedly agree with Robert. I was HIGHLY skeptical of the whole Aiki/IP argument. However, instead of clinging to what I know and then doubling down on my ignorance (lack of first hand knowledge) and backing myself into a corner, I kept quiet about the topic and waited until I "felt" it before I said anything. If what I felt would have been BS, I would have been just as vocal.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-13-2012, 08:57 AM
Hey Chris,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELN-DQI5qc#t=2m17s

he appears before at 1m10s and again later. So, he credits the work he's done on IS to allow him to pull this off. And if you tally his hours training in martial arts I'm afraid his #1 would have to be Aikido. But he is a dog brother now too ( Mongolian Dog )

Anyone can have a bad day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2a6Phqwj4 (faint hearted beware)

HL1978
11-13-2012, 09:25 AM
Hey Chris,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELN-DQI5qc#t=2m17s

he appears before at 1m10s and again later. So, he credits the work he's done on IS to allow him to pull this off. And if you tally his hours training in martial arts I'm afraid his #1 would have to be Aikido. But he is a dog brother now too ( Mongolian Dog )

Another guy, Forrest Chang is someone who has put in a lot of work and training, can speak the language, and can understand the context of the chinese in martial arts too, and a very intelligent human being. Stupid Jin Tricks is a list of things that you should be able to do without training to do them if using internal stuff. The brain is a very plastic thing, no magic , no woowoo but sitll very plastic and trainable. Over time; with good guideance. He's worth meeting , but you'll have to be in the context of chinese IMA , I dont think he's very interested in aikido at all.

And I stand by what I said, human bodies are human bodies and scientific inquiry is a process. Stuff not understood will be better understood. That's all.

CK is in a bunch of dog brothers videos, though his judo comp videos are not for public consumption. He does some pretty nifty stuff against much bigger guys.

Rob Watson
11-13-2012, 09:55 AM
Anyone can have a bad day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2a6Phqwj4 (faint hearted beware)

And has been said before ... fighting and IP/aiki etc are different. Fighting with aiki is different. Not to mention fighting with edged weapons is not to be trifled with (even if the edges are dull).

Alfonso
11-13-2012, 10:34 AM
regardless, this guy stepped up and proved himself. He even fought a pro MMA match and won. Does this mean invincible warrior? No , but it goes to show that marshmallows and butterflies it's not.

Tin Tran
11-13-2012, 12:34 PM
No , but it goes to show that marshmallows and butterflies it's not.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/08/us/dog-brothers-martial-arts/index.html

Jump to 3:33 at the CNN clip above and take a look at the effect of his punch on the other guy. As Alfonso pointed out, Mongolian Dog is a modest gentleman, and he is guided by the "be friends at the end of the day" mantra that is recited at each gathering.

Tin

Alfonso
11-13-2012, 01:04 PM
Another modest guy , Tin Tran has put in considerable time and effort in the internal strength department, and is also smarter than your average bear. You could do worse than meet and talk to him (actually you did do worse, you came and talked to me) Tin has a better analytical mind than mine for sure, and since he's not going to bring it up either, a grappler too. Both CK and Tin have posted here before and been ignored off hand, I would like to point that out, maybe a little searching through aikiweb will help you get some more useful information with which to keep on filling out the details about what the fuss is all about.

ChrisHein
11-13-2012, 01:38 PM
Alfonso,
I don't want you to think, and it sounds like from your posts you do, that I don't like Chinese internal marital arts. I do, I have trained seriously in them. One of my teachers who I hold in great esteem is an internal marital arts expert. I like Chinese internal.

But it's not what people want to make it out to be. It's not going to solve all your martial arts problems. If you want to learn how to use a system, you're going to have to spar and train hard with the system, there is no way around that. The internal model is an interesting one, some people might like using it to describe things, or learn things. However it's not describing you teaching anything that can't be found in modern athletics.

I'm not against Chinese internal, I'm against silly claims.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-13-2012, 02:05 PM
regardless, this guy stepped up and proved himself. He even fought a pro MMA match and won. Does this mean invincible warrior? No , but it goes to show that marshmallows and butterflies it's not.

Props to him. I hope the guy serves as an example.

From what I remember of his posts here, the guy was nice and sensible. IMO, is the people who seems to act as if they are in a cult the ones that make exchanges about IP/IS almost impossible.

Alfonso
11-13-2012, 02:10 PM
Alfonso,
I don't want you to think, and it sounds like from your posts you do, that I don't like Chinese internal marital arts. I do, I have trained seriously in them. One of my teachers who I hold in great esteem is an internal marital arts expert. I like Chinese internal.

But it's not what people want to make it out to be. It's not going to solve all your martial arts problems. If you want to learn how to use a system, you're going to have to spar and train hard with the system, there is no way around that. The internal model is an interesting one, some people might like using it to describe things, or learn things. However it's not describing you teaching anything that can't be found in modern athletics.

I'm not against Chinese internal, I'm against silly claims.

Yeah, I'm trying not to make any.

In any case fun discussion as always. BTW Chris is a really good aikidoka and a really nice guy. Since I'm embarassing people I thought I'd add that.

ChrisHein
11-13-2012, 02:14 PM
In any case fun discussion as always. BTW Chris is a really good aikidoka and a really nice guy. Since I'm embarassing people I thought I'd add that.

I'm almost positive that is the only time I've seen something like that in the middle of an IP/IT/IS thread! HA! Thanks.

Alfonso
11-13-2012, 02:27 PM
Props to him. I hope the guy serves as an example.

From what I remember of his posts here, the guy was nice and sensible. IMO, is the people who seems to act as if they are in a cult the ones that make exchanges about IP/IS almost impossible.

like Niven said
"There is no cause so right that one cannot find a fool following it."

Marc Abrams
11-13-2012, 02:53 PM
Alfonso,
I don't want you to think, and it sounds like from your posts you do, that I don't like Chinese internal marital arts. I do, I have trained seriously in them. One of my teachers who I hold in great esteem is an internal marital arts expert. I like Chinese internal.

But it's not what people want to make it out to be. It's not going to solve all your martial arts problems. If you want to learn how to use a system, you're going to have to spar and train hard with the system, there is no way around that. The internal model is an interesting one, some people might like using it to describe things, or learn things. However it's not describing you teaching anything that can't be found in modern athletics.

I'm not against Chinese internal, I'm against silly claims.

Chris:

With all due respect, you start threads with foregone conclusions, which makes you are doing troll-like in nature. I have learned from, trained with, and taught very high level athletes. What they do, what they learned and what they teach have nothing to do with the IP stuff. Far too many people have tried pointing this out to you. You approach this from a closed-minded perspective. Why don't you just walk away from pretending to explore this arena when you simply refuse to budge from you position of labeling things as "silly claims." Go on training in the manner that you chose in peace and stop trying to instigate things from a closed-minded perspective. You appear to be a far better person than how you are coming across in the threads that you start in regards to IP.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

ChrisHein
11-13-2012, 03:01 PM
Mark,
I just want to talk about what it is you guys are doing. You can train however you like as well. But when we come to a forum, we are here to discuss, not just advertise.

To say I have no understanding in this area, is not only insulting, but very untrue. If you would like to talk about Aikido, I have quite a lot of experience. If you would like to talk about competing, and sparring I have done a lot of that too. If you would like to talk about Chinese internal, again I have spent a lot of time doing that with a known authority.

Now if what the "IP" group is doing is not one of those things, then perhaps your right. If this is something you invented and didn't come from Aikido, martial practice, or Chinese internal, you very well could be right. But if you are talking about any of those things above listed, I do have a fair amount of experience with them.

Now I have not yet met one of your inner circle, you are correct.

Marc Abrams
11-13-2012, 04:19 PM
Mark,
I just want to talk about what it is you guys are doing. You can train however you like as well. But when we come to a forum, we are here to discuss, not just advertise.

To say I have no understanding in this area, is not only insulting, but very untrue. If you would like to talk about Aikido, I have quite a lot of experience. If you would like to talk about competing, and sparring I have done a lot of that too. If you would like to talk about Chinese internal, again I have spent a lot of time doing that with a known authority.

Now if what the "IP" group is doing is not one of those things, then perhaps your right. If this is something you invented and didn't come from Aikido, martial practice, or Chinese internal, you very well could be right. But if you are talking about any of those things above listed, I do have a fair amount of experience with them.

Now I have not yet met one of your inner circle, you are correct.

Chris:

I was directly referring to your reference regarding high level athletes and IP. You have made a claim and have even referenced Mr. Sigman as somehow supporting your claim, while others who directly train with him say that this is not what he believes. If you somehow equate IP with high level athletics, then I do believe that you are not there yet to fully understand what you think that you know. I frankly think that it is unfortunate that Mr. Harden will not allow you to attend one of his seminars. That leaves Mr. Sigman and Ark for you to experience (based upon the comments from others). When you actually get some hands on with one of them (hopefully more) you might actually open your mind up rather than looking to support your foregone conclusions. I am not the first person who has said that and certainly am unlikely to be the last. I am not trying to insult you or your experience base. I find you are the person who is pretending to have a discussion and use it as a venue to hold to your conclusions.

As to me, I have invented nothing and do not have some kind of mythical inner circle. I do get my out and explore what is out there. I come into those encounters with some believes that I test out. I have been pleasantly surprised with most of those experiences and they lead me to continue to keep an open mind and train harder. The biggest impediment that prevents a person from learning is what they believe that they already know.

I am sorry if my direct approach comes across as an insult to you. I thought that I made myself clear that I think that you are a good person who is not coming across that way in these threads.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

ChrisHein
11-13-2012, 04:50 PM
Thanks for the thoughtful reply Marc, (also sorry that I misspelled your name in my first reply)

As far as my conclusions go.
It's like anything else, if someone presents something that doesn't sound correct, you question it. If the answers given sound incorrect, you counter the answer in order to probe more deeply.

I do understand your argument that I haven't "felt" one of the few people who are deemed to have this special ability, that's what I meant by "your inner circle". Now it may have been incorrect for me to say "your inner circle", perhaps "the inner circle" would have been better. But the idea here is, there are only a very limited number of people (you listed only three, but there may be just over 10) that one can "feel" in order to understand this. That is why you claim I can't possibly "get it".

However if what they ("the inner circle") are describing is basically Chinese internal martial arts, I am familiar with that, and have "felt that". Now if they are doing something different then that, maybe you have a point. If it's something very new that this inner circle is doing, something that is not related to Chinese internal, then I'm just going to have to give that a try.

So if it's Chinese internal, let's talk about that, because I've felt it and know about it. If it's something new, something that's not Chinese internal, then I'll have to try that, and I think I'm going to get a couple chances in 2013.

Dave de Vos
11-14-2012, 12:15 PM
However if what they ("the inner circle") are describing is basically Chinese internal martial arts, I am familiar with that, and have "felt that". Now if they are doing something different then that, maybe you have a point. If it's something very new that this inner circle is doing, something that is not related to Chinese internal, then I'm just going to have to give that a try.

So if it's Chinese internal, let's talk about that, because I've felt it and know about it. If it's something new, something that's not Chinese internal, then I'll have to try that, and I think I'm going to get a couple chances in 2013.

In my understanding, it's not a martial art. It's something that can be felt in some teachers of internal chinese martial arts and in a few teachers who haven't studied internal chinese martial arts at all.

One can be a great martial artist, a great athlete and a great teacher and not have these internal qualities and abilities.

Tom Verhoeven
11-14-2012, 01:09 PM
In my understanding, it's not a martial art. It's something that can be felt in some teachers of internal chinese martial arts and in a few teachers who haven't studied internal chinese martial arts at all.


I agree, it is not something that is limited to martial arts only. It can be felt with teachers of the Chinese arts and with teachers that have no experience with the Chinese martial arts.
And although I agree that there are not many who can teach it - there are a lot more teachers with these abilities then often is suggested here on this forum.

One can be a great martial artist, a great athlete and a great teacher and not have these internal qualities and abilities.
I do not agree at all ! Your statement goes against all Taoist and Buddhist basic ideas.

Tom

Dave de Vos
11-14-2012, 01:20 PM
One can be a great martial artist, a great athlete and a great teacher and not have these internal qualities and abilities.
I do not agree at all ! Your statement goes against all Taoist and Buddhist basic ideas.


So you agree with Chris that good athletes have these internal qualities and abilities?

Tom Verhoeven
11-14-2012, 04:28 PM
So you agree with Chris that good athletes have these internal qualities and abilities?
You went from great athletes to good athletes. Why would you do a thing like that?

If you study Chinese philosophy you will find that having a great skill is related to having a certain attitude, a certain quality that in many aspects is similar to what we would call a gentleman, a scholar, or in general what we would call chivalrous behavior. Your original ki is by nature sort of rough. Through shugyo you polish the ki and it expresses itself by good behavior, a sense for harmony (to name just some of the qualities) and in your particular skill. It does not matter at all what the particular skill is. So if someone specializes in an athletic activity then that can be his shugyo - if he is considered great at it, than his ki must also be very finely polished. It should show in his behavior and his skill. Your skill could be anything; Aikido, Shodo, Shinto shugyo, etc.

If you look at old athletes that were champions in their time, then you will notice that their stamina and physical strength is no longer the same as it was before. I just read that the Brazilian football player Pele had to go to hospital. He was a great athlete, but it would be unthinkable that he would nowadays manage to play a full match or that he would join a team of pro's in their twenty's. Yet if the task would be; take the ball and try to go passed him, just about everyone will have a hard time doing it. According to Chinese philosophy this is because his ki is still refined and polished. And by the way - Pele is very much a gentleman.
In a similar way you should be able to recognize the polished skills of a ceramist, calligrapher, archer - even if he is aging.

Does this mean that I agree with Chris? Well, I do not know - it seems to me that he is still searching for answers and is trying to come up with the right questions.

What I do see on this forum are many statements that are quite vague about what IP / IS is or how to attain it. Often it is not even clear if with IP / IS is meant ki or something else all together. Fact is that many, if not most of the statements on IP / IS have very little or no relationship to the original Taoist or Buddhist ideas on this subject. No wonder that there is so much confusion.
At the same time I also sense a certain reluctance to answer Chris' questions. The much heard remark "It has to be felt", although I agree with it in principle, is starting to sound like a cop out and an argumentum ad nauseam. Besides, if it is about ki, then it is not so much about feeling at all.
More importantly, in the passed 2500 years there have been so many books written adding more and more knowledge over the centuries, that it is odd to see the people who claim the most experience in this, be so reluctant to share their knowledge about IP /IS in this thread. It does not seem gentleman-like behavior that should come with true shugyo.

Tom

gregstec
11-14-2012, 05:14 PM
What I do see on this forum are many statements that are quite vague about what IP / IS is or how to attain it.....

Tom

OK, fair enough, I am going to throw this out for what it's worth - it is my view on things and not necessarily how others that are studying IP/IS look at things.

I like to look at it this way:

IS - Internal Strength or Internal Skill? I think both terms can be used when discussing what we are doing - so, I think I will differentiate by IStr for strength and ISkl for skill.
ISkl - I see internal skill simply as a label depicting some level of Internal strength and/or power.
IStr - I see internal strength as a quantified capacity of a potential internal force; i.e. How strong are you, etc.

IP - I see internal power as a quality of use of an internal strength force. As in the formula Power = force (strength) times acceleration (speed) in other words, a less strong but faster person can delivery more power than a slow strong person. IMO, there are many forms and levels of IP with Tohie's Ki tests being on a lower level and Takeda's AIKI being on a very high level.

AIKI - as mentioned above, I see AIKI as a high level form of IP - it is the joining of opposing forces (in/yo, yin/yang) within the body to establish internal balance in a static as well as a dynamic state.

In summary, we are working on increasing our ISkl by developing our IStr to be manifested by IP via the AIKI methodology. Simple, right? - let's break it down a little. First we need to develop a body ready for AIKI, we do that by training for internal strength and internal power. These are two different things, and as in the development of external muscle strength and muscle power, there are different activities for each development. In the internal strength model, you need to develop a strong connected body that is instant on with the transmission of energy to all parts all the time; this is where the capability of having one thing moves, all things move comes from. The solo exercises we do for this are the ones that get our fascia, ligaments, and tendons more engaged and moving together. Next we need to develop internal power so you can do something with the internal strength/force - as mentioned, power is a quality that utilizes the strength/force; where the most prevalent quality is acceleration/speed. This is where the exercises we do that focus on flexibility and range of movement come in. Then, we take that AIKI ready body and apply the attributes of the AIKI model to direct the internal activities required for the use and manifestation of soft power.

Anyway, just the way I like to categorize the various aspects of what we are doing and bring them all together to provide the functions we are trying to accomplish - of course, other views may be different.

Greg

Dave de Vos
11-14-2012, 05:25 PM
You went from great athletes to good athletes. Why would you do a thing like that?


I see your point. I didn't notice that I changed the qualification.
But to me it's a matter of degree from good to great. I mean, if a great athlete would have great IP, a good athlete would have good IP.


If you study Chinese philosophy you will find that having a great skill is related to having a certain attitude, a certain quality that in many aspects is similar to what we would call a gentleman, a scholar, or in general what we would call chivalrous behavior. Your original ki is by nature sort of rough. Through shugyo you polish the ki and it expresses itself by good behavior, a sense for harmony (to name just some of the qualities) and in your particular skill. It does not matter at all what the particular skill is. So if someone specializes in an athletic activity then that can be his shugyo - if he is considered great at it, than his ki must also be very finely polished. It should show in his behavior and his skill. Your skill could be anything; Aikido, Shodo, Shinto shugyo, etc.

If you look at old athletes that were champions in their time, then you will notice that their stamina and physical strength is no longer the same as it was before. I just read that the Brazilian football player Pele had to go to hospital. He was a great athlete, but it would be unthinkable that he would nowadays manage to play a full match or that he would join a team of pro's in their twenty's. Yet if the task would be; take the ball and try to go passed him, just about everyone will have a hard time doing it. According to Chinese philosophy this is because his ki is still refined and polished. And by the way - Pele is very much a gentleman.
In a similar way you should be able to recognize the polished skills of a ceramist, calligrapher, archer - even if he is aging.

Does this mean that I agree with Chris? Well, I do not know - it seems to me that he is still searching for answers and is trying to come up with the right questions.

What I do see on this forum are many statements that are quite vague about what IP / IS is or how to attain it. Often it is not even clear if with IP / IS is meant ki or something else all together. Fact is that many, if not most of the statements on IP / IS have very little or no relationship to the original Taoist or Buddhist ideas on this subject. No wonder that there is so much confusion.
At the same time I also sense a certain reluctance to answer Chris' questions. The much heard remark "It has to be felt", although I agree with it in principle, is starting to sound like a cop out and an argumentum ad nauseam. Besides, if it is about ki, then it is not so much about feeling at all.
More importantly, in the passed 2500 years there have been so many books written adding more and more knowledge over the centuries, that it is odd to see the people who claim the most experience in this, be so reluctant to share their knowledge about IP /IS in this thread. It does not seem gentleman-like behavior that should come with true shugyo.

Tom

I think the IP / IS of this thread would be called neijin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neijing) in chinese martial arts. Which to me seems a more specific concept than the Taoist or Buddhist qualities you are referring to. So I don't think that talking about these more general qualities will reduce the confusion about the more specific topic of neijin. In my opinion neijin has little to do with refined craftmanship and charismatic virtue.

phitruong
11-14-2012, 05:54 PM
What I do see on this forum are many statements that are quite vague about what IP / IS is or how to attain it. Often it is not even clear if with IP / IS is meant ki or something else all together. Fact is that many, if not most of the statements on IP / IS have very little or no relationship to the original Taoist or Buddhist ideas on this subject. No wonder that there is so much confusion.
At the same time I also sense a certain reluctance to answer Chris' questions. The much heard remark "It has to be felt", although I agree with it in principle, is starting to sound like a cop out and an argumentum ad nauseam. Besides, if it is about ki, then it is not so much about feeling at all.
More importantly, in the passed 2500 years there have been so many books written adding more and more knowledge over the centuries, that it is odd to see the people who claim the most experience in this, be so reluctant to share their knowledge about IP /IS in this thread. It does not seem gentleman-like behavior that should come with true shugyo.

Tom

tom have you a chance to look back at some discussion on IP/IS stuffs? first and foremost, IP/IS that we are talking about here isn't a spiritual thing or an attitude thing. It's a body, physical skill thing. since it's a physical skill thing, we would prefer the IHTBF approach first to put folks on the same sort of understanding, before intellectual discussion needs to happen. we have discussed with chris about this last year too. same thing happened. he insisted that he know what IP/IS is and that modern atheletic approaches can be better. we said that his knowledge of IP/Is isn't the same as various folks and we also know what atheletics are about, because we aren't some backass country folks who lived in the wood somewhere in timbuktu. also, we have many folks, i do mean many with lots of experience (again we aren't some country pumpkin who didn't know which end are the head and which are the ass), who went out of their comfort zone and challenged their beliefs, and came to similar conclusion. when a bunch of folks, not one, not two, but quite a few, and many have lots of experiences, said the same thing, you might want to stop and pay attention and learn to listen. when folks kept on arguing, then they get ignore, at least by me. when they stop and went out and experienced first hand, then we have some common ground to start a discussion. even the folks who do IP/IS argued among ourselves, but the arguments weren't about IP/IS, but mostly on the how to practice certain things, why we practice a certain way, and so on. why mike sigman focus on certain things? why dan does things differently from different perspective? why ark focus on the frame and does what he does and how does that works? and so on and so forth. we don't argue about IP/IS idea.

btw, i don't know about other folks, but i never claim to be a gentleman. it's actually the opposite. i kinda prefer the barbarian meself, since the blood of genghis khan flow in me somewhere. every now and then i have the urge to take my horde (two boys) on a plunder and pillage trip to the local grocery. and every time my wife would yell at me to get eggs, milk and bread. i don't understand it. what can you do with eggs, milk and bread? ok, maybe french toasts. :)

HL1978
11-14-2012, 07:45 PM
And although I agree that there are not many who can teach it - there are a lot more teachers with these abilities then often is suggested here on this forum.

I think that many here would agree with this statement, but some teachers will focus more on it than others. Some may have the knowledge, but spend more time on applications, or teaching forms, than explicitly teaching how to power those applications or forms, quite simply because thats a lot easier to teach.

To give an example, you don't have to just see Chen Xiao Wang, at a seminar to feel this stuff. Chen Bing and other Chens will show you similiar stuff, they just might not be as "pure" in the motion which isn't a bad thing since they probably know way more than anyone doing this as an amateur. If anyone out there goes to a Chen tai chi seminar, go to one on silk reeling, not the forms based ones, unless you are more concerned with choreography.

Tom Verhoeven
11-15-2012, 11:20 AM
I see your point. I didn't notice that I changed the qualification.
But to me it's a matter of degree from good to great. I mean, if a great athlete would have great IP, a good athlete would have good IP.

I think the IP / IS of this thread would be called neijin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neijing) in chinese martial arts. Which to me seems a more specific concept than the Taoist or Buddhist qualities you are referring to. So I don't think that talking about these more general qualities will reduce the confusion about the more specific topic of neijin. In my opinion neijin has little to do with refined craftmanship and charismatic virtue.


Well, it is always nice to have an opinion.
Ever read Plato's view on this?

The choice here is
1. to see IP / IS as a specific way of training that has no relationship with Taoist martial arts like T'ai Chi Chuan or that at most uses a part of it, like a structure to get the notion of IP / IS across.
I have no problem with this whatsoever - but it does raises questions on what the nature of this IP / IS is. The answer "it has to be felt" has no scientific value whatsoever. Someone must be able to show some scientific equation or some theory with empirical evidence. Otherwise IP / IS might just well be something like phlogiston or a new sort of Mesmerism.

Without a basic theory of what IP / IS is I find it presumptuous to equate IP / IS with Aiki.

2. IP /IS is the same as neijin. Neijin is a Taoist concept. With it comes the whole Chinese Taoist philosophy - if you want to understand neijin, then you will have to get some basic understanding of Taoism. It has nothing to do with one's own opinion or preference.
Just to add to this; Buddhism has criticized this Taoist concept, so to get a more complete understanding it would help if you also get a basic understanding of Buddhism.

If we are talking about Neijin then the concept is fairly easy to understand as there is a solid theory that we can refer to. And any discussion about neijin should therefor offer no problem.

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
11-15-2012, 11:23 AM
I think that many here would agree with this statement, but some teachers will focus more on it than others. Some may have the knowledge, but spend more time on applications, or teaching forms, than explicitly teaching how to power those applications or forms, quite simply because thats a lot easier to teach.

To give an example, you don't have to just see Chen Xiao Wang, at a seminar to feel this stuff. Chen Bing and other Chens will show you similiar stuff, they just might not be as "pure" in the motion which isn't a bad thing since they probably know way more than anyone doing this as an amateur. If anyone out there goes to a Chen tai chi seminar, go to one on silk reeling, not the forms based ones, unless you are more concerned with choreography.

Sure, I am fine with this.

I will even go further - I know of some who understand it but refuse to teach it.

Tom

Chris Li
11-15-2012, 11:44 AM
Sure, I am fine with this.

I will even go further - I know of some who understand it but refuse to teach it.

Tom

Sure, ever heard of Sokaku Takeda? :D

Anyway, there have been quite a few definitions of IP/IS over the years, if you search through the forums. There's also a pretty good summary at http://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/what-is-an-internal-art/

For "It has to be felt" - well, it's pretty had to teach anything in a detailed manner by correspondance - try doing it with conventional Aikido and you run into the same problems. The more subtle and complex the skill the harder it is.

Best,

Chris

Tom Verhoeven
11-15-2012, 12:19 PM
tom have you a chance to look back at some discussion on IP/IS stuffs? first and foremost, IP/IS that we are talking about here isn't a spiritual thing or an attitude thing. It's a body, physical skill thing. since it's a physical skill thing, we would prefer the IHTBF approach first to put folks on the same sort of understanding, before intellectual discussion needs to happen. we have discussed with chris about this last year too. same thing happened. he insisted that he know what IP/IS is and that modern atheletic approaches can be better. we said that his knowledge of IP/Is isn't the same as various folks and we also know what atheletics are about, because we aren't some backass country folks who lived in the wood somewhere in timbuktu. also, we have many folks, i do mean many with lots of experience (again we aren't some country pumpkin who didn't know which end are the head and which are the ass), who went out of their comfort zone and challenged their beliefs, and came to similar conclusion. when a bunch of folks, not one, not two, but quite a few, and many have lots of experiences, said the same thing, you might want to stop and pay attention and learn to listen. when folks kept on arguing, then they get ignore, at least by me. when they stop and went out and experienced first hand, then we have some common ground to start a discussion. even the folks who do IP/IS argued among ourselves, but the arguments weren't about IP/IS, but mostly on the how to practice certain things, why we practice a certain way, and so on. why mike sigman focus on certain things? why dan does things differently from different perspective? why ark focus on the frame and does what he does and how does that works? and so on and so forth. we don't argue about IP/IS idea.

btw, i don't know about other folks, but i never claim to be a gentleman. it's actually the opposite. i kinda prefer the barbarian meself, since the blood of genghis khan flow in me somewhere. every now and then i have the urge to take my horde (two boys) on a plunder and pillage trip to the local grocery. and every time my wife would yell at me to get eggs, milk and bread. i don't understand it. what can you do with eggs, milk and bread? ok, maybe french toasts. :)

Phi,
When you say that IP / IS is only a body, physical thing you do realize that you are getting your feet into a Cartesian mudpool ? Modern top-athletes are moving away from this kind of thinking. And so are surgeons and biologists. The human body is not a machine. You cannot separate the body from the mind / spirit. Science has moved on since Descartes.

I get your frustration - but don't you think that others on this same forum are just as frustrated with IP /IS proponents as they make a lot of claims without being able to back it up with anything else but "it has to be felt" ? Or how about the IS / IP proponents that dismiss almost every teacher in the world because they do not have it or show it? Names have been mentioned or hinted at that had a major influence on the spreading of Aikido - but now we are suppose to accept that they did not understand it or did not even learn anything from the founder? And this comes from people who have never seen or met the founder, let alone train with him ! How frustrating do you think that is?
I could easily go on and on about the frustrations that are at times - but too often - created by the IP / IS proponents. It drives good people away from what otherwise could be an interesting topic to discuss.

And I think it is possible to discuss IS / IP. Unless IP /IS is something from a sci-fi novel. But if it is human, then it should be possible for other humans to recognize it from their own experiences. They may not fully understand it, but they may have gotten a glimpse of it. As an Aikido teacher I find it important that when this happens I assure my students that they indeed got a glimpse of or even more. I do not understand why IS / IP proponents then on this forum tell people they understand nothing and that the IP / IS proponents are the only ones with expertise. It is cult-like behavior.

It is not about claiming to be a gentleman - it comes with the suit.

Btw, Gengis Khan stayed in his cozy tent with a bunch of half dressed ladies while his men were doing all the bloody work. I on the other hand have the blood of Grutte Pier running through my veins - now that was a warrior!

All the best,

Tom

Chris Li
11-15-2012, 12:45 PM
I get your frustration - but don't you think that others on this same forum are just as frustrated with IP /IS proponents as they make a lot of claims without being able to back it up with anything else but "it has to be felt" ? Or how about the IS / IP proponents that dismiss almost every teacher in the world because they do not have it or show it? Names have been mentioned or hinted at that had a major influence on the spreading of Aikido - but now we are suppose to accept that they did not understand it or did not even learn anything from the founder? And this comes from people who have never seen or met the founder, let alone train with him ! How frustrating do you think that is?
I could easily go on and on about the frustrations that are at times - but too often - created by the IP / IS proponents. It drives good people away from what otherwise could be an interesting topic to discuss.

I, for one, have never made a comment about anyone specific "not having it", as for general comments - well, I've felt almost all of the major players.

I've spoken to many, many students of the founder who stated themselves in no uncertain terms that they didn't understand what was going on or how the founder did what he did, take that as you will. It's also documented in many public written interviews.

I know that it's frusturating, but a large part of the discussion, like Stan Pranin's Iwama discussion, is predicated on the argument that something went wrong in the transmission. Agree or not, it's hard to deny the fact that a strong argument for that can and has been made - Stan Pranin's body of work alone supports it.

Frustrated because someone hasn't met the founder? Sounds like you're making a "it has to be felt" argument to me. :)

Of course, the people becoming "frustrated" haven't met or trained with the founder either, so they have no more basis for their opinion than anybody else, if you follow that argument.

Best,

Chris

phitruong
11-15-2012, 12:55 PM
Phi,
When you say that IP / IS is only a body, physical thing you do realize that you are getting your feet into a Cartesian mudpool ? Modern top-athletes are moving away from this kind of thinking. And so are surgeons and biologists. The human body is not a machine. You cannot separate the body from the mind / spirit. Science has moved on since Descartes.

Tom

tom, may i direct you to this thread http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21943 please read through the posts then we can continue to discuss. btw, i had my hands on Saotome sensei and took ukemi. i had more frame of reference than you think. other folks, proponents of IP/IS, have similar experiences with various high level (as in Ueshiba Sr uchideshi) aikido teachers and other martial arts. their combined experiences are staggering. as i said before, when a bunch of very experienced folks said the same thing, there might be some truth in it, at least one should pause and ponder.

Tom Verhoeven
11-15-2012, 01:45 PM
Sure, ever heard of Sokaku Takeda? :D

Anyway, there have been quite a few definitions of IP/IS over the years, if you search through the forums. There's also a pretty good summary at http://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/what-is-an-internal-art/

For "It has to be felt" - well, it's pretty had to teach anything in a detailed manner by correspondance - try doing it with conventional Aikido and you run into the same problems. The more subtle and complex the skill the harder it is.

Best,

Chris

Well, there is a contradiction for you. The link that you gave here leads to an excellent introduction of the inner arts. Several of the important concepts are mentioned and even a bit explained.

So it proves my point - it can be discussed.
It can also be described, just as we can describe just about anything in this world.

It proves another point - several proponents of IP / IS do not seem to know these basic concepts (as mentioned on the website) or are even against it. Some have even expressed this clearly in this very thread. At the same time they claim knowledge that nobody else has. That is a contradiction too.

If someone does not understand these basic concepts then a more modest attitude would be more fitting.

Tom

ChrisHein
11-15-2012, 01:49 PM
I think a summery of the argument is something like this.

"IP" crowd-
Without feeling/experiencing something, that you have no previous experience with, you cannot hope to understand it.

Non-"IP", or "IP" curious crowd-
There is no reason to believe that there is something to feel/experience, if you can't give an explanation/proof that there is a something at all.

Let's agree that both of these arguments are fair, because they are. Then let's accept a fact, because of the nature of Aikiweb/the internet, we can never feel/experience what is described as "IP" through this media. So for a fact, we are limited to explanations/examinable proof of the phenomenon. This limits us to formulas, video's, do at home tests/experiments etc.

If you can't experience it directly (which is the case here on Aikiweb), and you want to talk about it, we will have to try other methods. Otherwise we're stuck with- "it's true. no it's not".

I personally would love to talk about explanations, proofs, and things we can examine. That is what is totally possible here on Aikiweb, and since this is the place we all are right now, shouldn't we be looking to do that?

Chris Li
11-15-2012, 01:57 PM
Well, there is a contradiction for you. The link that you gave here leads to an excellent introduction of the inner arts. Several of the important concepts are mentioned and even a bit explained.

So it proves my point - it can be discussed.
It can also be described, just as we can describe just about anything in this world.

It proves another point - several proponents of IP / IS do not seem to know these basic concepts (as mentioned on the website) or are even against it. Some have even expressed this clearly in this very thread. At the same time they claim knowledge that nobody else has. That is a contradiction too.

If someone does not understand these basic concepts then a more modest attitude would be more fitting.

Tom

Nobody ever said that it couldn't be discussed, you're setting up a strawman.

Like anything else, there's a point beyond which that becomes impractical at a distance, especially if the two people in the discussion don't have a common context for discussion.

I don't see how that link proves that anybody understands or doesn't understand anything, you'll have to be more specific.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
11-15-2012, 02:01 PM
If you can't experience it directly (which is the case here on Aikiweb), and you want to talk about it, we will have to try other methods. Otherwise we're stuck with- "it's true. no it's not".

And so --- Dan's out giving seminars, Mike's out giving seminar, Ark's out giving seminars, Sam's out giving seminars. Seems to me like the method to try is go find out.

Discussing Mexican food only goes so far, at some point you've got to eat the Taco.

Best,

Chris

phitruong
11-15-2012, 02:16 PM
Discussing Mexican food only goes so far, at some point you've got to eat the Taco.

Chris

you guys should continue to discuss the food, that leave me to eat the taco. :D

this almost as good as light bulb joke.

Chris Li
11-15-2012, 02:21 PM
you guys should continue to discuss the food, that leave me to eat the taco. :D

this almost as good as light bulb joke.

Yo quiero Taco Bulb.

How Many Dogs Does It Take to Change a Light Bulb?


Golden Retriever: The sun is shining, the day is young, we've got our
whole lives ahead of us, and you're inside worrying about a stupid
burned-out light bulb?
Border Collie: Just one. And I'll replace any wiring that's not up to code.
Dachshund: I can't reach the stupid lamp!
Toy Poodle: I'll just blow in the Border collie's ear and he'll do
it. By the time he finishes rewiring the house, my nails will be dry.
Rottweiler: Go Ahead! Make me!
Shi-tzu: Puh-leeze, dah-ling. Let the servants. . .
Lab: Oh, me, me!!! Pleeeeeeze let me change the light bulb! Can I?
Can I? Huh? Huh? Can I?
Malamute: Let the Border collie do it. You can feed me while he's busy.
Cocker Spaniel: Why change it? I can still pee on the carpet in the dark.
Doberman Pinscher: While it's dark, I'm going to sleep on the couch.
Mastiff: Mastiffs are NOT afraid of the dark.
Hound Dog: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Chihuahua: Yo quiero Taco Bulb.
Pointer: I see it, there it is, right there...
Greyhound: It isn't moving. Who cares?
Australian Shepherd: Put all the light bulbs in a little circle...
Old English Sheep Dog: Light bulb? Light bulb? That thing I just ate was a light bulb?


Best,

Chris

ChrisHein
11-15-2012, 02:31 PM
And so --- Dan's out giving seminars, Mike's out giving seminar, Ark's out giving seminars, Sam's out giving seminars. Seems to me like the method to try is go find out.

Discussing Mexican food only goes so far, at some point you've got to eat the Taco.

Best,

Chris

Sounds like there are 4 people out giving seminars, that's great. But we are HERE, and we can talk about it now. I'm not trying to get out of going to a seminar, I'm just here right now. So if anyone is interested in talking about it, what's the problem with that?

Chris Li
11-15-2012, 02:41 PM
Sounds like there are 4 people out giving seminars, that's great. But we are HERE, and we can talk about it now. I'm not trying to get out of going to a seminar, I'm just here right now. So if anyone is interested in talking about it, what's the problem with that?

There isn't, and we have, but you've been having pretty much the same conversation for quite some time. Time to taste the taco, IMO.

Best,

Chris

chillzATL
11-15-2012, 02:57 PM
There isn't, and we have, but you've been having pretty much the same conversation for quite some time. Time to taste the taco, IMO.

Best,

Chris

He's not interested in the taco. He's had expertly made taco's, even made them himself and they're really just hamburgers.

Chris Li
11-15-2012, 03:01 PM
He's not interested in the taco. He's had expertly made taco's, even made them himself and they're really just hamburgers.

All you can eat - starting tomorrow in Japan (http://foodbeast.com/content/2012/11/14/burger-king-japan-does-all-you-can-eat-burgers-fries/)! :D

Best,

Chris

ChrisHein
11-15-2012, 03:10 PM
It's more like, I've had taco's, make taco's and someone else is describing another kind of taco I don't believe I've ever had. I'm asking what ingredients you use, and all you answer with is," just eat the taco". As soon as I can get to the restaurant, I'll have one. Until then I'd still like to know about the ingredients, and methods of preparation. If you don't want to talk to me about that, cool.

Brett Charvat
11-15-2012, 03:18 PM
But we are HERE, and we can talk about it now.

--But that's just it; we CAN'T talk about it now, because half of "we" (you) haven't experienced it and seem dead-set on explaining it away as something you already understand. I largely despise analogies, but it's something like the difference between Person A taking a sheet of notebook paper and crumpling it into a ball and throwing it across the room. Then Person B takes another identical sheet of paper, folds it into a paper airplane, and launches it across the room. Person A isn't wrong when they say "We both made a piece of paper fly across the room, so it's essentially the same!" but when Person B wants to have a discussion about aerodynamics, drag, and lift, things are going to get tricky for Person A unless someone can introduce them to the difference between their respective methods. We're all starting with pretty much similar bodies, that's true (the sheet of paper). And in the loosest sense we're doing "similar" things, but once you experience and understand the difference between a crumpled up ball and an aerodynamic craft, well....it's difficult to see them as even remotely similar.

ChrisHein
11-15-2012, 03:29 PM
Well then, I would say less then half of "we" (the people reading Aikiweb right now) have experienced it. So why even bother to bring it up here? Why not start IPweb and let only people who have had hands on experience join, and then you can all talk there?

I'm not saying to do that, but it's kind of how it feels. Again, if you don't want to talk to me about it, then cool.

Brett Charvat
11-15-2012, 03:33 PM
Well then, I would say less then half of "we" (the people reading Aikiweb right now) have experienced it. So why even bother to bring it up here?

--Aren't you the person who started this thread? :confused:

ChrisHein
11-15-2012, 03:35 PM
Yeah, because I want to talk about it. So, if you don't, because I don't have the necessary information to talk with you about it. Then maybe some of the other members will.

Tom Verhoeven
11-15-2012, 04:03 PM
tom, may i direct you to this thread http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21943 please read through the posts then we can continue to discuss. btw, i had my hands on Saotome sensei and took ukemi. i had more frame of reference than you think. other folks, proponents of IP/IS, have similar experiences with various high level (as in Ueshiba Sr uchideshi) aikido teachers and other martial arts. their combined experiences are staggering. as i said before, when a bunch of very experienced folks said the same thing, there might be some truth in it, at least one should pause and ponder.

Phi,
I did notice that thread before, but did not follow it as I did not like the discussion. Since you asked I have read the posts. Where do you want to go to with this?

I never questioned anyones frame of reference. I try to address the issue, the argumentation and not the person. I expect the same attitude from everyone else. I do not ask someone's curriculum vitae on Aikido or any of the other martial arts and I expect the same from others.

I am quite sure that the IP / IS proponents have a tremendous amount of experience. But did you somehow get the impression that I was a beginner?

Suppose I would make a list of my experiences, the teachers that I have trained with, the places where I have studied, the many special things that I have experienced.
Do you think that you then should at least pause and ponder when I say something?
Well, I don't. Pause, ponder and consider might be wise advice for my students in the dojo. But here on the internet it is about argumentation. If my argumentation is wrong then I want people to come up with solid counter-arguments. And if and where I can I will try to do the same.

Tom

Brett Charvat
11-15-2012, 04:20 PM
Yeah, because I want to talk about it. So, if you don't, because I don't have the necessary information to talk with you about it. Then maybe some of the other members will.

--Well, please don't get me wrong. Your possible lack of experience with IP isn't the reason I'm hesitant to talk about this training. I just really don't like talking about it because I'm still brand new at it myself, and I run a real risk of saying something that might send someone (including myself) off in a wrong direction. I guess my question becomes, given your previous posts regarding this stuff being available in regular athletics and your statement that you already get the basic gist of it.....what exactly do you want to talk about?

ChrisHein
11-15-2012, 05:35 PM
I would like to talk about why anyone thinks something different then normal athletic activity is going on.

MM
11-15-2012, 06:01 PM
I would like to talk about why anyone thinks something different then normal athletic activity is going on.

I started a few posts and then just deleted them. Chris, you started the conversations out to fail from the very beginning. You stated you have good experience in Chinese internals from a qualified Chinese internal teacher and know Chinese internals.

1. We don't want to talk about your teacher. I admire him, respect him, and given the chance, will train with him. But I do NOT want to drag his name into these conversations which is nearly impossible since you set yourself up as an authority via him. That kills a lot of the conversation.

2. There are hundreds of different Chinese martial arts out there. Even within the Chen lineages, teachers argue about internal methods and IP. Then it gets worse when you start tossing in other kinds of Chinese arts like bagua, xingyi, etc. Training in one lineage and then claiming knowledge of all Chinese internal arts is killing the conversation right from the beginning.

When people try to tell you that IP/aiki is different, you go back to either 1 or 2. Which then, pretty much, kills any chance at moving the conversation forward. Have you noticed how many people have bowed out already in the multiple threads you've participated in? They were trying to get you to open your mind. We all were. Several years, many threads later and nothing has changed ...

Mark

Brett Charvat
11-15-2012, 06:10 PM
I would like to talk about why anyone thinks something different then normal athletic activity is going on.

--OK, well I can tell you why I think so, but keep in mind it's just my own personal experience and your mileage may vary, and others will have other opinions, and all the other standard caveats. Anyway, here it is:

About three years ago I was fortunate enough to get the chance to meet and get tossed around a bit by a man named Kimura Tatsuo. For those not familiar, he was Sagawa Yukiyoshi's student, and wrote a book on Sagawa after the latter's death. Kimura applied something to me that I had never before felt, and I'll try to describe it. I would stand in any position I wished, and he would place his hands lightly on mine. He told me to resist however strongly I wished, and then he exhaled and I became instantly and startlingly off-balance, and then I was thrown. I'll try to make this as clear as I can via text, which is difficult; throughout the above process, I never felt him actually push me at all. Ever. Not one little tiny bit. There was zero change in the incoming force that I could detect. Nothing. Nada. It felt precisely as I already described. His hands lightly on mine, nothing changed, he exhaled, nothing changed, I was sharply and immediately off-balance, and then thrown. It felt a bit like an unseen hand was pulling my spine up and behind me from somewhere behind me.

For me, that was it. There was no going back after that. Once I'd seen and felt what was possible, everything about my training changed. Everything I wanted, everything I had thought aiki to be had been changed. Kimura had not done any nifty sweeping tenkan movements, hadn't thrown some half-assed atemi to my face to make me react so he could do something, hadn't relied on timing his movement to mine. He had simply done aiki, whatever that meant. And I wanted it. I still do. However, Kimura Tatsuo is not accepting new students currently. That's his business. All I could do is find others who possessed similar skills and try to attend their seminars, and that's exactly what I did and continue to do.

For me, that first step was really the most crucial. If I had never laid hands on anyone who could do it, I'd be skeptical as well. I understand people's skepticism, I really do. I had it myself once upon a time. But once I felt it, I could see without any doubt that it is indeed something different. It's not waza. It's not even good waza. It's not athleticism. It's not being stronger, or faster, or better at timing. It's just, in a word...aiki. It's a thing. Really and truly. Now, the easy thing for people to do is to write off my opinion as being that of a stupid, doddering old man who wouldn't know the difference, and that's fine. You can believe what you like. But I know the truth. It's real, it's a thing, and it's largely missing from most folks' training regimens. And I for one am working to correct that in mine.

phitruong
11-15-2012, 09:56 PM
Phi,
I did notice that thread before, but did not follow it as I did not like the discussion. Since you asked I have read the posts. Where do you want to go to with this?


if you read the posts, what information did i supply about my background, especially, when you mentioned that we aren't scientific about our answers?


I never questioned anyones frame of reference. I try to address the issue, the argumentation and not the person. I expect the same attitude from everyone else. I do not ask someone's curriculum vitae on Aikido or any of the other martial arts and I expect the same from others.


frame of reference is everything when we discuss topics that are complex. frame of reference allows one to know another what are their experience and understanding. if your frame of reference is algebra and mine is multi-variable calculus, then we aren't exactly match in our understanding. our discussion with chris is that we would like him to go and experience (yes, we said it has to be felt) with some of the aforementioned folks so that we could be in the same frame of reference, then we can have a more productive discussion.


I am quite sure that the IP / IS proponents have a tremendous amount of experience. But did you somehow get the impression that I was a beginner?


i don't ever assume anyone a beginner. what i mentioned about the experience of IP/IS proponents to let folks know that they aren't beginners who didn't know any better. and they all some how lost their mind and believed in magic. and that they have enough experience to know what is good and what is bad.


Suppose I would make a list of my experiences, the teachers that I have trained with, the places where I have studied, the many special things that I have experienced.
Do you think that you then should at least pause and ponder when I say something?
Well, I don't. Pause, ponder and consider might be wise advice for my students in the dojo. But here on the internet it is about argumentation. If my argumentation is wrong then I want people to come up with solid counter-arguments. And if and where I can I will try to do the same.

Tom

if only you then i might pause or i might not. but if there are a bunch of you say the same thing, then i would definitely pause and ponder. it's statistics. higher number of experience folks said the same thing, then the probability of that thing true is much higher than one or two person said it. and when they said "it has to be felt", and one or two person dismiss that, then i tend to go with the folks that said "it has to be felt".

ChrisHein
11-15-2012, 10:51 PM
Hey Brett,
Thank you for taking the time to share your story. The kind of thing you described is what turned lot's of us onto martial arts. As a student, often times your teacher will do something that seems well beyond explanation, and that is what drives us to train. I can remember a time that one of my teachers threw me against the mat so hard that I literally bounced, that was unbelievable. It can be impressive.

Now as a teacher myself, I sometimes do something that will blow one of my students away, they will just keep asking me what it is that I did. These mysteries can be very important. And I would not want to take them away from anyone.

However, whatever made these mysterious/amazing things happen, has an explanation, I would like to talk about the explanations, even if you're not right, even if no body knows what right is. I would like to talk about why you believe something does or does not exist.

ChrisHein
11-15-2012, 10:54 PM
Also,
I only sited my training as a reference as to what I've been exposed to. I would love to talk about these issues without concern as to a persons pedigree. I'm sorry if I made anyone feel excluded.

Alfonso
11-15-2012, 11:21 PM
I think Chris has a point, if you are not familiar with something it is overwhelming that first time, think of OODA loop and so on. That is an advantage as long as the other guy doesnt know whats going on. This is important in martial arts. Perhaps the only reason for secrecy.

I've had the luck of meeting a lot of the people in these disussions including Chris Hein. We're not all talking about the same things, though the topic is broad enough to encompass all these point of views. It s is not a waste of time to discuss these matters, and you have to admit there are very good questions that cant be summarily dismissed with a you'd have to be there.

There are undoubtedly more depths than all of us are aware of here. That's cool isn't it?

phitruong
11-16-2012, 06:19 AM
I've had the luck of meeting a lot of the people in these disussions including Chris Hein. We're not all talking about the same things, though the topic is broad enough to encompass all these point of views. It s is not a waste of time to discuss these matters, and you have to admit there are very good questions that cant be summarily dismissed with a you'd have to be there.

There are undoubtedly more depths than all of us are aware of here. That's cool isn't it?

i agreed. personally, i am not dismiss chris idea at all. i believed there is advantage in understanding what sport science has to offer. we need to be analytical about what we do, how we do it, and why we do it. we can't just accept things just because folks said so. damn, i started to sound like sigman. i need to fajin myself a couple of times to get that out. :)

with sport science and medicine, we knew how to make folks stronger, faster, more endurance, and so on. we can produce incredible atheletes that are almost superhuman. however, there are so many things we still don't know about. just look at the topics on fascia which only got a bit of attention recent years and aren't readily accepted by sport science yet. yet, the ancients knew and used it. take accupunture, for example, the ancients had map out the human neural network and came up a way to reprogram it by sticking needles at various network nodes, sort of sticking the needle =1, not sticking the needle = 0 or vice versa; sort of binary code reprograming a computer network. even today medical science, we still have no clue on how to deal with the human neural network. but medical science knew how signals transmit though the neural network, what chemical would affect it, and so on.

ok. i'll stop rambling now. please resume the discussion on IP.

chillzATL
11-16-2012, 07:01 AM
I would like to talk about why anyone thinks something different then normal athletic activity is going on.

Chris, as I mentioned in another thread. The chinese seem to have a different vocabulary for body usage in athletics vs. body usage in IS, but that aside, pick something and lets discuss it. Maybe we can use a football lineman as our test subject and discuss how they move vs. how someone with IS might do the same things?

gregstec
11-16-2012, 08:25 AM
Below are just a few things that came to mind as I have been reading this thread as well as a couple of others lately.

"There are people who, instead of listening to what is being said to them, are already listening to what they are going to say themselves." — Albert Guinon

"Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply." ― Stephen R. Covey

"It's a rare person who wants to hear what he doesn't want to hear." — Dick Cavett

"There's a big difference between showing interest and really taking interest." — Michael P. Nichols

"Effective listeners remember that "words have no meaning - people have meaning." The assignment of meaning to a term is an internal process; meaning comes from inside us. And although our experiences, knowledge and attitudes differ, we often misinterpret each other's messages while under the illusion that a common understanding has been achieved." — Larry Barker

Greg

chillzATL
11-16-2012, 08:42 AM
Below are just a few things that came to mind as I have been reading this thread as well as a couple of others lately.

"There are people who, instead of listening to what is being said to them, are already listening to what they are going to say themselves." — Albert Guinon

"Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply." ― Stephen R. Covey

"It's a rare person who wants to hear what he doesn't want to hear." — Dick Cavett

"There's a big difference between showing interest and really taking interest." — Michael P. Nichols

"Effective listeners remember that "words have no meaning - people have meaning." The assignment of meaning to a term is an internal process; meaning comes from inside us. And although our experiences, knowledge and attitudes differ, we often misinterpret each other's messages while under the illusion that a common understanding has been achieved." — Larry Barker

Greg

Oh Greg, there you go trying to make sense and stuff... you so silly!

gregstec
11-16-2012, 10:05 AM
Oh Greg, there you go trying to make sense and stuff... you so silly!

Yeah, it is something that comes over me now and then, but it swiftly dissipates - all better now :D

Rob Watson
11-16-2012, 10:29 AM
All this talk of tacos got me hungry. After years of knowing only Taco Bell and thinking I knew what a taco was I found myself in Mexico and had a taco ... exactly the same it was not in the slightest but it was sort of ...

I spent years reading here and there and when I actually felt someone who could do it ... ohhhh, that's what that mean't. Then when I could actually do it, cool. Then I could actually teach some else how to do it ... OK, boyo, that is step one - now onto the next 1000 steps.

Recall this progression? Obsessed with pronography but that first actual experience is way different. Then you meet that one person that takes you way out of you comfort zone with all that freaky stuff - at first it is not comfortable but eventually it's really nice. Then you work together taking your time really working on paying attention and reaching levels you never knew existed. Now when one of you says "strawberries" and the other person knowingly and playfully replies "oh, yeah baby" and those around you are slightly uncomfortable knowing some thing really special and personal just happened and they say "I like strawberries" without understanding they have no idea what you guys are talking about. And the all to real knowing looks you exchange and then place your focus and attention on them and say together "Ooooh, strawberries" and they get all shivery and nervous. Yeah, kind of like that.

thisisnotreal
11-16-2012, 10:35 AM
hey. come on now. There's kids here.

Brett Charvat
11-16-2012, 10:41 AM
Sigh...yeah, that's about what I figured. "I already do that! My teacher did the same thing! It's all the same! Your experience is just like mine the first time I saw aikido! There's nothing special about this stuff!"

I give up. If folks are going to ask for information from those who have taken the time to go and seek out the people who are showing these skills and then in the same breath dismiss our experiences out of hand as "yep, same stuff I do," then the conversation has been ended before it began.

I often hear the complaint from people that this forum sometimes seems like a "haves vs. have nots" when it comes to the IP discussions. Now I'm starting to see that it's somewhat true, but it's not because those of us who "have" (gone to see some IP folks and began training in it) are being elitists or stingy with the information. We might just be getting a bit tired of the "have nots" pretending to ask serious questions about our experiences, just to be told by the "have nots" that we didn't really have the experiences after all. You're effectively telling me that what I experienced is not what I experienced.

I should have just kept my fool mouth shut after all.

P.S. to Greg, your post above pretty much encapsulates what I'm trying to say, just more eloquently. Thanks!

gregstec
11-16-2012, 11:05 AM
P.S. to Greg, your post above pretty much encapsulates what I'm trying to say, just more eloquently. Thanks!

I think I have been at this a little longer than you so I think my methods have the benefit of more refinement, but your stuff was good too ;)

Greg

MM
11-16-2012, 11:10 AM
I often hear the complaint from people that this forum sometimes seems like a "haves vs. have nots" when it comes to the IP discussions. Now I'm starting to see that it's somewhat true, but it's not because those of us who "have" (gone to see some IP folks and began training in it) are being elitists or stingy with the information. We might just be getting a bit tired of the "have nots" pretending to ask serious questions about our experiences, just to be told by the "have nots" that we didn't really have the experiences after all. You're effectively telling me that what I experienced is not what I experienced.

I should have just kept my fool mouth shut after all.


Your Kimura experience post was worth wading through all the posts in this thread. :). Thanks.

Mark

phitruong
11-16-2012, 01:06 PM
All this talk of tacos got me hungry. After years of knowing only Taco Bell and thinking I knew what a taco was I found myself in Mexico and had a taco ... exactly the same it was not in the slightest but it was sort of ...

*some fruity stuffs deleted*

did you yell at the mexican in mexico for not making the taco right? did you tell them that their taco isn't the right sort of taco? :)

by the way, i like blueberry whip whip. :D

ChrisHein
11-16-2012, 01:16 PM
Below are just a few things that came to mind as I have been reading this thread as well as a couple of others lately.

"There are people who, instead of listening to what is being said to them, are already listening to what they are going to say themselves." — Albert Guinon

"Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply." ― Stephen R. Covey

"It's a rare person who wants to hear what he doesn't want to hear." — Dick Cavett

"There's a big difference between showing interest and really taking interest." — Michael P. Nichols

"Effective listeners remember that "words have no meaning - people have meaning." The assignment of meaning to a term is an internal process; meaning comes from inside us. And although our experiences, knowledge and attitudes differ, we often misinterpret each other's messages while under the illusion that a common understanding has been achieved." — Larry Barker

Greg

Awesome Greg,
Those quotes are VERY apropos.

So now, we can start communicating?

gregstec
11-16-2012, 02:57 PM
Awesome Greg,
Those quotes are VERY apropos.

So now, we can start communicating?

Sorry, Chris, but you and I have absolutely nothing in common to use as a baseline for establishing a foundation to support further discussion in this area. Regardless of what you are saying about a sincere interest in IP, you are coming across as arrogant, sarcastic, and with a presumption to the answers of your questions. As been mentioned, people that do have extensive hands on experience with this subject keep telling you that it is different than modern athletics and you keep insisting they are wrong because you lack the capability to listen and understand what they are saying. Contrary to what your ego may be telling you, those in the IP crowd are not here to convince you (or anyone else that does not want to listen) that they are right, but simply to let those that may be looking for something more in their training that there is something else out there and this is how to get it - as simple as that.

I wish you well in your MA journey, but I am afraid I have nothing to share with you any further; besides, I have a problem taking anyone seriously that over uses the word ‘awesome' - it just does not sit well with my generation; I know it is a personal quirk, but it is one that has served me well over the years :)

Greg

ChrisHein
11-16-2012, 03:15 PM
Hey Greg,

I'm sure we have lot's in common that we can talk about. We are both martial artists, we are both Americans, we are both Aikiweb members. We have lot's of common ground, if you're interested in exploring that.

I understand, fully, the you need to experience something argument, or "IHTBF". I will try, in 2013 to make that a reality for myself. Until then I would like to talk about the things outside of experiencing an event. There are lot's of things we could talk about.

I'm sorry if you feel I've slighted you.

gregstec
11-16-2012, 06:31 PM
Hey Greg,

I'm sure we have lot's in common that we can talk about. We are both martial artists, we are both Americans, we are both Aikiweb members. We have lot's of common ground, if you're interested in exploring that.

I understand, fully, the you need to experience something argument, or "IHTBF". I will try, in 2013 to make that a reality for myself. Until then I would like to talk about the things outside of experiencing an event. There are lot's of things we could talk about.

I'm sorry if you feel I've slighted you.

I don't feel slighted in anyway, however, I am somewhat exasperated by your constant insistence to discuss a subject you have no experience in, coupled with a preconceived opinion that differs from those you want to discuss it with that do have experience in it. Of course, we may have some common ground from a general perspective of MA and as members of Aikiweb, but they are not the subjects you want to discuss - as said, we have absolutely no common ground in the subject of IP, and we never will until you go out and gain some direct experience with it from someone that does.

Let me try some other analogies/metaphors here that may be easier for you to relate to:

You come across as a child that is constantly asking his parents details equivalent to what is evolved with swimming, riding a bike, or driving a car - of course, some basic information can be provided (which has been given you already about IP) but true detailed discourse between the parties can not occur until the other party has gained sufficient practical experience on the subject. Or;

How about a more sophomoric one that may just relate better to you. Let's go back to our high school days (mine were in the late 60s and I imagine yours were somewhere in the 90s) anyway, every Monday morning the guys would get together and talk about their sexual conquers over the weekend (some may find this sexist, but it is not - it is just the reality of it at that time) During that time, you generally had two groups - there was the group (virgins) that were lying to themselves and others bragging about how lucky they got, when in realty, they never scored. However, they would continue with much detail on the subject trying to convince others that they knew what they were talking about and what it was like - their detail was always second hand information and mostly from others of the same group. Then there was the other group just sitting there smiling (for various and obvious reasons :)) and not saying a thing; this was the group that did get lucky and they knew was it was like and what it was not like, but there was no sense talking to those that did not know because they just did not have enough information to conduct an intelligent conversation on the subject.

My advise to you, Chris, is to go out and get lucky. Then come back here with that smile on your face and we can continue the conversation. Any other action on your part can only mean two things: 1) you really are so dense that you just cannot hear what people are saying to you, or; 2) you really are a sophisticated troll. If the former, get some therapy; if the the latter, well, the only thing that comes to mind is from W.C Fields:
"Go away kid, ya bother me" :)

Your choice - and good luck

Greg

Cady Goldfield
11-16-2012, 09:11 PM
Let's go back to our high school days (mine were in the late 60s and I imagine yours were somewhere in the 90s) anyway, every Monday morning the guys would get together and talk about their sexual conquers over the weekend (some may find this sexist, but it is not - it is just the reality of it at that time) During that time, you generally had two groups - there was the group (virgins) that were lying to themselves and others bragging about how lucky they got, when in realty, they never scored. However, they would continue with much detail on the subject trying to convince others that they knew what they were talking about and what it was like - their detail was always second hand information and mostly from others of the same group. Then there was the other group just sitting there smiling (for various and obvious reasons :)) and not saying a thing; this was the group that did get lucky and they knew was it was like and what it was not like, but there was no sense talking to those that did not know because they just did not have enough information to conduct an intelligent conversation on the subject.


Okay, I can't resist adding this Monty Python link now...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7HycFnH26U

ChrisHein
11-16-2012, 09:25 PM
Greg,
Sophomoric.
Exactly.

gregstec
11-16-2012, 09:35 PM
Okay, I can't resist adding this Monty Python link now...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7HycFnH26U

priceless :D

Rob Watson
11-16-2012, 09:49 PM
I was skeptical. I got out and got some hands on time. I can replicate some basic things I think 'they' would consider IP. I'm pretty sure I can't really talk too intelligently about it.