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ChrisHein
11-06-2012, 03:15 PM
This video was posted by Rober Roeser in a thread discussion involving the definition of Aiki (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21936&page=3)

Here's a video that has Chen Xiaowang being 'rooted' against a couple of different people - the video is corny, and it's Chinese, but it probably the closest video you'll find to the tenryu/osensei deal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMoPNz4W8M&feature=youtu.be

At 3:28 you can see him getting pushed on by a guy that is around 400 pounds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMoPNz4W8M&t=3m28s

At the end of the video is him trying to stay in the a circle getting pushed on by a strongman. Here's a the part where the strongman is pushing a semit-truck with a trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMoPNz4W8M&t=13m55s

Here's the 3 1 minute rounds start at the end where the strongman tries to push Chen Xiaowang out of the circle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMoPNz4W8M&t=19m47s

I don't speak Chinese but I would like to know what the strongman is saying at the end after pushing on CXW.

First off I would like to know, (I believe) the fellow demonstrating in this video is named "Chen Xiaowang", does he have "IP" (internal power)? Does most of the internal power community recognize his having "IP", is he "vetted"?

Second, is this a fair demonstration of, example of "IP"?

mathewjgano
11-06-2012, 03:17 PM
This video was posted by Rober Roeser in a thread discussion involving the definition of Aiki (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21936&page=3)

First off I would like to know, (I believe) the fellow demonstrating in this video is named "Chen Xiaowang", does he have "IP" (internal power)? Does most of the internal power community recognize his having "IP", is he "vetted"?

Second, is this a fair demonstration of, example of "IP"?

I'm no adept, but I get the impression he's one of the more respected people...and watching the videos (among others I've seen of his students) I certainly think he's on to something. :D

chillzATL
11-06-2012, 03:19 PM
This video was posted by Rober Roeser in a thread discussion involving the definition of Aiki (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21936&page=3)

First off I would like to know, (I believe) the fellow demonstrating in this video is named "Chen Xiaowang", does he have "IP" (internal power)? Does most of the internal power community recognize his having "IP", is he "vetted"?

Second, is this a fair demonstration of, example of "IP"?

yes.

Yes.

Rupert Atkinson
11-06-2012, 03:29 PM
To me - it's obvious. Ueshiba went to China and saw all this. I figured that out 20 years ago. I've been to China too. Heck, I even saw one school the squealed and sqaurked like Brusce Lee. Even Sirum wrestling in Korea is based on this pushing test, in my opinion. Maybe even Sumo. And with that in mind (if it were true) we can see how easy it is to deviate from the source.

jss
11-06-2012, 03:32 PM
First off I would like to know, (I believe) the fellow demonstrating in this video is named "Chen Xiaowang", does he have "IP" (internal power)?
Yes.

Does most of the internal power community recognize his having "IP", is he "vetted"?
I think so. Then again, it may depend on who exactly you accept as being in such a community.

Second, is this a fair demonstration of, example of "IP"?
Yes, but bear in mind that being able to reproduce the demonstration does not necessarily mean one has IP.

grondahl
11-06-2012, 03:44 PM
To me - it's obvious. Ueshiba went to China and saw all this. I figured that out 20 years ago. I've been to China too.

Except that itīs pretty clear that this kind of training already existed in Daito Ryu.

jss
11-06-2012, 03:51 PM
To me - it's obvious. Ueshiba went to China and saw all this. I figured that out 20 years ago. I've been to China too.
Well, I have been to Greece like several times and we all know that everything the Chinese know about martial arts came from the Ancient Greeks through the Alexander the Great / Bodhidharma / Shaolin lineage! :D

ChrisHein
11-06-2012, 05:48 PM
What is being shown in this video, all be it very well, is a simple demonstration of structure. Now the fellow demonstrating it, Chen Xiaowang is clearly very physically able, and is very practiced at this method of body use. I wouldn't say that the average person could do what he's doing without a significant amount of training, probably around a year or two. However the principle that he is using in this demonstration can be achieved by any average person in only a few minutes, and you can show a similar feat against someone significantly larger than you as soon as you understand what I am about to write.

When the strong man pushes into Chen Xiaowang, Chen locks his arm under strongman's arm pit, joining their structures. Every time the strongman pushes he is actually pushing against himself via a very simple redirection done by Chen Xiaowang. Here is a diagram to help you understand this principle.
http://www.aikidostudent.com/images/connection-push-test.jpg

Because of the simple redirection, every time the strongman pushes (force "A"), that force goes through Chen Xiaowang's structure, and back into the strongman (force "AB"), pushing the strongman up and back, and Xiaowang's structure down every time he pushes.

This is not to say that it is easy to redirect this much force, but it is possible, requiring you to use much much less force than the pusher is using. This is a simple example of mechanical advantage. You should try it with your friends, you'll be surprised!

Here is a clip I made a year or two back, explaining the same thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3wkxr0Jq4&t=1m15s

Here is the whole video if your interested in my views on structure and alignment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3wkxr0Jq4

phitruong
11-06-2012, 05:56 PM
chris, not about the arms. you ignored this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMoPNz4W8M&t=3m28s. again, not about the arms. i did similar thing to howard popkin and mike sigman, and their arms were nowhere near mine.

phitruong
11-06-2012, 06:07 PM
chris, also to get under someone without changing your body posture is SJT #1 (stupid jin trick #1). it's one of the first test to see if someone is doing external or internal. have someone shorter than you to go as low as they can, then have them push up at you at chest level and see if you can "get under them" without changing your body posture where you stand in a higher stand. and did i mention that you are not allow to touch their arms?

ChrisHein
11-06-2012, 06:21 PM
Well, in all the demonstrations Chen Xiaowang is doing, in this video, his arm is under the other guys. So maybe he's not using this redirection, but his arm is exactly where it needs to be in order to do this.

There are other ways to achieve this result, but we'd have to examine those on a case by case basis. If more IP experts would put their stuff on video, we could do this, so we could better see what is happening. Maybe they'll start showing more stuff on video...

ChrisHein
11-06-2012, 06:24 PM
In the clip you posted Phi, he is doing the same thing, although the camera is careful to stay away from it, you still see it many times. He also hits the guy in the side, which probably made the guy want to stop pushing much more quickly.

phitruong
11-06-2012, 06:35 PM
In the clip you posted Phi, he is doing the same thing, although the camera is careful to stay away from it, you still see it many times. He also hits the guy in the side, which probably made the guy want to stop pushing much more quickly.

if he can hit the guy, how is it that he can remove his hand if he needed it? as i said, not the arms.

DH
11-06-2012, 08:01 PM
if he can hit the guy, how is it that he can remove his hand if he needed it? as i said, not the arms.
You're not going to convince him Phi. With Chrisand others it is a forgone conclusion that:
External and internal are the same
All of the internal discussion equates to learned technical based tricks that they already know
Anyone can learn these "moves" in a year or two because it is what "they" know.
The rest is all smoke and mirrors.
You might as well argue over how to ride a bike

I chimed in on the other thread, really for the benefit of others.
Just practice and get better

"Everyone talks
You shugyo
Years go by
People still talking
Then you get up and demonstrate
The everyone knows the truth...."
Words to live by.The only *real* debate left is....words.
Dan

chillzATL
11-06-2012, 08:33 PM
What is being shown in this video, all be it very well, is a simple demonstration of structure. Now the fellow demonstrating it, Chen Xiaowang is clearly very physically able, and is very practiced at this method of body use. I wouldn't say that the average person could do what he's doing without a significant amount of training, probably around a year or two. However the principle that he is using in this demonstration can be achieved by any average person in only a few minutes, and you can show a similar feat against someone significantly larger than you as soon as you understand what I am about to write.

When the strong man pushes into Chen Xiaowang, Chen locks his arm under strongman's arm pit, joining their structures. Every time the strongman pushes he is actually pushing against himself via a very simple redirection done by Chen Xiaowang. Here is a diagram to help you understand this principle.
http://www.aikidostudent.com/images/connection-push-test.jpg

Because of the simple redirection, every time the strongman pushes (force "A"), that force goes through Chen Xiaowang's structure, and back into the strongman (force "AB"), pushing the strongman up and back, and Xiaowang's structure down every time he pushes.


yes, it is a demonstration of structure along with several other things and I agree that what he demonstrated can be done by anyone and probably in a shorter amount of time than even what you gave, if they practiced and did the necessary conditioning, but I don't understand how what you're describing works in the way that you're describing it. How is this push into his upper chest/shoulders mechanically traveling around through his arms and back to the strongman. How does that work? You describe it as a mechanical process, but I don't see the mechanics. How is the force/push conveyed back to him?

I modified your image as I see it:

http://i.imgur.com/B8Sqb.jpg

What I see is CXW simply relaxing and letting this man push him into the ground. He's providing no resistance and not letting any muscle tension block that force as it passes through him to the ground. CXW's center of gravity is effectively in his feet and his body is so well connected, it doesn't "give" as you or I would, so the push makes him heavier and can't throw off his base. The guy may as well be pushing down at an angle into his hip in an attempt to push him back, which is where the lack of traction and such comes from. IMO, it would be like you or I pushing down onto a big rock that's half buried in the ground rather than pushing at it from the side to move it. We're not going to move the rock by pushing it down into the ground, we're just going to make ourselves lighter and push ourselves away. He's also doing more behind the scenes in regards to force vectors and protecting his center and all that, but if we're that far apart on how we think he's doing what he's doing, there's no need to go there. On the surface everything he's doing is probably simpler than what even you were getting at, but more difficult at the same time. The hows are far more difficult than the whats.

I see no difference in what he's doing here than what I've seen of Ueshiba sitting, letting people push his head, or the jo trick or the pics of him pushing the tree. As Ikeda would say, "same, same". Do you agree or disagree?

HL1978
11-06-2012, 08:53 PM
20:20, and 23:30(where he is holding the guy back one handed) doesn't look anywhere like a locked arm to me. If he was to lock it from that position, you would see a twist in the bigger guy each time he pushed.

So, is CXW floating the big guy? Is he under the big guy? Is he actively pushing back, or passively letting the force bounce off the ground? Is the big guy mostly pushing or trying to rest his weight on CXW? What about CXW? If he is pushing back, where is he pushing back from? Is he resting his weight?

On a sidenote, CXW has relatively inexpensive seminars (though rather short, but fine if you just want to feel what its like) and is usually willing to toss anyone around. Unfortunately the seminar I went to, he did not, because people got upset the previous year. He did give plenty of corrections though, which sadly were not burned into my body.

danj
11-06-2012, 08:55 PM
My own view is that the structure of person A is being modified at the time of contact by person B so that A is unable to push in a horizontal direction towards person B. At this point person B feels there is no force being received and person A can be 'confused' about why they can't push. The base of person A (weak) and B(strong) at times reveal much, though with sufficient understanding they become ess relevant and you see in the video examples of that

As a somewhat mechanistic person i can see that using external structure and 'tricks' help to get the point across about where the forces go (via topple vector and understanding the base), but it also highlights for me the fundamental importance of internal structure (as the connecting point between infinite power of the ground and contact points). Then that everything can be made much smaller/ invisible where i think the science points the way to IP but maybe not how to get there if that makes sense.

*cringes slightly* but is hopeful.....

chillzATL
11-06-2012, 09:22 PM
I somehow missed the first part of the video, but they basically show you what he's doing at the beginning.

Rupert Atkinson
11-06-2012, 09:48 PM
I like Chris's diagram and it follows what I think. In the end it is just a trick, but a very good trick. Just like the unbendable arm. But what you really need to do is to figure out ways to put it all into your normal movement and into your techniques. And then, discover new tricks that lead to new ideas and new principles.

danj
11-06-2012, 11:47 PM
I like Chris's diagram and it follows what I think. In the end it is just a trick, but a very good trick. Just like the unbendable arm. But what you really need to do is to figure out ways to put it all into your normal movement and into your techniques. And then, discover new tricks that lead to new ideas and new principles.

Aiki-age?

ChrisHein
11-07-2012, 12:04 AM
if he can hit the guy, how is it that he can remove his hand if he needed it? as i said, not the arms.

Where is is other arm, the one that is away from the Camera?

ChrisHein
11-07-2012, 12:12 AM
20:20, and 23:30(where he is holding the guy back one handed) doesn't look anywhere like a locked arm to me. If he was to lock it from that position, you would see a twist in the bigger guy each time he pushed.

At 20:20 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMoPNz4W8M&t=20m20s his arm is still under the armpit of the strongman.)

At 23:30 still there as well (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMoPNz4W8M&t=23m30s)

You guys should be looking for the back arm, the one that is away from the camera. It is locked under the guys armpit. It never moves. If there is a video where this is not happening, I would love to see it.

ChrisHein
11-07-2012, 12:19 AM
I like Chris's diagram and it follows what I think. In the end it is just a trick, but a very good trick. Just like the unbendable arm. But what you really need to do is to figure out ways to put it all into your normal movement and into your techniques. And then, discover new tricks that lead to new ideas and new principles.

There is nothing wrong with this being what it is. You can call it a "trick" or a principle, or just plain clever. It is what it is, and that's how we should judge it, it's the only way to learn.

I've got nothing against "CXW" (if that's what people call him), but he's not using a magic force that takes a life time to master. It's a quickly learned technique that you might find useful, I've used it in Randori a few times.

Takeda Sokaku himself said that he didn't like people who didn't pay for his seminars watching, because his techniques were very simple and easy to steal. Probably why a lot of current "IP" guys now won't make video's or keep their video's secretly, so only a few can see them. Most of these techniques are simple, and easy to learn if you get a teacher willing to show them to you.

Lorel Latorilla
11-07-2012, 02:07 AM
There is nothing wrong with this being what it is. You can call it a "trick" or a principle, or just plain clever. It is what it is, and that's how we should judge it, it's the only way to learn.

I've got nothing against "CXW" (if that's what people call him), but he's not using a magic force that takes a life time to master. It's a quickly learned technique that you might find useful, I've used it in Randori a few times.

Takeda Sokaku himself said that he didn't like people who didn't pay for his seminars watching, because his techniques were very simple and easy to steal. Probably why a lot of current "IP" guys now won't make video's or keep their video's secretly, so only a few can see them. Most of these techniques are simple, and easy to learn if you get a teacher willing to show them to you.

Chris, why would you want to discuss IP if this is ultimately what you want to express? On one side, some people say it takes a long time to burn it int these principles in movement (hence it takes a life time to master) and on your side, you say it doesnt take a life time to learn and that it is easy and simple. If you are so convinced that it is easy and simple and it doesnt take a life time to learn, why are you starting a thread trying to get people to discuss internal power? Are you purposely baiting and trolling and annoying people or something? Seriously, I don't get it.

jss
11-07-2012, 02:15 AM
What is being shown in this video, all be it very well, is a simple demonstration of structure. <snip>

When the strong man pushes into Chen Xiaowang, Chen locks his arm under strongman's arm pit, joining their structures. Every time the strongman pushes he is actually pushing against himself via a very simple redirection done by Chen Xiaowang.

<snip>
As I said earlier, the fact that you know a way with which you can reproduce the demonstration(*) does not mean that CXW does it that way. So here's an additional challenge to support your case: explain how CXW's explanation of what he is doing (You'll have to find it first, though, if I had a link or something I would provide it.) matches your explanation of what he is doing. I realize that this is a somewhat tricky endavour, but assuming we have two explanations of the same physical 'trick', it should be able to 'translate' one to the other in a meaningful way.

(*) Or think you can reproduce it. It may be possible that your way of doing it suffices in most cases, but not in cases in which the difference in size and muscle is as big as in CXW's demonstration. But let's not go there, because that's a discussion that won't go anywhere meaningful.

ChrisHein
11-07-2012, 03:29 AM
Chris, why would you want to discuss IP

Well my main interest in discussing IP these days is because people want to call it "Aiki".

ChrisHein
11-07-2012, 03:38 AM
As I said earlier, the fact that you know a way with which you can reproduce the demonstration(*) does not mean that CXW does it that way.

You are totally correct, maybe he is doing it some other way, but if you try the way I described you can do it too. The way I described also matches what "CXW" is doing. If we apply Occam's razor to this (the hypotheses making the fewest assumptions should be selected) we'll find that my explanation makes the most sense.

I have already demonstrated this, and provided a link. Now I did this against someone way smaller, but I also did it standing bolt upright on one foot too. There is no doubt that what CXM is doing is difficult, and probably took some hard practice to learn how to do it against that much force, but it's not a mystical thing, or something that would take a lifetime to master. If it took a year to build up the strength and ability to do this I would be surprised.

Chris Knight
11-07-2012, 03:56 AM
Well my main interest in discussing IP these days is because people want to call it "Aiki".
Hi Chris, from researching into the lives of Ueshiba, Horikawa, and Sagawa, albeit not in great depth, all students of Takeda, no-one is calling internal power aiki, aiki is the resultant action created by a body operating with yin/yang and fuelled by duel spirals, as quoted by the Chen Fake lineage as well. Internal power is the main fuelling behind aiki, to create the conditions necessary etc. IMO - Transparent Power by Sagawa provides quite interesting quotes

Cheers

HL1978
11-07-2012, 07:04 AM
Chris,

When I read locked, I thought you mean CXW has a straight arm, which he clearly does not. Whatever mechanic CXW is using, isn't predicated on where he has placed his hands on the other guy. He probably could replicate the same demo without any hands on the other guy.

So for the peanut gallery, do you think CXW is floating/under the other guy, or doing something else?

Is the strongman using any hip action or not? Who is resting on who?

There are tons of CXW videos online, you will find some translated, there is one that is crudely translated about double weighting which may be informitive if you can figure out the wacky english.

phitruong
11-07-2012, 07:17 AM
Where is is other arm, the one that is away from the Camera?

on the guy shirt by the waist, actually, looked like he held the guy shirt loosely. look carefully. also, they are chest to chest. also, look at the back muscle of the strong-man dude, it doesn't look like his shoulders pop-up.

btw, your force vectors don't add up. try this, stand with each foot on a scale and then try your approach and see if the scale needles don't change.

ok, i am going to repeat stuffs that would make dan laughing his ass off. it seemed to me that you believed many of the IP/IS stuffs are tricks, as in slight of hand sort, that can be easily accomplished. have you considered that there have been many years passed, and lots of folks took your position then they went and challenged these IP/IS folks, only to change their minds and started to take lessons from these folks? quite a few are on aikiweb today. i remembered reading david orange and rob liberti argued with mike sigman and dan endlessly. there were others too. they are in the archive. many these folks have travelled far and wide. they have quite a bit of experiences. and yet they abandoned long hard earned experiences and converted and changed their practice at later stage of their game. and these are folks who aren't some kyu rank noobs. for example, Hiroshi Ikeda sensei. here is a man whose aikido already superb, second in command of ASU, and had nothing to prove to anyone; yet when he met an internal teacher of a different art, he went and reworked his aikido approach. he is just one of the many examples. do you think they all just lost their mind collectively? i meant you can fool one or two, but many with a great deal of skeptical and lots to lose? do you have problem computing such logics?

thisisnotreal
11-07-2012, 07:37 AM
So here's an additional challenge to support your case: explain how CXW's explanation of what he is doing ...

so my buddy translates the post-contest talking part of it like this;

Tachi Master:
-------------
He has a big power but it's only brute force. I sink my breath to the dan tian (lower belly).
I can avoid the edge, using a soft approach to subdue a tough opponent.

Big muscle guy:
---------------
Instead of push his upper body, I will try to push the lower part of his body.

----
My buddy is lazy so that's all the translation i can get out of him. I would love to see a full english transcription of what both players are saying in between rounds, and after the contest as well. .. if anyone could do it.. ? :cool:

HL1978
11-07-2012, 07:46 AM
My buddy is lazy so that's all the translation i can get out of him. I would love to see a full english transcription of what both players are saying in between rounds, and after the contest as well. .. if anyone could do it.. ? :cool:

My japanese is better than my chinese (I speak chinese at home as my inlaws don't speak english), but I will see if I can get a translation for you tonight.

jss
11-07-2012, 07:47 AM
You are totally correct, maybe he is doing it some other way, but if you try the way I described you can do it too.
I can do it in a way that is not like yours, yet is closer to what CXW is doing, so I'm not interested in trying it in the way you describe.

The way I described also matches what "CXW" is doing.
You say it matches what CXW is doing. That's not worth much. I asked you to show that it also matches what CXW says he is doing, but apparently you're not up to the challenge? ;)

If we apply Occam's razor to this (the hypotheses making the fewest assumptions should be selected) we'll find that my explanation makes the most sense.
What hypotheses are we comparing here? To me it now seems that you are stating that your description matches what CXW does, because that's a simpler hypothesis than that it doesn't. Sounds more like a tautology than Occam's razor...

chillzATL
11-07-2012, 07:50 AM
So for the peanut gallery, do you think CXW is floating/under the other guy, or doing something else?

Is the strongman using any hip action or not? Who is resting on who?

There are tons of CXW videos online, you will find some translated, there is one that is crudely translated about double weighting which may be informitive if you can figure out the wacky english.

I think the strongman is floating himself, but I do think CXW is playing with him some there as well, feeling what he's doing and making adjustments to prevent him from getting his weight down and his strength into him.

Lorel Latorilla
11-07-2012, 09:10 AM
Well my main interest in discussing IP these days is because people want to call it "Aiki".

You are not interested in having a discussion. People try to have a discussion with you but you have your own conclusions about this thing. How long have you been arguing with Dan? 4-5 years now?

Mary Eastland
11-07-2012, 09:17 AM
I am not sure how being the strongest and the best really helps.

Each person and each circumstance is different. Training with many different ukes and learning how different bodies move in all sorts of circumstances is a fun way to development inner strength.

DH
11-07-2012, 01:04 PM
I am not sure how being the strongest and the best really helps.

Each person and each circumstance is different. Training with many different ukes and learning how different bodies move in all sorts of circumstances is a fun way to development inner strength.
No it isn't. It doesn't help in the least bit.
Ueshiba...your arts founder, like thousands of high level budo people before him..all.....all......all...
pointed to solo training to develop Internal strength.

For a group of folk who make claims of being open minded-modern aikido-ka's interest in re-defining things they don't understand and cannot do to fit what THEY do understand and can do doesn't help anyone grow.
Dan

Mary Eastland
11-07-2012, 01:11 PM
No it isn't. It doesn't help in the least bit.
Ueshiba...your arts founder, like thousands of high level budo people before him..all.....all......all...
pointed to solo training to develop Internal strength.

For a group of folk who make claims of being open minded-modern Aikido-ka's interest in re-defining things they don't understand and cannot do to fit what THEY do understand and can do doesn't help anyone grow.
Dan

oooohhh, 3 fingers fingers pointing back at you again. :cool: (about the open minded bit)

I disagree with what you wrote above. It has helped me. And here is how. By training in a semi traditional Aikido dojo I have learned quite a bit about how people move, how it feels to move with them and how it feels to get them to move differently.

It has nothing to do with raw power. This is one of the aspects that makes Aikido as I practice it good for women and smaller men.

mathewjgano
11-07-2012, 01:33 PM
Hi Chris, from researching into the lives of Ueshiba, Horikawa, and Sagawa, albeit not in great depth, all students of Takeda, no-one is calling internal power aiki, aiki is the resultant action created by a body operating with yin/yang and fuelled by duel spirals, as quoted by the Chen Fake lineage as well. Internal power is the main fuelling behind aiki, to create the conditions necessary etc. IMO - Transparent Power by Sagawa provides quite interesting quotes

Cheers

I'm confused...easily, I know:D , but I thought aiki was being called a kind of IP too. Aren't bodies using yin/yang/dual spirals in fact using IP? Isn't one of the major points being made by the proponants of internals that aiki is not an external thing?

ChrisHein
11-07-2012, 01:36 PM
http://aikidostudent.com/images/CXW.jpg

In the first picture, from another demonstration you can most clearly see the arm that is keeping "CXW" from being pushed over. It can again bee seen in the strongman, however the camera guy did a good job with the heavy guy and we really only catch a brief moment of the arm (I had a hard time getting it) In the first video I found of CXW doing this the arm that helps is shown often, but in this strongman video you can't see it very often, it's alway in the back.

I found a few video's of CXW doing this kind of push test, in every example he has his arm in the same place. Is it possible that this is not how he's doing it, absolutely. However if you put your arm in that spot, you can do exactly what he is doing, maybe not quite as well (without some practice), but you can do it too.

While I've heard people sat that this can be done with the arms down I haven't seen any video. If there is video of such a thing I would like to discuss that video.

ChrisHein
11-07-2012, 01:42 PM
For a group of folk who make claims of being open minded-modern aikido-ka's interest in re-defining things they don't understand and cannot do to fit what THEY do understand and can do doesn't help anyone grow.
Dan

If we can't understand a thing we can't practice it. If you could provide clear visual demonstration of what you mean I think this could help greatly. If you don't want to do so for personal reason's I understand.

I see lot's of speculation about what this teach or that teacher might have said, but what we could use is someone who really understands this stuff to show us. I have given example after example, made numerous video's, and spent plenty of my time trying to show what I understand of these things. I would love it if someone with different/greater insight could show some things as well.

chillzATL
11-07-2012, 02:02 PM
http://aikidostudent.com/images/CXW.jpg

In the first picture, from another demonstration you can most clearly see the arm that is keeping "CXW" from being pushed over. It can again bee seen in the strongman, however the camera guy did a good job with the heavy guy and we really only catch a brief moment of the arm (I had a hard time getting it) In the first video I found of CXW doing this the arm that helps is shown often, but in this strongman video you can't see it very often, it's alway in the back.

I found a few video's of CXW doing this kind of push test, in every example he has his arm in the same place. Is it possible that this is not how he's doing it, absolutely. However if you put your arm in that spot, you can do exactly what he is doing, maybe not quite as well (without some practice), but you can do it too.

While I've heard people sat that this can be done with the arms down I haven't seen any video. If there is video of such a thing I would like to discuss that video.

I'll ask again, Chris. Explain how the arm does what you say it does. How does him having his arm there redirects the force of the push back to the big guy. How does it work?

phitruong
11-07-2012, 02:12 PM
I am not sure how being the strongest and the best really helps.


being strongest? who? CXW (the old chinese guy)? he's like in his 60s and the other big guys are about half his age and huge. CXW could pump irons all day until the day he dies, he won't be anywhere near their strength. folks talked about blending and ki and stuffs. that's what blending is about. you blend with the other person power and use it and redirect it as your own. it's a way to show that it's not about timing or put yourself in favorable position by moving somewhere else and so on.

for some reason folks think that practicing IP is somehow make you super strong. it's not. you are what you are, and what you have. the question here is how you train and how you use it. Ikeda sensei mentioned it here a few times http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfWXEuEgYI and here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St7I0M2fx1c

HL1978
11-07-2012, 02:49 PM
being strongest? who? CXW (the old chinese guy)? he's like in his 60s and the other big guys are about half his age and huge. CXW could pump irons all day until the day he dies, he won't be anywhere near their strength. folks talked about blending and ki and stuffs. that's what blending is about. you blend with the other person power and use it and redirect it as your own. it's a way to show that it's not about timing or put yourself in favorable position by moving somewhere else and so on.

for some reason folks think that practicing IP is somehow make you super strong. it's not. you are what you are, and what you have. the question here is how you train and how you use it. Ikeda sensei mentioned it here a few times http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfWXEuEgYI and here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St7I0M2fx1c

There is a guy I know who has jin, who had a car accident injuring his spine prior to his interest in IS. He is not strong in a coventional sense, and when he uses his muscles he is in a ton of pain. If you push on him, he exerts little strength at all, due to the pain, so something else is doing all the work. I think he also picked this stuff up quicker than most due to the feedback from the pain.

Krystal Locke
11-07-2012, 03:22 PM
Are y'all saying that good body mechanics and the training and experience to move someone into a position in which a portion of their power is transferred through me into the ground and the rest dissipated is insufficient? Must I breathe funny or meditate on heaven and earth inside me, or put my beliefs anywhere but in science and demonstrable reality?

What I see in the videos is someone who is wise to using their bones as braces between their pusher and the nearest planet. I see something very like my early aikido training tricks, where someone would sit in seiza and have the class push on his or her shoulders. Good alignment absorbed a large amount of power, and contact with the elbows redirected and dissipated the rest. It had nothing to do with duelling spirals, in/yo, ki, or love and internal harmony. It had everything to do with physics and mechanics.

Someone is going to have to make the link between the woo I am reading and the reality before I accept a cup of the koolaid.

ChrisHein
11-07-2012, 03:38 PM
I'll ask again, Chris. Explain how the arm does what you say it does. How does him having his arm there redirects the force of the push back to the big guy. How does it work?

Jason, grab your wife and do it, you'll see instantly. If it doesn't work, watch the video link I supplied. If that still doesn't work, look at the diagram that I supplied. If still after trying it you don't understand, let me know, and when I get a moment, and some people to film and demo on I'll make you a step by step how to.

phitruong
11-07-2012, 03:54 PM
Someone is going to have to make the link between the woo I am reading and the reality before I accept a cup of the koolaid.

woo? hey, hunter, are you doing the woo? are we into the woo? is that some sort of party with booze and chicks? because if it is, i am in the woo. is the plural of woo, wii? :)

if i told you that i have a degree in hard physical science and one of those hard engineering field, would you still think i am into the woo or whatever that is? then again, maybe i am into woo woo. wonder if i can call it woodo, the way of woo. :D

Mary Eastland
11-07-2012, 04:09 PM
woo? hey, hunter, are you doing the woo? are we into the woo? is that some sort of party with booze and chicks? because if it is, i am in the woo. is the plural of woo, wii? :)

if i told you that i have a degree in hard physical science and one of those hard engineering field, would you still think i am into the woo or whatever that is? then again, maybe i am into woo woo. wonder if i can call it woodo, the way of woo. :D

Hi Phi:

I know you are a funny guy. Have you ever given it any thought about how sexist something like this reads?
Just wondering?

phitruong
11-07-2012, 04:26 PM
Hi Phi:

I know you are a funny guy. Have you ever given it any thought about how sexist something like this reads?
Just wondering?

yes. i am trying to paint an image of a badass dude. grew up with 7 sisters, moms and lots of aunts and cousins, i got all girly. so i got to balance thing out by being a bad boy, so please work with me! that way when folks see me coming they will run away screaming in terror "there goes the dread Phi!" "run away! run away!" :)

*sorry for cupid slide out of the topics. please resume scheduled IP discussion*

Marc Abrams
11-07-2012, 04:34 PM
Phi:

I am sending over a dominatrix, all dressed in patent leather, with 12" spiked heels and a cat-a-nine-tails to teach some IP..... You've been a naughty boy, now receive your training! :D :D :D

Marc Abrams

Chris Knight
11-07-2012, 04:40 PM
Hi matt. No you can have internal power without aiki. But i stand to be corrected. This is from previous research. Just cant remember the source!! Lol

Cheers

Chtis

stan baker
11-07-2012, 04:42 PM
Instead of speculating and wondering go experience
Directly.then the conversation could be alot more productive

Stan

HL1978
11-07-2012, 07:28 PM
woo? hey, hunter, are you doing the woo? are we into the woo? is that some sort of party with booze and chicks? because if it is, i am in the woo. is the plural of woo, wii? :)

if i told you that i have a degree in hard physical science and one of those hard engineering field, would you still think i am into the woo or whatever that is? then again, maybe i am into woo woo. wonder if i can call it woodo, the way of woo. :D

Phi, you can woo me anytime you want.

I think people would be surprised how many people with an interest in IS have engineering and science degrees and don't think that its anything other than a particular skillset and method of conditioning the body in a certain way. There are also people with kinesiology backgrounds who have looked into IS and been a bit baffled since it doesn't correspond to what they know. To get that sort of reaction out of a kinesiology prof, would probably indicate that this isn't normal athletic movement that top athletes use.

mathewjgano
11-07-2012, 09:13 PM
Hi matt. No you can have internal power without aiki. But i stand to be corrected. This is from previous research. Just cant remember the source!! Lol

Cheers

Chtis

Hi Chris,
I'm betting you have a better understanding than I do. So from this standpoint would it be better to say that not all IP includes aiki, but all aiki includes IP?
Take care,
Matt

Chris Li
11-07-2012, 09:27 PM
Hi Chris,
I'm betting you have a better understanding than I do. So from this standpoint would it be better to say that not all IP includes aiki, but all aiki includes IP?
Take care,
Matt

I would agree - but I'm not the same Chris. ;)

Best,

Chris

David Orange
11-07-2012, 10:08 PM
There are other ways to achieve this result, but we'd have to examine those on a case by case basis. If more IP experts would put their stuff on video, we could do this, so we could better see what is happening. Maybe they'll start showing more stuff on video...

Why not just go and meet them? They're all over. Forrest Chang is in your state. Dan comes out there. If you're a professional martial artist, it's your duty.

David

ChrisHein
11-07-2012, 10:40 PM
Why not just go and meet them? They're all over. Forrest Chang is in your state. Dan comes out there. If you're a professional martial artist, it's your duty.

David

The most interesting thing about this is, my subjective experience (what I feel) is of no consequence with one caveat. If that subjective experience is repeatable and dependable.

"feeling" like something, doesn't make it an objective reality. Getting hit in the face is an objective reality. If I know it or not, I got hit in the face, which did something. I feel like martial arts are something that are objective first and subjective second. So "has to be felt" sounds totally silly to me, with the exception of that caveat I mentioned.

Feeling amazed, or feeling impressed doesn't mean anything happened, I feel amazed all the time just sitting in a chair. I've yet to see anyone show anything that makes me think "Man I've got to feel that". Now sometimes I do get fired up, and sick of hearing things that I don't think are true (like I've been feeling the last few weeks), and I think I should go to a seminar, but mostly my intentions are not good ones, I'm not curious, I'm annoyed. If I ever heard a compelling argument, or found someone in the IP world who I thought was being very genuine and could do some impressive things, I'm sure I would go to a seminar, with a curiousness and good intentions. I don't want to go to a seminar with bad intentions.

David Orange
11-07-2012, 10:51 PM
In the first picture, from another demonstration you can most clearly see the arm that is keeping "CXW" from being pushed over. It can again bee seen in the strongman, however the camera guy did a good job with the heavy guy and we really only catch a brief moment of the arm (I had a hard time getting it) In the first video I found of CXW doing this the arm that helps is shown often, but in this strongman video you can't see it very often, it's alway in the back.

I found a few video's of CXW doing this kind of push test, in every example he has his arm in the same place. Is it possible that this is not how he's doing it, absolutely. However if you put your arm in that spot, you can do exactly what he is doing, maybe not quite as well (without some practice), but you can do it too.

While I've heard people sat that this can be done with the arms down I haven't seen any video. If there is video of such a thing I would like to discuss that video.

His arm is not where you show in your diagram. I learned that little trick forty years ago. It's a little trick. It's NOT what's being done in the IP/IS training.

In these pics, CXW's arm is over the other guy's arm--not pushing up from underneath.

David

David Orange
11-07-2012, 10:58 PM
"feeling" like something, doesn't make it an objective reality. Getting hit in the face is an objective reality. If I know it or not, I got hit in the face, which did something. I feel like martial arts are something that are objective first and subjective second. So "has to be felt" sounds totally silly to me, with the exception of that caveat I mentioned.

Well, then say that "it has to be experienced." That's what people are really talking about. You can't get it from watching videos (not much of it).

Now sometimes I do get fired up, and sick of hearing things that I don't think are true (like I've been feeling the last few weeks), and I think I should go to a seminar, but mostly my intentions are not good ones, I'm not curious, I'm annoyed.

Nothing wrong with that. What did Tenryu feel when he decided to grab Ueshiba's arm? He was annoyed that the old man was up there making a mockery of Japanese budo. If that's what it takes to get you out of your self-constructed reality, no problem. Go and show those guys. And then you'll know. Those guys are professionals. They can take all you can give them and not get ruffled about it.

David

ChrisHein
11-07-2012, 11:01 PM
His rear arm, is under the armpit. It's not where it is in the diagram no, because it was hard to make a diagram that looked right with the arm as he has it. I'll have to make a video to show you guys how to do it. He doesn't change position, he stays in the same place with his rear arm in the same position. He's using the same technique in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldH40uF_f28

But it's easier to see. If you don't believe me, try it yourself.

ChrisHein
11-07-2012, 11:03 PM
Dan told me that he was not comfortable with me coming to his seminar. If that's changed I'm interested.

David Orange
11-07-2012, 11:15 PM
Dan told me that he was not comfortable with me coming to his seminar. If that's changed I'm interested.

There's still Forrest Chang, and he might be better for your purposes. He hasn't talked much in public, but a lot of people talk about him. He's listed his "stupid jin tricks" that I hope someday to experience. And then there's Mike Sigman and, always, Minoru Akuzawa....

Also, in less than two weeks, William Gleason will be teaching at George Ledyard's dojo in Seattle. He has pure traditional aikido from aikikai hombu, but he has worked the IP/IS into it (or back into it). He would have to be an excellent reference for you.

The opportunities abound.

All it takes is sincere effort.

David

ChrisHein
11-08-2012, 12:15 AM
There's still Forrest Chang, and he might be better for your purposes. He hasn't talked much in public, but a lot of people talk about him. He's listed his "stupid jin tricks" that I hope someday to experience. And then there's Mike Sigman and, always, Minoru Akuzawa....

Also, in less than two weeks, William Gleason will be teaching at George Ledyard's dojo in Seattle. He has pure traditional aikido from aikikai hombu, but he has worked the IP/IS into it (or back into it). He would have to be an excellent reference for you.

The opportunities abound.

All it takes is sincere effort.

David

The problem David, if you read above, I'm not sincerely interested. I don't think there is anything of interest. I'm mostly just annoyed. I would go to a Dan Harden seminar, if Dan would let me come.

mathewjgano
11-08-2012, 12:40 AM
I would agree - but I'm not the same Chris. ;)

Best,

Chris

Close enough. :D

David Orange
11-08-2012, 12:40 AM
The problem David, if you read above, I'm not sincerely interested. I don't think there is anything of interest. I'm mostly just annoyed. I would go to a Dan Harden seminar, if Dan would let me come.

So you're here just trying to intellectually disprove what everyone tells you must be directly experienced?

Pointless and a waste of everyone's time.

Sincerity in anything is sincerity in everything.

If you sincerely believe that your aikido is worth anything, you'll be compelled to go and prove it against these annoying pretenders.

You can say you have nothing to prove, but if that were true, you wouldn't be here trying to prove intellectually what can only be known by direct experience.

Dan's fine and Dan's great, but he's not the end-all, be-all of IP/IS. It's an ancient field that few care enough about to go deeply into. That's always been true.

But if you sincerely want to plumb the depths of aiki, you need to stop talking about it and go and see the real thing.

David

ChrisHein
11-08-2012, 01:06 AM
So you're here just trying to intellectually disprove what everyone tells you must be directly experienced?

Pointless and a waste of everyone's time.

Sincerity in anything is sincerity in everything.

If you sincerely believe that your aikido is worth anything, you'll be compelled to go and prove it against these annoying pretenders.

You can say you have nothing to prove, but if that were true, you wouldn't be here trying to prove intellectually what can only be known by direct experience.

Dan's fine and Dan's great, but he's not the end-all, be-all of IP/IS. It's an ancient field that few care enough about to go deeply into. That's always been true.

But if you sincerely want to plumb the depths of aiki, you need to stop talking about it and go and see the real thing.

David

This is really cute.

Okay David,
This week, at my Dojo I'm going to teach all the secrets passed down to me by my teachers. If you are sincerer about your desire to learn, you'll be here. After all I'm going to teach all of my secrets. So I'll expect to see you soon right?

Why or why not?

If you don't end up coming.

Here is the reason you suggest, you are not sincere about your training.

Here is a reason I suggest, it's not that important to you.

Do you like my reason or yours better?

Answer carefully, because I'm going to judge your sincerity in everything you do by your answer...

I tell you what, If any of these IP experts, in my state, wish me to come and see them, I'll accept any invitation made in the next three months. Now if they are super sincere they'll want to show me that I am wrong, and try to set me straight. If they don't invite me, they must be completely insincere, right? After all, here I am saying that they aren't right. I'm sure they will be rushing to my doorstep any second. And if they don't, I can write them off as frauds, right? And because of their lack of sincerity, you will know them to be untrue.

Krystal Locke
11-08-2012, 01:37 AM
woo? hey, hunter, are you doing the woo? are we into the woo? is that some sort of party with booze and chicks? because if it is, i am in the woo. is the plural of woo, wii? :)

if i told you that i have a degree in hard physical science and one of those hard engineering field, would you still think i am into the woo or whatever that is? then again, maybe i am into woo woo. wonder if i can call it woodo, the way of woo. :D

If you are in the hard sciences/ engineering, and you told me something about IP other than "Wow, there's this weird thing these other guys are doing and we should do it too!" I'd be all ears. You've got a lot of 'splaining to do, Lucy.

And, since I also have a degree and experience in engineering, you could feel free to use pretty big words and complicated ideas, like vectors and normal forces and torque and line integrals and divergence and shit. I aint skeeerd.

So far, I am not convinced there is anything there but good biomechanics. And they seem to be covered up in a lot of vague handwaving about spiralling energy and other inspecific stuff. Tell me something real.

Chris Li
11-08-2012, 02:04 AM
If you are in the hard sciences/ engineering, and you told me something about IP other than "Wow, there's this weird thing these other guys are doing and we should do it too!" I'd be all ears. You've got a lot of 'splaining to do, Lucy.

And, since I also have a degree and experience in engineering, you could feel free to use pretty big words and complicated ideas, like vectors and normal forces and torque and line integrals and divergence and shit. I aint skeeerd.

So far, I am not convinced there is anything there but good biomechanics. And they seem to be covered up in a lot of vague handwaving about spiralling energy and other inspecific stuff. Tell me something real.

Well, in the end I suppose you could say that everything is biomechanics, since we are biomechanical creatures - even thought impulses are biomechanical in nature at some level. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that these things are simple, easily understood, or even generally understood by most people.

There are a number of Chinese classical texts that lay these things out in some detail - if you can wade your way though them.

Best,

Chris

Chris Knight
11-08-2012, 03:18 AM
Hi Matt... well I wish I lived in Hawaii with all the hula hula girls kicking about... :D

Hi Krystal

Through reading and reading and researching albeit for only 12-18 months, and then meeting one of the "Aiki" teachers, (yes I know people have different ideas of what Aiki is), it correlates with my understanding.
It seems a bit too much of a coincidence that all Takeda's (japanese) chosen students, say EXACTLY the same things, and Chen Fake's (chinese) students say EXACTLY the same thing. These are not parlour tricks. Do you really believe Takeda was offering parlour tricks to his chosen transmission students?? Remember that in that era, although he taught 1000's of students, only 2 or 3 were passed down "the goods". Take it or leave it, I'm not interested. I dont have a dog in this debate, it just winds me up when people dont do their research. You really haven't researched in yo, spiral energy, cross body connection if you think they're woo woo... all that stops the second you lay hands on someone with those qualities.
N.b All my opinions are that of my own and dont reflect on my teachers in any way

Cheers
Chris

mrlizard123
11-08-2012, 04:16 AM
The problem David, if you read above, I'm not sincerely interested. I don't think there is anything of interest.

Why start threads about things you're not interested in? :confused:

jss
11-08-2012, 06:18 AM
So far, I am not convinced there is anything there but good biomechanics.
Of course, it's nothing but good biomechanics. Only problem is that it's a very specific set of biomechanics that you will have a very very hard time (if not impossible) to figure out for yourself. And it is a fundamentally different way of moving than normal movement. So if you say "IP is nothing but good biomechanics." that's technically correct, but also somewhat misleading. There are several mutally exclusive biomechanical models of human movement. If you do not move in an IP fashion, you can improve your biomechanics all you want, you will not develop any IP.

And they seem to be covered up in a lot of vague handwaving about spiralling energy and other inspecific stuff. Tell me something real.
The spiralling energy is real. You can feel it in your body in a way similar you can feel yourself lifting your arm. So for the purpose of learning IP and of describing what it feels like those descriptions are very much real. They correspond to proprioceptive reality.
That may not be 'real' as in 'biomechanically real', i.e. correspond to a scientific model of the body. Although I really would like to have such a model for IP, I don't think you will be able to learn IP based on such a model anymore that you could learn how to ride a bike from a biomechinical description. So the fact that we don't have that scientific model doesn't really bother me in the end.

phitruong
11-08-2012, 07:01 AM
If you are in the hard sciences/ engineering, and you told me something about IP other than "Wow, there's this weird thing these other guys are doing and we should do it too!" I'd be all ears. You've got a lot of 'splaining to do, Lucy.

And, since I also have a degree and experience in engineering, you could feel free to use pretty big words and complicated ideas, like vectors and normal forces and torque and line integrals and divergence and shit. I aint skeeerd.

So far, I am not convinced there is anything there but good biomechanics. And they seem to be covered up in a lot of vague handwaving about spiralling energy and other inspecific stuff. Tell me something real.

the foundation of science is to state "i know not what that is" and then go about find ways to explain it, but first and foremost admitting i know not. that's also, the foundation of shoshin. a few years back, at one of the height of aiki war on aikiweb, i was curious about what all these IP/IS/aiki talk. i thought these guys were smoking something really good, maybe they founded the new LSD. so i went out and seek and experience it first hand. in my mind, all these things are just, as you said, good biomechanics (did i mention i also worked on my biomedical enginering degree?) one of the IP practitioner did something to me, and with all my knowledge i could not explain. so i said "i know not what that is". as an experiment, i took what these IP folks offer and worked with it for about 2 years. i felt certain changes within my body. some i could explain, many i still could not. even with the vault knowledge in sciences today, we still do not know many many things about the human body. to said that we can explain everything we do is extremely arrogant. there are many things the ancient did, we still could not explain or understand.

btw, the term jin meant, using mike sigman terminology, mind directed force. it came from the old statement: heart leads mind, mind leads qi/ki, qi/ki leads physical movement. from science point of view, you have mind and biomechanics. the mind is a vast and sophisticate computer with neural networks running throughout the body, that uses various bio, chemical, and electrical processes, at least those are the three that we know of. threre are those that we can directly control and those that are on "automatic". that is just the mind part which we knew so very little about. then the biomechanics which governs by various mechanical and chemical processes and control or not control by the mind, that we know of. we still don't understand so many of these. the amount of stuffs about our body that we don't know are stagering. if you noticed i didn't mention about qi/ki portion. that there is a gap of knowledge that we can't explain very well. because that discussion will lead us to the various questions such as what is life? what is the soul? what makes us so different even though we all have the same body parts?

there are things i can explain and things i cannot. those that i cannot, i accept the terms used by the ancient, until which times my knowledge catches up with my experience, then i will attempt to explain. to do anything else is crazy talk. then again, i wasn't sane in the first place. :)

MM
11-08-2012, 07:31 AM
This is really cute.

Okay David,
This week, at my Dojo I'm going to teach all the secrets passed down to me by my teachers. If you are sincerer about your desire to learn, you'll be here. After all I'm going to teach all of my secrets. So I'll expect to see you soon right?


Let's put this in perspective, Chris.

David Orange who trained with Mochizuki went.
Bill Gleason, who trained with Saotome and Yamaguchi went.
Marc Abrams who trained with Imaizumi and Ushiro went.
Chris Li who trained with too many to list went.
Allen Beebe who trained with Shirata went.
George Ledyard who trained with Saotome went.
That's just the tip of the iceberg.

So, now that *you* are going to teach "all the secrets", (which, btw, is completely different than what the above mentioned people are teaching), you expect people to show up? And are insincere if they don't?

You keep arguing that your definition of "aiki" is right and ours is wrong, yet we have people who have spent up to 40 years in the aikido world with direct students (and that's just the ones who are known publicly). These people that have gone out and put their skills on the line (and failed) are less sincere than you because they didn't expect the mountain to come to them but went to the mountain? Really?


Why or why not?

If you don't end up coming.

Here is the reason you suggest, you are not sincere about your training.

Here is a reason I suggest, it's not that important to you.

Do you like my reason or yours better?

Answer carefully, because I'm going to judge your sincerity in everything you do by your answer...


I like David's, mine, Bill's, Marc's, Chris', Allen's, George's reason better. Their sincerety in their training pushed them to get out and into an unknown, unfamiliar world and lay their reputations on the line. In the end, they learned, they trained, they adapted ... their sincerity allowed them to become better martial artists.

BTW, David traveled all the way to Massachusetts to put his sincerety on the line.

MM
11-08-2012, 07:49 AM
the foundation of science is to state "i know not what that is" and then go about find ways to explain it, but first and foremost admitting i know not. that's also, the foundation of shoshin. a few years back, at one of the height of aiki war on aikiweb, i was curious about what all these IP/IS/aiki talk. i thought these guys were smoking something really good, maybe they founded the new LSD. so i went out and seek and experience it first hand. in my mind, all these things are just, as you said, good biomechanics (did i mention i also worked on my biomedical enginering degree?) one of the IP practitioner did something to me, and with all my knowledge i could not explain. so i said "i know not what that is". as an experiment, i took what these IP folks offer and worked with it for about 2 years. i felt certain changes within my body. some i could explain, many i still could not. even with the vault knowledge in sciences today, we still do not know many many things about the human body. to said that we can explain everything we do is extremely arrogant. there are many things the ancient did, we still could not explain or understand.

btw, the term jin meant, using mike sigman terminology, mind directed force. it came from the old statement: heart leads mind, mind leads qi/ki, qi/ki leads physical movement. from science point of view, you have mind and biomechanics. the mind is a vast and sophisticate computer with neural networks running throughout the body, that uses various bio, chemical, and electrical processes, at least those are the three that we know of. threre are those that we can directly control and those that are on "automatic". that is just the mind part which we knew so very little about. then the biomechanics which governs by various mechanical and chemical processes and control or not control by the mind, that we know of. we still don't understand so many of these. the amount of stuffs about our body that we don't know are stagering. if you noticed i didn't mention about qi/ki portion. that there is a gap of knowledge that we can't explain very well. because that discussion will lead us to the various questions such as what is life? what is the soul? what makes us so different even though we all have the same body parts?

there are things i can explain and things i cannot. those that i cannot, i accept the terms used by the ancient, until which times my knowledge catches up with my experience, then i will attempt to explain. to do anything else is crazy talk. then again, i wasn't sane in the first place. :)

That was worth reposting. :D

David Orange
11-08-2012, 08:00 AM
This is really cute.

Is it, now? After I just sent you such a nice PM?

Okay David,
This week, at my Dojo I'm going to teach all the secrets passed down to me by my teachers. If you are sincerer about your desire to learn, you'll be here. After all I'm going to teach all of my secrets. So I'll expect to see you soon right?

Why or why not?

:)

If you don't end up coming.

Here is the reason you suggest, you are not sincere about your training.

Here is a reason I suggest, it's not that important to you.

Do you like my reason or yours better?


Answer carefully, because I'm going to judge your sincerity in everything you do by your answer...

Don't make me be harsher in public than I was in the PM, Chris. Good grief, you complained about what I was saying in public...such statements as these are what get you such harsh answers.

But to be frank, why would I consider your secrets worth coming across town for?

Has anyone written, "I thought Chris Hein was full of it, but when I met him, I couldn't move him, and with a slight touch, he knocked me back several feet!"

....no...I don't recall ever hearing anyone report such experiences with you. Plus, I've seen your videos...and I've read what you have to say...so...even if I had my bicycle back from my ex and I could pedal across town to meet you...I probably wouldn't.

I tell you what, If any of these IP experts, in my state, wish me to come and see them, I'll accept any invitation made in the next three months. Now if they are super sincere they'll want to show me that I am wrong, and try to set me straight. If they don't invite me, they must be completely insincere, right? After all, here I am saying that they aren't right. I'm sure they will be rushing to my doorstep any second. And if they don't, I can write them off as frauds, right? And because of their lack of sincerity, you will know them to be untrue.

Don't forget, Chris, Ueshiba didn't go to people to prove them wrong. He just did his thing and so many people talked about his great power as well as the things he said, that others ran to Uehsiba to prove that they could beat him. Same with Dan. He made "outrageous" statements on forums and people went to him. I was very impressed by Mark Murray's account of meeting Dan briefly and it was as I wrote above: "I couldn't move him and he could hit me hard with almost no movement!"

And it's as Dan and others have often said: if you understand what they're doing, you will be known for unusual power and the word will get around, and people will come to you. Unfortunately, you're sending quite the opposite message about yourself.

So, not to be mean...but... I'm sure it will come off that way...because you've "explained" what Chen Xiao Wang is doing and simplified his seventy years of tai chi development to "a trick."

But I'm also pretty sure it will continue until you meet somebody who really knows the subject and experience in person what you've tried to analyze through video.

Good luck.

David

Howard Popkin
11-08-2012, 08:08 AM
Let's put this in perspective, Chris.

David Orange who trained with Mochizuki went.
Bill Gleason, who trained with Saotome and Yamaguchi went.
Marc Abrams who trained with Imaizumi and Ushiro went.
Chris Li who trained with too many to list went.
Allen Beebe who trained with Shirata went.
George Ledyard who trained with Saotome went.
That's just the tip of the iceberg.

So, now that *you* are going to teach "all the secrets", (which, btw, is completely different than what the above mentioned people are teaching), you expect people to show up? And are insincere if they don't?

You keep arguing that your definition of "aiki" is right and ours is wrong, yet we have people who have spent up to 40 years in the aikido world with direct students (and that's just the ones who are known publicly). These people that have gone out and put their skills on the line (and failed) are less sincere than you because they didn't expect the mountain to come to them but went to the mountain? Really?

I like David's, mine, Bill's, Marc's, Chris', Allen's, George's reason better. Their sincerety in their training pushed them to get out and into an unknown, unfamiliar world and lay their reputations on the line. In the end, they learned, they trained, they adapted ... their sincerity allowed them to become better martial artists.

BTW, David traveled all the way to Massachusetts to put his sincerety on the line.

You calling me an iceberg ? I know I'm fat...but iceberg ???? ;)

Lorel Latorilla
11-08-2012, 08:17 AM
The problem David, if you read above, I'm not sincerely interested. I don't think there is anything of interest. I'm mostly just annoyed. I would go to a Dan Harden seminar, if Dan would let me come.

And you wonder why some people are not interested in having a "discussion" with you? And you wonder why Dan won't let you come into his seminar?

Lorel Latorilla
11-08-2012, 08:25 AM
Is it, now? After I just sent you such a nice PM?

:)

Don't make me be harsher in public than I was in the PM, Chris. Good grief, you complained about what I was saying in public...such statements as these are what get you such harsh answers.

But to be frank, why would I consider your secrets worth coming across town for?

Has anyone written, "I thought Chris Hein was full of it, but when I met him, I couldn't move him, and with a slight touch, he knocked me back several feet!"

....no...I don't recall ever hearing anyone report such experiences with you. Plus, I've seen your videos...and I've read what you have to say...so...even if I had my bicycle back from my ex and I could pedal across town to meet you...I probably wouldn't.

Don't forget, Chris, Ueshiba didn't go to people to prove them wrong. He just did his thing and so many people talked about his great power as well as the things he said, that others ran to Uehsiba to prove that they could beat him. Same with Dan. He made "outrageous" statements on forums and people went to him. I was very impressed by Mark Murray's account of meeting Dan briefly and it was as I wrote above: "I couldn't move him and he could hit me hard with almost no movement!"

And it's as Dan and others have often said: if you understand what they're doing, you will be known for unusual power and the word will get around, and people will come to you. Unfortunately, you're sending quite the opposite message about yourself.

So, not to be mean...but... I'm sure it will come off that way...because you've "explained" what Chen Xiao Wang is doing and simplified his seventy years of tai chi development to "a trick."

But I'm also pretty sure it will continue until you meet somebody who really knows the subject and experience in person what you've tried to analyze through video.

Good luck.

David

I don't think Chris can deny your sincerity in the thought that he has nothing new to offer and isn't worth visiting (which is not all so bad considering that you've trained with Mochizuki himself!).

gregstec
11-08-2012, 08:57 AM
the foundation of science is to state "i know not what that is" and then go about find ways to explain it, but first and foremost admitting i know not. that's also, the foundation of shoshin. a few years back, at one of the height of aiki war on aikiweb, i was curious about what all these IP/IS/aiki talk. i thought these guys were smoking something really good, maybe they founded the new LSD. so i went out and seek and experience it first hand. in my mind, all these things are just, as you said, good biomechanics (did i mention i also worked on my biomedical enginering degree?) one of the IP practitioner did something to me, and with all my knowledge i could not explain. so i said "i know not what that is". as an experiment, i took what these IP folks offer and worked with it for about 2 years. i felt certain changes within my body. some i could explain, many i still could not. even with the vault knowledge in sciences today, we still do not know many many things about the human body. to said that we can explain everything we do is extremely arrogant. there are many things the ancient did, we still could not explain or understand.

btw, the term jin meant, using mike sigman terminology, mind directed force. it came from the old statement: heart leads mind, mind leads qi/ki, qi/ki leads physical movement. from science point of view, you have mind and biomechanics. the mind is a vast and sophisticate computer with neural networks running throughout the body, that uses various bio, chemical, and electrical processes, at least those are the three that we know of. threre are those that we can directly control and those that are on "automatic". that is just the mind part which we knew so very little about. then the biomechanics which governs by various mechanical and chemical processes and control or not control by the mind, that we know of. we still don't understand so many of these. the amount of stuffs about our body that we don't know are stagering. if you noticed i didn't mention about qi/ki portion. that there is a gap of knowledge that we can't explain very well. because that discussion will lead us to the various questions such as what is life? what is the soul? what makes us so different even though we all have the same body parts?

there are things i can explain and things i cannot. those that i cannot, i accept the terms used by the ancient, until which times my knowledge catches up with my experience, then i will attempt to explain. to do anything else is crazy talk. then again, i wasn't sane in the first place. :)

Sometimes you not so funny, which is a good thing too :D

I like your point that we must admit there are things we just do not know regardless of any level of experience and education - no one has all the answers, and to assume you can explain all things based on your limited knowledge, is not just arrogant, but just plain dumb.

"True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing"
Socrates

Greg

akiy
11-08-2012, 09:59 AM
Hi folks,

Let's keep the tone here respectful and keep from drifting into discussions of a personal nature, please.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Rob Watson
11-08-2012, 11:42 AM
Second, is this a fair demonstration of, example of "IP"?

Right up there with the unbendable arm as testimony to the amazing power of aikido.

ChrisHein
11-08-2012, 12:02 PM
Why start threads about things you're not interested in? :confused:

Im interested in a martial art I care about not getting muddled in a mess that it's going to take years to shake. I'm not interested in going to some guys seminar and being a jerk.

The only thing the supporters of the IP community continuously offer up is "you have to feel this stuff to get it". Having a feeling about something doesn't make it so. There isn't anything we can objectively look at to show something is happening.

If we are trying to prove something, either scientifically or philosophically, the burden of proof is with the person claiming the positive result. So if you claim something exists that burden is with you. Now if you ask one of the experts with in the IP world to prove their positive, they don't, why? If you ask one of the supporters, they don't offer any proof, because they say they don't have IT. So the Experts aren't in the business of proving what they do, and the supporters can't do it because they don't know how. No one claiming a positive is showing anything.

So, you don't care if there is anything to "IP", you just like doing it. I get it.

David Orange
11-08-2012, 12:15 PM
Im interested in a martial art I care about not getting muddled in a mess that it's going to take years to shake. I'm not interested in going to some guys seminar and being a jerk.

Don't worry, Chris. You wouldn't be a jerk for long.

The only thing the supporters of the IP community continuously offer up is "you have to feel this stuff to get it". Having a feeling about something doesn't make it so. There isn't anything we can objectively look at to show something is happening.

Again, I've said that "feel" is just another term for "experience." You haven't experienced it, so how can you judge it? And make no mistake, the people who have "felt" it have broad bases of experience to compare it to. We've felt all kinds of very powerful people doing "regular" aikido, but what we've experienced from the IP contingent is very different.

If we are trying to prove something, either scientifically or philosophically, the burden of proof is with the person claiming the positive result. So if you claim something exists that burden is with you. Now if you ask one of the experts with in the IP world to prove their positive, they don't, why?

Because you don't show up. You expect them to "phone it in"? That will never happen. And the people who "can" do aren't worried about explaining or proving it scientifically or philosophically. They're proving it in action.

If you ask one of the supporters, they don't offer any proof, because they say they don't have IT. So the Experts aren't in the business of proving what they do, and the supporters can't do it because they don't know how. No one claiming a positive is showing anything.

So, you don't care if there is anything to "IP", you just like doing it. I get it.

Chris, the experts are going all over the world proving it to anyone who comes to them. And you just like staying safely away from it and criticizing it. Face it, man. These people aren't going to come to your door and beg you to take what they've earned by serious struggle. You've got to put up to get anything. Keyboard warriors get nothing.

David

jonreading
11-08-2012, 01:13 PM
I am not an internal power guy. I have worked with several who are stepping into that study and I am impressed. From my experience and observation, to the argument of internal power:
1. External and internal structure are different. The old "New York lock" hanmi and the external structure of bones to receive a unidirectional force is not the same thing as what I feel from the internal guys.
2. You do not have to do it. I know plenty of good aikido people out there who are not going to consider training their internal structure.

I am impressed with the stuff that Choate, Ledyard, Gleason, Messisco, Saotome and others I have grabbed. They are doing aikido with internal foundation and it feels devastating. It represents a direction in which I can go that will expand my aikido.

My opinion is that this training is not for everyone. I think there was a reason it phased out of mainstream aikido. I think we are lucky to have people who know and can explain what is going on so aikidoka can reintegrate the curriculum into aikido. To be fair, I am also thankful for the Daito Ryu people and the karate people who are helping to reintegrate other aspects of aikido back into our training.

However, I think this stuff is revolutionary and the haves will begin to outshine the have nots.

Brett Charvat
11-08-2012, 03:05 PM
If we are trying to prove something, either scientifically or philosophically, the burden of proof is with the person claiming the positive result. So if you claim something exists that burden is with you. Now if you ask one of the experts with in the IP world to prove their positive, they don't, why?

--Um, I'm not sure which IP experts you're referring to, but I've asked several to prove themselves to me, and they all have very handily. But here's the thing; in each case I actually had to pull my fat ass up off the couch, get dressed, and venture to their location. I even had to fly to Japan a couple of times. Not a single one of those IP experts knocked on my door and begged to show me their stuff. I'm not sure why that seems unreasonable to you; could you explain further?

HL1978
11-08-2012, 03:17 PM
Im interested in a martial art I care about not getting muddled in a mess that it's going to take years to shake. I'm not interested in going to some guys seminar and being a jerk.

The only thing the supporters of the IP community continuously offer up is "you have to feel this stuff to get it". Having a feeling about something doesn't make it so. There isn't anything we can objectively look at to show something is happening.

If we are trying to prove something, either scientifically or philosophically, the burden of proof is with the person claiming the positive result. So if you claim something exists that burden is with you. Now if you ask one of the experts with in the IP world to prove their positive, they don't, why? If you ask one of the supporters, they don't offer any proof, because they say they don't have IT. So the Experts aren't in the business of proving what they do, and the supporters can't do it because they don't know how. No one claiming a positive is showing anything.

So, you don't care if there is anything to "IP", you just like doing it. I get it.

Can you solve a calculus problem without knowing the rules of calculus? Can you describe how it feels to keep your balance while riding a bicycle to someone who has never experienced it? As a newbie to martial arts, can you see what your seniors are doing right or wrong when the move?

Once you have experience, can you see how to solve a calculus problem or when someone is doing it wrong? After riding a bicycle can you discuss with others how to it feels to have that balance in different situations? After some martial arts experience can you see what makes a technique work or not? For all of these, requisite experience is required before you can see, comment or understand. Why would this not be the case when one is discusing a rather esoteric subject like IP, where the knowledge out there is limited?

Now anecdotal evidence is not persuasive, but when you get volumes of it, then it is a point worth considering. Not to rely on argument by authority, but even when experienced people see value in it and have reputations on the line and say the same thing, one may be persauded that there is something to the story.

If you poke around on aikiweb enough through the archives on here and elsewhere, yes you will find studies of IS people being hooked up to machines, yes you will find that some of the guys giving seminars out there have been hooked up to machines, yes you will find stories of kienseology (horrible spelling there) profs attending classes and saying this doesn't conform to our normal understanding of the body, yes you will find various people with MMA/BJJ/Judo/KB competition records feeling these guys and saying its something fundamentally different, and you will find accounts from plenty of naysayers of "oops I was wrong". This has been going on for years and the numbers of links to these discussions in the archives on this board and elsewhere are too large to repeat.

Cady Goldfield
11-08-2012, 04:12 PM
Chris Hein,

Sam Chin, head of the family internal martial art of I Liq Chuan, is teaching a two-day workshop in Southern California in January. It would be an excellent opportunity for you to experience IP (and aiki) firsthand. Many of his workshop participants are students of aikido and Daito-ryu. He will give anyone who asks a hands-on opportunity to feel him demonstrate what he is talking about.

http://iliqchuan.com/content/southern-california-workshop-2013

Krystal Locke
11-08-2012, 04:36 PM
I am glad that science doesn't stop with the "OMG, that's weird! I dont know!" but makes an effort to figure out what is actually there. Science chooses a direction, a focus, based on "I dont know", but quickly uses what it does know to explore and evaluate that unknown. Y'all say there's something there, I'll take a look. I'm not going to assume that I will have the same experience as you, and I certainly wouldn't interpret my experience the way others have interpreted theirs. That's why experiments have to be repeatable and results have to be consistent and reproducible for good science to have happened.

I will check out a seminar as soon as I can. I will go into it with an open yet always skeptical mind and I will listen and train in good faith. The rest remains to be seen. Or felt. Or experienced. Or something. And then replicated, dissected, analyzed, explained, understood, repeated, challenged and tested again.

David Orange
11-08-2012, 05:21 PM
I will check out a seminar as soon as I can. I will go into it with an open yet always skeptical mind and I will listen and train in good faith. The rest remains to be seen. Or felt. Or experienced. Or something. And then replicated, dissected, analyzed, explained, understood, repeated, challenged and tested again.

That's the best attitude to take, Krystal. Don't reject it without experiencing it. And don't try to explain it without direct evidence. And the only way to get that is to go and feel it (experience it).

If you can explain it then, I'll be impressed.

Remember, that not all scientists even accept the existence of "mind". Neurologically speaking, all we know is chemical processes...but read Moby Dick and you have a direct experience of the mind of an artist.

I appreciate science, but the best scientists understand that science is only a process of reaching toward understanding. It doesn't guarantee that full understanding will ever be achieved, though the phenomena in question are accepted as real.

FWIW

David

yugen
11-08-2012, 05:26 PM
Chris Hein,

Sam Chin, head of the family internal martial art of I Liq Chuan, is teaching a two-day workshop in Southern California in January. It would be an excellent opportunity for you to experience IP (and aiki) firsthand. Many of his workshop participants are students of aikido and Daito-ryu. He will give anyone who asks a hands-on opportunity to feel him demonstrate what he is talking about.

http://iliqchuan.com/content/southern-california-workshop-2013

A sooner option is December 8th & 9th in Oakland, I'm making the trip from Seattle. Sifu Chin will be at this seminar.

http://iliqchuan.com/content/san-francisco-oakland-workshop-june-4-5th

Bernie Langan is an ILC instructor and host of the December seminar, his bio of experience is impressive and would be a great person for anyone to discuss IP/IS and play with.

http://www.stillnessinmotion.com/about/bio

James Sawers
11-08-2012, 05:27 PM
.
I will check out a seminar as soon as I can. I will go into it with an open yet always skeptical mind and I will listen and train in good faith. The rest remains to be seen. Or felt. Or experienced. Or something. And then replicated, dissected, analyzed, explained, understood, repeated, challenged and tested again.

Gee, you must be fun on a date :) Somewhat more seriously, each "date" is an actual event, but is felt by each participant differently. These differences in experience do not negate the fact that a "date" actually happened. Some things may be difficult to put under the "scientific" microscope, though I guess you could measure the various physiological changes taking place in each participant's body (psychological changes? - take a pre-post test maybe?). Might take some of the fun out of the experience and may affect the results....like measuring "fun"??

'Course, I haver never been to one of these IP seminars, except with a brief session with Ikeda Sensei, some time ago, so I cannot speak from direct experience, though I am certainly willing to attend if one comes into my region.

I look forward to hearing Krystal's report on her experience.

In good practice........Jim

gregstec
11-08-2012, 06:10 PM
I am glad that science doesn't stop with the "OMG, that's weird! I dont know!" but makes an effort to figure out what is actually there. Science chooses a direction, a focus, based on "I dont know", but quickly uses what it does know to explore and evaluate that unknown. Y'all say there's something there, I'll take a look. I'm not going to assume that I will have the same experience as you, and I certainly wouldn't interpret my experience the way others have interpreted theirs. That's why experiments have to be repeatable and results have to be consistent and reproducible for good science to have happened.

I will check out a seminar as soon as I can. I will go into it with an open yet always skeptical mind and I will listen and train in good faith. The rest remains to be seen. Or felt. Or experienced. Or something. And then replicated, dissected, analyzed, explained, understood, repeated, challenged and tested again.

An absolutely great approach to take :)

Greg

ChrisHein
11-08-2012, 06:21 PM
Chris Hein,

Sam Chin, head of the family internal martial art of I Liq Chuan, is teaching a two-day workshop in Southern California in January. It would be an excellent opportunity for you to experience IP (and aiki) firsthand. Many of his workshop participants are students of aikido and Daito-ryu. He will give anyone who asks a hands-on opportunity to feel him demonstrate what he is talking about.

http://iliqchuan.com/content/southern-california-workshop-2013

I'm still not sure why I can't go and see Dan Harden...

Cady Goldfield
11-08-2012, 06:34 PM
I'm still not sure why I can't go and see Dan Harden...

That was not the purpose of my post, only to point out that there are opportunities to experience IP and aiki, and there are I Liq Chuan workshops scheduled for your neck of the woods. It shouldn't matter what or who is the source of the skills, but that they and the opportunity to experience IP and aiki are there.

David Orange
11-08-2012, 06:40 PM
I'm still not sure why I can't go and see Dan Harden...

Maybe because you've been rude...not sure what you can do about that.

I'd suggest going to see Mike Sigman, Howie Popkin, Forrest Chang, Ark or Sam Chinn.

David

HL1978
11-08-2012, 06:43 PM
Getting back to the video, check out this post (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=318675&postcount=80) in the other thread. What do people see in the CXW video between what the strong man is doing and what CXW is doing for several of the topics covered?

robin_jet_alt
11-08-2012, 07:10 PM
I really don't see why people get so worked up about this. I have never met any of the "IP experts", but given the chance, why not check them out and see what they have to offer? At worst, you will have wasted a day or so and a bit of money, and at best, you might learn something. From my perspective, I have seen and felt some pretty amazing stuff from some great aikido teachers, and I have a feeling that that may just be the tip of the iceberg. To be honest, if all there is to aikido is just spinning around in circles and twisting wrists, then why do we do it? If there is nothing more to learn, then why train?

I can certainly understand Chris offering a hypothesis on how CXW does what he does, and defending that hypothesis. There is no need for that to get nasty. The crux of the matter is that there is no way for either side to prove their point over the internet, so it just devolves into "he's stupid - no he's stupid".

Personally, comparing what I am seeing to what I have felt from certain teachers, the IP hypothesis makes a lot more sense.

jonreading
11-08-2012, 09:16 PM
I can certainly understand Chris offering a hypothesis on how CXW does what he does, and defending that hypothesis. There is no need for that to get nasty. The crux of the matter is that there is no way for either side to prove their point over the internet, so it just devolves into "he's stupid - no he's stupid".


For the record, the keyboard command for internal strength is CTRL+ALT+I+P, then in sequence -up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, Start (or select start if playing with two players). This command will break any computer that receives it.

David Orange
11-08-2012, 10:43 PM
I can certainly understand Chris offering a hypothesis on how CXW does what he does, and defending that hypothesis. There is no need for that to get nasty. The crux of the matter is that there is no way for either side to prove their point over the internet, so it just devolves into "he's stupid - no he's stupid".

Personally, comparing what I am seeing to what I have felt from certain teachers, the IP hypothesis makes a lot more sense.

Absolutely. There are people openly teaching now what has been kept secret for hundreds if not a thousand or more years. They're not only proving they can do it, they're explaining exactly how it's done. The only requirement is that you go and meet them and feel what they're doing and let them guide you in developing it. And anyone who puts in the work (with a discerning mind) can make tremendous progress. I would have made much more progress if I'd been able to continue meeting with these people. If I were a professional teacher, I would certainly manage it.

It's not really a matter of "he's stupid - no he's stupid." It a question of "Why do you keep saying the same things over and over when everyone who has directly experienced it has told you you don't understand?"

I mean, these teachers are teaching the real stuff, in detail. They're showing exactly how it's done. Why waste time speculating about it when you can find out quickly? And why keep making the same arguments after being corrected scores of times by so many people who have been instructed in detail?

Speaking of annoying....

:)

David

Krystal Locke
11-08-2012, 11:54 PM
Ok, so here's a question, flat out, straight up. Do the IP folk think Hiroshi Ikeda sensei has it or a part of it? (We'll leave Lee's protestations of having better breathing aside for the moment...) He's visiting in December, he's talked about internal stuff the last few times he's been here, can I save myself a chunk of change by cornering him and getting some of the goods from him?

I'd still find another seminar to go to, but no reason not to take advantage of an opportunity that is right in my lap.

And, yes, I know I am poking at a hornet's nest. PM if you want. The whole point of this thread is that it is really hard to get an honest reliable opinion.....

David Orange
11-09-2012, 12:04 AM
Ok, so here's a question, flat out, straight up. Do the IP folk think Hiroshi Ikeda sensei has it or a part of it? (We'll leave Lee's protestations of having better breathing aside for the moment...) He's visiting in December, he's talked about internal stuff the last few times he's been here, can I save myself a chunk of change by cornering him and getting some of the goods from him?

Knowing very little of Ikeda Sensei, I can only go by what I've heard--that he is working with IP. I can't say to what extent, but it seems he's going that way. But it also seems that it's "aikido first" with him and you might not get as "pure" a take on IP itself. Again, I don't know much about him. Just what I've read and some video clips I've seen.

I'd still find another seminar to go to, but no reason not to take advantage of an opportunity that is right in my lap.

Absolutely. I'd just say to be sure to meet up with Dan or Mike or Ark or Forrest or someone with a reputation for solid IP in itself.

Good luck.

David

phitruong
11-09-2012, 08:10 AM
Ok, so here's a question, flat out, straight up. Do the IP folk think Hiroshi Ikeda sensei has it or a part of it?.

yes. before he started the internal stuffs, his aikido was superb. he got a set of 4 videos that you can judge for yourself. when he started in the internal stuffs, he's no longer focus on techniques. i have been to various aikido seminars with other aikido schools from other organizations. most if not all usually the teacher shown various versions of aikido techniques. i have learned umpteen different ways to do ikkyo. seminar with Ikeda sensei is quite different. he doesn't teach technique. he teaches what make techniques work on anybody. years back, his explanations were very hard to understand. over the years, his explanations got better (either that or i have better understanding after exposure to IP crowd). his english isn't sufficient to explain the details of his demonstration. i wrote a translation table somewhere on aikiweb. when he said technique, it meant IP. when he said technique movement, it meant the regular aikido technique like shigonage, ikkyo and so on. he will say he's teaching technique. pay attention when he said he's moving his inside. it meant hara/dantien movement which is the foundation of IP. for example, in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St7I0M2fx1c when he said your center (he used to say your inside) moves 360 (you need to extrapolate that to mean in spherical coordinate, as in anywhere on the 3D sphere).

i don't know what other folks experience were, but i will give you mine. for years, i went to Ikeda sensei seminars, listened to his explanations, took ukemi from him, but could not for the life of me understand his teaching or even remotely doing things the way he did. interestingly enough, i practiced with folks who went the his seminars for longer than i had, but they didn't feel or did things remotely like him, and i am not talking about kyu rank folks. i was quite frustrated to say the least, but he's my shihan and he's one of my role models in aikido. so during the heated debate on IP/aiki a few years back on aikiweb, i went out and attended workshops with IP folks. they did stuffs that feel like Ikeda sensei and then some. luckily they were also native english speaker and could explain in details on what they did and how to train for it which is much more important. you heard the IP crowd mentioned about lots of solo training, it was and is. now i understand Ikeda sensei perfectly and feel exactly what he did to me when i am uke for him. before, i knew he broke my balance, but didn't know how he did it. now i do. this is important. your body has to change in order to feel it. this is the foundation of "stealing technique" method. he won't tell you about his solo practices. i pestered him about it so he told me a couples, for example, doing push hand with the office chair or direct jin to go back and forth between my left hand and my right hand (he let me touch his arms and did it slowly so i can feel it). he will relate his teaching back to aikido movements. he said he gave you ideas and it was.

one time i asked him when does he practice his stuffs, since he spent lots of time traveling all over the places teaching seminars. he smiled and said "i was practicing".

so if your interest in a new or different way of doing ikkyo or shihonage and so on, then don't bother to go to his seminar. if you interest in how to make those aikido movements work, regardless of who your uke, then go. also, he's quite funny which is very enjoyable learning.

btw, he got a bunch of DVDs on internal stuffs. you could only get them at his seminars. i asked him one time why he didn't sell it on bujin site. he said folks watch his videos and thought what he did was fake and he didn't want to do that. essentially, try before buy. and yes, i got most of his DVDs. in return, i also know how he wants his coffee. i had to contract out to the CIA, FBI, NSA and all the alphabet soups. took years to get the right intelligent. they couldn't get it. i resorted to torture and water boarding was not enough. i asked him how he wanted his coffee at a starbuck drive thru. and no, i ain't telling. you have to torture me to get it. :D

Eric in Denver
11-09-2012, 09:57 AM
Ok, so here's a question, flat out, straight up. Do the IP folk think Hiroshi Ikeda sensei has it or a part of it? (We'll leave Lee's protestations of having better breathing aside for the moment...) He's visiting in December, he's talked about internal stuff the last few times he's been here, can I save myself a chunk of change by cornering him and getting some of the goods from him?

I'd still find another seminar to go to, but no reason not to take advantage of an opportunity that is right in my lap.

And, yes, I know I am poking at a hornet's nest. PM if you want. The whole point of this thread is that it is really hard to get an honest reliable opinion.....

I think Ikeda is a great segue into this kind of training for aikido folks. I have been to one of his seminars and have been up to Boulder for his Wednesday Internals class a few times, and I think it is a great intro. I don't know if it is more than a great intro because I really, really suck at this stuff and haven't gotten far enough along to be able to speak to it any more than that.

The other reason I say intro is because from my exposure to the IS paradigm, it requires a huge amount of solo work, and Ikeda doesn't seem to teach those exercises, at least not publicly. Or, at least not to me :D

Chris Li
11-09-2012, 11:13 AM
his english isn't sufficient to explain the details of his demonstration. i wrote a translation table somewhere on aikiweb. when he said technique, it meant IP. when he said technique movement, it meant the regular aikido technique like shigonage, ikkyo and so on. he will say he's teaching technique. pay attention when he said he's moving his inside. it meant hara/dantien movement which is the foundation of IP. for example, in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St7I0M2fx1c when he said your center (he used to say your inside) moves 360 (you need to extrapolate that to mean in spherical coordinate, as in anywhere on the 3D sphere).

I think that the last time I saw Ikeda was in the late 1980's, so I can't comment much on the IP direction he's been taking, except to say that I've heard similar comments from other people - his explanations could still be clearer. For that reason, you may have a better time understanding Dan, Mike, or even Sam (who's English also isn't 100%, but has developed a very clear framework for explaining things).

OTOH, Ikeda was always one of my favorite Aikido folks, both in terms of what he could do and in terms of personality.

Allen Beebe's in your area - and he and his guys have been working on this stuff enough to give you a window into it, I'm sure.

Best,

Chris

Janet Rosen
11-09-2012, 01:03 PM
Krystal, YES it is worth your while to do the seminar w/ Ikeda Sensei - in terms of timing, you might "get more" out of it were you to have one session/seminar w/ a non-aikido IP/IS person, but since what Ikeda Sensei does is apply it within aikido, his seminars are for me about the best aikido seminars to attend these days because they focus on aikido partner practices that encompass a lot of IP/IS.

Krystal Locke
11-09-2012, 01:06 PM
Great, thanks y'all. I never miss Ikeda's visits anyway, but I will use the opportunity to look at the internal stuff he's bringing. Maybe I'll buy the dvds this time.

Oh, and thanks for the suggestion about Allen Beebe. He's still a 4 hour drive away, but I can look and plan for a seminar. Thanks.

thisisnotreal
11-13-2012, 11:42 AM
My japanese is better than my chinese (I speak chinese at home as my inlaws don't speak english), but I will see if I can get a translation for you tonight.
Hi Hunter, That would be very kind of you.
Cheers,
Josh

HL1978
11-14-2012, 08:47 PM
Hi Hunter, That would be very kind of you.
Cheers,
Josh

I havent been ignoring this, I hope to get some help with the translation soon.

john.burn
11-15-2012, 06:03 AM
when he said technique, it meant IP. when he said technique movement, it meant the regular aikido technique like shigonage, ikkyo and so on. he will say he's teaching technique. pay attention when he said he's moving his inside. it meant hara/dantien movement which is the foundation of IP.

Hi Phi,

He actually stated this exact thing in the UK earlier this year. He said that he calls internal work technique. I think his explanations now make so much sense (but I have the benefit of having met Mike Sigman).

I can't believe you took him to Starbucks and lived to tell the tale! It was Blue Mountain all the way in the UK ;) .

thisisnotreal
11-15-2012, 08:43 AM
he won't tell you about his solo practices.
That is too bad.
Why, you think?
How does peoples get better if not directly taught the work?

john.burn
11-15-2012, 09:09 AM
That is too bad.
Why, you think?
How does peoples get better if not directly taught the work?

He said that he will not feed us all like baby birds and that we have to figure out some of these things for ourselves - he can only tell you how he uses his body - not necessarily your body.

If you actually ask him if this or that is a good way to train yourself he'll give you his opinion, also, the last few seminars in Europe I've been on he has given solo examples. Some will be on the UK seminar DVD - he demonstrated a few.

phitruong
11-15-2012, 09:39 AM
If you actually ask him if this or that is a good way to train yourself he'll give you his opinion, also, the last few seminars in Europe I've been on he has given solo examples. Some will be on the UK seminar DVD - he demonstrated a few.

yup. this is where sigman and others come in. they provided the basic frameworks. i was glad that i ran into those guys. wish it could have happen sooner, so i didn't spent years in frustration.

john, speaking of DVD. how do i go about getting my hands on that DVDs? do i need to hop over the pond and twist your arms? :)

john.burn
11-15-2012, 09:54 AM
Keep an eye on our website - should have been finialised the other week but I wasn't happy once it was compressed down from the HD footage to DVD so it should be finalised this Sunday all being well.

Happy to post it to the US etc.