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MM
10-29-2012, 08:53 AM
Spun off the "resp to Kokyu Rokyu thread" thread.


Those that do understand in Japan say it is very important to have the right mindset...you basically have to feel humble inside. Those that go off thinking about power etc are going to be in big trouble for sure...they can end up like some Stitch thing with all kinds of mental issues and confrontational problems. This kind of training can easily change your personality and not always for the best. Remember even Stitch went looking for a family...lol ^^
Lee

Pretty good advice in most of that post, but this section deserves highlighting IMO. I always wondered about people who say, spent hours on end on their own in a room practicing sumo stomps
with the intention of becoming unbeatable fighter, like Sagawa Yukiyoshi apparently did. It just can"t be good for your social skills, to say the least! I believe that this is one reason why a lot of solo training was practiced in the forms of calligraphy, dance, painting, tea ceremony etc. You were focussed on creating something beautiful that benefitted others.


Er, no, I"m not. I'm pointing out that obsessive practice focussed on empowering oneself over others can turn people into monomanical and selfish individuals. If you want to be like Sagawa, then off you go and train like Sagawa, just don"t be surprised if you turn out like him.

It's a topic all on its own. Like Oisin Bourke noted, it deserves highlighting.

We don't know a lot about Sokaku Takeda, but what we do know is that he could kill. He had the fighting abilities and power to hurt, maim, and kill. The stories handed down highlight some of the these things in Takeda's life. It also seemed that Takeda was obsessive compulsive about training. He was also very stubborn. Yet, in those same stories handed down, we find it rare that Takeda maimed or killed anyone in training.

We don't know a lot about Yukiyoshi Sagawa. The book, Transparent Power, is the most info that appears in one place. What do we know from it? Well, first, he was obsessive compulsive and stubborn about training. He trained more than anyone else that he knew. It was very tough to get into his dojo. Training there is reportedly very hard, but again, reports of Sagawa maiming or killing anyone are rare.

We don't know a lot about Kodo Horikawa. However, if we take the above two as guides, we can pretty much guess that Horikawa was obsessive compulsive about training. He was one of the top three: Horikawa, Sagawa, Ueshiba. And it is rare to hear of anyone being maimed or killed in his dojo.

We get to the famous one: Morihei Ueshiba. Stubborn. Obsessive compulsive. Quested for power and strength. He stated, proudly, that he would be a budo teacher. Chanted for hours. Trained all the time, everywhere.

Each of the aiki greats had a few things in common: obsessive/compulsive, stubborn behavior all directed towards training for strength (martial, not physical) and power.

Yet, all were not known for breaking their students. Not purposefully, anyway. I've heard of more injuries coming from Ueshiba's students than from any of them. Why did those who didn't have aiki like Ueshiba need to cause so much harm and damage to students while the aiki greats had far more power but far less injuries to students? Muscle/jujutsu vs aiki/power where power in this case is far less harmful.

Were they monomaniacs? Yeah, I think all of them were. I think they applied that to their training to become as great as they did. Sagawa told the truth and no one liked hearing it. He *did* train far more than anyone else ... except maybe Ueshiba and Horikawa. Maybe. Who knows. They were all peers and never publicly tested each other.

In these instances, the qualities of monomania, obsessive/compulsive, and stubbornness were applied in a generally healthy manner to allow for progressive, healthy martial growth in each individual. As opposed to, say, some of Ueshiba's students and dojos which were famous for breaking people.

wxyzabc
10-29-2012, 09:16 AM
Hya Mark

I'll say something. All the people you have pointed to are deceased. I don't think there's a person on this forum that met any of them, so we can only listen to the words of others and trust their judgement...rightly or wrongly. That said if you are looking at Ueshiba he didn't exactly live a balanced life in the way that most would understand...nor did Sagawa from what I understand. Ueshiba didn't have a job and it seems he often spent his days in supplication.

I'm not going to make a judgement on that but it's not what most want is it now?.

I do know what can happen with aiki training gone wrong. It doesn't always produce a wonderful person and can lead to all manner of problems? my previous comments were to highlight that things can go wrong, they have and will again if people don't take care.

There's now some 10,000,000 people practising aikido...are you Mark going to take responsibility for them? especially when you've been telling them all kind of mistruths about a country I don't believe you have spent much time in?

It may seem a bit nasty, but then do you have a fully connected body and know what it really takes to get there so can speak with any kind of authority? just interested....

All the best

Lee
p.s. I don't take kindly to having my words requoted and connected to other people I didn't address.

Janet Rosen
10-29-2012, 09:18 AM
I would not use the term obsessive-compulsive which properly describes attention to rituals and details that don't have meaning or add to life (nobody ever got credit, much less world renown in any field, for having the cleanest hands in town or avoiding every fourth crack in the sidewalk).

However I've long held that most - not all, but most - people who actually devote their lives to something, anything, to the point that it changes the world are probably not the world's best parents or most skilled dinner companions. :-)

MM
10-29-2012, 10:24 AM
I would not use the term obsessive-compulsive which properly describes attention to rituals and details that don't have meaning or add to life (nobody ever got credit, much less world renown in any field, for having the cleanest hands in town or avoiding every fourth crack in the sidewalk).

However I've long held that most - not all, but most - people who actually devote their lives to something, anything, to the point that it changes the world are probably not the world's best parents or most skilled dinner companions. :-)

Hi Janet,

Obs/Comp used clinically, yes, I agree with you. I was using it more informally, sort of in an excessive fixation-type behavior. :)

MM
10-29-2012, 10:47 AM
I do know what can happen with aiki training gone wrong. It doesn't always produce a wonderful person and can lead to all manner of problems? my previous comments were to highlight that things can go wrong, they have and will again if people don't take care.


You're assuming that what I'm defining as "aiki" and what you're defining as "aiki" are the same. In my experience, that is not the case for most of the aikido done today.


There's now some 10,000,000 people practising aikido...are you Mark going to take responsibility for them? especially when you've been telling them all kind of mistruths about a country I don't believe you have spent much time in?


You've lost me here. What responsibility? What mistruths? I have no idea what you're talking about.


It may seem a bit nasty, but then do you have a fully connected body and know what it really takes to get there so can speak with any kind of authority? just interested....


Prior to training in IP/aiki, I couldn't stop any joint locks. Now, it's rare that they work on me. Prior to training IP/aiki, I had to move to capture uke's center. Now, I don't. I have 5 years with IP/aiki training and it's been off and on, not regular at all. Equivalent to 3-4 seminars a year with a teacher and the rest solo training. Do I have a connected body? Yep. Much, much more connected than anything Modern Aikido training gave. Do I know what it takes to get there. Definitely. My history in doing so speaks for itself.


All the best

Lee
p.s. I don't take kindly to having my words requoted and connected to other people I didn't address.

Perhaps you shouldn't be on Forums. :) Words are requoted all over the place. Besides, your words weren't connected to anyone else. They were quoted as reference from the other thread.

Mark

Cady Goldfield
10-29-2012, 10:59 AM
Maybe "excessively driven" would be an appropriate word to describe these men. This has a familiar ring to it, when considering excellence and success in other arenas, such as business, science, music and art. We all respect people who have "drive" and have earned their success with it. Without drive, we can all be so-so, okay, good, or even really good, but it's the ones with "super drive" who become the high bar.

Musing... It occurs to me that the Big Four all had wives, traditional Japanese wives, who tended to everything on the home front to make it possible for these men to train as they did.

What's that old saying about "Behind every successful man..."?

MM
10-29-2012, 11:29 AM
Maybe "excessively driven" would be an appropriate word to describe these men. This has a familiar ring to it, when considering excellence and success in other arenas, such as business, science, music and art. We all respect people who have "drive" and have earned their success with it. Without drive, we can all be so-so, okay, good, or even really good, but it's the ones with "super drive" who become the high bar.

Musing... It occurs to me that the Big Four all had wives, traditional Japanese wives, who tended to everything on the home front to make it possible for these men to train as they did.

What's that old saying about "Behind every successful man..."?

Hi Cady,

Yeah, excessively driven for sure. But, it's also probable (not a given) that Ueshiba could have been obs/comp about his prayers/chanting. Sagawa could have been that way about the sumo exercise. What amount did Sagawa say he did every day? 1000? I forget. But it was a large number and that seems to go beyond excessively driven to me. :)

The point though is that these men were well beyond "normal" in their behaviors in martial training, yet historically they did not show a trend to maim, abuse, or kill their students. Ueshiba was famous for flying into a rage.

But if we compare Sagawa, Ueshiba, Horikawa to all their students in regards to hurting people ... Who becomes the better role model? Those with IP/aiki or those without?

How does excessive behavior factor into it?

How does IP/aiki change such that hurting people is no longer an option?

How does IP/aiki vs muscle/jujutsu compare?

(JOKE alert. Do you know when a woman is going to say something intelligent? She starts her sentence off with, "My husband told me that ..." :D )

phitruong
10-29-2012, 11:34 AM
What's that old saying about "Behind every successful man..."?

"Behind every successful man, there is a woman
And behind every unsuccessful man, there are two. "

"The wise never marry.
and when they marry they become otherwise. "

*sorry couldn't help meself*

Marc Abrams
10-29-2012, 11:53 AM
I would not use the term obsessive-compulsive which properly describes attention to rituals and details that don't have meaning or add to life (nobody ever got credit, much less world renown in any field, for having the cleanest hands in town or avoiding every fourth crack in the sidewalk).

However I've long held that most - not all, but most - people who actually devote their lives to something, anything, to the point that it changes the world are probably not the world's best parents or most skilled dinner companions. :-)

I think that Mark is referring to obsessive-compulsive personality characteristics. THIS SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED AS THE SAME AS ( or a lesser degree of ) OBSESSIVE-COMPULSIVE DISORDER OR OBSESSIVE-COMPULSIVE PERSONALITY DISORDER.

Marc Abrams

jonreading
10-29-2012, 12:56 PM
I think it is very likely these men, particularly Ueshiba, all presented eccentric behavior compared to their contemporaries. I believe nowadays we call this "drive"; at least, that is what the announcers say about high-functioning athletes when I watch a football game...

Ueshiba excelled in martial science. Considering the amount, duration, and dedication he devoted to his study, it is likely that he prioritized his study above other functions, certainly more so than mainstream society. I think rather than wonder if they were not normal, the reverse question, "How could these guys possibly be right in the head?" is the better one.

I think we sometimes forget the sheer will power it takes to truly excel. Math, sports, writing. Whatever. Then forget about the separation between these figures and normal society. Guess what you are left with? Justin Bieber. Or, Britney Spears. Or OJ Simpson. Or John Nash. Or Issac Newton. Or Abraham Lincoln (when he wasn't killing vamps).

Call it what you will, but it is safe to say these guys were "touched in the head".

mathewjgano
10-29-2012, 01:36 PM
I think it is very likely these men, particularly Ueshiba, all presented eccentric behavior compared to their contemporaries. I believe nowadays we call this "drive"; at least, that is what the announcers say about high-functioning athletes when I watch a football game...

Ueshiba excelled in martial science. Considering the amount, duration, and dedication he devoted to his study, it is likely that he prioritized his study above other functions, certainly more so than mainstream society. I think rather than wonder if they were not normal, the reverse question, "How could these guys possibly be right in the head?" is the better one.

I think we sometimes forget the sheer will power it takes to truly excel. Math, sports, writing. Whatever. Then forget about the separation between these figures and normal society. Guess what you are left with? Justin Bieber. Or, Britney Spears. Or OJ Simpson. Or John Nash. Or Issac Newton. Or Abraham Lincoln (when he wasn't killing vamps).

Call it what you will, but it is safe to say these guys were "touched in the head".

Well put! The singular attention and effort put into "mastery" demands other aspects of a person's life will fall by the wayside to some extent. I also think there is a tendancy for self-improvement focuses to turn into egocentric behavior somewhat.

MM
10-29-2012, 01:54 PM
Well put! The singular attention and effort put into "mastery" demands other aspects of a person's life will fall by the wayside to some extent. I also think there is a tendancy for self-improvement focuses to turn into egocentric behavior somewhat.

Hi Matthew,

I don't think many will argue that Ueshiba and the others were highly driven. The question that was brought up, which is valid, is whether that drive to excel at martial mastery would corrupt and turn them selfish and egotistical.

Or, maybe, it would depend more on their nature overall, rather than on the need to excel? Take Ueshiba, for example. Did it turn him selfish and egotistical? Did it turn Sagawa that way? Now, if we look at Aikido Japanese shihan, were there any who deliberately hurt students? Did they or did they not have IP/aiki? Did they have the same drive as Ueshiba, Sagawa, Horikawa? Or is it more a funtion of a person's personality that is the basis for whether or not they would turn selfish or egotistical when driven to excel?

As an offshoot, does IP/aiki negate that selfish, egotistical nature?

Mark

oisin bourke
10-29-2012, 02:03 PM
I think what Mark was getting at (and thanks for the thought provoking comments) was that did obsessive training make these exceptional men better or worse as people? Or what would they have been like WITHOUT such a deep study in which to immerse themselves?
Through solo training, they seemed to internalize their intensely competitive drives, as opposed to externalize it (by physically crushing opponents). I donít know. None of the high level individuals strike me as being sadists, but, according to his students, Sagawa encouraged them to go out and get into fights, Ueshiba injured ukes (and possibly had blood on his hands pre-war?) in his younger days. Even Horikawa was notorious for extremely tough practice when he was younger (I have this on first-hand information plus Iíve experienced some of these techniques and training methods).

The point Iím trying to make is this obsessive mindset seemed to cut them off from their fellow humans at some level: they saw them as problems to be overcome. To their great credit, Ueshiba and Horikawa seemed to have radically changed in later age. Perhaps this might partly be attributed to the social effects of practicing calligraphy, dance and religious rites within a community? Interestingly, Sagawa didnĒt seem to put much stock in anything outside of bujutsu. Neither did Sokaku.
This change didn"t seem to happen to them.

The other question to ask of this kind of training is, what do we want Budo to be? To me (and I believe most praticioners) it is about achieving balance, both with oneself and with society, family etc. If one aspect starts to take precedence (for example the will to dominate others, the desire for fame etc), then can one be said to be a good budoka? There are no easy answers, but these are questions one must ask IMO.

oisin bourke
10-29-2012, 02:04 PM
Musing... It occurs to me that the Big Four all had wives, traditional Japanese wives, who tended to everything on the home front to make it possible for these men to train as they did.

What's that old saying about "Behind every successful man..."?

An excellent point. Also, Takuma Hisa apparently left his wife on her deathbed to attend to Sokaku.

mathewjgano
10-29-2012, 03:12 PM
Hi Matthew,

I don't think many will argue that Ueshiba and the others were highly driven. The question that was brought up, which is valid, is whether that drive to excel at martial mastery would corrupt and turn them selfish and egotistical.

Or, maybe, it would depend more on their nature overall, rather than on the need to excel? Take Ueshiba, for example. Did it turn him selfish and egotistical? Did it turn Sagawa that way? Now, if we look at Aikido Japanese shihan, were there any who deliberately hurt students? Did they or did they not have IP/aiki? Did they have the same drive as Ueshiba, Sagawa, Horikawa? Or is it more a funtion of a person's personality that is the basis for whether or not they would turn selfish or egotistical when driven to excel?

As an offshoot, does IP/aiki negate that selfish, egotistical nature?

Mark
Hi Mark,
I originally wrote a big post on my personal views, but changed my mind...
In my view there is a strong connection between high levels of drive and a tendancy toward egocentric behavior. I don't mean to suggest every highly driven person is egocentric, and I suppose it has to do with a lot of factors...namely, the way they were raised and the people they came into contact with over time.
I don't think Aikido, IP, etc. necessarily cause any of the behaviors being discussed, but I do think the nature of isolated training regimens along with the severity implied by serious study of budo (and the power which can come with them) create a space which is ripe for selfish or otherwise anti-social behavior...this is why I think techers and mentors have such a huge responsibility for tracking how their students are developing in character as well as physical skill.
Also, in my own meager experiences with "self-improvement" (which has included lots of isolated practices) I've noticed a strange kind of selfishness and egocentricity crop up from time to time. And while I think being in diverse social groups generally improves social behavior, I can see how being in a group of people doesn't necessarily curb this (we can be in a group of people and still be rather alone with ourselves), particularly for those at the top of the hierarchical pyramid who often have people defering to their will so much more readily, never mind the ways those who strive for that top location might express that desire from time to time.
The bu in budo is a highly chaotic and extreme setting so it makes sense to me that many people who study budo (particularly those who emphasise the bu/"combat" readiness) will have some "interesting" traits develop. In my original post I spoke of my being a small kid who contemplated what I would need to protect my family and friends and it essentially meant developing a willingness for occasionally ruthless behavior. Simply contemplating this idea has meant that while I abhor harming any living thing, I was shifting my attitude in another direction. I don't think it would be very hard for people to develop a harsh mentality from looking long into the proverbial abyss, regardless of the internal/external nature of their art.
Per my extremely low level of understanding, I would guess IP/aiki doesn't necessarily negate this kind of thing. However, I have noticed that when i feel physically good (e.g. having what seems like a more balanced ki), I am a much nicer person who is less fearful and thus more open to the thoughts and actions of those around me...but I think a lot of my own experiences in this regard have their roots in how I was raised. Mom was a hippie so "love everyone like they were family" is pretty deeply established; maybe a different childhood would produce different results.
Sorry if any of this post seems a bit scattered; I'm feeling a bit out of it today.
Take care!
Matt

DH
10-29-2012, 05:18 PM
How much are people simply just qualifying unusual skills to otherwise strange personality disorders?

Takeda had a terrible time as a child and without budo would have been most likely just as mean or weird (as most like to characterize him post mortem).
Ueshiba, without his DR training would have been yet another quasi religious guy with no power (no one else we know of go any power from his practices)
Sagawa was more than likely just a spoiled rich kid who would have worked out his foibles in some other fashion.
What about the fact that they did grow up in a more challenging culture and time?

What about the loooveelly Aikido shihan we were delivered who were womenizers, drunks, cocaine addicts, and rather awful people...with mediocre skills?

What about the sweet hearts and deeply caring shihans that came over

What about thousands of ICMA Master class guys who were fine individuals?
I think this is all convenient quibbling and just might smack of qualifying NOT putting in the work. I'm not saying that...I am wandering though.
Dan

wxyzabc
10-29-2012, 06:25 PM
Mark speaks :

"You're assuming that what I'm defining as "aiki" and what you're defining as "aiki" are the same. In my experience, that is not the case for most of the aikido done today"

No I'm not ...not at all

"You've lost me here. What responsibility? What mistruths? I have no idea what you're talking about."

You've been saying, and quite forcibly I might add, that since the days of old...that NO ONE in modern aikido has real aikido or reached the level of some previous well known teachers. This clearly shows your ignorance and may I say it, slight conceit...that maybe Mark knows better. Sadly he doesn't. How much time have you spent in japan Mark? go on now be truthful

Now with clearly limited understanding and ability yourself you feel it ok to stand before the aikido world and say that they should listen to you and there are no risks to what you advocate? is this so Mark? several thousand posts versus my 135 ish would seem so imho

"Prior to training in IP/aiki, I couldn't stop any joint locks. Now, it's rare that they work on me. Prior to training IP/aiki, I had to move to capture uke's center. Now, I don't. I have 5 years with IP/aiki training and it's been off and on, not regular at all. Equivalent to 3-4 seminars a year with a teacher and the rest solo training. Do I have a connected body? Yep. Much, much more connected than anything Modern Aikido training gave. Do I know what it takes to get there. Definitely. My history in doing so speaks for itself."

So you started something but haven't got so far and basically show your own level with this..which to be fair to others isn't anywhere near where other people have gotten too. And now you want to basically start a flaming of others, their life and background as though you have some real understanding. What gets me Mark is that in every way there is nothing original from you is there really? everything is another persons work and "understanding" that you have replicated and spread forth with very little care at times. We all know about Chinese whispers.

"Perhaps you shouldn't be on Forums. :) Words are requoted all over the place. Besides, your words weren't connected to anyone else. They were quoted as reference from the other thread"

You quoted me in a way that seems to connect my comments to others that show disrespect imho. Which makes me question why others should show any respect to you in all honesty.
You'd do better to do your own thing, see where it takes you and stop the propoganda...America isn't the only country in the world..and there are a few here that wouldn't care to see what you've been writing..trust me ^^
Mark[/QUOTE]

wxyzabc
10-29-2012, 06:40 PM
Further to that you don't have to requote me or comment..I have better things to do than reply ;)

All the best

Lee
p.s. I'm serious...my life is more than belittling others and spending hours on here quibbling like children....all the best now..have a good day :)

MM
10-29-2012, 08:21 PM
Mark speaks :

"You're assuming that what I'm defining as "aiki" and what you're defining as "aiki" are the same. In my experience, that is not the case for most of the aikido done today"

No I'm not ...not at all

"You've lost me here. What responsibility? What mistruths? I have no idea what you're talking about."

You've been saying, and quite forcibly I might add, that since the days of old...that NO ONE in modern aikido has real aikido or reached the level of some previous well known teachers. This clearly shows your ignorance and may I say it, slight conceit...that maybe Mark knows better. Sadly he doesn't. How much time have you spent in japan Mark? go on now be truthful

Now with clearly limited understanding and ability yourself you feel it ok to stand before the aikido world and say that they should listen to you and there are no risks to what you advocate? is this so Mark? several thousand posts versus my 135 ish would seem so imho

"Prior to training in IP/aiki, I couldn't stop any joint locks. Now, it's rare that they work on me. Prior to training IP/aiki, I had to move to capture uke's center. Now, I don't. I have 5 years with IP/aiki training and it's been off and on, not regular at all. Equivalent to 3-4 seminars a year with a teacher and the rest solo training. Do I have a connected body? Yep. Much, much more connected than anything Modern Aikido training gave. Do I know what it takes to get there. Definitely. My history in doing so speaks for itself."

So you started something but haven't got so far and basically show your own level with this..which to be fair to others isn't anywhere near where other people have gotten too. And now you want to basically start a flaming of others, their life and background as though you have some real understanding. What gets me Mark is that in every way there is nothing original from you is there really? everything is another persons work and "understanding" that you have replicated and spread forth with very little care at times. We all know about Chinese whispers.

"Perhaps you shouldn't be on Forums. :) Words are requoted all over the place. Besides, your words weren't connected to anyone else. They were quoted as reference from the other thread"

You quoted me in a way that seems to connect my comments to others that show disrespect imho. Which makes me question why others should show any respect to you in all honesty.
You'd do better to do your own thing, see where it takes you and stop the propoganda...America isn't the only country in the world..and there are a few here that wouldn't care to see what you've been writing..trust me ^^
Mark

As I said before, when people don't have the research, understanding, or experience to debate or talk about the actual subject matter, they delve into personalities, word play, format changes, etc.

Guess you haven't done the research or you'd find that in my thousands of posts, the utmost respect for some of the aikido teachers out there ... But you know what, you've bowed out of the thread. Let's leave it at that.

Mark

wxyzabc
10-29-2012, 10:53 PM
Well Mark I'll bow back in to say you're very wrong....further you don't seem to have given careful consideration to why only a few were ever fully advised beyond the usual. You're constant voicing to people you don't know shows that to be true unfortunately.

I have nothing against you personally Mark but I have concern for how you and a few others conduct yourself (and also the reasons why). Those with knowledge and experience generally remain quiet and don't endanger others without really knowing what they are doing.

There are high level skills outside of Asia too...but again they also stay quiet. Who is wise? you or them? hence thats why I say in the end you are taking on more responsibility than you should in many areas. Notice I haven't advised people to alter their physical make up or anything other than to take care and do what is sufficient and safe..I know some of the dangers you see.

Other intelligent people with skills have also said what is sufficient within aikido (to understand how to do taiso correctly for one)...but for some it's not enough...and that's it really..where does it end?

Now lets not have this turn into anything more....I'd just be careful what you say in a public domain. I've said a few things to show that generally people don't really have a clue what can happen...and that's a fair comment.

In the end you can show respect to the teachers...but you also have to have to show respect to everyone and protect if you can...and while you think you are...maybe you aren't.

Kindest regards

Lee

Cady Goldfield
10-30-2012, 12:12 AM
Hi Cady,

Yeah, excessively driven for sure. But, it's also probable (not a given) that Ueshiba could have been obs/comp about his prayers/chanting. Sagawa could have been that way about the sumo exercise. What amount did Sagawa say he did every day? 1000? I forget. But it was a large number and that seems to go beyond excessively driven to me. :)

The point though is that these men were well beyond "normal" in their behaviors in martial training, yet historically they did not show a trend to maim, abuse, or kill their students. Ueshiba was famous for flying into a rage.

But if we compare Sagawa, Ueshiba, Horikawa to all their students in regards to hurting people ... Who becomes the better role model? Those with IP/aiki or those without?

How does excessive behavior factor into it?

How does IP/aiki change such that hurting people is no longer an option?

How does IP/aiki vs muscle/jujutsu compare?

(JOKE alert. Do you know when a woman is going to say something intelligent? She starts her sentence off with, "My husband told me that ..." :D )

Having aiki/IP is no guarantee of being a superior role model -- that someone won't hurt others, especially if a person does not yet recognize the extent of his power and doesn't know how to tone it down. Aiki is a tool, like anything else, that one must learn to use properly and to control... really, to control oneself.

Maybe consider what Uncle Ben told Peter Parker: "With great power comes great responsibility." ;) Sagawa, Horikawa and Ueshiba were men who knew their power; they knew how to get the results they wanted to demonstrate -- complete balance and control of the opposing forces within themselves... externally demonstrated in the utter and absolute control of uke -- without having to do overkill, and on top of that they presumably already had enough ethical fiber to not abuse their power. They were not sociopaths, just men who were obsessed with aiki (understandable!) and pursued it as an artrist pursues his vision and is never, ever satisfied with his results.

Conversely, the many of their students, including aikido shihan who felt and observed what Ueshiba could do, but couldn't duplicate it - not for lack of trying - may have vented frustration or lack of confidence at their inabilities, or attempted to mimic what they saw and could not understand, by cranking and over-forcing their waza to make it work under resistance, hurting their ukes. Without aiki to power their waza, what else could they do? Maybe most did the best they could with what they had. They were and are good people, highly respected and much loved, and considered great teachers. I'm not sure how having aiki/IP or not would necessarily correlate to being a better or worse role model in this respect.

As for "beyond normal" behavior in Sagawa's, Horikawa's and Ueshiba's training, how did what they did for their personal training regimens differ from the self-centered, introverted, disciplined focus of, say, a virtuoso violinist? If you want to excel, then driven training, perhaps to the exclusion of many other aspects of life most of us would consider important, is the prescribed course. The main difference, is that the violinist can redeem himself for his selfish behavior by playing achingly beautiful music in public concerts. By contrast, an accomplished martial artist will oblige you by throwing you through a wall. But would you pay $50 for a ticket for that? :p

wxyzabc
10-30-2012, 04:45 AM
I'm probably spending too much time on here, but in a way I'm really enjoying writing and using some English (can be rare to get that opportunity here) ^^.

In public forums everyone can and often does have an opinion. However perhaps we have to be careful not to wander into the area of conjecture...especially when talking about a culture and people that few have any real understanding of now, never mind in the past.

It may appear I'm a great defender of the Japanese but in reality I just have a balanced view. It must be said that if anyone has to go and live, often alone in another culture and start a new life then things aren't always going to be easy...I know I did it here and I've had a very tough time at the hands of some nationalistic types yet many have been really kind to me. It's very easy to get stressed and have all kinds of miscommunication and misunderstandings. If they've done wrong and for sure not every country is happy with how the Japanese have conducted themselves then sure it's understandable people have got upset.....but in aikido you've often got only one guy from a country of millions..so be fair.

If I was Japanese and had to go to America to teach aikido I don't know what I would have done..going from skinny/wiry built people to often big, muscle bound ones..I guess it's easy to have said.."well it's not going to be easy for them to do aikido well"..lol. Japanese have a clear advantage from the start and do better much quicker...with the right instruction/teacher of course. People often just don't get this simple fact at all..

The problems that lie with IP/IS can of course be how it's used...you know a few years back I came across one guy who thought it fantastic to really put people into the mat to show he understood something they didn't etc...quite sickening behaviour to be honest especially as uke were there to basically have a fun, nice time. I thought then yep this could go very wrong and more akin to devilution than evolution....very different to how skilled people here operate.

But over and above that people can become very sick in many ways.....I will reiterate this...don't think you've got a golden pill or ticket to success there because you haven't. It's also easy to think them Asians must be dumb and don't understand anything because they such silly things..but again I can assure you they're not and what is said by them can be very real. Their culture is far older than most...and they've wisely learnt to deal with what they have. I'm going to go do some work...try and teach them English...that's not easy either..lol ^^

All the best
Lee

jonreading
10-30-2012, 12:16 PM
I was maybe too vague. The points I was addressing are:
1. Of the men discussed, each were considered by many to excel- present a skill beyond the normal range of ability. As with many other excellent people, the presentation of behavior (if not diagnosis) consistent with mental disorder is not uncommon. My point is to illustrate that the "drive" necessary to accomplish excellence is often extreme (beyond the range of "normal" people).
2. The subjective (and opined) definitions of "corrupt", "selfish", or "good" require a perspective. For example, why is "selfish" negatively used? My point is to illustrate that commitment requires prioritization, often egocentrically.

Cady brings this up referencing a violinist, but the example works in about every other profession. If I spoke about the lifer academic, the professional athlete, or the movie star we would would say "that person deserves the MVP, or an Oscar, or the Nobel prize". But for martial artists... They crazy and bad.

As for the tangental point that these men all possessed an internal power which may also created some negative effect... They all wore pants too. Maybe the pants were evil. Aikido does not a saint make.

DH
10-30-2012, 12:31 PM
And to be clear again:
My point is that all of the qualifiers; to one degree or another implies that
1. Either they were weird driven men, who's strange personalities aided some sort of twisted focus in order to acquire their skills.
2. Or they were nice young chaps, who's purusit of these skills made them acquire weird and strange personalities.
Tr
No where, any where do we see mention that maybe these skills-provide neither of the above, and have also produced wonderful balanced people.
No where any where do we see mention of the people who have these skills to what ever degree, not fitting a profile of weird strange people, but rather are professional business people with familes and friends, who are warm and caring people.

I would be so bold to point out that no one..who actually has something approaching these skills, would agree with this idea that you must be crazy to attain them.

When reading your post Jon, it leaves one with the impression that ....of course they would have to be "not normal"...because, well, after all normal people don't have the skills!:freaky:

I will stand on a prediction; Within ten years, lets review this thread. People are going to have to explain how thousands of normal people ended up with these skills-to one degree or another.
It is this work, the true nature of it...that has created budo giants for eons...and the vast majority of budo people simply didn't have access to it or refused to do the work. And that was all it was.
Dan

Conrad Gus
10-30-2012, 12:42 PM
Mark started the thread, and is assuming the IP/IS "worldview" as a premise:


IP/IS is fundamental and necessary to truly effective budo.
Certain historical "greats" had it.
They didn't or couldn't successfully pass it on.
Almost all current-day aikido is missing it.
It is in the process of making a resurgence in certain circles.


Whether you agree or don't (I don't), OP holds this worldview and is framing the discussion within it. I think that arguing against this is worldview off topic for this thread.

It's actually an interesting discussion to read. Personally, I would rather see it continue than have it get pulled into a "worldview" debate.

To add my two cents to the actual topic, I think you can find unpleasant, hurtful, or self-centered people within any group of humans anywhere (martial arts teachers who are abusive), and aikido is no exception. I would be willing to wager that there have been people in history with IP/IS abilities that exhibited similar negative qualities.

Cherry picking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_(fallacy)) examples doesn't prove anything about the group they belong to or the practices they do or do not follow. Also, anything these three "greats" have in common might just be a coincidence and have nothing to do with their training practices.

Cheers,

Conrad

Cliff Judge
10-30-2012, 12:51 PM
Each of the aiki greats had a few things in common: obsessive/compulsive, stubborn behavior all directed towards training for strength (martial, not physical) and power.


You really think that captures what these guys were doing with their lives? Obsessive-compulsive, consuming drive towards training for "martial strength" and power?

Is that why Ueshiba went to Mongolia to help found a utopia? Because he thought it was a path to internal power?

I think in Ueshiba's case, "martial power" was a trivial, childish goal as he got older. His training was aimed at becoming a conduit of the kami, and to that end his aim was to be able to attain a state of open awareness and a totally uncritical non-consciousness.

As to why some Aikido teachers have reputations as brutes, two words: Imperial Army.

Cliff Judge
10-30-2012, 01:03 PM
Mark started the thread, and is assuming the IP/IS "worldview" as a premise:


IP/IS is fundamental and necessary to truly effective budo.
Certain historical "greats" had it.
They didn't or couldn't successfully pass it on.
Almost all current-day aikido is missing it.
It is in the process of making a resurgence in certain circles.


Whether you agree or don't (I don't), OP holds this worldview and is framing the discussion within it. I think that arguing against this is worldview off topic for this thread.


If someone has a proposition they want to prove, for example, that lots of solo training for aiki-pee leads one to be a kinder, gentler type of antisocial crazy person, then this person would lay out their assumptions and show how they lead to his conclusion.

It is then part of the normal process of logical discourse to examine the premises of the argument and argue for or against them.

Part of that involves challenging the unstated assumptions, such as come with a "worldview." Subjective experiences that are fervently believed to be objective fact are fair game.

MM
10-30-2012, 02:06 PM
Mark started the thread, and is assuming the IP/IS "worldview" as a premise:


1. IP/IS is fundamental and necessary to truly effective budo.
2. Certain historical "greats" had it.
3. They didn't or couldn't successfully pass it on.
4. Almost all current-day aikido is missing it.
5. It is in the process of making a resurgence in certain circles.

Cheers,
Conrad

I added the numbers. Let me address them first.
1. Not what I believe. You can have effective budo without IP/IS. As Ueshiba stated about religion, IP/IS makes it better. But, just because you have IP/IS doesn't mean you are necessarily great at budo. It all takes training.

2. Yes.

3. Not what I believe. I think they could pass it on. I think that between Takeda making them keep it a secret and the Japanese manner in which they chose to pass it on contributed to it becoming very rare and almost extinct.

4. Yes. A majority. I'm certain that some people in aikido have parts and pieces to some degree or another, though.

5. Yes.

Now, that out of the way, my point about this thread is this:

The aiki greats had to have devoted a great amount of time (solo, paired, etc) to training in some manner. Sagawa pretty much outright states it. I think this bordered on being driven. I know someone else who has been described as a training fiend. :D

Compare and contrast the top aiki greats with all others and you find that just because these aiki greats were driven, it didn't mean that they were necessarily bad people. There were others who broke more students than them. Sort of boils down to personalities in a different area than where being driven comes from.

For example, some top athletes are nice while other top athletes are cruel and obnoxious. Both sets are driven to becoming top athletes. Having this obs/comp/driven/whatever behavior to become powerful and budo strong doesn't equate to being a nice or not nice individual.

Separate from that is whether or not IP/aiki changed their personalities in the area of nice/not-nice, but that's another thread topic.

Mark

DH
10-30-2012, 02:09 PM
You really think that captures what these guys were doing with their lives? Obsessive-compulsive, consuming drive towards training for "martial strength" and power?

Is that why Ueshiba went to Mongolia to help found a utopia? Because he thought it was a path to internal power?

I think in Ueshiba's case, "martial power" was a trivial, childish goal as he got older. His training was aimed at becoming a conduit of the kami, and to that end his aim was to be able to attain a state of open awareness and a totally uncritical non-consciousness.
Really?
Is that why he personally chose to represent this "conduit of kami" in budo environments like the kodokan as men said "Hey try to throw this old man" and he tossed people and knocked them out, and he trained stabbing trees with a spear, and did endless "power displays" with his people?
This guy was a budo guy through and through. His prayer life and other things were his...OTHER..interests.
a. I contend they did not produce one iota of power
b. No one, anywhere has ever shown anyone who trained these religious methods and only trained those methods, who had any power. All present aikido spiritual people included.

As to why some Aikido teachers have reputations as brutes, two words: Imperial Army.
I disagree with this well. War has always been a way for whackos to practice their insanity. Recruiters know this and most responsible military organizations try to catch them and weed them out. People get messed up in a lot of ways. Trying to blame others when sourcing the reason for peoples behavior can be difficult.
Dan

Cliff Judge
10-30-2012, 02:15 PM
No, really, there was a culture of abuse in the Imperial Army.

DH
10-30-2012, 02:44 PM
No, really, there was a culture of abuse in the Imperial Army.
Yes, but when talking about individuals; which came first?
There is a reason to look at Draegers work (hoplology) on various countries behaviors in war. What might be in their cultural norms that would allow certain acts, that would not be in others.

To remain on point, I think that there is no evidence to link the training in internal power to someones behavior. And no three people should be any example of a norm. Nor is there enough evidence to make any causal link to their prior behavior being a causal factor to attain power either. Again, I wonder that this is simply an excuse for those who do not possess any unusual power to explain why they don't; those that had it were unusual, talented, great men, or weird bizarre people who had the time. To me all of this simply avoids the fact that it just wasn't widely taught (hence -they- simply don't know) or when it was taught not all put in the work required.

And yes, I submit that;
a. It was their internal training that made them exceptional. Their spiritual pursuits did nothing to aid in their budo power
b. it can be taught and normal people can become exceptional.
Dan

jonreading
10-30-2012, 03:17 PM
And to be clear again:
My point is that all of the qualifiers; to one degree or another implies that
1. Either they were weird driven men, who's strange personalities aided some sort of twisted focus in order to acquire their skills.
2. Or they were nice young chaps, who's purusit of these skills made them acquire weird and strange personalities.
Tr
No where, any where do we see mention that maybe these skills-provide neither of the above, and have also produced wonderful balanced people.
No where any where do we see mention of the people who have these skills to what ever degree, not fitting a profile of weird strange people, but rather are professional business people with familes and friends, who are warm and caring people.

I would be so bold to point out that no one..who actually has something approaching these skills, would agree with this idea that you must be crazy to attain them.

When reading your post Jon, it leaves one with the impression that ....of course they would have to be "not normal"...because, well, after all normal people don't have the skills!:freaky:

I will stand on a prediction; Within ten years, lets review this thread. People are going to have to explain how thousands of normal people ended up with these skills-to one degree or another.
It is this work, the true nature of it...that has created budo giants for eons...and the vast majority of budo people simply didn't have access to it or refused to do the work. And that was all it was.
Dan

What do we call people who play chess in their spare time? Nerds. Play on a computer? Geeks. Play sports? Jocks. You don not have to be crazy to devote time to a hobby... But when that commitment falls under scrutiny by mainstream society...

Honestly, I am not considering the "what" of what comprised the time they dedicated to training. I am simply outlining the prioritization of time as to allow their training to dominate their life. And, as several of my friends point out my past time of getting thrown around, I must be crazy to do aikido. We tend to forget we already are out of the mainstream just by training in a martial art. Then add maybe more time on the mat than with your kids, maybe your job is teaching aikido, maybe you are single, or maybe you aren't single (ouch) - I would be served divorce papers. But people make these decisions. You don't gotta be crazy, but we sometimes forget that most people think exactly that when they judge our decisions.

Secondly, I am implying that proficiency is correlated to practice. Those who [correctly] practice more will tend to be more proficient than those who do not. I am not arguing the dissemination of any particular knowledge. Again, I am not trying to get into a quality because I think you can balance proficiency with time commitment.

However, I think wading into the "what" of what these guys were doing with there time would be very interesting. I also think a discussion about the realistic time table of disseminating aiki as it relates to understanding the necessary time commitment to become proficient would be interesting.

Thanks for allowing me to clarify.

Conrad Gus
10-30-2012, 03:24 PM
For example, some top athletes are nice while other top athletes are cruel and obnoxious. Both sets are driven to becoming top athletes. Having this obs/comp/driven/whatever behavior to become powerful and budo strong doesn't equate to being a nice or not nice individual.

Separate from that is whether or not IP/aiki changed their personalities in the area of nice/not-nice, but that's another thread topic.
Mark

I agree with you on both points.

Also, thanks for the "numbers" clarification. Every time I try to re-iterate this "worldview" back I get better clarifications from people like yourself. Not the topic for this thread though, so I won't get into it here.

Conrad

Cliff Judge
10-30-2012, 04:19 PM
a. It was their internal training that made them exceptional. Their spiritual pursuits did nothing to aid in their budo power


Well I submit that Ueshiba, at least, did not see any difference between his internal training and his spiritual pursuits, they were one and the same to him. This raises the question as to whether or not Takeda, Kodo, or Sagawa thought of the goals of their solo internal training in terms that we relate to if we reduce the practice to a means to "martial power." I don't think so but there is not enough data there.

With Ueshiba, though, it's pretty clear, isn't it? "Spiritual pursuits" were what he obsessively spent the last couple decades of his life doing. Or have we all analyzed the text and realized that when it seemed like he was talking about fixing the universe he really just wanted to be able to hold a stick better?

Chris Li
10-30-2012, 04:42 PM
Well I submit that Ueshiba, at least, did not see any difference between his internal training and his spiritual pursuits, they were one and the same to him. This raises the question as to whether or not Takeda, Kodo, or Sagawa thought of the goals of their solo internal training in terms that we relate to if we reduce the practice to a means to "martial power." I don't think so but there is not enough data there.

With Ueshiba, though, it's pretty clear, isn't it? "Spiritual pursuits" were what he obsessively spent the last couple decades of his life doing. Or have we all analyzed the text and realized that when it seemed like he was talking about fixing the universe he really just wanted to be able to hold a stick better?

Nobody, except the people not actually involved in the training, has said that internals are all about reducing things to a simple physical practice.

Actually, Ueshiba's view of the unification of his internal training and his spiritual pursuits makes perfect sense to me - you see similar views throughout the history of internal training all the way back to China.

FWIW, I don't really see how you get to the spiritual training at all, practically speaking, without the internals. This blog post (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-03-11/aiki-budo-is-the-way-of-human-development) may be relevant here.

Best,

Chris

mathewjgano
10-30-2012, 04:49 PM
When reading your post Jon, it leaves one with the impression that ....of course they would have to be "not normal"...because, well, after all normal people don't have the skills!:freaky:

I didn't get that impression, but more to the point, I hope I didn't give that impression too.

What do we call people who play chess in their spare time? Nerds.
Speaking as a former King Nerd when I was in high school, those chess playing cats aren't generally very normal...and that's part of why I liked them so much.
I don't think "normal" is the issue so much as what causes anti-social behavior.

While it's certainly conjecture, I think there's a validity to the idea that a person like Sokaku Takeda, who experienced some of the most base aspects of humanity from an early age, benefitted greatly from his discipline...even if it was a discipline which fostered considerable personal power.
Anyhow, before I muck up any more threads with distracted thoughts...off to tend to my hungry boys.
Take care, all, and thank you for the great food for thought!
Matt

Cliff Judge
10-30-2012, 04:55 PM
Nobody, except the people not actually involved in the training, has said that internals are all about reducing things to a simple physical practice.

Dan very clearly bifurcated Ueshiba's pursuits between budo and spiritual stuff, and stated that the spiritual stuff is useless to the attainment of the IS/IP/Aiki/Glow. I think that misses the point in a similar manner to Mark Murray's original post which characterizes Ueshiba, Kodo, Takeda, and Sagawa together as men who trained assiduously for "martial power" to the exclusion of many other things.

chillzATL
10-30-2012, 06:05 PM
IMO Ueshiba was simply a man who found something he loved and had the means to make a career out of it. You don't have to be crazy to be good.

Chris Li
10-30-2012, 06:25 PM
Dan very clearly bifurcated Ueshiba's pursuits between budo and spiritual stuff, and stated that the spiritual stuff is useless to the attainment of the IS/IP/Aiki/Glow. I think that misses the point in a similar manner to Mark Murray's original post which characterizes Ueshiba, Kodo, Takeda, and Sagawa together as men who trained assiduously for "martial power" to the exclusion of many other things.

I think that you'd need to speak to Dan again about that. :)

In any case, that those folks trained for "martial power" to the exclusion of many other things is hard to dispute. Are you really arguing that this was not the case?

I'd agree that "the spiritual stuff is useless to the attainment of the IS/IP/Aiki/Glow" - that doesn't mean that things don't go the other way.

The engine of internal training, if you understand what we're doing, is also the engine that connects and powers all of the other stuff.

It's not a new model, and it didn't originate with Ueshiba.

Best,

Chris

Cady Goldfield
10-30-2012, 06:47 PM
Jon,
I actually don't mean "selfish" to be a negative. It's simply a fact, that to be the top level in any discipline, to be head and shoulders above the rest, an individual most be very self focused and disciplined.

People are who they are, and those who are born with a prediliction for this personality trait will express it in whatever discipline they come into that "speaks" to them. What discipline "speaks" to them, may be heavily influenced by nurture as well as nature,. So, someone who grew up in violent surroundings, such as Takeda, might be drawn to MA/fighty related disciplines, while another who grew up in an academic or musical household might become a scientist, scholar, musician or artist. But the trait for drive is inborn, I believe. Other aspects of personality, such as being "nice" or "unpleasant" are just that -- other aspects or traits. They have nothing to do with the trait of being driven.

I will say again, too, that IME and IMO, aiki/IP are a tool, nothing more and nothing less. They're not some kind of Kryptonite or magical Horcrux that warp all who touch it. But who you are can influence how you use and express it.

wxyzabc
10-30-2012, 07:44 PM
I will also make a prediction that in ten years those "doing the work" will not have achieved Ueshiba's level...and between then and now many are going to have problems. It's just the nature of the beast.

Go ahead and build a different body and you have no control over some things at all...those that claim to have studied deeply should know better or at least be a little worried...or haven't you been really listening to what was said by those that went before.... ;)

You can end up in a right mess and many have...all to feed someone's ego (maybe even you're own) and follow the dream of being a Budo giant...lol...you people have no idea.

It should be noted that out of 10,000,000 people doing aikido only 1000 has met Mr Harden. I would be asking for some kind of insurance and how he will support even the few people he personally knows if things go wrong....

It should also be noted that most enlightened people don't do MA do they? they don't kick or punch anyone? so what have you got? you don't have aikido for sure....

All the best

Lee

stan baker
10-30-2012, 08:32 PM
Hi Lee
Aikido and enlightenment what are you talking about
Like I said before you should get out more.

stan

wxyzabc
10-30-2012, 09:45 PM
Hya Stan...do you know me? ;)

All the best

Lee

gregstec
10-30-2012, 10:06 PM
10,000,000 people doing Aikido? where does that number come from ?

Greg

stan baker
10-30-2012, 10:56 PM
Hi Lee
I am just responding to what
you are saying

MM
10-31-2012, 06:10 AM
I will also make a prediction that in ten years those "doing the work" will not have achieved Ueshiba's level...and between then and now many are going to have problems. It's just the nature of the beast.

Go ahead and build a different body and you have no control over some things at all...those that claim to have studied deeply should know better or at least be a little worried...or haven't you been really listening to what was said by those that went before.... ;)

You can end up in a right mess and many have...all to feed someone's ego (maybe even you're own) and follow the dream of being a Budo giant...lol...you people have no idea.

It should be noted that out of 10,000,000 people doing aikido only 1000 has met Mr Harden. I would be asking for some kind of insurance and how he will support even the few people he personally knows if things go wrong....

It should also be noted that most enlightened people don't do MA do they? they don't kick or punch anyone? so what have you got? you don't have aikido for sure....

All the best

Lee

If you want to build a conversation around your topic, please start a new thread. It's the polite thing to do.

If you believe there are mental/spiritual/psychological issues that can be detrimental to IP/aiki training, please open a new thread. I'm sure people will want to know if there are damaging effects to this training. Of course, providing the training exercises in detail with the abnormal effects from them would be required. My guess was that what we detail out as aiki was different from yours, but you seemed to not think so. So, we'll want to see your detailed view of things to compare it to ours to make sure we're talking about the same training.

On the research end of things, please provide in your new thread, the quotes, articles, interviews, and misc material to support your theory, if we are not "really listening to what was said by those that went before". We have done our due diligence in that regard. Please show us yours in this new thread. It would be nice to understand why Ueshiba stated so vehemently that he was a man of budo, and not one of religion. Being a man of budo and being so outstanding in this area, he was a budo giant. I'm sure people would like to see the relevent research that shows how Ueshiba's dreams to become a man of budo were really not that at all.

As for enlightenment, please view the relevant threads here on Aikiweb that people have started regarding aikido leading to enlightenment. Then, in your new thread, please explain how these people are wrong in their views.

Finally, in your new thread, please detail out why Ueshiba was showing atemi on film if there is no punching in aikido, as you suggest?

Overall, though, please start a new thread. Other people have posted that they seem to find some interest in the subject of this thread and I'd rather not derail that for them.

Thanks,
Mark

wxyzabc
10-31-2012, 06:55 AM
Hya Mark

On first glance those would appear to be reasonable requests...however in reality they are not and no I won't give you information concerning much of that. While you seem to think it reasonable to carelessly spread forth your limited information.... I don't. Again I would say it's highly irresponsible when anyone and everyone can read what you advocate....you've made a lot of mistakes already with your understanding of Japan and aikido...what other mistakes are you going to make? I pm'd you about this a while back...egotistically but friendly imho you chose to ignore and felt you were doing or knew something different....mmm...perhaps you are..but maybe you're not.

You don't seem to understand do you? in reality you are just another student my friend...and you don't have a true understanding of a lot of things. We're all just learning...trying to move forward in the best way we know..I understand that. Let it suffice to say that whilst in the morning light everything seems wonderful and rosy... as you progress through the day you can easily find yourself in the darkness. Do you really have a light?

Make of that what you will...or go and consider/study properly....seems you've read quite a lot but in wanting to promote yourself and other things, have given very little consideration to anything you're doing....it's not unusal...you got a bit excited there didn't you : )

wxyzabc
10-31-2012, 06:56 AM
I will add something though...while Ueshiba may have been very focussed in certain areas we have no information that his vision for aikido is what you think. Let's think about that...at what point did he speak to the westerners on mass and say...you guys should do what Mark etal says?

When finding his students trying to make things work in real life he stopped them saying basically he spent his whole life doing that so they didn't have to.....were those kind words of protection I wonder.....did you?

And so you see while not a definitive answer by any means you think he wanted you to be the same as him...whilst you don't have any idea what he really went through. And if you don't know how can you say that you are doing his aikido and others should too?.

Now if you start to think a bit more you will see that you generally point to only 3 or more people really with power out of a nation of how many?. So is it a safe thing for the masses to have?....I guess at your stage you don't really know. I've stated you can get very sick...this stuff can mess you up big time...

Practises have to be followed correctly and imho its essential to be be led by someone with true understanding that's been passed down for a long time...do you have that? do others?....even simple things can mess up a person when done wrongly. You're spouting to lots of people who you don't know who can then easily go and get things very wrong...hence I say you are irresponsible.

I have little more to say.

All the best

Lee

MM
10-31-2012, 09:03 AM
Hya Mark

On first glance those would appear to be reasonable requests...however in reality they are not and no I won't give you information concerning much of that. While you seem to think it reasonable to carelessly spread forth your limited information.... I don't. Again I would say it's highly irresponsible when anyone and everyone can read what you advocate....you've made a lot of mistakes already with your understanding of Japan and aikido...what other mistakes are you going to make? I pm'd you about this a while back...egotistically but friendly imho you chose to ignore and felt you were doing or knew something different....mmm...perhaps you are..but maybe you're not.

You don't seem to understand do you? in reality you are just another student my friend...and you don't have a true understanding of a lot of things. We're all just learning...trying to move forward in the best way we know..I understand that. Let it suffice to say that whilst in the morning light everything seems wonderful and rosy... as you progress through the day you can easily find yourself in the darkness. Do you really have a light?

Make of that what you will...or go and consider/study properly....seems you've read quite a lot but in wanting to promote yourself and other things, have given very little consideration to anything you're doing....it's not unusal...you got a bit excited there didn't you : )

Please open a new thread. Please provide some sort of support, research, experience to show that you actually know what you're stating. Otherwise, it's just a nameless, faceless, unknown person on some computer trying to appear as some sort of authority on a subject. Anyone can say "you've made a lot of mistakes". Hard to take any advice, even good, seriously when it's from the unknown. That's the downside to the Internet. At least, I've personally found that to be the case.

So, please open a new thread and detail out your understanding of the subject matter. If there are inherent dangers in the system, it would be good for people to know.

Off topic, personally, I think you assume way too much about me. You have absolutely, and I mean absolutely, no idea what experiences I have had nor do you know all of the training (in aikido and outside of aikido) I have had nor do you have any clue as to the understandings I have of the world (physical, spiritual) and how it works. Now, I have not stated you are categorically wrong, nor that what you are doing is harmful, nor stated you don't understand what you are doing, nor stated that you're promoting your own idea of training. Instead, I have asked you to provide sound experiences, reasoning, research, etc to help bolster your ideas. To do so in a new thread. And I have done so nicely.

Please start a new thread.

Thank you,
Mark

Cliff Judge
10-31-2012, 09:22 AM
I think that you'd need to speak to Dan again about that. :)

I was, in fact, before you responded on his behalf.


In any case, that those folks trained for "martial power" to the exclusion of many other things is hard to dispute. Are you really arguing that this was not the case?

I am arguing for the possibility that this is a very myopic view of what these men were after, in the case of Kodo, Sagawa, and Takeda, about which we know comparatively little.

That Taichi guy...who didn't build a house for his family because it would cut into his training time...that's a powerful cautionary image but I don't think it is the proper cookie cutter for the four aiki greats we are discussing.

In the case of Ueshiba, "martial power" was clearly a trivial matter to him in his latter decades. His focus was spiritual. And going back further, what is your explanation for the whole Omoto involvement? Why go to Mongolia? Why get involved in politics? The huge investment in personal time and energy he put into these things, at the expense of training his internal power, really indicates that the martial power aspect was a minor piece of the puzzle.

I would go so far as to say that a solo training / internal power training method cognate to what Ueshiba was doing, followed simply for the benefit of pushing oneself off of walls and avoiding joint-locks and such, is a far more degenerate version of what Ueshiba was doing than Aikikai Aikido.

DH
10-31-2012, 09:58 AM
I am arguing for the possibility that this is a very myopic view of what these men were after, in the case of Kodo, Sagawa, and Takeda, about which we know comparatively little.

That Taichi guy...who didn't build a house for his family because it would cut into his training time...that's a powerful cautionary image but I don't think it is the proper cookie cutter for the four aiki greats we are discussing.

In the case of Ueshiba, "martial power" was clearly a trivial matter to him in his latter decades. His focus was spiritual. And going back further, what is your explanation for the whole Omoto involvement? Why go to Mongolia? Why get involved in politics? The huge investment in personal time and energy he put into these things, at the expense of training his internal power, really indicates that the martial power aspect was a minor piece of the puzzle.

I would go so far as to say that a solo training / internal power training method cognate to what Ueshiba was doing, followed simply for the benefit of pushing oneself off of walls and avoiding joint-locks and such, is a far more degenerate version of what Ueshiba was doing than Aikikai Aikido.
I would say that if one were guilty of simplifying an argument your is the worst case.
I would say there are people with unusual power, that did not sacrifice family, job, or even other hobbies.
What I think is pertinent to the discussion is that there is almost no one involved in these discussions who:
1. Has unusual power.
2. Knows what it took to get it.
3 Therefore understands in a far more definitive fashion just how ludicrous this idea of "obsession" to the point of twisting and limiting the persons life ..truly is. :rolleyes:

Again, I can't help but note that I think it is outsiders looking in and judging values of a skill set they do not possess, have no understanding of, don't even know how to pursue it, much less what it took others to attain it. The discussion for most people is over the heads. And in the greatest sense of hubris, they now insinuate that those who did manage to get it...had to be weird, unbalanced, OCD people incapable of sustaining healthy relationships.
Good job!

I don't mind making comments, but I am not going to argue about it. As one well known teacher said about the internet:
"Why argue with students?"
Dan

DH
10-31-2012, 10:15 AM
In the case of Ueshiba, "martial power" was clearly a trivial matter to him in his latter decades. His focus was spiritual. And going back further, what is your explanation for the whole Omoto involvement? Why go to Mongolia? Why get involved in politics? The huge investment in personal time and energy he put into these things, at the expense of training his internal power, really indicates that the martial power aspect was a minor piece of the puzzle.

I would go so far as to say that a solo training / internal power training method cognate to what Ueshiba was doing, followed simply for the benefit of pushing oneself off of walls and avoiding joint-locks and such, is a far more degenerate version of what Ueshiba was doing than Aikikai Aikido.
The statements I outlined in bold are absurd.
1. Trivial matter?
Ueshiba practiced Internal power and displayed till the day he died. It was what all the push tests are about, as well as his solo training. Again -to point to the absurd- please point to any of his peers who ONLY practiced his spiritual pursuits who had any...any...unusual physical power. Beyond certain practices that offered physical training (as in certain chanting breath training) His spiritual pursuits had nothing to do with his physical power. It is a separate topic.
2. He put aside internal training for his spiritual practice and pursuits?
That is just more nonsense as in "it makes no sense." They can be-though not necessarily so- intertwined, and solo training was his daily practice which he ...like everyone else who knows better, took with him. One does not discount the other

3. Degenerate?
Since the entire thrust of Ueshiba's solo regimen was for building power, since much of his personal demonstrations in latter life involve push tests displays of power you are essentially calling your own founders practices degenerate to his own art. And you don't even understand why or how.

Overall, I think the responses are damaging to your own cause and futures... and even unkind to the founders of your own arts. You're shooting yourselves in the foot and reducing your practice to external mechancis like every other lower level martial art, and missing his message almost entirely. There is so much more for you, if you would just follow what he discussed and actually did.
It won't leave you weird, or self absorbed, blind or with hair on the palms of your hands!
Dan

David Orange
10-31-2012, 10:42 AM
You really think that captures what these guys were doing with their lives? Obsessive-compulsive, consuming drive towards training for "martial strength" and power?

Is that why Ueshiba went to Mongolia to help found a utopia? Because he thought it was a path to internal power?

I think in Ueshiba's case, "martial power" was a trivial, childish goal as he got older. His training was aimed at becoming a conduit of the kami, and to that end his aim was to be able to attain a state of open awareness and a totally uncritical non-consciousness.

As to why some Aikido teachers have reputations as brutes, two words: Imperial Army.

Having had little exposure to "mainstream aikido," I'm not really familiar with any of the "brutes" among the most well-known teachers, but I believe very few of those were in the Imperial army. They were post-war students of O Sensei who just got mad with power, especially after they found what aikido technique, alone, could do against much larger westerners. They began to feel like gods, especially with all these westerners bowing and scraping to them and treating them like gods.

However, these were the same people who didn't understand O Sensei's words and mostly rejected all his spiritual teachings, which in large degree turn out to be allegorical instruction on using yin and yang in the body. And while O Sensei was thrusting a spear into trees, alone, and doing all his solo martial training, these students were doing the typical Japanese social thing of getting drunk and steeling themselves for the next day's efforts--using will power and muscle to bear the heavy load of all that training. It did make them godlike to naive westerners, but it left them with tremendous gaps in their knowledge, including deeper understanding of what it was in their training that had made them so strong--even though they never approached the mysterious skills of O Sensei.

So mere "mainstream aikido" training made them physically very good, but also produced a lot of people who were womanizers and bullies--not that I've ever encountered such people, but I can say that the "tough" schools I've encountered tend to be safer than the "spiritually" oriented schools because everyone knows why they're in the tough school. At the "spiritual" places, it's a weird mishmash of half-martial/half-spiritual, the "martial" side being overly casual and vague, and the "spiritual" side is a mishmash of the teacher's idiosyncratic interpretation of some mistranslated words from O Sensei....while the whole thing parades under an imitation of the martial strictness of the more famous teachers.

And none of these people begin to approach O Sensei's abilities.

Mark has done a great job of profiling four major aiki masters: Takeda, Sagawa, Horikawa and Ueshiba. All, clearly, had devastating physical power, but none were famous for hurting people in general. We mostly know about aiki and the masters mentioned because of Morihei Ueshiba's spreading a version of the art as aikido. So we have 10,000,000 practitioners of aikido (according to Lee, at least), but almost none of them have power like the masters mentioned above. However, in aikido, we do have a lot of dirty-shot artists and in my experience, these are found mostly among the "spiritual" adherents, who get easily frightened by a little realistic technique and respond with violence.

We often make the mistake of thinking that Morihei Ueshiba was really more spiritual than the others mentioned, but we don't really know much at all about the spiritual beliefs of the other people (except, as Chris Li noted, the document posted in Sagawa's dojo that sounds exactly like the things Ueshiba said). Ueshiba did not become more famous than all the others because he was fantastically more skilled than they, nor because he was a "better" human being (though, apparently, he was truly a great person), but because he was a proselytizer who wanted to develop a huge following around the world. Sagawa and Horikawa seem to have been just as skilled as Ueshiba, but they preferred to retain the ancient truths intact, while Ueshiba was happy to send out thousands (or tens of millions) to do a standardized physical routine which only hinted at the deeper content, and that form was then distorted by the intellectual errors of those who felt themselves able to understand words that had already been mistranslated.

No question about it. You have to look far below the surface of modern aikido to understand its place in history and its true import on the spiritual level.

David

David Orange
10-31-2012, 11:26 AM
I will also make a prediction that in ten years those "doing the work" will not have achieved Ueshiba's level...and between then and now many are going to have problems. It's just the nature of the beast.

Go ahead and build a different body and you have no control over some things at all...those that claim to have studied deeply should know better or at least be a little worried...or haven't you been really listening to what was said by those that went before.... ;)

You can end up in a right mess and many have...all to feed someone's ego (maybe even you're own) and follow the dream of being a Budo giant...lol...you people have no idea.

It should be noted that out of 10,000,000 people doing aikido only 1000 has met Mr Harden. I would be asking for some kind of insurance and how he will support even the few people he personally knows if things go wrong....

It should also be noted that most enlightened people don't do MA do they? they don't kick or punch anyone? so what have you got? you don't have aikido for sure....

Lee, in all the years I've been involved with martial arts, Japan and China, I've come to find two major types of responses when people first encounter aikido: the natural response of the normal person with no prejudice is one of wonder and amazement, mixed with fear and respect; the other is from those with an agenda, usually religious, who, while knowing no more about the art than the "normal" person, nonetheless run their initial impressions through a set of filters and processors that spits out a predictably biased reaction consisting mostly of fear and condemnation.

For instance, I once talked with a radio preacher who was in the business of making money off people's need for spiritual comfort and assurance. Part of his business was selling books about how nasty all the other religions and spiritual practices of the world were. He covered all kinds of cults and religions and, in one section, dealt "comprehensively" with Orientalism and such martial arts as aikido, tai chi, kung fu and so on.

Interestingly, your tone and statements call this fellow strongly back to mind. With no understanding of the practices and beliefs he was criticizing, he set up a straw sensei and knocked him down and stood on his head in the name of Jesus. You do something similar in the name of O Sensei. You give your location as "Japan," but I'd like to know some more about that: where are you in Japan, how long have you been there, what are you studying and with whom, and how long, altogether, have you trained in aikido (also where and with whom)?

However, my main reason for responding here is to say that, whatever your existing knowledge, you are speaking with no knowledge at all of what Mark is speaking about. How do you feel qualified to pass such judgments on that subject?

One night, when the famous radio preacher was in town, I went by the radio station and had a talk with him. He was unmoved and unconcerned as I pointed out the many mistakes he had made in condemning martial arts.

I told him, "As an aikido man, I believe that a force like living water comes from my lower abdomen."

He said, "Well, that's obviously cultish thinking."

I said, "But listen to Jesus, who said, "Who believeth in me, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

This caught him, but he finally said, "David, do you know what I think about you?"

I said, "Yes."

Startled, he said, "Really? What do I think about you?"

I said, "You think I'm terribly confused and in serious danger of becoming demon possessed."

He nodded and admitted that I did, in fact, know what he was thinking. Then I said, "Do you know what I think about you?"

He was at a loss. He could not imagine what I was thinking.

I told him, "I think you are terribly confused and in serious danger of becoming demon possessed."

That shook him up. As I drove away, I listened to him on the radio, telling the audience that he was "believing God for a blue Mercedes car."

In other words, don't be so eager to condemn the serious study undertaken by others when you seem to be taking whatever you're given at face value and looking no further.

Best to you.

David

Conrad Gus
10-31-2012, 11:41 AM
Ueshiba was happy to send out thousands (or tens of millions) to do a standardized physical routine which only hinted at the deeper content, and that form was then distorted by the intellectual errors of those who felt themselves able to understand words that had already been mistranslated.
David

Granted, there is some lame aikido in the world, but this is a gross exaggeration. There are far too many truly excellent aikido practitioners in the world for this to possibly be true.

Sorry, it's just obvious.

Conrad

mathewjgano
10-31-2012, 12:01 PM
Since the entire thrust of Ueshiba's solo regimen was for building power, since much of his personal demonstrations in latter life involve push tests displays of power you are essentially calling your own founders practices degenerate to his own art. And you don't even understand why or how.

I might be splitting hairs, but couldn't this depend a little on how we look at it? If his overarching goal was to come into accord with kamisama, and this was a way of doing that couldn't we say the building of power was a means to this end? ...That the entire thrust of his actions (which includes the solo regimen) were about realizing a kind of Heaven on Earth?

Might it not be a fair suggestion that O Sensei was more concerned with realizing the purposes of kamisama than of building power? And that this is reflected in how he taught and allowed his students to then teach?
Take care,
Matt

David Orange
10-31-2012, 12:12 PM
Granted, there is some lame aikido in the world, but this is a gross exaggeration. There are far too many truly excellent aikido practitioners in the world for this to possibly be true.

Sorry, it's just obvious.


Believe me, I got plenty of good from "standard aikido" over the many years I trained before I felt the power from Minoru Akuzawa and Dan Harden. And while my aikido never failed me when I needed it, I had to admit, after all, that it was much closer to a type of jujutsu than to the type of aiki displayed by Morihei Ueshiba, Yukiyoshi Sagawa and Kodo Horikawa.

It has, indeed, been "hidden in plain sight."

Best to you.

David

David Orange
10-31-2012, 12:15 PM
I might be splitting hairs, but couldn't this depend a little on how we look at it? If his overarching goal was to come into accord with kamisama, and this was a way of doing that couldn't we say the building of power was a means to this end? ...That the entire thrust of his actions (which includes the solo regimen) were about realizing a kind of Heaven on Earth?

Might it not be a fair suggestion that O Sensei was more concerned with realizing the purposes of kamisama than of building power? And that this is reflected in how he taught and allowed his students to then teach?


It's worth splitting hairs on this subject, I believe. But we have to split them as finely as we can and I notice a distinct split between Ueshiba's "purpose of the kamisama" and the general, vague pursuit of "universal love" espoused by so many who have no power.

Best to you.

David

DH
10-31-2012, 12:37 PM
I might be splitting hairs, but couldn't this depend a little on how we look at it? If his overarching goal was to come into accord with kamisama, and this was a way of doing that couldn't we say the building of power was a means to this end? ...That the entire thrust of his actions (which includes the solo regimen) were about realizing a kind of Heaven on Earth?

Might it not be a fair suggestion that O Sensei was more concerned with realizing the purposes of kamisama than of building power? And that this is reflected in how he taught and allowed his students to then teach?
Take care,
Matt
Hi Matt
Well, I would seriously ask you to consider why someone with a supposedly purely religious ideal would pursue budo at all?
And that being said...why would he continuously explore, train in and continue to display demonstrations of POWER...all commensurate with the typical tests done in internal MARTIAL ARTS...if all he was really concerned about was God or The Gods?

Spiritual pursuits
I have no issue with a spiritual pursuit what so ever. In fact I think it is part of understanding or appreciating Aikido. It just isn't a source for power or aiki that the founder displayed and never was.
Doubt it?
Why is it that no one, anywhere, who only pursued the spiritual practices, demonstrated ANY power whatsoever?
Why?
Because there is no power to be had from only pursuing a spiritual practice sans any physical training exercises. And for those who keep saying otherwise I repeat "Tell me who? and if it's you...step up, and let's test that out!" They won't because other than talk, they simply have nothing to show.

Again all of this conveniently avoids the fact that there was, and is a method to train for power that existed before him, he pointed to it, he practiced it continuously, and others who will simply do it will achieve similar results.
The second fact being most don't know it, can't practice it because they don't know what to practice and thus will NEVER achieve what he did to any degree.
They are practicing the art from the outside-in..instead of from inside-out.

Dan

DH
10-31-2012, 01:06 PM
And for those who keep repeating that we are only talking about three people? Please stop it. Everyone pretty much agrees there is list of greats in Aikido. It's been stated over and over. That was never an issue. The issue is...what about you? What are you doing to go beyond Shihan level with soft power? Why aren't...you...there?
What are...you... doing to get there?
Dan

Cliff Judge
10-31-2012, 01:39 PM
And for those who keep repeating that we are only talking about three people? Please stop it. Everyone pretty much agrees there is list of greats in Aikido. It's been stated over and over. That was never an issue. The issue is...what about you? What are you doing to go beyond Shihan level with soft power? Why aren't...you...there?
What are...you... doing to get there?
Dan

Dan, the original post in this thread regarded Takeda, Ueshiba, Kodo, and Sagawa. That's actually four. Perhaps you are...too focused on one thing to remember?? :D

mathewjgano
10-31-2012, 01:46 PM
...I notice a distinct split between Ueshiba's "purpose of the kamisama" and the general, vague pursuit of "universal love" espoused by so many who have no power.

Best to you.

David

Hi David,
Or, at the least, a more common kind of power. I wonder if O Sensei reached a point where he figured people tend to do and see what they want and in certain regards started leaving people to their own aims, since they often do that anyway. Perhaps he felt as long as a handful of people maintained the "heart," it was ok if so many other people, who were essentially interested in other goals than his, did something a little different. His principle of developing yourself first, then your household, etc. suggests that at times he was probably much more concerned with his own role in the Universe than that of others, including his own family to a small degree; leaving it to them on some level to sort things out for themsleves.
This ties into the idea of "monomania" insofaras his personal training probably took greater importance than that of his students; that his training seemed to be part of his spirituality implies to me that it was of the highest importance to him, to the point where circumstances probably meant occassionally excluding other very important aspects of his life.
Of course, I'm just spitballin': I am in no position to guess at much more than my own little corner of things, and I'm just a novice even there, so I'll go back to practicing the art of listening, which I'm generally better suited for anyway. :D

HL1978
10-31-2012, 02:12 PM
I will add something though...while Ueshiba may have been very focussed in certain areas we have no information that his vision for aikido is what you think. Let's think about that...at what point did he speak to the westerners on mass and say...you guys should do what Mark etal says?

When finding his students trying to make things work in real life he stopped them saying basically he spent his whole life doing that so they didn't have to.....were those kind words of protection I wonder.....did you?

And so you see while not a definitive answer by any means you think he wanted you to be the same as him...whilst you don't have any idea what he really went through. And if you don't know how can you say that you are doing his aikido and others should too?.

Now if you start to think a bit more you will see that you generally point to only 3 or more people really with power out of a nation of how many?. So is it a safe thing for the masses to have?....I guess at your stage you don't really know. I've stated you can get very sick...this stuff can mess you up big time...

Practises have to be followed correctly and imho its essential to be be led by someone with true understanding that's been passed down for a long time...do you have that? do others?....even simple things can mess up a person when done wrongly. You're spouting to lots of people who you don't know who can then easily go and get things very wrong...hence I say you are irresponsible.

I have little more to say.

All the best

Lee

If you are aware that Aiki training is dangerous, I think the responsible thing would be to discuss how it is dangerous, if it is possible to train in a manner to mitigate the danger, and provide evidence for why it is particuarly dangerous. Otherwise, one might construe your comments as being deliberately provacative.

I will state that if you can do "aiki", like having any other knowledge of things others might not be able to do, one could easily develop a big head and lord that knowledge over others, but I assume this is not what you are referring to.

I don't think anyone who is talking about aiki, or IS/IP has ever said only three people have it. I'm pretty certain that names of other people in japan have popped up like Kuroda, Akuzawa, Ushiro etc let alone those in Chinese based arts.

David Orange
10-31-2012, 02:22 PM
... I wonder if O Sensei reached a point where he figured people tend to do and see what they want and in certain regards started leaving people to their own aims, since they often do that anyway. Perhaps he felt as long as a handful of people maintained the "heart," it was ok if so many other people, who were essentially interested in other goals than his, did something a little different. His principle of developing yourself first, then your household, etc. suggests that at times he was probably much more concerned with his own role in the Universe than that of others, including his own family to a small degree; leaving it to them on some level to sort things out for themsleves.
This ties into the idea of "monomania" insofaras his personal training probably took greater importance than that of his students; that his training seemed to be part of his spirituality implies to me that it was of the highest importance to him, to the point where circumstances probably meant occassionally excluding other very important aspects of his life.

I think any person has to be considered as a total being and the insistence so many people show on dividing his martial devotion from his spiritual devotion seems like a mistake to me. It results in dilution of his serious martial commitment (in their minds) and this leads them to pass on something that is neither his real spirituality nor his real martial practice, as they try to pass off Takeda as someone of a lower character whom Morihei had surpassed. He may have been a nicer guy than Takeda, but I don't necessarily believe that. Each man was what he was. Actually, to me, Omotokyo seems more or less like a cult that Morihei strongly believed in. I'm not sure it really added anything. He was a devoted person in his heart. Omotokyo just gave him something to be devoted to. And aikido was neither daito ryu nor Omotokyo. I'm content to accept it for what it is rather than trying to extract ores that it doesn't really contain.

I do think he was pretty monomaniacal, like any great artist. Some like Van Gogh, show it to an extreme, while others, like Picasso, are able to live with it.

FWIW.

Best to you.

David

Chris Li
10-31-2012, 03:29 PM
I am arguing for the possibility that this is a very myopic view of what these men were after, in the case of Kodo, Sagawa, and Takeda, about which we know comparatively little.

That Taichi guy...who didn't build a house for his family because it would cut into his training time...that's a powerful cautionary image but I don't think it is the proper cookie cutter for the four aiki greats we are discussing.

In the case of Ueshiba, "martial power" was clearly a trivial matter to him in his latter decades. His focus was spiritual. And going back further, what is your explanation for the whole Omoto involvement? Why go to Mongolia? Why get involved in politics? The huge investment in personal time and energy he put into these things, at the expense of training his internal power, really indicates that the martial power aspect was a minor piece of the puzzle.

I would go so far as to say that a solo training / internal power training method cognate to what Ueshiba was doing, followed simply for the benefit of pushing oneself off of walls and avoiding joint-locks and such, is a far more degenerate version of what Ueshiba was doing than Aikikai Aikido.

I disagree that martial power is a minor part of the puzzle - if you look at what Ueshiba said in the context of the training method it is clear to me, at least, that the training is what powered everything else.

If martial training were minor he would have abandoned it. If that had happened, then people like Saito, trained directly by Ueshiba post-war, would have been unconcerned with the martial aspects.

Of course, for Saito it was quite the opposite - he often criticized the way Aikido was done in Tokyo as having lost those very aspects.

Someone can be driven, and sacrifice parts of their life, and yet still do more than one thing. Nobody said differently. Kisshomaru Ueshiba, for example, expressed regret over how he treated his wife and the things that he sacrificed in developing the post-war Aikikai organization. Most people who achieve great things are probably a little bit monomaniacal in some ways.

And I think that solo training is a little bit more than pushing yourself off walls and avoiding joint locks.

I could talk about how Aikikai Aikido is about dressing up in skirts and twirling around in circles - but that kind of comment isn't very constructive either, is it?

Best,

Chris

gregstec
10-31-2012, 03:32 PM
10,000,000 people doing Aikido? where does that number come from ?

Greg

Since no one decided to answer my question and provide any reference for this number, I did a little research on my own.

Looking at the websites of the major Aikido organizations (ASU, AAA, AWA, Kokikai, Takemasu, Yoshinkan, Yuishinkai, Ki Society) for affiliated dojo lists, I found that there are approximately a total of 801 dojos within these organizations worldwide. I then went to the Aikikai World Federation and looked at two of the larger organizations in there and found that the USAF has 201 dojos and CAF has 67 - this give us a hard fact of 1069 dojos. The Aikido World Federation had another 65 organizations listed, so I gave them a generous estimate of 100 dojos each as an average for the rest of the organization - now we have a very generous number of 8,638 Aikido dojos worldwide within the major Aikido organizations. Of course, we all know there are independents out there as well, so continuing with a generous trend, I gave the same number of 8,638 for the independents; this gives a very generous estimate of about 25,914 Aikido dojos worldwide. Let's round that up to 26,000 for simplicity sake.

OK, we have 26,000 dojos, and still following a generous path, let's estimate we have an average of 25 members per dojo (actually, IMO, I think it is closer to 10 to 15) but I am trying to be as fair as possible here. Doing the math, this only gives us 650,000 Aikido students worldwide - no where close to the 10,000,000 that was thrown out here in this thread. IMO, I think it is really closer to 350,000, give or take a few thousand.

And just for some quantification and qualification of the other number thrown out in the same post, of those 1000 students of Dan's, not all are Aikido students - there are folks from Daitoryu, Koryu, Karate, and various Chinese arts as well. I would at best estimate that only 50 percent are strictly Aikido with another 20 percent that do Aikido and other MAs. As to the quality of all those 1000 students, at least 95 percent have 20 plus yeas experience in the MAs and their ranks range from mid level yudansha up to 7th dan; these people are considered within the top 1% of their arts and do not casually follow anyone or do anything that does not have substance and can improve their skills at their high levels. It just amazes me that relative newbies in the art can summarily dismiss what these people are doing simply because they don't understand what is going on and it appears to be counter to what they have picked up in their limited experiences.

IMO, you need to embrace the unknown if you want to be in a position to grow and learn; any other approach will just not lead to anything of any substantial accomplishment.

Greg

MM
10-31-2012, 06:38 PM
Since no one decided to answer my question and provide any reference for this number, I did a little research on my own.

Looking at the websites of the major Aikido organizations (ASU, AAA, AWA, Kokikai, Takemasu, Yoshinkan, Yuishinkai, Ki Society) for affiliated dojo lists, I found that there are approximately a total of 801 dojos within these organizations worldwide. I then went to the Aikikai World Federation and looked at two of the larger organizations in there and found that the USAF has 201 dojos and CAF has 67 - this give us a hard fact of 1069 dojos. The Aikido World Federation had another 65 organizations listed, so I gave them a generous estimate of 100 dojos each as an average for the rest of the organization - now we have a very generous number of 8,638 Aikido dojos worldwide within the major Aikido organizations. Of course, we all know there are independents out there as well, so continuing with a generous trend, I gave the same number of 8,638 for the independents; this gives a very generous estimate of about 25,914 Aikido dojos worldwide. Let's round that up to 26,000 for simplicity sake.

OK, we have 26,000 dojos, and still following a generous path, let's estimate we have an average of 25 members per dojo (actually, IMO, I think it is closer to 10 to 15) but I am trying to be as fair as possible here. Doing the math, this only gives us 650,000 Aikido students worldwide - no where close to the 10,000,000 that was thrown out here in this thread. IMO, I think it is really closer to 350,000, give or take a few thousand.


I can't find it, but I thought I read somewhere that the estimated aikido population was around one million. I'm thinking that encompassed total students and teachers (both active and non active members). And if I remember correctly, it was an old statistic. Done when the economy was very good. Now, I think your calculations are more accurate. :)


And just for some quantification and qualification of the other number thrown out in the same post, of those 1000 students of Dan's, not all are Aikido students - there are folks from Daitoryu, Koryu, Karate, and various Chinese arts as well. I would at best estimate that only 50 percent are strictly Aikido with another 20 percent that do Aikido and other MAs. As to the quality of all those 1000 students, at least 95 percent have 20 plus yeas experience in the MAs and their ranks range from mid level yudansha up to 7th dan; these people are considered within the top 1% of their arts and do not casually follow anyone or do anything that does not have substance and can improve their skills at their high levels. It just amazes me that relative newbies in the art can summarily dismiss what these people are doing simply because they don't understand what is going on and it appears to be counter to what they have picked up in their limited experiences.

IMO, you need to embrace the unknown if you want to be in a position to grow and learn; any other approach will just not lead to anything of any substantial accomplishment.

Greg

Very nicely said.

wxyzabc
10-31-2012, 07:19 PM
Blimey Greg you must have been bored...the figure came from a very well known source...it's availabe to read...did you find that? ^^

It's a common claim especially by Mr harden etal that if someone shows alarm it must be someone who doesn't have the skills and is looking in with no idea...lol. This is far from the case and is merely self protection but only on his side. Generally he may have started something he has very little control over imho...but ego led will have you believe that you too will be a budo giant and that there are no risks to this. Yet logically if this were the case everyone..and I mean everyone would have done that wouldn't they. Even he says he thinks others refused to do the work...why was that? is it evolution or devilution of aikido and possibly you...take care is all I say.

Mr Harden will not support you if you get sick..and you can. Don't even expect a reasonable reply by mail.....which to be fair Mark did try and provide. But again he is not an authority and truly does not have skills/understanding of Japan imho to say what he often does here (again read back through those thousands of posts/propoganda)

What can go wrong can be very very dangerous...to you....it's an insipid thing this in someways...you've let someone walk into aikido...lie to you about a lot of things (and you need to think about that) for personal reasons only..not yours. History will show that people didn't just shout to the world about this...men were specially chosen that could do something safely and would keep quiet. Ueshiba wasn't directly given some information because he was in someways a show off....can I say that? Think about how he approached a Judoka on a train. The others kept quiet for other reasons than personal glory...to protect. Even Sagawa had the foresight to see what could happen if westerners had any understanding, hence he said don't teach them...ever. Again those words may have been screwed by some here to make you feel you're not enough..and can't do....ahhh but he's the answer...mmm

Don't you think a regular normal guy wouldn't have just invited a few people to his dojo/barn and gone about things quietly. Strange that at the age of 55 ish he constantly has to bicker and attack people in aikido to get attention/fame/money?....look back and you will find a constant stream of this. Dubious in the extreme is what I would say..coming from a place where people do and can have real skills but are very responsible. They don't do that do they? they don't stand and say "you've all failed to a man"....be wary..be very wary of this one..

phitruong
10-31-2012, 07:45 PM
IMO, you need to embrace the unknown if you want to be in a position to grow and learn; any other approach will just not lead to anything of any substantial accomplishment.

Greg

nah! you don't want to embrace the unknown. you might get sue for harassment. or at best get a slap in the face and be told to look but not touch. it's better to stick with the known. it's safer that way. :)

wxyzabc
10-31-2012, 07:53 PM
Real accomplishment is to get through life safely, grow with the people around you and understand that the unknown is exactly that imho. There is a very real difference between excellence and success...

All the best
p.s. whilst you may take my posts lightly....you may also be lightly taking on board some of the warnings of those before..because it's outside you're understanding..and those words must mean something different ;)

phitruong
10-31-2012, 07:57 PM
Blimey Greg you must have been bored...the figure came from a very well known source...it's availabe to read...did you find that? ^^


if you have the source, then post it. hints and innuendos are a passive-aggresive kind of thing. we are better than that don't you think? asians tend to talk round and round and don't always get to the point. doesn't work well on the internet. reasonable men discuss things on the up and up. take the high road.

David Orange
10-31-2012, 08:45 PM
....be wary..be very wary of this one..

Lee....I have no doubt that Dan has far deeper experience in Japan than you.

What is it you're trying to prove, bud?

You're attacking a thing and many people you really know nothing about.

You're equally guilty of every charge you press.

But it's Halloween here. Maybe you're just masquerading as a saint.

FWIW.

David

wxyzabc
10-31-2012, 08:52 PM
Hya

It's a number I recall very well...but I can't and don't have the time to find the source again for you to look at...sorry. Does it really matter? I'm not asian btw ^^ but they wouldn't just say something stupid now would they. These are ancient cultures, with real understanding of a lot of things....but from afar it's easy to look and misunderstand.

Regardless let it be said that other cultures can often abound with competitiveness...and in the rush for supremacy of something you don't really know at all you can become very unstuck. Few years back you knew of none of this did you? it's a fair comment isn't it. And now you have to change your body, which will also change your subconciousness to be something..or that's what others will have you do....and that can go very wrong ....damaging both your mind and your body.

Now can you do that safely? if you can then go ahead and try if you will, but I wouldn't publisice it to anyone until you are well assured of their safety...and hence people have kept very very quiet. People need to think on this. We can easily see looking in a very limited way that people had lots of problems...and these are the ones you are allowed to see...think about that too.

Changes made should be very very slow...I can't emphasise this enough....but in reality everything everyone needs is already in aikido isn't it. You'd have to be totally in love with a person not to believe that..it's already there and can be done very safely. Other things maybe can't..I can assure you. If you're not very good at aikido...and others have said basically they weren't...then accept that and think why and how you could become better in a natural way is my advise. People do forget the basics...I see it all the time.

Then safely over time you can and will achieve excellence in aikido...maybe not MMA....but most are not doing that are they? and that's the thing..this is basically poaching on a large scale in a way imho....telling others to go out and see if you can use your practise in different venues other than aikido. In truth many think that their aikido as it stands will allow them to do this..and to be fair usually it won't, but then aikido as it stands can become destroyed by the egomanical behaviour of those that have done something different.

It's a fair warning and I won't have my name behind that...will you? I've already met some doing some work that didn't have any real idea imho but had already strengthened themselves to a degree that made practise very uncomfortable for others...thats not a step forward...it's clearly a degeneration.

So you can see I say this with care...be careful

wxyzabc
10-31-2012, 08:56 PM
"Lee....I have no doubt that Dan has far deeper experience in Japan than you"

Is that so? I've spent most of the last 12 years here. Yet maybe it is.....what's Dan's true experience here then?

My first posting here in some time was met with basically an attack by him...that's just damaging.

All the best

Lee

David Orange
10-31-2012, 09:27 PM
It's a number I recall very well...but I can't and don't have the time to find the source again for you to look at...sorry. Does it really matter?

Does it not? 350,000 or 10,000,000??? At least naming the source will shed some light on how you think.

...And now you have to change your body, which will also change your subconciousness to be something..or that's what others will have you do....and that can go very wrong ....damaging both your mind and your body.

Yeah...so what have you been doing with your mind and body?

Now can you do that safely? if you can then go ahead and try if you will, but I wouldn't publisice it to anyone until you are well assured of their safety...and hence people have kept very very quiet. People need to think on this. We can easily see looking in a very limited way that people had lots of problems...and these are the ones you are allowed to see...think about that too.

The main reason for secrecy in this field has been the fighting advantage. If anything, rather than keep quiet about it, the Japanese would be more likely to spread misinformation to weaken potential opponents.

Everyone I know who's into this has cautioned people to be careful and think deeply about what they're doing. Aneurysm and stroke are but two of the potential results from wrong training. But in the aikido world, we already see enough megalomania to recognize that danger, as well.

David Orange
10-31-2012, 09:30 PM
...I've spent most of the last 12 years here. Yet maybe it is.....what's Dan's true experience here then?

You haven't said what your true experience has been there. I knew people who were there twelve years without learning a word of Japanese and without taking any martial arts. Others who were there and involved with low level schools where there was nothing much to be learned. One guy was there several years growing marijuana....so....what have you been doing? Where, and with whom?

My first posting here in some time was met with basically an attack by him...that's just damaging.

Ah. All clear, then.

Keep calm and carry on.

gregstec
10-31-2012, 09:36 PM
Blimey Greg you must have been bored...the figure came from a very well known source...it's availabe to read...did you find that? ^^

No, I have no clue where you came up with that figure - that is why I asked for reference data that supported the number. Based on the information at this link: http://www.joshuaproject.net/world-clock.php - there are about 4.5 billion people in the world (male and female, between the ages of 15 to 64 - I do not think I would be stretching the truth much if I assumed that 99.99% of the those studying Aikido today would be represented in that group. Based on your figure of 10 million Aikido students in the world, it would mean that 2 out of every 1000 in that group would be a student of Aikido. That is an absolutely absurd number to me. If you have a data source to support your claim, please provide it.

It's a common claim especially by Mr harden etal that if someone shows alarm it must be someone who doesn't have the skills and is looking in with no idea...lol. This is far from the case and is merely self protection but only on his side. Generally he may have started something he has very little control over imho...but ego led will have you believe that you too will be a budo giant and that there are no risks to this. Yet logically if this were the case everyone..and I mean everyone would have done that wouldn't they. Even he says he thinks others refused to do the work...why was that? is it evolution or devilution of aikido and possibly you...take care is all I say.

Mr Harden will not support you if you get sick..and you can. Don't even expect a reasonable reply by mail.....which to be fair Mark did try and provide. But again he is not an authority and truly does not have skills/understanding of Japan imho to say what he often does here (again read back through those thousands of posts/propoganda)

What can go wrong can be very very dangerous...to you....it's an insipid thing this in someways...you've let someone walk into aikido...lie to you about a lot of things (and you need to think about that) for personal reasons only..not yours. History will show that people didn't just shout to the world about this...men were specially chosen that could do something safely and would keep quiet. Ueshiba wasn't directly given some information because he was in someways a show off....can I say that? Think about how he approached a Judoka on a train. The others kept quiet for other reasons than personal glory...to protect. Even Sagawa had the foresight to see what could happen if westerners had any understanding, hence he said don't teach them...ever. Again those words may have been screwed by some here to make you feel you're not enough..and can't do....ahhh but he's the answer...mmm

Don't you think a regular normal guy wouldn't have just invited a few people to his dojo/barn and gone about things quietly. Strange that at the age of 55 ish he constantly has to bicker and attack people in aikido to get attention/fame/money?....look back and you will find a constant stream of this. Dubious in the extreme is what I would say..coming from a place where people do and can have real skills but are very responsible. They don't do that do they? they don't stand and say "you've all failed to a man"....be wary..be very wary of this one..

As far as the rest of your post, the above is absolutely nonsensical. You speak in the first person as if you know Dan and those that train with him from a very authoritative position that you know all about what we are up to - neither of which is true. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but don't talk about people and things you know nothing about as if you do. If you present a position, back it up with supporting data; which you have not done in any of your posts as far as I can tell.

Greg

wxyzabc
10-31-2012, 09:42 PM
And yet things are being broadcasted widely to anyone and everyone with no warning whatsoever.

My experience is not so bad you know ;) as I'm not asking you to do anything I don't need to say too much...but I will say I'm acquainted with some of the highest level aikidoka anywhere....plus other things...and that's all.

This is not a personal thing at all you know...but generally I don't get why the little "in group" don't talk privately...why is everything being pushed in front of the unknowing and unprotected public?

See I'm a very reasonable person :)

All the best

Lee

wxyzabc
10-31-2012, 09:43 PM
Greg..in all good humour..read more slowly ^^

Lee

stan baker
10-31-2012, 09:58 PM
And yet things are being broadcasted widely to anyone and everyone with no warning whatsoever.

My experience is not so bad you know ;) as I'm not asking you to do anything I don't need to say too much...but I will say I'm acquainted with some of the highest level aikidoka anywhere....plus other things...and that's all.

This is not a personal thing at all you know...but generally I don't get why the little "in group" don't talk privately...why is everything being pushed in front of the unknowing and unprotected public?

See I'm a very reasonable person :)

All the best

Lee

Hi Lee
I am also aware of the highest level aikidoka
so what are you talking about.

stan

gregstec
10-31-2012, 09:58 PM
Greg..in all good humour..read more slowly ^^

Lee

Lee, in all good humour, it is my understanding that you are an English teacher in Japan, and as an educator, you should know the importance of doing your homework and research - in my grade book, you get an F in those areas :)

Greg

David Orange
10-31-2012, 10:06 PM
Lee, in all good humour, it is my understanding that you are an English teacher in Japan, and as an educator, you should know the importance of doing your homework and research - in my grade book, you get an F in those areas :)


I'm willing to leave it as Incomplete.

But most of what I've seen has been C-....so...

David

wxyzabc
10-31-2012, 10:06 PM
Wow....Greg you're just mean ^^

Mr Harden has before said he knows something no one else does.....what was that exactly?

Chuckle
Lee
p.s. I run a business here...so don't make me out to be run of the mill...lol:D

David Orange
10-31-2012, 10:08 PM
My experience is not so bad you know ;) as I'm not asking you to do anything I don't need to say too much...but I will say I'm acquainted with some of the highest level aikidoka anywhere....plus other things...and that's all.

Uh....right.

Don't you realize that a lot of people posting here (whom you're dismissing) also have a lot of time in Japan and not only claim "acquaintance" with "some of the highest level aikidoka anywhere," but they will name them.

Are you being passive aggressive or do you call it coy?

You're being neither "gentlemanly" nor "Japanese," so give it a rest, would you?

DH
10-31-2012, 10:15 PM
Lee stop talking about me.
a. I have nothing to do with the subject of this thread
b. Mark had nothing to do with the subject either.

You are talking about the posters, ..the people behind the posts.
Read the rules.
On top of that your comments are inflammatory and erroneous on so many levels I can only assign them to trolling.
Dan

DH
10-31-2012, 10:18 PM
Wow....Greg you're just mean ^^

Mr Harden has before said he knows something no one else does.....what was that exactly?

Chuckle
Lee
p.s. I run a business here...so don't make me out to be run of the mill...lol:D
Really. Funny I make just the opposite case.
Stop making me the subject of this thread and your erroneous ranting.

Dan

wxyzabc
10-31-2012, 10:36 PM
Go back and read folks...his words not mine.

While you may be the best thing in the world...be aware that later some people may not be thanking you ;)

You're not the subject...you started the whole subject didn't you? be careful what you give to the world Mr Harden...

David Orange
10-31-2012, 10:56 PM
Go back and read folks...his words not mine.

Reminds me of someone else who, when directly addressed, always appealed to the "folks".

It's a sure sign of a troll.;)

We've all read your words, Lee, and we can see they're empty.

Come back when you're ready to be honest.

David

wxyzabc
10-31-2012, 11:34 PM
Hya David,

I'm a very honest person....but enough of the personal affronts. I've said what does need to be said to some that should listen....

Please don't feel the need to say anything more to me now...and "folks" is just a word that is widely used and doesn't = troll.

I'm being very fair to a lot of people...if you stop to think you will see this is the case...nothing more.

I have things to do now so I'm going to say goodbye...

I'm not against anyone..be careful that you aren't either...ok...all the best

Lee

David Orange
10-31-2012, 11:56 PM
Hya David,

I'm a very honest person....but enough of the personal affronts. I've said what does need to be said to some that should listen....

Lee...lee....lee....you have made claims and failed to back them up when asked directly, replying instead with self-aggrandizement, how great your experience is (though you won't say what) what great people you know (though you won't say who)....that's called "trolling," dude.

Please don't feel the need to say anything more to me now...and "folks" is just a word that is widely used and doesn't = troll.

It's not the word, Lee. It's the appeal to the onlookers to come and stand by your very weak position. No one wants to stand by that kind of thing.

I'm being very fair to a lot of people...if you stop to think you will see this is the case...nothing more.

No, Lee. You haven't been fair to anyone. Fair to anyone is fair to all. You've flung insults and insinuations but you haven't had the honesty to back it up.

I'm not against anyone..be careful that you aren't either...ok...all the best

There's no need to be against someone who is blatantly undermining himself. Your credibility here has long since leaked away. Why would I bother to be against someone like that? Your passive aggressiveness will just result in your being left entirely out of the conversations you have such a need to be a part of. Maybe if you looked at your own posts a bit more closely and worried less about advising everyone else, you might be taken seriously. Addressing you at all is just a form of giving you a chance to do that. The answers you give show the waste of giving you a chance.

Best to you.
David

mathewjgano
10-31-2012, 11:59 PM
So you can see I say this with care...be careful

In all things: buyer beware. Beyond that I think it's pointless to keep talking about non-descript risks because all they seem to do is beg for apparently unanswerable questions.

My first posting here in some time was met with basically an attack by him...that's just damaging.
Only as damaging as you allow it to be; people make mistakes; let's move forward and make something more positive then.

This is not a personal thing at all you know...but generally I don't get why the little "in group" don't talk privately...why is everything being pushed in front of the unknowing and unprotected public?
It sounds personal to me, but taking you at face value, maybe they don't know the dangers you are aware of and are just trying to help others in a way they feel thankful for...paying it forward? I'm of the philosophy that open/sincere conversation among friendly people is only a good thing...even things we can't learn about through conversation because every now and then you read/hear something that puts things in a new perspective.

So, with that in mind...Ueshiba Morihei...monomaniac or kissing-disease-aholic? :D
But seriously though...Lee, would you describe the danger(s) you're worried about as physical mental or spiritual? Applying to all three or potentially any combination thereof?
Good night and pelasant dreams all!
Matt

David Orange
11-01-2012, 12:04 AM
Well said, Matt! Best to you.

David

wxyzabc
11-01-2012, 12:47 AM
mmm..made a mistake in having a last look here didn't I...lol

So there has been no ranting from me...I have quietly stated perhaps later than I should, that you can get very sick in many ways doing alternative training...this is fact. Some problems have been addressed..others haven't and can be very dangerous to you and possibly others.

No I don't need to tell you much at all....but if you don't know then shouldn't advocate practises to all and sundry. Some have gone further...they've said all sorts about Japan etc...purely speculative at best some of it. Yet you say my words are empty...they are in a way as I'm not filling you with anything am I. Go back and read what I said...nothing wrong there at all I hope (and how would you know). If there is I apologise for that.

I don't spend all day on here so miss some people's input and don't reply to everything..this is not personal so please don't take it as such.

I haven't made any self aggrandsations at all either....I merely said I'm acquainted with some of the highest level aikidoka around...some unknown..some people operating in other arena...that's just a fact that I don't have to give any further info on. I don't know you and you don't know me....so I'm not taking anything away from anything. You think you have a right to know everything don't you...even about me...well quite simply you don't....and there are very good reasons for that.

Go talk to the people telling you to do things other than regular aikido and get the answers from them about what can happen/go wrong....again as I said earlier if they don't know then I would be very concerned and also very very careful. I'm sure you're dealing with reasonable people there, yet on this website they come across as something very different at times...anyone can..and like myself some say too much imho and not always in the best way.

The work can be good...or it can be/go very bad...and the duality is not easily controlled...

And that's it...I won't write anything more...I'm very busy and have a lot to do....this has become a distraction that I really don't need.

I'm going to go seek therapy now..lol ^^

All the best again...lets retain a sense of humour ^^

Lee

James Sawers
11-01-2012, 01:56 AM
I'm reading these posts with a lot of surprise. It seems to me that some of the most experienced martial artists here are getting sucked into a useless argument with Mr. Price. From all his postings it seems clear that he is just making all this stuff up to get a rise out of people. He says nothing and just implies a lot of nonsense. It seems doubtful that he is even an "English teacher" in Japan, if his writing is any indication of his competence.

The original post is the question is "Ueshiba the monomaniac?". The back and forth re this question is interesting. If we can get back to this question, I would like to read more.

Thanks.....In Good Practice - of any kind.

Dave de Vos
11-01-2012, 02:39 AM
...It seems doubtful that he is even an "English teacher" in Japan, if his writing is any indication of his competence..

IME getting employment as an English teacher in Japan (teaching adults in private classes) does not require more credentials than being able to speak English with some fluency. Being a native speaker may not even be a requirement.

grondahl
11-01-2012, 02:49 AM
So, have we reached a conclusion regarding Ueshiba?

Was he a religious monomaniac with a budo twist or a budo monomaniac with a religious twist?

Lee Salzman
11-01-2012, 04:04 AM
So, have we reached a conclusion regarding Ueshiba?

Was he a religious monomaniac with a budo twist or a budo monomaniac with a religious twist?

You left out the option of dual, opposing monomanias...

grondahl
11-01-2012, 04:10 AM
You left out the option of dual, opposing monomanias...

I think that the idea of dual monomanias (or maybe several monomanias during his lifetime) is far to complex for Aikiweb. This forum prefers a binary solution.

phitruong
11-01-2012, 07:14 AM
So, with that in mind...Ueshiba Morihei...monomaniac or kissing-disease-aholic? :D

Matt

i am voting for #2. you got to wonder about the whole notion aikido is all about love and harmony and blending. :)