PDA

View Full Version : I Was Wrong


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Richard Stevens
10-23-2012, 10:39 AM
In regards to IP/IS I was an extreme skeptic. After spending a weekend training with Mr. Popkin I readily admit I was completely wrong. If you have an opportunity to train with him or Joe Brogna, run, don't walk. He had great things to say about Dan Harden as well.

Rob Watson
10-23-2012, 10:55 AM
In regards to IP/IS I was an extreme skeptic. After spending a weekend training with Mr. Popkin I readily admit I was completely wrong. If you have an opportunity to train with him or Joe Brogna, run, don't walk. He had great things to say about Dan Harden as well.

Train more, post less. It will be alright. Winding, winding, spiral - puuuulllllling and back bow (trust me - this is way funny in person).

phitruong
10-23-2012, 11:20 AM
In regards to IP/IS I was an extreme skeptic. After spending a weekend training with Mr. Popkin I readily admit I was completely wrong. If you have an opportunity to train with him or Joe Brogna, run, don't walk. He had great things to say about Dan Harden as well.

come on! he couldn't have known about those stuffs. he spent most of his time fishing, and not even good at it! everyone knows that fishing involved the use of explosive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSEuD58_ZWw&feature=related therefore, his knowledge of IP/IS is suspect :D

Chris Li
10-23-2012, 11:28 AM
Don't worry, the same thing happened to me. :D

Best,

Chris

DH
10-23-2012, 11:32 AM
Me too. I thought it was all B.S.
Then I learned
Then...I thought the model was a secret to one art!!
Then two.
Oops!! :o
Dan

Carsten Möllering
10-23-2012, 12:15 PM
That's why I love live:
There are gates to be opened.
In a lot of senses.
Everyday.
Change.

Sorry for my english. In German this could be a poem ... :-)))

morph4me
10-23-2012, 02:12 PM
Welcome to the club :)

Rob Watson
10-23-2012, 03:14 PM
Yup, the real pickle is so what are you going to do now?

Chris Li
10-23-2012, 03:20 PM
Yup, the real pickle is so what are you going to do now?

Beer, and a lot of it. Might not help, but it can't hurt, right? :D

Best,

Chris

Marc Abrams
10-23-2012, 03:31 PM
Beer, and a lot of it. Might not help, but it can't hurt, right? :D

Best,

Chris

I try not get stuck in a rut, so I switch between beer, sake, red wine and some nice mixed drinks......:D

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Ernesto Lemke
10-23-2012, 04:26 PM
That's all fine and dandy but meanwhile I'll be stuck sipping Chardonnay with mr. DH the next couple of days....that's what this IP/Aiki fest seems to call for. And I like my beer...:(
Cheers

gregstec
10-23-2012, 06:34 PM
I have never been wrong in my life - just not as enlightened as I should have been on many occasions is more like it :D

Greg

gregstec
10-23-2012, 06:36 PM
I try not get stuck in a rut, so I switch between beer, sake, red wine and some nice mixed drinks......:D

Regards,

Marc Abrams

All within the same hour too - you lush :D

Marc Abrams
10-23-2012, 06:44 PM
All within the same hour too - you lush :D

Hey! I resemble that re-marc ;)

Regards,

Marc Abrams

gregstec
10-23-2012, 06:49 PM
Hey! I resemble that re-marc ;)

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Oh, you are just so cute when you get witty :crazy:

JW
10-23-2012, 09:34 PM
After spending a weekend training with Mr. Popkin I readily admit I was completely wrong.

Hi Richard- I love me a story. Any chance you can describe a little more the change of heart that you experienced? Was it sudden, like he told you to grab his wrist, and then he shocked and amazed you? Or was it more of a cumulative revalation? Thanks!

Howard Popkin
10-24-2012, 06:05 AM
Thanks for the kind words :)

Great group !!! Lots of hard work .

Hope to see you guys soon,

Best wishes,

Howard

Sacha Cloetens
10-24-2012, 09:29 AM
In regards to IP/IS I was an extreme skeptic. After spending a weekend training with Mr. Popkin I readily admit I was completely wrong. If you have an opportunity to train with him or Joe Brogna, run, don't walk. He had great things to say about Dan Harden as well.

Nah.... before "the others" were wrong.... & now.... "they" are still wrong.... :-)
enjoy
SC

Richard Stevens
10-24-2012, 09:40 AM
Hi Richard- I love me a story. Any chance you can describe a little more the change of heart that you experienced? Was it sudden, like he told you to grab his wrist, and then he shocked and amazed you? Or was it more of a cumulative revalation? Thanks!

I was a bit dumbfounded from the get-go. He started off by having us show one of our basic waza and then he showed us what it was like with "aiki". We can get it to work even with a great deal of resistance, but he did it against full resistance seemingly effortlessly. Everything else was just as impressive. His abilitiy to "connect to the ground" was unbelievable. The experience made me reconsider a lot of my views.

I have to say though, the fact that he is down the earth and seems genuinely interested in helping others improve made it such a good experience.

SteveTrinkle
10-24-2012, 10:09 AM
once Ithought Iwas wrong,but Iwas mistaken

Krystal Locke
10-24-2012, 11:48 AM
So, it was aikido, but better? You mention his connection with the ground, and ability to easily perform techniques against profoundly resistant partners. Can you go into more detail?

Most importantly, was he able to convey to you how he did those things? Did he teach you what to do, and have you been able to apply what you were taught effectively?

I am interested. If I had the free time from work, I'd check out a seminar for sure. Folks I know and respect are saying good things about the folks teaching these seminars, but are not saying that they have taken useful stuff out of the seminars and applying the techniques in their own practice. So I am not fully sold on the idea yet. Can you provide anything that would tip the balance?

Chris Li
10-24-2012, 12:06 PM
Folks I know and respect are saying good things about the folks teaching these seminars, but are not saying that they have taken useful stuff out of the seminars and applying the techniques in their own practice.

That's because it can't be done. :D

Not that there won't be things that you can immediately add on, but basically speaking, this stuff is not an add-on. It's not some extra tricks and twists that you can add on to your regular training and go along on your way.

What we're talking about is a fundamental change in the way that you use and condition your body - that change affects everything else and, eventually, is expressed in the technique (it does take some time).

So...rather than doing an "Aiki technique", you do Aiki and the technique expresses that quality of your body (and mind). If that makes sense...

Best thing is to go try it out! Alan Beebe can't be too far from you, and Dan gets down there.

Best,

Chris

Pat Togher
10-24-2012, 12:13 PM
Howard Popkin Sensei and Joe Brogna Senseis are also frequently in the Seattle.
I know it's a fair distance from you, but they are truely excellent teachers.

Pat

Richard Stevens
10-24-2012, 12:31 PM
So, it was aikido, but better? You mention his connection with the ground, and ability to easily perform techniques against profoundly resistant partners. Can you go into more detail?

Most importantly, was he able to convey to you how he did those things? Did he teach you what to do, and have you been able to apply what you were taught effectively?

I am interested. If I had the free time from work, I'd check out a seminar for sure. Folks I know and respect are saying good things about the folks teaching these seminars, but are not saying that they have taken useful stuff out of the seminars and applying the techniques in their own practice. So I am not fully sold on the idea yet. Can you provide anything that would tip the balance?

Good questions. I don't want to speak out of place, but he did provide us with specific exercises to develop these "abilities". We are in the process of joining the Ginjukai as a study group (consisting of both Aikikai and Dentokan members) to try and further develop these skills under Mr. Popkin's guidance.

While I most certainly won't claim to have developed any "aiki" skills after a mere two days or introduction/practice I find myself at a place where:

1. I know it isn't BS
2. It can be clearly applied to my Jujutsu waza (or more accurately my waza applied to it)
3. My waza will always be severely lacking without it

As I mentioned before I was completely skeptical of the whole IP/IS argument. I expected Mr. Popkin to simply have polished, excellent Jujutsu. It was much more than that. I think the entire weekend he only showed us one kata from Daitoryu. As much as I hate to say this, it has to be felt.

Interestingly I felt more correlation between what Mr. Popkin does and my Iai than I do with my current Jujutsu practice.

Krystal Locke
10-24-2012, 01:07 PM
That's because it can't be done. :D

Not that there won't be things that you can immediately add on, but basically speaking, this stuff is not an add-on. It's not some extra tricks and twists that you can add on to your regular training and go along on your way.

What we're talking about is a fundamental change in the way that you use and condition your body - that change affects everything else and, eventually, is expressed in the technique (it does take some time).

So...rather than doing an "Aiki technique", you do Aiki and the technique expresses that quality of your body (and mind). If that makes sense...

Best thing is to go try it out! Alan Beebe can't be too far from you, and Dan gets down there.

Best,

Chris

I am not looking for add-ons to my technique. I have twenty shitty tricks to make my uke move or hurt more, and I am looking to rid my aikido of those tricks in favor of clean, effective technique. I see what you're saying, move the body differently, ingrain different internal responses to stimulus, and the techniques will naturally change, and you believe they will be more effective and flow more naturally from the stimulus. I am way alright with that. I'd like to learn more about that.

But at the end of the day, yes I am looking to learn that to improve my aikido, in the sense that I am making something that is me and mine, and I will use it in my life, and my expression of my physicality, my way through life with energy that works well. Not as an add-on, but as a change in foundation. And to impress the hot chicks in my aikido class. And beer.

Yes, It Has To Be Felt. When several of my friends are telling me something is the goods, and I read other folks saying they're having good results, I am curious, and want a look. I'm still going to be a skeptic, the metaphors better just be metaphors and be useful metaphors, and I had better feel a quantitative as well as qualitative difference. But I will give it a look. Thanks for avoiding any hucksterism or condescension.

Richard Stevens
10-24-2012, 02:21 PM
I am not looking for add-ons to my technique. I have twenty shitty tricks to make my uke move or hurt more, and I am looking to rid my aikido of those tricks in favor of clean, effective technique. I see what you're saying, move the body differently, ingrain different internal responses to stimulus, and the techniques will naturally change, and you believe they will be more effective and flow more naturally from the stimulus. I am way alright with that. I'd like to learn more about that.

But at the end of the day, yes I am looking to learn that to improve my aikido, in the sense that I am making something that is me and mine, and I will use it in my life, and my expression of my physicality, my way through life with energy that works well. Not as an add-on, but as a change in foundation. And to impress the hot chicks in my aikido class. And beer.

Yes, It Has To Be Felt. When several of my friends are telling me something is the goods, and I read other folks saying they're having good results, I am curious, and want a look. I'm still going to be a skeptic, the metaphors better just be metaphors and be useful metaphors, and I had better feel a quantitative as well as qualitative difference. But I will give it a look. Thanks for avoiding any hucksterism or condescension.

That is what I got from the experience. What I am doing have to change fundamentally. It was almost a feeling of f*** I have to start all over again. I know all this waza, but I don't have what should be at the core of it all.

Marc Abrams
10-24-2012, 02:28 PM
That is what I got from the experience. What I am doing have to change fundamentally. It was almost a feeling of f*** I have to start all over again. I know all this waza, but I don't have what should be at the core of it all.

Richard:

I have been immediately incorporating everything I learn when I am with Dan back into the Aikido. The fit and quickness of the changes are particularly striking. Of course, it helps that I end up going "OH SH*T, my teacher has been putting this in front of me and I have been too blind, stubborn and stupid to get it....."

good luck!

marc abrams

phitruong
10-24-2012, 02:50 PM
That is what I got from the experience. What I am doing have to change fundamentally. It was almost a feeling of f*** I have to start all over again. I know all this waza, but I don't have what should be at the core of it all.

well you can take a few approaches.
1. denounce that the IP/IS folks brainwashed you, and they are evil-spawn, and you can go back to do what you do as before. This is the easiest thing to do. i'd do it in a heart beat. they are evil, always talking about partying and drinking and so on! :)
2. tell folks that you already doing it, so you don't have to change anything you have done so far. this also is pretty easy to do, as long as, you stay out of seminars or encounter with those IP/IS folks.
3. tell folks that it's not the aiki of aikido of the old guy so you shouldn't look at it, at all. then go back to do what you do before. also, very easy to do.
4. work your ass off to rewire your body and cursing these IP/IS folks every second of your practice for screwing with your head, then in between breaks, curse them some more. those damn bastards shown you stuffs that messed up your previous experiences. later on, you screw with other noob and have them curse at you for fun. :)

Diana Frese
10-24-2012, 03:05 PM
Hi Marc, not to be nosy, but is that Imaizumi Sensei? It figures. He probably has insight into all those "stuffs" as Phi calls them. Don't put yourself down, you did learn something for you to be able to appreciate these "stuffs"

Phi has taken over my brain, we will just have to try to get to a seminar and find out what all this is about.

Richard, thanks for the testimonial. It's first hand accounts that make old doggies like me curious to maybe find out about new tricks that we might learn if we can manage to get there:)

Diana Frese
10-24-2012, 03:08 PM
Oops I better re read the other posts. Krystal says it's not "shifty tricks" so I should have used other words. Anyway, interesting thread. Thanks for the personal accounts!

Howard Popkin
10-24-2012, 03:09 PM
So, it was aikido, but better? You mention his connection with the ground, and ability to easily perform techniques against profoundly resistant partners. Can you go into more detail?

Most importantly, was he able to convey to you how he did those things? Did he teach you what to do, and have you been able to apply what you were taught effectively?



Hi,

I'm good, but you do realize this was just one weekend. They do have to do some practice with these things :)

I'm in Oregon in June. Contact Dan Penrod at sensei@budodojo.com.

Best wishes,

Howard

Diana Frese
10-24-2012, 03:26 PM
Wow. Long Island. And Marc's at Bedford Hills, Westchester. Places only around an hour or so away. And a former student of mine lives in Nassau County. She studied briefly with Imaizumi Sensei while working at an office in Manhattan. Maybe finally I will get to see what these "stuffs" are. Oh by the way, I was reading with my "outdoor" glasses. I guess Krystal was not saying "shifty" about being dissatisfied with some former techniques....

Rob Watson
10-24-2012, 03:33 PM
have you been able to apply what you were taught effectively?

but are not saying that they have taken useful stuff out of the seminars and applying the techniques in their own practice.

Took me about 2 years off and on trying to do some of the conditioning drills right. Incremental improvements along the way. Keeps getting better and better. Regular hands on time with someone who knows what's up will only help.

People are starting to notice a difference in my 'feeling'.

Been to 3x Dan seminars ... trying to suck less.

Howard Popkin
10-24-2012, 03:35 PM
Diana,

516-489-1278

Would even come to your dojo :)

Howard

Diana Frese
10-24-2012, 04:25 PM
Oh wow, thanks, that would be so great.... if we all knew Time Travel! Dojo was 29 years ago, and then after that, a few months in an art loft in 88-89. But I will try to get to Nassau County to my friend's house and from there to your dojo. I will keep your number and hope we can go there within the next few months. I know she and I will enjoy it and learn a lot.

robin_jet_alt
10-24-2012, 08:39 PM
None of you guys are coming to Tasmania, are you?

Didn't think so.... :(

Howard Popkin
10-24-2012, 10:32 PM
I have family in Australia, lets talk :-)
Popkinbrogna@yahoo.com

Best wishes,

Howard

John Ianus
10-25-2012, 12:03 AM
This conversation has piqued my curiosity but what does IP/IS stand for?

woudew
10-25-2012, 03:52 AM
This conversation has piqued my curiosity but what does IP/IS stand for?
Internal Power / Internal Strenght

phitruong
10-25-2012, 07:15 AM
None of you guys are coming to Tasmania, are you?

Didn't think so.... :(

don't think so. too many devils there. :D

*sorry, couldn't help myself. i will now aiki myself a couple of time to atone for my sins*

phitruong
10-25-2012, 07:28 AM
Phi has taken over my brain, we will just have to try to get to a seminar and find out what all this is about.



hey! i don't do the brain stuffs. i only had the pig brain with some picante sause one time, and it was disgusting. i had to go for 2 and 3 helpings (there weren't much left after that) in order to make sure it was disgusting! ya, moi no do brain stuffs! body snatching on the other hand (the other other one) i am pretty good at. just look at Howie, he, in actuality, is Mini-Phi. :D

*thank god i am way in the boon dock and nowhere near howie*

robin_jet_alt
10-25-2012, 07:33 AM
don't think so. too many devils there. :D



Think of all the natural aiki we have to develop in order to fight them off though ;)

Richard Stevens
10-25-2012, 07:36 AM
Tasmania + Targa = Yes!

Krystal Locke
10-25-2012, 10:20 AM
Wow. Long Island. And Marc's at Bedford Hills, Westchester. Places only around an hour or so away. And a former student of mine lives in Nassau County. She studied briefly with Imaizumi Sensei while working at an office in Manhattan. Maybe finally I will get to see what these "stuffs" are. Oh by the way, I was reading with my "outdoor" glasses. I guess Krystal was not saying "shifty" about being dissatisfied with some former techniques....

What I was saying is that I know a fair number of "tricks" designed to add discomfort to techniques in order to make my ukes move or hurt more. Clipping thumbs, finding pressure points, crossing their fingers, etc. I want to move away from those tricks into a better, safer foundation for my technique. I want my aikido to work because I make a shape with my body that my uke cannot help but fall into and be controlled. I want folks to move around me because they feel like it is the way they want to go, not because they feel pain or fear.

I've learned how to fight and hurt, now I want to go beyond that back to not fighting and not hurting.

Rob Watson
10-25-2012, 11:30 AM
This conversation has piqued my curiosity but what does IP/IS stand for?

"How to be better than Osensei in 10,000 easy steps" or "utter waste of time propagated by deluded kool-aide gulping wannabes". Not that there is anything wrong with gulping kool-aide.

ChrisMoses
10-25-2012, 03:38 PM
What I was saying is that I know a fair number of "tricks" designed to add discomfort to techniques in order to make my ukes move or hurt more. Clipping thumbs, finding pressure points, crossing their fingers, etc. I want to move away from those tricks into a better, safer foundation for my technique. I want my aikido to work because I make a shape with my body that my uke cannot help but fall into and be controlled. I want folks to move around me because they feel like it is the way they want to go, not because they feel pain or fear.

I've learned how to fight and hurt, now I want to go beyond that back to not fighting and not hurting.

These aren't tricks. I use almost none of the pain compliance tricks. I know a bunch, I don't like them, they work best in the dojo. As Big Tony Alvarez once said (of a finger lock technique), "I'd lose that finger to kill you..." :freaky:

This stuff will (or can) help with the goal that you state of moving away from the dojo-tricks.

Keith Larman
10-25-2012, 04:06 PM
These aren't tricks. I use almost none of the pain compliance tricks. I know a bunch, I don't like them, they work best in the dojo. As Big Tony Alvarez once said (of a finger lock technique), "I'd lose that finger to kill you..." :freaky:

This stuff will (or can) help with the goal that you state of moving away from the dojo-tricks.

I get nervous just reading that... Who in their right mind is trying *anything* on Tony...

I've been hit very hard in training, broken stuff, cracked open my lip pretty bad once. Kept right on doing what I was doing until the other guy was down. It hurt later. At the time of the pain it just pissed me off... Depends on the personality (or psychological pathology) of the person on the receiving end... :) As someone told me once, pain compliance is the wrong way to view it. Hurting some people will only make them mad. Structurally injuring, however... And a finger ain't what I'm talkin' about...

DH
10-25-2012, 05:19 PM
I get nervous just reading that... Who in their right mind is trying *anything* on Tony...

I've been hit very hard in training, broken stuff, cracked open my lip pretty bad once. Kept right on doing what I was doing until the other guy was down. It hurt later. At the time of the pain it just pissed me off... Depends on the personality (or psychological pathology) of the person on the receiving end... :) As someone told me once, pain compliance is the wrong way to view it. Hurting some people will only make them mad. Structurally injuring, however... And a finger ain't what I'm talkin' about...
Yup. NO INCH punches!!
And non-telegraphing kicks and throws

Keith Larman
10-26-2012, 08:27 AM
Yup. NO INCH punches!!
And non-telegraphing kicks and throws

Yeah. I was in a randori fairly recently and a really strong, aggressive guy got fairly attached to me. I managed to "pulse" him off through his contact without him realizing it was coming. Confused the hell out of him. He later asked me what I did and to be honest I really couldn't explain it. It just kind of manifested itself real-time. Oddly enough it really wasn't until later when the guy asked that I even realized I had done it.

Training matters... Kind of a "duh" comment, eh...

In my experience most people who've never been in a fight are flustered by the first contact. Easy to use atemi, even crappy atemi, on those people. Some, however, know that getting hit just comes with the territory and don't worry much about crappy contact. Yeah, it leaves a mark but you'll survive and sometimes you'll take that to get in closer to do more damage, hence comments like Tony's. I told a friend who I was discussing this with to go on youtube and find some videos of Bas Rutten doing pancrase. Kind of like intentionally walking in to a wood chipper... Painful. And when he delivers a liver shot just with a palm strike, for instance, they go down. Good form, tons of power, incredible speed. And that's something that you just cannot ignore. Shut down time.

Yes, I love my heavy bag... Use it daily.

ashe
10-26-2012, 10:43 AM
That's because it can't be done. :D

Not that there won't be things that you can immediately add on, but basically speaking, this stuff is not an add-on. It's not some extra tricks and twists that you can add on to your regular training and go along on your way.

What we're talking about is a fundamental change in the way that you use and condition your body - that change affects everything else and, eventually, is expressed in the technique (it does take some time).

So...rather than doing an "Aiki technique", you do Aiki and the technique expresses that quality of your body (and mind). If that makes sense...


good way to say it. as Sifu says "stick to the principle, and the movement (application) will form around the principle".

for instance, when you stick to the principles of "IP/IS", and then recognize that all movement is merely inside out, or outside in, you can flow easily into many different kinds of 'techniques'. (http://youtu.be/yAMaZ-fuEas)

ChrisMoses
10-26-2012, 12:56 PM
I get nervous just reading that... Who in their right mind is trying *anything* on Tony...


Story was paraphrased from Toby. ;) He also thought it was probably a bad idea. :D

Diana Frese
10-26-2012, 01:08 PM
Belated thanks to Krystal for the reply (post number 44) Great explanation!

Michael Varin
10-26-2012, 11:15 PM
I am not addressing the OP or even the original topic, but a number of posts in this thread demonstrate the severe disconnect from the realities of fighting and physical conflict that training in the martial arts so often encourages.

yugen
10-27-2012, 10:03 AM
I am not addressing the OP or even the original topic, but a number of posts in this thread demonstrate the severe disconnect from the realities of fighting and physical conflict that training in the martial arts so often encourages.

such as? It seems you should state the content of the posts you disagree with (probably in a new thread since you say it doesn't have anything to do with the OP) otherwise it appears you're trolling.

Lorel Latorilla
10-29-2012, 04:36 AM
I am not addressing the OP or even the original topic, but a number of posts in this thread demonstrate the severe disconnect from the realities of fighting and physical conflict that training in the martial arts so often encourages.

LOL! Troll hating.

DH
10-29-2012, 04:35 PM
I am not addressing the OP or even the original topic, but a number of posts in this thread demonstrate the severe disconnect from the realities of fighting and physical conflict that training in the martial arts so often encourages.
No they don't, and there is enough of a percentage of people training this who can kick ass ...for real...and have watched some pretty stressful sparring in open rooms that they....like me ....don't really care anymore about this amateurish baiting.
If you can fight...and I mean seriously take and deliver a beating ....then I respect that. So can dozens of guys who are training this who deserve the same respect in kind.
You......Michael ...simply have no idea what so ever of the group of people you are addressing.
This type of drive by shooting....post is beneath you.
Dan

DH
10-29-2012, 05:00 PM
I think the inspiring part is that people, are going to certain people to learn this here and there, and the people THEY are going to????? All felt the same way when they encountered it. :D
It places the real value then upon the work, instead of individuals. It also validates the the fact that it was this work, that kept producing unusual martial artists.That it was the tie that binds us all.
As Bill Gleason said to me once, and I have heard its echo round the world from others.
"This is what I went to Japan to find and never did!"
Dan

ashe
10-29-2012, 08:04 PM
"This is what I went to Japan to find and never did!"

that's doesn't surprise me that he would say that given the old "steal my art" mindset. it's not likely that prior to very recent history, more than 6-12 guys at any one time (globally) had a very deep skill level.

phitruong
10-30-2012, 11:22 AM
that's doesn't surprise me that he would say that given the old "steal my art" mindset. it's not likely that prior to very recent history, more than 6-12 guys at any one time (globally) had a very deep skill level.

hey, i am number 13th! you know, you fajin one grandmaster in the nuts and they voted you down to number 13th. that's politics for ya! :)

Lee Salzman
10-30-2012, 01:05 PM
hey, i am number 13th! you know, you fajin one grandmaster in the nuts and they voted you down to number 13th. that's politics for ya! :)

If you already know the secret nutcracker fajin, then why would you need to go to the grandmaster to learn it? And that would, by default, make you at least one of the 12 guys who know it, so you couldn't be voted down to 13th? It's a paradox, man...