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graham christian
10-10-2012, 06:10 AM
Promotion and advertising. It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising in alignment unfortunately with modern ways of doing things.

The message given by such advertising is that you are missing out, that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than.

Modern Aiki?

Promotion......ahh, gone are the days so it seems where one just promotes what he is doing, happy for those who want to do likewise and happy for those who don't.

Minds led this way and that way by the fear of missing out, shame really.

As I see it it's just unnecessary fodder for the insecure. Funny thing is it's not even needed.

Peace.G.

Mary Eastland
10-10-2012, 06:42 AM
Graham. The days are not gone. Discussion can happen. When Resistance is felt...we relax more and keep doing what we do. Sometimes one needs to take a break and remember what is real.

There is an ignore button.

What we resist against gets stronger. Ignored discussion has to talk to itself.

graham christian
10-10-2012, 07:17 AM
Agreed Mary. It's not completely gone. I don't need an ignore button in order to ignore though and actually find no need to ignore but rather to observe.

Such above is my observation. Resistance? Nah.....quite the opposite. Calmly viewing what is.

Those of like minds can and do indeed discuss amongst themselves as you say and that's all good and of itself can be interesting, funny, educational or whatever but when it enters that which I describe it's self defeating. Through defeating ones self one builds the need to prove to others.

Masakatsu and agatsu is an interesting subject wouldn't you say?

Peace.G.

MM
10-10-2012, 07:26 AM
Promotion and advertising. It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising in alignment unfortunately with modern ways of doing things.

The message given by such advertising is that you are missing out, that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than.

Modern Aiki?

Promotion......ahh, gone are the days so it seems where one just promotes what he is doing, happy for those who want to do likewise and happy for those who don't.

Minds led this way and that way by the fear of missing out, shame really.

As I see it it's just unnecessary fodder for the insecure. Funny thing is it's not even needed.

Peace.G.

Would you please define what you mean by " talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising"? Please point to posts or people.

Would you please define "that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than"? Please point to people or posts. Especially since you've done this kind of passive aggressive insulting before and it's pointed back to me. And now, your post following on my recent posting about what I thought was "wrong" seems very coincidental.

Who are you calling "insecure"?

Your whole post seems like a passive aggressive insult to people here. So, would you mind explaining exactly, specifically, what you meant? Your whole post is about denigrating people who you think are out advertising, rather than talking about history, training, aikido, techniques, etc. Please clarify why that is so.

graham christian
10-10-2012, 08:02 AM
Would you please define what you mean by " talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising"? Please point to posts or people.

Would you please define "that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than"? Please point to people or posts. Especially since you've done this kind of passive aggressive insulting before and it's pointed back to me. And now, your post following on my recent posting about what I thought was "wrong" seems very coincidental.

Who are you calling "insecure"?

Your whole post seems like a passive aggressive insult to people here. So, would you mind explaining exactly, specifically, what you meant? Your whole post is about denigrating people who you think are out advertising, rather than talking about history, training, aikido, techniques, etc. Please clarify why that is so.

Point out posts and people? No I will not. I point out a concept and a reality. To understand it one would merely have to look at modern advertising and it's message.

Whether you say something is right or wrong is of no concern to me thank you.

I don't denigrate people thank you.

So back to topic. If you don't understand then study the ways and psychology of modern advertising.

Are you missing out on anything Aikido? Do you think others are? Now that would be more to the point.

Peace.G.

aiki-jujutsuka
10-10-2012, 08:48 AM
sorry I am completely lost! Are you saying modern Aikido is being denigrated by the way it is being taught? Are you referring to Aikido literature or dvds? Are you saying people practice Aikido for the wrong reasons and have a very superficial view of or appreciation for Aikido?

MM
10-10-2012, 08:52 AM
Point out posts and people? No I will not. I point out a concept and a reality. To understand it one would merely have to look at modern advertising and it's message.


Modern advertising is all over the place. There is no congruent, fixed "thing" labelled "modern advertising". So again, please detail out what you mean in relation to "a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising". You stated "a lot". Please show us the threads, posts, people who are doing all this degrading into advertising.


Whether you say something is right or wrong is of no concern to me thank you.

I don't denigrate people thank you.


Really? Let's quote your words, "Minds led this way and that way by the fear of missing out, shame really. As I see it it's just unnecessary fodder for the insecure." You just denigrated people by calling some people insecure because of the fear of missing out. Instead of addressing a topic, you addressed people's personalities, calling them insecure, attacking their character.


So back to topic. If you don't understand then study the ways and psychology of modern advertising.

Are you missing out on anything Aikido? Do you think others are? Now that would be more to the point.

Peace.G.

Yes, back to topic. You stated that people are degrading because they are talking about advertising or promoting aikido in an unhealthy manner. So, please give us the threads, posts, people where this is happening. If you can't, then please apologize to the aikido community for your denigrating them into insecure salespeople who are driven by fear. If you won't, then perhaps Jun can lock and/or delete this thread as I see no real purpose for it except to continue your passive aggressive attacks.

Janet Rosen
10-10-2012, 10:10 AM
..perhaps Jun can lock and/or delete this thread as I see no real purpose for it except to continue your passive aggressive attacks.

Agreed. OP is not seeking discussion; it is personality to personality pot-stirring and should at very least be moved to "open discussions" forum.

Conrad Gus
10-10-2012, 11:46 AM
Agreed. OP is not seeking discussion; it is personality to personality pot-stirring and should at very least be moved to "open discussions" forum.

I think OP has a point, and not necessarily a personal one.

Modern culture is very advertising-driven, and we are conditioned to feel like we need to acquire something that we don't have in order to feel complete or happy. It is easy to get sucked into this feeling with aikido (or anything) and be constantly searching outside ourselves to find fulfillment, rather than just relaxing and doing the daily work it takes to realize peace, stillness, effective technique, or whatever it is our goals in aikido may be.

Of course if we have inadequate teaching or training methods, we won't get very far, so there is no shame in keeping our head up and connecting with those around us so we don't fall into a rut or develop bad habits. We can help each other on the way.

Also, I think it does not denigrate our aikido to be excited about it and want to share it with others. If someone encounters a fantastic new (to them) training method and wants to share it enthusiastically, I don't have a problem with it. That's how I choose to interpret those who are really into the aiki thing these days and want other people to know about it.

It might not be my cup of tea, but we don't have to fight about it. Nor do I have to have the "fear of missing out". I still believe there are many ways up the mountain, and no one way that is right for everybody.

Peace,

Conrad

akiy
10-10-2012, 11:55 AM
Hi Graham,

I agree with others -- if you wish to discuss this further, please be prepared to share specific instances of the behavior that you are pointing out.

Otherwise, the discussion can only be vague and without common understanding of the exact "thing" you're talking about -- neither of which I would classify as contributing positively to the discussion topic.

Thanks,

-- Jun

akiy
10-10-2012, 11:56 AM
PS: Please watch your tone, folks.

-- Jun

graham christian
10-10-2012, 12:05 PM
Modern advertising is all over the place. There is no congruent, fixed "thing" labelled "modern advertising". So again, please detail out what you mean in relation to "a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising". You stated "a lot". Please show us the threads, posts, people who are doing all this degrading into advertising.

Really? Let's quote your words, "Minds led this way and that way by the fear of missing out, shame really. As I see it it's just unnecessary fodder for the insecure." You just denigrated people by calling some people insecure because of the fear of missing out. Instead of addressing a topic, you addressed people's personalities, calling them insecure, attacking their character.

Yes, back to topic. You stated that people are degrading because they are talking about advertising or promoting aikido in an unhealthy manner. So, please give us the threads, posts, people where this is happening. If you can't, then please apologize to the aikido community for your denigrating them into insecure salespeople who are driven by fear. If you won't, then perhaps Jun can lock and/or delete this thread as I see no real purpose for it except to continue your passive aggressive attacks.

You are right, modern advertising is all over the place.

Does truth denigrate people? Modern advertising does prey on peoples fears and insecurity. You act like you don't know this.

That is the topic. Thus presenting something in a way that says this is superior, you need this, you're missing out if you don't have this correlates quite snugly with advertising.

If you believe that's normal and right then just say that you agree with that way of presenting things.

It is not people or personalities of which I speak it is of presentation.

It is also not a matter of if anyone does this but rather a matter of when we do this.

I don't need to insult yours or anyones charachter or use words like 'you are saying this or that' for I have no beef with charachter or individual. Now and again I may challenge ideas, beliefs, presentation.

In the o/p I state quite clearly one can promote what they do and be happy with what they do and also happy with what others do.

I live by this rule, do you?

If I get caught up in some slanging match or even boast how great my Aikido is and therefor others are missing out then I am at that moment becoming like a pressure salesman. Presentation my friend. The question is not if? or who? but when?

Peace.G.

graham christian
10-10-2012, 12:25 PM
Hi Graham,

I agree with others -- if you wish to discuss this further, please be prepared to share specific instances of the behavior that you are pointing out.

Otherwise, the discussion can only be vague and without common understanding of the exact "thing" you're talking about -- neither of which I would classify as contributing positively to the discussion topic.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Hi Jun. Maybe the above answer clarifies or maybe it doesn't. The reason I don't is because it's not personal, it's not aimed at a particular person. If I look over posts and point out when this happens I'm sure I will then be accused of personal attack.

When those who wish to debate the matter can agree that it is not to do with charachter or personage and can accept how we as human beings can get over exuberant and present things in the way I describe then perhaps we can review our own posts to see when we do this.

Without this first step then pointing out who said what is off topic as far as I can see and counter productive.

Of course, on the other hand, if you see through your experience that this will not happen and will lead nowhere then it will be only right for you to end the thread. In this respect I bow to your wisdom.

Peace.G.

graham christian
10-10-2012, 12:38 PM
I think OP has a point, and not necessarily a personal one.

Modern culture is very advertising-driven, and we are conditioned to feel like we need to acquire something that we don't have in order to feel complete or happy. It is easy to get sucked into this feeling with aikido (or anything) and be constantly searching outside ourselves to find fulfillment, rather than just relaxing and doing the daily work it takes to realize peace, stillness, effective technique, or whatever it is our goals in aikido may be.

Of course if we have inadequate teaching or training methods, we won't get very far, so there is no shame in keeping our head up and connecting with those around us so we don't fall into a rut or develop bad habits. We can help each other on the way.

Also, I think it does not denigrate our aikido to be excited about it and want to share it with others. If someone encounters a fantastic new (to them) training method and wants to share it enthusiastically, I don't have a problem with it. That's how I choose to interpret those who are really into the aiki thing these days and want other people to know about it.

It might not be my cup of tea, but we don't have to fight about it. Nor do I have to have the "fear of missing out". I still believe there are many ways up the mountain, and no one way that is right for everybody.

Peace,

Conrad

Thank you. A man who is happy with what he does and happy hearing about what others do.

Peace.G.

Conrad Gus
10-10-2012, 12:43 PM
Hi Jun. Maybe the above answer clarifies or maybe it doesn't. The reason I don't is because it's not personal, it's not aimed at a particular person. If I look over posts and point out when this happens I'm sure I will then be accused of personal attack.

When those who wish to debate the matter can agree that it is not to do with charachter or personage and can accept how we as human beings can get over exuberant and present things in the way I describe then perhaps we can review our own posts to see when we do this.

Without this first step then pointing out who said what is off topic as far as I can see and counter productive.

Of course, on the other hand, if you see through your experience that this will not happen and will lead nowhere then it will be only right for you to end the thread. In this respect I bow to your wisdom.

Peace.G.

I think there was something valuable in the original post. Rather than focussing on being critical of people who promote themselves, maybe you could discuss how to not feel threatened by someone else's self-promotion or difference of opinion? If the thought is re-framed in terms of one's own feelings and reactions rather than externally, it will be less likely to be perceived as an attack. This thread is actually an interesting example of how we (as human beings) manage to suck each other into conflict. It is a skill to be able to resist getting sucked into the conflict (one of the core skills of aikido, IMHO).

If you like, you could treat this thread as a first draft, and start a new thread with a different tone - one that makes a point without pushing buttons (intentionally or unintentionally). Forgive me if I am misunderstanding your original point but I think it's worth a do-over if you are still inclined.

akiy
10-10-2012, 12:50 PM
The reason I don't is because it's not personal, it's not aimed at a particular person. If I look over posts and point out when this happens I'm sure I will then be accused of personal attack.
If you can truly stand behind what you say that what you are bringing up is not a personal matter and, rather, that you are pointing out a behavior that you see in the manner of communication here on AikiWeb, I would welcome that kind of discussion and would appreciate having specifics being discussed. I would hope that others would be able to appreciate these kinds of specific, non-personal behaviors being brought up as well.

So, again -- if you wish to discuss this further, please be prepared to share specific instances of the behavior that you are pointing out.

-- Jun

Gary David
10-10-2012, 01:18 PM
Folks
It seems to me that the only discussion here (on Aikiweb) is when everyone is comfortable with the parameters of the discussion..........otherwise it is called something else. Sort of makes me think what the discussion was like way back when everyone agreed the world was flat...discuss away about flat world concepts.... The moment round world was brought up it turned into something else......with the flat worlders yelling the most at the few round worlders. You know if a flat world works for you that is fine, but keep in mind that if you sail to far west (or east) you really won't drop off the edge..... Oh, and by the way, the earth revolves around the sun.....

Gary

Conrad Gus
10-10-2012, 01:34 PM
Folks
It seems to me that the only discussion here (on Aikiweb) is when everyone is comfortable with the parameters of the discussion..........otherwise it is called something else. Sort of makes me think what the discussion was like way back when everyone agreed the world was flat...discuss away about flat world concepts.... The moment round world was brought up it turned into something else......with the flat worlders yelling the most at the few round worlders. You know if a flat world works for you that is fine, but keep in mind that if you sail to far west (or east) you really won't drop off the edge..... Oh, and by the way, the earth revolves around the sun.....

Gary

I think the community is fine with disagreement, and that there is a fairly strong consensus that personal sniping ruins the forums for everyone.

Now what's this about the earth revolving around the sun? RECANT I SAY!

graham christian
10-10-2012, 01:39 PM
I think there was something valuable in the original post. Rather than focussing on being critical of people who promote themselves, maybe you could discuss how to not feel threatened by someone else's self-promotion or difference of opinion? If the thought is re-framed in terms of one's own feelings and reactions rather than externally, it will be less likely to be perceived as an attack. This thread is actually an interesting example of how we (as human beings) manage to suck each other into conflict. It is a skill to be able to resist getting sucked into the conflict (one of the core skills of aikido, IMHO).

If you like, you could treat this thread as a first draft, and start a new thread with a different tone - one that makes a point without pushing buttons (intentionally or unintentionally). Forgive me if I am misunderstanding your original point but I think it's worth a do-over if you are still inclined.

Ha, ha, maybe you are right. Maybe I am guilty of presenting it in an overexuberant way myself.

To me it's a clear concept and thus presenting things from that clarity all together leads to misinterpretation. However, on review if I were to start a new thread it would probably have to be about five new threads for that one concept.

Otherwise I could always use the word I instead.

Broken down the o/p subject is this 1) Promoting what you do only which means putting it there and sharing. 2) Examining the principles behind modern advertising and seeing how they are similar principles to pressure selling. 3) Seeing and understanding those principles finding out where we operate from the same principles, mostly unwittingly. 4) Becoming aware of just how often we do and just how unnecessary it actually is.

Now the point is it's not to do with selling or being a salesman literally so can you tell me an example of when you have operated from such principles 'like' a salesman? I'll give you an example:

I boast about something. At such time I am advertising in said arrogant manner. I am at that time showing the traits described in the o/p.

I say how my Aikido is the Real Aikido or the best Aikido or similar. I am now entering into the same realm of what a pressure salesman does for he too has it, but for him as a job, to prove his product is the best or the real deal. Thus I am acting like a salesman.

Imagine applying this to politics ha, ha. You could end up with a super salesman prime minister or president......ha, ha. Perish the thought.

Peace.G.

MM
10-10-2012, 02:03 PM
Ha, ha, maybe you are right. Maybe I am guilty of presenting it in an overexuberant way myself.

To me it's a clear concept and thus presenting things from that clarity all together leads to misinterpretation. However, on review if I were to start a new thread it would probably have to be about five new threads for that one concept.

Otherwise I could always use the word I instead.

Broken down the o/p subject is this 1) Promoting what you do only which means putting it there and sharing. 2) Examining the principles behind modern advertising and seeing how they are similar principles to pressure selling. 3) Seeing and understanding those principles finding out where we operate from the same principles, mostly unwittingly. 4) Becoming aware of just how often we do and just how unnecessary it actually is.

Now the point is it's not to do with selling or being a salesman literally so can you tell me an example of when you have operated from such principles 'like' a salesman? I'll give you an example:

I boast about something. At such time I am advertising in said arrogant manner. I am at that time showing the traits described in the o/p.

I say how my Aikido is the Real Aikido or the best Aikido or similar. I am now entering into the same realm of what a pressure salesman does for he too has it, but for him as a job, to prove his product is the best or the real deal. Thus I am acting like a salesman.

Imagine applying this to politics ha, ha. You could end up with a super salesman prime minister or president......ha, ha. Perish the thought.

Peace.G.

Originally, you stated, "It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising". I asked for you to give specific examples of exactly where you see "a lot".

Originally, you stated, "The message given by such advertising is that you are missing out, that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than". I would like to know specific examples of where you've seen such advertising.

Originally, you stated, "Minds led this way and that way by the fear of missing out, shame really. As I see it it's just unnecessary fodder for the insecure." I would like to know specific examples of where this is happening, as you've stated it happens "a lot".

Ewen Ebsworth posted questions that were left unanswered. Conrad Gustafson brought up good points about modern advertising and training. But it seemed to me that both posts plus Janet's did not look favorably on the actual original post. IMO, everything after your first post has been damage control because you were called on your passive aggressive denigrating post.

Back to topic. You stated that people are degrading because they are talking about advertising or promoting aikido in an unhealthy manner. So, please give us the threads, posts, people where this is happening. If you can't, then please apologize to the aikido community for your denigrating them as insecure salespeople who are driven by fear.

As to modern advertising and aikido, I think Conrad Gustafson's post #9 was a great start but should be moved to a proper thread of its own.

Conrad Gus
10-10-2012, 02:14 PM
Ha, ha, maybe you are right. Maybe I am guilty of presenting it in an overexuberant way myself.

To me it's a clear concept and thus presenting things from that clarity all together leads to misinterpretation. However, on review if I were to start a new thread it would probably have to be about five new threads for that one concept.

Otherwise I could always use the word I instead.

Broken down the o/p subject is this 1) Promoting what you do only which means putting it there and sharing. 2) Examining the principles behind modern advertising and seeing how they are similar principles to pressure selling. 3) Seeing and understanding those principles finding out where we operate from the same principles, mostly unwittingly. 4) Becoming aware of just how often we do and just how unnecessary it actually is.

Now the point is it's not to do with selling or being a salesman literally so can you tell me an example of when you have operated from such principles 'like' a salesman? I'll give you an example:

I boast about something. At such time I am advertising in said arrogant manner. I am at that time showing the traits described in the o/p.

I say how my Aikido is the Real Aikido or the best Aikido or similar. I am now entering into the same realm of what a pressure salesman does for he too has it, but for him as a job, to prove his product is the best or the real deal. Thus I am acting like a salesman.

Imagine applying this to politics ha, ha. You could end up with a super salesman prime minister or president......ha, ha. Perish the thought.

Peace.G.

I basically agree with you, but we have to realize that there are always going to be people that think certain aikido is fantastic and certain other aikido is worse than worthless. It's a legitimate opinion that a person might express without necessarily trying to "advertise" something.

Whether a person perceives an opinion as advertising or reacts to it as such is not under the control of the original opinion-expresser. If it really is opinion and one disagrees, express disagreement (or not) and move on.

Of course, it is also possible that the opinion is being expressed for the purposes of promotion, in which case it is up to the receiver to accept or reject the message (agree or disagree). If it really is advertising, decide whether you want what is advertised and move on.

We don't argue with the television when it tells us that a brand of noodles other than our favorite is "the best", but I do think that what you call "pressure selling" is counter-productive and annoying. It turns me off and seems kind of cheesy (unless it's for noodles, in which case cheesy is a good thing). :D

Conrad

graham christian
10-10-2012, 03:56 PM
I basically agree with you, but we have to realize that there are always going to be people that think certain aikido is fantastic and certain other aikido is worse than worthless. It's a legitimate opinion that a person might express without necessarily trying to "advertise" something.

Whether a person perceives an opinion as advertising or reacts to it as such is not under the control of the original opinion-expresser. If it really is opinion and one disagrees, express disagreement (or not) and move on.

Of course, it is also possible that the opinion is being expressed for the purposes of promotion, in which case it is up to the receiver to accept or reject the message (agree or disagree). If it really is advertising, decide whether you want what is advertised and move on.

We don't argue with the television when it tells us that a brand of noodles other than our favorite is "the best", but I do think that what you call "pressure selling" is counter-productive and annoying. It turns me off and seems kind of cheesy (unless it's for noodles, in which case cheesy is a good thing). :D

Conrad

Yes indeed but having an opinion that 'a' is useless may well be normal but saying it does not make it legitimate or reasonable does it? That particular example is neither 'advertising' nor 'selling as better or supreme' but it is blatantly rude and offensive wouldn't you say?

In my opinion it cannot actually be true either for what anyone says is useless is obviously useful to those who do it. When I call someones art useless I may not be 'selling' but what am I doing?

Looking at what we say and knowing when it's negative is the starting point.

By the way cheesy is what I would call that guy doing the gangnam style rapping and dancing.

Peace.G.

Conrad Gus
10-10-2012, 04:20 PM
Yes indeed but having an opinion that 'a' is useless may well be normal but saying it does not make it legitimate or reasonable does it? That particular example is neither 'advertising' nor 'selling as better or supreme' but it is blatantly rude and offensive wouldn't you say?

In my opinion it cannot actually be true either for what anyone says is useless is obviously useful to those who do it. When I call someones art useless I may not be 'selling' but what am I doing?

Looking at what we say and knowing when it's negative is the starting point.

By the way cheesy is what I would call that guy doing the gangnam style rapping and dancing.

Peace.G.

If someone expresses an opinion in a manner that is aggressive, rude, or offensive, I agree that there is nothing constructive about it and they should keep it to themselves or be ignored.

It is possible to express an opinion, even a negative one, in a respectful manner. I think it takes a certain amount of discipline, however, to do this. It also takes discipline to not take a criticism or a negative opinion personally.

Free (respectful) speech!

Cheers,

Conrad

Conrad Gus
10-10-2012, 04:28 PM
For the record, I think astrology is useless. It can even be harmful if people take it too seriously.

I can say that without worrying too much about the feelings of astrology-lovers, because I framed it as an opinion, and didn't bash astrology-lovers personally. No doubt many of them will be out there right now shaking their heads and feeling sorry for me in my ignorance.

Conrad

graham christian
10-10-2012, 04:31 PM
If someone expresses an opinion in a manner that is aggressive, rude, or offensive, I agree that there is nothing constructive about it and they should keep it to themselves or be ignored.

It is possible to express an opinion, even a negative one, in a respectful manner. I think it takes a certain amount of discipline, however, to do this. It also takes discipline to not take a criticism or a negative opinion personally.

Free (respectful) speech!

Cheers,

Conrad

Discipline indeed.;)

Peace.G.

David Orange
10-10-2012, 06:14 PM
Promotion and advertising. It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising in alignment unfortunately with modern ways of doing things.

The message given by such advertising is that you are missing out, that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than.

Modern Aiki?

Promotion.......

Or passive aggression?

The divide in modern aikido is between those who see it as a rather precise science with ancient roots and long-known methods; and those who believe that aikido is a very vague and general practice of moving circularly for some very unclear and rather dubious reasons.

Words

Those in the "science" cohort use Morihei Ueshiba's recorded words and exact translations to understand what he "talked about".

Those in the "general art" group simply supply their own definitions for very general translations of O Sensei's words so that talk of the kami of yin and yang simply become "gods" rather than principles and from that all kinds of idiosyncratic forms of semi-religious practices replace O Sensei's aikido.

Deeds

Those in the science cohort believe that the "unusual power" displayed by Morihei Ueshiba results from specific internal training methods described in correct translations of his words and that his "unusual power" can be replicated by those who follow his internal training methods. They believe that it is the quality of the body, developed through these methods, that causes the attacker to lose balance and control on contact with the aiki man's body, enabling the aiki man to generate techniques spontaneously to exploit the attacker's unbalance. And make no mistake, I've met women who can do this a lot better than I can.

Those in the "general art" group believe that Morihei Ueshiba was a very religious man whose words were never understood and never can be understood; that his "unusual power" was and remains inexplicable and unapproachable by anyone not so dedicated to his strange religion. They believe that any "body" of any type can produce aiki by moving in evasive circular movements tailored to the attacker's movement--that aiki depends on the attacker's movement rather than on the aiki man's internal organization and balance.

RESULTS OF EACH APPROACH

The scientific cohort develops internal skills along with fighting techniques and lives as Morihei Ueshiba did, welcoming others to test them. The scientific side believes that physical ability against serious physical force is the baseline of truth within aikido and all of budo. To this group, wearing a black belt implies serious interest in physical research with serious physical forces at play--in balanced and focused attacks and instant and unquestionably effective aikido technique.

The "general art" group believes that the black belt is symbolic of some vague idea of honor and commitment. In aikido, it also carries a patina of "spirituality" as general and intangible as the purpose of aikido itself. Any suggestion that one physically "test" his or her techniques or understanding of principles is perceived and denounced as "bullying" or "competition" and the response is generally to eject the offender from the dojo and/or engage in passive-aggressive denunciations.

THE BALANCE

Graham here has called the "scientific" cohort "modern aikido" though it goes directly to the roots of OLD aikido, while Graham clearly present something "new upon the earth" with his Golden Center videos.

Wearing a rasta hat with a hakama and calling traditionalists "modern aikido"....just...somehow...

It reminds me of Mitt Romney's verbal reversals, really.

Gassho.

David

gregstec
10-10-2012, 06:37 PM
Or passive aggression?

The divide in modern aikido is between those who see it as a rather precise science with ancient roots and long-known methods; and those who believe that aikido is a very vague and general practice of moving circularly for some very unclear and rather dubious reasons.

Words

Those in the "science" cohort use Morihei Ueshiba's recorded words and exact translations to understand what he "talked about".

Those in the "general art" group simply supply their own definitions for very general translations of O Sensei's words so that talk of the kami of yin and yang simply become "gods" rather than principles and from that all kinds of idiosyncratic forms of semi-religious practices replace O Sensei's aikido.

Deeds

Those in the science cohort believe that the "unusual power" displayed by Morihei Ueshiba results from specific internal training methods described in correct translations of his words and that his "unusual power" can be replicated by those who follow his internal training methods. They believe that it is the quality of the body, developed through these methods, that causes the attacker to lose balance and control on contact with the aiki man's body, enabling the aiki man to generate techniques spontaneously to exploit the attacker's unbalance. And make no mistake, I've met women who can do this a lot better than I can.

Those in the "general art" group believe that Morihei Ueshiba was a very religious man whose words were never understood and never can be understood; that his "unusual power" was and remains inexplicable and unapproachable by anyone not so dedicated to his strange religion. They believe that any "body" of any type can produce aiki by moving in evasive circular movements tailored to the attacker's movement--that aiki depends on the attacker's movement rather than on the aiki man's internal organization and balance.

RESULTS OF EACH APPROACH

The scientific cohort develops internal skills along with fighting techniques and lives as Morihei Ueshiba did, welcoming others to test them. The scientific side believes that physical ability against serious physical force is the baseline of truth within aikido and all of budo. To this group, wearing a black belt implies serious interest in physical research with serious physical forces at play--in balanced and focused attacks and instant and unquestionably effective aikido technique.

The "general art" group believes that the black belt is symbolic of some vague idea of honor and commitment. In aikido, it also carries a patina of "spirituality" as general and intangible as the purpose of aikido itself. Any suggestion that one physically "test" his or her techniques or understanding of principles is perceived and denounced as "bullying" or "competition" and the response is generally to eject the offender from the dojo and/or engage in passive-aggressive denunciations.

THE BALANCE

Graham here has called the "scientific" cohort "modern aikido" though it goes directly to the roots of OLD aikido, while Graham clearly present something "new upon the earth" with his Golden Center videos.

Wearing a rasta hat with a hakama and calling traditionalists "modern aikido"....just...somehow...

It reminds me of Mitt Romney's verbal reversals, really.

Gassho.

David

Gee, Dave, you were really doing good until you threw down the political card - as all sensible people know, politics is the bane of society and it is destined to eventually bring us to Armageddon :D

Greg

graham christian
10-10-2012, 06:52 PM
Or passive aggression?

The divide in modern aikido is between those who see it as a rather precise science with ancient roots and long-known methods; and those who believe that aikido is a very vague and general practice of moving circularly for some very unclear and rather dubious reasons.

Words

Those in the "science" cohort use Morihei Ueshiba's recorded words and exact translations to understand what he "talked about".

Those in the "general art" group simply supply their own definitions for very general translations of O Sensei's words so that talk of the kami of yin and yang simply become "gods" rather than principles and from that all kinds of idiosyncratic forms of semi-religious practices replace O Sensei's aikido.

Deeds

Those in the science cohort believe that the "unusual power" displayed by Morihei Ueshiba results from specific internal training methods described in correct translations of his words and that his "unusual power" can be replicated by those who follow his internal training methods. They believe that it is the quality of the body, developed through these methods, that causes the attacker to lose balance and control on contact with the aiki man's body, enabling the aiki man to generate techniques spontaneously to exploit the attacker's unbalance. And make no mistake, I've met women who can do this a lot better than I can.

Those in the "general art" group believe that Morihei Ueshiba was a very religious man whose words were never understood and never can be understood; that his "unusual power" was and remains inexplicable and unapproachable by anyone not so dedicated to his strange religion. They believe that any "body" of any type can produce aiki by moving in evasive circular movements tailored to the attacker's movement--that aiki depends on the attacker's movement rather than on the aiki man's internal organization and balance.

RESULTS OF EACH APPROACH

The scientific cohort develops internal skills along with fighting techniques and lives as Morihei Ueshiba did, welcoming others to test them. The scientific side believes that physical ability against serious physical force is the baseline of truth within aikido and all of budo. To this group, wearing a black belt implies serious interest in physical research with serious physical forces at play--in balanced and focused attacks and instant and unquestionably effective aikido technique.

The "general art" group believes that the black belt is symbolic of some vague idea of honor and commitment. In aikido, it also carries a patina of "spirituality" as general and intangible as the purpose of aikido itself. Any suggestion that one physically "test" his or her techniques or understanding of principles is perceived and denounced as "bullying" or "competition" and the response is generally to eject the offender from the dojo and/or engage in passive-aggressive denunciations.

THE BALANCE

Graham here has called the "scientific" cohort "modern aikido" though it goes directly to the roots of OLD aikido, while Graham clearly present something "new upon the earth" with his Golden Center videos.

Wearing a rasta hat with a hakama and calling traditionalists "modern aikido"....just...somehow...

It reminds me of Mitt Romney's verbal reversals, really.

Gassho.

David

Ahh, my old friend David. I see you divide things into two groups. Mmmmm. Interesting.

I see your view on the ways of the 'science side' and I would say that is quite apt to how those who consider themselves such do things.

Now the 'arty side?' Nah, never met any like that. So I see no 'arty side' except in peoples heads.

As for reversals........no reversals that I can see by me.

I thought traditionalists, according to your 'cohorts' as you put it, were those who followed along doing what they were told whilst the inner secrets were withheld from them. Now that would make your 'open' methods quite new and modern would it not.

Add to that that modern day and age is media orientated and we are continually bombarded with scurrilous designed to make you feel like you are lacking and therefore need to have then you can see presenting something in a similar way could be considered just as scurrilous. The presentation, not the thing itself.

I see my hat still leads your mind. I must admit seeing you bounce backwards across the room like some poltergeist had got you took my mind for a second.;)

Peace.G.

graham christian
10-10-2012, 06:56 PM
Gee, Dave, you were really doing good until you threw down the political card - as all sensible people know, politics is the bane of society and it is destined to eventually bring us to Armageddon :D

Greg

Hi Greg, hope this hasn't disturbed you on your yacht. Practicing Aikido on the waves or on a rough sea, now there's a thought.

Politrix? An art all of itself.

Peace.G.

David Orange
10-10-2012, 07:56 PM
Ahh, my old friend David. I see you divide things into two groups. Mmmmm. Interesting.

No, you have divided it that way, since your first post. I just put names on the two groups you described and further delineated the characteristics of each group.

Of course...in martial arts, only one of those groups is even considered to exist. The other is not even noticed.

I see your view on the ways of the 'science side' and I would say that is quite apt to how those who consider themselves such do things.

It was how O Sensei did things. And I'm way more artist than scientist in my approach to life.

The IP side works only from O Sensei--not from Kisshomaru or forward. That, which you represent, if anything, is "modern" aikido. The "scientific" side is "old" aiki.

Now the 'arty side?' Nah, never met any like that. So I see no 'arty side' except in peoples heads.

Well, that and the lack of aiki in their bodies....and maybe the hats they choose...

I thought traditionalists, according to your 'cohorts' as you put it, were those who followed along doing what they were told whilst the inner secrets were withheld from them. Now that would make your 'open' methods quite new and modern would it not.

No. Your "traditionalists" are rooted in the 1960s or 70s.

My traditionalists are from the 1930s and 1940s. Guys like Mochizuki and Shioda didn't follow along doing what they were told. If there was a secret to be had, they made sure to get it. It was the people who came along following Tohei's split who began losing the way.

Add to that that modern day and age is media orientated and we are continually bombarded with scurrilous designed to make you feel like you are lacking and therefore need to have then you can see presenting something in a similar way could be considered just as scurrilous. The presentation, not the thing itself.

Well, there's your problem, right there. "The presentation" is in your perception. The "scientific" cohort does not put this out as something "to make you feel like you are lacking and therefore need to have."

The noise from the scientific cohort is endless iterations of "EUREKA!" It's positive excitement and JOY at a fantastic discovery that was there all along, like gravity or displacement of water.

You hear the noise and look in and people say, "Look what we have discovered!"

And you say, "I already know that. I do all that."

Oooohhhhhh.

So your pride in your own understanding leads you to disrespect people who know something you've never glimpsed and when they bounce you out, you start hearing the "EUREKA!" differently, through a wounded ego, and when you can't get in any other way, we get passive-aggressive threads like this from you.

I see my hat still leads your mind. I must admit seeing you bounce backwards across the room like some poltergeist had got you took my mind for a second.;)

Really? Poltergeist?

What if I can keep my place and drive a big guy even further across the room than that, with just as little movement?

Would you consider that "poltergeist-like"?

Is that the kind of "invisible" power you can produce?

It's just one expression of the kind of energy-sourcing that creates aiki.

But your problem has really been two-fold. By that I mean that there are two groups here that give you most of the grief you get. Other groups provide some peripheral grief, but let's just look at the two main ones.

Traditionalist aikidoka
IP/IS aikidoka

The traditionalists who believe that aiki is external "blending" with the external movement of an attacker's body, see you in the Golden Center Aikido videos and protest vehemently because it appears that you are literally "selling" something as aikido that definitely is not real aikido. I am among this group as, I believe, is Henry Ellis Sensei. And, truth be told, pretty much everyone on here with a few years of serious aikido experience, even in the "general art" group, seems to think that you're presenting a corrupted practice without even knowing it.

You respond by saying that you're teaching ki and principles. Traditionalists wonder, "Why didn't Ueshiba do it that way, then?" Most of them are just too polite to criticize you, but Mochizuki Sensei would not have hesitated and you see a similar spirit from Ellis Sensei.

However, with your claims to be teaching "ki," you step into the IP/IS field and even declare that you can do what Uehsiba did. We would like to see that on video. And I do count myself also among this group that knows that ki development and use is not as you describe it and believe that while selling a particularly corrupt outer form as aikido, you're also selling a meaningless explanation of "ki" and unsound ways of developing it.

Meanwhile, you're constantly taking the IP/IS people to task for failing to grasp your unique approach to the art as "the same" as what they're doing.

Problem is, it's not.

And you get flak from both sides, but you seem to credit all your grief only to the IP/IS group, maybe because more than a few of us fall into both groups--enough IP/IS to know you're on the wrong trail entirely; and enough "regular" aikido to know that you're not teaching that right, either. So it seems like it's all IP/IS people who object to your presentation, but it isn't. It's IP and it's Tradition. The Modern Aikido side places niceties above the qualities of the arts.

But the fact that you see everyone's excitement and joy at finding IP/IS and interpret it as "promotion" intended to make you feel "that you are missing out or less than" just shows that the problem starts with you. You want to be included, of course. Everyone wants to be included. But we all experience rejection at times in life because we want the group's respect on our own criteria rather than the group's, even while stepping on its truths and insulting the individuals involved.

Instead, why don't you consider listening to what the IP/IS side is really saying? Why don't you find out what they've seen that has impressed them so much?

David

hughrbeyer
10-10-2012, 09:02 PM
If someone expresses an opinion in a manner that is aggressive, rude, or offensive, I agree that there is nothing constructive about it and they should keep it to themselves or be ignored.

Hmm. I appreciate that this may be a goal to strive for, especially online, but as stated you know this is totally wrong, don't you?

Does the value of the message depend on the manner in which it was stated? Do you only accept feedback phrased in a way exquisitely tuned to spare your feelings? Do you only accept input from perfect human beings, who know how to present their feedback in the most careful way possible?

Can you see how much that limits you?

I get a lot of feedback in my professional life, and I've developed a fairly clear methodology for responding to it:
1. Total fury about what an unmitigated jerk the guy is
2. Piss and moan about how they didn't understand what I was doing or and how they didn't even try to read it
3. Complain about their ignorance and incomprehension about the subject matter
4. Object to the stupid way they phrased their comments
5. Sigh, put their review in front of me, and start to deal with it to improve my work

Trying to skip steps 1-4 never really works. Knowing that those are just stages and I've got to get to 5 sooner or later does.

Same if you're feeling put on the spot by Aikido discussions. So what if someone has gone into sales mode? That's their problem. Take what's valuable and leave the rest. So what if they don't think your Aikido is valid? They're a voice on the internet. Take what's valuable and leave the rest.

Or... if the comments are coming from someone you're not willing to ignore... take a long, hard look in the mirror and decide what you really care about. Decide if your self-image as a kick-ass martial artist is really worth preserving over the reality of being a kick-ass martial artist. You can't have the second without being willing to put the first at risk.

gregstec
10-10-2012, 11:02 PM
Hi Greg, hope this hasn't disturbed you on your yacht. Practicing Aikido on the waves or on a rough sea, now there's a thought.

Politrix? An art all of itself.

Peace.G.

I do that all the time - actually, I am doing it right now; wind and waves picking up a bit tonight on the Chesapeake :)

You do realize I consider your OP in this thread nothing more than a troll to stir up the pot and get some attention - if you are that lonely, send me a PM and we can chat about our various travels in the astral plane :D

Greg

David Orange
10-10-2012, 11:22 PM
Gee, Dave, you were really doing good until you threw down the political card - as all sensible people know, politics is the bane of society and it is destined to eventually bring us to Armageddon :D

Oh. Are you a Romney dude?

Sorry.

I'm actually going to vote for Rmoney....until the day before the election...

Of course, in Alabama, my vote might as well not exist...

:p

graham christian
10-11-2012, 01:52 AM
I do that all the time - actually, I am doing it right now; wind and waves picking up a bit tonight on the Chesapeake :)

You do realize I consider your OP in this thread nothing more than a troll to stir up the pot and get some attention - if you are that lonely, send me a PM and we can chat about our various travels in the astral plane :D

Greg

No doubt you are not alone in your considerations. Shame. I'm lonely now am I? Interesting conclusion.

Nice offer though I'll remember that if ever I am.;)

Peace.G.

graham christian
10-11-2012, 03:34 AM
No, you have divided it that way, since your first post. I just put names on the two groups you described and further delineated the characteristics of each group.

Of course...in martial arts, only one of those groups is even considered to exist. The other is not even noticed.

It was how O Sensei did things. And I'm way more artist than scientist in my approach to life.

The IP side works only from O Sensei--not from Kisshomaru or forward. That, which you represent, if anything, is "modern" aikido. The "scientific" side is "old" aiki.

Well, that and the lack of aiki in their bodies....and maybe the hats they choose...

No. Your "traditionalists" are rooted in the 1960s or 70s.

My traditionalists are from the 1930s and 1940s. Guys like Mochizuki and Shioda didn't follow along doing what they were told. If there was a secret to be had, they made sure to get it. It was the people who came along following Tohei's split who began losing the way.

Well, there's your problem, right there. "The presentation" is in your perception. The "scientific" cohort does not put this out as something "to make you feel like you are lacking and therefore need to have."

The noise from the scientific cohort is endless iterations of "EUREKA!" It's positive excitement and JOY at a fantastic discovery that was there all along, like gravity or displacement of water.

You hear the noise and look in and people say, "Look what we have discovered!"

And you say, "I already know that. I do all that."

Oooohhhhhh.

So your pride in your own understanding leads you to disrespect people who know something you've never glimpsed and when they bounce you out, you start hearing the "EUREKA!" differently, through a wounded ego, and when you can't get in any other way, we get passive-aggressive threads like this from you.

Really? Poltergeist?

What if I can keep my place and drive a big guy even further across the room than that, with just as little movement?

Would you consider that "poltergeist-like"?

Is that the kind of "invisible" power you can produce?

It's just one expression of the kind of energy-sourcing that creates aiki.

But your problem has really been two-fold. By that I mean that there are two groups here that give you most of the grief you get. Other groups provide some peripheral grief, but let's just look at the two main ones.

Traditionalist aikidoka
IP/IS aikidoka

The traditionalists who believe that aiki is external "blending" with the external movement of an attacker's body, see you in the Golden Center Aikido videos and protest vehemently because it appears that you are literally "selling" something as aikido that definitely is not real aikido. I am among this group as, I believe, is Henry Ellis Sensei. And, truth be told, pretty much everyone on here with a few years of serious aikido experience, even in the "general art" group, seems to think that you're presenting a corrupted practice without even knowing it.

You respond by saying that you're teaching ki and principles. Traditionalists wonder, "Why didn't Ueshiba do it that way, then?" Most of them are just too polite to criticize you, but Mochizuki Sensei would not have hesitated and you see a similar spirit from Ellis Sensei.

However, with your claims to be teaching "ki," you step into the IP/IS field and even declare that you can do what Uehsiba did. We would like to see that on video. And I do count myself also among this group that knows that ki development and use is not as you describe it and believe that while selling a particularly corrupt outer form as aikido, you're also selling a meaningless explanation of "ki" and unsound ways of developing it.

Meanwhile, you're constantly taking the IP/IS people to task for failing to grasp your unique approach to the art as "the same" as what they're doing.

Problem is, it's not.

And you get flak from both sides, but you seem to credit all your grief only to the IP/IS group, maybe because more than a few of us fall into both groups--enough IP/IS to know you're on the wrong trail entirely; and enough "regular" aikido to know that you're not teaching that right, either. So it seems like it's all IP/IS people who object to your presentation, but it isn't. It's IP and it's Tradition. The Modern Aikido side places niceties above the qualities of the arts.

But the fact that you see everyone's excitement and joy at finding IP/IS and interpret it as "promotion" intended to make you feel "that you are missing out or less than" just shows that the problem starts with you. You want to be included, of course. Everyone wants to be included. But we all experience rejection at times in life because we want the group's respect on our own criteria rather than the group's, even while stepping on its truths and insulting the individuals involved.

Instead, why don't you consider listening to what the IP/IS side is really saying? Why don't you find out what they've seen that has impressed them so much?

David

No, no two groups mentioned by me thanks. Also I never describe anyone as traditionalist. So you may carry on doing so but don't include me in that line of reason.

IP works only from Ueshiba and not from Kisshomaru forward? That 'old' aiki maybe.

What I represent? By your conclusions and assertions on such I see you have no idea in that respect.

My pride in my understanding wounded? Nice philosophy and personal assertion. However, way off the mark once again. I like others uereka moments, I share their joy.

What if you do stay in one place and send someone flying with minimal movement. Obviously that means a great deal to you so go for it. What would I think about it? Not much.

Can I produce that kind of power? Yes, it's no big deal.

Nice of you to explain my 'problem' too. So many assertions you make which are not true, interesting.

I take IS/IP folk to task for failing to understand my unique approach as 'the same' as what they are doing? Totally false.

Your experiment with the wall in your video reminds me only of a similar thing I did twenty years ago.

Similar with regards to experimenting with power but totally different in respect to the 'aiki' you use.

Lastly I will repeat that promoting and sharing what you do or 'aiki' folks do is welcomed, liked, enjoyed by me. That means your assertions are way, way askew.

Now, let me reverse everything you conclude and only then do I see a more pertinent scene.

I understand the many different ways and approaches taken by various styles and groups within the Aikido sphere. I understand such 'aiki' folk doing their thing. I can enjoy watching all forms of aikido. I have been to various places with people and watched various ways and whilst many of those I went with either came away complaining how rubbish it was I myself enjoyed it. I enjoy.

Great power? Unusual power? Something I and others have been demonstrating for years. From the 'aiki' you talk about? No.

So I can describe and accept and understand what this 'old' aiki is about and tell others quite clearly what it is you and the 'aiki' folk do. I can present it as it is and present it to others in a good way.

Therefor if someone came to me looking for such a thing I would know who to send them to or refer them to. As I've said before, it's all good.

On the other hand you my friend can not I believe do the same regarding what I do.

I listen to what these IP/IS folk say and see and understand that they are impressed.

So the scene is very, very simple. I enjoy all forms of Aikido. Those who don't don't understand me.

Peace.G.

MM
10-11-2012, 07:12 AM
Oooohhhhhh.

So your pride in your own understanding leads you to disrespect people who know something you've never glimpsed and when they bounce you out, you start hearing the "EUREKA!" differently, through a wounded ego, and when you can't get in any other way, we get passive-aggressive threads like this from you.



Hi David,

Most can see that Graham Christian's original post was denigrating to people. And, yes, I think that needs to be made clear, but I try to do so without resorting to that level. Why he made the post? Not really a factor here and going down that road leads to similar instances of degrading. Guess, what I'm asking is if we could try to keep away from talking about personalities and stick to the subject matter.

Thanks,
Mark

gregstec
10-11-2012, 08:02 AM
Oh. Are you a Romney dude?

Sorry.

I'm actually going to vote for Rmoney....until the day before the election...

Of course, in Alabama, my vote might as well not exist...

:p

Actually, I despise all politicians pretty much equally - normally I do a write in vote and last election I did Clark Kent, since he did not get in, this year I think I will go with Jeff Lebowski - have a nice day dude :D

Greg

phitruong
10-11-2012, 10:58 AM
Actually, I despise all politicians pretty much equally - normally I do a write in vote and last election I did Clark Kent, since he did not get in, this year I think I will go with Jeff Lebowski - have a nice day dude :D

Greg

Clark Kent? sheesh! it's a fake personality, dude! superman is superman through and through. he used Clark Kent as his alter-ego, i.e. not real. now, on the other hand, the left one, the other left, Bruce Wayne is the real thing, whereas, the batman is the alter-ego. superman born with it, whereas, batman has to work for it. so this year, you should write in for Bruce Wayne. it's all about promoting and advertising. besides, Bruce Wayne has better rides. :D

gregstec
10-11-2012, 11:16 AM
Clark Kent? sheesh! it's a fake personality, :D

Does that not apply to all politicians? :D:D:D

jonreading
10-11-2012, 12:01 PM
Three posts I drafted and deleted in response to this thread... Its like the gravity of the sun pulling me in...

First, promotion is the avenue by which to position your product and place it within the market. If anything, I would say, we, as consumers of aikido instruction are not vocal enough about providing feedback to fellow practitioners about their "product". I have read many threads here that opine if an instructor is "abusive", far fewer opine about instruction that lacks function, form, or clarity.
For example: "I like the Charlotte dojo. Phi is funny, but man he can't teach his way out of a paper bag. Oh, and he doesn't know a thing about aiki... kiai on the other hand. whew." (disclaimer: Phi is a nice guy and a great instructor and I am using him because I know him personally).

Second, grouping is a tactic of promotion. Are you cool? You are if you have an iPhone. Are you unique? Sure, if you buy these girlfriend jeans from the Gap. When someone points out something I am not doing, but they feel it has value, I will consider it. I am missing out, but that is something in my training that I am not doing. The consideration I must give is whether the thing is valuable to me. I hope aiki bunnies play bongo drums and flit ribbons all day long. Those things are missing from my training... and they will always be missing from my training because I do not value them. I did not say they have no value, only no value to me or the aikido I teach. It is no more appropriate for me to lament the bongo-drum-playing-ribbon-flitting aikido than it is for me to lament the internal-strength-power aikido. Some one believes there is value in each.

To tie these points together, I believe we have an obligation to identify and correctly place aikido dojo, instructors and students with the community. This isn't even an argument if we are talking about bad instructors or bad dojos. This is only an argument because we are overly polite and sensitive to aikido people who are nice.

As a final personal note, I was disappointed with the spirit of the initial post. Like many voices, I found this thread to be passive-aggressive and generally condescending. I was conflicted between hoping Jun would kill this thread and hoping some one could salvage its remains. I think it is fair to say that no one likes to be criticized, but when we do it in a spirit of aid and empathy it makes us stronger and better. I hope I will never turn down good advice from those I respect, even if my feelings (or ego) get a little bruised.

David Orange
10-11-2012, 12:25 PM
Most can see that Graham Christian's original post was denigrating to people. And, yes, I think that needs to be made clear, but I try to do so without resorting to that level. Why he made the post? Not really a factor here and going down that road leads to similar instances of degrading. Guess, what I'm asking is if we could try to keep away from talking about personalities and stick to the subject matter.


Great points, Mark.

Thanks.

David

David Orange
10-11-2012, 12:26 PM
this year I think I will go with Jeff Lebowski - have a nice day dude :D

Greg

I can abide with that.

graham christian
10-11-2012, 07:09 PM
CONCLUSION:

I just posted a this thread designed for those who would like to think, study, recognize.

Nothing wrong with promotion but 'What is the message given by modern advertising and pressure selling?'

Think about it, observe it, recognize.

When you recognize it's unnecessary and passively aggressive we will be on the same page.

Given in the spirit of zen.

Peace.G.

MM
10-12-2012, 04:59 AM
CONCLUSION:

I just posted a this thread designed for those who would like to think, study, recognize.

Nothing wrong with promotion but 'What is the message given by modern advertising and pressure selling?'

Think about it, observe it, recognize.

When you recognize it's unnecessary and passively aggressive we will be on the same page.

Given in the spirit of zen.

Peace.G.

Yet you posted this, "Promotion......ahh, gone are the days so it seems where one just promotes what he is doing, happy for those who want to do likewise and happy for those who don't. Minds led this way and that way by the fear of missing out, shame really. As I see it it's just unnecessary fodder for the insecure. Funny thing is it's not even needed."

Again, you do not answer the questions asked:

Modern advertising is all over the place. There is no congruent, fixed "thing" labelled "modern advertising". So again, please detail out what you mean in relation to "a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising". You stated "a lot". Please show us the threads, posts, people who are doing all this degrading into advertising.

Would you please define "that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than"? Please point to people or posts.

Who are you calling "insecure"?

You stated that people are degrading because they are talking about advertising or promoting aikido in an unhealthy manner. So, please give us the threads, posts, people where this is happening. If you can't, then please apologize to the aikido community for your denigrating them into insecure salespeople who are driven by fear.

graham christian
10-12-2012, 05:25 PM
Yet you posted this, "Promotion......ahh, gone are the days so it seems where one just promotes what he is doing, happy for those who want to do likewise and happy for those who don't. Minds led this way and that way by the fear of missing out, shame really. As I see it it's just unnecessary fodder for the insecure. Funny thing is it's not even needed."

Again, you do not answer the questions asked:

Modern advertising is all over the place. There is no congruent, fixed "thing" labelled "modern advertising". So again, please detail out what you mean in relation to "a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising". You stated "a lot". Please show us the threads, posts, people who are doing all this degrading into advertising.

Would you please define "that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than"? Please point to people or posts.

Who are you calling "insecure"?

You stated that people are degrading because they are talking about advertising or promoting aikido in an unhealthy manner. So, please give us the threads, posts, people where this is happening. If you can't, then please apologize to the aikido community for your denigrating them into insecure salespeople who are driven by fear.

Read my post above....CONCLUSION.

Are we on the same page? I think not. Thus your misunderstanding.

Peace.G.

MM
10-12-2012, 05:44 PM
Read my post above....CONCLUSION.

Are we on the same page? I think not. Thus your misunderstanding.

Peace.G.

There is no misunderstanding. You were asked to provide specifics and you have not. Your original post was denigrating and most can see it. I think you should be held accountable for your post. Either answer the questions and provide specifics or apologize.

Mark

graham christian
10-12-2012, 06:08 PM
There is no misunderstanding. You were asked to provide specifics and you have not. Your original post was denigrating and most can see it. I think you should be held accountable for your post. Either answer the questions and provide specifics or apologize.

Mark

Well if you don't think you are misunderstanding then it's pointless answering anything you ask.

If there is no misunderstanding then we are on the same page. I think not. Therefor no worthwhile communication exists between me and thee.

I have shown quite clearly how the principles of advertising and pressure selling work and being an ANALOGY one can thus see when we operate from said principles, complete with examples ie: Boasting.

You continue however to insist I am calling people salesmen. If you can only be literal then and not follow what the OP asks then fine by me but alas end of conversation.

Peace.G.

MM
10-12-2012, 08:31 PM
Well if you don't think you are misunderstanding then it's pointless answering anything you ask.

If there is no misunderstanding then we are on the same page. I think not. Therefor no worthwhile communication exists between me and thee.

I have shown quite clearly how the principles of advertising and pressure selling work and being an ANALOGY one can thus see when we operate from said principles, complete with examples ie: Boasting.

You continue however to insist I am calling people salesmen. If you can only be literal then and not follow what the OP asks then fine by me but alas end of conversation.

Peace.G.

Considering that it wasn't *just* me asking, you might want to rethink your approach. And no, you did not clear anything up except to show that you're unwilling to answer the questions put forth. Please keep on topic for this thread that you started and answer the questions.

Mark

Travers Hughes
10-14-2012, 06:13 PM
Graham, as an advertiser and promoter, I have chosen to take offence to your overriding assertion that advertising is forcing your opinion on someone else due to your projection of this very device. It is true that SOME advertisers do this. The EFFECTIVE ones do not. I'm interested to hear of your experiences in the marketing and advertising field that has led you to such an opinion?
I;m not trying to be argumentative - I have difficulty understanding your post(s) and would like to be able to contribute to a constructive dialogue better.
There is bad advertising out there in buy-me-now-land. As a consumer, it is our responsibility to filter out the unnecessary - rather like our practice, wouldn't you think?
FYI - I don't own a Blu-ray player - don't need one. Guess that message got lost on me?
Cheers
Thanks and regards,

graham christian
10-14-2012, 07:09 PM
Graham, as an advertiser and promoter, I have chosen to take offence to your overriding assertion that advertising is forcing your opinion on someone else due to your projection of this very device. It is true that SOME advertisers do this. The EFFECTIVE ones do not. I'm interested to hear of your experiences in the marketing and advertising field that has led you to such an opinion?
I;m not trying to be argumentative - I have difficulty understanding your post(s) and would like to be able to contribute to a constructive dialogue better.
There is bad advertising out there in buy-me-now-land. As a consumer, it is our responsibility to filter out the unnecessary - rather like our practice, wouldn't you think?
FYI - I don't own a Blu-ray player - don't need one. Guess that message got lost on me?
Cheers
Thanks and regards,

Hi Travers. You take offence do you? Well I hope you don't blame me for it is your choice.

Having said that I am only too happy to discuss the topic with you.

Your 'joke' about not owning a blu ray player actually agrees with what I say in the OP. You were quite happy and confident in what you already had. Thus on that particular subject you were not vulnerable or insecure.

Hopefully that clears up that point.

As to my experience it would be quite a lot to write and then as to your other point about responsibility to filter out then on that I would say that is not responsibility or rather primary responsibility either.

So I will answer those two things shortly.

Peace.G.

graham christian
10-14-2012, 08:18 PM
Hi Travers.
The principles I mentioned were of sales and thus that is the area actually and then of course those same principles being used in advertising. I also do qualify it by adding 'pressure' to further clarify that it doesn't necessarily mean 'all' sales principles.

Having been through a period many years ago, a period of about ten years, I had selling jobs as my standard 'fall back to' way of earning money. All kinds of different types of sales jobs. One guy who I had decided to help was a very good salesman and was headhunted by many a company which was quite amusing to me for his life was being a salesman where every time he was he earned big bucks but then he would go and start his own company where he would always fail and have to go back to salesman again and be once again very successful.

Now me personally would not class myself as a salesman for to me it was just something I was good at but would never do it the way the high flyers and experts said it should be done. Therefor not being 'me' I would never take big company jobs in sales and actually walked out of more than two training courses disgusted by how the experts said things must be done. So I prefered front line door to door selling, just set my targets and get my money, done. During this time I even did part time things as well like Amway and a home delivery service where you deliver catalogues and take orders and then deliver the goods etc.

So during that period as far as sales go I learned many 'ways' and principles used from those of the companies I was disgusted by and those which I wasn't. Funny thing was that the ones which were best for me were only interested in can you sell and not interested in telling you how to.

Now back to my friend. When he started up a business he usually preferred to have or rather build some sort of home delivery business as he liked getting out there pounding the streets and meeting people. Thus I was always helping him out. Even he too, although a friend, would tell me how I should sell and would teach me all the tricks of the trade. He had it as a goal of his to make me a salesman so I could be as good as him as a salesman but of course he failed in that goal for he couldn't see how I did not wan't to be a salesman like he was and didn't agree with all the psychology and trickery involved. However, each time he sent a team of us out I always outsold everyone.

There's more but I think that's enough.

Now as for responsibility to sift out I would say no. I would say that type of statement is very rabble rousing in effect and is the type of thing I find control freaks shout from the rooftops. Fearful people bless them.

So don't take that personally for we all use 'reasonable' statements like that which we have copied from others, nice soundbites dressed up as responsibility but oft times don't really inspect thoroughly what we are saying. Responsibility is first and foremost knowing what you want and your own scene.

In fact irresponsibility is being negative about others.

Ueshiba is a good example of responsibility this way as far as I am concerned. He just said how and what his Aikido was and got on with it with those who were interested. He didn't go around putting down other martial arts verbally or even those branching off doing their own versions of what he taught. He actually encouraged it. He just promoted his own thing.

It sold itself. It always will.

Peace.G.

Travers Hughes
10-14-2012, 11:10 PM
Hi Graham, thanks for your reply. Apologies for the multi-quotes - I didn't want to bore readers with walls of text. Sometime these look confrontational - not my intention at all as I hope you'll see:

Hi Travers. You take offence do you? Well I hope you don't blame me for it is your choice.
No, I don't take offence, and mentioned that it was my choice in my post. That's kinda my point. It's all about choices - choices to be aware of the message, show an interest, or even to act. I didn't have to write a message - I chose to. As it was your choice to reply.

Your 'joke' about not owning a blu ray player actually agrees with what I say in the OP. You were quite happy and confident in what you already had.
That's not quite correct. You've made the assumption that I was happy with what I had. Did I say that? I just said that I didn't need one. This assumption is a promotion of your idea - a projection that doesn't exist for me. (FYI - quite simply, I don't watch many movies and don't see the need for one. When technology reaches the point that I'm forced to purchase for the convenience factor, then I'll do so).

Now as for responsibility to sift out I would say no.
I respectfully disagree. As a consumer, everything I choose to purchase is by my decision and ultimately my responsibility. If I make a bad decision, the responsibility is mine. It not rabble rousing at all to make such a statement. I agree the statement can be dishonest if you say it but don't mean it, though. That falls into the realm of being dishonet with oneself. That's the biggest sin in my book. (Note to all readers: I'm not accusing anyone, including Graham, of that. If you choose to see that trait in yourself, that's another story).

So don't take that personally
Of course not, you too.

we all use 'reasonable' statements like that which we have copied from others .
We sure do. Hi pot, I'm kettle. Did you know you're black?:)

Can I suggest the terms in the title may be misleading to some? The terms "Promotion and Advertising" are not quite the same as "Salesmanship" (all of which I have been involved in for the last 20 odd years). Personally, I'm in favour of promotion done well.

Take care,

graham christian
10-15-2012, 09:09 AM
Hi Graham, thanks for your reply. Apologies for the multi-quotes - I didn't want to bore readers with walls of text. Sometime these look confrontational - not my intention at all as I hope you'll see:

No, I don't take offence, and mentioned that it was my choice in my post. That's kinda my point. It's all about choices - choices to be aware of the message, show an interest, or even to act. I didn't have to write a message - I chose to. As it was your choice to reply.

That's not quite correct. You've made the assumption that I was happy with what I had. Did I say that? I just said that I didn't need one. This assumption is a promotion of your idea - a projection that doesn't exist for me. (FYI - quite simply, I don't watch many movies and don't see the need for one. When technology reaches the point that I'm forced to purchase for the convenience factor, then I'll do so).

I respectfully disagree. As a consumer, everything I choose to purchase is by my decision and ultimately my responsibility. If I make a bad decision, the responsibility is mine. It not rabble rousing at all to make such a statement. I agree the statement can be dishonest if you say it but don't mean it, though. That falls into the realm of being dishonet with oneself. That's the biggest sin in my book. (Note to all readers: I'm not accusing anyone, including Graham, of that. If you choose to see that trait in yourself, that's another story).

Of course not, you too.

We sure do. Hi pot, I'm kettle. Did you know you're black?:)

Can I suggest the terms in the title may be misleading to some? The terms "Promotion and Advertising" are not quite the same as "Salesmanship" (all of which I have been involved in for the last 20 odd years). Personally, I'm in favour of promotion done well.

Take care,

Hi Travers. Thanks for the reply. I think what you write here is almost the same as what I said so any 'discrepancy' is more down to wording than anything else.

Like 'happy with' and 'don't need'. When I say happy with it implied 'aware that what you have or use is sufficient for the time being' and therefor don't need. As you say that may change.

As a consumer also the fact of responsible for own choice is quite true. Rabble rousing refers to using tactics to make, or try to make, someone feel like they need or else. ie: if you don't do 'a' or have 'b' then you are not one of us or of correct worth or normal or.........I think you get the gist.
As I said the prime responsibility is knowing self, what you actually want or need just as you say in your way which means simply being honest with yourself.

Promotion, good promotion, again is a thing I say as you do is great.

Even if we look into the animal kingdom and lets say 'mating rituals' you can see these principles in action. The male usually putting on a show, great promotion and advertising which leads us to the next principle of why? To attract. The purpose is to attract.

Now imagine an animal being a scurrilous salesman. It would spend it's time telling all those other females why the other males are not good enough, don't do it right, haven't got what it takes. Sound familiar. All in order to attract them to him.

What a convoluted, complex, negative, destructive way of trying to achieve the same result of attracting.

Same aims, different methods. One natural one not and that's putting it politely.

To finish off I agree with you also that the OP could have been written better or put in a better way but so could virtually all things written. There will always be those who feel upset or confused or even angry with what another is doing or what they have said or written, always. You may be super successful and harming nobody yet someone will be upset by it and complain, usually loudly like an empty barrel. Jealousy is a prime example of such behavior as an example.

So yes you are right but as long as intention is not to harm or mislead or damage then I will say my piece.

Ueshiba once again was a fine example of this too. He spoke from where he saw and left it for others to come to understanding. If he had worried about who may be offended or even that many would not understand what he was saying (all a fact) then he would have remained silent.

Nice talking to you Travers, like your style.

Peace.G.

MM
10-15-2012, 09:18 AM
Rabble rousing refers to using tactics to make, or try to make, someone feel like they need or else. ie: if you don't do 'a' or have 'b' then you are not one of us or of correct worth or normal or.........I think you get the gist.



Now imagine an animal being a scurrilous salesman. It would spend it's time telling all those other females why the other males are not good enough, don't do it right, haven't got what it takes. Sound familiar. All in order to attract them to him.

What a convoluted, complex, negative, destructive way of trying to achieve the same result of attracting.

Same aims, different methods. One natural one not and that's putting it politely.


Rabble rousing? scurrilous salesman? So, let's go back to your original post:

Promotion and advertising. It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising in alignment unfortunately with modern ways of doing things.

The message given by such advertising is that you are missing out, that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than.

Modern Aiki?

Promotion......ahh, gone are the days so it seems where one just promotes what he is doing, happy for those who want to do likewise and happy for those who don't.

Minds led this way and that way by the fear of missing out, shame really.

As I see it it's just unnecessary fodder for the insecure. Funny thing is it's not even needed.

Peace.G.

You put it all in context with "Modern aiki". The only person I know who uses the term is me with Modern Aikido. I think you're just using passive aggressive attacks here. And as you have been asked numerous times and have yet to give answers, I'll ask them again:

Would you please define what you mean by " talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising"? Please point to posts or people.

Would you please define "that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than"? Please point to people or posts. Especially since you've done this kind of passive aggressive insulting before and it's pointed back to me. And now, your post following on my recent posting about what I thought was "wrong" seems very coincidental.

Who are you calling "insecure"?

Your whole post seems like a passive aggressive insult to people here. So, would you mind explaining exactly, specifically, what you meant? Your whole post is about denigrating people who you think are out advertising, rather than talking about history, training, aikido, techniques, etc. Please clarify why that is so. You do so again with your latest post.

You stated that people are degrading because they are talking about advertising or promoting aikido in an unhealthy manner. So, please give us the threads, posts, people where this is happening. If you can't, then please apologize to the aikido community for your denigrating them into insecure salespeople who are driven by fear.

If you won't, then perhaps Jun can lock and/or delete this thread as I see no real purpose for it except to continue your passive aggressive attacks. Especially as I think you're just continuing them from your latest post.

graham christian
10-15-2012, 04:42 PM
Rabble rousing? scurrilous salesman? So, let's go back to your original post:

You put it all in context with "Modern aiki". The only person I know who uses the term is me with Modern Aikido. I think you're just using passive aggressive attacks here. And as you have been asked numerous times and have yet to give answers, I'll ask them again:

Would you please define what you mean by " talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising"? Please point to posts or people.

Would you please define "that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than"? Please point to people or posts. Especially since you've done this kind of passive aggressive insulting before and it's pointed back to me. And now, your post following on my recent posting about what I thought was "wrong" seems very coincidental.

Who are you calling "insecure"?

Your whole post seems like a passive aggressive insult to people here. So, would you mind explaining exactly, specifically, what you meant? Your whole post is about denigrating people who you think are out advertising, rather than talking about history, training, aikido, techniques, etc. Please clarify why that is so. You do so again with your latest post.

You stated that people are degrading because they are talking about advertising or promoting aikido in an unhealthy manner. So, please give us the threads, posts, people where this is happening. If you can't, then please apologize to the aikido community for your denigrating them into insecure salespeople who are driven by fear.

If you won't, then perhaps Jun can lock and/or delete this thread as I see no real purpose for it except to continue your passive aggressive attacks. Especially as I think you're just continuing them from your latest post.

You obviously still have the same misunderstanding.

This post of yours is a fine example of what I say in the OP so I need not look elsewhere.

I have a view. I express it in the form of a statement.

1) You insist I must answer your question. You insist I must do so or else Jun should delete. You insist I should not only answer them but in the specific way and format you prescribe or else consequences will result.

Standard practice, tactics employed by pressure salesmen.

Now, as it's not literal but an analogy it doesn't therefor mean you are selling something in this case does it. It means you are using that unnecessary way and attitude to get what you want in the way you want it.

2) You say "Your whole post is about denigrating people who you think are out advertising, rather than talking about history, training, aikido, techniques, etc. Please clarify why that is so. You do so again with your latest post."

Once again telling me what I should be talking about according to you. Secondly giving a false statement for it is not about advertising or denigrating anyone who promotes or advertises. In fact as I have repeated promotion and advertising is good.

Presenting a false image is is also analogous to the tactic of the salesman.

3) Accusing me of being passively aggressive and thus insulting charachter once again will also be found as a tactic used by salesmen which they construe as applying pressure.

As I said, it's not a matter of if we do it it's a matter of when. It's a matter of seeing when we do and learning not to.

Can you envision discussion or debate without reference to charachter?

Can you envision a discussion or debate without telling someone else what they mean?

Can you envision promoting and advertising and sharing ideas without pointing fingers at specific posts and people unless you are promoting or acknowledging them?

Jun would be able to have a holiday.:)

If you want people to do things your way then talk to those who do them your way I would say especially if you cannot accept that another has choice in both how they answer and indeed if they answer or even wish to communicate with you.

Reminds me of a friend of mine who did wing chun. Always on about how others should do this and that and how others said this and that and what they should be made to do. His teacher told him twice 'No politics!'

The third time he caught him speaking in such a manner he said 'Final warning, I said no politics, if you persist I will take you outside and show you some real politics!' Hilarious.

A pressure salesman does not operate from the budo of love.

Peace.G.

Travers Hughes
10-15-2012, 05:13 PM
Hi Mark, apologies if by my re-opening this thread I've caused an issue. I wanted to test a theory on personality and repeated behaviour patterns - I shouldn't have done so in an active environment.
I don't want to get involved in any history you may have with Graham (I have no right even assume that you have a history in the first place).
As a member that has not posted much, I rely on thread histories to help me formulate an opinion about posters and their comments - based on their previous posts. If controversial threads were deleted in which I was acting less than appropriately, any new member would not have this history about me. The reverse is also true - if I read a statment that I thought was out of line, I could read previous posts and be reassured that my perception is no that correct one. (Again, I'm not saying anyone has - just pointing out the individual accountability aspect that falls on us all).
Let me add that in looking at your post history, I am looking forward to hearing more from you to assist my future growth. This is not a suck up - I'm actively and selfishly looking for people I can gain knowledge from. Your posts are succint and factual - I appreciate this writing/thinking style.
(Reminds me, I haven't even posted in the introductions thread and am not giving you any frame of reference - will do so now).
Thanks and kind regards,

Shadowfax
10-15-2012, 05:14 PM
After following this thread for several days I can come to two conclusions....

1) None of this makes any kind of sense. The OP is unclear as to exactly what Graham is so concerned about or wishing to discuss. Either get to the point and provide examples of what you are talking about or go find something better to do with your time.

2) Mark must be really bored to be wasting his time on a discussion that has no solid topic and is going nowhere.

Sometimes people are just wrong. It is okay to let them be wrong. Sometimes people don't agree. It is okay for people not to agree. It does not have to be threatening for someone else to be enthusiastic about sharing what they are learning even if it is different.

I have an idea. lets talk about aikido or aiki or whatever it is about our training that we really enjoy and are studying and not think that the other guys point of view is some sort of threat to what we ourselves are doing. If we are not open to the ideas being discussed just go read and contribute to another thread that suits your interests.

I've trained with Mark several times. He even drove hours out if his way to help me get to my dojo for a class when my car died. In none of those times has he done or said anything remotely like trying to make me feel like I am missing something or on the wrong track or that what he is doing is better than what we are doing in the dojo I train in. He has generously and enthusiastically shared what he is studying with those who are interested and we have found it to be a useful and interesting addition to our practice but it has hardly caused any of us to decide that we were missing out and had to get what he has. He is no threat to us or to anyone else who is out there doing whatever it is that they do. And as a student is generally a reflection of his teacher I must assume that Dan H operates in a similar fashion. And I do slightly resent any implication that I and others are unable to think and decide for ourselves whether or not to take an interest in other people's thoughts and ideas and decide if we would like to include them in our practice. But it is okay with me if that is what you think. Because I am okay with you being wrong. :)

Travers Hughes
10-15-2012, 05:16 PM
Hi Cherie - our posts crossed. Beautifully put.
Thanks and regards,

Shadowfax
10-15-2012, 05:18 PM
Hi Cherie - our posts crossed. Beautifully put.
Thanks and regards,

Hi there. Welcome to the forum. :)

graham christian
10-15-2012, 07:15 PM
After following this thread for several days I can come to two conclusions....

1) None of this makes any kind of sense. The OP is unclear as to exactly what Graham is so concerned about or wishing to discuss. Either get to the point and provide examples of what you are talking about or go find something better to do with your time.

2) Mark must be really bored to be wasting his time on a discussion that has no solid topic and is going nowhere.

Sometimes people are just wrong. It is okay to let them be wrong. Sometimes people don't agree. It is okay for people not to agree. It does not have to be threatening for someone else to be enthusiastic about sharing what they are learning even if it is different.

I have an idea. lets talk about aikido or aiki or whatever it is about our training that we really enjoy and are studying and not think that the other guys point of view is some sort of threat to what we ourselves are doing. If we are not open to the ideas being discussed just go read and contribute to another thread that suits your interests.

I've trained with Mark several times. He even drove hours out if his way to help me get to my dojo for a class when my car died. In none of those times has he done or said anything remotely like trying to make me feel like I am missing something or on the wrong track or that what he is doing is better than what we are doing in the dojo I train in. He has generously and enthusiastically shared what he is studying with those who are interested and we have found it to be a useful and interesting addition to our practice but it has hardly caused any of us to decide that we were missing out and had to get what he has. He is no threat to us or to anyone else who is out there doing whatever it is that they do. And as a student is generally a reflection of his teacher I must assume that Dan H operates in a similar fashion. And I do slightly resent any implication that I and others are unable to think and decide for ourselves whether or not to take an interest in other people's thoughts and ideas and decide if we would like to include them in our practice. But it is okay with me if that is what you think. Because I am okay with you being wrong. :)

Your conclusions are welcome.

There is not one member of this forum I can think of who isn't a nice and helpful person.

Mark or Dan or Chris Li or whoever who love researching and quoting data said by x, y and z, are thus wonderful encyclopedias or sources of knowledge. They are like everyone else here great people.

Statements I make are not personal.

Mark concludes that he is talking about Ueshib's 'aiki'. He backs it up with all kinds of references and data and argument. I believe that conclusion is not correct. Is that a reflection of what I think about him as a person? No.

Thanks for sharing what you think I think though.

Mark and Dan and David Orange and Marc and the others (I don't need to name them all) have explained and explained to me personally what they believe and that includes methods of research, methods of testing a la scientific proof and peers and such. They are joined and in agreement on those methods. Good. Not mine. Does that make them wrong? Does that make them as people wrong in my eyes? No.

So there is no need to defend them as people when I say something and no need to believe, think or assume I am being personal.

Peace.G.

Shadowfax
10-15-2012, 07:52 PM
Okay well if all that be true and you think everyone on aikiweb including Dan, Mark, Mike et all are wonderful people who are simply sharing their ideas and are fine people...and this is all fine and dandy with you...

Who exactly is it you think is selling people on aikiweb a bill of goods and which of the fine people here do you think are dumb enough to be deceived by said unknown member(s)/salespersons?

What was the point of this thread?

It all seems rather obvious to me that you do have a personal problem with certain members. I don't need to defend Mark as he is much more able to speak for himself than I am for him or anyone. However it does seem rather obvious to me that this group is really the target of your starting this thread. and mark being the one member of said group that I am personally familiar with I feel that my experience regarding that set of ideas and those who practice them is worth sharing.

If I, a relative newcomer to the martial arts world, and a not particularly eloquent speaker, who does not have high education in philosophies and other academics, can pick up on it then I'm sure it is not lost on others.

Why not just stand up for what you say and say what you mean instead of using words to create smoke screens.

I am sure if you spoke more clearly and to the point and provided citations references etc as Mark and others often do you might get a better reception and more productive discussion. Having your own special language is pretty useless if you want to actually share what you know (or think you know) with others.

And by the way.... yes actually I am really bored which is why I am even bothering. :p

mathewjgano
10-15-2012, 09:23 PM
If I, a relative newcomer to the martial arts world, and a not particularly eloquent speaker, who does not have high education in philosophies and other academics, can pick up on it then I'm sure it is not lost on others.


I think you're being humble; you speak very eloquently.

I agree the OP seems like a critique on the "IP crowd" because a big part of their message is that many people, if not most, don't know what they're missing (assuming internal training benefits are something they'd want in the first place, of course). I can see why Mark would see it as a swipe at him and others. Taking Graham at his word, I think his phrasing could have been better...and considering the nature of a LOT of conversations, it probably should have been, too.
...For what little it's worth.
Take care, all,
Matt
P.S. As an aside, because you mentioned him: I miss Mike. I do feel like I'm missing out on his views these days.

gregstec
10-15-2012, 10:16 PM
Okay well if all that be true and you think everyone on aikiweb including Dan, Mark, Mike et all are wonderful people who are simply sharing their ideas and are fine people...and this is all fine and dandy with you...

Who exactly is it you think is selling people on aikiweb a bill of goods and which of the fine people here do you think are dumb enough to be deceived by said unknown member(s)/salespersons?

What was the point of this thread?

It all seems rather obvious to me that you do have a personal problem with certain members. I don't need to defend Mark as he is much more able to speak for himself than I am for him or anyone. However it does seem rather obvious to me that this group is really the target of your starting this thread. and mark being the one member of said group that I am personally familiar with I feel that my experience regarding that set of ideas and those who practice them is worth sharing.

If I, a relative newcomer to the martial arts world, and a not particularly eloquent speaker, who does not have high education in philosophies and other academics, can pick up on it then I'm sure it is not lost on others.

Why not just stand up for what you say and say what you mean instead of using words to create smoke screens.

I am sure if you spoke more clearly and to the point and provided citations references etc as Mark and others often do you might get a better reception and more productive discussion. Having your own special language is pretty useless if you want to actually share what you know (or think you know) with others.

And by the way.... yes actually I am really bored which is why I am even bothering. :p

The American Indians have a saying: :Beware man who speaks with twisted tongue; their words only make sense to themselves" - I guess them Indians pretty smart peiple; they had their magic mushrooms and talked to anilmals :D

Greg

Shadowfax
10-16-2012, 07:27 AM
The American Indians have a saying: :Beware man who speaks with twisted tongue; their words only make sense to themselves" - I guess them Indians pretty smart peiple; they had their magic mushrooms and talked to anilmals :D

Greg

Yes indeed my ancestors were very intelligent people. They only used those mushrooms for special occasions to communicate better with the spirit world not for every day recreation. Now if they had only been less wiling to accept gifts of blankets and booze from strangers history might have come out a lot differently. Anyone can talk to animals. The tricky thing is learning to hear them when they talk to us. Sometimes the animals talk more sensibly and clearly than some humans. They are honest and clear in their communication. ;)

gregstec
10-16-2012, 08:50 AM
Yes indeed my ancestors were very intelligent people. They only used those mushrooms for special occasions to communicate better with the spirit world not for every day recreation. Now if they had only been less wiling to accept gifts of blankets and booze from strangers history might have come out a lot differently. Anyone can talk to animals. The tricky thing is learning to hear them when they talk to us. Sometimes the animals talk more sensibly and clearly than some humans. They are honest and clear in their communication. ;)

I tend to be more tolerable of animal behavior than human behavior for those very reasons :)

MM
10-16-2012, 11:42 AM
There is not one member of this forum I can think of who isn't a nice and helpful person.
Peace.G.

Let's go back to your original post where you stated:

"Promotion and advertising. It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising..."

So, who is doing the degrading advertising if everyone on this forum is a nice and helpful person?

Then you go on to say, "The message given by such advertising is that you are missing out, that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than."

So, who is not being helpful by stating that others are "missing out" and are "wrong or less than" if, as you state now, everyone is nice and helpful?


In fact as I have repeated promotion and advertising is good.


Not according to your original post, where you stated, "Promotion and advertising. It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising..."

and, "Promotion......ahh, gone are the days so it seems where one just promotes what he is doing, happy for those who want to do likewise and happy for those who don't." Obviously, these degrading salesmen are using the bad kind of advertising and promotion.


1) You insist I must answer your question. You insist I must do so or else Jun should delete. You insist I should not only answer them but in the specific way and format you prescribe or else consequences will result.

Standard practice, tactics employed by pressure salesmen.
Peace.G.

So, you just called me a pressure salesmen, which you then state does not operate from the budo of love.


A pressure salesman does not operate from the budo of love.

Peace.G.

Now, tell me again, how you think everyone here is nice and helpful?

This is your normal passive aggressive behaviour. You use veiled insults and then when you're called on them, you completely turn around and try to state just the opposite. You're not going to answer the questions, are you?

Mark

graham christian
10-16-2012, 04:38 PM
Let's go back to your original post where you stated:

"Promotion and advertising. It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising..."

So, who is doing the degrading advertising if everyone on this forum is a nice and helpful person?

Then you go on to say, "The message given by such advertising is that you are missing out, that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than."

So, who is not being helpful by stating that others are "missing out" and are "wrong or less than" if, as you state now, everyone is nice and helpful?

Not according to your original post, where you stated, "Promotion and advertising. It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising..."

and, "Promotion......ahh, gone are the days so it seems where one just promotes what he is doing, happy for those who want to do likewise and happy for those who don't." Obviously, these degrading salesmen are using the bad kind of advertising and promotion.

So, you just called me a pressure salesmen, which you then state does not operate from the budo of love.

Now, tell me again, how you think everyone here is nice and helpful?

This is your normal passive aggressive behaviour. You use veiled insults and then when you're called on them, you completely turn around and try to state just the opposite. You're not going to answer the questions, are you?

Mark

Nice. Thank you. As I pointed out and once again demonstrated above by you, it seems you find it very difficult not to insult. I do hope you get over that difficulty for the sake of better discussions.

The two sentences you keep repeating (above) and say I must 'point to people' shows me you have trouble with them. I wonder why?

I can tell you again and again and again if you like until you get it. No problem.

I do mention 'bad advertising' but not bad promotion by the way.

Do you know what a sentence is? Do you know it's an idea expressed in words?

So the first ideas mention 'bad' advertising. So if you can see that then we have a start from which to progress. We can progress onto the next ideas, in sequence, and build an overall concept and understanding.

You see, as you progress onto subsequent ideas you then discover that the word salesman is used and the principles of the salesman are emphasized. Only then can you string these ideas together and see what bad advertizing means.......it means advertising containing those principles used by the salesman. So aha! Attention goes to wow, what are these principles that salesmen use?

Ahhhhh, we have found the center, the core of this overall concept.....negative sales principles.

So we progress but we have new questions arising in our mind. "Why is this guy talking about this?"

Now if we have new questions forming we must admit there's something we don't understand. We don't fully understand. That's the process, that's intelligence at work.

So we progress forward and find it's a matter of first looking at the principles 'bad' or pressure salesmen use and then discovering where else those same principles are used 'outside' of the thing called salesman.

"Oh I see, so he's not saying anyone is a salesman, he's being philosophical, it's an analogy. Wow, what a fool I've been, I thought he was being literal. Come to think of it this guy always tells us he teaches only principles, he's always talking about the philosophy and principles,"

And son and so forth.....

Of course you would have to admit a fundamental thing first which is the writer (me) understands what he said and you don't. That's fundamental. That's beginners mind. Beyond that all you have is conjecture, assumption, opinion. Beginners mind, what a lovely thing.

Now finally you actually ask me to do a good thing, a positive thing......to tell you again how I think everyone here is nice and helpful. I love it. I would love to do it too. I might even start a thread with that as the title there's so much to say. What a great question. You really are tempting me to answer that one. To point fingers in a positive way. Ask me again and I think the temptation will be too much and I would have to answer it and point fingers and probably fill up a whole page at least, maybe a book. Woahhhhhhh....slow down G. Ha, ha.

Remember "He who points at someone has three fingers pointing back at himself"

Peace.G.

graham christian
10-16-2012, 04:45 PM
The American Indians have a saying: :Beware man who speaks with twisted tongue; their words only make sense to themselves" - I guess them Indians pretty smart peiple; they had their magic mushrooms and talked to anilmals :D

Greg

Funny, I know a few other cultures with the same saying but the meaning is far off what you say. Your explanation would like to be believed as true by those with such forked tongues.

Peace.G.

akiy
10-16-2012, 05:03 PM
I don't see this thread progressing anywhere further.

Thread closed.

-- Jun