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tim evans
09-22-2012, 01:51 PM
Any training tips to help me find it consistently thanks.

ChrisHein
09-22-2012, 02:04 PM
I think it helps to think of yonkyo as a gripping technique first. The main lesson of yonkyo, to me, is the way in which you use your hand and transmit power from your hand to the target (most likely the lower arm. Once you understand this you can do yonkyo anywhere you can grab, and all your yonkyo's will be powerful.

When looking at the classic yonkyo. It will be easiest to work on the lowest part of the arm possible, and try to find an uke who doesn't have a large forearm in the beginning. When looking for the "yonkyo spot" don't mover around quickly, moving your hand every time you're not on the mark. Instead slowly move around the lower arm until you see a reaction from uke, then work in that area. here's a video that might help:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/oldasc/content/?p=218

Basia Halliop
09-22-2012, 02:24 PM
As best as I can understand is that the pain is an optional bonus, but the leverage is the key and they should go down regardless of whether it hurts or not. There are always a few freaks* who never seem to feel pain no matter who does yonkyo on them. But they still get their faces driven into the mat if someone knows how to do it well.

* I mean 'freak' in the nicest, friendliest, least insulting way possible :).

Krystal Locke
09-22-2012, 03:44 PM
Yonkyo is a control technique first. Look to lock and control uke's elbow, shoulder, and ultimately, center with yonkyo before you look for the spot that hurts.

That said, the kokyu that makes a good sword cut and makes for good kokyu nage also is useful for stimulating that yonkyo spot. Dont just try to push on that spot, try to lift (a standing) uke by that point and let their body weight put the pain on them. Make the spot a fulcrum.

Andrew S
09-22-2012, 05:26 PM
I agree that too many people see yonkyo primarily as a "pain" method, and that some uke feel it more than others.
As a pin, it doesn't have to hurt. It does, however, have to ensure that uke cannot rise up again and take control.

Bokuto suburi, especially tsuki, is good for developing yonkyo.

Janet Rosen
09-22-2012, 06:10 PM
A sequential lock up the arm to shoulder and then to center, with the feel of a sword, is also how I was taught and prefer to use it.

robin_jet_alt
09-22-2012, 07:07 PM
As best as I can understand is that the pain is an optional bonus, but the leverage is the key and they should go down regardless of whether it hurts or not. There are always a few freaks* who never seem to feel pain no matter who does yonkyo on them. But they still get their faces driven into the mat if someone knows how to do it well.

* I mean 'freak' in the nicest, friendliest, least insulting way possible :).

I agree. To put yonkyo on, you get off the line and then use the forearm to put uke's elbow through their face. The hyperextension of the shoulder that this creates is what puts them on the ground.

In order to get the pain as well, grip uke's wrist with your thumb and your little finger only. The little finger should be in the crook of the wrist. Extend your index finger, and don't squeeze. Then just do the movement described above. The technique will naturally happen.

Having said all that, yonkyo is by far my least favorite technique. I find the pain response to be unreliable, and even though the rest of it is a valid technique, given the choice, I would do either ikkyo or sankyo instead.

Mary Eastland
09-22-2012, 08:04 PM
I like yonkyo...it is challenging.

For me it reminds me the most literally of sword work. Having the hands move congruently with the hips helps. Some people can't ever feel the pain of the pressure point, yet the technique can become dependable though repeated practice.

When you have your hands on uke don't use your fingertips... use your whole hands instead. I focus on taking balance rather than looking for pain. Patience.. definilty with yourself and each uke...because they all different.
Just some random thoughts...have fun

LinTal
09-23-2012, 09:32 PM
Having the mental image of casting my uke's arm like a fishing line helps me often.

phitruong
09-25-2012, 07:30 AM
ikkyo first then flow into yonkyo or you could say it's short grip ikkyo with a hip rotation and weight drop. personally, i have problem with the elbow in the face approach where you are in range of the other fist or a low side kick or tall uke who would just laugh at you while you are on your tippy toes. or the find the pain point approach where you don't have the other person balance and while you try to find the point, they pasted you.

sankyo is spiral in and up. yonkyo is spiral down and out. sort of a opposite of each other.

of course the higher level of yonkyo is yoinkyo. :)

Adam Huss
09-25-2012, 10:48 PM
On the ride home from the dojo tonight, my buddy said his dog helped him find the kyusho portion of yonkyo. He just started aikido recently. One night we started training yonkyo and he immediately recognized the kyusho application because his dog sometimes clamps his mouth around my friends arm and takes him to the ground in what is basically yonkyo...with the pressure point application. He has a giant sheepdog.

Adam Huss
09-25-2012, 10:50 PM
Anybody else to 'tenkan' version of yonkyo?

JJF
09-26-2012, 05:59 AM
On the ride home from the dojo tonight, my buddy said his dog helped him find the kyusho portion of yonkyo. He just started aikido recently. One night we started training yonkyo and he immediately recognized the kyusho application because his dog sometimes clamps his mouth around my friends arm and takes him to the ground in what is basically yonkyo...with the pressure point application. He has a giant sheepdog.

Aikido-g ?

My dog does a really beautiful forward ukemi when it is pretend fighting with it's friend (a golden retriever four houses up the road).

Apart from that I didn't start to do good yonkyo until I stopped focusing on the pressure point and started thinking about just placing my body in the right spot and keeping the balance of uke on top of my hand.

It seems whenever I have truble with a throw or a lock I need to remember to move the tip of the sword instead of making the technique small. It usually helps a lot :)

JJ

lars beyer
09-27-2012, 05:09 PM
Anybody else to 'tenkan' version of yonkyo?

Do you mean yonkyo ura waza ? In that case yes.

aiki-jujutsuka
09-28-2012, 07:16 AM
We call it Yondan in AJJ and as a kyu grade I don't have much experience, but I am aware of the gakun grips used and I have had one lesson in the kata. I have found that I naturally want to apply yondan techniques in my knife defence. My sensei knows of my tendancy to apply yondan gakuns in knife defence and has given me some advice, which has been very useful to me but I know it will take years of practice to be able to apply them effectively everytime. I am beginning to see the progression in the different katas we learn from Shodan to Nidan and Sandan to Yondan. I am beginning to make the connections in my mind and body of the power of smaller techniques such as yondan for leverage and compliancy. :)

Cliff Judge
09-28-2012, 11:04 AM
We call it Yondan in AJJ and as a kyu grade I don't have much experience, but I am aware of the gakun grips used and I have had one lesson in the kata. I have found that I naturally want to apply yondan techniques in my knife defence. My sensei knows of my tendancy to apply yondan gakuns in knife defence and has given me some advice, which has been very useful to me but I know it will take years of practice to be able to apply them effectively everytime. I am beginning to see the progression in the different katas we learn from Shodan to Nidan and Sandan to Yondan. I am beginning to make the connections in my mind and body of the power of smaller techniques such as yondan for leverage and compliancy. :)

What art do you practice again? Just curious if you know where the pressure point is in your technique? The one that I learned as standard Aikido is on the underside of the arm, on a line that comes down from the little finger...somewhere along there. Either at the wrist or further towards the elbow.

aiki-jujutsuka
09-28-2012, 12:42 PM
I practice Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu. I am very much a novice when it comes to Yondan but I apply the knuckle of my index finger to the inner part of the forearm somewhere between two or three inches up the forearm. I try to put my body weight into it through my hips rather than using strength in the grip, however I can't get it to work on everyone and sometimes I try to compensate with grip strength niavely. As I said I have much practice to perfect it yet but I do find Yondan inspiring, I love practising it.

Krystal Locke
09-29-2012, 10:26 AM
I try to put my body weight into it through my hips rather than using strength in the grip, however I can't get it to work on everyone and sometimes I try to compensate with grip strength niavely.

Try putting their body weight into it.....

Mark Gibbons
09-29-2012, 07:58 PM
You could get extra yonkyo practice during morotedori techniques. ;) Some teachers have encouraged that.

Mark

robin_jet_alt
09-29-2012, 09:24 PM
You could get extra yonkyo practice during morotedori techniques. ;) Some teachers have encouraged that.

Mark

Depends on the sensei though. Some people don't like you when you do that. Personally, I find it to be helpful because if someone can put yonkyo on you, you probably aren't doing it right.

Andrew S
09-29-2012, 09:36 PM
Does anyone else have a slightly different grip between omote and ura technique? I was taught to press the point near the middle of the wrist for omote, and a point on the thumb-side of the wrist for ura.

Mikemac
09-30-2012, 11:35 PM
Funny...This just came up on my current test.....

It seems that the radial nerve they told me to press for Yonkyo isn't on that spot. The radial is actually on the backside of the wrist, not the inner part. What was being pressed was the tendon on the bone. No wonder yonkyo hurts the next day.

My grip uses the knuckle on the thumb to press the radial nerve. Seems to work better for me and Uke feels it for sure.

TheAikidoka
11-28-2012, 12:13 PM
Hi all,
Yes I do yonkyo slightly differently, and I do not rely on pain compliance to perform the technique.
Start from Migi hanmi & Uke attacks with Ai hanmi, proceed with ikkyo, when you have stepped in with the left foot taking uke`s balance, now at this point slip your left hand down uke`s arm to your right hand which should be gripping Uke`s wrist firmly.
Now raise uke`s arm as in bokken suburi, but as you raise the arm uke`s elbow should be pointing straight upwards twist your hips towards uke (to the left) and as you cut downwards turn your hips to the right and imagine that uke`s elbow is the tip of a bokken and cut it toward the floor, keep twisitng the hips until uke is down.
In the ura version, as you are about to cut downwards perform tenkan off the left foot and twist your hips outwards away from uke, the cutting motion and the tenkan together will whip uke around you.
None of this is performed witth the thought of making uke compliant through pain. It is the hip turns and cutting motion that makes uke down.

Hope this helps,

Andy B

Tom Verhoeven
11-28-2012, 12:41 PM
I think it helps to think of yonkyo as a gripping technique first. The main lesson of yonkyo, to me, is the way in which you use your hand and transmit power from your hand to the target (most likely the lower arm. Once you understand this you can do yonkyo anywhere you can grab, and all your yonkyo's will be powerful.

When looking at the classic yonkyo. It will be easiest to work on the lowest part of the arm possible, and try to find an uke who doesn't have a large forearm in the beginning. When looking for the "yonkyo spot" don't mover around quickly, moving your hand every time you're not on the mark. Instead slowly move around the lower arm until you see a reaction from uke, then work in that area. here's a video that might help:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/oldasc/content/?p=218

Nice video - just saw it twice - good overview of yonkyo examples.

And Bach - well, that makes even a painfull technique like dai yonkyo feel nice!

Tom

Tom Verhoeven
11-28-2012, 12:45 PM
On the ride home from the dojo tonight, my buddy said his dog helped him find the kyusho portion of yonkyo. He just started aikido recently. One night we started training yonkyo and he immediately recognized the kyusho application because his dog sometimes clamps his mouth around my friends arm and takes him to the ground in what is basically yonkyo...with the pressure point application. He has a giant sheepdog.

My dog does that too. She also has thrown me several times using kote gaeshi - including applying the kyusho point near the little finger!

Tom

lbb
11-30-2012, 11:03 AM
Well, I'm convinced that I have a big fat yonkyo target painted on my back (or my forearms, whatever). Yonkyo works on me like whoa. And there may be a pressure point involved, but there's more than that, because I always get a nasty bruise.

Krystal Locke
11-30-2012, 11:58 AM
So, we're chicks doing a martial art, we bruise from yonkyo, ikkyo, getting looked at funny, and we are sometimes kinda quiet and evasive about being badassed blackbelt ninjacutie budo babes.

Am I the only one who has had the talking to from my doc at the annual look under the hood? "You know, Krystal, if something isn't going well at home, you can tell me...."

Took me a couple years and inviting my doc to a belt test before she really believed I wasn't getting the crap beat out of me by some bubba at home.

phitruong
11-30-2012, 03:01 PM
Well, I'm convinced that I have a big fat yonkyo target painted on my back (or my forearms, whatever). Yonkyo works on me like whoa. And there may be a pressure point involved, but there's more than that, because I always get a nasty bruise.

have you thought of duct taping your wrists? :)

ramenboy
11-30-2012, 10:29 PM
...Am I the only one who has had the talking to from my doc at the annual look under the hood? "You know, Krystal, if something isn't going well at home, you can tell me...."

Took me a couple years and inviting my doc to a belt test before she really believed I wasn't getting the crap beat out of me by some bubba at home.

Hahahaha I made the mistake of wearing short sleeves to work one day after a good nite of aikido. I sat back in my chair and put my hands behind my head to relax and my coworker looked at the bruises and said , 'dude, if you were 12, I'd be callin the DCFS right now...'

Janet Rosen
12-01-2012, 12:50 AM
When I first started training in aikido I was also, among other things, doing some staff training of the nurses' aides working at home hospice. Had to do their annual class on recognizing and reporting senior abuse. Came in with PERFECT constellation of forearm bruises that day :-)
Actually I rarely bruise from anything in the dojo anymore and when I do the arnica gel works wonders.

lbb
12-01-2012, 02:56 PM
have you thought of duct taping your wrists? :)

Haha, funny guy...

Duct tape is a good emergency preventive for blisters. For bruises, not so much.

Derek
12-03-2012, 10:27 AM
I've always found that people misunderstand the pressure necessary for this technique and are prone to crushing the arm. This bunches up the muscle and gets it in your way. For beginners I have them start by clasping their own forearms, palm to palm. Slide the hands down until the heels of the hands touch, now you are in the right spot. With a partner, have beginners start at sankyo then then relax the wrist so that the palm faces them. Grip the lower part of the arm, just above the wrist with the pinkie and ring fingers, then pivot off that point and apply pressure with the ridge hand/first knuckle of the index finger. A great excercise for this is to have people practice on their steering wheel. Grip with the pinkie and press with the ridge hand. To demonstrate the lack of crushing, I also will apply this technique by making a ring of left and right index fingers and thumbs with the uke's wrist in the middle, and applying yonkyo by rotating the ring without any grasping. It is true that the pain compliance portion of this technique does not work on everyone, but boy does it work on those it works on! I also really enjoy this techniqe applied to the inside of the shin/ankle.