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Andrew Macdonald
09-06-2012, 08:03 PM
why is it that so many practioners of aikido have such an inferiority complex about being a martial art? now i am not saying this baout all people i know that there are many people that are secure in what they do, but in all the arts i have studied there seems to be more of an issue with aikidoka being uncomfortable with what they do.

Dave Gallagher
09-06-2012, 08:27 PM
Perhaps it's because they listen to what some non Aikido people say about the effectivness of it and they foolishly believe it. I don't know any Aikidoka who have an inferiority complex about the art.
I will say that I used to work security as a sceond job. It was in a housing complex in a bad part of town. Having been forced to control a few would be bad guys, I can't see any reason to feel that Aikido is inferior to any other martrial art.
I think it depends on who you train with and how you train.

Andrew Macdonald
09-06-2012, 08:41 PM
yeah you're probably right, as to hw this complex is reveled. i have had a few conversation with aikido people and other MA people and sometimes it has turned out with the aikido person becoming quite defensive about the practicallity of his art. i have to say at this point that i laso study aiki and don;t see the reson for this but other people for sure seem to constantly want to tell other MA how aikido is a real killer art and much tougher than karate etc.

sakumeikan
09-07-2012, 02:34 AM
why is it that so many practioners of aikido have such an inferiority complex about being a martial art? now i am not saying this baout all people i know that there are many people that are secure in what they do, but in all the arts i have studied there seems to be more of an issue with aikidoka being uncomfortable with what they do.

Dear Andrew,
Maybe they are inferior? Joe.

SeiserL
09-07-2012, 06:47 AM
I have found many people in many different martial arts suffer from inferiority complexes.

Often the arrogant ones are also accommodating for feeling inferior.

Perhaps that's part of the drive, intent, and opportunity of training in any martial arts.

The secure ones just train.

lbb
09-07-2012, 07:22 AM
why is it that so many practioners of aikido have such an inferiority complex about being a martial art? now i am not saying this baout all people i know that there are many people that are secure in what they do, but in all the arts i have studied there seems to be more of an issue with aikidoka being uncomfortable with what they do.

All the arts you've studied? How many arts is that, and what's your experience in them? What's your experience in aikido?

I'm not challenging your training, but I am challenging your generalization. You're claiming that "so many practitioners of aikido" have a certain form of neurosis, and that this doesn't exist to nearly such an extent in other martial arts. I don't have a problem with someone saying, "I trained at a karate dojo for two years and a judo dojo for three years, and now I've trained at this aikido dojo for three years, and I have to say, people at my aikido dojo have this weird thing..." It's when someone makes broad generalizations and asserts large-scale trends as you have done that I want to see the data.

I'm also curious if you've noticed a trend in the demographic of people who have this attitude. Do you observe this across the board, irrespective of age, gender, etc.? Or do you see some patterns?

Brian Beach
09-07-2012, 08:26 AM
I find the ones that have studied something else before don't, the ones that haven't studied something else question more. If you studied a striking art you can see the theory behind what Aikido is doing. If you have no concept of being hit or what a hit is, the edges can be squishy and ill defined. On the flip side it's hard to do good ukemi if you don't know where you are in danger.

aiki-jujutsuka
09-07-2012, 08:42 AM
One of the reasons I started Aiki-Jujutsu was because I used to do Judo and was taught that Judo meant the 'Gentle Way'. I then learnt that another way of translating and expressing 'Ju' was to yield. I then began to understand alot more what it meant by gentle. The 'art of yielding' is how I interpret Jujutsu and it is training my body and mind to become adept at this science that inspires my imagination and motivates me. When people talk about their old karate days etc. and how much drilling they were put through I don't feel inferior because for me to be 'hard' and fight strength with strength doesn't appeal to me. I have chosen my path and one day I hope to be the best Jujutsuka I can be and hopefully inspire others. I think it's about being honest with what your art does and does not do or teach. If there are Aikidoka who feel so insecure then perhaps they are ill at ease with the philosophy of blending and harmonizing and this is something that needs addressing - how do they want to resolve conflict situations? Which path do they want to take?

graham christian
09-07-2012, 09:24 AM
It's no doubt true and no doubt true in other arts too. I would say it's not necessary to look for patterns etc. but rather to understand that many people in all walks of life are not comfortable with who they are are what they are doing and why.

This alone leads to thinking they need more and more and all different kinds of things and 'other' methods to fill that hole of insecurity and inferiority.

Find your way, be happy. Love your way and you can then also love others ways. Thus there is nothing to feel inferior about.

Peace.G.

aikishihan
09-07-2012, 09:48 AM
Eleanor Roosevelt is credited with saying "no one can disrespect you without your permission.". If you indeed have an inferiority complex, it is you that put it there, nurturing it and giving it affirmations on a daily basis. Find the strength within to say to yourself "Stop!", and commit yourself to honest training and reconstructing a healthy self image, and that "complex" will disappear, guaranteed. Go for it.

Rob Watson
09-07-2012, 10:47 AM
Aikido guy gets defensive ... come on that is funny!

Conrad Gus
09-07-2012, 11:04 AM
Aikido isn't very effective until you've been doing it for quite a while. Other martial arts, like karate, teach techniques that can be very effective with less training time. When you compare a 2-year aikido person to a 2-year karate person, it is easy to come to the conclusion that aikido is not effective.

Compounding this phenomenon is that it is really hard to understand what is going on in higher-level aikido just by watching it, especially if you don't have experience in the art. It's also easy to find examples of aikido where the person demonstrating is still on the journey to mastery (not to say that they "suck") and take it as an example of aikido in general.

I think it is a perception problem, not a problem with aikido itself.

Conrad

Shadowfax
09-07-2012, 07:26 PM
Aikido guy gets defensive ... come on that is funny!

LOL :D

I think I have to agree with Graham on this one. well put.

aiki-jujutsuka
09-08-2012, 07:03 AM
It's no doubt true and no doubt true in other arts too. I would say it's not necessary to look for patterns etc. but rather to understand that many people in all walks of life are not comfortable with who they are are what they are doing and why.

This alone leads to thinking they need more and more and all different kinds of things and 'other' methods to fill that hole of insecurity and inferiority.

Find your way, be happy. Love your way and you can then also love others ways. Thus there is nothing to feel inferior about.

Peace.G.

well said Graham :)

Michael Hackett
09-08-2012, 09:01 AM
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Rosevelt

Mrs. Roosevelt never attended Boot Camp.

Mary Eastland
09-08-2012, 09:21 AM
Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings are in you.

Uke can resist but the resistance that nage feels is nage's feeling.

aikishihan
09-08-2012, 11:38 AM
If Mrs. Roosevelt DID attend boot camp, she would've brought the cannolies. Nonetheless, She WAS mired in a loveless marriage. She remains a true heroine.

Michael Hackett
09-08-2012, 12:48 PM
She was certainly a heroine to some. Others, not so much.

Michael Hackett
09-08-2012, 12:52 PM
Two different things, Mary. One is an internal emotion and the other is an actual physical perception. They are unrelated, but a physical perception can trigger an emotion. I can feel and perceive the kiss of a baby on my cheek and then experience the emotion of happiness at the action.

lbb
09-08-2012, 03:25 PM
She was certainly a heroine to some. Others, not so much.

Yeah, that whole integration and equal rights thing, that sure stuck in some people's craws. Still does, apparently.

akiy
09-08-2012, 10:27 PM
Hi folks,

Let's try to keep the topic pertinent to the subject in the original post.

Otherwise, please start new threads for new topics in their appropriate places.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Andrew Macdonald
09-09-2012, 08:04 AM
hi Mary to answer your question about my experience

i have been involved in the maritial arts for 18 year

I hold black belts in both ITF taekwondo and Aikido
I studied both Taekwondo and aikido in 3 different countries

I have laso studiedchinese internal martial arts and Krav maga in that time

I originally come from a small city in which the was a community of serious martial artists, so no matter what art you studued we would meet and chat about various martial a topics and attend seminars byvisiting masters of other schools.

Where i live now this doesn't happen so much which makes me pine for the old days

anyway, thats for another thread :)

Andrew Macdonald
09-09-2012, 08:11 AM
opps forgot the second part of your post

demographic this is an excellent question and one i have not thoughtof

i don;t think i can pick one specifically out though, i have see older younger both male and female. i am not sure what the common thing would be, maybe as other people have stated they are just insecure people.

lbb
09-09-2012, 06:30 PM
Hi Andrew, thanks for responding. At the risk of generalizing, I'd say that sparring styles allow their practitioners to develop a belief that they know how to fight (I've heard of MMA schools that actually call their sparring bouts "fights"), and that that's probably the difference, insofar as there is one.

Andrew Macdonald
09-09-2012, 09:15 PM
interesting point Mary,

I was reading an article by anothr martial artist the other day and he sated that there can be three reason to study martial arts these are

- fighting (including sport fighting)
- self protection
- Martial study

these three items have some overlap but in the main are quite different. maybe if one is studying an art that focuses on something other than your reason for training it could cause a prson some issue. how they deal with that issue is up to them

phitruong
09-11-2012, 08:28 AM
it's not so much as inferiority complex. it's more so with confusion. if you noticed the general source of confusion came mostly from men, and some women who are really men in the inside, and animal kingdom that looked like aikidoka. Thus us men know that we are manly and we practice martial arts which is a very manly pursuit, which is different from the WWE pursuit, which is a glorified chip-n-dale club (we want that too but we don't have the body for it nor can we take those sort of ukemi). as a manly pursuit, we feel proud and powerful and dignify and ...well manly. then we put on the funny skirt in aikido which causes various feelings. feelings that rise from the hidden depth within us. feelings that make us giggle, and cuddly and lovey-dopey and want to talk about feelings all the time and ...well feminine. it just brings the little girl out of us. This is countered to the manly side which cause us to question our manhood, for some, womanhood, and animal-hood, and occasionally car-hood. so we defend our position with vigor (in some case, with igor) that we are kick-ass martial artists who are loveable and cuddly and with feelings, in hope that we can pick up hot chicks at the local pubs, which is rarely the case since we tend to giggle, in a manly kind of way.

*ps does anyone know where we can get large supply of Velcro kakama? also where we can get the WWE thong?*

Chris Evans
09-11-2012, 10:18 AM
aside from the nebulous "philosophy," the physics of unarmed combat/protection are universal, although we have vary array of different names given to focus/specialization...that is either strikes (by contact or with projectiles (bullets) or by extensions (knife, bats, sticks, etc.) or seizes (grapple, take down, throw, etc).

more striking arts/sports: boxing, muay Thai, karate, some kung fu
more seizing arts/sports: wrestling, jiu-jitsu, judo, aikido, jujutsu, some kung fu(?)
more blending arts/sports: hapkido, kajukenbo, MMA, some kungfu

arts work on theory of movement, building effective "structure" or habits, while sports give venue to application and its feedback with prizes.

practicing "arts" with more than three years of continual training in hapkido then in karate has led me to believe that it's possible to blend in good waza from any art, from a sensei/instructor with depth of experience and with an open mind.

the few months of aikido exposure leads me to think that aikido physics are effective (obviously!), but takes more patience and faith to ingrain its habits than does kickboxing..which is complicated by the fact that there maybe many fee paying students who do not appreciate hard training with partners offering appropriate resistance or forceful attacks... perhaps it's this lack of competitive "heat" makes some aikidoka feel wary?

in sporting karate/TKD tournaments and in competitive sparring I have felt the reassuring effectiveness of a fast lead leg heel side kick that stops the other's full speed attack or have felt the crushing pain of a shin round kick to above my knee that took me down. Without these "friendly yet heated debates to sort things out I can see how some aikidoka may not have full confidence on their waza vs. an unpredictable and forceful contact.

Osu

jonreading
09-11-2012, 12:15 PM
I believe that aikido experiences both an inferiority complex within the art and it also carries a stereotype outside of the art. I am not sure I would qualify either issue as "large", but I have heard and seem my share of both.

Aikido is not the only art whose practitioners are insecure in their "martial" feasibility and I do not think it is uncommon to hear other arts express similar issues. Nor do I think we should just settle it in the ring, as sport arts have their own issues with which to contend. As Takahashi sensei implied I think we, as a community, have an obligation to address this issue amongst ourselves and drive each other to improve if we have doubts about our skill.

Second, Aikido is recovering from a period of...err... ineffectiveness in action. Thank you, YouTube. I think many influential leaders recognized some of the larger issues facing the art and are in the process of addressing them. Some of our... extreme... practitioners do not improve our image in the eyes of our sister arts. Stop the ki balls please.

Finally, as a personal observation, I think we sometimes also look down our nose at other arts. I can quote from this forum how we view karate thugs and judo animals, etc. It is awfully difficult to express ethos when the guy you're critiquing could where your heart strings for bootlaces.

TokyoZeplin
09-11-2012, 01:34 PM
Finally, as a personal observation, I think we sometimes also look down our nose at other arts

Definitely something you see both here, and many other places on the web (YouTube, blogs, other forums, etc.).
I actually think it stems from the inferiority complex. You'll see people far over-exaggerating how amazing Aikido is, like it is some kind of Godly invincible force that should be feared by all. Too many times have I read that Aikido isn't used in MMA "because it would instantly kill the opponent" or "because using Aikido for real is just too dangerous" (whereas in the reality, there's many other reasons why Aikido isn't used (such as having trouble with people wearing thick glows, lack of attacks, general lack of fight training in most dojos, problems working in a cage-confined setting, lack of ground game, etc.)).

Just as many times you see someone clearly feeling insecure about Aikido (some outright stating that they practice it, "but know it doesn't work"), you see someone going overboard on the other end of the spectrum.

lbb
09-11-2012, 01:48 PM
There's a point at which the armchair psychoanalysis of people you don't know and will never meet ceases to be interesting and potentially useful discussion fodder, and becomes pure projection. When you feel yourself settling in for a good hashing-over of someone else's character, it's usually time to take a good hard look at your own.

Cliff Judge
09-11-2012, 02:08 PM
There is so little in Aikido that makes you feel like you are doing well or getting better. When you lose faith in yourself and try to step out of your comfort zone, maybe by sparring with someone who practices something more sparring-oriented, or exposing yourself to a different system, you generally don't find that you were wrong about sucking.

My belief is that spending too much time in a sparring or sport system really gives you false confidence that the ring equates to a live fight, but false confidence is still a kind of confidence.

grondahl
09-11-2012, 03:16 PM
There is so little in Aikido that makes you feel like you are doing well or getting better. When you lose faith in yourself and try to step out of your comfort zone, maybe by sparring with someone who practices something more sparring-oriented, or exposing yourself to a different system, you generally don't find that you were wrong about sucking.

My belief is that spending too much time in a sparring or sport system really gives you false confidence that the ring equates to a live fight, but false confidence is still a kind of confidence.

I like the first part of your post. The basic feeling in aikido si more or less: If a technique feels good, you need to work on your awereness. I like it, there´s always something that needs polishing.

About the second part: The sportfighters I´ve met have been much more humble about the difference between their practice and a real fight than many aikido-practitioners that I´ve met.

I think it´s very natural that most aikidoka are unsecure about their abilities, how confident would you be in your swiming abilities in open water if your only experience were practicing the movements on dry land or in a very shallow pool?

Michael Hackett
09-11-2012, 03:20 PM
Sage observation Ms. Mamros.

gregstec
09-11-2012, 05:12 PM
Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings are in you.


If you ever had a military Drill Instructor screaming in your face and dressing you up one side and then down the other with choice expletives at the tender age of 18 or so, you know how well they can get inside your head - been there, and had it done - how about you?

Greg

Mary Eastland
09-11-2012, 05:47 PM
You know not what you ask.

Anthony Loeppert
09-11-2012, 06:04 PM
If you ever had a military Drill Instructor screaming in your face and dressing you up one side and then down the other with choice expletives at the tender age of 18 or so, you know how well they can get inside your head - been there, and had it done - how about you?


You know not what you ask.

From the peanut gallery, it seemed like a simple yes or no question to me.

Mark Mueller
09-11-2012, 07:53 PM
"If you ever had a military Drill Instructor screaming in your face and dressing you up one side and then down the other with choice expletives at the tender age of 18 or so, you know how well they can get inside your head - been there, and had it done - how about you?"

That is no particular badge of honor.....no need to throw it out there. People can get inside your head in a variety of ways. The point still stands...they only get in your head if you let them.....which all of us are susceptible to.....

gregstec
09-11-2012, 08:30 PM
"If you ever had a military Drill Instructor screaming in your face and dressing you up one side and then down the other with choice expletives at the tender age of 18 or so, you know how well they can get inside your head - been there, and had it done - how about you?"

That is no particular badge of honor.....no need to throw it out there. People can get inside your head in a variety of ways. The point still stands...they only get in your head if you let them.....which all of us are susceptible to.....

Never said it was a badge of honor, and I did not throw it out there, I simply responded to someone's comment to someone else that did throw it out there. My point was that people do get inside your head because you have placed yourself in an environment that allows it to happen - you just can't walk away from it or ignore it in a boot camp environment - those that have been there know that, and those that have not, have absolutely no clue what it is like and should not be making assumptions on what their behavior would be if they were there.

When I was in boot camp in 71, we had people crying for their mothers at night in their racks, and even had actual suicides - you just can't imagine the mental stress that environment brings, and you can not ignore it. Of course, this was during a time where harsh and demeaning language was the norm, and actual physical peer hazing was not only tolerated but encouraged - I understand boot camp is not that bad today, but it is still very stressful nonetheless.

Greg

gregstec
09-11-2012, 08:38 PM
You know not what you ask.

What exactly do you mean by that response? You made an authoritative comment about what it is like in boot camp and I disagreed with it and essentially asked for info on your experiences that could support your initial statement - simple as that.

Greg

aiki-jujutsuka
09-12-2012, 01:24 AM
I know this may sound perverse, but occassionally I browse youtube looking at cctv footage of street fights/night club brawls just to give me a real life impression of the kind of danger I may face in a real street fight. The majority of the time the people swing wild haymakers looking to knock out the other person; sometimes they brawl and go to the ground, which usually ends up with the one on top pummelling the other in a sort of ground and pound assault. Never have I watched any video and thought my AJJ training has not prepared me for that. We regularly practise applied techniques for such self-defence situations. The challenge is not whether the techniques of the art are effective but intensity and aggression. It is very hard to simulate real aggression in the dojo. My instructors may say strike as hard as you can, to which we do only for them to give us a dead arm from their soggy blocks. But power is different to aggression. It's intensity not technique.

The irony of the whole MMA thing is that pro fighters wouldn't even be out at bars or clubs while training for a fight because they need to ensure that their bodies are in peak condition for fight night. Their lives are so regimented and strict - they aren't out in the early hours because they need to rest properly. Besides no fighter would risk injury or jeapordising their careers for a street fight. You don't need to do MMA to learn how to effectively defend yourselves.

lbb
09-12-2012, 07:32 AM
What exactly do you mean by that response? You made an authoritative comment about what it is like in boot camp and I disagreed with it and essentially asked for info on your experiences that could support your initial statement - simple as that.

Granted that the response was perhaps unnecessarily cryptic (or perhaps necessarily so), but I think perhaps this tentacle of the discussion is verging on reductionist and perhaps unintentionally confrontational. I understand that the boot camp example was just that, one example...it was, wasn't it, and not some kind of statement that boot camp is the ultimate getting-in-your-head challenge that human beings will ever face? The problem is, in the US we live in a culture that venerates the military sometimes to excess -- by which I mean that our veneration sometimes takes an ugly turn into disparagement of anything else, discrediting of the validity of the views of anyone who has not served in the military, etc. So, I think the use of military experiences as benchmark examples can sometimes backfire a bit.

At the same time, the famous quote "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent" and its many derivatives is in much the same category: true, at least technically, but not always helpful. It has become a platitude. The statement itself encompasses extremes of duress and endurance, but it can, and often is, used in a rather glib fashion by people who have experienced no such extremes and who do not respect the trials of those who have. I confess that my usual reaction on hearing it is, "What the hell do you know?"

The military is an example of what I believe sociologists call a total institution, where a person does not have a normal level of autonomy. Prison is another example, so is a cloistered religious community, so is a cult. One would hope that a martial art is not. In a total institution, while it is theoretically true that no one can make you feel inferior (or anything else) without your consent, you have little ability to change your condition, even to simply get people to leave you in peace. All you can do is try to learn the system so you come out on the top side of the rules. That's got nothing to do with superiority, inferiority, or belief in either.

Rambling on...

gregstec
09-12-2012, 09:08 AM
Granted that the response was perhaps unnecessarily cryptic (or perhaps necessarily so), but I think perhaps this tentacle of the discussion is verging on reductionist and perhaps unintentionally confrontational. I understand that the boot camp example was just that, one example...it was, wasn't it, and not some kind of statement that boot camp is the ultimate getting-in-your-head challenge that human beings will ever face? The problem is, in the US we live in a culture that venerates the military sometimes to excess -- by which I mean that our veneration sometimes takes an ugly turn into disparagement of anything else, discrediting of the validity of the views of anyone who has not served in the military, etc. So, I think the use of military experiences as benchmark examples can sometimes backfire a bit.

At the same time, the famous quote "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent" and its many derivatives is in much the same category: true, at least technically, but not always helpful. It has become a platitude. The statement itself encompasses extremes of duress and endurance, but it can, and often is, used in a rather glib fashion by people who have experienced no such extremes and who do not respect the trials of those who have. I confess that my usual reaction on hearing it is, "What the hell do you know?"

The military is an example of what I believe sociologists call a total institution, where a person does not have a normal level of autonomy. Prison is another example, so is a cloistered religious community, so is a cult. One would hope that a martial art is not. In a total institution, while it is theoretically true that no one can make you feel inferior (or anything else) without your consent, you have little ability to change your condition, even to simply get people to leave you in peace. All you can do is try to learn the system so you come out on the top side of the rules. That's got nothing to do with superiority, inferiority, or belief in either.

Rambling on...

Yes, the boot camp example is just one example of an environment where people can get into your head; and it is by design. One of the core objectives of boot camp is to break down the individual and build up the team member that follows orders - there is just no time for a democratic discussion in a combat situation.

One of the points of my initial post was objecting to someone making a statement about the boot camp environment as if they had first hand experience with it that was very contrary to the experience of others I know that do have the experience - so, I essentially asked for more detail associated with that person's boot camp experience - that is all. Now if that person has no boot camp experience, then a more appropriate comment from them should have been something like this: "Even though I have no boot camp experience, I do have experiences that I feel are very similar and I think that........" I would have had no issue with that type of comment.

Greg