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bob_stra
08-30-2012, 12:15 PM
Here's a fun little clip that's popped up in a MMA forum (of all places). It seems to be getting some air time due to Tanoyama "unusual strength".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWXufM4CkdU

It's interesting to watch his fights. Being so obviously under-weight (compared to his opponents) means Tanoyama is pretty fun to watch. Perhaps not quite 'pure water' (IMHO), but he moves, throws, clashes and redirects like someone who means business.

Mary Eastland
08-30-2012, 01:36 PM
He never looks like he is "trying". He is doing.

David Orange
08-30-2012, 10:10 PM
Here's a fun little clip that's popped up in a MMA forum (of all places). It seems to be getting some air time due to Tanoyama "unusual strength".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWXufM4CkdU

It's interesting to watch his fights. Being so obviously under-weight (compared to his opponents) means Tanoyama is pretty fun to watch. Perhaps not quite 'pure water' (IMHO), but he moves, throws, clashes and redirects like someone who means business.

Wow! One of the best sumotori I've ever seen. Quite unusual to see a foreign sumotori who is so..almost slim! Looks like he's really mastered the art. He should make yokozuna.

Josh Lerner
08-31-2012, 12:45 AM
Very impressive video. It's interesting to see him use a Russian tie a few times, since it's something I'm not used to seeing in Sumo. It doesn't seem to lead to anything useful in this context, maybe because you can't really attack the legs, or maybe it doesn't work as well when you are generally fighting guys who are significantly larger than you. Although he does seem to use it very effectively as a way of diverting his opponent when they are coming straight at him, especially with the guys who over-commit. A few nice arm drags too, which I'm also not used to seeing in Sumo much. Or are they used, and I haven't just seen enough Sumo? Does anyone if that is the case?

Josh

Tengu859
08-31-2012, 02:13 AM
Very impressive video. It's interesting to see him use a Russian tie a few times, since it's something I'm not used to seeing in Sumo. It doesn't seem to lead to anything useful in this context, maybe because you can't really attack the legs, or maybe it doesn't work as well when you are generally fighting guys who are significantly larger than you. Although he does seem to use it very effectively as a way of diverting his opponent when they are coming straight at him, especially with the guys who over-commit. A few nice arm drags too, which I'm also not used to seeing in Sumo much. Or are they used, and I haven't just seen enough Sumo? Does anyone if that is the case?

Josh

Hi Josh,

In the book, Dynamic Sumo, there is a technique called katasukashi-throwing an opponent down by grabbing the arm he is thrusting with. I don't know much about sumo, but love to watch it when I get the chance... :0)

Take Care,
ChrisW

Budd
08-31-2012, 09:32 AM
That guy is my hero. Great use of Western wrestling alongside "unusual strength" in a sumo context. Love it.

niall
08-31-2012, 09:41 PM
His name is Takanoyama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takanoyama_Shuntaro). He often goes for an armlock at the tachiai at the start of the bout. He has a background in judo and perhaps he was used to doing that from a cross grip. Also because he is very, very light for a sumo wrestler he has probably found that getting an angle at the start is more productive than trying to wrestle square on. Takanoyama goes for the armlock and then switches into other techniques.

The armbar throwing technique (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimarite) is called tottari. It's not common but a few sumo wrestlers have had it as one of their favourite techniques.

Chris Li
09-03-2012, 01:16 AM
Wow! One of the best sumotori I've ever seen. Quite unusual to see a foreign sumotori who is so..almost slim! Looks like he's really mastered the art. He should make yokozuna.

One can hope, but it would be unusual for someone that light to be able to overcome the weight disadvantage given the constraints imposed by the situation.

Mainoumi, for example, was about the same size (around 220lbs), and an excellent technician, but he could never quite make it up to the top ranks (although he did do pretty well).

Best,

Chris

ChrisHein
09-19-2012, 01:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWXufM4CkdU

This is simply a highlight real, so he doesn't always win all of his bouts, or do it in such fine fashion. But this guy is showing us an example of what skill, mental fortitude and good "Aiki" can do. Not to say this guy studied "Aikido", be he has what I would describe as "Aiki". Check out 1:46 about as nice of an Aiki moment as one can have!

gregstec
09-20-2012, 08:49 AM
I don't see any evidence of IS nor aiki in either person - simply moving out of the way and pushing someone past you is not aiki IMO. However, I do see the use of more leverage types of movements from the little guy than the big guy; who appears to be just using his weight in a direct manner against his opponent.

Greg

ChrisHein
09-20-2012, 11:56 AM
Greg,
It depends on what you call "Aiki".
I would say he used Aiki because he made his attackers intention and action (ki) fit together (ai) with his own intention and actions.

He clearly demonstrations the four necessary steps to make an Aiki interaction. Kokyu (he is calm, grounded, and present) Musubi (he makes a connection with his partners mind, binding it with his own) Awase, (that very nice blend he used) and Musubi, (he stayed connected after the blend was over). That is what I would call Aiki.

DH
09-20-2012, 12:01 PM
I don't see any evidence of IS nor aiki in either person - simply moving out of the way and pushing someone past you is not aiki IMO. However, I do see the use of more leverage types of movements from the little guy than the big guy; who appears to be just using his weight in a direct manner against his opponent.

Greg
Hi Greg
The problem is that most people call moving out of the way with proper timing "aiki"
Which is rather interesting in itself. I would be shocked if generations of experienced Samurai considered moving out of the way as an "amazing skill"

We are reading and seeing Ueshiba outlining "aiki" in line with all the Chinese attributes for internal power. All based on In/ yo.....in you.
Which is;
a. A much more difficult endeavor
b. Has far more dramatic results.
So, I guess the question is, which is right; aiki in you or simply moving out of the way?
Moving out of the way is done by children, Grannies, football players, and just about any human moving on the planet. Seems strange to then say it takes 40 years to master moving out of the way. Why make a big deal over it since anyone can do it. Its kind of like saying I made up an art out of placing one foot in front of the other!!
Aiki as laid out by generations of Asians is a far more complex model involving moving energy within you to control a balance of forces within you, that then controls forces coming in to you. And it sure as hell cannot be done by grannies and children and football players, and for eons it blew the minds of people who encountered it....and wanted to pursue it.
In an age where your life depended on the results; experienced warriors were not so easily impressed as to go WOW!!...over moving out of the way.
Dan

DH
09-20-2012, 12:10 PM
Greg,
It depends on what you call "Aiki".
I would say he used Aiki because he made his attackers intention and action (ki) fit together (ai) with his own intention and actions.

He clearly demonstrations the four necessary steps to make an Aiki interaction. Kokyu (he is calm, grounded, and present) Musubi (he makes a connection with his partners mind, binding it with his own) Awase, (that very nice blend he used) and Musubi, (he stayed connected after the blend was over). That is what I would call Aiki.
All due respect I disagree with each definition. If that were all it was, then that entire summation is used by every budo-ka I ever met to one degree or another. So by definition Aiki is done by every person alive.
Sort of like...breath in and out.... do
Walk....do
Blink....do

I say it is far....far more complicated than that. As a study, it captured the Asians for generations. When Ueshiba exclaimed "I discovered aiki!" and "Takeda opened my eyes to true budo!" He wasn't saying....
After all these years....finally.... I found out how to move out of the way.....
Dan

gregstec
09-20-2012, 12:12 PM
Greg,
It depends on what you call "Aiki".
I would say he used Aiki because he made his attackers intention and action (ki) fit together (ai) with his own intention and actions.

He clearly demonstrations the four necessary steps to make an Aiki interaction. Kokyu (he is calm, grounded, and present) Musubi (he makes a connection with his partners mind, binding it with his own) Awase, (that very nice blend he used) and Musubi, (he stayed connected after the blend was over). That is what I would call Aiki.

Yes, it does depend on what you call aiki - and it is obvious we do not share the same view on it - there really is no need to go into detail here since the differences have been discussed ad infinitum here on the numerous internal strength/power threads over the years. :)

Greg

Chris Li
09-20-2012, 12:23 PM
Hi Greg
The problem is that most people call moving out of the way with proper timing "aiki"
Which is rather interesting in itself. I would be shocked if generations of experienced Samurai considered moving out of the way as an "amazing skill"



I always think of it as the "Hey, your shoelaces are untied!" approach. :)

Best,

Chris

ChrisHein
09-20-2012, 12:33 PM
I would be shocked if generations of experienced Samurai considered moving out of the way as an "amazing skill"

That's funny, because if you can simply "move out of the way" of anything coming your way, I would call that pretty amazing.

Why don't all the other Sumo simply "move out of the way"? How does anyone ever win a Sumo match? Actually, why does anyone ever get hit at all, why don't they just "move out of the way"? If you could master this "move out of the way" thing (and it sounds pretty simple) you could be the best boxer in the world, or maybe even the best martial artist in the world...

Sound's like a gross oversimplification to me.

DH
09-20-2012, 01:27 PM
That's funny, because if you can simply "move out of the way" of anything coming your way, I would call that pretty amazing.

Why don't all the other Sumo simply "move out of the way"? How does anyone ever win a Sumo match? Actually, why does anyone ever get hit at all, why don't they just "move out of the way"? If you could master this "move out of the way" thing (and it sounds pretty simple) you could be the best boxer in the world, or maybe even the best martial artist in the world...
You can't. No one can move out of the way all the time. It isn't a realistic approach to fighting. And even when it is occasionally successful-and it is- it still doesn't make moving out of the way...the high level strategy that would cause generations of people to be absorbed by it.
Put simply it isn't aiki- and never was.

Sound's like a gross oversimplification to me.
It is, but I didn't make the simplification in the first place. There isn't anything in it that is high level. Its run of the mill wrestling strategy that "captured" no one of significance.
My point is that Takeda, Ueshiba, and dozens like them who felt them were not so easily impressed by someone who could move out of the way.
In fact...go review the majority of comments about what Ueshiba felt like. Almost all of them were about his power. Same with Takeda.
I say this whole new redefining of aiki as external blending and moving out of the way, is a modern invention that has no real place in the history of high level arts. The work behind all of the high level arts are discussing an entirely different internal dynamic of balanced energy. And it was that...and not wrestling strategy, that made the legendary martial artists.

When they asked him to describe aiki and he got down and drew a circle explaining it was opposing energy ...He meant inside yourself. He didn't mean run around in a circle evading people.
Dan

ChrisHein
09-20-2012, 02:43 PM
You can't. No one can move out of the way all the time. It isn't a realistic approach to fighting. And even when it is occasionally successful-and it is- it still doesn't make moving out of the way...the high level strategy that would cause generations of people to be absorbed by it.


Well, unless you're talking about impressive people who seem to almost always "move out of the way" Like early Muhammad Ali, Roy Jones Jr, Anderson Silva, or other high level competitors. I mean no one is really interested in someone like Muhammad Ali, it's not like generations of people have been absorbed in thinking about how he did what he did...


Put simply it isn't aiki- and never was.

Your opinion.


It is, but I didn't make the simplification in the first place.

---Didn't you just say this?

Moving out of the way is done by children, Grannies,

Chris Li
09-20-2012, 02:52 PM
Well, unless you're talking about impressive people who seem to almost always "move out of the way" Like early Muhammad Ali, Roy Jones Jr, Anderson Silva, or other high level competitors. I mean no one is really interested in someone like Muhammad Ali, it's not like generations of people have been absorbed in thinking about how he did what he did...


There's certainly nothing wrong with avoidance, I love it.

I think what Dan is saying is that it isn't Aiki.

Not every good strategy is Aiki - I might even go so far as to say that Aiki really isn't a strategy at all, IMO.

Best,

Chris

ChrisHein
09-20-2012, 03:21 PM
I might even go so far as to say that Aiki really isn't a strategy at all, IMO.


I agree with this. Aiki is a way of being. Being connected with the world around you, including those that wish to attack you. So not a simple strategy, but a way of life.

Chris Li
09-20-2012, 03:30 PM
I agree with this. Aiki is a way of being. Being connected with the world around you, including those that wish to attack you. So not a simple strategy, but a way of life.

I think that I would define the connections to the world around you and those that wish to attack you as an effect rather a goal - which may seem a small difference, but actually changes how you do things quite a bit, IMO.

Best,

Chris

ChrisHein
09-20-2012, 04:04 PM
Being connected isn't an effect, it's a state of being. Effect denotes a change, being connected just is, the realization of this connection is the difference that is the foundation of what I would call Aiki.

You could be on boat your whole life and not realize that you're cruising down a river. The second you realize it doesn't change (have an effect on) the fact that you're on the boat. It does however mean that you can now hop off the boat, or swim along side it, or notice/look at the boat.

Chris Li
09-20-2012, 04:08 PM
Being connected isn't an effect, it's a state of being. Effect denotes a change, being connected just is, the realization of this connection is the difference that is the foundation of what I would call Aiki.

You could be on boat your whole life and not realize that you're cruising down a river. The second you realize it doesn't change (have an effect on) the fact that you're on the boat. It does however mean that you can now hop off the boat, or swim along side it, or notice/look at the boat.

Wouldn't you call:

I would say he used Aiki because he made his attackers intention and action (ki) fit together (ai) with his own intention and actions.

Effecting a change?

Best,

Chris

ChrisHein
09-20-2012, 05:36 PM
Yes something happened. I would call that something aiki. Realizing that there is a connection is the first part (kokyu, then musubi) the next part was the awase, and after the blend he demonstrated zanshin. The whole interaction was Aiki, he used his understanding or the attackers intention (via their connectio) to make Aiki (energy fitting together).

DH
09-22-2012, 10:51 AM
Yes something happened. I would call that something aiki. Realizing that there is a connection is the first part (kokyu, then musubi) the next part was the awase, and after the blend he demonstrated zanshin. The whole interaction was Aiki, he used his understanding or the attackers intention (via their connectio) to make Aiki (energy fitting together).
Since the internal strength and aiki you keep describing can be found on a high school wrestling mat or in a TKD school at the mall...what does that say about internal strength and aiki and the generations of people who were so awed by it they made it legendary?
Were they so stunningly incompetent that a high school wrestler's skills would dazzle them?

I'd only state and agree with Greg, and Chris that what you are describing as Internal strength and aiki is typical wrestling strategy (here-done well). If this were all that the mythic Internal Strength and "aiki" was...no one would have crossed the street to learn something they could have picked up in any hundred other arts.

I've seen similar things like this in the Chinese arts with westerners now "re-defining" what internal power is in order to reduce it .....to something they can then say they know and can do.
I find all of it rather odd since the people doing this can't do anything unusual and feel like any other average Joe in the martial art world.
At the end of the day it is rather telling.
1. The people who have taken over-all the arts- are nothing compared to the greats.
2. Yet they stand there (feeling like any average Joe) telling the world they understand what the greats were doing.
3. If someone understands these deep principles-shouldn't they feel different then your average wrestler? Shouldn't they ...at the very least....feel unusual?
4. If they don't-what does that say?

Fighting skill versus understanding of deeper aspects
Today we have the same issues as ages past. If you can fight well...for many observers ..that is it. THAT is the vetting process. I disagree. I think being able to fight well is that and that only. It doesn't mean anyone from Joe Frazier to Royce Gracie understood what aiki is. We can go from gang bangers to bikers to wrestlers to Spec Op professionals; none of their abilities has any bearing on their understanding higher level skills in the martial arts.

Internal strength and aiki are a stand alone skill set that happens to work very....very well in fighting. But IS and fighting are different skill sets. and IS alone is obvious and can be felt on the spot.
As one very powerful Master class teacher of IS (who taught in Japan as well) once said.
What is all this talk about aiki?
Where is Yin
Where is Yang
Where then is Ai...ki?
You cannot pretend Dantian
You will be found out.

FWIW, he...felt...very unusual and his body proved what his mouth was talking about. That should be a challenge and a standard for us all.
Dan

ChrisHein
09-22-2012, 12:24 PM
Dan,
It sounds like a lot of what interests you in "Aiki" is the fact that it's special, unique and different then anything anyone else could do. If you found out that "Aiki" was something very simple, that anyone could do, but few ever realized it, would you be interested in studying it?

As I (and I believe a lot of others) describe "Aiki", you are correct, it is available to everyone. You don't have to join a special club, or know all the right people. People use "Aiki", as I describe it, everyday. When you hear a beautiful song, or see a great friendship, you are seeing examples of "Aiki".

The difficulty in practicing the art of Aikido, the part that is special and unique, is not the "Aiki" itself, it's the ability to use "Aiki" in a crazy situation. An Aikidoka has the ability to find accord with someone who is trying desperately to harm them. The ability to keep yourself under control, and not lash out at an attacker, but instead find a harmonious interaction. A way to make your "Ki" and theirs fit together.

I don't believe there is anything exclusive about Aiki. I believe it is available to the whole world, anytime one is ready to accept it. I do however believe accepting it is very difficult. I have spent a large part of my life trying to understand this very simple thing, Aiki.

DH
09-22-2012, 02:06 PM
Dan,
It sounds like a lot of what interests you in "Aiki" is the fact that it's special, unique and different then anything anyone else could do. If you found out that "Aiki" was something very simple, that anyone could do, but few ever realized it, would you be interested in studying it?
No. I am not interested in IS and Aiki because others can't do it.
a) others can do it
b) that isn't a motivator for me.

What interests me in IS and Aiki:
1. Is that it is powerful, soft, and controlling.
2. Is that it works very well in combatives
3. Is that it is mentally and physically challenging
4. Is that as I am aging I am actually better than I was when I was younger
5. That it is devastatingly effective to an opponent-yet very good for my health/body
6. That it relieves stress
7. That it has a long proven history
8. You can train the primary tenants of it..... solo.
9. Last -and to answer your point-
Another benefit (not the motivator) is that few know it and can use it well. However, this is not a reason for me to be interested in something. Now, were more and more people to know it and be able to use it?
Then it would not just interest me-it would be a requirement to be capable in budo. And I think that is where we are heading.

As I (and I believe a lot of others) describe "Aiki",.... it is available to everyone.
I understand that VERY well Chris.
But...it isn't aiki or IS as mentioned (but not displayed) in the OP video.
a) I understand what you are describing,
b) You don't understand what IS and aiki was and is in a classical model.
Hence my comment that aiki as you and others describe it is actually a re-defining of the term. Nothing I have read as source material agrees with your definitions. In fact most speak outright against it.

Ueshiba was clear in describing his models.
1. When asked to define it; he drew a circle and described it as opposing powers (in you).
2. When asked, he said the mysteries of aiki are revealed in dual opposing spirals (in you)
3. When asked he said it was in Heaven/earth/man which released the mountain echo (in you).
4. When asked he said no one is following him because they do not understand yin and yang...(refer back to #1 and #2 #3)
Everything you think IS and aiki is... comes after. And it has nothing to do with two peoples movements "blending" like you think it does. Ueshiba was clear that his models resulted in him EXERTING HIS WILL.

Everything I just laid out isn't even Ueshiba's alone. He was quoting work that created other budo giants through the ages in different cultures....through same model. Hence..they "got it" too.

I have spent a large part of my life trying to understand this very simple thing, Aiki.
Me too. So have hundreds of other teachers I have met. I'd say understanding the above quotes is a good beginning. I know many Shihan and other teachers who trained (some up to 40 years) who said "Time to start over!"
And they were VERY happy to do so.
I understand that there is a huge movement that does not follow Ueshiba and doesn't care. I understand that there are those who want to follow Ueshiba's model but don't know how. I also think there are those who are starting to get what he was really talking about and they are chasing the old man again!!!
Dan

ChrisHein
09-22-2012, 07:29 PM
When I said, "I have spent a large part of my life trying to understand this very simple thing, Aiki". I didn't mean it as a badge. It's just that you often make the comment to the effect of, if it was so simple why would anyone study it. I do; I study this very simple thing. I believe it is very simple, yet amazingly difficult.

The idea of being able to find accord in the midst of conflict- it's very impressive to me. Something that I think is worth devoting a life time too. That is what I call Aiki, simple, but not easy.

stan baker
09-22-2012, 07:45 PM
Hi Chris
Aiki is not simple
There are many pieces of the puzzle
some you are not even aware of what is simple
about that.

Tengu859
09-22-2012, 09:23 PM
Maybe what is being defined as aiki by Chris is the postwar/modern definition of aiki...I could see Ueshiba now..."That's not AIKIDO...!!!"...and then storm out of the dojo. Thank K Ueshiba/Tohei for that(thanks Stan great article). I think that this is where the IS/Aiki debate starts...
As far as sumo goes...would have been nice to see Sokaku Takeda playing sumo after training with a smile on his toothless face!!! Maybe then we might have caught a glimpse at aiki at work...!!!
Thanks :0) ,
ChrisW

DH
09-23-2012, 06:05 AM
I didn't mean it as a badge. It's just that you often make the comment to the effect of, if it was so simple why would anyone study it.
Hi Chris
That's not my point. I didn't say "If it was so simple why would anyone study it?"
I said "If that was all it was-why would seasoned martial artists (and in a certain era; warriors) be impressed by it?"

The idea of being able to find accord in the midst of conflict- it's very impressive to me. That is what I call Aiki, simple, but not easy.
Finding accord in the midst of conflict can be arrived at in two dramatically different ways; one is aiki, the other is external blending movement that anyone off the street can do. Whether simple -or more refined- it's certainly not something I would devote a lifetime too. On the other hand what aiki was and is in a classical sense is uniting and manipulating opposing forces in you-which then cancels out forces applied to you. This was what Ueshiba meant by being able to impose his will on others. The superior artist controls the forces of the person trying to do something. Cooperation need not apply! This was and is a far more effective and powerful and deep study, that captured the minds of warriors for generations.
As far as complex and difficult and impressive compared to normal movement? It is off the charts. ;)
Dan

ChrisHein
09-23-2012, 01:03 PM
The allusion you are making here:

that anyone off the street can do.
Is saying that what I would call Aiki, is something trite, and unworthy of study.

Everyday I see most people (myself included) over react to situations that they see as challenging. When something "bad" is going to happen to us, most forget about the now, forget about the situation that is happening and fret about how bad it's going to be, or how little they prepared. Most of us forget about the relationship we have with our situation, and fall victim to the situation. Some of us fall victim by falling apart, some of us fall victim by lashing out inappropriately at the situation, but often we fall victim.

When was the last time you acted inappropriately towards someone you cared about, because you were not clear headed in a tense situation; yelling at your wife or kids? What I'm speaking about here is only Kokyu and Musubi, not even a full Aiki interaction (as I describe it). Yet, if you could simply do this small part of Aiki, your life, far beyond the ability to physically defend yourself, would be greatly improved.

You like to talk about how Aiki as I have described it, is simply external. Far from it friend, Aiki starts with your core being, in your spirit. Without internal ability you could never have what I call Aiki. Aiki has four steps, Kokyu, Musubi, Awase, Zanshin. You like to focus only on the physical Awase, and speak of how children, grannies and anyone off the street can do that. In a very basic sense you are right, all of those people can "move". It's moving appropriately that is difficult. It's moving in an Aiki way that is difficult. Aiki is not just physical, Aiki can be used in everything we do, conversation, work place interactions, music, art, life!

For me, Ueshiba brought a way for human kind to interact on deeper level. Not simply a means of being more powerful. While working Aiki in a martial format has great benefits, Aiki as a whole goes far beyond any physical feat. I learn and perfect my Aiki in the Dojo, doing hard physical activity, but I practice Aiki out in the world, with everyone I meet, every life I touch.

I do not think of what I call Aiki as trite.

DH
09-23-2012, 01:34 PM
The allusion you are making here:

Is saying that what I would call Aiki, is something trite, and unworthy of study.

Everyday I see most people (myself included) over react to situations that they see as challenging. When something "bad" is going to happen to us, most forget about the now, forget about the situation that is happening and fret about how bad it's going to be, or how little they prepared. Most of us forget about the relationship we have with our situation, and fall victim to the situation. Some of us fall victim by falling apart, some of us fall victim by lashing out inappropriately at the situation, but often we fall victim.

When was the last time you acted inappropriately towards someone you cared about, because you were not clear headed in a tense situation; yelling at your wife or kids? What I'm speaking about here is only Kokyu and Musubi, not even a full Aiki interaction (as I describe it). Yet, if you could simply do this small part of Aiki, your life, far beyond the ability to physically defend yourself, would be greatly improved.

You like to talk about how Aiki as I have described it, is simply external. Far from it friend, Aiki starts with your core being, in your spirit. Without internal ability you could never have what I call Aiki. Aiki has four steps, Kokyu, Musubi, Awase, Zanshin. You like to focus only on the physical Awase, and speak of how children, grannies and anyone off the street can do that. In a very basic sense you are right, all of those people can "move". It's moving appropriately that is difficult. It's moving in an Aiki way that is difficult. Aiki is not just physical, Aiki can be used in everything we do, conversation, work place interactions, music, art, life!

For me, Ueshiba brought a way for human kind to interact on deeper level. Not simply a means of being more powerful. While working Aiki in a martial format has great benefits, Aiki as a whole goes far beyond any physical feat. I learn and perfect my Aiki in the Dojo, doing hard physical activity, but I practice Aiki out in the world, with everyone I meet, every life I touch.

I do not think of what I call Aiki as trite.
Working so I don't have time for a full reply. I get what you are saying Chris. I agree with it all-except at calling that ...aiki.
And.....if you notice you keep putting words in my mouth. I am not saying that what you are describing is trite. It just isn't the high level deep stuff that captured the attention of so many generations.

Moving in an "Aiki way" as you mention begins with no movement at all. In fact it is the hardest part. Next is moving solo...still very difficult. The last is connecting to someone. By then it should be almost automatic. Oddly enough most of the greats were all known for following that model.

I already spelled out what Ueshiba said. It ties in with what ICMA have to say as well. And it isn't what YOU are calling aiki. Whether it is one, or two million; it doesn't change a teaching that was known and taught looong before we showed up. All of this is just redefining of something most people simply do not understand how to do or how it functions. Hence the reason so many fail against it. Something which is almost an exact quote of Ueshiba as well. They fail, because they do not understand Yin and Yang. And like much of everything else he wrote...here we see a modern ICMA masterclass fellow (LCD) go to Japan and tune everyone he touched and what did he say?
Well he...all but quotes Ueshiba
"What is this ai-ki? Where is yin? Where is yang? How then can there be aiki-ki?
The more things are looked at, the more consistent they are becoming. No one is going to arrive at Ueshiba's model or the basic teachings that have spanned Asia and created a stream of greats....from doing kata and trying to match movement or get out of the way.
So...all cool. I like your train of thought. I like your examples. and I agree. It just isn't internal power and it isn't aiki.
Dan

ChrisHein
09-23-2012, 01:45 PM
We disagree.

DH
09-23-2012, 01:51 PM
I know. But it was a discussion of the disagreement. :)
Dan

gregstec
09-24-2012, 08:28 AM
Well, I don't think the term Aiki is trademarked anywhere, so I guess anyone can slap it on as a label to describe whatever they want. So to differentiate between the various uses of the term, I think we need to add clarification to the term - such as something like the internal Aiki of Ueshiba M and Takeda, or the external Aiki of Ueshiba K and the rest of the Aikikai. Once the differences are understood and agreed upon as differences, then folks can go check it all out and decide for themselves which path of Aiki they wish to follow. But without an objective understanding and hands on experience with both, no one should be making statements that one way is or is not the true Aiki. Dan, Chris, and I have obvious experience (at various levels, of course) with both and have chosen the internal way of Takeda's and Ueshiba M, Aiki.

As they say, YMMV :)

Greg

ChrisHein
09-24-2012, 12:10 PM
Not that this is the thread for this, but.
The problem about saying "of Ueshiba M" and "of Ueshiba K" is the fact that Ueshiba K was trying to do is fathers Aiki. Also, Ueshiba K probably knew his father better then any of us. To say that you know better what someone was describing then their own son did is pretty presumptuous.

gregstec
09-24-2012, 01:17 PM
Not that this is the thread for this, but.
The problem about saying "of Ueshiba M" and "of Ueshiba K" is the fact that Ueshiba K was trying to do is fathers Aiki. Also, Ueshiba K probably knew his father better then any of us. To say that you know better what someone was describing then their own son did is pretty presumptuous.

Oh, I don't know - I think it is a pretty safe assumption to state that the son did not have what the father had; so, there was a difference. There has been a lot of independent corroboration on a lot of the Aiki/IS aspects of Ueshiba M over the last few years here in threads, as well as elsewhere, that seam to support Dan's statements concerning Ueshiba M and aiki as he saw - those that have been following those discussion should be familiar with the various points and there really is no need to go into any detail here.

Greg

ChrisHein
09-24-2012, 01:24 PM
I think it would be much simpler to say "HAiki"- Dan Harden's Aiki, when referencing the "IP IT IS" idea of Aiki. Since Dan is the major promoting factor behind this idea of Aiki.

HAiki clearly shows a difference, and give's credit to it's main promoting force.

Chris Li
09-24-2012, 01:39 PM
I think it would be much simpler to say "HAiki"- Dan Harden's Aiki, when referencing the "IP IT IS" idea of Aiki. Since Dan is the major promoting factor behind this idea of Aiki.

HAiki clearly shows a difference, and give's credit to it's main promoting force.

I think that Dan pretty clearly says that it's not his idea, not his method, not his creation.

I'm sure he'll reply himself, though... :D

Best,

Chris

ChrisHein
09-24-2012, 01:42 PM
But his promotion... I like HAiki.

Chris Li
09-24-2012, 01:46 PM
But his promotion... I like HAiki.

Why don't you just call your Aiki "HAiki" for Hein? :D

Best,

Chris

gregstec
09-24-2012, 01:58 PM
I think that Dan pretty clearly says that it's not his idea, not his method, not his creation.

I'm sure he'll reply himself, though... :D

Best,

Chris

Very true - I think people need to step out more from inside their Aikido box and look at some of the other sources of IP/IS from India and China and then they just might see that a lot of what Ueshiba called aiki is all right there.

Greg

graham christian
09-24-2012, 02:14 PM
Except that what he called Aiki was different to such. Just as what he called budo.

Peace.G.

MM
09-24-2012, 02:26 PM
But his promotion... I like HAiki.

Hi Chris,

That isn't quite correct. The promotion is by me, Chris, Greg, Marc, Bill, etc, etc, etc. Dan talks about what aiki really is, according to Ueshiba and other great martial masters. However, in the aikido world, the promotion is via all of us.

Now, take into account just who these people are who are promoting aiki. Bill Gleason has a world of experience that dwarfs yours and mine. Chris Li has trained with a host of Japanese aikido people, shihan to doshu. Etc, etc, etc. The combined years of experience probably reaches into the thousands from all of us. Singularly, from 10, 20, 30, and 40 years of training experience in aikido. Do you really think we don't "get" Modern Aikido's definition of "aiki"?

You mention Kisshomaru knowing his father better than anyone else, but ... here's the tough part about Kisshomaru and Tokyo hombu. Do you know the differences between what Yamaguchi taught at Tokyo, at his home dojo, *and* at his private dojo? Do you know the differences between what was taught at Tokyo and at Iwama? How about Tokyo and Shingu? Etc. What Shirata taught at Tokyo and what he taught elsewhere? Etc. Why did Tomiki not stay with Tokyo hombu? How about Shioda? Mochizuki? Why Shirata? What all was added at Tokyo hombu that Ueshiba didn't do? Why? What all was tossed out? Why? If you can answer all that, I'll give you that you're right about Kisshomaru knowing his father better than anyone else. If you can't ... perhaps some research is in order?

Mark

ChrisHein
09-24-2012, 02:33 PM
It's really simple. Most of the Aikido world doesn't call Aiki what you guys do. You know that, I know that, we agree on that.

Dan is the guy who's out there promoting this idea, he gave it to the people you are saying are it's promoters, like you Mark. The other people help Dan promote this idea.

It's simpler to call Dan's (and those who support Dan) variation of Aiki something different then what most people in the Aikido world calls Aiki. Because it is different...

I'll be calling what you guys are up to HAiki, and Dan's style HAikido from here on out, either way.

Also this thread drift is so far, I think we need a new thread, if this is going to go on.

HL1978
09-24-2012, 02:55 PM
I'm paraphrasing something Ark said a few years back along with some comments of my own which I think apply.

Budo is like a religion: the practitioner takes some mental construct, a set of principles, and keeps those in mind as an ideal, and then goes through stylized moves that allow him or her to feel as though they are putting those ideals into physical motion and instilling discipline in themselves (budo is intended for social benefit). With that there is some exercise for the body. However, no great development of the body ever happens, nor detailed understanding of it; ergo, the understanding people find from doing budo is really not very deep at all. This is Shin(mind) gi (technique) tai (body) in the order expressed in the phrase.

Someone could take on aikido as a form of gyo, or asthetic exercise, but I haven't seen much explicit instruction of that nature in any dojo I have trained.

On the other hand, studying "aiki" along the lines of bujutsu follows tai(body) gi (technique) shin(mind), exactly the opposite: the practitioner forces his or her body to undergo specific exercises that change the body and give him or her some deep understanding of the body, to great detail. This leads to an understanding of the principles. As that understanding develops, the body can be used to perform so-called techniques (which are not really special movements, but only the body in motion according with the understanding given the practitioner), and finally, when the practitioner is really powerful, he or she may decide to no hurt or harm an opponent and use the training as a kind of ascetic exercise.

Dave de Vos
09-24-2012, 03:39 PM
It's really simple. Most of the Aikido world doesn't call Aiki what you guys do. You know that, I know that, we agree on that.

Dan is the guy who's out there promoting this idea, he gave it to the people you are saying are it's promoters, like you Mark. The other people help Dan promote this idea.

It's simpler to call Dan's (and those who support Dan) variation of Aiki something different then what most people in the Aikido world calls Aiki. Because it is different...

I'll be calling what you guys are up to HAiki, and Dan's style HAikido from here on out, either way.

Also this thread drift is so far, I think we need a new thread, if this is going to go on.

There are others who don't seem to be a student or even a fan of Dan who seem to share this idea, like here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20024.
BTW, a similar exchange of points occured from posts #3 and #5 in that thread.

gregstec
09-24-2012, 06:00 PM
OK, just back from happy hour on the veranda deck of my yacht - let's see we all are at - ah, no change I see. Good link Dave; it brings home my earlier point that this stuff has been discussed Ad infinitum to no logical conclusion and agreement to disagree for some - however, I think there is progress being made for those that are willing to get out and explore the other side. :)

Greg

Tengu859
09-24-2012, 07:15 PM
Hello All,

Here we go around the mullberry bush, the mullberry bush...or shoud I say ring around the rosy, a pocket fill of poseys...!!! I can't get enough of this. At times it's hard to understand!!! Many have said it before(I'm along for the train wreck)!!!

TakeCareEnjoy,

CW

PS TRAINHARDTRAINSMART

Chris Li
09-24-2012, 07:30 PM
It's really simple. Most of the Aikido world doesn't call Aiki what you guys do. You know that, I know that, we agree on that.

The numbers game is tricky, because it keeps on changing.

At one time, most of the Aikido world believed that Morihei Ueshiba created all the techniques himself - until Stan Pranin showed differently.

Japanese Aikido shihan told people straight out that Daito-ryu was a dead art - but now we know that wasn't true.

Maybe we should take a vote.:D

Best,

Chris

Marc Abrams
09-24-2012, 08:37 PM
Maybe it's just me..... I kind of find it ludicrous that we are entertaining people who are trying to define a very hard to define, Japanese term who DO NOT speak Japanese. I do not speak Japanese, nor pretend to have some deep understanding of words and terms that I do not know the history, context, etc. behind the words or terms. I may put forth my limited understanding with the caveat of my lack of understanding of the language and I will then defer to those who are in a better position to understand the words and terms....

Correct me if I am wrong, but Chris Li was NOT a fan of Dan Harden's in the beginning. Chris Li is someone who I think is a professional interpreter. He not only interprets Japanese into English (and the other way around), is an accomplished Aikidoka, and has researched the history and context behind the words and terms that we are attempting to portray that we think that we know. It is my understanding that Chris explored O'Sensei's original writings because he wanted to see if Dan was full of B.S. or not.

We can continue to display our arrogance wrapped in ignorance, or we can step back and acknowledge the limitations of our assumed knowledge and seek out people who may be better informed than us. This discussion has NOTHING to do with Dan Harden. This discussion evolved/devolved into a discussion of what "Aiki" means (one of too many threads). It is beyond absurd that we have people who insist that they know what this term means in absence of a deep understanding of the language and a deep understanding of the history and context of the term.

For my 2 cents, I currently defer to Chris Li, in absence of a more educated opinion.....

Marc Abrams

ps- Great Post Hunter!!!!

Chris Li
09-24-2012, 08:59 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but Chris Li was NOT a fan of Dan Harden's in the beginning.

Dan came onto the old Aikido-L mailing list years (10, 15?) and immediately started causing trouble.

We went back and forth over the years (with some interesting consequences), but always stayed more or less friendly, even though I thought that he was mostly full of it.

Eventually, Dan learned to spell a little better and I started to get some idea what he was talking about after hooking up with some folks who had experience with Sagawa Dojo and the Kodokai in Japan.

A while later I moved back to Hawaii for the second time, and a friend and I ended up getting Dan to come out to Hawaii (didn't take much coaxing).

After screwing the top of my head back on I started looking back more at what Ueshiba wrote - which I had read before, but was much more interesting, and actually understandable, when considered in the correct context.

That's the quick version. :D

Best,

Chris

gregstec
09-24-2012, 10:09 PM
Eventually, Dan learned to spell a little better........

Best,

Chris

not true! he just learned how to use a spell checker :D:D

Greg

HL1978
09-24-2012, 11:13 PM
Hello All,

Here we go around the mullberry bush, the mullberry bush...or shoud I say ring around the rosy, a pocket fill of poseys...!!! I can't get enough of this. At times it's hard to understand!!! Many have said it before(I'm along for the train wreck)!!!

TakeCareEnjoy,

CW

PS TRAINHARDTRAINSMART

I don't think anyone will be convinced through argument alone, as it has gone around and around for years. It is worth saying though, that once you have a little bit of experience with what the IS guys talk about (even if you can't do it yourself), the many rather abstract, flowery and/or esoteric phrases one hears in martial arts suddenly have life breathed into them and may in some ways seem obvious in hindsight.

-------

My previous post was really intended to be in response to post 32's 3rd paragraph. None the less, Ark's comments about shin tai gi and tai gi shin, probably should go off in their own thread, but are pertinent to any sort of spiritual discussion or the more conventional connotations of "aiki" as understood by most martial artists.

thisisnotreal
09-25-2012, 08:33 AM
Concepts that have proven useful in ordering things easily achieve such authority over us that we forget their earthly origins and accept them as unalterable givens.

Gerardo Torres
09-25-2012, 12:12 PM
Most of the Aikido world doesn't call Aiki what you guys do.
The same "Aikido world" whose top teachers said they "did not know what O Sensei was talking about" (and went on to spread his art anyway), cannot do what O Sensei did, and who got told by O Sensei they were not doing his aikido and did not understand core principles like in-yo. Here the status quo doesn't exactly provide a very convincing argument of understanding aiki as the founder did (we keep bowing to a picture of the founder so I assume it is the aiki he did we're interested in, not some number of made-up definitions of aiki).

DH
09-25-2012, 01:01 PM
Hi Chris

Source material
All due respect, this isn't my material-nor my case and I have never said it was. In fact I think the first step in holding people back is to reduce it to individuals. Sadly, it is what the martial arts community has done for generations.

This material has spanned cultures and generations and I believe it is the source material for many individual "epiphanies." We have Chinese, quoting India and Japan quoting the Chinese material; all using the same terminology. We have Ueshiba being asked to explain himself. "Tell us what aiki is" And here we now see him quoting material -ages old.
Ueshiba flatly stating that "Heaven/earth/ man releases the mountain echo." You must stand with six direction awareness before during and after each technique.

Then we have the founder of shinto ryu coming out of esoteric studies at the Katori shrine in 1451 and stating that once he understood heaven/earth/man and six direction theory....his ken was unstoppable!
That is a 500 year span of two great martial artists quoting the same source material-not as strictly concept-but as the same use of terminology as other great budo men in China. Secondly, assigning the concept taught...as martial strength or power.

Questions worth consideration
When I read your argument, Chris for Harden Aiki-being different from the majority of those in aikido- one has to ask oneself:
Shouldn't your argument for two different types of IP or aiki be supported by the founders words...and his abilities-and then displayed in those making such claims?

Shouldn't the majority claiming Ueshiba's aiki- display the attributes of power of the arts founder they claim to understand, and be able to explain what he said? How come they didn't know where his words came from -so they thought it was his individual genius and personal creation?
Shouldn't the majority making the argument that they understand what Ueshiba's aiki is, display unusual power, and not feel like average people? Their claims of understanding a founder who did display unusual power should mean they have unusual power, right?
If they were right...couldn't they just step on a mat and show it around the world-against people who doubted them?

What does it mean when someone shows up pointing to the sources Ueshiba was pointing to, can explain them, do them...and displays unusual power that the arts teachers cannot stop, cannot do and cannot explain?


1. How does that then qualify their opinion on the words and work of the founder________________?

This work, this treasure of the Asian arts was not Ueshiba's in the first place-it was given to him as well. It never was an individual epiphany. THis work has produced budo people with unusual power for eons, and it will continue to do so today if we...like those before us...do the work.
We have a chance to embrace the legacy of the real power in budo with men who are teaching how to do it.

We have to get off of individuals and onto the real knowledge and work. Where do we go?
Here is a telling point:
Every...single...one... of those claiming to understand these things? They should display unusual power...
Maybe that is a good place to begin.
Dan

DH
09-25-2012, 01:30 PM
Dan came onto the old Aikido-L mailing list years (10, 15?) and immediately started causing trouble.
And....many friends.;)

We went back and forth over the years (with some interesting consequences), but always stayed more or less friendly, even though I thought that he was mostly full of it.
I started to get some idea what he was talking about after hooking up with some folks who had experience with Sagawa Dojo and the Kodokai in Japan.
Again pointing to the fact that.... this is NOT my material...or any individuals for that matter.

A while later I moved back to Hawaii for the second time, and a friend and I ended up getting Dan to come out to Hawaii (didn't take much coaxing).
After screwing the top of my head back on.... I started looking back more at what Ueshiba wrote - which I had read before, but was much more interesting, and actually understandable, when considered in the correct context.
Best,

Chris
I think most people didn't get the fact that your drive to re-read Ueshiba came only AFTER your encounter with the realities of this work which you previously wrote off as me being full of it!!
It's certainly been fun seeing you awaken as a new source, ;)
Dan

DH
09-25-2012, 01:35 PM
Back on topic
Unlike the sumo video; here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zZDtCZVURY) is a guy who actually does have IS... unusual power!
If you watch he exhibits little movement to control or make power, and no...no cooperation is needed.
Yes I have felt him.
Dan

graham christian
09-25-2012, 04:32 PM
Nice to see some visual at last. Mmmm. So that's what you call unusual power. Seen much similar.

Taiji, bagua etc. As I thought.

Peace.G.

stan baker
09-25-2012, 07:34 PM
Hi Graham
It might look the same but it is not
you need to experience this level sometmes
more then once to understand.

stan

ChrisHein
09-26-2012, 12:15 AM
Back on topic
Unlike the sumo video; here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zZDtCZVURY) is a guy who actually does have IS... unusual power!
If you watch he exhibits little movement to control or make power, and no...no cooperation is needed.
Yes I have felt him.
Dan

I have seen what is done in this video many times. I have studied internal Chinese Martial arts. I can do the things shown in this video. I'll make a video of me showing these things. I'll show up in person at one of your seminars in California and demonstrate this for you if you'd like.

This type of thing is very common in Chinese internal, any good teacher will show you these things. While it can be impressive it's not what I believe Ueshiba was going for. I don't think what I see in this video will bring the world together. It does not speak "Aikido is the principle of unifying heaven, earth and humankind." or "Aikido is the way of supreme, unbounded, perfect, and inexhaustible love that binds and sustains the universe." These too are the words of the founder. As I describe Aiki, these words fit perfectly, I don't see how they apply to what I'm seeing in that video.

Tengu859
09-26-2012, 12:54 AM
I have seen what is done in this video many times. I have studied internal Chinese Martial arts. I can do the things shown in this video. I'll make a video of me showing these things. I'll show up in person at one of your seminars in California and demonstrate this for you if you'd like.

This type of thing is very common in Chinese internal, any good teacher will show you these things. While it can be impressive it's not what I believe Ueshiba was going for. I don't think what I see in this video will bring the world together. It does not speak "Aikido is the principle of unifying heaven, earth and humankind." or "Aikido is the way of supreme, unbounded, perfect, and inexhaustible love that binds and sustains the universe." These too are the words of the founder. As I describe Aiki, these words fit perfectly, I don't see how they apply to what I'm seeing in that video.

Chris,

Yes, yes, yes!!! There is still hope for the MA's. I applaud the fact that you are willing to go and demonstrate what you mean. I respect that. That's more than others are willing to do... You have just inspired me to get off my butt(and Internet)and train. Yes, yes, yes!!! :0)

All the Best,
ChrisW

Chris Knight
09-26-2012, 03:51 AM
I have seen what is done in this video many times. I have studied internal Chinese Martial arts. I can do the things shown in this video. I'll make a video of me showing these things. I'll show up in person at one of your seminars in California and demonstrate this for you if you'd like.

funny, i was reading a post from "2007" last night on www.shengwu.com?, in which you said you'd meet up with him when he came to the area then
cant wait to hear about it

MM
09-26-2012, 08:42 AM
It's really simple. Most of the Aikido world doesn't call Aiki what you guys do. You know that, I know that, we agree on that.

Dan is the guy who's out there promoting this idea, he gave it to the people you are saying are it's promoters, like you Mark. The other people help Dan promote this idea.


Chris,

That might apply if all of the people involved had no common sense, low IQs, and couldn't tell their rear from a hole in the ground. :) However, if anyone takes a look at the people involved, anyone would find that this is most definitely not the case. In fact, it's just the opposite. The people involved are very intelligent and very experienced in the martial arts world. Just look up Bill Gleason's training history. To say that these people are only there to promote Dan is to, pretty much, tell them all that they don't have the intelligence to think on their own. It is a very safe bet that most of the people who went to train with any of the IP exponents, did so to discount what was being said. Some to test. So, how about we drop this "promoter" idea, this "salesman" thing, this "individual" thing and start focusing on aiki.

(Just as an aside about the individual, promoter, thing being wrong ... This isn't about a singular person. There were three people out and about at one time. There was one more who wasn't as well known. There was one who became more popular after the Aiki Expos. There was one who was relatively unknown until a few years ago. There were two who were known but had trouble explaining. Etc, etc, etc.)


It's simpler to call Dan's (and those who support Dan) variation of Aiki something different then what most people in the Aikido world calls Aiki. Because it is different...


It is different than Modern Aikido, yes. It is Ueshiba's aiki. It is what made Ueshiba martially famous. It is what is missing in most Modern Aikido.

Now, for everyone ... don't take that to mean that Modern Aikido's vision of "aiki" is worthless. I know quite a few people who have become better people from it. In reality, Kisshomaru did a grand thing when he took his father's singular spiritual ideology and transformed it into something the world could share. That, IMO, was something Kisshomaru did which surpassed his father. Personally, I think his father approved of what he had done in this area. What Kisshomaru did has changed many people's lives for the better. I think most Modern Aikido dojos should also have a picture of Kisshomaru on the shomen. I'm sure he had tough decisions to make regarding Tokyo hombu because there were other major changes made, as well. Ueshiba's aiki was removed, which has contributed to the downgrade of aikido being martially outstanding as all the aikido greats had proven.

Budd
09-26-2012, 09:08 AM
I think people are getting hung up on the sumo video as if someone's saying that's an excellent use of internal strength. I don't know anyone that's saying that - but I will say it's interesting, beyond bracing how the smaller sumo dude is able to get heavy and change weight without a lot of movement (though not unusual in grapplers of a high level, either, master class bjj guys on the ground can feel like there's nothing there, or like they are as immovable as a mountain -- there's also some clips of a more recent judo guy showing the same kinds of things from judo grips).

Obviously LCD is showing a much higher level of skill (against a much less resisting opponent, I might add - which only is to say there's a difference in how these things look against progressive levels of resistance, sparring, fighting, etc. for example, look at Chen Bing's demo, still demo, against the muscley grappler in Florida). If I had to break it down in more detail, I'd say the sumo guy has a leg up on the guys he's working against in that he's better able to manipulate the solidity of ground, weight of gravity aspects (beyond just having good structure) that are really entry level things to IS.

LCD is obviously a different animal, he's demonstrating much more sophisticated management of ground/gravity, plus better whole body connection and the ability to issue power through that connected body as driven by the middle (and some other things as well).

I find it a bit annoying how ready everyone is to go to one extreme of "Yeah, I fully understand that, we do that, too" or to the other end of "Yeah, I totally get it and that is nothing at all like what I'm doing". I think we'd be better serviced if there was a bit more education and consensus around what some of the entry-points are into the spectrum of Internal Strength skills are and how different levels of conditioning, skill and sophistication play into training, demonstrations, competitions and combat -- without the conversation denigrating quickly into "I know more because I'm in the club" or "I know more IS because I can beat you up" or "My teacher said" or .... <insert trite-ism here>.

/OffSoapbox

For the record, Dan, you already know I agree with you that this stuff is different.

Chris, I think people have been telling you to for years to go feel somebody that is acknowledged as having some skill. So, yeah, I encourage you again to go do so.

stan baker
09-26-2012, 10:14 AM
I have seen what is done in this video many times. I have studied internal Chinese Martial arts. I can do the things shown in this video. I'll make a video of me showing these things. I'll show up in person at one of your seminars in California and demonstrate this for you if you'd like.

This type of thing is very common in Chinese internal, any good teacher will show you these things. While it can be impressive it's not what I believe Ueshiba was going for. I don't think what I see in this video will bring the world together. It does not speak "Aikido is the principle of unifying heaven, earth and humankind." or "Aikido is the way of supreme, unbounded, perfect, and inexhaustible love that binds and sustains the universe." These too are the words of the founder. As I describe Aiki, these words fit perfectly, I don't see how they apply to what I'm seeing in that video.

Hi Chris
Like I Said to Graham looks the same but
You have not felt anybody
on his level.

C. David Henderson
09-26-2012, 11:35 AM
I have a few questions I'd like to put out there, and I'm sincerely interested in hearing anyone's answers as the questions arise whenever this discussion about "what is aiki" comes around.

Here is my premise: One of the things about O Sensei that his students seemed to find remarkable was his ability to "disappear" from where they thought he was and "reappear" suddenly, often right beside them, as when surrounded by a group of armed or unarmed attackers.

1. Are these accounts creditable? They seem to me to be, as reflected in films I've seen.

2. Is it appropriate to consider this an aspect of "aiki" in your view?

A. If not, is it fair to talk about it as a "higher level" skill at least as he manifested it?
And
B. If the answer to that second question is "yes," then how did he train it and why did he seem to regard it as a significant element of his budo?

3. Is this kind of ability connected, in your view, to internal training -- that is, is this something that internal training either helps to impart or otherwise enhances?

Disclaimer: I'm quite interested in the whole IP/IS paradigm, although I'm still working at what has been referred to as "baseline skills." I'm not trying to score points or get into a debate with people who are more skilled or knowledgeable. Still, I keep wondering whether this aspect of training explains everything that I, with my limited experience, find remarkable about Ueshiba's budo.

DH
09-26-2012, 12:03 PM
I have seen what is done in this video many times. I have studied internal Chinese Martial arts. I can do the things shown in this video. I'll make a video of me showing these things. I'll show up in person at one of your seminars in California and demonstrate this for you if you'd like.
GT
This type of thing is very common in Chinese internal, any good teacher will show you these things. While it can be impressive it's not what I believe Ueshiba was going for. I don't think what I see in this video will bring the world together. It does not speak "Aikido is the principle of unifying heaven, earth and humankind." or "Aikido is the way of supreme, unbounded, perfect, and inexhaustible love that binds and sustains the universe." These too are the words of the founder. As I describe Aiki, these words fit perfectly, I don't see how they apply to what I'm seeing in that video.
I am unaware of you learning IS in your studies of ICMA. I don't want to get into teachers and what they can and cannot do.
What is your exposure to several other CHINESE ICMA Master class teachers....not related to your teacher?
Lets just say that some teachers...Master level teachers from China... bounced themselves off of me when trying the things in the video I posted. Now...since that happened in public in an open room at his own seminar-and this after separating me from his lineage holding student...telling him that "I was too much for him"... How then do we think that any of this Master Class Chinese teacher's own students...ended up with IS? How would that happen?

Martial arts are filled with many excellent technicians who would not know internal power if it fell on them. THAT....is why I test for IS outside of waza or fighting ability. For example- Jujutsu both traditional and modern has some excellent players; There are some MA experts out teaching internal power, who really have no business doing so. They are very, very good at what they do and that is enough to vet them for anything they wish to market themselves as to almost everyone who has no real exposure to what IS really is.
Budd was spot on with talking about good grapplers doing some things close to internal movement. And high level jujutsu -including really good Greco Roman and BJJ can be very ghosty and fluid. For most Ma'ers when they meet and feel these guys and if they watch them win a fight...it vets...all of their rhetoric about anything they want to say.

And yet....
I continue to meet men who spent 8-15 years in China training under Masters-who are good jujutsu guys...and they have no IS.
I continue to meet men who spent 5-35 years in Japan-who are good jujutsu and weapons guys with no IS.
How do I know? Outside of their waza, they have no unusual power of any kind. They feel like any other Tom, Dick, or Harry.
Same with the Sumo video in the OP. There are "tells" that show he is not connected fully. The same can be said for Menkyo' in JMA and SHihan in various arts.
I have gotten into trouble for pointing it out, only to find out upon feel that I was spot on, or when others felt them after feeling people who really were connected THEY reported that our analysis was true.

Personally, I think everyone would have to go feel a series of ICMA master class teachers who are known to have IS before they should seriously consider that they know what it even feels like, much less do.
That leaves me with the fact that you continue to bring up your mimicing or copying what you see on film and thinking you are duplicating it. We have seen it before. LCD is not Doing "a thing" it is a quality of movement. and if you had it? You would be famous. It really that simple. It is inescapable and obvious. anyone who touched you would want to be a student as you would feel different.
I think for most people that is one area in discussing IS like this on these threads. There is no escape from one obvious fact.
If everyone has IS and it is the aiki you describe...why do they feel normal and can be tossed around?
How then do you explain those who feel different and cannot be tossed around?
Usually it is explained through their ability with "Waza."
Yet all of the famous guys who were unusual said it had nothing to do with waza
When someone tells me they can do these things I simply ask
Why are you not famous?

I agree on Ueshiba's comments. However, his body displayed a power that impressed people. All of the interviews and stories we fawn over....over and over again, talk of men NOT being impressed by his waza...but of touching and feeling his body movement.
Again...and to repeat, just as I said "I test bodies and not letting someone hide behind jujutsu"....the Majority of the interviews we see focus on people commenting on Ueshiba's "unusual power" His internal strength...not his jujutsu.
Didn't he say...Aiki had nothing to do with waza.
Didn't he quote Chinese IP methods?

Dan

DH
09-26-2012, 12:22 PM
EDIT:
Just to note, I am only addressing this idea that all movement and all arts contain IS when do not. Not that they have to either. They are fine on their own with no requirement to have IS at all....except when people say they do and they provably do not!
Everyone should care about honest evaluation of something we invest so much time in.
Dan

ChrisHein
09-26-2012, 12:49 PM
Dan, I would love to come to your next California seminar and "feel". Could I come?

DH
09-26-2012, 02:50 PM
Hi Chris
Meeting me is not the point.
I....am not any of my points.
With your history here and on Shen Wu, I would rather you went to see Sam Chin or Ark or some of the ICMA who are vetted as having power. The work is the point, not any individual.
BTW, I really appreciated the friendly exchange.
Dan

David Orange
09-26-2012, 02:52 PM
Moving in an "Aiki way" as you mention begins with no movement at all. In fact it is the hardest part. Next is moving solo...still very difficult. The last is connecting to someone. By then it should be almost automatic. Oddly enough most of the greats were all known for following that model.

Right. I've been trying to phrase that. And you can also see that the big teachers explain the same idea in the opposite directions: as you get better, the big movements become smaller and smaller until you're almost not moving. It's not an equivalent statement, though. Instead of approaching the infinitely small through large outer direction and movement, it has to be better to begin with inner direction and no outward movement.

A big shift began for me when I studied Feldenkrais and he (his Method and writings) directed my attention toward smaller and smaller movements until I noticed a place between thought and movement where everything begins.

You have to find that first in yourself before you can start to apply it to others and you have to learn to keep it all inside rather than sending out toward, if not to someone else.

So it has to begin at non-moving internal work.

So then the specifics of the non-moving internal work...

What are they and what are the effects?

They are the six-directional tuning of the nervous system.

The effect is to make the practitioner very hard to move, very hard to prevent from moving, very difficult to let go of, once grabbed.

With these skills, the outer forms of aikido can be employed easily, though this stage should really be takemusu aiki, from which techniques are generated spontaneously according to the situation.

It's in the body of the practitioner--not in the forms.

Thanks for the help.

David

David Orange
09-26-2012, 03:08 PM
not true! he just learned how to use a spell checker :D:D

Greg

No easy feat, even on aikiweb. Every time I type aiki, it gets turned into wiki!

Before correcting the spell-checker:

Every time I type wiki, it gets turned into wiki!

ChrisHein
09-26-2012, 05:01 PM
Hi Chris
Meeting me is not the point.
I....am not any of my points.
With your history here and on Shen Wu, I would rather you went to see Sam Chin or Ark or some of the ICMA who are vetted as having power. The work is the point, not any individual.
BTW, I really appreciated the friendly exchange.
Dan

You've got to look at this from my perspective. I am pretty sure that I know what you're talking about. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. If what you are describing is on the video you posted I would describe that as chinese internal. I'm sure that Ueshiba was interested in and trained in this type of movement (this is one of the reasons I trained in it). But I believe it is only a part of what he was doing. He was also interested in training in koryu weapons and jujutsu. He was also interested in spiritual study/action. All of these things made up his art, Aikido. I don't believe he was only talking about the IP aspects of his training when he spoke of Aikido-or Aiki for that matter..

I understand that your main interest is internal, but that's not the whole of Aikido. My offer to peacefully meet with you next time you're in California still stands. Barring you meeting with me I'd rather not hear any more about my lack of understanding of IP. As you yourself often say, you don't know until you've felt them.

Chris Li
09-26-2012, 05:15 PM
You've got to look at this from my perspective. I am pretty sure that I know what you're talking about. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. If what you are describing is on the video you posted I would describe that as chinese internal. I'm sure that Ueshiba was interested in and trained in this type of movement (this is one of the reasons I trained in it). But I believe it is only a part of what he was doing. He was also interested in training in koryu weapons and jujutsu. He was also interested in spiritual study/action. All of these things made up his art, Aikido. I don't believe he was only talking about the IP aspects of his training when he spoke of Aikido-or Aiki for that matter..

I understand that your main interest is internal, but that's not the whole of Aikido. My offer to peacefully meet with you next time you're in California still stands. Barring you meeting with me I'd rather not hear any more about my lack of understanding of IP. As you yourself often say, you don't know until you've felt them.

This comes around every once in a while, but Dan has never, to my knowledge, said anything about IP being limited to the technical, or that there was no crossover into the spiritual side. In fact, if you speak to him personally you may find that it is exactly the opposite.

I would say that the challenge is really to get to the universe without floating off into outer space - the technical method provides the base and the engine for the spiritual side, and without it mostly what you have is a figment of your imagination. Ueshiba actually talks about this in places in Take Musu Aiki.

Hiroshi Tada mentions this too, at various places in the translated interview that I've been putting up.

Here, for example (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-09-09/aikido-shihan-hiroshi-tada-the-budo-body-part-5):

However, this is not something that can just be known vaguely, you must also be fully conversant with the concrete training methods relating to this method of thinking about the mind, the body, and technique.

And here, as well (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-09-16/aikido-shihan-hiroshi-tada-the-budo-body-part-6):

What cannot be understood concretely, through a concrete method, cannot be trained.

There were a couple of other places as well, if you read the whole series.

Best,

Chris

ChrisHein
09-26-2012, 05:35 PM
Chris, while I respect your efforts, one can read things in many ways. When I read your translations they speak to what I'm talking about as well.

Both of the quotes you just used seem to me to prove my point as well.

Chris Li
09-26-2012, 05:40 PM
Chris, while I respect your efforts, one can read things in many ways. When I read your translations they speak to what I'm talking about as well.

Both of the quotes you just used seem to me to prove my point as well.

I'm getting confused - what do you think Tada is saying?

Anyway, Dan has never, to my knowledge said that there is no crossover, or that it is unimportant.

Best,

Chris

ChrisHein
09-26-2012, 06:03 PM
However, this is not something that can just be known vaguely, you must also be fully conversant with the concrete training methods relating to this method of thinking about the mind, the body, and technique.

What is he describing? Imagine it's what you guys call Aiki. Imagine it's what I call Aiki. Imagine he's describing NASCAR driving.

He could be talking about anything that involves mind body and technique. I don't think he's talking about NASCAR, but depending on who's reading it- that little clip you put up- it could be anything.

"What cannot be understood concretely, through a concrete method, cannot be trained."

Also sounds like good advice. But what's he talking about, maybe learning fly fishing, or Japanese carpentry. I'm not trying to be a smart alec, but really, out of context, you can read anything anyway.

I know you are a scholar, and I believe you can add much to this debate, but you have to understand the limitations of what written word is. Even if we all spoke the same language, things can be read many different ways. People miss understand me all the time, and we speak the same language, live in the same country, at the same time, are of the same culture, and they know me on a personal level. Language is so complex, it's never black and white.

Chris Li
09-26-2012, 06:53 PM
What is he describing? Imagine it's what you guys call Aiki. Imagine it's what I call Aiki. Imagine he's describing NASCAR driving.

He could be talking about anything that involves mind body and technique. I don't think he's talking about NASCAR, but depending on who's reading it- that little clip you put up- it could be anything.

Also sounds like good advice. But what's he talking about, maybe learning fly fishing, or Japanese carpentry. I'm not trying to be a smart alec, but really, out of context, you can read anything anyway.

I know you are a scholar, and I believe you can add much to this debate, but you have to understand the limitations of what written word is. Even if we all spoke the same language, things can be read many different ways. People miss understand me all the time, and we speak the same language, live in the same country, at the same time, are of the same culture, and they know me on a personal level. Language is so complex, it's never black and white.

Of course, you can read the context, which is provided - I was just pointing out what I was talking about.

In any case, I think that you're missing my point. My point was that Tada is pointing out the necessity of progressing through a concrete, clearly defined method.

That doesn't mean that Tada is limiting what he's doing purely to the technical side.

Dan, IMO, is doing something quite similar, stressing the need for a concrete method. That doesn't mean that he's saying there's no crossover to the spiritual side or that he thinks that is unimportant.

But without the base there's nothing to build on.

Best,

Chris

graham christian
09-26-2012, 07:30 PM
Hi Graham
It might look the same but it is not
you need to experience this level sometmes
more then once to understand.

stan

Hi Stan. It was an example given and in principle it is similar. I understand what it is not and therefor no need to feel it. However, many do need to as you say if that is their want so no argument there. Enjoy.

Peace.G.

graham christian
09-26-2012, 08:00 PM
I have a few questions I'd like to put out there, and I'm sincerely interested in hearing anyone's answers as the questions arise whenever this discussion about "what is aiki" comes around.

Here is my premise: One of the things about O Sensei that his students seemed to find remarkable was his ability to "disappear" from where they thought he was and "reappear" suddenly, often right beside them, as when surrounded by a group of armed or unarmed attackers.

1. Are these accounts creditable? They seem to me to be, as reflected in films I've seen.

2. Is it appropriate to consider this an aspect of "aiki" in your view?

A. If not, is it fair to talk about it as a "higher level" skill at least as he manifested it?
And
B. If the answer to that second question is "yes," then how did he train it and why did he seem to regard it as a significant element of his budo?

3. Is this kind of ability connected, in your view, to internal training -- that is, is this something that internal training either helps to impart or otherwise enhances?

Disclaimer: I'm quite interested in the whole IP/IS paradigm, although I'm still working at what has been referred to as "baseline skills." I'm not trying to score points or get into a debate with people who are more skilled or knowledgeable. Still, I keep wondering whether this aspect of training explains everything that I, with my limited experience, find remarkable about Ueshiba's budo.

Yes those accounts are quite credible as far as I am concerned.

Yes it is an aspect of aikido.

He trained with the spiritual elements and applied them in action to do so. He had it as significant because it demonstrated many things and statements he made on the subject of his Aikido. ie: "When a person attacks they have already lost, when another attacks I am already standing behind them, the spirit of loving protection, they come I meet, I turn, they follow........etc.etc.etc.

In my view internal gives a totally different thing. It will lead to 'ip' or 'is' but is not Aikido as he described and did.

For some it may 'open the door' but personally I feel it only leads in the wrong direction.

Such is my view, sincerely. Small steps long journey.

Peace.G.

DH
09-26-2012, 08:10 PM
You've got to look at this from my perspective. I am pretty sure that I know what you're talking about. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. If what you are describing is on the video you posted I would describe that as chinese internal. I'm sure that Ueshiba was interested in and trained in this type of movement (this is one of the reasons I trained in it). But I believe it is only a part of what he was doing. He was also interested in training in koryu weapons and jujutsu. He was also interested in spiritual study/action. All of these things made up his art, Aikido. I don't believe he was only talking about the IP aspects of his training when he spoke of Aikido-or Aiki for that matter..

I understand that your main interest is internal, but that's not the whole of Aikido. My offer to peacefully meet with you next time you're in California still stands. Barring you meeting with me I'd rather not hear any more about my lack of understanding of IP. As you yourself often say, you don't know until you've felt them.
I have looked at it from your perspective, Chris. For decades.
Your responses to Chris and me and others over the years don't really discuss internal strength, they discuss external principles. Which is why the OP vid was discussed soley as external principles. It's all anyone really knows and can discuss... and then it was "stamped" as IS.
You keep bringing up...you... in the conversations and saying you get it and can do it. So...I, like everyone else...watched your videos.
Secondly we have entered into so many discussions about it that your descriptions have been laid out. They are unrecognizable to me as anything internal, instead they are Chinese internal art principles. Which have nothing at all to do with internal strength. In and of themselves they make some damn good jujutsu. But they are taught to westerners in Taiwan specifically to teach them decent martial arts, but also to prevent them from getting the goods.

You can read story after story about some of the "famous" CMA guys in Taiwan who don't have it, but who can fight really well. Its common knowledge among certain people. As one masterclass guy was fond of saying about a well known ICMA fighter who was all external. "He impresses all the foreigners, which is good, it keeps them from coming here and bugging me."

There are certain aspects of internal movement that are obvious and transparent. When someone doesn't have connection...BANG..it's in your face. It is inescapable.
So for many who have actually felt those with internal power not internal martial arts waza and principles...The one overriding argument is that when someone is connected..anyone....there are certain tells. They move with a certain basic tenent of connection that is unaviodably obvious or absent.

People who are connected respond to load a certain way. It drives people absolutely nuts when I say it....but I have never been wrong about it. And once I felt the guy or others have..it was settled. This is as true of Menkyo's as it is in BJJ all stars. Center and connection cannot be hidden nor can it be pretended. People can be great at their art, or great fighters. None of which is a qualifier for IS or aiki.
It's just...the way it is.
As LCD says "You cannot pretend dantian, you will be found out."

When you suffer from lack of connection certain things happen when you:
Encounter load
Gradually fail against load and move
Move someone else
Move someone you really cannot move and certain things happen to you (see the above)
And those are just basic at the start tells.
You see it.
Then the more advanced stuff comes into play....

This isn't difficult to understand from a martial arts perspective.
If someone claims to be a shihan in this or that art...all you have to do is watch him move right? You know if he is moving in accord with expected attributes of a given art. At a point things he either fits his skill level or doesn't. Guys watch vids and comment on stuff like that....all the time. Its the same with someone claiming to have internal strength or aiki.

Barring you meeting with me I'd rather not hear any more about my lack of understanding of IP. As you yourself often say, you don't know until you've felt them.
I didn't say you had to feel them. Someone else said that. I do agree that certain things do have to be felt, but not all. And the most basic are obvious.
Dan

DH
09-26-2012, 09:21 PM
One last more simple way to look at it from my view, Chris
If someone is wobbling under load while they do waza...what does that tell you?
That they're connected?
Or disconnected?
Now
What if they are one side weighted?
Then
Why do so many budo people wobble and purposefully place themselves in a one side weighted type of movement?
Once you know and can prevent these things from happening what are you supposed to think when you see Shihan doing it.
Then
Shihan love what you show them and want to train it TO FIX THEIR OWN MOVEMENT?
And again, these are just baby steps in building a bujutsu body. The fun stuff happens later.
Dan

ChrisHein
09-26-2012, 10:33 PM
When I was a kid, I used to have this neighbor kid I would play with. Every time we would play something, like say cowboys, when I shot him, he would tell me I missed. Then I would get closer and shoot him again, and he would tell me that he had an invisible force field. This would go on and on. He always won the games we played.

I don't know why I thought of him just now...

DH
09-26-2012, 10:45 PM
Well, that was an unfortunate commentary. Remember though-in public now over a thousand people, many of whom (from shodan to shihan, from MMA to ICMA) were coming to discredit me. I don't have the force field, Chris and I am open book trying to help.
Okay then
Dan

Lorel Latorilla
09-27-2012, 08:37 AM
When I was a kid, I used to have this neighbor kid I would play with. Every time we would play something, like say cowboys, when I shot him, he would tell me I missed. Then I would get closer and shoot him again, and he would tell me that he had an invisible force field. This would go on and on. He always won the games we played.

I don't know why I thought of him just now...

No offense dude, but you need to get yourself and get over your obsession with Dan. Dan has repeated so many times that it is not about him.

To stay on topic, Liu Cheng De is awesome.

chillzATL
09-27-2012, 09:14 AM
Question: Is heaven/earth/man a commonly enough and openly enough discussed concept in CIMA that anyone doing an CIMA should be familiar with it on a physical level?

ewolput
09-27-2012, 09:19 AM
Secondly we have entered into so many discussions about it that your descriptions have been laid out. They are unrecognizable to me as anything internal, instead they are Chinese internal art principles. Which have nothing at all to do with internal strength. In and of themselves they make some damn good jujutsu.

Dan

Can someone explain me why Chinese internal art principles have nothing to do with internal strenght. As I understand IS is based upon "principles" (=some knowledge) and "correct" training.
Or is did mere a typo mistake?

Just curious,
Eddy

stan baker
09-27-2012, 09:59 AM
Hi Eddy
I am glad someone else notice that
Stan

Budd
09-27-2012, 12:04 PM
Question: Is heaven/earth/man a commonly enough and openly enough discussed concept in CIMA that anyone doing an CIMA should be familiar with it on a physical level?

Well, that gets tricky - they may be familiar with their definition of what that principle means, which in reality then does not translate into any demonstrable physical skill. It's like the buzzwords in aikido - someone can say I use "ki" or "kokyu" in a technique, but then it's all externally powered movement with a big exhale at the end.

Strictly speaking, the heaven/earth/man notion of internal strength principles is kind of a classically written in stone thing that many martial artists (including Ueshiba) referenced to show 1) They were in the club with the buzzwords 2) Their skill and practice were in accordance with the buzzwords. (I'm being facetious about the buzzwords, go ahead and insert your own terms - universal principles, laws of reality, physics, yadda yadda). Of course your ability to discern to what level someone's words and skills were in accordance with the buzzwords also depended on your own understanding and achievement in what the buzzwords were describing.

Simple, really.

gregstec
09-27-2012, 06:35 PM
When I was a kid, I used to have this neighbor kid I would play with. Every time we would play something, like say cowboys, when I shot him, he would tell me I missed. Then I would get closer and shoot him again, and he would tell me that he had an invisible force field. This would go on and on. He always won the games we played.

I don't know why I thought of him just now...

Well that certainly explains a lot - maybe if you took a lesson out of Kirk's performance in the Kobayashi Maru simulation you may have learned to think out of the box to overcome the no win scenario; as well open the door for some insight into other things that may not agree with your initial view and understanding as you progress through life. :)

Greg

ChrisHein
09-28-2012, 05:33 PM
Well, I'm pretty happy I had this conversation. I think, at least for myself, I hashed out some issues I was having.

Frankly I don't know why I cared what you guys call what you are doing, or what you call what I am doing. For some reason I had a major hang up on that. I hope I've gotten over it, as I've done some serious thinking about it the last few days.

You have your practice, and I mine. Your reasons for training are yours and mine are mine. Seems simple, but I wasn't seeing it clearly. Anyways, thanks for the chat, it was appreciated!

David Orange
09-29-2012, 08:57 AM
A big shift began for me when I studied Feldenkrais and he (his Method and writings) directed my attention toward smaller and smaller movements until I noticed a place between thought and movement where everything begins.



Just to clarify again, I'm not saying Feldenkrais teaches IP/IS.

To me, Feldenkrais is like WD40 for the mind/body connection.

It allows you to become more and more subtly aware of the mind's access to the body.

If you're a dancer, it will make you better.

If you're an actor, an athlete, a musician, or just an ordinary person, Feldenkrais helps you become more aware and thus, more able to enact your intentions within your body.

It does not, in itself, teach IP/IS, but it makes me more able to feel and understand the things said on these boards.

David

gregstec
09-29-2012, 09:17 AM
Just to clarify again, I'm not saying Feldenkrais teaches IP/IS.

To me, Feldenkrais is like WD40 for the mind/body connection.

It allows you to become more and more subtly aware of the mind's access to the body.

If you're a dancer, it will make you better.

If you're an actor, an athlete, a musician, or just an ordinary person, Feldenkrais helps you become more aware and thus, more able to enact your intentions within your body.

It does not, in itself, teach IP/IS, but it makes me more able to feel and understand the things said on these boards.

David

True - to train the internal, you must first get your mind in the internal so it can lead the body; as in heart, mind, intent, ki, body....

Greg

David Orange
09-29-2012, 12:47 PM
True - to train the internal, you must first get your mind in the internal so it can lead the body; as in heart, mind, intent, ki, body....


You still have to do the "concrete methods" to develop the skills and power, but even there, Feldenkrais can help in recognizing small differences. The smaller the difference you can recognize, the finer the effect you can produce. But you still have to do the "concrete methods."

David

DH
10-02-2012, 11:40 AM
Can someone explain me why Chinese internal art principles have nothing to do with internal strenght. As I understand IS is based upon "principles" (=some knowledge) and "correct" training.
Or is did mere a typo mistake?

Just curious,
Eddy

Hello Eddy
No, not a typo.
Taken in steps - martial arts are typically taught as:
1. Lower level: taught as techniques
2. Mid level: discussed as principles of movement " behind" those techniques.
3. High level: Internal movement as a precursor to all movement

In reverse (and correct) order to learn high level budo-you start over and learn:
1. Motion, in stillness: control and management of forces within yourself to create a balance of ki within yourself ai-ki
then
2. Stillness in motion: how you carry that awareness and management into controlling forces that alight on you- from the outside and manage them in accord with your own control of forces within you, thus neutralizing and managing them again.
3. This, builds with a totally different means to manage your body with a new set of
"principles of movement" to further neutralize force enacted upon you yet again..aiki. But now in a different way that normal movement can only hope to mimic. this is the essense of real aiki that captured the attention of seasoned warriors. The aiki that controlled and impressed so many.

It is, simply put...a different way to move.

The "principles of movement" behind the waza we usually see are all based on external movement that every Tom, Dick and Harry does. This is beneficial for superior teachers, as it teaches virtually all of the participants in budo to move in a fashion that is easier to take apart. One small example is teaching people to move "one side weighted." This is the way humans move, budo can strengthen and deepen that movement in you in its teaching...thus you are primed...to be thrown or to have to fight back with muscle. Which is very good for the teachers isn't it? Teaching you to move from center and to have aiki in you...is to teach you to be extremely difficult to deal with-for that same teacher teaching you. Interestingly a significant source for this high level work in the Japanese arts said publicly "Only teach one or two people per generation."

Why principles don't work all the time and people cannot duplicate perceived movement:
You can see martial artists all over trying to duplicate the movement of more connected teachers they see-yet they cannot achieve the same results. The reason is that almost nobody in budo moves from or is connected to their center well. It only takes a few seconds to demonstrate that to them in person. Beyond all their hopes and statements to the contrary-they really don't know how to do something as simple as -move from their center. When you lack that connection, higher level principles (based on connected movement) fail to function. The foundational requirement is missing.

Beyond all of this, there is a totally new playground of moving and connecting with people; with different modes of moving and absorbing and redirecting forces previously not attainable by people who lacked centered movement. And this has it's own levels of movement. We can add significantly to that by an awakened dantian...moving.

These things continue to be debated on the internet...and then clearly demonstrated in person and all debate....ends.
In order to truly understand, you have to walk away from waza and many of the principles of movement we have all been taught- based on lower level external movement, and begin again...creating a bujutsu body.
Dan

Eric Joyce
10-02-2012, 12:08 PM
Hello Eddy
No, not a typo.
Taken in steps - martial arts are typically taught as:
1. Lower level: taught as techniques
2. Mid level: discussed as principles of movement " behind" those techniques.
3. High level: Internal movement as a precursor to all movement

In reverse (and correct) order to learn high level budo-you start over and learn:
1. Motion, in stillness: control and management of forces within yourself to create a balance of ki within yourself ai-ki
then
2. Stillness in motion: how you carry that awareness and management into controlling forces that alight on you- from the outside and manage them in accord with your own control of forces within you, thus neutralizing and managing them again.
3. This, builds with a totally different means to manage your body with a new set of
"principles of movement" to further neutralize force enacted upon you yet again..aiki. But now in a different way that normal movement can only hope to mimic. this is the essense of real aiki that captured the attention of seasoned warriors. The aiki that controlled and impressed so many.

It is, simply put...a different way to move.

The "principles of movement" behind the waza we usually see are all based on external movement that every Tom, Dick and Harry does. This is beneficial for superior teachers, as it teaches virtually all of the participants in budo to move in a fashion that is easier to take apart. One small example is teaching people to move "one side weighted." This is the way humans move, budo can strengthen and deepen that movement in you in its teaching...thus you are primed...to be thrown or to have to fight back with muscle. Which is very good for the teachers isn't it? Teaching you to move from center and to have aiki in you...is to teach you to be extremely difficult to deal with-for that same teacher teaching you. Interestingly a significant source for this high level work in the Japanese arts said publicly "Only teach one or two people per generation."

Why principles don't work all the time and people cannot duplicate perceived movement:
You can see martial artists all over trying to duplicate the movement of more connected teachers they see-yet they cannot achieve the same results. The reason is that almost nobody in budo moves from or is connected to their center well. It only takes a few seconds to demonstrate that to them in person. Beyond all their hopes and statements to the contrary-they really don't know how to do something as simple as -move from their center. When you lack that connection, higher level principles (based on connected movement) fail to function. The foundational requirement is missing.

Beyond all of this, there is a totally new playground of moving and connecting with people; with different modes of moving and absorbing and redirecting forces previously not attainable by people who lacked centered movement. And this has it's own levels of movement. We can add significantly to that by an awakened dantian...moving.

These things continue to be debated on the internet...and then clearly demonstrated in person and all debate....ends.
In order to truly understand, you have to walk away from waza and many of the principles of movement we have all been taught- based on lower level external movement, and begin again...creating a bujutsu body.
Dan

Nice post Dan. Very well said.

Marc Abrams
10-02-2012, 12:26 PM
In order to truly understand, you have to walk away from waza and many of the principles of movement we have all been taught- based on lower level external movement, and begin again...creating a bujutsu body.
Dan

Dan:

I would strongly suggest that people spend A LOT of time learning how to create the bujutsu body. I would also suggest that as this is occurring, re-examine waza and experiment with allowing waza to be expressed through that body. I am experimenting with this approach and would encourage others to do so as well.

Cordially,

Marc Abrams

MM
10-02-2012, 12:41 PM
Dan:

I would strongly suggest that people spend A LOT of time learning how to create the bujutsu body. I would also suggest that as this is occurring, re-examine waza and experiment with allowing waza to be expressed through that body. I am experimenting with this approach and would encourage others to do so as well.

Cordially,

Marc Abrams

Hi Marc,

Reminds me of this quote from Tada: Morihei Ueshiba Sensei said, "When I move technique is produced".

Thanks to Chris Li for the translated article here:
http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-09-30/aikido-shihan-hiroshi-tada-the-budo-body-part-8

DH
10-02-2012, 01:50 PM
Hi Marc,
Reminds me of this quote from Tada: Morihei Ueshiba Sensei said, "When I move, technique is produced."
There has been a rumour for years as to the explanation regarding Daito ryu's different waza and the now well known model of not repeating techniques. That Takeda was free wheeling it (just as Ueshiba was-and maybe as Ueshiba was taught) and people were copying and more or less recording movements that later...became... waza. Hence the addition of scrolls as time went on.
Dan

Chris Li
10-02-2012, 02:04 PM
Hi Marc,

Reminds me of this quote from Tada: Morihei Ueshiba Sensei said, "When I move technique is produced".

Thanks to Chris Li for the translated article here:
http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-09-30/aikido-shihan-hiroshi-tada-the-budo-body-part-8

The literal translation is that technique "comes into being" or "is born" - maybe I should have used that, the imagery is a little richer.

Anyway, it seems clear to me that he's not talking about "doing" or "applying" a technique, but is talking about something that is created spontaneously from his condition or state of being.

Tada seems to imply that this is automatic movement conditioned by repeated kata training - but I tend to think that approach goes too far down the wrong path, if that's what he's thinking.

Best,

Chris

Marc Abrams
10-02-2012, 02:27 PM
The literal translation is that technique "comes into being" or "is born" - maybe I should have used that, the imagery is a little richer.

Anyway, it seems clear to me that he's not talking about "doing" or "applying" a technique, but is talking about something that is created spontaneously from his condition or state of being.

Tada seems to imply that this is automatic movement conditioned by repeated kata training - but I tend to think that approach goes too far down the wrong path, if that's what he's thinking.

Best,

Chris

Chris:

That reminds me of a story I was told that when the US film crew was filming O'Sensei and Tohei Sensei. O'Sensei did a kokyu-nage and they asked him to do it again for the film. He did another kokyu-nage and they asked him why did not repeat what he was asked to do again. O'Sensei looked at them with a puzzled look and told them that he did.

Marc Abrams

gregstec
10-02-2012, 06:45 PM
The literal translation is that technique "comes into being" or "is born" - maybe I should have used that, the imagery is a little richer.

Anyway, it seems clear to me that he's not talking about "doing" or "applying" a technique, but is talking about something that is created spontaneously from his condition or state of being.

Tada seems to imply that this is automatic movement conditioned by repeated kata training - but I tend to think that approach goes too far down the wrong path, if that's what he's thinking.

Best,

Chris

That is the way I understand it - a true technique is a result of the moment and cannot be duplicated exactly because a moment is unique and is gone in...well, a moment :)

Greg

Gary David
10-02-2012, 08:36 PM
Hello Eddy
No, not a typo.
Taken in steps - martial arts are typically taught as:
1. Lower level: taught as techniques
2. Mid level: discussed as principles of movement " behind" those techniques.
3. High level: Internal movement as a precursor to all movement

In reverse (and correct) order to learn high level budo-you start over and learn:
1. Motion, in stillness: control and management of forces within yourself to create a balance of ki within yourself ai-ki
then
2. Stillness in motion: how you carry that awareness and management into controlling forces that alight on you- from the outside and manage them in accord with your own control of forces within you, thus neutralizing and managing them again.
3. This, builds with a totally different means to manage your body with a new set of
"principles of movement" to further neutralize force enacted upon you yet again..aiki. But now in a different way that normal movement can only hope to mimic. this is the essense of real aiki that captured the attention of seasoned warriors. The aiki that controlled and impressed so many.

It is, simply put...a different way to move.

The "principles of movement" behind the waza we usually see are all based on external movement that every Tom, Dick and Harry does. This is beneficial for superior teachers, as it teaches virtually all of the participants in budo to move in a fashion that is easier to take apart. One small example is teaching people to move "one side weighted." This is the way humans move, budo can strengthen and deepen that movement in you in its teaching...thus you are primed...to be thrown or to have to fight back with muscle. Which is very good for the teachers isn't it? Teaching you to move from center and to have aiki in you...is to teach you to be extremely difficult to deal with-for that same teacher teaching you. Interestingly a significant source for this high level work in the Japanese arts said publicly "Only teach one or two people per generation."

Why principles don't work all the time and people cannot duplicate perceived movement:
You can see martial artists all over trying to duplicate the movement of more connected teachers they see-yet they cannot achieve the same results. The reason is that almost nobody in budo moves from or is connected to their center well. It only takes a few seconds to demonstrate that to them in person. Beyond all their hopes and statements to the contrary-they really don't know how to do something as simple as -move from their center. When you lack that connection, higher level principles (based on connected movement) fail to function. The foundational requirement is missing.

Beyond all of this, there is a totally new playground of moving and connecting with people; with different modes of moving and absorbing and redirecting forces previously not attainable by people who lacked centered movement. And this has it's own levels of movement. We can add significantly to that by an awakened dantian...moving.

These things continue to be debated on the internet...and then clearly demonstrated in person and all debate....ends.
In order to truly understand, you have to walk away from waza and many of the principles of movement we have all been taught- based on lower level external movement, and begin again...creating a bujutsu body.
Dan

Dan
I shared this entry with John Clodig and he commented that it was succinct and to the point.....a lot said in a few words.......that he better understands where you are coming from......and that he agrees.....
Gary

ewolput
10-03-2012, 06:50 AM
Hi Dan,
thank you for taken the time to answer my question. I have nothing to add or ask a new question for the moment.
This time the discussion is not going into a debate "welles nietes". This is a dutch/flemish expression for "my point of view is better then yours".

Eddy