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James Sawers
08-20-2012, 01:59 PM
I'm pretty new to this site, but have been reading with interest the ongoing discussions some are having re Internal Power Systems. My answer may already be buried somewhere in all the various threads over time, but can anyone please tell me the source of this Internal Power? Are we talking about "ki", "chi", whatever, or just some "non-ki", physical skill set?

Thanks......

:circle:

Rob Watson
08-20-2012, 02:11 PM
I'm pretty new to this site, but have been reading with interest the ongoing discussions some are having re Internal Power Systems. My answer may already be buried somewhere in all the various threads over time, but can anyone please tell me the source of this Internal Power? Are we talking about "ki", "chi", whatever, or just some "non-ki", physical skill set?

Thanks......

:circle:

Evidently one must look in the non-aikido section ...

Buy Ellis Amdurs "Hidden in Plain Sight" (aka HIPS). Read evertyhing posted by Mike Sigman and Dan Harden (despite the appearences they are both chasing the same dragon).

The source is inside you. Work to find it. One cannot catch that fish by trolling.

Chris Evans
08-20-2012, 02:58 PM
the Source of Internal Power begins with the will power that does pushups everyday, reaching 200+ continuous push ups on your wrists or finger tips, just to warm up for aikido.

trolls can be dealt with by shining the (sun)light of truth or by ignoring them.

hughrbeyer
08-20-2012, 06:42 PM
Why do we think this is a troll?

My understanding of IS is that there's no mysticism in it. It's about using the mind to organize the body in ways that don't depend on muscular strength. Instead it depends on connecting the body internally (possibly through the fascial connective tissue) so that the whole power of of the body can be delivered at any point. Ki may be a useful visualization tool whether or not it has physical reality.

James Sawers
08-20-2012, 06:49 PM
Hugh:

Thanks for taking the time to answer. Your answer certainly has helped me.

As a newbie here I feel that I have jumped into the middle of a conversation that I don't have a full understanding of the terms being used. So, was just seeking some clarity so that I could follow the discussions better.

Thanks.....Jim

hughrbeyer
08-20-2012, 07:34 PM
The Ki Wars have been going on for a very long time. Those who lived through them are apt to interpret an innocent question as a not-so-innocent attempt to reignite them.

James Sawers
08-20-2012, 11:48 PM
It's a big Aikido World out there. The longer I am in it, the less I seem to know. Out of all the IP/IS names I've seen mentioned here on this site, I only recognized one, Ikeda Sensei. I had the opportunity to attend one of his seminars a few years ago. Interesting stuff. As far as I know, there is not too much of this kind of training in my area, so I have not been able to follow through with additional type training. Hence my interest here when I see a discussion revolving around this.

Thanks....

phitruong
08-21-2012, 08:02 AM
Out of all the IP/IS names I've seen mentioned here on this site, I only recognized one, Ikeda Sensei. I had the opportunity to attend one of his seminars a few years ago. Interesting stuff. As far as I know, there is not too much of this kind of training in my area, so I have not been able to follow through with additional type training. Hence my interest here when I see a discussion revolving around this.

Thanks....

if you hang around aikiweb for awhile you will see two camps. one camp views IP as a spirit kind of thing as in a strong will, for example, got shot but still continue to move forward or a more spiritual type of thing. one camp views IP as a physical skill, a way to use your body for efficiently, that can be trained. often, you will see both camps trying to argue their points about IP, which often be hilarious, at least to me.

Since you have attended one of Ikeda Sensei seminar, then you know that he didn't really teach techniques at seminar. he usually taught the IP/IS stuffs, then related it to aikido movement. he separated the aikido into two categories: aikido movement and aikido technique. aikido movements are the ikkyo, kotegaeshi, shihonage, and so on. aikido technique is the IP/IS, the thing that makes the aikido movements worked. he often picked the biggest ukes (sometimes multiple of them) to demonstrate his point, for example, in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfWXEuEgYI

Because his, Ikeda Sensei, english isn't as good and IP/IS topics are rather confusing, it's very hard to learn from his approach. you will need some outside help for that, just as Ikeda sensei got the ideas from Ushiro sensei (a karate teacher). outside help included Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, Akuzawa Minoru and one of his student Rob John, Ushiro sensei, Howard Popkin, big names in Chen taichi, and so on. you will find a bunch of followers of the above folks around the world. their numbers are small but growing. you started to wonder, hey, how come all these guys are non-aikido folks and what i possibly learn from them to make my aikido "worked". the answer, Ikeda sensei got the stuffs from Ushiro sensei and took his aikido into another dimension. IP/IS skill isn't martial arts specifics. it's a general body skill. learn able, train able, do able. if you pay attention to the event listing here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80 you will find the various names shown up. good luck.

btw, it will take a lot of works, mostly solo, and time, which required some endurance spirit which is the other side of the camp. :)

Marc Abrams
08-21-2012, 09:03 AM
if you hang around aikiweb for awhile you will see two camps. one camp views IP as a spirit kind of thing as in a strong will, for example, got shot but still continue to move forward or a more spiritual type of thing. one camp views IP as a physical skill, a way to use your body for efficiently, that can be trained. often, you will see both camps trying to argue their points about IP, which often be hilarious, at least to me.

Since you have attended one of Ikeda Sensei seminar, then you know that he didn't really teach techniques at seminar. he usually taught the IP/IS stuffs, then related it to aikido movement. he separated the aikido into two categories: aikido movement and aikido technique. aikido movements are the ikkyo, kotegaeshi, shihonage, and so on. aikido technique is the IP/IS, the thing that makes the aikido movements worked. he often picked the biggest ukes (sometimes multiple of them) to demonstrate his point, for example, in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfWXEuEgYI

Because his, Ikeda Sensei, english isn't as good and IP/IS topics are rather confusing, it's very hard to learn from his approach. you will need some outside help for that, just as Ikeda sensei got the ideas from Ushiro sensei (a karate teacher). outside help included Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, Akuzawa Minoru and one of his student Rob John, Ushiro sensei, Howard Popkin, big names in Chen taichi, and so on. you will find a bunch of followers of the above folks around the world. their numbers are small but growing. you started to wonder, hey, how come all these guys are non-aikido folks and what i possibly learn from them to make my aikido "worked". the answer, Ikeda sensei got the stuffs from Ushiro sensei and took his aikido into another dimension. IP/IS skill isn't martial arts specifics. it's a general body skill. learn able, train able, do able. if you pay attention to the event listing here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80 you will find the various names shown up. good luck.

btw, it will take a lot of works, mostly solo, and time, which required some endurance spirit which is the other side of the camp. :)

And now for some blatant commercialism......

Ushiro Sensei will be Seattle, Washington this weekend! For more information, you can contact Josh Drachman at jdrachman1@juno.com

This is an excellent opportunity for Aikidoka to try and discern why Ikeda Sensei thinks so highly of Ushiro Sensei's teachings. I will obviously be in attendance, so people can see in person what cruel, heartless person I am....:eek: .

Marc Abrams

DodgingRain
08-21-2012, 09:46 AM
My understanding of so called 'internal power' is limited, but I have heard it invovles methods of reconditioning the tendons and ligaments throughout the body; connecting and strengthening them throughout the body according to that art's specific applications.

As far as I know, there are very limited modern methods for specifically exercising the tendons/ligaments network throughout the body. Many older traditions with high level physical culture (martial arts / yoga) had methods specifically for developing and strengthening these systems, each art with their own distinct variations according to their art's body method/techniques/applications.

Ancients did not have the vocabulary for this network of tendons/ligaments, hence the "qi/chi/ki" paradigm (highly open to misinterpretation) was used to convey this concept with varying results.

DodgingRain
08-21-2012, 10:04 AM
There are many other aspects of 'internal power' that are emphasized more or less depending on the art - ground connection, spiraling, use of the mind/intent in very specific ways, breath use, etc. but in my opinion, all of these also depend on the restructured reconditioned tendon/ligament network.

phitruong
08-21-2012, 10:15 AM
There are many other aspects of 'internal power' that are emphasized more or less depending on the art - ground connection, spiraling, use of the mind/intent in very specific ways, breath use, etc. but in my opinion, all of these also depend on the restructured reconditioned tendon/ligament network.

this is true. there are many approaches to IP/IS. not all are equal. depends on people's inclination. some method worked better for some, but not to others, and vice versa. finding the one that is right for you, in itself, is an exercise in frustration. perseverance. btw, in away, that is a filtering mechanism to see if you have what it takes or not.

Rob Watson
08-21-2012, 11:56 AM
My understanding of so called 'internal power' is limited, but I have heard it invovles methods of reconditioning the tendons and ligaments throughout the body; connecting and strengthening them throughout the body according to that art's specific applications.

As far as I know, there are very limited modern methods for specifically exercising the tendons/ligaments network throughout the body. Many older traditions with high level physical culture (martial arts / yoga) had methods specifically for developing and strengthening these systems, each art with their own distinct variations according to their art's body method/techniques/applications.

Ancients did not have the vocabulary for this network of tendons/ligaments, hence the "qi/chi/ki" paradigm (highly open to misinterpretation) was used to convey this concept with varying results.

Nope. Tendons and ligaments can be strengthed in the usual weight training, plyometrics, etc stuff 'normal' athletics. IP/IS/aiki is something different. The 'ancients' do indeed have a vocabulary for both internals and externals.

Yi jin jing aka "muscle/tendon changing classic" for example contrast with (actually lost text) xu sui jing aka "bone marrow/brain washing classic" for the basic ancient dichotomy of external versus internal.

None of this matters until you find someone able to manifest 'unusual strength' and who can and is willing to teach it to you.

chillzATL
08-21-2012, 01:42 PM
Nope. Tendons and ligaments can be strengthed in the usual weight training, plyometrics, etc stuff 'normal' athletics. IP/IS/aiki is something different.

FWIW, I think Brett was using "tendons and ligaments throughout the body" as a catchall for the actual physical aspects of IS/IP that have to be conditioned and not using it in the sense of normal athletics and/or strength and conditioning.

James Sawers
08-21-2012, 02:59 PM
I appreciate all the posts and everyone taking the time to respond, especially as this seems to be an old point of discussion.

I have looked at all the info offered (briefly, in some cases, but will go over it all in time) and watched some videos of Ushiro Sensei. Interesting. I am a Nidan in Aikido (Birankai) and have been practicing for about 15 years, not long by aikido standards, dabbling in a few other arts along the way, but I seem to have reached a plateau in my training. If nothing else, this has given me a new and different direction to consider in my training.

Again, thanks....

In good practice.....

Jim......