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adriangan
07-09-2002, 07:30 PM
hey guys,

i was just wondering, how would one know when s/he's going to fight or flee? i'm asking this because anyone could say that s/he is going to fight now but when the time comes you can never tell right?

so for those with experience out there, what motivated you to fight? was it confidence? or was it something else?


just curious,

adrian

shihonage
07-09-2002, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by adriangan

so for those with experience out there, what motivated you to fight? was it confidence? or was it something else?


Stupidity, in my case.

MaylandL
07-09-2002, 08:48 PM
Hello Adrian

This site has some info that you might find interesting and relevant.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/home.html

Happy training :)

Chocolateuke
07-09-2002, 11:02 PM
aww showing my 2nd fav site eh??

nikonl
07-09-2002, 11:47 PM
speaking bout that website, while reading it, Aikido keeps coming to my mind. Anyone had the same thoughts?

MaylandL
07-09-2002, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by nikon
speaking bout that website, while reading it, Aikido keeps coming to my mind. Anyone had the same thoughts?

:confused:

Hello Leslie

Can you please elaborate?

Hello Dallas

Great website developed by a guy that's been there, done that and got the t shirt..nuff said ;)

nikonl
07-10-2002, 10:21 AM
what i mean is that, by following Aikido principles, we are already doing what the website teaches.

adriangan
07-10-2002, 07:38 PM
hi mayland,

great site, got a lot out off it. but marc macyoung was a professional bodyguard, bouncer, etc. so it seems like in his line of work he didn't have any choice but to fight.

I wanna hear from someone who didn't have to fight for a living, an ordinary guy...like me :)

any takers?

MaylandL
07-10-2002, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by nikon
what i mean is that, by following Aikido principles, we are already doing what the website teaches.

Thank you Leslie. Hmmm...interesting thought. In a way I would agree but I think that Mr Marc MacYoung is also talking about "street smarts" and the ability to "read the intent" of people. I'm not sure that Aikido covers that aspect of it.

As I understand it, from what I've read on his website, its about deescalating the situation from a very pragmatic perspective. I'm not really explaining this very well, since I'm still unpacking what Mr MacYoung is espousing.

Hello again Adrian

Glad you found the website interesting. I agree that Mr MacYoung has work in a number of jobs that has placed him in confrontational and violent situation. From what I read, I don't think he chose to fight but he did choose to defend himself in order to survive. From that perspective, his experiences are very instructive.

When I got jumped taking the garbage out at night I didnt choose to fight, I just wanted to defend myself and not end up like a military academy - bits of me keep passing out ;)

Like Mr MacYoung said, whether we choose to fight or not is a very complex question. Sometimes, no matter what you do they are still going to want to take your head off and then use it as a chamber pot. There can be so many variables. Like once, some guy came up to me when I was heading home from work. He wanted a cigarette but I dont smoke and I told him that. Without going into the boring details, he wouldnt believe I didnt have any and got belligerent and abusive. I offered him a couple of bucks so he could buy some, but to no avail. In that situation and the previous one, I was really lucky not to get into more trouble. Based on my very limited experiences, I can appreciate and concur with what Mr MacYoung has commented on in his website.

Best stop before this ends up like an expanded version of war and peace. Happy training all :)

SeiserL
07-11-2002, 10:52 AM
Actually, people have general cognitive sorting patterns (metaprograms) that tend to predict moving "away from" (flight) or "towards" (fight) a goal. Don't forget "freeze" and the Aiki "flow" as responses too.

What motivate you, the goal (towards) or the punishment (away)? When you startle, do you move away to towards to stimuli? Do you avoid conflict or confrtont it?


We all have our patterns. They are just a learn response pattern in life. Because the are learned, they can be unlearned and relearned if you want to.

Until again,

Lynn

adriangan
07-11-2002, 07:53 PM
When you startle, do you move away to towards to stimuli?


Hi Lynn, sometimes i move towards the stimuli, sometimes away, but most of the time i freeze up. :(



We all have our patterns. They are just a learn response pattern in life. Because the are learned, they can be unlearned and relearned if you want to.


how can one be programmed to confront conflict? i just wanna know that when the time comes i have to act, i would and not just freeze up :)

DaveO
07-11-2002, 10:08 PM
Lynn Seiser said:
"Actually, people have general cognitive sorting patterns (metaprograms) that tend to predict moving "away from" (flight) or "towards" (fight) a goal. Don't forget "freeze" and the Aiki "flow" as responses too."

I was curious - knowing nothing about psychology - are the 'metaprograms' you're talking about concious or unconcious decisions, or something else? See, in a situation, I tend to move in on an opponent - not necessarily to attack, but to get inside his arcs. That, however, is a learned trait. As a skinny kid, my impulse was to run - fast. Now, I'm taking Aikido in an effort to learn to fight defensively and non-aggressively. LOL - I still tend to lunge forward in rendori, I'm learning...
You're obviously educated in this area, Lynn - would appreciate your insights for curiosity.

Harms
07-12-2002, 07:42 AM
how can one be programmed to confront conflict? i just wanna know that when the time comes i have to act, i would and not just freeze up :)

By repeating a pattern over and over again, like we do in practise, we are learning the lower levels of our brains to recognise the pattern and to take appropriate action.

In one of my earlier tests I was asked to preforme a technique on shomen uchi ki no nagare. This was something that I hadn't practised on for the test but I didn't get any time to think since my uke attacted me. My next coherrent thought was after I had preformed a kote gaeshi. I didn't think during the technique I just reacted. It was a wonderfull fealing and I long to feel it again. :)

/Tobias Harms

adriangan
07-12-2002, 09:47 AM
thank tobias,

but i was wondering, wouldn't you're body react differently in a 'real' situation, even if we practice hard, or practice with real 'live' weapons, on the mat we really don't have any intention of killing or severly harming our nages do we? :freaky: cause the way i see it, we can practice all we like and still end up freezing up in the end :) please correct me if i'm wrong.


regards,

SeiserL
07-12-2002, 12:42 PM
IMHO, all patterns are learned patterns. I don't know if that's true or not, but believing it is useful. Until they can show me the fight or flight or freeze gene, I will continue to believe that it is learned.

We usually had some expereince that initaly taught us a response pattern and then hbituated it through practice.

Often the fight, flight, freeze pattern is based on fear. Fear is based on an internal fantasy that something bad will happen to you. Usually this is so habituated we are unconscious of it and so it feels automatic and "natural". While it may be "normal" for us, it is not natural because we have to do something to create the fear to create the response pattern.

Training it out is usually two fold. The first is to change the internal fantasy. Change the head and the body has a chance to follow. Mental rehearsal helps herre too. Then change the body behavior response by repetitive practice that starts slow and relaxed, very conscious, then builds over time to a simple see the simuli and have a bahavior response without an internal dialogue about detection, assessment, selection, and decision about what to do. That's for the Dojo, not the street. Remember that how you train will be how you fight. The closer the training to the real thing the easier it is to transfer the knowledge. We used to say the more you sweat in training, the less you bleed or die in combat.

If you try to just change the body without changing the mind you may end up with resistance if the body want to move one way and the mind wanting to move another.

The metaprogram of away/towards is just one of many that we use in neurolinguistic programming to understand how our minds represent something. The mind (and even the ego/identity) is the internal map we use to make sense of the territory. When the map and territory match, life is easy. When the map and the territory don't match, life gets very complicated. Most people try to change the territory, getting everyone to live up to their map. Its easier to change the map, our minds. Remember, the map is not the territory. Its only an arbitrary representation.

Fight, flight, freeze, or flow is just learned patterns. Don't identify too much with them or take them too seriously. Decide what you want, what you have to do to get it, and then do it.

Does that clarify matters? Hope so. This has got to be one of my longer posts.

Until again,

Lynn

REK
07-12-2002, 12:53 PM
thank tobias,

... cause the way i see it, we can practice all we like and still end up freezing up in the end :) please correct me if i'm wrong.


regards,

You are quite correct. Training as it is done in most dojos do attempt to "program" the motor portions of the brain as well as their connections to the executive parts. For this physical response to occur without forethought the "lower" centers have aquired a command of the movements.

Although the physical movements and joining of "attack" to "response" (E.G. yokomenuchi to shihonage) can flow in the dojo, it does NOT mean this will be the way you respond to a real physical threat in general form of a yokomen uchi.

What's the difference? There is a part of your brain (the amygdala, you have one in each hemisphere) that essentially scans your environment constantly for threat. It's function is to determine if any stimulus that comes to perception is dangerous. If the answer is no, then the next step can proceed. If the answer is yes, then the hypothalamus responds by commanding the release of energy and chemicals into your bloodstream. After 20,000 yokomenuchi shihonage repititions in the dojo, it is reasonable to expect your amygdalae to see the yokomen, answer the question as "no" and allow you to respond as you have been trained. Keep in mind that these brain centers are not accessible by conscious thought, introspection or talking about it. Experience is the only thing that will change how it assesses the world.

"On the street" (I hate that phrase, but you understand what I mean) your brain will assess a stranger swinging a bat at your head very differently. The surging electoneurochemical response causes some to freeze, some to over-react and some lucky blokes to briefly become a functional rokudan.

"You play like you practice" is very true regarding the "programming" Lynn referred to. At our modest levels, the best way to be combat effective is mimic the goal situation as closely as possible. The military learned this long ago. That's why the most successful combat units are the ones whose trainings weren't just aiming at circles and taking runs on the beach.

Sorry for the longwindedness, but I love to talk about what I do for a living. The brain stuff, not the shooting stuff :D

Rob