ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

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[Mary Eastland]

I realized this morning again why the emphasis in Ki testing should be kept non-competitive. The focus can get lost so easily as uke and nage get competitive. Our goal in Ki training is to develop a strong, centered, calm feeling that is dependable under any circumstance.

Testing for this dependable feeling especially with new students is very gradual. It allows nage to come to know what being centered feels like and then to trust that feeling. Many people know how to be centered. It takes a lot of practice to trust that relaxed, centered feeling during technique. It really does work more effectively yet nage often takes years to be able to use it successfully in technique. Not because they can't feel it but they don't trust it. Nage goes back to muscling and that provides places to rest and resist.

All this gets lost when I compare myself to you. I can train and become as good as I can be.

[chillzATL]

never heard of ki testing being competitive. You should always be pushed to the point of failure, because that's the only way to get stronger and improve, but that's not really competitive.

[lbb]

I suppose people can turn anything into a competition. "I have more ki than youuuuu..."

[Mary Eastland]

never heard of ki testing being competitive. You should always be pushed to the point of failure, because that's the only way to get stronger and improve, but that's not really competitive.

You should gradually be pushed to the point just before failure.

[graham christian]

Actually it should be being pushed or rather tested to the point of success.

Peace.G.

[RonRagusa]

Actually it should be being pushed or rather tested to the point of success.

Peace.G.

Success is a continuum; failure is a discrete point at which success breaks down. Failure provides opportunity for growth. Think of the word failure in the same connotation that you would when speaking of testing strength of materials.

Ron

[graham christian]

Success is a continuum; failure is a discrete point at which success breaks down. Failure provides opportunity for growth. Think of the word failure in the same connotation that you would when speaking of testing strength of materials.

Ron

Interesting. I don't see success as something that can break down or indeed as a continuum unless it's a highly spiritual perspective ie: the state of continuous winning.

The key I would say is building and thus you build successes to build confidence.

Failure is only when a desired or intended result isn't achieved.

Therefor success breeds success and confidence and growth.

Failure doesn't lead to growth but does lead to recognition of more to learn and if that is taken responsibility for then leads to success and growth.

Looking at testing materials is actually looking for what they can handle ie: successfully.

That which you validate lives and indeed grows.

Learn and grow from success and learn to review and learn some more from failure.

Peace.G.

[jonreading]

I have a few moments while my videos process...

1. Competition in itself is a evolution... Something about Darwinism... The idea is to recognize when you are being successful and how you achieved success. Over time, your successes lead to a change in your action for the better. To address the stigma... Yes, you can become over-focused on "winning".
2. Success is a relative concept; I agree with Ron here. Some success in definition does not contribute to evolving superior behavior.

I think, in general, Mary's comments are aligned with aikido's teaching paradigm, which is to avoid over-focus on behavior which obscures or retards the learning process. However, I think we also need to eventually stress our training environment to include distractions and occlusions so we may practice applying our knowledge.... if we wish to claim our training is "practical".

In the beginning we learn to apply "ki" to a cooperative, willing, and non-resistant partner. As we progress we remove the shackles around our partners to create a more lively interaction; this also increases the risk of failure. I think it is fair to say that some aikido people are more concerned with success than failure and choose not to train to a point of failure. I think it is also fair to say that some aikido people are more concerned with improvement and choose to increase the stress of their training. I do not recall reading a book about any athlete or person of inspiration that said "I wouldn't be here today if I haven't won at everything I did." Michael Jordan once remarked that while we (his fans) remembered every game he won with a buzzer shot, in fact he lost more games with missed shots than he won.

[Anthony Loeppert]

2. Success is a relative concept; I agree with Ron here. Some success in definition does not contribute to evolving superior behavior.


Perhaps the most obvious example of this simply living. We're all successful at living until we are dead. There is a whole continuum in between.

[danj]

A few thoughts,

1/ A one seminar I went to in the early 2000's Kataoka Sensei of the Ki Society hombu, I think was so dismayed at the competitive Ki testing going on that he had someone test the person doing the Ki test. Where the testing was competitive the person doing the testing usually failed the Ki test. (Of course it presupposes that the 3rd person isn't being competitive, maybe you need a 4th person..but then its getting silly )

2/ At high levels you often hear the koan-esk statement 'Ki test...there is no Ki test' it only recently made a sort of sense, in that if you extend towards the person doing the Ki testing, such that you unbalance them below the threshold of perception...there really is no Ki test because they now have no power they can apply.

[chillzATL]

So what do you guys do for ki testing? What are your exercises?

[DH]

It is important to realize that cooperative ki testing within the martial arts has sever limitiations and is all but utter nonsense when it comes to practical use of aiki outside of the "martial arts."
Most teachers and students I have met (well...all really) cannot use ki under high stress; they simply fall apart. I have a very strong belief that under severe pressure the Japanese Shihan (including those who teach ki and internals) would simply be taken apart by those who themselves develop ki in high stress/high pressure environments. And yes I mean the famous ones.
Don't get me wrong. I love the "Martial arts" like everyone else. I just never....ever...confuse kata based training, with fighting. It continues to amaze me that the Japanese teachers want all of this recognition and we offer it to them, eat it with a spoon, and no one sees the forest for the trees.

There is another step, past the "martial arts" that is indeed a higher level of skill and power...attained by very few men. If you haven't fought freestyle with unusual power and markedly unusual skills, then you are just a "martial arts" guy and should be very self aware and circumspect about your limitations. There is quite a bit of B.S. out there in the established arts that we should NOT be supporting. Although it is unwanted, is shunned and shied away from, Challenging teachers and methods is wise.

Isn't it odd that we continue to discuss Ueshiba's skill?
That we applaud that fact that at hombu Tohei could not be thrown?
That Saotome was known for not being able to be thrown?
Shioda and Shirata?
and we......are told to take ukemi or we are dicks?
How did that happen?
When did that happen?
Why can't we walk into a dojo and for those of us who have the skills just be ourselves and when the Japanese big dog can't do anything to us... THAT....is applauded and approved of... as equally good as Tohei, Shirata, Shioda etc?
Time to wake up people!!

This mindset we have all but been brainwashed into believing limits us, limits the teachers, and it limits the arts. It is why typical martial artists get there asses handed to them by people who actually know what they are doing with ki and appropriate levels of ki testing.
Those who advocate this highly cooperative practice as a static dojo model...will forever fail and will forever...FOREVER....literally run away,,,, from those of us who know what we are doing with ki under stress.

I think most people in Budo just want to love their budo for whatever it is, and want nothing to do with real testing.
When it comes to budo nothing is truer than;
Do not look to authority for truth
Look to truth for authority
Dan

[Mary Eastland]

Who is talking about fighting?

[DH]

Who is talking about fighting?
People in the martial arts.
If you're not....you're not doing a martial art- it's something else.
Why not wear sweats and call it "Movement studies?"

Why testing at all?
Why budo clothing?
Why joint locks?
Why funny looking attacks?
Why discuss an Uke and a Nage in the first place?
Why worry if they are getting stronger?
Stronger....for.....what?

If it is budo...it has to work.
Work when?
Work against who?

Dan

[chillzATL]

It is important to realize that cooperative ki testing within the martial arts has sever limitiations and is all but utter nonsense when it comes to practical use of aiki outside of the "martial arts."
Most teachers and students I have met (well...all really) cannot use ki under high stress; they simply fall apart. I have a very strong belief that under severe pressure the Japanese Shihan (including those who teach ki and internals) would simply be taken apart by those who themselves develop ki in high stress/high pressure environments. And yes I mean the famous ones.
Don't get me wrong. I love the "Martial arts" like everyone else. I just never....ever...confuse kata based training, with fighting. It continues to amaze me that the Japanese teachers want all of this recognition and we offer it to them, eat it with a spoon, and no one sees the forest for the trees.

There is another step, past the "martial arts" that is indeed a higher level of skill and power...attained by very few men. If you haven't fought freestyle with unusual power and markedly unusual skills, then you are just a "martial arts" guy and should be very self aware and circumspect about your limitations. There is quite a bit of B.S. out there in the established arts that we should NOT be supporting. Although it is unwanted, is shunned and shied away from, Challenging teachers and methods is wise.

Isn't it odd that we continue to discuss Ueshiba's skill?
That we applaud that fact that at hombu Tohei could not be thrown?
That Saotome was known for not being able to be thrown?
Shioda and Shirata?
and we......are told to take ukemi or we are dicks?
How did that happen?
When did that happen?
Why can't we walk into a dojo and for those of us who have the skills just be ourselves and when the Japanese big dog can't do anything to us... THAT....is applauded and approved of... as equally good as Tohei, Shirata, Shioda etc?
Time to wake up people!!

This mindset we have all but been brainwashed into believing limits us, limits the teachers, and it limits the arts. It is why typical martial artists get there asses handed to them by people who actually know what they are doing with ki and appropriate levels of ki testing.
Those who advocate this highly cooperative practice as a static dojo model...will forever fail and will forever...FOREVER....literally run away,,,, from those of us who know what we are doing with ki under stress.

I think most people in Budo just want to love their budo for whatever it is, and want nothing to do with real testing.
When it comes to budo nothing is truer than;
Do not look to authority for truth
Look to truth for authority
Dan

So how do you feel going into aikido dojos and teaching what you teach, knowing that most will likely never test what they do to any "real" degree? Most will continue to stick with the cooperative model , though hopefully less so, and be happy that what they're doing is at least a little more authentic and potentially stronger than what they were doing before?

Was aikido ever about fighting ability?

[graham christian]

Well it is budo and it's not about fighting. It's Aikido. Co-operative? It co-operates with the universe. That is the Ki test.

Peace.G.

[DH]

So how do you feel going into aikido dojos and teaching what you teach, knowing that most will likely never test what they do to any "real" degree? Most will continue to stick with the cooperative model , though hopefully less so, and be happy that what they're doing is at least a little more authentic and potentially stronger than what they were doing before?

Was aikido ever about fighting ability?
The last first
Aikido was always about fighting ability...thats how you could control without fighting.
If Ueshiba could not fight....none of us would be here...including this site.
What he was trying to demonstrate was to be so good you could control without fighting.

As for what I teach?
It doesn't matter to me if people use it to fight or not, what matters is that
a. they learn the truth about Ueshiba's quotes and his power
b. The learn and feel and see aikido's serious lack of power
c. Learn how to fix themselves.
d. Learn how to fix the art

It doesn't matter if they decide to learn to actually fight and control with it. It is equally important that they learn to have unusual power to the point that those who want to fight or test them are met with a resounding WTF?? And the reputation of Aikido as one of the worlds finest arts starts to get repaired from all the damage over the years.
It's a long view that will take time.
Dan

[stan baker]

When talking fighting I donot think dan is talking about
biting and pulling hair.
Even though that would happen to most people
Under real stress.

Stan

[Chris Li]

The last first
Aikido was always about fighting ability...thats how you could control without fighting.
If Ueshiba could not fight....none of us would be here...including this site.
What he was trying to demonstrate was to be so good you could control without fighting.


Reminded me of this quote from Hiroshi Tada (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-08-12/aikido-shihan-hiroshi-tada-the-budo-body-part-1):

An Aikidoka should be able to consistently cut down an opponent with the first blow. This it the true Budo aspect of Aikido. It is precisely because we are confident that we will always able to do this. This confidence gives us two things, our strength and the ability to choose a less deadly outcome, both of which we should have as a prerequisite to our training.

Best,

Chris

[graham christian]

To be so good at fighting that you don't need to? Therein lies the false assumption. Therein lies the lesson to be learned that sadly hasn't by the looks of it.

Peace.G.

[DH]

Budo is funny, here is thread about testing and making people stronger....that can't answer its own premise.
Why Budo clothing?
Why weapons?
Why joint locks?
Why attacks?
Why Uke /Nage?
Why use the words make people stronger?

Here I'll quote others..

Everyone talks
you shugyo
years go by
people still talking
then you get up to demonstrate
then everyone knows the truth
Dan

[graham christian]

Reminded me of this quote from Hiroshi Tada (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-08-12/aikido-shihan-hiroshi-tada-the-budo-body-part-1):

Best,

Chris

Very true however give those statements to those with competitive and fighting minds and you get one interpretation but give them to the true martial artist and you get another.

Peace.G.

[Marc Abrams]

O'Sensei was able to foster peace because he was capable of destroying violence. People who lack the ability to destroy violence can only talk about peace in the best of times, without any ability to sustain the peace in bad times.

"Ki testing" in a purely cooperative fashion breeds nothing other than "ki ability" in good times. The ability to utilize Ki and Aiki in the worst of times should be at the heart of what we train for. Dan Harden happens to be an excellent and honest teacher in helping us rise to the highest levels at the worst times. Chris Li's quoting of Tada Sensei is yet another example of teachers who reflect the true depth and potential of our MARTIAL art. If people are not willing/able, etc to keep the martial in the art, should look to Noro Sensei as a man with deep integrity to change the name of what he was doing to be honest to all.

marc abrams

[graham christian]

Quoting other peoples ideas is easy and for some, it's all they've got. They usually will not last even 30 seconds against someone who actually knows what it really means.

Budo is funny, here is thread about testing and making people stronger....that can't answer its own premise.
Why Budo clothing?
Why weapons?
Why joint locks?
Why attacks?
Why Uke /Nage?
Why use the words make people stronger?

Here I'll quote others..

Everyone talks
you shugyo
years go by
people still talking
then you get up to demonstrate
then everyone knows the truth
Dan

Sorry Dan you talking about yourself as you quote others far more than most.You even finish with one.

Your questions are easily answered so I don't get your point.

Ki testing is good there's no more to say about it, it's straightforward and Aikido. All about harmony.

Peace.G.

[Chris Li]

Very true however give those statements to those with competitive and fighting minds and you get one interpretation but give them to the true martial artist and you get another.

Peace.G.

Well, I'm glad that we have "true martial artists" among us! :D

Best,

Chris

[DH]

Sorry Dan you talking about yourself as you quote others far more than most.You even finish with one.
No...I am not. Those quotes apply to many budo guys...the greats...all did that.

Your questions are easily answered so I don't get your point.
Answer them
Ki testing is good there's no more to say about it, it's straightforward and Aikido. All about harmony.
Peace.G.
Define it. I have seen the result of decades of "ki testing" that were deplorable...some even laughable. We have made a mockery of some very good models.
It is thee reason for the ki wars here and on E-budo.
Those qouting ki....couldn't do anything demonstrably different or valuable. They were full of pipe dreams made up out of cooperatve practice.

Why... are there no Ki wars today with recent people showing ki?
You get your ass handed to you in ways that feel different and is demonstrably effective. If we are really discussing ki testing making you stronger...then......
There is nothing to debate....in person!

We are talking about a result aren't we?
I didn't start a thread about ki testing making people stronger
Okay?
How much?

It's like calling yourself a true martial artist....and then objecting to being tested by a fighter.
Hence the reason people avoid being really tested in person!!!!!!!
Dan

[graham christian]

Well, I'm glad that we have "true martial artists" among us! :D

Best,

Chris

So am I;) There always will be and there always has been.

Peace.G.

[chillzATL]

Reminded me of this quote from Hiroshi Tada (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-08-12/aikido-shihan-hiroshi-tada-the-budo-body-part-1):

Best,

Chris

Do you agree with Tada's interpretation of the "true budo" aspect of Aikido. Do you think that's what Ueshiba meant?

[Mary Eastland]

Perhaps we should just call this site DanWeb.

[Chris Li]

Do you agree with Tada's interpretation of the "true budo" aspect of Aikido. Do you think that's what Ueshiba meant?

I don't have Tada's original Japanese, but my feeling is that he's using it in the sense of "this is really budo" rather than "real budo" if you see what I mean...

Best,

Chris

[graham christian]

No...I am not. Those quotes apply to many budo guys...the greats...all did that.

Answer them

Define it. I have seen the result of decades of "ki testing" that were deplorable...laughable.
It is thee reason for the ki wars here and on E-budo.
Those qouting ki....couldn't do anything demonstrably different or valuable. they were full of pipe dreams made out of cooperatve practice.

Why... are there no Ki wars today with recent people showing ki?
You get your ass handed to you in ways that feel different and is demonstrably effective.There is nothing to debate....in person!
Dan

Dan I'm afraid you are just being negative. The Ki wars was just more of the same old negative trying to prove something.

I have seen the result of internals which were deplorable so what? Using such statements in the way they are used here on the web is deplorable and worthless. I have met many who practiced Ki for years who were 'deplorable' so what? It's not something to use to prove some point. You get it in all walks of life and in fact the deplorable managers and politicians and bankers etc. even get promoted so what's new?

To promote self by denegrating others is deplorable.

What you describe as people using Ki nowadays in your own colourful way is something which has been normal in my world for years so nothing new there.

If you are 'converting' formerly negative people to a more positive understanding then good for you.

He who understands martial arts knows it has many levels and is beneficial at all those levels.

He who knows Ki testing knows it is beneficial at all levels too.

Peace.G.

[DH]

Perhaps we should just call this site DanWeb.
That's a defensive reaction Mary without validity.
I discussed Ueshiba, Shirata, Tohei, Shioda, and Saotome and ki which is ages old. You brought up a good point but shy away from defining it or defending it.
Tohei defended it. Did he balk at those who challenged his ideas?
Ueshiba stepped up.So did Shioda, Shirata etc.
These greats...were greats, not through theory. Not through pontificating.... but in demonstrating.

The dig is really not fair, kiddo. Even my signature line is an Aikido great who demonstrated this stuff!!
Dan

[graham christian]

"It's like calling yourself a true martial artist....and then objecting to being tested by a fighter.
Hence the reason people avoid being really tested in person!!!!!!! " (QUOTE)

What does that mean?

Peace.G.

[DH]

Dan I'm afraid you are just being negative. The Ki wars was just more of the same old negative trying to prove something.

I have seen the result of internals which were deplorable so what? Using such statements in the way they are used here on the web is deplorable and worthless. I have met many who practiced Ki for years who were 'deplorable' so what? It's not something to use to prove some point. You get it in all walks of life and in fact the deplorable managers and politicians and bankers etc. even get promoted so what's new?

To promote self by denegrating others is deplorable.

What you describe as people using Ki nowadays in your own colourful way is something which has been normal in my world for years so nothing new there.

If you are 'converting' formerly negative people to a more positive understanding then good for you.

He who understands martial arts knows it has many levels and is beneficial at all those levels.

He who knows Ki testing knows it is beneficial at all levels too.

Peace.G.
Not true
Only in Budo can you suck at teaching and get away with it. If you claim to teach swimming...and your students drown in a pool...you suck at teaching.
Internals and aiki are a great model. A singularly great model. Demmonstrably great model.
We need to step up and admit...we suck...so we can fix it, and not claim the model is flawed.

Mary brought up testing. Fine by me.
We can be tested for martial ability
We can be tested for ki/aiki under pressure
The real problem is that people.... can.....be tested. and THAT is what is pissing people off. They fail over and over, time and time again and they are mad to be thirty years in and it is obvious.
As one ICMA grandmaster said:
"You cannot pretent dantian, you will be found out!"

The "real true martial artist" you mentioned? They don't mind failing, they see it as an opportuniy for growth!

[graham christian]

Not true
Only in Budo can you suck at teaching and get away with it. If you claim to teach swimming...and your students drown in a pool...you suck at teaching.
Internals and aiki are a great model. A singularly great model. Demmonstrably great model.
We need to step up and admit...we suck...so we can fix it, and not claim the model is flawed.

Mary brought up testing. Fine by me. The real problem is that people.... can.....be tested. and THAT is what is pissing people off. They fail over and over, time and time again and they are mad to be thirty years in and it is obvious.
As one ICMA grandmaster said:
"You cannot pretent dantian, you will be found out!"

The "real true martial artist" you mentioned? They don't mind failing, they see it as an opportuniy for growthQ

Sorry it is true. Plenty of not so good swimming coaches, football managers etc. etc. Budo is not unique.

We need to step up and admit....different ways...so we can stop thinking ours is the only way.

Mary brought up testing, Ki testing, and she no doubt did so because she knows how beneficial it is.

She also knows no doubt the benefits and wins over and over again that those she has taught have got through it.

Me, Mary, thousands of others already know and don't mind failing so once again you lose me.

Negative views create a negative scene.

Peace.G.

[chillzATL]

I don't have Tada's original Japanese, but my feeling is that he's using it in the sense of "this is really budo" rather than "real budo" if you see what I mean...

Best,

Chris

I think so... so much nuance to be deciphered. How do you not go crazy?

[DH]

Sorry it is true. Plenty of not so good swimming coaches, football managers etc. etc. Budo is not unique.
Negative views create a negative scene.
Peace.G.
Not everyone gets an "A" Graham.
Negative reviews breed excellence.
Failure is the mother of success.
Mediocrity is.....?

Again testing for what?
Stronger for what?
Martial....? How?

These questions were answered in the form of challenges by men who created the arts we follow.

No Takeda who got challenged
No Ueshiba
No Ueshiba?
No Tohei
No Tohei?
You...wouldn't be here.
They all stepped up in real pressured fight testing.
We...are...many times just cowards who run from the very testing we brag on them for.
Dan

[graham christian]

Not everyone gets an "A" Graham.
Negative reviews breed excellence.
Failure is the mother of success.
Mediocrity is.....?

Again testing for what?
Stronger for what?
Martial....? How?

These questions were answered in the form of challenges by men who created the arts we follow.
We...are...many times just cowards who run from the very testing we brag on them for.
No Takeda who got challenged
No Ueshiba
No Ueshiba?
No Tohei
No Tohei?
You...wouldn't be here.
They all stepped up in real pressured fight testing.
Dan

Don't go there Dan cos every tryer in my book gets an 'A'.

Negative review in my book is deplorable, as deplorable as rose tinted glasses.

Mediocraty is?

Questions answered in the form of challenges? Another false view as far as I am concerned.

Ueshiba stated how that was not true budo. Tohei? I don't think you know enough about Tohei to be honest. I don't remember any of those entering competitions. In fact quite the reverse.

If there hadn't been a Ueshiba or Tohei I would be here still so that kind of comment is silly. I'd probably be doing I/P;)

Ueshiba was martial and when someone can act like him to any degree they can use him as an example. He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.

A 'fighters' view of pressure testing is warped and not Aikido as far as I am concerned. We all come across situations in life and real pressure situations where we find the truth of how it benefits us.

To use in competition and fighting come under another martial art actually, in fact most other internal martial arts, thus not Aikido. So it's all well and good people can learn about Ki and internal but thinking it's to do with fighting shows how they are not yet aware of the difference.

Peace.G.

[Chris Li]

I think so... so much nuance to be deciphered. How do you not go crazy?

Too late - already happened long ago... :eek:

Best,

Chris

[chillzATL]

The last first
Aikido was always about fighting ability...thats how you could control without fighting.
If Ueshiba could not fight....none of us would be here...including this site.
What he was trying to demonstrate was to be so good you could control without fighting.

I can't disagree with the above, but why have an art that's about fighting ability yet have nothing whatsoever in the art to test that ability? Even going back to pre-war or even earlier Daito-ryu, it wasn't there either, by all accounts. It makes no sense.

[Mary Eastland]

Maruyama, Sensei taught that testing was noncompetitive. He was a student of Tohei and O'Sensei. He was Ron's teacher. That is the tradition we follow.

I guess it was a dig, Dan. Every thread turns into how great thou art. I sure you are. Yet I would like to be able to talk about Ki without talking about what you do. Our paths don't intersect. That is okay. I would still give you an A+ :)

[Chris Li]

Ueshiba was martial and when someone can act like him to any degree they can use him as an example. He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.

Actually, I can think of a number of disparaging remarks - but maybe he wasn't a "true martial artist".

Best,

Chris

[DH]

Maruyama, Sensei taught that testing was noncompetitive. He was a student of Tohei and O'Sensei. He was Ron's teacher. That is the tradition we follow.

I guess it was a dig, Dan. Every thread turns into how great thou art. I sure you are. Yet I would like to be able to talk about Ki without talking about what you do. Our paths don't intersect. That is okay. I would still give you an A+ :)
In mutual frustration I could say I would love to bring up ki and not have it turn into another of your how great you aren't....and that's okay we're all equal discussions. I keep hoping for better and improved people. :cool:

I don't know why you want to talk about me anyway, Mary. I was talking about a host of people.
I can talk all day about the great men who founded these arts, the great men who followed them, and the great people teaching today and make the same points without needing to bring you into the conversation even once.

Case in point your thread wanted to talk about making people stronger. Okay.
Running around in circles chasing someone's hand while people twirl with their own arms dangling as if they are scared to death to use them lest they "muscle up" is more akin to what I see from the people who talk about ki.
In a discussion of ki (which was known to be powerful) where does the above make sense?
Power how?
How much?
Against what?
When does the pressure increase?
Why?
Against who?
Against what?
No need to talk about you or me is there?

Dan

[DH]

Ueshiba was martial and when someone can act like him to any degree they can use him as an example. He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.
Peace.G.
It would be nice if you would stop inventing history.

[gregstec]

Maruyama, Sensei taught that testing was noncompetitive. He was a student of Tohei and O'Sensei. He was Ron's teacher. That is the tradition we follow.

I guess it was a dig, Dan. Every thread turns into how great thou art. I sure you are. Yet I would like to be able to talk about Ki without talking about what you do. Our paths don't intersect. That is okay. I would still give you an A+ :)

Hi Mary, just a minor request - when you reference Maruyama sensei, could you please also state that it is Shuji Maruyama of the Kokikai you are talking about and not Koretoshi Maruyama, who was Tohei's first chief instructor of the Ki Society ( one of my first Aikido teachers) granted, both were students of Ueshiba and Tohei, but two very different people that have taken different paths since their severed connection to Tohei.

Thank you

Greg

[gregstec]

Don't go there Dan cos every tryer in my book gets an 'A'.

Negative review in my book is deplorable, as deplorable as rose tinted glasses.

Mediocraty is?

Questions answered in the form of challenges? Another false view as far as I am concerned.

Ueshiba stated how that was not true budo. Tohei? I don't think you know enough about Tohei to be honest. I don't remember any of those entering competitions. In fact quite the reverse.

If there hadn't been a Ueshiba or Tohei I would be here still so that kind of comment is silly. I'd probably be doing I/P;)

Ueshiba was martial and when someone can act like him to any degree they can use him as an example. He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.

A 'fighters' view of pressure testing is warped and not Aikido as far as I am concerned. We all come across situations in life and real pressure situations where we find the truth of how it benefits us.

To use in competition and fighting come under another martial art actually, in fact most other internal martial arts, thus not Aikido. So it's all well and good people can learn about Ki and internal but thinking it's to do with fighting shows how they are not yet aware of the difference.

Peace.G.

Graham, buddy, that post just has so much disillusion and twisted facets that I just would not know where to start to address it - however, I applaud you for being consistent in your disillusions :D

Greg

[Mary Eastland]

In mutual frustration I could say I would love to bring up ki and not have it turn into another of your how great you aren't....and that's okay we're all equal discussions. I keep hoping for better and improved people. :cool:

I don't know why you want to talk about me anyway, Mary. I was talking about a host of people.
I can talk all day about the great men who founded these arts, the great men who followed them, and the great people teaching today and make the same points without needing to bring you into the conversation even once.

Case in point your thread wanted to talk about making people stronger. Okay.
Running around in circles chasing someone's hand while people twirl with their own arms dangling as if they are scared to death to use them lest they "muscle up" is more akin to what I see from the people who talk about ki.
In a discussion of ki (which was known to be powerful) where does the above make sense?
Power how?
How much?
Against what?
When does the pressure increase?
Why?
Against who?
Against what?
No need to talk about you or me is there?

Dan
Not sure who does that...we don't.

[graham christian]

Graham, buddy, that post just has so much disillusion and twisted facets that I just would not know where to start to address it - however, I applaud you for being consistent in your disillusions :D

Greg

I applaud you too mate for your consistency in thinking so.;)

Peace.G.

[graham christian]

It would be nice if you would stop inventing history.

Not invented. Seems to me some are inventing the present.

Peace.G.

[Chris Li]

Ueshiba was martial and when someone can act like him to any degree they can use him as an example. He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.

Actually, I can think of a number of disparaging remarks - but maybe he wasn't a "true martial artist".

Best,

Chris

For example:

"Ueshiba Sensei spoke ill of me until the day he died."

- Koichi Tohei

There's more, of course, like the reasons why Sagawa decided turn down an invitation to teach at Aikikai Hombu Dojo that are public - and a lot more that are private.

Best,

Chris

[DH]

State a history that is untrue
Support it with rhetoric
Misstate dates and facts
Invent thing's out of whole cloth
Mistranslate known sayings
Come back later as if it never happened and use the correct terminology of those who corrected you.......
With no acknowledgment of preceding events.
Its called dialogue on the internet.
Dan

[JW]

Hi all, good to see aikiweb is keeping lively! Does anyone know what the "Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido Competition" was/is?

It was created by Tohei (see below). I got the impression that it was NOT the "taigi" competition (where techniques are shown), but rather more of a "competitive ki testing" event. Is that true? At any rate, as you can see from the quote, Tohei did indeed think that competition could motivate improvement. Why would someone who knows the downside of competitions (as shown in the quote) want to create such an event? My bet is he recognized that one's development would always be limited if training was entirely restricted to cooperative training.

In other words, to help make his students stronger and improve their mind-body coordination, Tohei thought it would be good to do things involving competition.


Aikido prohibits matches because matches are concerned with the issue of winning or losing. There would be no problem if matches were not about victory and defeat, but rather about how much we can unify the mind that we have been given by heaven and earth to discover our fullest potential as human beings. With this in mind I established what we call the Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido Competition, an event not for displays of circus-like techniques or other curiosities, but rather an opportunity to test this mind-body unification that anyone has the potential to attain. This event is not limited to Ki Society members; anyone can participate. But those unable to unify their mind and body won’t get very far in the competition
source:
http://members.aikidojournal.com/public/interview-with-koichi-tohei-2/

[Carsten Möllering]

Perhaps we should just call this site DanWeb.
Dear Mary, even if I don't know you and your aikidô in person I appreciate very much your thoughts, insights, ideas about aikidô! When reading your statements I understand that you have gone a long way, that you have lived aikidô for a long time and with great intensity. You speaking seriously and humble makes me listening. Although what you think aikidô to be and how you think aikidô to work often sounds completely strange in my ears.

The above statement makes me just sad.

I sometimes tried to point out, that in my aikidô context the views of Dan are quite more "normal" than yours are. And I sometimes described here how happy I was to finally find a forum where people discuss on such a high level what I / we try to learn.
Having people like Chris who gives translations of Ueshibas words which reflect more his (Ueshibas) thinking than those of the translators before who did not understand what they tried to translate. Or people like Dan who are able to make this words alive, workable.
So aikiweb became an important place to me, long before I met Dan in person. Simply because what was discussed here matched perfectly the practice of aikidô that is common in my surrounding. But on a level of quality that is seldom found.

So I would beg you to be aware that this is not about a single person with some entourage conquering a website and force through his personal view. But about someone who's work is part of the work and practice of a very large part of the aikidô community. In your eyes it may be a suspect approach to aikidô. But in the eyes of a whole lot of practioners it is what they are looking and aiming for in their practice.

So as long as this is called "AikiWeb", it should be a good place for people who work on aiki to share their knowledge.

[Mary Eastland]

Not true
Only in Bud can you suck at teaching and get away with it. If you claim to teach swimming...and your students drown in a pool...you suck at teaching.
Internals and Aili are a great model. A singularly great model. Demonstrably great model.
We need to step up and admit...we suck...so we can fix it, and not claim the model is flawed.

Mary brought up testing. Fine by me.
We can be tested for martial ability
We can be tested for Ki/aiki under pressure
The real problem is that people.... can.....be tested. and THAT is what is pissing people off. They fail over and over, time and time again and they are mad to be thirty years in and it is obvious.
As one ICMA grandmaster said:
"You cannot pretent dantian, you will be found out!"

The "real true martial artist" you mentioned? They don't mind failing, they see it as an opportuniy for growth!

I think you are deliberately misunderstanding this. You know we have different criteria and motives for testing. You are using this as platform to market yourself. Which is fine by me. It seems like a really good way to do seminars. (no sarcasm intended)

I don't know how you appeal to so many Aikido people when you disparage their art...maybe you are just speaking what they really fear in their own minds.

Carston...don't be sad...it is all good. By the way, do you wear a Hakama?

[Mary Eastland]

Hi Mary, just a minor request - when you reference Maruyama sensei, could you please also state that it is Shuji Maruyama of the Kokikai you are talking about and not Koretoshi Maruyama, who was Tohei's first chief instructor of the Ki Society ( one of my first Aikido teachers) granted, both were students of Ueshiba and Tohei, but two very different people that have taken different paths since their severed connection to Tohei.

Thank you

Greg

Hi greg: Just a minor answer, NO. If people really care in the least they can look it up.

[Chris Li]

I think you are deliberately misunderstanding this. You know we have different criteria and motives for testing. You are using this as platform to market yourself. Which is fine by me. It seems like a really good way to do seminars. (no sarcasm intended)

I don't know how you appeal to so many Aikido people when you disparage their art...maybe you are just speaking what they really fear in their own minds.

Carston...don't be sad...it is all good. By the way, do you wear a Hakama?

Does it make any difference what somebody's wearing?

Anyway, Dan doesn't disparage the art - he does disparage many of the assertions made by folks practicing that art. So do I - and most Aikido instructors that I know.

He's more upfront about it than most, though...

If you meet him in person he'll show you exactly what he's talking about, technically, very clearly - and very convincingly. If you can show him something as good or better - he'll love it.

I'm not sure why the marketing stuff keeps coming up. Teaching isn't his day job and he doesn't make any real money at it - if he's lucky he breaks even or little bit better just to come out and play with us every four months.

We have a good time though.

Best,

Chris

[chillzATL]

Case in point your thread wanted to talk about making people stronger. Okay.
Running around in circles chasing someone's hand while people twirl with their own arms dangling as if they are scared to death to use them lest they "muscle up" is more akin to what I see from the people who talk about ki.
In a discussion of ki (which was known to be powerful) where does the above make sense?
Power how?
How much?
Against what?
When does the pressure increase?
Why?
Against who?
Against what?
No need to talk about you or me is there?

Dan

FWIW, when I asked the question of what people do as ki testing, I meant it as an all inclusive title for any internal paired exercise, not just the ki society things. For simplicity sake, it's all ki testing, isn't it? It just makes it easier to discuss on an aikido forum, not that it really matters...

If you wanted people to answer the above questions or if you had something constructive to say on the importance of pressure testing in "ki testing", why didn't you make that post? While I feel that's kind of what you were shooting for, that's really not the post you made. When you go into these diatribes about fighting, you almost always get threads that turn to dross.

[DH]

Thank you Carsten
I don't think anyyone who has stood in a room with me has heard me claim this is my work. Instead I make a very strong argument for a pedogogy from India to China to Japan. It is the quality and consistency of this work, that has produced a never ending stream of "giants" who got it. And I don't consider myself..... a giant.

Sadly, the other "constent" are those in the martial arts who are convinced they get it and don't. They are just going through the motions doing waza thingies and kidding themselves that they are "soft." It can't be helped. The truth has never made a cross section of people either comfortable or happy.In the martial arts it is worse as the vast majority of people in the martial arts really have no idea about the higher level work.
Dan

[DH]

FWIW, when I asked the question of what people do as ki testing, I meant it as an all inclusive title for any internal paired exercise, not just the ki society things. For simplicity sake, it's all ki testing, isn't it? It just makes it easier to discuss on an aikido forum, not that it really matters...

If you wanted people to answer the above questions or if you had something constructive to say on the importance of pressure testing in "ki testing", why didn't you make that post? While I feel that's kind of what you were shooting for, that's really not the post you made. When you go into these diatribes about fighting, you almost always get threads that turn to dross.
Jason
That was directed at Mary and Graham. Those questions are aimed at their assertions. It's very simple really. Mary started a thread about getting strong with an uke/nage model.
Where
When
How
with whom
At what levels
No one need talk about fighting. In fact I said IT DID NOT NEED TO BE FIGHTING.
No one need talk about me.
You guys.....make it about fighting and about me.

Mary, continues to violate the rules and talk about the people behind the posts. Whatever....
I asked simply questions on a generic theme about ki.
Dan

[DH]

So here I am reading self admitted digs at me, and now this...that I am disingenuous and only marketing myself. Er...thanks!

Why can't we talk about the subject and we share views? Simple.

Individualizing this work-while it makes no sense whatsoever-allows people to shoot and disparage the messenger. Much like Mary does continuously.

Having to admit it is a body of work spanning cultures and eras leaves Budo teachers (in this case Aikido teachers) to answer very...very..damning questions.
Why the hell don't you know about this
Why can't you do it?
Why were you incapable of correctly translating phrases that were well known and established.

So we have professors who are inept at their own field of study. Is this news? It's a twice told tale.

Dan

[Keith Larman]

All I have to say is that last week a newer student came to one of my classes. Big guy, very strong, very stable. Not a lot of experience and of skeptical nature. He grabbed on during one of my ki tests I was working on for the class and I could feel myself tighten up and react (poorly). I smiled, thanked him, corrected myself, and got on with it. That sort of honesty in attack is hard to find. And a god-send for me. Students quickly fall in to the trap of "taking ukemi" even with ki tests. It becomes part of the collusion, part of the game, and even when you try hard to avoid it, well, it can still creep back in. I am thankful as hell that our late founder of the style I study felt the Tohei Ki tests were indispensable and something to be done regularly. And that we were trained to push each other right up to failure and sometimes even past it. How else do you find the limits? How else do you find what you can improve? And my teachers always expected us to work on them, to grow them, to try new things, to explore. But the starting point was always the same. Shoshin ni kaeru. Return to the basics.

FWIW I think that what guys like Dan are teaching *are* the basics. The very foundation. The basics of the most basic. That doesn't make it easy. That doesn't make it simple to explain. But it is profound when faced with it directly. And undeniably powerful. And soft. And everything in between.

It doesn't mean I can do it well. Too much work left to do still. But... What a wonderful way of expanding the horizon in front of you.

Yeah, I love the ki tests. And while I get what the OP is saying, I'm not sure competitive is the right word anyway. Obviously we're trying to learn, not just destroy our students. Not "show up" the students or "show off" for the students. But in another way I do think of competition. With myself. Getting better. Sometimes it's also about pushing the student. Or maybe giving the student a reality check. So sometimes you do shut them down. Sometimes you push them past failure. It's not always going to be warm fuzzies if you are really trying to help people improve. For some, sure, they're motivated enough internally to get where they need to go. Others, not so much.

Shrug. Tis the reason I didn't post in this thread until now. It's a warm sentiment and a lovely thought, but not so much practical or workable for many. No, of course it's not about competition in some sense of the word. But it often needs a lot more "umph" and slapping around than it currently tends to receive, especially if we're going to continue to claim that this is a martial art with some degree of application.

So I shrug again. Carry on and have a lovely day...

[chillzATL]

Jason
That was directed at Mary and Graham. Those questions are aimed at their assertions. It's very simple really. Mary started a thread about getting strong with an uke/nage model.
Where
When
How
with whom
At what levels
No one need talk about fighting. In fact I said IT DID NOT NEED TO BE FIGHTING.
No one need talk about me.
You guys.....make it about fighting and about me.

Mary, continues to violate the rules and talk about the people behind the posts. Whatever....
I asked simply questions on a generic theme about ki.
Dan

Dan,

First off, I didn't make it about anyone, so don't lump me in there.

Second, you make it about you when you make posts vaguely reference the need for non-cooperative testing, but don't offer any followup on that idea other than talking about how Shihans fall apart against it, how everyone runs from it and nobody wants to do "REAL" testing. Considering your background, I think people draw a fairly clear picture about what you mean by "REAL" testing, whether you intended that or not. If it weren't about fighting, why take it in a direction that at the very least, strongly alludes to that?

You could have talked about the sort of progression you try to get people to follow when you show them paired exercises, aka ki testing. You don't have to talk about the exercises themselves, just the progression and use of resistance and pressure and honesty (taking ownership) that goes into that "ki testing" and such. I'm pretty sure we'd have a much different thread at this point. A spoonful of sugar... you know the saying.. :)

[graham christian]

For example:

There's more, of course, like the reasons why Sagawa decided turn down an invitation to teach at Aikikai Hombu Dojo that are public - and a lot more that are private.

Best,

Chris

Nice twist, disparaging remarks?

Once again missing the point. How he behaved. It's a martial thing. He didn't go around continuously nattering about others. Unlike some modern folk.

Being so far advanced and disciplined he had more opportunity to yet rarely did.

Thus those who commonly do shows me merely lack of advancement.

Peace.G.

[Keith Larman]

Being so far advanced and disciplined he had more opportunity to yet rarely did.

Good point. However...



Thus those who commonly do shows me merely lack of advancement.

Peace.G.

Passive aggressive comment added as a contrast? How can you say things like that so closely together without your head exploding? The feedback and dissonance must be horrendous... :eek:

Must be a translation error. You know, British English to American English...

Must get back to my cave and enjoy the shadow puppet show. Much happier there. Carry on.

[akiy]

Watch your tone in your discussion, folks.

-- Jun

[Keith Larman]

Watch your tone in your discussion, folks.

-- Jun

Hai, Akiyama-sama! :)

Seriously, do we have a deep-bow smilie? I thought I saw one here once... Or am I just missing it.

[stan baker]

Hi Mary
i think you are mistaken regarding ki testing
Your motives are not that much different from
Dan. Even though i have trained with you only once
Your path and dan share more then you realize

Stan

[Chris Li]

Nice twist, disparaging remarks?

Once again missing the point. How he behaved. It's a martial thing. He didn't go around continuously nattering about others. Unlike some modern folk.

Being so far advanced and disciplined he had more opportunity to yet rarely did.

Thus those who commonly do shows me merely lack of advancement.

Peace.G.

Did you miss the part where Koichi Tohei said that Ueshiba was continuously nattering ill about him? Tohei wrote it himself and published it in Japanese, feel free to confirm it for yourself.

Tohei himself, of course, has a fairly public record of nattering about other people in public.

Best,

Chris

[graham christian]

Not everyone gets an "A" Graham.
Negative reviews breed excellence.
Failure is the mother of success.
Mediocrity is.....?

Again testing for what?
Stronger for what?
Martial....? How?

These questions were answered in the form of challenges by men who created the arts we follow.

No Takeda who got challenged
No Ueshiba
No Ueshiba?
No Tohei
No Tohei?
You...wouldn't be here.
They all stepped up in real pressured fight testing.
We...are...many times just cowards who run from the very testing we brag on them for.
Dan

Let's answer your questions for you.

Testing for what? Testing for ability to harmonize with the universe.

Stronger for what? Stronger in the sense of ability to face and handle life and people by remaining in harmonyy with the universe.

Martial? How? ...By learning how to remain in such a condition in the face of ignorant fighting and beyond that, due to being in continuous harmony to thus bring an end to violence and disharmony which means actually making the other better.

Peace.G.

[graham christian]

Did you miss the part where Koichi Tohei said that Ueshiba was continuously nattering ill about him? Tohei wrote it himself and published it in Japanese, feel free to confirm it for yourself.

Tohei himself, of course, has a fairly public record of nattering about other people in public.

Best,

Chris

No, he didn't say that. That's your twist on it.

Nattering is going around criticising and finding fault and blaming etc. without being asked to. Disparaging remarks made through being asked, usually continually asked, are not the same thing. Reporters and trouble makers love doing this. They know there is some kind of rift and so prod to get a reaction. Childish.

Tohei promoted his way, Osensei promoted his way. Both 99% of the time. 1% they may be found to protest something. Nothing like nattering.

As I said, putting others down in order to promote self or own way was the point made. Deplorable.

Peace.G.

[chillzATL]

No, he didn't say that. That's your twist on it.

Peace.G.

What was O-Sensei's attitude when you started basing your teaching around the principles of ki?

He was jealous and told people not to listen to me. He would say, "Aikido is mine, not Tohei's. Don't listen to what Tohei says." He would peer into the dojo and say things like that, especially when I was teaching a group of women. In that respect he was quite child-like in his directness and lack of sophistication—very spontaneous and innocent.

[Chris Li]

No, he didn't say that. That's your twist on it.

Nattering is going around criticising and finding fault and blaming etc. without being asked to. Disparaging remarks made through being asked, usually continually asked, are not the same thing. Reporters and trouble makers love doing this. They know there is some kind of rift and so prod to get a reaction. Childish.

Tohei promoted his way, Osensei promoted his way. Both 99% of the time. 1% they may be found to protest something. Nothing like nattering.

As I said, putting others down in order to promote self or own way was the point made. Deplorable.

Peace.G.

As Jason noted in his quote from Tohei - the record of nattering is public, and quite clear.

Best,

Chris

[graham christian]

What was O-Sensei's attitude when you started basing your teaching around the principles of ki?

He was jealous and told people not to listen to me. He would say, "Aikido is mine, not Tohei's. Don't listen to what Tohei says." He would peer into the dojo and say things like that, especially when I was teaching a group of women. In that respect he was quite child-like in his directness and lack of sophistication—very spontaneous and innocent.

Interesting. 'Very spontaneous and innocent'

So we have a comment made by Tohei in answer to a question. A question to a man who was the subject of a rift.

Now I doubt jealousy was the reason. Probably another lesson for Tohei, looks to me like one he never quite recognized. ie: Not to show off and try to impress the women. That's more in charachter and fits how O'Sensei was.

Not nattering as it was directly to him, about him, teacher to student. As with most people O'Sensei could see through them which some found a bit un nerving.

Peace.G.

[Chris Li]

Interesting. 'Very spontaneous and innocent'

So we have a comment made by Tohei in answer to a question. A question to a man who was the subject of a rift.

Now I doubt jealousy was the reason. Probably another lesson for Tohei, looks to me like one he never quite recognized. ie: Not to show off and try to impress the women. That's more in charachter and fits how O'Sensei was.

Not nattering as it was directly to him, about him, teacher to student. As with most people O'Sensei could see through them which some found a bit un nerving.

Peace.G.

He was jealous and told people not to listen to me. He would say, "Aikido is mine, not Tohei's. Don't listen to what Tohei says." He would peer into the dojo and say things like that, especially when I was teaching a group of women. In that respect he was quite child-like in his directness and lack of sophistication-very spontaneous and innocent.

Sounds to me like Tohei said that Ueshiba was talking to other people.

Best,

Chris

[graham christian]

Sounds to me like Tohei said that Ueshiba was talking to other people.

Best,

Chris

As I said, a lesson. Spontaneous and innocent. The sword of Aikido.

Peace.G.

[Mary Eastland]

Hi Keith:

I like what you said about testing. Ki testing is a process. Some people can be tested quite strongly and are fine, others must be given more leeway.

Now during technique I believe that uke should only fall if their balance is taken. Sometimes that causes problems when I think a student should be somewhere they are not. I do fall sometimes when I am not thrown because I am big and seem to be intimidating to some students. I am reminded by my instructor that it is not up to me to determine where a student is in their process.

[Basia Halliop]

Going back to the earlier discussion of 'testing to the point of failure', I guess I don't understand the value or purpose of never having something 'fail'? How can you know where the point you 'fail' even is unless you play around the edges and occasionally go there so you can clearly see the difference between what action of yours leads to success vs what action leads to failure?

I get the motive behind practicing success much more often than failure, because practice makes permanent and you want to build the habit and muscle memory of doing it right. So, yeah, you want loads and loads of successful practice if you can.

But without ever seeing what _doesn't_ work, how can you really understand what does? They exist in contrast to each other... to me it seems too much like trying to read print but the print and the page are the same colour -- how do you know the shape of the print and what information it contains if you have nothing to contrast it with?

To give the word 'failure' so much emotional baggage seems to me sad and potentially damaging... it's just information and need not have any 'bad' feeling attached to it unless you choose to put it there. If you shut yourself off from information then IMO that's no good...

[graham christian]

Going back to the earlier discussion of 'testing to the point of failure', I guess I don't understand the value or purpose of never having something 'fail'? How can you know where the point you 'fail' even is unless you play around the edges and occasionally go there so you can clearly see the difference between what action of yours leads to success vs what action leads to failure?

I get the motive behind practicing success much more often than failure, because practice makes permanent and you want to build the habit and muscle memory of doing it right. So, yeah, you want loads and loads of successful practice if you can.

But without ever seeing what _doesn't_ work, how can you really understand what does? They exist in contrast to each other... to me it seems too much like trying to read print but the print and the page are the same colour -- how do you know the shape of the print and what information it contains if you have nothing to contrast it with?

To give the word 'failure' so much emotional baggage seems to me sad and potentially damaging... it's just information and need not have any 'bad' feeling attached to it unless you choose to put it there. If you shut yourself off from information then IMO that's no good...

Test to the point of success. Validate success. This causes growth. That doesn't equal never having someone fail. It's not even in the same ball park.

It's a matter of understanding what success is.

Test to limits, yes. Improve on those limits, yes. Continue succeeding yes. Build.

During practice of anything a person fails many times, that's why it's called practice.

You don't need to test to it then do you? It's already built in and acknowledged by the understanding of what practice is.

That's why I think 'testing to the point of failure' is a nonsense. Negativity wants you to fail. Why promote it?

There are those who encourage others and flow from the view of "you can" then there are those who are out to prove "you can't" and enjoy failure.

I've met many who were tested to failure and gave up. Bad teaching.

Peace.G.

[DH]

Going back to the earlier discussion of 'testing to the point of failure', I guess I don't understand the value or purpose of never having something 'fail'? How can you know where the point you 'fail' even is unless you play around the edges and occasionally go there so you can clearly see the difference between what action of yours leads to success vs what action leads to failure?

I get the motive behind practicing success much more often than failure, because practice makes permanent and you want to build the habit and muscle memory of doing it right. So, yeah, you want loads and loads of successful practice if you can.

But without ever seeing what _doesn't_ work, how can you really understand what does? They exist in contrast to each other... to me it seems too much like trying to read print but the print and the page are the same colour -- how do you know the shape of the print and what information it contains if you have nothing to contrast it with?

To give the word 'failure' so much emotional baggage seems to me sad and potentially damaging... it's just information and need not have any 'bad' feeling attached to it unless you choose to put it there. If you shut yourself off from information then IMO that's no good...

I would agree completely.
Naturally your admonition of playing the edges after making a success of something is admirable. As one person just reminded me on the phone....we have never seen an Aikido teacher-to include over a dozen shihan- be capable of surviving or successfully pulling off our first warm up exercise, much less any real stress. That brings us back to the OP and this notion of Uke/ nage getting stronger.
Since 1,100 of us have never seen a shihan 6th dan or 52 go dans succeed...I was wondering just what the heck the OP meant?
I have seen the videos of many of these ki people, so I know how weak these people are-hence the ki wars, so I was asking what this notion of stronger really meant?
Add to that stronger against who?
Stronger for what?
Some chose to be presumptuous and assume I meant MMA. Fighting was not my point, but rather serious stress testing.
But again, as was pointed out to me, we have never seen any of these people pull off even a minor exercise we do, so I am not talking about going to even our medium level testing, much less advance work or actually knowing how to fight with it.
So again who is getting stronger with what?
How?
Against who?
Doing what?

Our model
Start cooperatively
Gradually raise the bar
reach a point of sustaining yourself against solid muscular force
start over
Soft power to soft power, learn to change the change with aiki. If your ki is weaker you lose.
Pressurize with grappling /MMA until you can fight with it freely.

If this notion of "everyone is supposed to be a success" were true doesn't that lead you back to zero? It sure as hell isn't budo, or any form of Aikido that; Ueshiba, Shirata, Shioda, Mochizuki, Tomiki, Inue, or Tohei was involved in. It's just going to fail against anyone who practiced a budo.
It always has and it always will. Some just want to be recognized as having equal worth when they couldn't remain vertical on a mat.
What's up with that?
Graham says "Give everyone an "A" for trying."
No thanks...I want people who can remain vertical against a capable martial artist.
Dan

[graham christian]

I met a man trying to improve his Aikido, I helped him, he improved.

I met a man trying but lost, I helped him, he improved.

I met a man so scared of failure he was scared to try. I helped him, he improved.

Yes indeed, an 'A' for trying, all it needs is someone who understands and can help.

Peace.G.

[DH]

Sounds to me like Tohei said that Ueshiba was talking to other people.

Best,

Chris
Hi Bud
I hope you continue to offer your quotes....for the rest of the readership.
Incoherent, non-responsive myth making be damned.
Although this:
Ueshiba was a martial artist ..... He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.
......Was one of the funniest -albeit amateurish and ill informed- attempts at myth making I have read in a while. Sounds like a Jacki Chan movie doesn't it?
Dan

[Chris Li]

Hi Bud
I hope you continue to offer your quotes....for the rest of the readership.
Incoherent, non-responsive myth making be damned.
Although this:
Ueshiba was a martial artist ..... He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.
......Was one of the funniest -albeit amateurish and ill informed- attempts at myth making I have read in a while. Sounds like a Jacki Chan movie doesn't it?
Dan

I'm just busy keeping immovable - my wife calls it being stubborn :)

The whole thing reminded me of one of my favorite movies!

http://youtu.be/qZdQvqsZ4og

Best,

Chris

[dps]

State a history that is untrue
Support it with rhetoric
Misstate dates and facts
Invent thing's out of whole cloth
Mistranslate known sayings
Come back later as if it never happened and use the correct terminology of those who corrected you.......
With no acknowledgment of preceding events.
Its called dialogue on the internet.
Dan

Nobody does it better than you.

dps

[graham christian]

Hi Bud
I hope you continue to offer your quotes....for the rest of the readership.
Incoherent, non-responsive myth making be damned.
Although this:
Ueshiba was a martial artist ..... He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.
......Was one of the funniest -albeit amateurish and ill informed- attempts at myth making I have read in a while. Sounds like a Jacki Chan movie doesn't it?
Dan

"When I used to go to other schools I would never challenge the Sensei of the dojo. An individual in charge of a dojo is burdened with many things, so it is very hard for him to display his true ability. I would pay him the proper respects and learn from him. If I judged myself superior, I would again pay him my respects and return home." (quote)

Look and learn.

Peace.G.

[Chris Li]

"When I used to go to other schools I would never challenge the Sensei of the dojo. An individual in charge of a dojo is burdened with many things, so it is very hard for him to display his true ability. I would pay him the proper respects and learn from him. If I judged myself superior, I would again pay him my respects and return home." (quote)

Look and learn.

Peace.G.

Well, there are a couple of things in that interview that I would question. But most of all, what would you expect him to say about himself in a formal interview?

Best,

Chris

[gregstec]

Nobody does it better than you.

dps

Well, that was a very nice sophomoric cheap shot - speaks volumes to your level of professionalism and knowledge associated with the topics generally discussed by the individual you just attacked.

I know that Dan can be harsh in his criticism, but it is what is - it you think he is full of BS and does not know what he is talking about, just go see him - many have and all are still coming back for more. If you are serious about your art, get out of your comfort zone and go see those that can challenge you; no other 'testing' is required - truth is truth.

Greg

[graham christian]

Well, there are a couple of things in that interview that I would question. But most of all, what would you expect him to say about himself in a formal interview?

Best,

Chris

No doubt there are. Funny how you doubt he was being truthful. As I said before "I understand Ueshiba"

An honourable man. A straightforward man. A very aware man. A man of dignity. A man of budo who realized true budo is love. A spiritual man.

When questioning results in understanding there is no more question.

Anyway, just me, understanding the man, quoting the man, showing an example of behaviour given by the man, an example ridiculed earlier. But hey, believe what you want.

Peace.G.

[dps]

Well, that was a very nice sophomoric cheap shot - speaks volumes to your level of professionalism and knowledge associated with the topics generally discussed by the individual you just attacked.

I know that Dan can be harsh in his criticism, but it is what is - it you think he is full of BS and does not know what he is talking about, just go see him - many have and all are still coming back for more. If you are serious about your art, get out of your comfort zone and go see those that can challenge you; no other 'testing' is required - truth is truth.

Greg

The comment was about his past " dialogue on the internet " on this and other forums.
.
Wether I think he full of BS or does not know what he is talking about is your inference.

As far as sophomoric cheap shot, he has done a few of those too.

dps

[graham christian]

Greg old buddy. How about some love testing. It's just as valid as Ki testing. I mean, it is budo in Aikido.

Peace.G.

[gregstec]

As far as sophomoric cheap shot, he has done a few of those too.

dps

Oh, I don't know about that - a cheap shot is specifically designed to insult without a basis in fact - as stated, Dan can be a bit tactless with his criticism, but it is all based on fact and is not designed to insult - as they say, sometimes truth hurts,

Greg

[DH]

Come on guys!!
The subject matter I have been discussing for 16 years is above
reproach. No one.....not one....in your art has been able to challenge its veracity in person. All you have left is personal attacks... from a distance. Why? There is nothing you can do. Nothing. In person you fail, over and over, time and time again.

Morihei Ueshiba was just another of the greats, in a continuing line of men using Internal power/aiki. It is the foundation of everything your art is. This is why so many in your art are chasing it.
Now we find Ueshiba was all but quoting me in heretofore untranslated works. How did THAT happen?
It wasn't his, it isn't mine....it is well established and it's waiting for us.
Dan

[gregstec]

Greg old buddy. How about some love testing. It's just as valid as Ki testing. I mean, it is budo in Aikido.

Peace.G.

"Love Testing" - send me some pictures :D

Greg

[graham christian]

"Love Testing" - send me some pictures :D

Greg

It's upper level stuff. Real Aikido. IHTBF.

Peace.G.

[chillzATL]

I would agree completely.
Naturally your admonition of playing the edges after making a success of something is admirable. As one person just reminded me on the phone....we have never seen an Aikido teacher-to include over a dozen shihan- be capable of surviving or successfully pulling off our first warm up exercise, much less any real stress. That brings us back to the OP and this notion of Uke/ nage getting stronger.
Since 1,100 of us have never seen a shihan 6th dan or 52 go dans succeed...I was wondering just what the heck the OP meant?
I have seen the videos of many of these ki people, so I know how weak these people are-hence the ki wars, so I was asking what this notion of stronger really meant?
Add to that stronger against who?
Stronger for what?
Some chose to be presumptuous and assume I meant MMA. Fighting was not my point, but rather serious stress testing.
But again, as was pointed out to me, we have never seen any of these people pull off even a minor exercise we do, so I am not talking about going to even our medium level testing, much less advance work or actually knowing how to fight with it.
So again who is getting stronger with what?
How?
Against who?
Doing what?

Our model
Start cooperatively
Gradually raise the bar
reach a point of sustaining yourself against solid muscular force
start over
Soft power to soft power, learn to change the change with aiki. If your ki is weaker you lose.
Pressurize with grappling /MMA until you can fight with it freely.


Thank you Dan, I appreciate you taking the time to come back and outline what you meant in more specific terms. I'll answer:

Stronger? Trying to get stronger at using internal strength and by way of that, better at aikido. I didn't say just stronger, but better, because that sensitivity to what the other person is doing is as much aikido as pure strength is, but it uses all the same components. Relaxed connection in me, to the ground, held together with breath and ki and moved at the middle and with intent. You know, all the buzzwords! :) but working with people who are better than me to the point that I feel comfortable using them and knowing I have some real, felt grasp of them.

how? Various exercises and by getting together with people who are better than me, stronger. Mostly outside of aikido, lots of pushing, pulling, moving with various resistances and trying to keep all of the above things going and together against as much as you can take, paired and solo.

I do feel I get some decent practice out of aikido classes too. Everything there is really designed for my above goals, so it's not too hard, but it is definitely different because of how people respond and we're a style that makes you work and doesn't go through the motions. Even with that, it's still a different kind of resistance, not perfect, but I'm no powerhouse so it's all still good practice for where I'm at. I've got some people there who are interested in this stuff as well so they'll make me work even harder. Even on the uke side there's enough interesting things you can do to make yourself hard to move and actively use the condition and skills to make other people work harder, attacking their center, using the connection to resist, etc, all subtly. That's how I think the art is supposed to be and the progression of skill, but it takes multiple people with some level of those skills and the desire to really build them.

i don't think our progression or what we're working towards is any different, but I only speak for me. . I'd love to know what you're first warmup is, but I won't ask because I know you won't answer. :) You said fall right?

[chillzATL]

I'm just busy keeping immovable - my wife calls it being stubborn :)

The whole thing reminded me of one of my favorite movies!

http://youtu.be/qZdQvqsZ4og

Best,

Chris

Have you tried telling her that you can't take out the trash because "woman, i'm busy standing on the floating bridge". if not, you should.. and let me know how that goes :)

[gregstec]

It's upper level stuff. Real Aikido. IHTBF.

Peace.G.

i like the felt part - cc Phi on the pictures, i know he is into this type of 'higher level' stuff:hypno:

greg

[Chris Li]

No doubt there are. Funny how you doubt he was being truthful. As I said before "I understand Ueshiba"

An honourable man. A straightforward man. A very aware man. A man of dignity. A man of budo who realized true budo is love. A spiritual man.

When questioning results in understanding there is no more question.

Anyway, just me, understanding the man, quoting the man, showing an example of behaviour given by the man, an example ridiculed earlier. But hey, believe what you want.

Peace.G.

People rarely speak the whole truth about themselves, especially in Japan. Anyway, there are plenty of concrete examples where the truth has been "shaded".

After all, his own nephew broke off relations because he didn't consider him to be honorable, no matter what he said about himself.

Best,

Chris

[Chris Li]

Have you tried telling her that you can't take out the trash because "woman, i'm busy standing on the floating bridge". if not, you should.. and let me know how that goes :)

That might be too much pressure testing - even by Dan's standards! :D

Best,

Chris

[graham christian]

People rarely speak the whole truth about themselves, especially in Japan. Anyway, there are plenty of concrete examples where the truth has been "shaded".

After all, his own nephew broke off relations because he didn't consider him to be honorable, no matter what he said about himself.

Best,

Chris

Ha, ha. Now his Nephew is the 'right' one. Please.......His nephew was also quite a great charachter and co-founder of Aikido.

I think you twist it once again to suit. They had a personal disagreement. Because he didn't consider him to be honourable....ha, ha, good joke.

He certainly didn't find someone to be honourable and we all know who that is.

Peace.G.

[DH]

People rarely speak the whole truth about themselves, especially in Japan. Anyway, there are plenty of concrete examples where the truth has been "shaded".

After all, his own nephew broke off relations because he didn't consider him to be honorable, no matter what he said about himself.

Best,

Chris
And Inue told people why too. Careful, Chris. You're going to ruin the Jackie Chan, Mr. M!iyagi, Ghandi, vision of Ueshiba certain people have!!
"He traveled to many dojo to learn...and partake and where he could learn he did without a word, uplifting them...where could not....he left only his shadow as a blessing...a whisper heard in the night.....Ueshiba.....shhhh!!
At one famous temple he left a single pebble, snatched from a hand....
Dan

[graham christian]

People rarely speak the whole truth about themselves, especially in Japan. Anyway, there are plenty of concrete examples where the truth has been "shaded".

After all, his own nephew broke off relations because he didn't consider him to be honorable, no matter what he said about himself.

Best,

Chris

People rarely speak the whole truth about themselves especially in Japan??????? Wow!

I need say no more, more bu needed so you can better your bun perhaps.

Peace.G.

[graham christian]

And Inue told people why too. Careful, Chris. You're going to ruin the Jackie Chan, Mr. M!iyagi, Ghandi, vision of Ueshiba certain people have!!
"He traveled to many dojo to learn...and partake and where he could learn he did without a word, uplifting them...where could not....he left only his shadow as a blessing...a whisper heard in the night.....Ueshiba.....shhhh!!
At one famous temple he left a single pebble, snatched from a hand....
Dan

What he said about him and another said about another. Worthless gossip and natter. Unbudo.

Peace.G.

[Chris Li]

Ha, ha. Now his Nephew is the 'right' one. Please.......His nephew was also quite a great charachter and co-founder of Aikido.

I think you twist it once again to suit. They had a personal disagreement. Because he didn't consider him to be honourable....ha, ha, good joke.

He certainly didn't find someone to be honourable and we all know who that is.

Peace.G.

I never said he was right, it's more complex than that - but every argument has two sides and Ueshiba wasn't always on the right one.

Best,

Chris

[Chris Li]

People rarely speak the whole truth about themselves especially in Japan??????? Wow!

I need say no more, more bu needed so you can better your bun perhaps.

Peace.G.

Sure, it's so ingrained in the culture that they have specific words for the concept.

Best,

Chris

[graham christian]

Sure, it's so ingrained in the culture that they have specific words for the concept.

Best,

Chris

Every culture has words for it. Anyway I'm ending this discussion here as it leads nowhere.

Ki testing is the subject.

Peace.G.

[Basia Halliop]

During practice of anything a person fails many times, that's why it's called practice.

You don't need to test to it then do you? It's already built in and acknowledged by the understanding of what practice is.

Ah, I see! It seems we're simply thinking of different things when we say 'testing'. I was thinking of the many tiny moments that happen all the time in practice, when we repeatedly try an exercise or technique many times, sometimes successfully and sometimes not... I'm also thinking of situations where I, for example, deliberately make _myself_ fail in a specific task in some exercise or technique, as a little experiment to see what works or doesn't.

[Chris Li]

Every culture has words for it. Anyway I'm ending this discussion here as it leads nowhere.

Ki testing is the subject.

Peace.G.

But not all cultures are the same or place the same emphasis on certain cultural conventions, and Japan is well known in this area. Anyway, I agree that it has little to do with the subject.

Best,

Chris

[Basia Halliop]

There are those who encourage others and flow from the view of "you can" then there are those who are out to prove "you can't" and enjoy failure.

I've met many who were tested to failure and gave up. Bad teaching.

While this is a very real possibility and something to beware of, I can also think of many very positive interactions I had where I did not always 'succeed'. The tone of the interactions I'm thinking of was not negative or competitive and I had no sense that my partner was trying to prove I couldn't do it or show off that they were better than me (and I've definitely had those interactions too so I can feel the difference!)

It felt much more like a brainstorming session. We would end up identifying weaknesses in what one or both of us were doing and often then collaborating to come up with ideas to improve the weaknesses, or if we couldn't come up with one at the moment, mulling it over later or asking Sensei about it at a later time. For me when it does work well it's more exciting or intriguing than particularly demoralizing...

[graham christian]

While this is a very real possibility and something to beware of, I can also think of many very positive interactions I had where I did not always 'succeed'. The tone of the interactions I'm thinking of was not negative or competitive and I had no sense that my partner was trying to prove I couldn't do it or show off that they were better than me (and I've definitely had those interactions too so I can feel the difference!)

It felt much more like a brainstorming session. We would end up identifying weaknesses in what one or both of us were doing and often then collaborating to come up with ideas to improve the weaknesses, or if we couldn't come up with one at the moment, mulling it over later or asking Sensei about it at a later time. For me when it does work well it's more exciting or intriguing than particularly demoralizing...

I like it and agree 100% Basia. In fact more than that 1000% ha, ha. My favourite way of practice.

Peace.G.

[akiy]

Despite my asking for an improvement in tone here in this thread, it doesn't seem like the tone has improved any.

Thread closed.

-- Jun