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Mary Eastland
07-16-2012, 07:57 AM
Have you noticed how when you turn your hips and let you hands stay in proportion to your hips, your shoulders follow your hips and can provide extra opportunity to your hands?

Gerardo Torres
07-16-2012, 12:48 PM
I don't think you should be turning from your hips. At least we don't do that in weapons, and I've been working to remove that habit from aikido as well.

SeiserL
07-16-2012, 12:58 PM
Yes agreed.

If you point everything in one direction and move as a unified body, combined with mental focus/awareness and intention/attention/projection, you may just find some extra power and opportunities.

lbb
07-16-2012, 03:42 PM
Are "turning your hips" and "turning from your hips" the same thing?

Mary Eastland
07-16-2012, 04:22 PM
Uke pushes...nage turns at the hips...nage's opposite arm comes underneath uke's elbow and past, curling up...nage turns hips back in the direction whense she came ...uke's elbow collapses as nage's shoulder follows nage's opposite hip.

What I am noticing is how the shoulder joint can move to help unsettle uke as it moves in conjunction with the hips.

I hope that is clearer than mud. :o)

Gerardo Torres
07-16-2012, 05:03 PM
Are "turning your hips" and "turning from your hips" the same thing?
Add a third one: "turns at the hips". All three imply a conscious decision to use hip rotation to source or generate power, or initiate/create movement. All three are inefficient ways to do this IMO, especially keeping shoulders and hips rotating in unison as this will cause one to get locked and stopped pretty easily. Also, if hips and shoulders are rotating together, what's happening to the knees?

Chris Li
07-16-2012, 05:14 PM
Try Googling "three external harmonies" - here's the first result that came up when I tried it:

http://www.martialtaichi.co.uk/articles/six_harmonies.php

Best,

Chris

Chris Knight
07-16-2012, 05:17 PM
plus one gerrado

mary ~ my thoughts would be to try to neutralise the push, or worst case scenario turn with ur centre, not your hips

just my opinion

regards Chris

Chris Li
07-16-2012, 05:23 PM
plus one gerrado

mary ~ my thoughts would be to try to neutralise the push, or worst case scenario turn with ur centre, not your hips

just my opinion

regards Chris

Yes, I'd go with (the other) Chris and Gerardo - no turning from da hips.

Best,

Chris

Janet Rosen
07-16-2012, 05:24 PM
... turn with ur centre, not your hips


I didn't understand the difference between center and hips well until I started having to do seated kokyudosa from a crosslegged, therefore externally static, position. I could not move my hips but could instead focus on free movement of my center - not as "there" as I'd like but in fact its a lovely exercise for it....

Mary Eastland
07-16-2012, 06:06 PM
Yes, I'd go with (the other) Chris and Gerardo - no turning from da hips.

Best,

Chris
Thanks for your input...did you try it?

Chris Li
07-16-2012, 06:17 PM
Thanks for your input...did you try it?

The exercise you were talking about? Not yet. Not turning from the hips? All the time. Hips can turn, I'd say, but only if you are also changing location.

Best,

Chris

RonRagusa
07-16-2012, 06:35 PM
my thoughts would be to try to neutralise the push

In this exercise the push is neutralized before any motion takes place.

Ron

graham christian
07-16-2012, 06:54 PM
In answer to the o/p I find yes and no.

Yes in as much as if wanting to use your shoulder then the connection with the hips is imperative.

Secondly I would say that two things can be practiced:
1) Turning from centre.
2) Turning from hips (koshi) (kua)

I would ask you Mary as to which part of the hips do you feel you are moving ie: the whole bowl so to speak or do you concentrate on relaxing the back of the hips and thus that pivotal point.?

Personally now I find the shoulders 'disappearing' when turning the hips, going 'passive' rather than 'active' and if I am reading your exercise correctly it would then lead me more to a kokyu ho type exercise.

Peace.G.

SeiserL
07-16-2012, 06:57 PM
IMHO, taking the structural alignment from the foot, up the leg, "through" the hips/center/hara, extended into the elbows, out the fingers, extended/projected into and through the uke's center, towards a kuzushi point tends to do it for me.

Visualize the path. Energy follows focus.

Mary Eastland
07-16-2012, 07:00 PM
Shoulder disappearing then reemerging... blending with uke's push when needed... not if if not needed. Each uke is so different.

graham christian
07-16-2012, 07:17 PM
Shoulder disappearing then reemerging... blending with uke's push when needed... not if if not needed. Each uke is so different.

Granted. I agree.

As an added bit of interest your description reminded me of something I was taught or rather shown many moons ago and although it's not really to do with hip/shoulder it is to do with turning and then turning back.

I was wondering how comes the teacher could turn me back and flip me with hardly any movement from himself. He showed me what it looked like if done so that I could see it. He proceeded to take my attack and lead me around with a complete tai sabaki and then turn back with kote gaeshi. All very slowly and comfortably.

He said after lots of practice and focus on the flows and energy of such basics you can already have it done which looks to the outsider like a short cut or something totally different. Yet energy wise it's the same as that slow well recognizable form.

Peace.G.

SeiserL
07-17-2012, 10:25 AM
I also like the image of a double-cross: in which there are two horizontal arms (the shoulders and the hips) directly aligned with each other and a third vertical post (the spine). Turn neither the shoulders or the hips, turn the spine.

Mary Eastland
07-17-2012, 10:30 AM
I also like the image of a double-cross: in which there are two horizontal arms (the shoulders and the hips) directly aligned with each other and a third vertical post (the spine). Turn neither the shoulders or the hips, turn the spine.

Yes....thanks.

I have couple of students who can't find their hips...hense my fascination with this right now.

graham christian
07-17-2012, 12:39 PM
I wrote about this when I talked about Koshi. Basically Japanese use the word to mean hips but more specifically the back of the hips, base of the spine.

So when Japanese teachers used to tell my teacher to open his hips he found many didn't understand as they saw the hips conceptually as that bowl or even the sides rather than what was meant.

Once again it's a western concept put over the Japanese and so people struggle with understanding it.

To get the reality to my students I get them practicing the feeling of sitting on a comfortable chair or setee and how that action is where you naturally relax the back of the hips and and lower it. Thus awareness of koshi and the Japanese meaning for hips is gained.

I then give examples of let's say the horse stance and how that is sitting in koshi.

Other methods of how to find the hips.

Peace.G.

Mary Eastland
07-17-2012, 01:58 PM
I wrote about this when I talked about Koshi. Basically Japanese use the word to mean hips but more specifically the back of the hips, base of the spine.

So when Japanese teachers used to tell my teacher to open his hips he found many didn't understand as they saw the hips conceptually as that bowl or even the sides rather than what was meant.

Once again it's a western concept put over the Japanese and so people struggle with understanding it.

To get the reality to my students I get them practicing the feeling of sitting on a comfortable chair or setee and how that action is where you naturally relax the back of the hips and and lower it. Thus awareness of koshi and the Japanese meaning for hips is gained.

I then give examples of let's say the horse stance and how that is sitting in koshi.

Other methods of how to find the hips.

Peace.G.
Great, I will give that a try. :)

Chris Li
07-17-2012, 02:15 PM
I wrote about this when I talked about Koshi. Basically Japanese use the word to mean hips but more specifically the back of the hips, base of the spine.

So when Japanese teachers used to tell my teacher to open his hips he found many didn't understand as they saw the hips conceptually as that bowl or even the sides rather than what was meant.


Well there is a specific instance (ie, a backache) in which the koshi is used for the lower back area, but generally they're just talking about the whole pelvic region.

Best,

Chris

graham christian
07-17-2012, 02:58 PM
Well there is a specific instance (ie, a backache) in which the koshi is used for the lower back area, but generally they're just talking about the whole pelvic region.

Best,

Chris

Not so. In martial arts and in medicine which is far more pertinent to the discussion.

Funny thing is that tai chi also has a problem with peoples misunderstanding of a similar thing they call kua or cua ( I forget which is the right spelling).

The development of Koshi I would say is one of those fundamental 'secrets' hidden in plain sight and if you prefer a 'general' meaning for it then you will never get it.

Peace.G.

Chris Li
07-17-2012, 03:19 PM
Not so. In martial arts and in medicine which is far more pertinent to the discussion.

Funny thing is that tai chi also has a problem with peoples misunderstanding of a similar thing they call kua or cua ( I forget which is the right spelling).

The development of Koshi I would say is one of those fundamental 'secrets' hidden in plain sight and if you prefer a 'general' meaning for it then you will never get it.

Peace.G.

As I said, there are instances of use for the back region, but when most people (even martial artists) use it in reference to movement they're talking about the entire pelvis and waist combined.

You can make up your own usage for it, but Japanese people won't understand it.

The kua is something quite different.

Best,

Chris

graham christian
07-17-2012, 04:04 PM
As I said, there are instances of use for the back region, but when most people (even martial artists) use it in reference to movement they're talking about the entire pelvis and waist combined.

You can make up your own usage for it, but Japanese people won't understand it.

The kua is something quite different.

Best,

Chris

Strange as it was Japanese who taught us it and my Japanese friend who demonstrated it. But there again they were martial artists and in fact Aikidoka not Hiroshi the local shopkeeper.

Anyway, until you can use it as such and know where else in martial arts it is used and which ones compare to how I use it here then there's no more to say really.

Peace.G.

mrlizard123
07-18-2012, 04:52 AM
in fact Aikidoka not Hiroshi the local shopkeeper.

Necessary? If you've heard a word used in a particular context/usage it's fine to say this is how you've heard it, also fine if you say someone else has described it thusly.

Telling someone who speaks a particular language, which you don't, that you understand the general usage of a term better than they sounds a little like hubris; the point Chris made was that he is familiar with the term in martial contexts as well.

I don't believe he mentioned shopkeepers at all and, even if he had, why couldn't a shopkeeper also have martially relevant knowledge?

chillzATL
07-18-2012, 08:23 AM
Necessary? If you've heard a word used in a particular context/usage it's fine to say this is how you've heard it, also fine if you say someone else has described it thusly.

Telling someone who speaks a particular language, which you don't, that you understand the general usage of a term better than they sounds a little like hubris; the point Chris made was that he is familiar with the term in martial contexts as well.

I don't believe he mentioned shopkeepers at all and, even if he had, why couldn't a shopkeeper also have martially relevant knowledge?

That's pretty much how he operates. His understanding of something is never wrong, you just don't get it the way he does.

Mary Eastland
07-18-2012, 09:01 AM
Wow...this thread must be a world record...we actually stayed on topic for 25 posts.

vjw
07-18-2012, 09:23 AM
Wow...this thread must be a world record...we actually stayed on topic for 25 posts.

Well that ends that then:o

mrlizard123
07-18-2012, 09:32 AM
Wow...this thread must be a world record...we actually stayed on topic for 25 posts.

25 posts, so that makes Graham's dig at Chris regarding shopkeepers and the implication that Chris doesn't understand on topic?

I notice that you never call Graham to task for his diversions in to slights; my post is merely asking why we can't discuss things as our perspectives rather than, as Graham did in this case, declaring that disagreeing with him is essentially wrong/lack of understanding.

Just so I'm clear; if instead I had said "Someone once told me it's definitely not just the lower back; they weren't a greengrocer and were in fact an Aikidoka. Maybe one day you'll understand it." it would have been on topic?

Mary Eastland
07-18-2012, 09:49 AM
Whoops, I should have said 24...my mistake. sorry.

mrlizard123
07-18-2012, 10:03 AM
Whoops, I should have said 24...my mistake. sorry.

No worries Mary, apologies on my part as well for participating in the thread drift.

FWIW I'm of the opinion that it's ok to move your hips (otherwise how would we get anywhere? :D) but not as a source of power; I would not move my hips if the goal of that movement was affecting uke, but if I needed to translate my body in space of course I would.

MM
07-18-2012, 11:47 AM
Mary,
Hi. Are you referring to a movement that's like "hitoemi"? One where your shoulders stay over your hips as you move? I was still a little unclear on your description.

In general, though, I agree with Gerardo, Chris, and Chris. I typically don't have shoulders and hips moving as one, nor do I initiate movement with the hips. With weapons, I've been shown why that is a bad thing.

As a training tool ... again, I personally wouldn't do that. But, I have heard that a "hitoemi" type of movement can generate some strength/power.

Mark

graham christian
07-18-2012, 12:56 PM
Necessary? If you've heard a word used in a particular context/usage it's fine to say this is how you've heard it, also fine if you say someone else has described it thusly.

Telling someone who speaks a particular language, which you don't, that you understand the general usage of a term better than they sounds a little like hubris; the point Chris made was that he is familiar with the term in martial contexts as well.

I don't believe he mentioned shopkeepers at all and, even if he had, why couldn't a shopkeeper also have martially relevant knowledge?

Hold on a minute what's your problem?

My words and comments were on topic thank you. Chris was generalizing and taking it off topic and in fact is incorrect as well.

He said the term in martial arts is used for the general pelvic area and that kua is nothing similar at all. False.

Koshi can be used for the general pelvic area and is used as I describe as well, particularly in Karate for example, It can also be used for the ball of the foot, so what, that's off topic. So in martial arts it is used as I say and he seems unaware of that, not surprisingly no matter how much Japanese he speaks. Also kua as used in tai chi (which is what I said) is very similar and open to the same kind of misunderstandings as he appears to be showing here. Very pertinent to the point of Mary for example having students trying to 'find' their hips.

By the sounds of it if you trained with me you would too for it appears you haven't come across this either.

Just because someone is Japanese speaking doesn't equal they know everything to do with a certain subject. He was being general, I was being very specific and thus saying generalities are irrelevant and off topic.

Peace.G.

graham christian
07-18-2012, 01:08 PM
Shoulder disappearing then reemerging... blending with uke's push when needed... not if if not needed. Each uke is so different.

http://youtu.be/kZ3AKzd6FPU

The beginning of this you may find interesting and relevant to the above.

Peace.G.

Chris Li
07-18-2012, 01:37 PM
Hold on a minute what's your problem?

My words and comments were on topic thank you. Chris was generalizing and taking it off topic and in fact is incorrect as well.

He said the term in martial arts is used for the general pelvic area and that kua is nothing similar at all. False.

Koshi can be used for the general pelvic area and is used as I describe as well, particularly in Karate for example, It can also be used for the ball of the foot, so what, that's off topic. So in martial arts it is used as I say and he seems unaware of that, not surprisingly no matter how much Japanese he speaks. Also kua as used in tai chi (which is what I said) is very similar and open to the same kind of misunderstandings as he appears to be showing here. Very pertinent to the point of Mary for example having students trying to 'find' their hips.

By the sounds of it if you trained with me you would too for it appears you haven't come across this either.

Just because someone is Japanese speaking doesn't equal they know everything to do with a certain subject. He was being general, I was being very specific and thus saying generalities are irrelevant and off topic.

Peace.G.

"Ball of the foot" is "koshi" - but the kanji are different, it's a completely different word.

I think that very few native Japanese speakers (and none of the Japanese native speakers that I know that do Chinese arts) would equate "koshi" with "kua".

As for the rest, I've commented previously.

Best,

Chris

Gerardo Torres
07-18-2012, 01:43 PM
I'm not a fan of the whole "shoulder disappearing/re-appearing" thing. I've seen people using it as a trick to get out of pressure. What they do is that say against a wrist grab, they take their shoulders out of their sockets --disconnect them from the upper center -- and create a void that hopefully would produce some momentum and movement for them to escape and re-direct the pressure. Doesn't matter how relaxed you think you are, it's not whole-body movement as the shoulder is acting independently and it won't affect an attacker who's centered; in fact by using the shoulder like that it gives the attacker a "handle" and easy exploit into nage's center. With weapons it's more severe as they could just drive through you if you provide such leeway into your center. Whenever somebody does this to me say during kokyu-dosa, I'm thinking OK, so you just freed your shoulders… good I guess?… but you're not doing anything to me, in fact you just gave me an advantage, a "handle" into you. I think some students go to seminars and see teachers like Endo and explore movement based on copied external mannerisms but don't really know what else is involved.

The approach I've been thought is, keep shoulders in, always. :)

graham christian
07-18-2012, 02:32 PM
I'm not a fan of the whole "shoulder disappearing/re-appearing" thing. I've seen people using it as a trick to get out of pressure. What they do is that say against a wrist grab, they take their shoulders out of their sockets --disconnect them from the upper center -- and create a void that hopefully would produce some momentum and movement for them to escape and re-direct the pressure. Doesn't matter how relaxed you think you are, it's not whole-body movement as the shoulder is acting independently and it won't affect an attacker who's centered; in fact by using the shoulder like that it gives the attacker a "handle" and easy exploit into nage's center. With weapons it's more severe as they could just drive through you if you provide such leeway into your center. Whenever somebody does this to me say during kokyu-dosa, I'm thinking OK, so you just freed your shoulders… good I guess?… but you're not doing anything to me, in fact you just gave me an advantage, a "handle" into you. I think some students go to seminars and see teachers like Endo and explore movement based on copied external mannerisms but don't really know what else is involved.

The approach I've been thought is, keep shoulders in, always. :)

You describe your experience of what you take shoulder disappearing to mean but I doubt Mary meant it that way and I certainly didn't.

Secondly, if you are good enough to use your shoulder without being 'disconnected' then there's something for those who can't to learn no?

The approach I've learned is only one thing with relation to shoulders, especially in the beginning and that is keep them down and this relates to keeping elbows in.

Peace.G.

RonRagusa
07-18-2012, 03:32 PM
http://youtu.be/kZ3AKzd6FPU

The beginning of this you may find interesting and relevant to the above.

Peace.G.

Thanks for the video post Graham.

I don't know what "take their shoulders out of their sockets" that Geraldo posted refers to. Sounds painful. The beginning of the video Graham posted looks pretty much how we practice the exercise, though we use it more for ki development than technique. A characteristic of the exercise is that uke feels like he's pushing into an unyielding object throughout the entire exercise even though nage's shoulder is retreating during the initial phase of the movement.

We have a lot of paired exercises where nage moves while being pressured by uke via pushing or pulling.

Gerardo Torres
07-18-2012, 04:12 PM
What I mean by taking the shoulders "out of their socket" is any action that results in the shoulders losing connection (popping out, acting independently, "separating", etc.) from a larger upper-body structure -- and by default, the whole-body structure. I was shown how this failure occurs and how to train to correct it. But hey, that's just poor ol' sucky me, I'm sure everybody else is awesome and doesn't do this at all so they can play around with their shoulders while keeping everything connected.

Mary Eastland
07-18-2012, 04:20 PM
Mary,
Hi. Are you referring to a movement that's like "hitoemi"? One where your shoulders stay over your hips as you move? I was still a little unclear on your description.

In general, though, I agree with Gerardo, Chris, and Chris. I typically don't have shoulders and hips moving as one, nor do I initiate movement with the hips. With weapons, I've been shown why that is a bad thing.

As a training tool ... again, I personally wouldn't do that. But, I have heard that a "hitoemi" type of movement can generate some strength/power.

Mark
Ok...I am exploring an idea...Endo Sensei really demonstrated it nicely...sorry my description was so scketchy....writing about it can be hard. I think I am saying one thing until I get it reflected back at me and then see I have said another. :)

Thanks for the video, Graham.

Mary Eastland
07-18-2012, 04:22 PM
What I mean by taking the shoulders "out of their socket" is any action that results in the shoulders losing connection (popping out, acting independently, "separating", etc.) from a larger upper-body structure -- and by default, the whole-body structure. I was shown how this failure occurs and how to train to correct it. But hey, that's just poor ol' sucky me, I'm sure everybody else is awesome and doesn't do this at all so they can play around with their shoulders while keeping everything connected.

I don't know about you being sucky and all but I can move my shoulder and still be centered. The shoulder doesn't pop out it...it blends with the grab and helps direct into the throw.

Gary David
07-18-2012, 05:08 PM
A characteristic of the exercise is that uke feels like he's pushing into an unyielding object throughout the entire exercise even though nage's shoulder is retreating during the initial phase of the movement.

We have a lot of paired exercises where nage moves while being pressured by uke via pushing or pulling.

Ron
At issue is how you receive/absorb/disperse/redirect/etc the incoming attack and energy. In this case the shoulder is the point of contact. Iif you hold it at the shoulders then you have disconnected from the rest of the body. The shoulder can be firm with everything passing through as long as everything is connected. By the way.......the shoulder follows it does not initiate, same with hips....they follow. If you initiate with the shoulders you have disconnected. How I see it......... And I think this is the road Gerado is traveling..........

Gary

RonRagusa
07-18-2012, 06:50 PM
Ron
At issue is how you receive/absorb/disperse/redirect/etc the incoming attack and energy. In this case the shoulder is the point of contact. Iif you hold it at the shoulders then you have disconnected from the rest of the body. The shoulder can be firm with everything passing through as long as everything is connected. By the way.......the shoulder follows it does not initiate, same with hips....they follow. If you initiate with the shoulders you have disconnected. How I see it......... And I think this is the road Gerado is traveling..........

Gary

Hi Gary -

I never mentioned the shoulder or hips initiating any movement. The body moves as a relaxed, integrated unit, not piecemeal. That idea was drummed into my and Mary's heads for years by Maruyama Sensei.

There is no disconnect because if the shoulder disconnects uke will run right thru you.

Ron

mrlizard123
07-19-2012, 05:49 AM
Hold on a minute what's your problem?
I don't know Graham, it's something to do with these reply and quote buttons that jump right out when I read some things...

By the sounds of it if you trained with me you would too for it appears you haven't come across this either.
An open door to visitors? :)

Gary David
07-19-2012, 07:12 AM
Hi Gary -

I never mentioned the shoulder or hips initiating any movement. The body moves as a relaxed, integrated unit, not piecemeal. That idea was drummed into my and Mary's heads for years by Maruyama Sensei.

There is no disconnect because if the shoulder disconnects uke will run right thru you.

Ron

Ron
My experience tells me that maintaining internal connection within yourself, your oneness if you like, is incredibly difficult to maintain as you move within a simulated environment where one attacks another within a training environment.....the problem being that one doesn't even sense/feel when they fall in and out of stability as they respond to the attack. Working on a daily basis within one's friendly and comfortable training environment doesn't help to bring these moments up to a level of awareness as you move through your training. It is also clear that dropping in and out is part of the reality of the relationship between people as they move together. Moving together in a friendly environment makes it less likely, over time, that one's awareness within oneself of the 'openings' presented by them within the movement come to the surface of their awareness.

Talking about the movement shown by Endo Sensei in the clip, for my part I would want to feel what he is doing as he is doing it to understand his level of connection within himself, where his movement is generated and how he is maintaining the bridge with me.

as ever

Gary

Mary Eastland
07-19-2012, 09:56 AM
Since we already are doing that we can relate to how what Endo, Sensei is doing feels like. don't Testing is progressive. By testing I mean giving appropriate resistance according to the nage's experience.

Gary David
07-19-2012, 11:41 AM
Since we already are doing that we can relate to how what Endo, Sensei is doing feels like. don't Testing is progressive. By testing I mean giving appropriate resistance according to the nage's experience.

Well that is that....... Nothing much I can add to your experiences or training processes.

My experiences, and mine alone, tell me that one goes in and out of phase any number of times during any single run through with any one partner........most are just not aware of it though the set of circumstances that guides the training model. When you go out side your local arrangement, when you go outside your association it becomes more evIdent. This is only a concern if one is still looking for something other or to add to what they are currently doing......if not be happy.

I can't comment on what you are doing or what you are not doing.....we have never crossed hands. As for Endo Sensei...I can see what he is doing, can see hints of where it is coming from, but if I want to know for sure I have to feel it. I don't have to totally resist...just make the connect and see what I get back. Of course that is what my experience tells me.....

As ever

Gary

graham christian
07-19-2012, 12:21 PM
I don't know Graham, it's something to do with these reply and quote buttons that jump right out when I read some things...

An open door to visitors? :)

Never turned one away yet but I suppose there's always a first time;)

Peace.G.

graham christian
07-19-2012, 12:26 PM
Well that is that....... Nothing much I can add to your experiences or training processes.

My experiences, and mine alone, tell me that one goes in and out of phase any number of times during any single run through with any one partner........most are just not aware of it though the set of circumstances that guides the training model. When you go out side your local arrangement, when you go outside your association it becomes more evIdent. This is only a concern if one is still looking for something other or to add to what they are currently doing......if not be happy.

I can't comment on what you are doing or what you are not doing.....we have never crossed hands. As for Endo Sensei...I can see what he is doing, can see hints of where it is coming from, but if I want to know for sure I have to feel it. I don't have to totally resist...just make the connect and see what I get back. Of course that is what my experience tells me.....

As ever

Gary

Gary, couldn't help coming in here because of the way you say one goes in and out of phase and the point of being aware of it. I like it!

Peace.G.

Gerardo Torres
07-19-2012, 12:30 PM
Like Gary, I also speak from my experiences on the mat feeling different practitioners and teachers, and I share with him the notion of just how extremely difficult things like connection are; all these notions are relative until people actually meet and discuss their relative standards and goals. These topics are better approached with everybody in the same room, and better yet with an inter-disciplinary crowd (not just aikido "uke") in order to keep everybody honest.

Perhaps I am misinterpreting what Mary and others are saying about the way they move. If so I apologize, but all the talk about hip movement sure pointed in a direction opposite to where I intend to go. Blending and hip-shoulder together while moving also sounded like all-too-common approaches to aiki and martial movement that I don't find too impressive. Again, perhaps there's more and we're all more or less on the same page, but I couldn't gather it from what was written here.

Mary Eastland
07-19-2012, 12:53 PM
Since I was talking about my process...then it is all good. Did you try what I wrote about ?

DH
07-19-2012, 03:22 PM
Like Gary, I also speak from my experiences on the mat feeling different practitioners and teachers, and I share with him the notion of just how extremely difficult things like connection are; all these notions are relative until people actually meet and discuss their relative standards and goals. These topics are better approached with everybody in the same room, and better yet with an inter-disciplinary crowd (not just aikido "uke") in order to keep everybody honest.

Perhaps I am misinterpreting what Mary and others are saying about the way they move. If so I apologize, but all the talk about hip movement sure pointed in a direction opposite to where I intend to go. Blending and hip-shoulder together while moving also sounded like all-too-common approaches to aiki and martial movement that I don't find too impressive. Again, perhaps there's more and we're all more or less on the same page, but I couldn't gather it from what was written here.
I would just watch teachers videos, Gerardo. While some things really do have to be felt to understand them, Disconnected movement stares you in the face.
Dan

Mary Eastland
07-20-2012, 09:25 AM
Disconnected movement is easy to spot. Endo, Sensei certainly is not disconnected.

Gerardo. I am talking about a certain exercise movement. I think you might be taking it as I am saying this is the way you must move always. Again, did you try what I am talking about?

The ability to move the shoulders as a inde[pemdent joint intrigues me. Uriah Faber uses his shoulders to strike when he has his opponent up against the cage. That made me think.

George S. Ledyard
07-20-2012, 12:21 PM
Perhaps I am misinterpreting what Mary and others are saying about the way they move. If so I apologize, but all the talk about hip movement sure pointed in a direction opposite to where I intend to go. Blending and hip-shoulder together while moving also sounded like all-too-common approaches to aiki and martial movement that I don't find too impressive. Again, perhaps there's more and we're all more or less on the same page, but I couldn't gather it from what was written here.

I don't see the movement side of the art as being in any kind of necessary opposition to the internal power / connection side. I really think that taking the basic platform from Daito Ryu and giving it free movement is one of the distinguishing features of the Founder's progression from Daito Ryu, through Aiki Budo, to Aikido. The problem with much post war Aikido was that much of the methodology for the internal side of the art dropped out and what was left was the idea that non-oppositional movement alone was "aiki". Movement Aikido is about avoiding an attack, it isn't "aiki" which is about "joining" not "avoiding".

We do need to focus on developing our own structures properly and understanding how proper connection actually functions. That's the platform. The trick in great Aikido is being able to take that platform and make it movable... at least that's my take on it.

Gary David
07-20-2012, 12:48 PM
Disconnected movement is easy to spot. Endo, Sensei certainly is not disconnected.

I am not going to comment on Endo Sensei's movement, not my place without feeling his movement. I agree with Dan that you can get a feel for what is happening by watching...some are good at this and some (many) are "less good" at it.. My comments from watching the video would be more about the uke 'disconnecting' from the attack running before the response. No problem with that though in the process you need to keep enough connection back though the response to help you understand where it is going. Things can change in the movement and you want to know what the changes are so you can protect yourself and be able to put yourself in the position to counter/respond/whatever.

The ability to move the shoulders as a independent joint intrigues me. Uriah Faber uses his shoulders to strike when he has his opponent up against the cage. That made me think.

To me care needs to be taken that one just removes substance from the shoulder and does not disconnect. The shoulder, to me, is not independent rather still just part of the whole as you move to secondary pressure and maybe even further back than that. I can stand still and roll my shoulders independent of the rest of my body.....it is disconnected and on its own. I don't think you are talking about that.

As ever

Gary

Gary David
07-20-2012, 12:59 PM
We do need to focus on developing our own structures properly and understanding how proper connection actually functions. That's the platform. The trick in great Aikido is being able to take that platform and make it movable... at least that's my take on it.

George
Thinking of platform and making it moveable reminds me of something I watched maybe 30 years ago, I was at a local mall to buy something or the other and get a little lunch. In the central area they were have a fashion show using local folks. There were several young girls dressed up and wearing what were high high heels for the time. Standing they were the perfect picture.....structure was perfect....once they started to move it all fell apart.

With Aikido we have to incorporate the IP/IS and aiki into the whole to make right movement. Practicing for this is what makes it efficient.and effective.

My thoughts....

Gary

Mary Eastland
07-20-2012, 02:31 PM
Aikido is about joining and blending and avoiding. It is about whatever it takes to deal with the given circumstances. Trying to put it in a box to meet a certain teacher's criteria doesn't make any sense to me. How can there be a separation of aikido and movement? Any feeling that can done standing can be maintained in movement as you blend and redirect or enter with uke.

graham christian
07-20-2012, 03:10 PM
Movement Aikido as I learned it is about joining with, being with, and non oppositional. This discipline leads to and in fact cannot avoid internal growth, awareness and oneness as a result.

Thus the platform from my view is motion, harmonizing with.

Peace.G.

Chris Li
07-20-2012, 03:51 PM
Aikido is about joining and blending and avoiding. It is about whatever it takes to deal with the given circumstances. Trying to put it in a box to meet a certain teacher's criteria doesn't make any sense to me. How can there be a separation of aikido and movement? Any feeling that can done standing can be maintained in movement as you blend and redirect or enter with uke.

Sure, but the problem with moving (and this is why O-Sensei didn't teach Ki-no-nagare until San Dan) is that there's so much more stuff happening, so many more variables to account for.

Children learn to stand up before they walk, before they run, for the very same reasons - it takes their physical systems some amount of time to learn to cope with the increased variable load.

One of the biggest problems in Aikido, IMO, is that people start moving around too soon and can't feel that everything that should have going inside their bodies is actually falling apart.

Best,

Chris

graham christian
07-20-2012, 04:49 PM
Isn't standing up a motion? Children learn these motions and don't 'fall apart inside'.

A bull fighter learns motions without 'falling apart inside'

A surfer does too.

If you wan't to go further then I would say meditation itself is handling motion withou 'falling apart inside'

Aikido basics I would say.

Peace.G.

Chris Li
07-20-2012, 04:59 PM
Isn't standing up a motion? Children learn these motions and don't 'fall apart inside'.

A bull fighter learns motions without 'falling apart inside'

A surfer does too.

If you wan't to go further then I would say meditation itself is handling motion withou 'falling apart inside'

Aikido basics I would say.

Peace.G.

I don't know about your kids, by mine fell over more than a few times before they learned to stand up successfully.

A bull fighter or a surfer learns those things - but they are learned skills, that's the point.

How many surfers stand up on the board and shoot the tube the first day? Most of them have to work up to it, over a period of time. Surfing lessons usually start with someone standing up on the board - on the beach - with no movement. Fewer variables to deal with.

Best,

Chris

graham christian
07-20-2012, 05:20 PM
I don't know about your kids, by mine fell over more than a few times before they learned to stand up successfully.

A bull fighter or a surfer learns those things - but they are learned skills, that's the point.

How many surfers stand up on the board and shoot the tube the first day? Most of them have to work up to it, over a period of time. Surfing lessons usually start with someone standing up on the board - on the beach - with no movement. Fewer variables to deal with.

Best,

Chris

Don't know about the surfer example, sounds like some 'modern' way of learning. Surfing is learned in the sea.

The kids falling over etc. is once again dealing with motion. They learned the ability to walk. Yet another motion.

You said the point is so much other stuff going on implying that's the more important thing to learn first. If that was the case then the kids had better learn to read and write first and be taught about it before they learn how to walk.

The so much other stuff is learned by disciplining the motions of learning how to walk.

When you turn the corner whilst riding a bicycle there's also so much other stuff going on that I doubt you could even comprehend it so emphasis on it and research and delving is a nice mental exercise but pretty irrelevant for the most part for the bike rider learns by doing and practice, dealing with the motions, in fact blending with them.

The surfer, the bullfighter, the captain of a ship all have to learn to blend with the motions and thus 'conquer' the waves.

That's the platform operated from I would say. Therefor that's the point. The so much other stuff is not the point. They come about because of the point. That's my point;)

Peace.G.

Mary Eastland
07-20-2012, 05:31 PM
Natural learning is not linear. We learn and grow and learn and grow...new skills are incorporated as we train. I believe internal skills can be taught from standing and in motion. Each providing new opportunities to challenge ourselves.

Chris Li
07-20-2012, 06:07 PM
You said the point is so much other stuff going on implying that's the more important thing to learn first. If that was the case then the kids had better learn to read and write first and be taught about it before they learn how to walk.

I didn't say that at all. I said that it's easier to learn something with fewer variables involved. That's why children learn to stand before then learn to walk.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
07-20-2012, 06:11 PM
Natural learning is not linear. We learn and grow and learn and grow...new skills are incorporated as we train. I believe internal skills can be taught from standing and in motion. Each providing new opportunities to challenge ourselves.

Sure, nobody said it's impossible. But, IMO, it's difficult enough that it's not the best way to go, pedagogically. Not every challenge is a good one.

Best,

Chris

Mary Eastland
07-20-2012, 07:36 PM
It is not difficult at all. Just interesting, challenging and fun.

gregstec
07-20-2012, 08:42 PM
Certainly is a lot of talk about joining with, blending with, harmonizing with, and moving with. IMO, it is all about 'With' joining, blending, harmonizing, and moving with me; not me with it!

Aiki in me before aiki between you (with) and me - :)

Greg

RonRagusa
07-20-2012, 09:46 PM
IMO drop the "with" altogether. It's all about blending, harmonizing and moving period. No you, no me, no between.

Ron

Carsten Möllering
07-21-2012, 04:53 AM
I am sorry to interrupt your discussion.
But since nobody more competent stepped in, it is important to me to comment on the mention of Endo sensei.

Aikido is about joining and blending and avoiding.
I don't think that these words are usefull, to describe the aikidō of Endo sensei. And in fact he himself does not use "joining" and "blending" to describe what he does, as far as I see.

He indeed uses "to avoid" sometimes. But it is meant in a different way: It does not refer to evading a movement of uke. Evading is clearly forbidden in sensei saikidō. To avoid in terms of sensei means to absorb (= avoid) the incoming power of uke when contact is made. This is done using one's own body structure.

Endo does not teach a lot about what to do (joining, blending, harmonizing ... ) with uke. He teaches about using, organizing, structuring one's own body. This to him is most important in aikidō. This is what aikidō is about: Learning to organize one's own body and mind.
And waza are possible ways to applie this to an opponent. He clearly distinguishes the "formal waza", which we cal kata or kihon and which can be named. And the waza that emerge spontanouesly when just using one's own body structure, one own movement. uke is "just" someone who helps tori to explore his own body and learn to use it. (This is also important to understand the way of ukemi: Like in a push test your partner is not an attacker, he is not when practicing aikidō in this way.)

To better understand the way Endo thinks about organizing, structuring one's body it is usefull to read about daoistic body work, like qi gong or tai chi or pakua zang. Endo understands his practice as the practice of dao. And he uses the daoist term, expressions, images, to explains what he does. There are strong connections to the chinese internal arts to be found in his teaching and I experienced it to be very important to get familiar with daoist thinking to understand him right.

When it comes to using one's body structure, Endo's aikidō is not about blending, joining, harmonizing, but about meeting the opponent. This is what is contained in the word "atari" (当たり, compare atemi). This video shows a very basic excercise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM-reduvM8k&feature=player_detailpage) to study Endo's understanding of atari. And I think you may get a glimpse of the relationsship between tori and uke in his aikidō. In my eyes this is clearly different from what most aikidōka understand when they talk about blending, joining, harmonizing with ukes movement, isn't it?
Creating atari (= meeting the oppenent) is then used to guide him and to create kuzushi. In this way of aikidō uke is moved by tori. tori does not only controll his own body, but also the body of uke.

You talked about using the shoulders: Well Endo does not use the shoulders or the arms. He instead uses the shoulderblades. This creates a specific feeling and specific possibilities. While the shoulderblades are connected to the spine and the lower body they can move the shoulder in a wayt they seem to be "isolated" or free from the rest of the body. (When you look at the video it sometimes seems that Endo's arms are kind of stiff or muscled. They are not. His arms are competely soft. But there is his lower body "in his arms" via the shoulder blades. Very interesting feeling! You don't have his arms. They are completely relaxed. But at the same time very very strong.)

Again: Sorry for interrupting!

Mary Eastland
07-21-2012, 08:11 AM
I am quite competent, Carsten,. I was not describing Endo, Sensei's aikido. I was describing mine. I saw how Endo Sensei feels. Thanks you for your thoughts.

Carsten Möllering
07-21-2012, 09:52 AM
I am quite competent, Carsten,. I was not describing Endo, Sensei's aikido. I was describing mine. I saw how Endo Sensei feels. Thanks you for your thoughts.
I inteded to refer to more competent students of Endo's aikidō than I am. I didn't mean to question your comptence or someone else's competence concering aikidō in general. I just wantet to clear up the misunderstandings concerning Endo's aikidō.

Do I get you right:
You are able to see, how Endo sensei feels?
Could you elaborate this?
I experienced it very difficult to see, what he is really doing, while only watching him. I on the contrary learned that there is a lot to know until I can see, what he is doing.
And he often esecially explains what he is feeling and how and why. Because it is not self-explanatory or evident.

But you are right: If want knows, what he is doing inside, one can see it on the outside.

Alex Megann
07-22-2012, 02:56 AM
I am sorry to interrupt your discussion.
But since nobody more competent stepped in, it is important to me to comment on the mention of Endo sensei.

I don't think that these words are usefull, to describe the aikidō of Endo sensei. And in fact he himself does not use "joining" and "blending" to describe what he does, as far as I see.

He indeed uses "to avoid" sometimes. But it is meant in a different way: It does not refer to evading a movement of uke. Evading is clearly forbidden in sensei saikidō. To avoid in terms of sensei means to absorb (= avoid) the incoming power of uke when contact is made. This is done using one's own body structure.

Endo does not teach a lot about what to do (joining, blending, harmonizing ... ) with uke. He teaches about using, organizing, structuring one's own body. This to him is most important in aikidō. This is what aikidō is about: Learning to organize one's own body and mind.
And waza are possible ways to applie this to an opponent. He clearly distinguishes the "formal waza", which we cal kata or kihon and which can be named. And the waza that emerge spontanouesly when just using one's own body structure, one own movement. uke is "just" someone who helps tori to explore his own body and learn to use it. (This is also important to understand the way of ukemi: Like in a push test your partner is not an attacker, he is not when practicing aikidō in this way.)

To better understand the way Endo thinks about organizing, structuring one's body it is usefull to read about daoistic body work, like qi gong or tai chi or pakua zang. Endo understands his practice as the practice of dao. And he uses the daoist term, expressions, images, to explains what he does. There are strong connections to the chinese internal arts to be found in his teaching and I experienced it to be very important to get familiar with daoist thinking to understand him right.

When it comes to using one's body structure, Endo's aikidō is not about blending, joining, harmonizing, but about meeting the opponent. This is what is contained in the word "atari" (当たり, compare atemi). This video shows a very basic excercise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM-reduvM8k&feature=player_detailpage) to study Endo's understanding of atari. And I think you may get a glimpse of the relationsship between tori and uke in his aikidō. In my eyes this is clearly different from what most aikidōka understand when they talk about blending, joining, harmonizing with ukes movement, isn't it?
Creating atari (= meeting the oppenent) is then used to guide him and to create kuzushi. In this way of aikidō uke is moved by tori. tori does not only controll his own body, but also the body of uke.

You talked about using the shoulders: Well Endo does not use the shoulders or the arms. He instead uses the shoulderblades. This creates a specific feeling and specific possibilities. While the shoulderblades are connected to the spine and the lower body they can move the shoulder in a wayt they seem to be "isolated" or free from the rest of the body. (When you look at the video it sometimes seems that Endo's arms are kind of stiff or muscled. They are not. His arms are competely soft. But there is his lower body "in his arms" via the shoulder blades. Very interesting feeling! You don't have his arms. They are completely relaxed. But at the same time very very strong.)

Again: Sorry for interrupting!

Where's the "like" button?

Alex

graham christian
07-22-2012, 04:44 PM
Just been doing some more research into Koshi. I usually do it this way funnily enough in that I use a principle and develop it, (or rather develop myself on it) then when I know how pertinent it is I go look it up for by then I know someone somewhere must be using it and that it has history.

The way I have described it I find more on via the web now and the spiritual aspect as I describe I find there in the annuls of okinawa karate and even the flag. Fascinating.

It's all good.

Peace.G.

Gerardo Torres
07-23-2012, 12:57 PM
I would just watch teachers videos, Gerardo. While some things really do have to be felt to understand them, Disconnected movement stares you in the face.
Dan
Hi Dan,

I agree, disconnected vs. connected movement has a distinct visual quality that is recognizable. And the more we train IP and connection the better we're able to see those traits. The hard part is seeing the deficiencies... everywhere (mine included). :D

-Gerardo

Gerardo Torres
07-23-2012, 01:36 PM
Disconnected movement is easy to spot. Endo, Sensei certainly is not disconnected.

I agree that, as Dan mentioned above, one can spot connection or lack thereof. However it's not my place to judge Endo as I've never trained with the man. That said, it's hard to tell as the uke in the video is already collapsing before anything is done to him.

Gerardo. I am talking about a certain exercise movement. I think you might be taking it as I am saying this is the way you must move always. Again, did you try what I am talking about?
It's hard for me to fully visualize the exercise you describe. What I can gather is that you try to maintain a relation between shoulder and hips as you move where shoulders are on top of hips, for example as you turn in response to a frontal push; in the process, you study power transfer to the hands. Yes, there are instances in static drills and solo training where I have studied those connections (Chris Li posted a link about harmonies). For example the Aunkai has drills where one is in Mabu and those connections are trained. Kokyu-dosa could be another instance where one studies that.

When I move in aikido, or weapons, I want to move energy - spiral - so the connections are maintained but the hip-shoulder relationship changes; for example, I could have both hips square but by turning at the waist/center the shoulder can be at certain angles. There are also strategic and technical reasons, especially with weapons, why I would not want to keep shoulders over hips as I move. This is similar to the knee on top of foot relation: if we take it literally, we would lock ourselves in a limited range of positions. Again, I understand you were talking about an exercise, but I personally tend to train in a way that informs all my Budo - a unified theory so to speak, so my body is doing the same thing (spiral) whether I'm doing empty handed aikido, weapons, attacking, defending, etc.

The ability to move the shoulders as a inde[pemdent joint intrigues me. Uriah Faber uses his shoulders to strike when he has his opponent up against the cage. That made me think.
I didn't really mean to use the should independently. Even if the shoulder is at an angle (not on top) wrt hips everything remains connected in order to move energy in the body.

Gerardo Torres
07-23-2012, 01:44 PM
I don't see the movement side of the art as being in any kind of necessary opposition to the internal power / connection side. I really think that taking the basic platform from Daito Ryu and giving it free movement is one of the distinguishing features of the Founder's progression from Daito Ryu, through Aiki Budo, to Aikido. The problem with much post war Aikido was that much of the methodology for the internal side of the art dropped out and what was left was the idea that non-oppositional movement alone was "aiki". Movement Aikido is about avoiding an attack, it isn't "aiki" which is about "joining" not "avoiding".

We do need to focus on developing our own structures properly and understanding how proper connection actually functions. That's the platform. The trick in great Aikido is being able to take that platform and make it movable... at least that's my take on it.
I agree with what you're saying here. The goal is to train that IP/aiki platform, and apply it to our aikido techniques and dynamic movement. The tricky part for me at least is not to regress to disconnected movement, sort of a one step forward, one step backward situation. It's a slow process for me: I have to learn to stand first, then walk, before I can "play" with the IP/aiki platform and put it in full motion.

Mary Eastland
07-23-2012, 05:09 PM
As the hips turns so does the foot...as the hip turns back so does the foot... I thought all that was a given.

Mary Eastland
07-23-2012, 05:14 PM
Do I get you right:
You are able to see, how Endo sensei feels?
Could you elaborate this?
I experienced it very difficult to see, what he is really doing, while only watching him. I on the contrary learned that there is a lot to know until I can see, what he is doing.
And he often esecially explains what he is feeling and how and why. Because it is not self-explanatory or evident.

But you are right: If want knows, what he is doing inside, one can see it on the outside.

I am surprised you can't see how he feels. I can almost feel it. I don't need to have it explained with words. I have seen enough and felt enough to know it.

Can't you feel when someone has lost their center when you are their nage? Can't you feel when you have lost your center when you are nage? Can't you see how one of your students looks when they have lost their center?

Basia Halliop
07-24-2012, 02:40 PM
Sure, but the problem with moving (and this is why O-Sensei didn't teach Ki-no-nagare until San Dan) is that there's so much more stuff happening, so many more variables to account for.

Personally, I don't think that's a universal rule. Some things are easier and simpler with movement -- e.g., riding a moving bike is much easier than making a bike stay in place without moving. For cycling moving is the more basic and fundamental version and staying still is a more advanced skill.

Some things are simpler stationary, some things are simpler moving, some things neither is more basic, they're just different.

Chris Li
07-24-2012, 03:01 PM
Personally, I don't think that's a universal rule. Some things are easier and simpler with movement -- e.g., riding a moving bike is much easier than making a bike stay in place without moving. For cycling moving is the more basic and fundamental version and staying still is a more advanced skill.

Some things are simpler stationary, some things are simpler moving, some things neither is more basic, they're just different.

Of course, there are always going to be exceptions, but I don't think that really addresses the problem of pedagogy for most people.

With pedagogical discussions ithere's always someone who says "well this guy learned better the other way" - and they'd be right, in a way, because it's always possible to come up with a counter example of someone who learned was successful with a different pedagogy.

OTOH, if you're discussing what works best for the most people in the most cases - it's a different discussion.

Best,

Chris

Carsten Möllering
07-26-2012, 12:30 PM
I am surprised you can't see how he feels. I can almost feel it. I don't need to have it explained with words. I have seen enough and felt enough to know it.

We have breathing excercises I've trained since I practice aikidō. I only understood what's in them when I began to practice a certain form of qi gong. What can be seen from the outside is exactly the same. What happens inside is completely different.

I have a student who is very sensitive, very responsive. I practice with him when I study some stuff I can not yet do with a resisting partner and want to monitor myself.
About two weeks ago we did the "hand at the shoulder" stuff like in the video of Endo sensei. I didn't move on the outside, but I could make my uke loose his balance. By doing something like spiralling. Then by doing something like closing. Then by something like connecting from my center two his center visualizing the connectiong from joint to joint. Then by rotating my shoulder from the shoulder blade. Then by "moving my center up into my shoulder".
A student who started aikidō with me together asked: "Are you doing anything?"
A friend of mine who knows that I am endophil said: "Well, I assume he just applying atari again ;-)"

I have clearly not seen as much and not felt as much like you. When I met Endo I realized that there is something to learn that was different. And that could not be stolen just with the eyes. And by now I can asure you, that there are certain things to be learned to understand what he does. And the chinese stuff is part of this.

Can't you feel ... ?
Can't you see ... ?
I can see what I know.

graham christian
07-26-2012, 04:55 PM
We could add hips and centre, hips and feet, hips and knees, hips and centre line etc. Upper and lower body.

I like the upper and lower body differentiation personally. For example you can have the hips turning one way whilst the upper body turns the other.

In fact I would say that a lot eventually is done from the lower, the koshi, leaving those looking at the hands and upper body movement bewildered as to what's being done.

Peace.G.

DH
07-27-2012, 01:22 PM
As the hips turns so does the foot...as the hip turns back so does the foot... I thought all that was a given.
Actually, that is the one of the best ways to get thrown. It is unfortunate to see so many teachers who still move from the hips, cut from the hips, tie their knees to the hip and their feet to their knees....even "internal power teachers" wobbling on their knees and feet, and.....
All of whom are still absolutely convinced....that they move from their center.
All of which lasts about one minute into meeting someone who actually does.

I was having this discussion with some senior aikido people recently. You could line up a parade of senior Japanese Shihan and one-by-one demonstrate their structural flaws in both movement and how they engage an uke. Moreover, I could get most everyone who has trained and felt ...moving from center, to be able to see it as well. Watching big shot Masters and their own body's reaction to load, and their ukes delayed responses to their movement tells a story of a work in progress, not anything high level as a final model.
As one ICMA Master class teacher said once regarding Dantian and moving from center:
"You cannot pretend to know Dantian. You will be found out by those who do."

Presumption abounds. What I see in Budo, over and over, is a whole lot of people who really don't know much, going off and fooling a lot of people who know less. The internet is worse, where we see so much writing by unqualified people (even shihan) on subjects they actually know little about, engaged in lengthy discussions on things that will not help. Not even one bit.

So far, I have not seen a single person from here, appearing on a video moving from or connecting to anyone..........using their center well at all. I know that it is an unpopular thing to say, but so far...none of you have proved me wrong. Truth and "real soft power" from center is the way we should all be going. Thinking everyone has some skill or some thing that will help, or that we are all equal...is a fools game that only serves to hamper real progress. At some point we need to realize that there is an actual truth and way to both train and do this stuff that is testable.
Dan

Mary Eastland
07-27-2012, 02:04 PM
Guess what? Dan, I disagree with you. I bet that is a surprse. :). .I hope you are having a lovely summer and all. We are having a seminar the first weekend of August...maybe its time to dig out your hakama.

DH
07-27-2012, 03:49 PM
Guess what? Dan, I disagree with you. I bet that is a surprse. :). .I hope you are having a lovely summer and all. We are having a seminar the first weekend of August...maybe its time to dig out your hakama.
Mary
I don't mind that you or Ron disagree. I think you guys are great people.
I would love to come train -with- you guys, but I am teaching my own seminar that weekend.
I remain convinced that were we to meet and train we would laugh, have great fun and hopefully...hopefully, agree on things and maybe become friends. ;)

I could send you my schedule and see if we can find some time to play. Dinner will be on me!!
All the best
Dan

Jim Sorrentino
07-27-2012, 04:21 PM
So far, I have not seen a single person from here, appearing on a video moving from or connecting to anyone..........using their center well at all.
So post a video which you believe shows these things. It doesn't have to be you ;), although given that it's AikiWeb, it would be helpful if you could select a video of an aikidoka. Pre-WWII, post-WWII, Japanese, non-Japanese, teacher, student... Are you positive that you have not seen even one example on film?

Jim

hughrbeyer
07-27-2012, 05:30 PM
Seems to me I've seen Dan say good things about some short, bald Japanese guy... dunno if you'd call him exactly an aikidoka, though. :rolleyes:

mathewjgano
07-27-2012, 05:43 PM
Seems to me I've seen Dan say good things about some short, bald Japanese guy... dunno if you'd call him exactly an aikidoka, though. :rolleyes:

Sounds familiar, but I don't think he posts here. :D

graham christian
07-27-2012, 07:37 PM
I wonder why some experts can't see. Mmmmm.

I also wonder if they know to any great degree weight underside and what that would look like.

I hear about connecting centre but not much about connecting space or even energy so I daren't mention connecting koshi....Whoops:)

Peace.G.

DH
07-29-2012, 07:58 AM
So post a video which you believe shows these things. It doesn't have to be you ;), although given that it's AikiWeb, it would be helpful if you could select a video of an aikidoka. Pre-WWII, post-WWII, Japanese, non-Japanese, teacher, student... Are you positive that you have not seen even one example on film?

Jim
Actually, Jim I never said what you are alluding to here. Could you take the time to read what I said and make a response or question based on that and not your own all inclusive "version" of what you think I said?
Off hand and off topic and in no particular order of importance we have; Ueshiba, Inue, Tohei, Shioda, Shirata, Mochizuki, Tomiki. Then, Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa, etc. I am sure I missed people.
What does that have to do with what I actually did say?
Dan

Jim Sorrentino
07-29-2012, 12:29 PM
I thought we were in the middle of a discussion of movement involving the hips and shoulders and the relationship of that kind of movement to movement of, and/or from the center/dantien. There was an attempt to use a video of Endo-sensei to facilitate this discussion. You stated:
Actually, that is the one of the best ways to get thrown. It is unfortunate to see so many teachers who still move from the hips, cut from the hips, tie their knees to the hip and their feet to their knees....even "internal power teachers" wobbling on their knees and feet, and.....
All of whom are still absolutely convinced....that they move from their center. [snip of implicit self-aggrandizing comments]

[snip of reference to anonymous aikido "authorities"] You could line up a parade of senior Japanese Shihan and one-by-one demonstrate their structural flaws in both movement and how they engage an uke. Moreover, I could get most everyone who has trained and felt ...moving from center, to be able to see it as well. Watching big shot Masters and their own body's reaction to load, and their ukes delayed responses to their movement tells a story of a work in progress, not anything high level as a final model. [snip of another reference to an anonymous authority, this one from internal Chinese arts]

[snip of explicit self-aggrandizing comments]

So far, I have not seen a single person from here, appearing on a video moving from or connecting to anyone..........using their center well at all. [Emphasis supplied] [snip of yet more self-aggrandizing comments] Truth and "real soft power" from center is the way we should all be going. [snip of irrelevant straw man argument] At some point we need to realize that there is an actual truth and way to both train and do this stuff that is testable.
In response to your comment above, which I placed in bold type, I asked you to post a video of an aikidoka which shows a good example of that aikidoka moving from or connecting to anyone..........using their center well at all.Please explain how my request was not a reasonable response to what you wrote --- and please remember to post a video that responds to my request. :D

Jim

Anthony Loeppert
07-29-2012, 01:14 PM
So post a video which you believe shows these things. It doesn't have to be you
Jim

If only Dan would step on our collective toes causing the tops of our heads to pop open. Then he could dump in his wisdom.

Instead we have to rely on youtube I suppose:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8d...mNBNXlfNmE3b2M

It is odd though, someone so adept at criticizing the videos of others, would be so shy posting videos of himself.

DH
07-29-2012, 01:26 PM
I thought we were in the middle of a discussion of movement involving the hips and shoulders and the relationship of that kind of movement to movement of, and/or from the center/dantien. There was an attempt to use a video of Endo-sensei to facilitate this discussion. You stated:

In response to your comment above, which I placed in bold type, I asked you to post a video of an aikidoka which shows a good example of that aikidoka Please explain how my request was not a reasonable response to what you wrote --- and please remember to post a video that responds to my request. :D

Jim
Very simple Jim
I was responding to Mary, not anything to do with Endo.
And my comment was limted to those from aikiweb posting-not the conflated comment about all people ever involved with Aikido throughout history; pre and post war as you stated.
Dan

DH
07-29-2012, 01:41 PM
If only Dan would step on our collective toes causing the tops of our heads to pop open. Then he could dump in his wisdom.

Instead we have to rely on youtube I suppose:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8d...mNBNXlfNmE3b2M

It is odd though, someone so adept at criticizing the videos of others, would be so shy posting videos of himself.
I didn't get the you tube link to work but anyhoo.....
It is actually conveniant to keep targeting individuals, Anthony. It keeps the community from stepping up to the real truth that this material is ages old, out there in other cultures and their arts, and your own founder discussed and pointed to it and could do it, and that the majority of you missed it.

The personal targeting of me only works on the internet, as the truth of what I am saying is much greater than just a single voice. Moreover that it speaks for itself in person with people who both understand the work Ueshiba wrote about and can do it. It is not about a single person or personality; it is about a body of work that produces soft power and aiki. Which explains the growing skills of a myriad of folks who stepped up to the truth of Ueshiba's legacy. Unfortunately, that means you have to target an ever growing number of teachers. Not so easy to so when the numbers keep growing.

You can castigate the information dump as you will, but your shihans and senior teachers are still stumped and will remain stumped until they embrace the truth. There is no out, no hall pass and no...you are not going to get an "A" standing next to someone who does get Ueshiba's work. It is as bold and undeniable in person as that. The internet is sounding more and more like sour grapes.... as in person everyone keeps failing against it then switching to training it.
Most any other endevour would embrace that success. But budo is rarely about truth or success over factionalism and rank and affiliation.
Dan

graham christian
07-29-2012, 02:01 PM
Generalities, generalities......:( They are so boring.

I use 'invisible' shoulders that feel like the centre of kokyu and hips that make you feel like a moving mountain.

Peace. G.

Mary Eastland
07-29-2012, 02:13 PM
Can you talk more about invisible shoulders, Graham?

Jim Sorrentino
07-29-2012, 02:18 PM
Very simple Jim
I was responding to Mary, not anything to do with Endo.
And my comment was limted to those from aikiweb posting-not the conflated comment about all people ever involved with Aikido throughout history; pre and post war as you stated.
DanBut in your response that you state was aimed at Mary, you go on to refer to "internal power teachers", "senior Japanese Shihan", and "big shot Masters" who don't move from/with the center (in your opinion). If you want to split hairs and now claim that when you said "from here," you were referring only to videos of people posting in this particular thread on AikiWeb, fine. I ask again that to further the discussion, you post a video of an aikidoka moving from, or connecting to someone, using his or her center well. It doesn't have to be someone participating in this discussion, or even still alive. It would be nice if you could use one of someone other than Ueshiba Morihei. It would be terrific if it were someone non-Japanese (and again, it doesn't have to be you). ;)

Jim

graham christian
07-29-2012, 02:49 PM
Can you talk more about invisible shoulders, Graham?

Sure. From the practice of weight underside and relaxing completely you find your shoulders disappear, become inconsequential. The same also applies to sword work.

So I find that even the thought of using shoulder has a subtle detrimental effect and I would say the greatest detrimental effect is on centre line.

So in conclusion I say they should have no resistance in them and so when you move someone back who is pushing your shoulder the the illusion is that you are using your shoulder. Actually I let go of my shoulder, turn back around centre line.

A good exercise I get people to do is having someone push through their shoulder. They are to let it go, not resist, and allow the upper body to rotate around centre line. This can then be moved on to letting it go and allowing the upper body to rotate and then rotating it back in the opposite direction. (back to original position.)

The only thing that get's in the way is the persons own mind and thus more masakatsu agatsu.

The main principles are thus letting go and keeping centre line (neutral) and acceptance (centre).

That's my boiled down explanation without going into energy.

Peace.G.

Anthony Loeppert
07-29-2012, 03:29 PM
I didn't get the you tube link to work but anyhoo.....
It is actually conveniant to keep targeting individuals, Anthony. It keeps the community from stepping up to the real truth that this material is ages old, out there in other cultures and their arts, and your own founder discussed and pointed to it and could do it, and that the majority of you missed it.


Sorry the link didn't work. It was simply a screen capture searching for your name on YouTube. The point being nothing relevant shows up. My gripe i have with your message is simply if you have criticism please post something to compare against.


The internet is sounding more and more like sour grapes.... as in person everyone keeps failing against it then switching to training it.
Most any other endevour would embrace that success.
Dan

To embrace one would first have to observe, correct?

Just as an aside,
I don't know why others come to this site, but i don't come here for technical instruction.
If you have to goto the internet for that, time to change schools.

mathewjgano
07-29-2012, 04:30 PM
I don't know if I'm helping here, and I apologize if I'm just adding to the distraction, but here's what I have to offer:
I've included hyperlinks to the quote I took of Dan's. I don't know how he could get more clear in expressing how some folks in Aikido do/did indeed express the aiki he talks about (which relates to how to connect and use the hips and shoulders). His argument seems to be that somewhere in the huge expansion of Aikido, the internal methods/relationships were generally missed or otherwise not brought to the forefront. If the internal relationships aren't present or aren't present enough, I can see how understanding things like hip and shoulder relationships might be hit-or-miss, or might not be as well understood as "should" be...of course "should" will also depend on inividual standards and people are entitled to whatever standards they want. Recognizing we will each have our own metrics involved, let's appreciate honest opinions given for their honest intent. Even if an opinion is wrong I don't believe it matters much. All that matters is how we approach our own training and an honest opinion given is yet one more area for us to consider on our own path, whatever it may be.
...we have; Ueshiba, Inue (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko0zTHgaRik), Tohei (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J04JI48GzPM), Shioda (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj0TgZTs2cg), Shirata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJk663rZajg), Mochizuki (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMOI7o-Vehg), Tomiki (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZw-pw0U3sk). Then, Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa, etc. I am sure I missed people.

I'm adding this video of Gleason Sensei, not because of any clue I may or may not have about what it demonstrates, but because I know he's trained in the way Dan is talking about. This video is about 3 years old though so I have no idea how representative it is. However, I really like the first part which I think shows some interesting "shoulder" application.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMRxbSoal-0
Sincerely,
Matt
p.s. I'm adding this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-zyIQFivYA) video also because I think it provides a great description and example to observe...although, again, I'm very ignorant so make no claim of understanding what I'm seeing.

graham christian
07-29-2012, 04:58 PM
Nice video Matthew.

Peace.G.

Gorgeous George
07-29-2012, 05:32 PM
Can you talk more about invisible shoulders, Graham?

There's been a lot of amazing stuff posted here over the years, but I think this is the best post i've ever seen.

gregstec
07-29-2012, 07:56 PM
I don't know if I'm helping here, and I apologize if I'm just adding to the distraction, but here's what I have to offer:
I've included hyperlinks to the quote I took of Dan's. I don't know how he could get more clear in expressing how some folks in Aikido do/did indeed express the aiki he talks about (which relates to how to connect and use the hips and shoulders). His argument seems to be that somewhere in the huge expansion of Aikido, the internal methods/relationships were generally missed or otherwise not brought to the forefront. If the internal relationships aren't present or aren't present enough, I can see how understanding things like hip and shoulder relationships might be hit-or-miss, or might not be as well understood as "should" be...of course "should" will also depend on inividual standards and people are entitled to whatever standards they want. Recognizing we will each have our own metrics involved, let's appreciate honest opinions given for their honest intent. Even if an opinion is wrong I don't believe it matters much. All that matters is how we approach our own training and an honest opinion given is yet one more area for us to consider on our own path, whatever it may be.

I'm adding this video of Gleason Sensei, not because of any clue I may or may not have about what it demonstrates, but because I know he's trained in the way Dan is talking about. This video is about 3 years old though so I have no idea how representative it is. However, I really like the first part which I think shows some interesting "shoulder" application.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMRxbSoal-0
Sincerely,
Matt
p.s. I'm adding this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-zyIQFivYA) video also because I think it provides a great description and example to observe...although, again, I'm very ignorant so make no claim of understanding what I'm seeing.

Good example of a non-Japanese senior Aikidoka with connection - it is all in the video for those that know what to look for. Absolutely no one else looks the same as Bill after the first half turns to a group session; everyone else is trying to mimic Bill's movements by blending externally with uke; no one else has any internal connection to start with. This video is three years old; Bill is even more connected today :)

Greg

SeiserL
07-30-2012, 07:46 AM
However, I really like the first part which I think shows some interesting "shoulder" application. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMRxbSoal-0

Gleason Sensei does provide an interesting illustration.

Much of which I would not visually see if I had not kinesthetically felt in person.

NathanMishler
07-30-2012, 08:05 AM
But not so much hips! Recently when training with Gleason Sensei in DC, he said

"One of the biggest problems Aikidoka have is that they still think that they move with their hips! NO. You move from hara."

That was almost an aside in a one hour training session, so I've been trying to figure out what that means. However, by moving my center of thought from my hips to this point above them, and moving that (with a tightening of the abs, too) I seem to be getting some interesting movements happening.

Now as to weather or not those are correct movements or not, time and training will tell.

Hellis
07-30-2012, 08:07 AM
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:

Can you talk more about invisible shoulders, Graham?

There's been a lot of amazing stuff posted here over the years, but I think this is the best post i've ever seen.

+ 1
I was going to add five stars *****

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/

Mary Eastland
07-30-2012, 08:53 AM
Henry and Graham...you wouldn't be making fun of me would you?

Gary David
07-30-2012, 10:48 AM
But not so much hips! Recently when training with Gleason Sensei in DC, he said

"One of the biggest problems Aikidoka have is that they still think that they move with their hips! NO. You move from hara."

That was almost an aside in a one hour training session, so I've been trying to figure out what that means. However, by moving my center of thought from my hips to this point above them, and moving that (with a tightening of the abs, too) I seem to be getting some interesting movements happening.

Now as to weather or not those are correct movements or not, time and training will tell.

It is my understanding that hips can't move themselves, rather have to move as part of a chain of movement that starts with the legs or somewhere else. The appearance is that that hips move as the most visible aspect of larger circles....the larger hip movement that is generally called turning from the hips. To me smaller circles are initiated somewhere else with the legs joining in to some degree and possibly little or no movement visible through the hips...

As for moving from points above the hips, I would rather sink down into my core and turn from there...with the hips following at some point. Raising the center is one of the ways that you destablize others so why take that chance with yourself?

just my thoughts
Gary

Hellis
07-30-2012, 11:06 AM
Henry and Graham...you wouldn't be making fun of me would you?

Would I be so bold ?

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Keith Larman
07-30-2012, 11:21 AM
It is my understanding that hips can't move themselves, rather have to move as part of a chain of movement that starts with the legs or somewhere else. The appearance is that that hips move as the most visible aspect of larger circles....the larger hip movement that is generally called turning from the hips. To me smaller circles are initiated somewhere else with the legs joining in to some degree and possibly little or no movement visible through the hips...

As for moving from points above the hips, I would rather sink down into my core and turn from there...with the hips following at some point. Raising the center is one of the ways that you destablize others so why take that chance with yourself?

just my thoughts
Gary

Yah, been working on this myself. We are a bunch of tight-assed people. We turn like stiff cylinders rather than like the complicated articulated mechanisms we really are. I keep flashing on hearing Toby talk about "pulling" the body forward from the front foot in a sword movement. I've spent a lot of time thinking about that. Then guys like Dan and Mike on how to turn. It isn't this stiff turning but one hip opening, the other closing, one knee opening, the other closing, and so on throughout the body. A coordinated use of *everything*, all at once, maintaining a larger integrity, balance and orientation. The "power" comes from everywhere and nowhere at once. And done correctly the point of "connection" is really, well, everywhere... Then the problem is integrating this completely in to all movement.

And that's just the beginning... It sure changes perspective.

Still trying to grok it myself. And more importantly... To just be able to do it.

Me, I like to watch Kuroda moving. I like watching some of the Gracies. And on and on... Or watching an animal run in slow motion. Or watching an Olympic athlete moving in slow motion. Everything works together, but not stiffly, not "solidly", but connected throughout and fluidly powerful...

We need a better vocabulary and model to talk about this stuff...

Gary David
07-30-2012, 12:00 PM
I keep flashing on hearing Toby talk about "pullin" the body forward from the front foot in a sword movement. I've spent a lot of time thinking about that....

Pushing off the back foot tends to raise the center...... You can destabilize yourself

Common terms and descriptions come out of meeting together ........ Not much of that happening....

Gary

Keith Larman
07-30-2012, 12:42 PM
Pushing off the back foot tends to raise the center...... You can destabilize yourself

Common terms and descriptions come out of meeting together ........ Not much of that happening....

Gary

Not pushing off the back foot, but connecting to the ground through the back foot, allowing the back hip to open as the front hip closes and you move forward without rising or falling... If that makes any sense...

Gary David
07-30-2012, 01:18 PM
Not pushing off the back foot, but connecting to the ground through the back foot, allowing the back hip to open as the front hip closes and you move forward without rising or falling... If that makes any sense...

Keith

Works for me and is how I think....... But a whole lot of pushing off the back foot goes on..... I see it all the time.

You know that Jack Dempsey used to drop from the front foot to generate his very powerful and effect jabs.... Interesting to figure out how he did that and how to make it work, if it fits, with what is being worked on now......

Gary

Keith Larman
07-30-2012, 01:25 PM
The exercise I was talking about wrt to Toby you're moving forward against pressure by pulling forward from the front foot. Sinking forward while retaining structure and balance is how my brain wraps around it. Interesting exercise to say the least.

Mary Eastland
07-30-2012, 01:31 PM
Would I be so bold ?

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Would we call it bold?

Mary Eastland
07-30-2012, 01:44 PM
But not so much hips! Recently when training with Gleason Sensei in DC, he said

That was almost an aside in a one hour training session, so I've been trying to figure out what that means. However, by moving my center of thought from my hips to this point above them, and moving that (with a tightening of the abs, too) I seem to be getting some interesting movements happening.

Now as to weather or not those are correct movements or not, time and training will tell.

Last time I checked my center was in the area between my hips. :) No tightening is necessary... any tightening means you are using muscle....relax, relax and then relax some more. :D

mathewjgano
07-30-2012, 02:10 PM
Good example of a non-Japanese senior Aikidoka with connection - it is all in the video for those that know what to look for. Absolutely no one else looks the same as Bill after the first half turns to a group session; everyone else is trying to mimic Bill's movements by blending externally with uke; no one else has any internal connection to start with. This video is three years old; Bill is even more connected today :)

Greg

Gleason Sensei does provide an interesting illustration.

Much of which I would not visually see if I had not kinesthetically felt in person.

But not so much hips...I've been trying to figure out what that means. However, by moving my center of thought from my hips to this point above them, and moving that (with a tightening of the abs, too) I seem to be getting some interesting movements happening.

Cool! I just figured out the obvious "multi-quote" function. I'm so quick, lol!
I'm still in the process of reading his book on Kototama and it's a very interesting read...one I find I have reread each passage as I go.
What stands out to my largely untrained eye is what seems to be very strong vertical musubi, upon which his body is stacked, so that when a force comes into it, it's already resting on a kind of central pillar. Again, I make no claims of "real" or functional understanding, but the conceptual framework I've been trying to learn places a huge emphasis on this relaxed-but-extended vertical connection, around which everything seems to depend. I recently read Rob John as describing the need to translate incoming force into the naturally strong vertical load-bearing qualities of the body. This seems to relate to what I've come to think of as the need to be able to "stand up" into the attack, which comes from my meager understanding of vertical musubi (connection of Heaven and Earth within the mind and body) as taught to me by my teacher.
The shoulder girdle (and hips), being the points through which the limbs access the spine's (essentially) vertical load pathway, seems to be pretty important to establishing strong vertical musubi as it relates to any interaction with the arms. Being that they're ball-socket joints, too, they trade stability for maneuverability so I would guess them to be great places for problems in handling large loads. Fortunately they're wrapped in layers of connective tissues which can help bear the loads, not unlike rope, which when symetrically wrapped around itself, becomes very strong.
Of course, these are largely guesses on my part. I am not even a shodan and am just returning to something resembling "serious" (i.e. consistent) practice. None of this is meant to be representative of a good understanding of anything. I do not wish to misrepresent my teacher, nor do I want to give the impression to anyone that I know what I'm talking about. This is just me sharing my personal haphazard thoughts (and at this point they certainly are that) in the hopes that people who know better can help me fill in the holes or give other ideas to consider.
...Anyhow, for whatever it may be worth.
Take care,
Matt
The exercise I was talking about wrt to Toby you're moving forward against pressure by pulling forward from the front foot.
That's very interesting! It reminds me a bit of what I've been playing with. One moment in particular I kept getting stuck while trying to do ikkyo and when I thought about my feet moving similar to that, it became MUCH easier. Not sure if it exactly relates, but that's interesting. Thank you to both Keith and Gary for sharing your thinking! It seems to make a lot of sense to me; I'll have to try and be more mindful of that the next time I'm on the mat and see what I get.

Gary David
07-30-2012, 02:11 PM
The exercise I was talking about wrt to Toby you're moving forward against pressure by pulling forward from the front foot. Sinking forward while retaining structure and balance is how my brain wraps around it. Interesting exercise to say the least.

Keith
A Clodig thing also....
Gary

gregstec
07-30-2012, 02:54 PM
What stands out to my largely untrained eye is what seems to be very strong vertical musubi, upon which his body is stacked, so that when a force comes into it, it's already resting on a kind of central pillar. Again, I make no claims of "real" or functional understanding, but the conceptual framework I've been trying to learn places a huge emphasis on this relaxed-but-extended vertical connection, around which everything seems to depend.

It is not just in the vertical; it is in the horizontal as well - through in a little spiral energy and you got it everywhere all at once - makes for a nicely balanced (read here aiki) body) :)

Greg

mathewjgano
07-30-2012, 03:06 PM
It is not just in the vertical; it is in the horizontal as well - through in a little spiral energy and you got it everywhere all at once - makes for a nicely balanced (read here aiki) body) :)

Greg

It's that everywhere all at once thing I have a hard time with...no wait...it's the parts of it too.:D

Keith Larman
07-30-2012, 04:05 PM
It is not just in the vertical; it is in the horizontal as well - through in a little spiral energy and you got it everywhere all at once - makes for a nicely balanced (read here aiki) body) :)

Greg

For me one has to consider also how that vertical stack is held together and doesn't get compromised. So lots going on to keep the integrity of something apparently so simple. FWIW.

Abasan
07-30-2012, 04:26 PM
I think it's more of 'originating' movement of the arms and legs from the center instead of from the shoulders and hips... And then later, not so much of 'originating' but just a single central line floating. Hands and legs floating too. Can't muscle something that floats, and can't muscle a sword either.

robin_jet_alt
07-30-2012, 04:43 PM
Not pushing off the back foot, but connecting to the ground through the back foot, allowing the back hip to open as the front hip closes and you move forward without rising or falling... If that makes any sense...

it sounds like we have been working on a lot of the same stuff lately. Particularly pulling yourself forward from your front foot. I've found it has made my kokyu throws much more effective.

DH
07-30-2012, 05:07 PM
The admonition that your center was three fingers below your navel or "between your hips" is wrong for martial arts.

So, enough already......
There are a number of world famous experts in the Japanese arts out there in public teaching internal power and aiki. You know them, you know who I am talking about. Ask them the following;

1. Questions
Three inches below navel
1. For energy why would that point matter?
2. For power and making aiki why would it not matter much at all?
3. What is your center connected to?
4. How?
5. What makes it matter?
6. Where is the bottom?
7. Where is the top?
8. Where is back?
9. Where is the front?
10. how do you train to make *it* move as the driver and NOT the hips?
11. Why...is that a better way to move and important?
12. What are five important principles in play that effect the expression of it?

Ask for detailed answers and to be taught.

2.Results
What you are going to discover is one or several of the following;
a. They really don't know the answers
b. They wont tell you the answer
c. They know some, not all
d. They have no clue how to actually teach what they do
e. They don't care to teach you

3. Conclusions
a. If.........they don't know?
b. Why....don't they know?
After all is said and done
c. Why don't you know?
d. Why do you feel like most every other Tom, Dick and Harry on the planet?
e. When, where and how, do you propose to make a difference toward excellence in your budo? More Kata?


Secondarily, I would add that there are valid teachings that are partially (and only partially) true and others that are more complete. Therefore getting *some* results from one practice and using it to validate *all* of that practice as deep...is a huge pitfall.

Dan

Gerardo Torres
07-30-2012, 05:22 PM
Sorry to slightly diverge from the hip/shoulder discussion but...

Recently I've been put in a role where I have to help some fellow practitioners in their training, which is making me think hard about what I say or do in front of them. :) I've found that explaining movement (displacement) from the perspective of either front foot or back foot, could imply -- even if it's not meant that way -- that the "other" foot has a diminished or independent role. I prefer the approach where for example if I want to step forward or backwards, both feet/leg/kua are doing something; more specifically, they are doing the same thing but in opposite directions, which combined with whole body connection allows one to "move from the center". Dan has shared some drills that are amazingly good at helping stabilize hips and move from center. This was a game changer for me, and it's great to see some of my fellow practitioners who've struggled for years starting to fix things in a matter of minutes when they follow this model.

graham christian
07-30-2012, 05:26 PM
Everything has a centre. It has no bottom or top or front etc.

Must be a bagua type thing your referring to I would say.

Peace.G.

DH
07-30-2012, 05:30 PM
Sorry to slightly diverge from the hip/shoulder discussion but...

Recently I've been put in a role where I had to help some fellow practitioners in their training, which is making me think hard about what I say or do in front of them. :) I've found that explaining movement (displacement) from the perspective of either front foot or back foot, could imply -- even if it's not meant that way -- that the "other" foot has a diminished or independent role. I prefer the approach where for example if I want to step forward or backwards, both feet/leg/kua are doing something; more specifically, they are doing the same thing but in opposite directions, which combined with whole body connection allows one to "move from the center". Dan has shared some drills that are amazingly good at helping stabilize hips and move from center. This was a game changer for me, and it's great to see some of my fellow practitioners who've struggled for years starting to fix things in a matter of minutes when they follow this model.
Thanks Gerardo. I just want to point out that it isn't my own.
It is certainly a way to both generate soft power, in big weapons but also remain stable and powerful in any art. Moving any other way. ANY OTHER WAY...is simply less efficient and inferior. Provably inferior.
And that...is that.

One after the other, over and over, time and time again.....Aikido teachers of all rank fail to deliver against......Ueshiba's way of moving.
Ueshiba was right.
Oh well.
Dan

Janet Rosen
07-30-2012, 06:46 PM
When I started having to do kokyudosa sitting crosslegged rather than in seiza I learned in-the-body by necessity the difference between "moving hips" (which I cannot do when planted cross-legged) and "moving center" (which I've been working on moving more effectively for some time and still can't the way I want...but doing slow partnered kokyudosa is a wonderful training tool for it).

DH
07-30-2012, 08:54 PM
Sorry the link didn't work. It was simply a screen capture searching for your name on YouTube. The point being nothing relevant shows up. My gripe i have with your message is simply if you have criticism please post something to compare against.
Hello Sir
I am not griping. I am stating facts that I support with my body...in open rooms with shihans in Aikido and MMA guys-who would like nothing more than to prove me wrong.

The internet is the only place there is any debate, as it is the only place the detractors of this material have any sort of voice. In person, they all fail; one after the other, after the other, on and on, month after month, year after year. It's surreal that there is any argument left since so far they have a 100% failure rate. In most sciences, sports, and work environments, that would force a change.
Budo rarely concerns itself with truth or efficiency; it's about kata, preservation and rank. So they simply fail because they fail to really learn and grow. It's just the way it is. Every couple of generations some amazing men (yes Mary, it's been men) show up and shake things up...that's about it. And most of the ones that show up...are outside of traditions or on the fringes, until they start their own.
So, if history is any judge, we migh start looking for the next giants...on the fringes of budo, or outside of budo alltogether. History tells us that there is a good chance- that is where they will be.

Here is a tip
Don't look to authority for truth
Look to truth for Authority
You will be far better off in the end.
Video
I have no interest in video on how to do this stuff. It is difficult to teach with personal instruction so why put up video that others can stink up the place with, by mimicing movement that they show little understanding of, hence nothing on You Tube
To embrace one would first have to observe, correct?
No...one needs to feel and to learn...not observe something they do not understand. In regards to moving from center, and having internal power and aiki? That brings you quickly back to zero...where most budo people are in my opinion
Just as an aside,
I don't know why others come to this site, but i don't come here for technical instruction.
If you have to go to the internet for that, time to change schools.
I think you might find that Aikiweb has become the best site on the web to get information on where to find people teaching this material in Aikido. And that is only one reason people come here. Most come for regular Aikido until they discover what aiki was and is and how to train it.
Dan

Chris Li
07-30-2012, 09:01 PM
Video
I have no interest in video on how to do this stuff. It is difficult to teach with personal instruction so why put up video that others can stink up the place with, by mimicing movement that they show little understanding of, hence nothing on You Tube


Plenty of video of O-Sensei floating around - but it doesn't seem to have made it any easier for anybody to get what he was doing.

I just wish that this stuff were easy enough to pick up from watching a video!

Best,

Chris

DH
07-30-2012, 09:08 PM
Plenty of video of O-Sensei floating around - but it doesn't seem to have made it any easier for anybody to get what he was doing.

I just wish that this stuff were easy enough to pick up from watching a video!

Best,

Chris
Yup, and many others. Of course we have the ICMA showing and *supposedly* teaching it.. and still...most simply do not do the work. :rolleyes:

Anthony Loeppert
07-31-2012, 02:29 AM
The internet is the only place there is any debate, as it is the only place the detractors of this material have any sort of voice.


I haven't engaged in a debate. I did make a request for more information in the form of a...


Video
I have no interest in video on how to do this stuff. It is difficult to teach with personal instruction so why put up video that others can stink up the place with, by mimicing movement that they show little understanding of, hence nothing on You Tube

No...one needs to feel and to learn...not observe something they do not understand.


Well I guess most endeavors could start with an observation of something not understood which then sparks an interest to dig further. Understanding the 'how' and recognizing 'something' interesting is happening are two different things.


I think you might find that Aikiweb has become the best site on the web to get information on where to find people teaching this material in Aikido. And that is only one reason people come here. Most come for regular Aikido until they discover what aiki was and is and how to train it.
Dan

I don't speak Aikikai so well and many simply invent terminology anyway so it is frustrating to me. It seems simpler to concentrate on the (Yoshinkan) basic movements on the mat and shoot the breeze in the open discussions area. Perhaps my outlook will change in the future.

I enjoyed the videos of Bill Gleason, and I've seen a few others of him before. But when he starts talking about fire and water I get lost.

Regards,
Anthony

mrlizard123
07-31-2012, 03:31 AM
I enjoyed the videos of Bill Gleason, and I've seen a few others of him before. But when he starts talking about fire and water I get lost.

Regards,
Anthony

This (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-04-08/aikido-and-the-floating-bridge-of-heaven) might help with the fire and water references... then again, it might not depending on our preconceptions and other understandings.

At least it might point a bit more in the right direction, though getting hands on people really is the best way forwards in expanding our understanding, without which our preconceptions can lead us down a wrong path; makes me think of Plato's allegory of the cave in many ways.

DH
07-31-2012, 06:33 AM
On video:
Well I guess most endeavors could start with an observation of something not understood which then sparks an interest to dig further. Understanding the 'how' and recognizing 'something' interesting is happening are two different things.
Well, years of watching this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=XoDK3XuvZWw) and feeling it and seeing it...haven't helped many people has it?
Care to read and meet all of the people who are stupified at why the all the pushing tests he showed even mattered?

Understanding why he was doing those push tests and what they really conveyed is like talking a foreign language to teachers who...oddly enough, themselves, just feel like anyone else on the street. It's all just a mystery to them. After all is said and done we end up with teachers with little to no connection....doing kata, and they still don't know why and how to fix themselves or even that they need fixing.
It's all so sad...and avoidable.

I enjoyed the videos of Bill Gleason, and I've seen a few others of him before. But when he starts talking about fire and water I get lost.
Yup. Budo takes research and travel. It always has.
Funny that once again...a guy you don't understand...is taking off and doing things that...well....you don't understand.
I stopped an Aikido shihan (who was also a BJJ teacher) in his tracks in a very public venue. Ya know what he told his friends later? He said what I was telling him and explaining to him was like a....a... foreign language. Concepts and idea he had never heard of before.
So, what breaks the pattern? Observation, and being handed things on a platter never worked....ever. I think only research, travel and doing the work will make the difference.
Kata..is not going to do it. Ten years from now there will be men and women of power in Aikido doing what Ueshiba was doing. And many here will not be able to and will still be here wondering what happened and what people are talking about.
I suspect it's always been this way.
Dan

Rob Watson
07-31-2012, 12:07 PM
Off hand and off topic and in no particular order of importance we have; Ueshiba, Inue, Tohei, Shioda, Shirata, Mochizuki, Tomiki. Then, Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa, etc. I am sure I missed people.
Dan

Inue ... is this Inoue Niriaki (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsY2T5cLWhw) or Inoue Kyoichi (http://www.gottsu-iiyan.ca/gottsupedia/index.php/Inoue_Kyoichi)? Someone else?

chillzATL
07-31-2012, 12:28 PM
Inue ... is this Inoue Niriaki (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsY2T5cLWhw) or Inoue Kyoichi (http://www.gottsu-iiyan.ca/gottsupedia/index.php/Inoue_Kyoichi)? Someone else?

pretty sure he meant Noriaki/yoichiro/any of his numerous names/ Inoue.

Mary Eastland
07-31-2012, 01:58 PM
So many opportunities for hands when they stay in front of hips or center or centre and are accessable.

DH
08-01-2012, 02:36 PM
So many opportunities for hands when they stay in front of hips or center or centre and are accessable.
One has nothing to do with the other, as such, any spacial relationship is nonexistent.

Mary Eastland
08-01-2012, 06:58 PM
Hi Dan:
Not sure what you mean by that.
M

mathewjgano
08-02-2012, 01:04 PM
I've found that explaining movement (displacement) from the perspective of either front foot or back foot, could imply -- even if it's not meant that way -- that the "other" foot has a diminished or independent role. I prefer the approach where for example if I want to step forward or backwards, both feet/leg/kua are doing something; more specifically, they are doing the same thing but in opposite directions, which combined with whole body connection allows one to "move from the center".

That's a good point, any time we point only to a part of something, in some sense at least, we diminish the whole. So then I suppose that, while suggesting to move forward from the front foot might be a good way to augment movement which is coming too much from the back foot, it's only true until it's overdone in some way, in which case "use your rear foot more" might be the best response.
So, if there's a proper understanding (whatever that might happen to be) already in place to cohesively match the sides of the body to each other, I think it would make sense to use "part-oriented" phrasing.
I would guess that in all IHTBF things (so not necessarily talking about aiki here), "more this," and, "less that" are pretty common because of the real-time corrective descriptions being conveyed throughout the interaction. Another similar example would be "less shoulder," which is something I've been told multiple times everywhere I've trained (albeit I can count them on one hand). So I suppose the question is one of how much supporting information is also given to properly frame the "part-oriented" prescription.
I'm ultimately guessing, but in my own case, pressing forward with the forward foot seems like a good (presently better) way of keeping me from leaning and/or tilting my hips too far forward.