Free Solo Climbing

[Please visit our sponsor:]

[mathewjgano]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR1jwwagtaQ&feature=youtu.be

Pretty amazing...and an excellent example of a controlled mind. I like what he describes when asked about whether he feels adrenaline.
There are a number of interesting things I got from this video.
Enjoy.

[genin]

Anytime I see guys like these I am amazed by one thing in particular. Where is their water?!?

[mathewjgano]

lol, hundreds of feet above them! Incentive perhaps?

[dps]

While I can admire the physical and mental discipline he has to do Free Solo Climbing, I question his judgement on continuing an activity where the death rate is around 50%.

dps

[Basia Halliop]

"While I can admire the physical and mental discipline he has to do Free Solo Climbing, I question his judgement on continuing an activity where the death rate is around 50%."

Yes. The actual physical feat could be done (and most likely has been done many times) with safety ropes in place, but with slack in the ropes so they are never used. Which, by the way, can take a lot of mental control too because there are times when it's soooo tempting to use the ropes.

This is just danger for the sake of danger.

If he craves danger, why not do something actually useful like be a firefighter or an aid worker in a war zone? This just seems like pointless risk of life.

[mathewjgano]

"While I can admire the physical and mental discipline he has to do Free Solo Climbing, I question his judgement on continuing an activity where the death rate is around 50%."

Yes. The actual physical feat could be done (and most likely has been done many times) with safety ropes in place, but with slack in the ropes so they are never used. Which, by the way, can take a lot of mental control too because there are times when it's soooo tempting to use the ropes.

This is just danger for the sake of danger.

If he craves danger, why not do something actually useful like be a firefighter or an aid worker in a war zone? This just seems like pointless risk of life.

Well put. It's not a risk I would ever take. "Stuff happens" is my motto. It's astounding to me, and I am in awe of his skill and confidence, but no matter how good I am at something, I would try to account for that unknown x-factor.

[genin]

Last summer I attempted to summit Bell Rock in Arizona, which is nothing compared to something like "El Cap", although it's still challenging and dangerous. I made it close to the top, but I became nauseated even thinking about trying to make it the rest of the way. Quite simply, it was just too risky. I rested there and drank some water and eventually a shirtless hiker appeared, sweating profusely. He didn't really say anything because he was so in the zone, and he was now at the part where his life was truly at risk if he made one misstep. I watched as he tentatively made his way onward, exploring the various summit routes which all looked impossible from my vantage point. Slowly, and need I say CAREFULLY, he eventually made it to the peak. Again, this was summer and he was topless and without water and sweating heavily.

I didn't get the chance to meetup with him at the bottom, but I wanted nothing more than to shake that man's hand. I'm sure to him, summiting mountains like that without water or regard for his LIFE was just a typical Saturday. But for me it was an amazing feat. One worthy of admiration and story telling.

[Anthony Loeppert]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR1jwwagtaQ&feature=youtu.be

Pretty amazing...and an excellent example of a controlled mind. I like what he describes when asked about whether he feels adrenaline.
There are a number of interesting things I got from this video.
Enjoy.

Oh my... that scares the crap out of me. I have a moderate (healthy?) fear of heights - airplanes are no issue but you won't find me in a hot air balloon or on the side of a shear cliff.

But that guy has transformed himself into something else - via his environment of climbing walls - as his hands have adapted to the task.

I played cello for many years, though I have not picked up the instrument in a LONG time, and the tips of my fingers on my left hand are still bigger than my right due to how the instrument is played. That guy's hands were conditioned for the task of climbing in a way I never thought possible.

Regards,
Anthony

[Basia Halliop]

It's not mostly in the hands... of course they matter, especially for small grips, but it's more about learning which way to shift your weight, where to push and where to pull, which way to balance, etc. I climb but not that advanced and never solo...

[Basia Halliop]

I didn't get the chance to meetup with him at the bottom, but I wanted nothing more than to shake that man's hand. I'm sure to him, summiting mountains like that without water or regard for his LIFE was just a typical Saturday. But for me it was an amazing feat. One worthy of admiration and story telling.

Story telling, yeah, but I why admiration? I don't get that. What's admirable about acting without regard for your life? Isn't that just basically saying that human life is meaningless and that you don't value the amazing gift you've been given by being able to be alive and healthy when so many others aren't? There are people in the world who would do almost anything for the health the hiker in your story has, and he's willing to risk throwing it away for some bragging rights or because he couldn't be bothered to carry a water bottle. It's insulting to those people.

It's got nothing in common with someone taking risks out of respect for someone else's life (burning building + child trapped inside, etc). Here there's no greater goal to gain. What's gained is so minor that if that goal is worth risking life for, it just says life is meaningless. Which is depressing.

[Basia Halliop]

Of course it's his own life so his own choice and he must live his life according to his own beliefs and not mine... but I see no reason for anyone else to admire it, even if I can respect it in the basic way I can respect anyone else's desire to live their own life their own way.

[genin]

Story telling, yeah, but I why admiration? I don't get that. What's admirable about acting without regard for your life? Isn't that just basically saying that human life is meaningless and that you don't value the amazing gift you've been given by being able to be alive and healthy when so many others aren't? There are people in the world who would do almost anything for the health the hiker in your story has, and he's willing to risk throwing it away for some bragging rights or because he couldn't be bothered to carry a water bottle. It's insulting to those people.

It's got nothing in common with someone taking risks out of respect for someone else's life (burning building + child trapped inside, etc). Here there's no greater goal to gain. What's gained is so minor that if that goal is worth risking life for, it just says life is meaningless. Which is depressing.

I respect balls, plain and simple. Especially when you demonstrate that you are not just a wild idiot, but are able to summon inner courage and strength in the face of danger and overcome an obstacle. You are exactly right in that he has something many others don't, and would love to have, yet he risks it all for seemingly nothing. Who knows if he is after bragging rights, he may not be. Perhaps it is that individual's way of enjoying his life to the fullest, even in the face of possible death. It's what makes him feel alive. Those others who could never do this, myself included, envy what he is able to do.

I would also say that risking your life to save children from a burning building is no longer admirable once you go around saying "Hey everyone, I save kids from burning buildings! Aren't I admirable?!" If you do that, and expect nothing in return, then it's highly admirable. If you do it for bragging rights, you lose all respect (from me anyways).

[lbb]

Story telling, yeah, but I why admiration? I don't get that. What's admirable about acting without regard for your life? Isn't that just basically saying that human life is meaningless and that you don't value the amazing gift you've been given by being able to be alive and healthy when so many others aren't?

Basia, isn't it possible that you're guessing at what such actions would mean to you, and concluding that they must therefore mean the same thing to this climber? Seems like flawed reasoning to me.

There are people in the world who would do almost anything for the health the hiker in your story has, and he's willing to risk throwing it away for some bragging rights or because he couldn't be bothered to carry a water bottle. It's insulting to those people.

No, it isn't. It's not about those people. He can't gift those people with his good health; he can't somehow save them by keeping his feet on the ground, and he's not doing what he's doing to somehow spite them. And you think it's about "some bragging rights", but you don't really know, do you? The interviewer tried at times to bait him with the standard cliches about "adrenaline"; he shut that down pretty thoroughly, I thought.

It's got nothing in common with someone taking risks out of respect for someone else's life (burning building + child trapped inside, etc). Here there's no greater goal to gain. What's gained is so minor that if that goal is worth risking life for, it just says life is meaningless. Which is depressing.

So, it's only self-sacrificing altruism that can serve a "greater goal"? By that yardstick, a great many people are "say life is meaningless" -- artists, musicians, dedicated martial artists, all kinds of people engaged in singleminded pursuits that are not literally or metaphorically saving children trapped in burning buildings. Now [I]that's depressing.

[Basia Halliop]

Oh, of course, I'm speculating and projecting all over the place. Just trying to explain why admiration for someone who intentionally goes hiking on a hot day without water is a reaction that I can't fathom. I don't see the bravery in that, just apparent stupidity (note I said apparent). That was the story those comments were in response to - at least in the initial free climbing video I can see there's a hugely intense thrill, which for some people might be rewarding enough to be worth it, though not personally for me.

[Basia Halliop]

No, it isn't. It's not about those people. He can't gift those people with his good health; he can't somehow save them by keeping his feet on the ground, and he's not doing what he's doing to somehow spite them. And you think it's about "some bragging rights", but you don't really know, do you? The interviewer tried at times to bait him with the standard cliches about "adrenaline"; he shut that down pretty thoroughly, I thought.

I wasn't talking about him, I was talking about Roger Flatley's anecdote about a guy climbing a mountain on a hot day without water.

[Basia Halliop]

artists, musicians, dedicated martial artists, all kinds of people engaged in singleminded pursuits that are not literally or metaphorically saving children trapped in burning buildings.

I don't really see the parallel, since those people aren't risking their life to any extreme extent to accomplish those things. My point was that to me, an extreme risk to life needs an extreme justification.

I just don't see anything amazing or awesome or inspiring about someone doing something extremely dangerous just for sake of doing something extremely dangerous. It's their life, and that's fine, and presumably there's something about the experience they're getting out of it, and if they're decent people and not hurting anyone then there's nothing to particularly look down on them for either, but I don't admire it.

[Basia Halliop]

I would also say that risking your life to save children from a burning building is no longer admirable once you go around saying "Hey everyone, I save kids from burning buildings! Aren't I admirable?!"

Sure, agree with that and it doesn't mean the person would necessarily be a great person. Although OTOH the kid is alive regardless of the motivations.

[lbb]

I don't really see the parallel, since those people aren't risking their life to any extreme extent to accomplish those things. My point was that to me, an extreme risk to life needs an extreme justification.

I guess it's all in what you would call "extreme". People have devoted themselves to their various passions in all kinds of ways that normal people call "extreme", and while it's not immediately life-threatening, you can certainly argue that the life of a starving artist doesn't improve one's well-being, and can be plenty detrimental to those around them.

There are also many examples of people who acted against medical advice (for example, refusing certain kinds of treatment). This ranges from people refusing a straightforward treatment for a condition that ends up killing you, to people who are dying anyway refusing further treatment. At both extremes, and everywhere in between, there are other people who are firmly convinced that the person is making the wrong choice. Sometimes it's pretty cut and dried, but a lot of the time it seems to me like it's in the eye of the beholder, with no obvious right choice.

I just don't see anything amazing or awesome or inspiring about someone doing something extremely dangerous just for sake of doing something extremely dangerous.

Well, see, that is where you may be mistaken (in the assumption that the only reason they're doing it is because it's extremely dangerous. As much as that element looms large to a casual observer, it may be incidental to the person doing it. It's not why you do it, it's not why you don't do it...it's just there.

It's their life, and that's fine, and presumably there's something about the experience they're getting out of it

...and right there you've admitted to the possibility that there may be more to it than "just for the sake of doing something extremely dangerous". See what I mean?

[Basia Halliop]

...and right there you've admitted to the possibility that there may be more to it than "just for the sake of doing something extremely dangerous". See what I mean?

Yes, that's true. Although what I was thinking when I wrote that was that for some people 'doing something extremely dangerous' might in and of itself feel like enough reason. E.g., some people like to feel fear. For other people it may be that they're doing something despite the danger rather than actually because of it. If they're adults, know the risks of what they're doing, and don't have young children, as far as I'm concerned they can do whatever they want and I'll be perplexed but can shrug and live and let live.

[phitruong]

there were folks who looked at the moon and said "nice", "beautiful", ...etc. and there were folks who said "we will put man on the moon someday." and they did by strap man "on four million pounds of fuel, .... and a thing that has 270,000 moving parts built by the lowest bidder" :)

there are few who can show the rest of us what we human are capable of.

[genin]

there were folks who looked at the moon and said "nice", "beautiful", ...etc. and there were folks who said "we will put man on the moon someday." and they did by strap man "on four million pounds of fuel, .... and a thing that has 270,000 moving parts built by the lowest bidder" :)

there are few who can show the rest of us what we human are capable of.

On the flipside of that coin, the billions of dollars spent on moon missions did little to benefit anyone, aside from those employed to accomplish that mission--all at the expense of taxpayers of course. Meanwhile, poverty within American inner cities rages on, with precious money that would've otherwise been used for social programs or subsidies to assist those less fortunate literally going "up in smoke" (polluting our air as well!) I, for one, am completely unimpressed by the capabilities of humanity, at least in this respect.

[phitruong]

On the flipside of that coin, the billions of dollars spent on moon missions did little to benefit anyone, aside from those employed to accomplish that mission--all at the expense of taxpayers of course. Meanwhile, poverty within American inner cities rages on, with precious money that would've otherwise been used for social programs or subsidies to assist those less fortunate literally going "up in smoke" (polluting our air as well!) I, for one, am completely unimpressed by the capabilities of humanity, at least in this respect.

there will always be poverty, poor, inequity, and various society ills and etc and etc. can't speak for other folks, but years ago when i lived in a back ass third world country, working in the rice paddy, living with no indoor plumbing, no electricity, and close to starvation, i often looked up the moon and dreamed of being an astronaut. so i studied math and science by the oil lamp and went into science/engineering field and a star trek fan. inspiration gives you hope. hope gives you drive. drive takes you places.

[dps]

On the flipside of that coin, the billions of dollars spent on moon missions did little to benefit anyone, aside from those employed to accomplish that mission--all at the expense of taxpayers of course..

This is not true.

The research and development stemming from NASA has improved our lives in the fields of medicine, food production, transportation, communications and more.

It took me less then 20 seconds to find this information,

http://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2008/tech_benefits.html

Don't be lazy, do some research before you post.

[genin]

This is not true.

The research and development stemming from NASA has improved our lives in the fields of medicine, food production, transportation, communications and more.

It took me less then 20 seconds to find this information,

http://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2008/tech_benefits.html

Don't be lazy, do some research before you post.

Lolz, not really. Not one of those "improvements" was a result of moon missions. In fact, many of them could've been created in a zero G environment here on earth. The folks at NASA have a vested interest in making it seem like their work is indispensable, just like the factory worker who doesn't want to be replaced by a robot. It's all about money.

There was a joke made on a Simpsons episode where they were planning a shuttle mission focusing on the effects of zero G's on tiny screws, which would have profound benefits ranging from "watch making to watch repair". A tongue and cheek joke pointing out the limited nature of any benefits space exploration can produce (based on our current level of technology).

Maybe if the cost was not an issue, I'd say go for it. But the cost and risks are just too high. Heck, even NASA agrees with this which is why they shut down their shuttle program.

20 seconds, eh? It shows.

[dps]

There was a joke made on a Simpsons episode where they were planning a shuttle mission focusing on the effects of zero G's on tiny screws, which would have profound benefits ranging from "watch making to watch repair". A tongue and cheek joke pointing out the limited nature of any benefits space exploration can produce (based on our current level of technology).
.

ROFLMAO!

Using the Simpsons as a reference to support your statement, eh? It shows.

dps

[Kevin Leavitt]

They could have been invented or applied by others...but they weren't. NASA provided the environment through government funding to allow those things to come to the market.

Same with Internet. Without DARPA, the internet would not have come about...or at least come about when it did.

It is a fact that government necessity...and War...have driven the train on many of the things we hold dear in our modern lives.

[genin]

Al Gore invented th internetz, not Darpa.

dps, "Simpsons did it!"

[lbb]

Arguments about what NASA did and didn't do are beside the point. The contention that actions can have results beyond their obvious, tangible benefits is incontestable and is proven by Phi's example of being inspired. QED.

[mathewjgano]

Arguments about what NASA did and didn't do are beside the point. The contention that actions can have results beyond their obvious, tangible benefits is incontestable and is proven by Phi's example of being inspired. QED.

Absolutely. Inspiration is a wonderful fuel source, and is a central part of why I posted this thread. I doubt I would ever attempt to climb hundreds of feet without a rope, but the feat is demonstrative of at least part of the range of human potential. It can seem wreckless, and arguably is, but there was still considerable planning and training leading up to that point, showing the power of deliberate and disciplined actions.
As it relates to the value of NASA (and the Shuttle program), they endeavor (pun intended) to perform risky tasks to yield all manner of lessons. Arguably (I would disagree, but NASA in no small part created my love of science, so I'm biased), it's wasted large amounts of resources for little gain in some areas, but the point wasn't to make a profit so much as to advance our familiarity with a very inaccessible region of our knowledge. We can simulate a lot on Earth, but actually going out and doing it provides a kind of litmus test that I believe carries considerable value.
On a sadder note, I just realized I told Phi something he already knew when I mentioned what the LHC is in another thread.:o But seriously, left-hand corn is delicious.:D

[genin]

A good quote from Star Trek VI:

"...just because we can do a thing, it does not necessarily mean we must do that thing."

21st century humans are only just now realizing this, but I fear it won't be until the next couple centuries before they put that philosophy into action. I guess that's ironic, considering it's a philosophy of INACTION, essentially.

[mathewjgano]

A good quote from Star Trek VI:

"...just because we can do a thing, it does not necessarily mean we must do that thing."

21st century humans are only just now realizing this, but I fear it won't be until the next couple centuries before they put that philosophy into action. I guess that's ironic, considering it's a philosophy of INACTION, essentially.

I agree, but it's a fine line. Sometimes you have to push the envelope and sometimes you shouldn't. It's rarely clear as to which one is the best option.
These days, in the light of things like profound inequity, I tend to agree it would be better to work on problems which help those in serious need (e.g. solve the problem of clean water before solving the problem of building a better iPhone). While it's "awesome" to see people hiking or climbing to push themselves, wouldn't it be better if they were farming to feed underfed children? Or instead of chatting online, wouldn't it be better to be helping inner city youths? Just because we can sit in front of a computer screen doesn't mean we should...well I should, but I'm the exception that proves the rule.:p

[phitruong]

But seriously, left-hand corn is delicious.:D

especially when you impacted with high energy and made it pop, then pour on some very highly flavor substance from bovine. go great with some highly entertainment visualization. :)

[phitruong]

A good quote from Star Trek VI:

"...just because we can do a thing, it does not necessarily mean we must do that thing."

21st century humans are only just now realizing this, but I fear it won't be until the next couple centuries before they put that philosophy into action. I guess that's ironic, considering it's a philosophy of INACTION, essentially.

there are things that we need to do even when we don't realize we need it yet.

then there were some crazy sailor decided to take some ships across the ocean when folks told him that he would fall off the world or lost, but he went ahead and took his santa maria for a tour anyway.

then there was this old guy came up with some crazy idea about peaceful martial arts which was just crazy talk.

then there was this dude who talked about relative stuffs which everyone knew that one should not lend money to them. :)

[genin]

there are things that we need to do even when we don't realize we need it yet.

then there were some crazy sailor decided to take some ships across the ocean when folks told him that he would fall off the world or lost, but he went ahead and took his santa maria for a tour anyway.

then there was this old guy came up with some crazy idea about peaceful martial arts which was just crazy talk.

then there was this dude who talked about relative stuffs which everyone knew that one should not lend money to them. :)

Agreed. That's also why that Star Trek quote uses the most ambiguous term possible to describe what we should and should not be doing--"thing". It leaves it wide open to interpretation.

And that Einstein bloke did pave the way for the A-bomb and all the folks that subsequently died from it's use. But then of course many others may have been saved in the end. It's all open to speculation and interpretation...