Backward rolls

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[Peter Wong]

I've been looking at alot of Youtube videos on ukemi. I see some people doing them different from how I was taught. The backroll. When the left leg is forward and you're going down into the roll, which butt cheek touches the mat/ground?

[Dave de Vos]

I'd say the right butt cheek, then diagonally across the back to the left shoulder.
Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVjimVc3pXY

[robin_jet_alt]

If the left leg is forward, the right cheek should touch the mat first. I just did a few in my lounge room to confirm. It's just like in Dave's video.

[PeterR]

I've always wondered where the back role originated. Martially it makes no sense, from a safety point of view it has issues. I admit there is a certain elegance when it is done right but that is about it.

[robin_jet_alt]

I agree Peter. The only reason I can think of to do one is aesthetic. I never do them when I am actually thrown.

[Cliff Judge]

Yeah I think they are just a means to keep a certain flow in your training when you are working on a technique. It feels like you aren't interrupting the cycle, and when you come out of the roll your maai is usually right to move in again for the next attack. Also, pushing yourself up with your arms is hard to do and seems worth it.

[amoeba]

Do you have examples? I'm having difficulties imagining how it would work to bring the other butt cheek down first. Unless you take a step back, obviously, but then you've changed hanmi and the whole point is moot...;)

[Janet Rosen]

Do you have examples? I'm having difficulties imagining how it would work to bring the other butt cheek down first. Unless you take a step back, obviously, but then you've changed hanmi and the whole point is moot...;)

If the left foot is forward, then the right foot is back. It is more natural to sink to the right knee. Then sit on the right butt. Then "throw" everything over the left shoulder so the roll goes right hip to left shoulder.

[robin_jet_alt]

Do you have examples? I'm having difficulties imagining how it would work to bring the other butt cheek down first. Unless you take a step back, obviously, but then you've changed hanmi and the whole point is moot...;)

Did you look at the video that Dave posted? That's how it is done. Just remember to throw your left foot over your left shoulder after you have put your right butt cheek on the mat.

Another good video: He looks at backward rolls from about the 7 minute mark. He takes a slightly different approach to the Yoshinkan guy, but the principles are the same. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OaicleoK4M&feature=related

[phitruong]

an interesting take on backward and forward rolls http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RreOg4rEr3o and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGfuK9H1RKk&feature=related

he's right about the getting the knees off the floor on the backward roll.

[Hilary]

We were taught that with the left foot forward, the right outer edge / instep is placed behind you on the ground, and the right leg becomes a shock absorber for your right butt cheek before it hits. Then proceed diagonally across the back. The knee never directly impacts the ground. Knees and the ground are a bad idea in anything other than seiza.

Though, typically, these days I find myself slapping out rather than a backward roll. Though in all honesty, this might have to do with the excess chi I have been storing around my midsection.

[DCP]

Though, typically, these days I find myself slapping out rather than a backward roll. Though in all honesty, this might have to do with the excess chi I have been storing around my midsection.

Because of my growing "ki basket," I find the inertia of the full back roll easier than slapping out and being "static" on the floor. It takes more energy to get up than to roll up using the energy of the fall.:D

[Hilary]

Daniel perhaps a better description is a slap and a half roll. I am not really that big in the middle, but I find I can dissipate my momentum effectively (I'm 6' 1" 205lbs), do a little half turn and find myself in a balls of the feet seiza, ready rock back on my soles for a minimum knee stress standup. The 5-10lbs in the gut interferes with a really tight low energy back roll (in my case). Front roll no problem back eehhh, plus I get to mess with uke's feet!

[Mark Uttech]

Onegaishimasu, which butt cheek touches the mat?? Gee, after nearly 28 years of rolliing I never thought of it.
In gassho,
Mark

[Kevin Leavitt]

I've always wondered where the back role originated. Martially it makes no sense, from a safety point of view it has issues. I admit there is a certain elegance when it is done right but that is about it.

From a getting knocked down stand point I agree with your assessment.

As far as newaza goes, the mechanics of a back roll are very applicable. While you won't execute a back roll in grappling per se, there are things that learned in doing backrolls that are useful,

[PhilMyKi]

I recieved a smalll book in the post this morning by the (very) late W.E.Fairbairn (look him up, died long before I was born. I first heard of him through the old chaps at my grandads years ago). It covers a multitude of CQ fighting techniques as taught to the forces and SOE during WW2.

In the section on getting up off the floor whilst on the back the description and illustrations are clearly a backwards ukemi. So there must be added value in practising this ...

Just throwing that one out there.

[Eva Antonia]

Hello,

how nice to read that lots of people find backward rolls awkward and suspect them of not being really efficient. I always felt the same, but not being an expert with many, many years under the belt, always thought this might be a personal misinterpretation.

Whenever possible I try to replace them by a lateral or forward roll, or slapping and getting up laterally, which seems to be easier.
When having to explain how to do them, since they are unavoidable, I always use the picture of a circle you form, when standing on the left foot, with your right leg, rolling over the outer side of your foot, outer side of the leg, outer side of the knee, leg, hip, then give a kick in the air with the leg that formed the circle and roll over the left shoulder, looking to the right. The kick helps to land on your feet and not your knees; you can use the palm of your hand as support but don't need to.

All the best,

Eva

[Keith Larman]

So out of curiosity, for what techniques do people employ a full backwards roll as the proper ukemi? I'm having trouble thinking of anything, but then again... 3 hours sleep and the tea hasn't kicked in yet.

[Keith Larman]

I should amend my response by noting that sometimes I find myself taking a full backwards roll ukemi if I"m trying to increase the distance between me and the other person. So I think it is a useful skill, another option in terms of positioning options. But then again I have the suspicion I'm missing some obvious techniques and it's just the fuzzy morning brain...

[john.burn]

So out of curiosity, for what techniques do people employ a full backwards roll as the proper ukemi? I'm having trouble thinking of anything, but then again... 3 hours sleep and the tea hasn't kicked in yet.

In my old dojo they used to (and still do) enforce the idea that you must take a forward roll from shihonage which I always hated and never used to do, found it way too dangerous and made for a technique that simply didn't work as you have to let go of your partner in order for them to roll... Anyways, we used to practice a kata based on shihonage with 8 or so attacks or grabs and the backwards roll allowed me to stay connected in terms of distance and timing a lot better than people doing the forward roll - obviously this isn't a normal application of ukemi for shihonage but it worked and made sense for this.

Tenchinage would also spring to mind as something my body may take a backwards roll from - but not always. It's a good space saver at times if the mat is crowded and you can't take a large forward ukemi.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I should amend my response by noting that sometimes I find myself taking a full backwards roll ukemi if I"m trying to increase the distance between me and the other person. So I think it is a useful skill, another option in terms of positioning options. But then again I have the suspicion I'm missing some obvious techniques and it's just the fuzzy morning brain...

Could be I suppose, but nage can still come forward, so I don't really think it buys you much. I think a good break fall to a open guard position to be a better tactical choice personally.

[Marc Abrams]

Could be I suppose, but nage can still come forward, so I don't really think it buys you much. I think a good break fall to a open guard position to be a better tactical choice personally.

I look to use the back roll as a throw itself; a kick or leg sweep on the way down. I also treat being on my back as standing. Good posture so that I can utilize my limbs to both attack and defend. Ukemi is receiving force and should be to gain some tactical advantage.

Marc Abrams

[Keith Larman]

John:

FWIW. From Tenchinage we do a "mat splat". No roll. Yes, you go backwards, but not in to a roll per se. Same with shihonage -- we don't do the big version but more go straight down once they're off balance.

Kevin:

No real argument. As you know context is important and as I said I really can't think of many times I willingly take a backwards roll when practicing or even in jiu waza. Yeah, I may end up *on* my back, but rarely am I propelled backwards enough to necessitate a full roll. And in terms of martial effectiveness, I agree completely with what you're saying in most contexts, but sometimes you're going backwards and the other fella doesn't close the distance. It's all about the fluidity of the situation and having options, regardless of whether you take them. Just nice to be able to if you decide the particular situation would warrant it. Big guy gives a strong, unexpected push in to your chest, you have all sorts of room, his pals are behind him and he's just being an ass and not jumping in. I might just roll out backwards and come up with a bit more distance. It also keeps him between me and his pals just in case. Then run like hell... ;) But you get the idea, I'm not saying it is ideal or even a good idea most of the time. Probably not. I just like having options. There's also the "how did that guy do that?" reaction from some. Context, context. Wouldn't do it in the ring. Wouldn't do it in a one-on-one situation as usually the best option is to get in there and finish on your own terms rather than the other dude's.

[john.burn]

John:

FWIW. From Tenchinage we do a "mat splat". No roll. Yes, you go backwards, but not in to a roll per se. Same with shihonage -- we don't do the big version but more go straight down once they're off balance.



Hi Keith,

Yup, this is pretty much how we do things in my dojo.

The kata from my old dojo was effectively like any other Karate type kata but you had a person grabbing you although you're both working together. The straight down finish for shihonage would kinda have messed the flow up as the whole thing was one technique from start to finish, if that makes any sense. As I said, that was a unique use for it.

With tenchi, most of the time I splat down (but not slap) however if someone is projecting me away more than down, I'll take a backwards roll sometimes or the roll forwards whilst looking back at them type of roll where you really end up rolling on your side - I have no idea what that's called... easier to do than describe!

[Janet Rosen]

I never do backward rolls except if I absolutely have to as part of teaching them to newbies. Going back/down, I take a backfall, either straight down hard if that's where I"m being put, or softly and rolling along one side of the body, over to the other side to get the momentum to come up into a horse stance.

[robin_jet_alt]

So far all the arguments for backward rolls have been based around getting up, and creating distance. I'd say that is a valid point, provided you have the time and space to use it. However, if you are being splatted at nage's feet, then I don't see it as a realistic option. The way we do tenchi-nage for instance, there is not a lot of outward projection, and it is all straight down. At speed, you even have to do a baseball slide type of ukemi. In that sort of situation, I don't see a backward roll as realistic.

[PeterR]

I am still curious - since the back role is ubiquitous. Where does it originate.

Shodokan doesn't do them but that might be due to technical reasons rather than it did not exist when Tomiki was a student.

[Keith Larman]

Well, I would qualify that statement (ubiquitous) with saying that it is a part of our warmups, but again, I can't think of any techniques/waza/whathaveyou that have a full backwards roll as the proper ukemi. FWIW my take on it (totally without any means of validating or confirming) is that training in a full backwards roll was about simply teaching body skills. The ability to fall backwards confidently and go over if need be to regather balance. So I've always considered more a training thing than an actual "ukemi" you would likely take. Interesting to think about it more deeply, however...