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Unregistered
07-06-2002, 09:29 PM
I was reading the AAA/Shinjinkai information, especially the last post, that came from the Chicago Area Dojos thread and was curious as to other peoples/orginazations experiences in similar situations, if any. Has an orginization ever kicked out, or had a member leave, and then further threatened any members that chose to follow the person who got kicked out/left? Do you think it is appropriate, in general, for an orginazation to behave in such a manner? (Threaten others that follow, I mean...). Should a dojo just let it go? Or should they do otherwise? What of students who have no dealings in the events, those that just happen to start with Shinjinkai off the street and are, in effect, penalized by their association with Shinkinkai by Humbu? Should dojos be more concerned with spreading the love and benefits of aikido to all, regardless of who may teach it (granting, of course, that people who may teach are actual instructors) or more concerned about perceived threats?

This is a question in a general sense, and not geared toward the AAA/Shinjinkai specific event(s)....

Blaine Feyen
07-07-2002, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
I was reading the AAA/Shinjinkai information, especially the last post, that came from the Chicago Area Dojos thread and was curious as to other peoples/orginazations experiences in similar situations, if any. Has an orginization ever kicked out, or had a member leave, and then further threatened any members that chose to follow the person who got kicked out/left? Do you think it is appropriate, in general, for an orginazation to behave in such a manner? (Threaten others that follow, I mean...). Should a dojo just let it go? Or should they do otherwise? What of students who have no dealings in the events, those that just happen to start with Shinjinkai off the street and are, in effect, penalized by their association with Shinkinkai by Humbu? Should dojos be more concerned with spreading the love and benefits of aikido to all, regardless of who may teach it (granting, of course, that people who may teach are actual instructors) or more concerned about perceived threats?

This is a question in a general sense, and not geared toward the AAA/Shinjinkai specific event(s)....

That is an excellent question and a very valid point. Since I was the last to post a response in regarding the AAA/shinjinkai situation, I feel somewhat responsible to respond. You are absolutely right! Dojo should let it go and move on. For the record; nobody who chose to leave and follow shinjinkai has been threatened. They were warned about their possible future recognition with Hombu Dojo if they were to associate with this person that has been stripped of their rank at Hombu. For those to which rank and politics does not matter, it is O.K. to leave. For those who know the deeper truth as to this instructors actions toward the students, the other instructors, members of the organization, and the organization itself, they would be crazy to follow such a person, even though he is a very good instructor! Being in a position of leadership, however, is more than just having good technique and an ability to disseminate that to the masses. Leadership is about having influence and recognizing the responsibility that comes along with that influence. To be a good instructor and leader means caring more about the students growth and development than your own personal aims and comfort. We all know this from experience we have had from our great mentors along the way.

To your question regarding the brand new student who just joins shinjinkai off the street, you have raised a very valid issue to which there is probably no adequate response for either side. However, since going through that very situation many years ago I know that as a beginner, for the most part, you take what your leader says (and sells) to be the true and right way. Therefore, if your instructor explains all of the negatives of political affiliation with a reputable organization (AAA/AAI/USAF/ASU/Hombu Dojo,etc)then that is what you believe and all is well in your world. It is not until you begin to step out into the world and travel that you start to see there might be more out there and you may start to question what you've been told all of these years. In this specific situation, it would not be good for these instructors to have their students out there in the world trying to find out the real story so they probably will not encourage travelling to other dojo. If they do, their students will be greeted with open Aikido arms wherever they decide to train. There is a small group of students that chose to take a stand for their "leader" and walk out of the dojo in protest. For that they are not guilty, they are only doing what they believe to be right for someone they believe in. The crime that has made them not so welcome back to their old dojo is the slandering, back-stabbing, and down-right underhanded and heinous actions toward other students, even children, who chose to remain with what they too believed to be the right thing. This specific group is rather small and insignificant. They were all adults and knew exactly what they were doing when they left. The toughest part for all in these situations is not the lack of affiliations for these folks but all of the friendships that were sacrificed for one misguided child and his misguided actions.

The AAA and Hombu dojo have made their statements regarding this individual for the protection of their current and future students. As Instructors we tell all potential students to do some due diligence when it comes to selecting a school. Not all students fit within a particular setting and not all schools are appropriate for that student. To those for whom affiliation within a reputable organization are important, as well as, with instructors who truly care about their students, they must use all of the senses that have been given to them to judge right and wrong. If they sense something to be not right, move away from that situation quickly!

Great question, keep training!

jimbaker
07-07-2002, 08:18 AM
Hombu Dojo regulations say that the power to issue ranks resides in the recognized organization and not in any one person. If a person authorized to issue rank leaves that organization, they lose that authorization, that is, Hombu will not recognize the new groups ranks.

They can, however, apply for Hombu recognition on their own, so long as they meet the requirements. There's nothing to say that the Shinjinkai can't apply to Hombu in five years.

It has be stated as fact the Moore Sensei has had his rank stripped. Is this so? I know of only one instance of someone having to return his rank certificates and that was for child molestation and the request was from a group associated with Hombu, not Hombu itself. As I recall, Toyoda Sensei was not associated with Hombu for a number of years, but he seemed to have retained his rank.

The larger question to me is what will happen with the other large Aikido groups as the leadership changes from the Japanese shihans. Will what is happening with the AAA be taken as a warning to them to make some sort of arrangements for the handing down of authority?

Jim Baker

Chris Li
07-07-2002, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by jimbaker
It has be stated as fact the Moore Sensei has had his rank stripped. Is this so? I know of only one instance of someone having to return his rank certificates and that was for child molestation and the request was from a group associated with Hombu, not Hombu itself. As I recall, Toyoda Sensei was not associated with Hombu for a number of years, but he seemed to have retained his rank.

As I understand it Toyoda re-affiliated with hombu as an independent organization (along the lines of ASU) some years ago.


The larger question to me is what will happen with the other large Aikido groups as the leadership changes from the Japanese shihans. Will what is happening with the AAA be taken as a warning to them to make some sort of arrangements for the handing down of authority?


It's already happened in places like Hawaii (although there never really was a Japanese shihan there). I think what eventually happens is that you end up with a lot of smaller groups independently affiliated. There are some benefits to a large organization if you have one high ranking individual and many low ranking ones, but what happens when you have (for example) 10 sixth dans each with their own dojo in a single group? There's very little benefit to staying in a single organization then.

Best,

Chris

Hogan
07-07-2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Chris Li


As I understand it Toyoda re-affiliated with hombu as an independent organization (along the lines of ASU) some years ago.
Chris

I think what Jim meant, and Jim please correct me if I am wrong, was that before Toyoda re-affiliated, while he was split from Humbu, he had retained his rank - it wasn't stripped away.

Unregistered
07-07-2002, 04:10 PM
That is indeed correct. Toyoda Sensei did split from Hombu dojo, but was NEVER stripped of his rank. After several years of hard work he was able to re-affiliate with Hombu dojo -- this affiliation remains strong for the AAA even though we have suffered the loss of our Founder and Teacher.

The communications that have been received by AAA members, with the full support of the Doshu and at his discretion, clearly state that Mr. Moore has been completely stripped of his rank and certification. Those communications also indicate that there is not currently nor will there ever be a chance for reconciliation/reaffiliation.

While certainly no one can ever predict the future, this is indeed the current status.

Life is a continual struggle --

Chris Li
07-07-2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Hogan


I think what Jim meant, and Jim please correct me if I am wrong, was that before Toyoda re-affiliated, while he was split from Humbu, he had retained his rank - it wasn't stripped away.

Ah, OK I guess that I mis-read the original post. As I understand it, even K. Tohei didn't have his rank revoked, nor did any of the people who broke off with hombu at one time or another (such as M. Saotome), so this case seems to be a little bit different.

Best,

Chris

Unregistered
07-07-2002, 05:01 PM
This seems kind of strange to me. Haven't other Aikido teacher done things that were contradictory to Hombu policy before (such as Tomiki introducing competition to his style, Tohei leaving causing a huge split in the Aikido world) and not had their rank stripped? Those both seem like larger indiscretions than even the worst story that had been told about the Shinjinkai leader, *trying* (yes, according to Blaine Feyen apparently he failed if that is what happened) to take control of an organization. I'm really new to aikido (3 months), so I could be wrong, but there seems to be more to the story than was told.

Unregistered
07-07-2002, 05:40 PM
"For the record; nobody who chose to leave and follow shinjinkai has been threatened. They were warned about their possible future recognition with Hombu Dojo if they were to associate with this person that has been stripped of their rank at Hombu."

I am posting anonymously because I am member of AAA and for the record, we have been threatened that if we have any contact with the Shinshinkai group, we'll be kicked out of AAA.

In my own case, I've just taken a Dan test and know that if I'm under any suspicion, I'll never get my certificate.

AAA's original announcement about Moore Sensei leaving said that he resigned to pursue his life's goals and that they wished him well. Later, he opened a dojo within a few miles of AAA, and the Zen group here moved to that location. The general trend has been that as time has gone by and some students have left to train there, that statements from AAA have become stronger and accusations are becoming more common. The understanding that most of us have is just that Moore Sensei left and is doing his own thing and AAA may not like it because they are losing some people. The worst part is that every time there is an accusation by AAA or they try to clamp down on students, they are actually alienating the students more.

I would like to have the freedom to train in AAA but to train with Moore Sensei from time to time because I respect him as a teacher. I don't see how my membership in AAA should be called into question because of that.

Finally, about Moore Sensei's status with Hombu dojo or his rank, students I know who are involved with his group have told me that there has been no confirmation regarding AAA's claims from Hombu dojo. So it remains to be seen what the story is about that one. From the sounds of it, they don't seem too concerned with the issue.

I plan to stay with AAA but I sincerely hope that the focus can return to training, instead of reacting against another organization or individual.

Leslie Parks
07-07-2002, 06:08 PM
"There's nothing to say that the Shinjinkai can't apply to Hombu in five years."
True, they can apply all they like, however it seems fairly unlikely that they would be accepted.

"It has been stated as fact that (this individual) has had his rank stripped. Is this so?"
As I understand the context, it is to the further extent that his name has been erased, wiped out, never to be acknowledged there again. It has been obliterated.

"there seems to be more to the story than was told".
There is. Keep in mind...
"Hombu dojo does not, just on a whim, excommunicate its members". Trust in the judgement of Hombu.

"This seems kind of strange to me."
Yes, strange indeed.

Chris Li
07-07-2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
"For the record; nobody who chose to leave and follow shinjinkai has been threatened. They were warned about their possible future recognition with Hombu Dojo if they were to associate with this person that has been stripped of their rank at Hombu."

I am posting anonymously because I am member of AAA and for the record, we have been threatened that if we have any contact with the Shinshinkai group, we'll be kicked out of AAA.


I have no idea whether or not the above is true or not (or some kind of misunderstanding). However, if someone told me something like that I'd be out the door in a minute, no need to kick me out - I make my own decisions about who I can and cannot associate or train with.


In my own case, I've just taken a Dan test and know that if I'm under any suspicion, I'll never get my certificate.

Wouldn't be worth it, for me, but that's up to you. It's just a piece of paper, after all, for all that it was officially stamped and sealed by some secretary in the hombu office.


Finally, about Moore Sensei's status with Hombu dojo or his rank, students I know who are involved with his group have told me that there has been no confirmation regarding AAA's claims from Hombu dojo. So it remains to be seen what the story is about that one. From the sounds of it, they don't seem too concerned with the issue.

As with Jim, I only know personally of one person who's even been "stripped", and that one was for something quite serious (the same case that Jim mentioned). However, I wouldn't be all that surprised if there were others, since my hunch is that a Japanese organization would tend to be on the quiet side about that kind of thing.

Best,

Chrisx

Unregistered
07-07-2002, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Leslie Parks

"there seems to be more to the story than was told".
There is. Keep in mind...
"Hombu dojo does not, just on a whim, excommunicate its members". Trust in the judgement of Hombu.

"This seems kind of strange to me."
Yes, strange indeed. [/B]

Are you going to tell us the rest of the story? Is there something to hide? I know you can't be protecting their leader's reputation as you've let his moral digressions appear on the board before.

Unregistered
07-07-2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered


Are you going to tell us the rest of the story? Is there something to hide? I know you can't be protecting their leader's reputation as you've let his moral digressions appear on the board before.

Well, actually Feyen Sensei gave a very concise overview of the situation, of which I was previously aware but didn't feel free to comment on to that extent, if you read the Chicago area Aikido thread, which, IMHO, is more than enough in my book. As he said, the details aren't for everyone. To enumerate his moral transgressions isn't worth my time anymore, as indicated by the icon on my last post. I think it's been made pretty clear that there is no mistaking which organization is which, which was how this discussion got started in the first place. I'm going to do my laundry so I have a clean gi for training tomorrow. And no, nothing to hide.

Leslie Parks
07-07-2002, 07:36 PM
Unless someone else replies before me, above reply is mine. I always try to post as myself.

Unregistered
07-07-2002, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered [/B]
"I am posting anonymously because I am member of AAA...

...I would like to have the freedom to train in AAA but to train with Moore Sensei from time to time because I respect him as a teacher. I don't see how my membership in AAA should be called into question because of that."
[/B]

I, too am a member of AAA. I'm wondering why, when Mr. Moore and the members of his organization have been so vocal in their criticism of the AAA, why anyone who is currently an AAA member would wish to train with him AND retain their membership in the AAA? Why train in an organization that has been accused of such cruel treatment as the AAA? And that you personally feel threatened by? Sounds like you yourself are unclear about your commitment. As Toyoda Sensei always said "you have to be clear". You need to think long and hard about where your loyalties are. The aikido world is based upon loyalties and it seems as though yours are split. Organizations grow because of the work of dedicated, loyal students -- how can the AAA grow with the attitude that you exhibit? With every new member that walks in the door, will you encourage them to check out the Shinjinkai club?

If your motive for staying with the AAA is in order to get that coveted dan certificate then your training is all for the wrong reason -- you simply want the affiliation and credentials that AAA can provide.

I can understand that the members of the Shinjinkai club dispute the statements from AAA alleging the stripping of rank by Hombu dojo -- who would want to believe anything as extreme as that about the "leader" that they have supported and believed. I suppose that the truth will be revealed when the first of his members tests for a Dan rank, only to find out that no valid membership from Aikikai headquarters will be issued. Yes, they are simply pieces of paper, but they give you validation. Validation which Mr. Moore is unable to provide.

Chris Li
07-07-2002, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
You need to think long and hard about where your loyalties are. The aikido world is based upon loyalties and it seems as though yours are split.

Personally, and this has nothing to do with the AAA, I train in Japan with three different groups, only two of them Aikikai. All of the people involved are aware of what I do and you know what? Nobody cares - I even get encouragement from the instructors involved (shihan, both Aikikai and not).



Organizations grow because of the work of dedicated, loyal students -- how can the AAA grow with the attitude that you exhibit? With every new member that walks in the door, will you encourage them to check out the Shinjinkai club?

I'd say sure, why not? I always encourage people to check out as many dojo and organizations as they can. Some people will prefer one place, some people will prefer another.

I'm disturbed by the implication that it is the duty of the student to serve the organization rather than the other way around. Basically, my view is that organizations exist for only one reason - to make training easier for the students. The problem is that these things tend to get develop a life and a hunger of their own, and pretty soon you end up with a situation where the organization actually begins to hamper practice rather than encourage it.

How can the AAA grow? The same way any organization grows - by providing benefits to its members. Growth for its own benefit is rarely worthwhile, especially because there are actually very few benefits (and many expenses) involved with Aikido organizations. I tend to favor the minimum amount necessary to encourage practice - that's one of the reasons that I like the Aikikai, because it's so loose that you don't end up spending an inordinate amount of time jumping through arbitrary hoops.

Best,

Chris

Unregistered
07-07-2002, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered


I, too am a member of AAA. I'm wondering why, when Mr. Moore and the members of his organization have been so vocal in their criticism of the AAA, why anyone who is currently an AAA member would wish to train with him AND retain their membership in the AAA? Why train in an organization that has been accused of such cruel treatment as the AAA? And that you personally feel threatened by? Sounds like you yourself are unclear about your commitment. As Toyoda Sensei always said "you have to be clear". You need to think long and hard about where your loyalties are. The aikido world is based upon loyalties and it seems as though yours are split. Organizations grow because of the work of dedicated, loyal students -- how can the AAA grow with the attitude that you exhibit? With every new member that walks in the door, will you encourage them to check out the Shinjinkai club?

If your motive for staying with the AAA is in order to get that coveted dan certificate then your training is all for the wrong reason -- you simply want the affiliation and credentials that AAA can provide.

I can understand that the members of the Shinjinkai club dispute the statements from AAA alleging the stripping of rank by Hombu dojo -- who would want to believe anything as extreme as that about the "leader" that they have supported and believed. I suppose that the truth will be revealed when the first of his members tests for a Dan rank, only to find out that no valid membership from Aikikai headquarters will be issued. Yes, they are simply pieces of paper, but they give you validation. Validation which Mr. Moore is unable to provide.

I am the person, the original UNREGISTERED that posted the openning question. I feel this has gotton a little off the path I wished it to go. Perhaps that members of AAA should have a group meeting on which to air their differences and come to a mutually agreeable solution - I wish them luck in their endeavors. But I do wish to respond to the above post....

For me, Aikdo is where my loyalties lie. If I do not get what I need in my training at a certain location, then it is time to move on - an old dojo shouldn't hold grudges if I, or anyone, decide to leave. This is my right, as it is for all aikidoists. Aikido is much bigger than all the petty feelings and misc rumors or perceived insults. Training at other dojos that are not members of our system, or that are not affiliated with us, is encouraged where I train, and I know Toyoda sensei encouraged this as well - we are that secure in our training and organization / place in the world to not be bothered by those that wish to do so. After all, the spreading of the "gospel" that is Aikido should be, really, the goal, don't you think ? I seem to remember an interview that quoted Fumio Toyoda as saying, "What we do in Aikido is harmonize. I like that. Mutual cooperation, and training in harmony." I remember another quote that said, in response to a question of why he does what he does, I think, aikido is about spreading love. (I can find the link for those that wish me to).

And a final Toyoda sensei quote, "The worst situation is where some sensei compares his aikido to someone else's by saying, "Mine's better." Of course he can't really know that what he's doing is better, but if he's saying that publicly, he loses. I believe he loses as a person. He can teach whatever he believes, but he's not supposed to speak about any other instructor like that. As a sensei, and as a student, he destroys himself.
It's hard sometimes. When you teach, you emphasize what you believe, and you present it to your students. That's fine. But if you talk about particular people or mention names, that is something else. If you can't control your ego, you lose face and stature." This is from a published interview.

I think that is a good quote to end on.

Jim ashby
07-08-2002, 07:16 AM
Be gentle with me, this is a genuine question. If a person is "Stripped of rank" surely they still have the knowledge and skills that they had before. If they then go on to start a new organisation/club/whatever they can call themselves what they like. I know this is going to get me flamed, but whatever organisation is started it has to start somewhere, with or without another person/organisation's blessing. Let us not forget that Aikido was started in the Twentieth century. I'd be very interested to know who verified/authorised the forming of the new art?
( Sits back and waits for the attacks)
Have fun.

Bruce Baker
07-08-2002, 07:41 AM
Although I am an outsider, and generally I don't care about politics, it seems the void created by the death of Toyoda sensei is beginning to show its internal cracks in the AAA?

Whether the student is aware of it or not, there is a whole drama of egos, politics, and power struggle going on behind the scenes is all of the Aikido organizations. Some deny it, some divert the subject, and some try to cut to the truth of human failings, but in the end we are all subject to the humanity we prescribe to in being human beings.

It isn't the first time an individual will break away from an organization, and it won't be the last.

I don't know the details, but as long an individual is recognized by Hombu and approved by the them within the political hierarchy, then they will continue to be within the Aikido designation of martial arts.

I have already seen some minor politics, and I don't really care for them, but then my livelihood, and life's work is not Aikido? Don't most of us consider Aikido our hobby, not our life's work?

Which brings up another thought about instructors who burn the candle at both ends, in the middle and up aroun the sides? We will leave that go for another time.

If this situation is not serious, it will work out in time with another organization recognized by Hombu. If not ... well ... let's just concentrate on practice and let the politicians bump heads. There is enough ego in regular life without bringing it into the dojo.

Edward
07-08-2002, 08:35 AM
Well, I agree with James that if a person is good enough to earn a certain rank, stripping him from this rank will not admonish his skills.

If it would happen to me, I would feel in my right to start a new organization, or join another rival one.

Of course, this opinion has nothing to do with the current issue, which details I don't, and I don't intend to, know.

Originally posted by Jim ashby
Be gentle with me, this is a genuine question. If a person is "Stripped of rank" surely they still have the knowledge and skills that they had before. If they then go on to start a new organisation/club/whatever they can call themselves what they like. I know this is going to get me flamed, but whatever organisation is started it has to start somewhere, with or without another person/organisation's blessing. Let us not forget that Aikido was started in the Twentieth century. I'd be very interested to know who verified/authorised the forming of the new art?
( Sits back and waits for the attacks)
Have fun.

jimbaker
07-08-2002, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered


...I can understand that the members of the Shinjinkai club dispute the statements from AAA alleging the stripping of rank by Hombu dojo -- who would want to believe anything as extreme as that about the "leader" that they have supported and believed. I suppose that the truth will be revealed when the first of his members tests for a Dan rank, only to find out that no valid membership from Aikikai headquarters will be issued. Yes, they are simply pieces of paper, but they give you validation. Validation which Mr. Moore is unable to provide.

Again, I can see how Moore Sensei loses his Hombu authorization to issue kyu ranks and recommend dan ranks; it's automatic when one leaves a Hombu affiliated organization. This is NOT the same as being stripped of rank. That is a specific act where the person has to return their certificates. Has Moore Sensei been asked to return his? If not, it is just playing fast and loose with the language to imply that he has.

As for loyalty, I've been told by my Shihan, Yamada Sensei, that it's alright with him to go to classes at dojos outside of the USAF. If an 8th Dan says it's OK, that's good enough for me.

Lastly, I'm only interested in this topic because I've been making a database of Aikido groups in the US and am keeping an eye on the happenings of various organizations. I have no direct knowledge, but I have seen indications that at least one other Sensei in the AAA is considering leaving.

jimbaker

Blaine Feyen
07-08-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Although I am an outsider, and generally I don't care about politics, it seems the void created by the death of Toyoda sensei is beginning to show its internal cracks in the AAA?

Whether the student is aware of it or not, there is a whole drama of egos, politics, and power struggle going on behind the scenes is all of the Aikido organizations. Some deny it, some divert the subject, and some try to cut to the truth of human failings, but in the end we are all subject to the humanity we prescribe to in being human beings.

It isn't the first time an individual will break away from an organization, and it won't be the last.

I don't know the details, but as long an individual is recognized by Hombu and approved by the them within the political hierarchy, then they will continue to be within the Aikido designation of martial arts.

I have already seen some minor politics, and I don't really care for them, but then my livelihood, and life's work is not Aikido? Don't most of us consider Aikido our hobby, not our life's work?

Which brings up another thought about instructors who burn the candle at both ends, in the middle and up aroun the sides? We will leave that go for another time.

If this situation is not serious, it will work out in time with another organization recognized by Hombu. If not ... well ... let's just concentrate on practice and let the politicians bump heads. There is enough ego in regular life without bringing it into the dojo.

Bruce, you have brought up very valid and important points regarding politics! Most students are unaware of the politics that occur behind the scenes in ALL organizations. They wouldnt be organizations if there was not some form of politics involved. Organizations have been formed to more efficiently disseminate the information they feel is important to the masses. No, we are not blind to the fact that it is also a business for the head of the organization but those of us who chose to follow a particular leaders teachings chose not to really care, we understand at some level that if it werent run as a successful business, we would have a hard time finding a place to train. I really value Chris Li's opinion regarding the plusses and minuses of being affiliated with an organization, however, his feelings about organizational affiliation are, and I could be wrong Chris, probably because he lives in Japan and can go train at any one of 100 dojo. In America, we are forced to be a little more discriminating in our choice of dojo because Aikido, Judo, and Kendo are not required physical education courses in our culture and there are not dojo on every street corner in every town. Nobody has to affiliate or be part of an organization, it just happens if you are lucky enough to have happened upon a great teacher like Toyoda Shihan or Sato Sensei, you would never question affiliation. In fact, Mr. Moore and his students preached the very same thing until he was no longer affiliated, now its taboo.

You are absolutely right, Bruce! It is a hobby for most people and should remain that way for the real value of O'Sensei's teachings to come through. But for those that wish to spread the teachings to more people, it is very tough to do without stepping into the business and political world. Politics is there whether you choose to see it or not. Just as we cannot see the air that we breathe, it is there and our inability to see it does not make breathing any less important! It is vital to our survival! There are many who feel that Aikido should be a grassroots movement where it is free to train anywhere you go and everyone can just go to the local park to do it, maybe they are right. But that is not the case today and the pioneers like O'Sensei, Doshu, Toyoda, Saotome, Yamada, Chiba, Kobayashi, and the dozens of others who have started their own organizations have opened doors for hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of like minded people around the world to see, hear, and feel the message that is Aikido.

You have also made a very pointed observation regarding the death of Toyoda Shihan and the apparent cracks in the organization. That is what this whole "schism" forum has been about, the necessary and immediate removal of the cause of the cracks! Unfortunately it sounds much worse to the people reading these forums because they are so far removed from the situation and completely unaware of the full details, as well, they should be. It really is unimportant to those who just wish to train. For the people who are at the epicenter of all this, it is much bigger because we have all lost a treasure with the passing of Toyoda Shihan. To many, including Mr. Moore, Toyoda Shihan was more than just their Aikido teacher, he was their friend, their mentor, a loving husband and a father. For the friends of Mr. Moore, they feel forced to make a tough choice: Leave behind most of their Aikido friends and other teachers to follow Mr. Moore or stay where they are and say goodbye to the few who chose to leave. Those who chose to leave were not, contrary to popular belief, forced out or threatened if they left. People will always be welcome to train wherever they wish, including Mr. Moore's dojo and the AAA dojo's. It is important to note, however, that those who felt they had no choice but to leave and felt threatened if they did so, felt that way because of the actions of their leader. Not because the organization made them feel that way. Anybody at anytime is supported if they wish to go "do their own thing", in fact, in Mr.Moore's case it was strongly encouraged by Toyoda Shihan and would have been financially supported. All of us who have our own dojo have been encouraged and supported to go and "do our own thing", though nobody else has tried to take over or destroy any organizations while doing so. Those for whom recognition and quality instruction is important, they will choose a recognized dojo and leaders, for those who dont care yet, I recommend you investigate wherever you decide to train to make sure the dojo and teachers are right for you. As a few have pointed out, the piece of paper and the signature on it is, in the grand scheme of things, unimportant. What is important to all of us is good instruction, good leadership, good friendships, and good training. If you can find that at an unaffiliated dojo (which I am quite sure you can since we are all human beings), feel free to do so and feel free to go and visit any and all dojo you wish to further your training. That is what Aikido training is about and should continue to be about.

And Yes, You are right again Bruce, this small blip on the screen of Aikido training will pass in time. The dojo, as much as people would like it to be different from their daily lives, is really just a microcosm of life and reality. One cannot escape reality by going to the dojo, only learn to accept life's difficulties and get back up after being knocked down time and time again. That is what the AAA has done, that is what Mr. Moore's group has done and as many of you have pointed out, let us learn from our experiences and continue training!

Unregistered
07-08-2002, 11:02 AM
Whoa. They keep talking about how this guy is not a threat and not a big deal and that no one is following him, so what's all the fuss about?
Does this new organization have a website? What are their statements about why they exist? Where are they located? I don't see them attacking anybody on this forum.

Unregistered 3
07-08-2002, 11:13 AM
Well, it seems like the "rogue" organization in question takes the high road on public forums and attacks on the sly. Their website is full of subtle and not so subtle attacks on the AAA style of instruction and Aikido. The least of which is that it is "watered down." I think that a covert attempt to cause derision to create a situation where the leader could take over an organization by force is attack enough.

In regards to the rank question, most people don't question the leader's technical skill but do question his character and motives. Plus many have witnessed incidents where weaknesses in his character have influenced his technique, causing very unsafe situations for uke.

This is a no win situation. Perhaps we should all let it go and let our practice and actions speak for our characters. In time, people will figure it out for themselves.

Unregistered
07-08-2002, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
Whoa. They keep talking about how this guy is not a threat and not a big deal and that no one is following him, so what's all the fuss about?
Does this new organization have a website? What are their statements about why they exist? Where are they located? I don't see them attacking anybody on this forum.


http://www.shinjinkai.org/

Erik
07-08-2002, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered 3
Well, it seems like the "rogue" organization in question takes the high road on public forums and attacks on the sly. Their website is full of subtle and not so subtle attacks on the AAA style of instruction and Aikido. The least of which is that it is "watered down." I think that a covert attempt to cause derision to create a situation where the leader could take over an organization by force is attack enough.

I'm a little confused by this statement. I assume you mean www.shinjinkai.org but I see very little mention of AAA and I certainly saw nothing derogatory but I'm a little slow in the morning. Certainly as an outsider I would have no questions based on the website.

In regards to the rank question, most people don't question the leader's technical skill but do question his character and motives. Plus many have witnessed incidents where weaknesses in his character have influenced his technique, causing very unsafe situations for uke.

Character is an interesting thing. I think there are more than a couple of organizations that would be seeking new leadership based on some people's perceptions (mine for one) of character.

This is a no win situation. Perhaps we should all let it go and let our practice and actions speak for our characters. In time, people will figure it out for themselves.

If so, I think you would not have written this post.

07-08-2002, 12:06 PM
I'm posting this to see if my name shows up before I make any comments.

07-08-2002, 12:22 PM
I have several comments:
1. Mr. Baker I question your interest. While in Memphis you made several critical comments regarding Toyoda sensei's health and his local dojos on issues you had no business being involved in. In fact, you or your representatives even wrote the IAF regarding dan exams you only observed part of and took issue with. Your behavior was so out of line, as a local aikidoka I personally wrote a letter to your shihan anonymously requesting he reel in your non aiki comments. Toyoda sensei seemed to want to let it go. Perhaps you have turned over a new leaf.
2. This whole thing does not have a very Buddhist flavor to it. Egos have definitely not been transcended on either side of the issue. This appears to be very money motivated and ego motivated.
3. Instructors of AAA should be given the entire details of the issue so they can make appropriate judgements. Mr. Moore's web site is somewhat innocuous so I can't see what was so offensive. Obviously something else must have transpired. Stripping someone of their rank and relationship with hombu is a serious response and should be limited to serious acts-theft, molestation, etc. I know of one other student of Toyoda's that was responsible for stealing membership dues and he just went to another organization (this was according to Toyoda somewhere in the area of $10,000).
4. The issue of airing dirty laundry publically is inappropriate. Internal political issues should be kept internal among management personnel and not aired in the public arena. This makes the everyone look bad. A simple letter to the affected parties could have accomplished the same thing.
5. I wonder if Doshu heard both sides of the story before making a decision.
6. O'Sensei would not be happy with this kind of behavior from any aikidoka. The way of harmony is not very harmonious. How you treat another human being says little about the other human being but loads about you.

Unregistered 3
07-08-2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Erik


If so, I think you would not have written this post.


Erik--touche. You are absolutely right. I guess I came to the realization that this is a "no win situation" only after I had vented.

I think that many people just have really strong feelings about this. Not just reactions to what the leader has done or said, but also coming from deeper emotional places. Many in the organization are very hurt and disappointed in the actions of this person. Sometimes this comes out in the form of negativity toward him and his organization. I was also motivated by anger and a need for people to know the "truth." This, of course, is my truth and my perception.

One truth that I know for sure is that the AAA is a very positive, supportive organization. It is a close community and I think many of us are just very protective of it and each other. That does not excuse my lashing out against someone else even though I felt that I was just giving the "facts."

Thank you for pointing this out to me.

Hogan
07-08-2002, 01:45 PM
Perhaps, Jun, it may be time to end this thread.

Erik
07-08-2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered 3
I think that many people just have really strong feelings about this. Not just reactions to what the leader has done or said, but also coming from deeper emotional places. Many in the organization are very hurt and disappointed in the actions of this person. Sometimes this comes out in the form of negativity toward him and his organization. I was also motivated by anger and a need for people to know the "truth." This, of course, is my truth and my perception.


I do know what you mean here. If you look at my profile you'll see I'm in the Bay Area which for many means being in the AANC. The AANC has had more than it's share of intrigue over the years, everything from the event mentioned earlier to continued tension within the divisions. It finally came to a head and was disolved.

At first I was angry with the other side which for me was the Bill Witt segment and I have friends in that segment. Eventually, I just became angry with all four of those involved in the leadership positions. Running an organization shouldn't be that hard. Finally, I realized that in the context of my practice it didn't make a bit of difference. I could still practice at any of the dojos in question and they are still the same people regardless of the organization.

So what was I mad about? That people I barely knew couldn't get along? That an organization was disolved? I'd be hard pressed to even define any value that the organization provide me. In other words, in my context as a student it really should have made no difference whatsoever to me.

All worked up about nothing. Yep, I can relate.

Chris Li
07-08-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Blaine Feyen
I really value Chris Li's opinion regarding the plusses and minuses of being affiliated with an organization, however, his feelings about organizational affiliation are, and I could be wrong Chris, probably because he lives in Japan and can go train at any one of 100 dojo. In America, we are forced to be a little more discriminating in our choice of dojo because Aikido, Judo, and Kendo are not required physical education courses in our culture and there are not dojo on every street corner in every town.

It's true that I'm in a dojo-rich situation right now, but I've lived and trained in the states, and spent years in places not nearly as dojo-rich as the Chicago area. That doesn't change my point of view, really. I wouldn't stay somewhere that threatened to kick me out of the organization because of contact or training with "forbidden" members (I'm not saying that happened in this case, but it was certainly alleged), whether it were the only game in town or not - the morals involved don't change because your personal situation happens to be less convenient.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
07-08-2002, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Erik
I'd be hard pressed to even define any value that the organization provide me. In other words, in my context as a student it really should have made no difference whatsoever to me.

All worked up about nothing. Yep, I can relate.

That's an important point. There's almost nothing that a large organization can give you that you can't get from a single dojo - even Aikikai recognition (and the right to give rank) only requires (IIRC) a two dojo organization. What benefits does any organization larger than that really give anyone?

Best,

Chris

kironin
07-08-2002, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Chris Li


Ah, OK I guess that I mis-read the original post. As I understand it, even K. Tohei didn't have his rank revoked, nor did any of the people who broke off with hombu at one time or another (such as M. Saotome), so this case seems to be a little bit different.

Best,
Chris


Not that I really want to step into this, but Saotome Sensei and Toyoda Sensei were both part of the original group of teachers that broke off from the Aikikai Hombu in 1974 when K. Tohei
Sensei resigned. They were part of the very early core of Tohei Sensei's Ki Society.

It seems that once they left to form their own organizations (ASU and AAA) that eventually grew into importants groups in their own right, that were not associated with Tohei Sensei, then there was a possibility of reaffiliation with the Aikikai. There did seem to be a somewhat lengthy process in reconnecting to the Aikikai (several years IIRC) during which I could imagine the discussion of recognizing rank had to come up. Obviously Tohei Sensei's stature being what it was, there never will be any compelling reasons to make a reconnection (from either side) at a high level. It would be like M. Ueshiba Sensei reaffiliating with the Daito Ryu in 1960's.

I recall that when Toyoda Sensei left with Tohei Sensei, he was a yondan in his 20's, and so would have been promoted twice by Tohei Sensei before leaving Ki Society to form AAA around 1983 (?). So Aikikai Hombu had to recognize his rokyudan rank awarded by Tohei Sensei via Ki Society. That must have been an interesting negotiation. His rank clearly deserved to be recognized.

I am only dimly aware of the bad feelings and sharp words that existed at the time in the 1970's over that split since it is all before my time. Family spats are never pretty and can generate ugly feelings and ugly words from otherwise good people.

Cearly both Saotome Sensei and Toyoda Sensei both proved themselves by their example over many years as teachers and leaders. This made it possible for them to reconcile with Aikikai Hombu and K. Ueshiba Sensei.

As one of those students who walked into an Aikido dojo completely unaware of the history and organizations, I can identify with the new students that will come into the this new group called Shinjinkai . I ended up joining a Ki Society dojo because I liked the teacher, the fellow students and the practice. In fact it was about six months before I really became aware that Aikido had more than one organization ( :-) ).

Now, even though I am a Ki Society instructor, I enjoy visiting and playing with my AAA, ASU, and USAF cousins when possible.

The AAA can only just let them go and time will be the judge not people.

Craig

akiy
07-08-2002, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by kironin
Not that I really want to step into this, but Saotome Sensei and Toyoda Sensei were both part of the original group of teachers that broke off from the Aikikai Hombu in 1974 when K. Tohei
Sensei resigned. They were part of the very early core of Tohei Sensei's Ki Society.
Are you saying that Saotome sensei was one of the people in Tohei sensei's Ki Society and that he broke off from Aikikai because of Tohei sensei's leaving that organization? Or are you referring to Toyoda sensei's past affiliations?

-- Jun

Unregistered
07-08-2002, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by akiy

Are you saying that Saotome sensei was one of the people in Tohei sensei's Ki Society and that he broke off from Aikikai because of Tohei sensei's leaving that organization?
-- Jun

Yes.

According to the details given by Roy Y. Suenaka Sensei in his book (book title - Total Aikido), where he lists names of the original senior people Tohei Sensei sent to the USA. It explains some things and I see no reason why Suenaka Sensei would be lying about this. After all, he runs his own independent organization in the Southeast USA now (Wadokai Aikido). He just matter-of-fact lists some who were in the early group while recounting some early meetings.

IIRC, by Suenaka's account Saotome Sensei did not stay long (1-2 years ?). He left when it was still forming. My guess is that he was one of the more senior people at the time (a bit more independent?) ? Wasn't ASU formed in 1977 ?
I bet none of senior of the ASU students really had any association with Ki Society except through Aikikai teachers that just happen to still be in the Ki Society. Just no time.

Perhaps Toyoda Sensei's association with the Ki Society is better known because he was with the Ki Society a much longer time. He left when the Ki Society had been pretty well established and many of his oldest students in AAA (now godans) originally did start and can remember his days as head of the Chicago Ki Society.

I have chatted with Toyoda Sensei and number of senior most teachers and they all seem to be from Chicago and started in the Ki Society. I bet that's not true of the ASU. So it's easily forgotten. Ikeda Sensei began Aikido in 1968, so perhaps you should ask him, though was he associated with Saotome Sensei before 1978 ?

A lot of the terminology in the Ki Society and the formation of taigi's did not occur till the late 1970's after Saotome Sensei left. So while I dig what you guys do in the ASU, and can often relate based on my Ki Society training. The AAA curriculum is a much more obvious cousin to Ki Society as it retains much of Tohei Sensei's basic exercises.

anyway, it's only of passing interest in understanding why some people ended up where they did and why there might be motivations to open dialogue with, K. Ueshiba, the doshu at the time, who they certainly knew from being instructors at the Aikikai Hombu in the late-60's and early 70's.

Craig

Chris Li
07-08-2002, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by kironin
Not that I really want to step into this, but Saotome Sensei and Toyoda Sensei were both part of the original group of teachers that broke off from the Aikikai Hombu in 1974 when K. Tohei
Sensei resigned. They were part of the very early core of Tohei Sensei's Ki Society.

Saotome was never a member of the Ki Society, and he didn't break off to leave with K. Tohei. Not surprising, as Saotome was a Yamaguchi student, and Seigo Yamaguchi never really got along well with K. Tohei. M. Saotome stayed at Aikikai hombu for a brief time after the split and then moved to the United States. He ended up forming ASU and breaking with hombu because of some problems with some of the other Aikikai instructors already in the US and later re-affiliated when the furor died down (10 years or so later).

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
07-08-2002, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered

According to the details given by Roy Y. Suenaka Sensei in his book (book title - Total Aikido), where he lists names of the original senior people Tohei Sensei sent to the USA. It explains some things and I see no reason why Suenaka Sensei would be lying about this. After all, he runs his own independent organization in the Southeast USA now (Wadokai Aikido). He just matter-of-fact lists some who were in the early group while recounting some early meetings.

Ah, I see what you're talking about now. Yes, Saotome was invited to some of the original meetings, where K. Tohei tried to recruit him (and many other) instructors, but he did not, AFAIK ever become a member of Ki Society, or break off to follow Tohei.

Best,

Chris

kironin
07-08-2002, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Chris Li


Saotome was never a member of the Ki Society, and he didn't break off to leave with K. Tohei. Not surprising, as Saotome was a Yamaguchi student, and Seigo Yamaguchi never really got along well with K. Tohei. M. Saotome stayed at Aikikai hombu for a brief time after the split and then moved to the United States. He ended up forming ASU and breaking with hombu because of some problems with some of the other Aikikai instructors already in the US and later re-affiliated when the furor died down (10 years or so later).

Best,

Chris



Well, I would have to go find Suenaka's book, but I recall being surprised by his mentioning Saotome Sensei, because I had never heard of the connection before. I wouldn't be surprised if a personal remembrance contradicted some official Aikikai version of events as told in Japan.

Craig

Chris Li
07-08-2002, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by kironin

Well, I would have to go find Suenaka's book, but I recall being surprised by his mentioning Saotome Sensei, because I had never heard of the connection before. I wouldn't be surprised if a personal remembrance contradicted some official Aikikai version of events as told in Japan.

Craig

Not so official - I got my first two dan rankings from Saotome, and I know most of the people who invited him to the US in the first place.

In any case, the Aikikai rarely issues versions, official or otherwise, they're too "Japanese" for that :) .

Best,

Chris

kironin
07-08-2002, 09:10 PM
Well, the ASU still seems pretty Ki friendly :)

g'night
Craig

tedehara
07-08-2002, 10:27 PM
Chris Li is correct. Saotome Sensei was never a member of the Ki Society. Toyoda Sensei was with the original group that broke away from Hombu Dojo.

In his book Book of Ki:Co-ordinating Mind and Body in Daily Life page 91, Tohei lists Fumio Toyoda as being part of the original Ki Society instructors. He also lists Toyoda Sensei as 5th dan. I believe he received promotion to 6th dan when AAA affiliated with Aikikai.

Toyoda Sensei was originally sent to be head instructor of the Chicago Ki Society. However after years of running battles with Ki Society headquarters, he was expelled. When that happened, Tohei was asked, "What do you want to do about Toyoda?", implying possible legal action to wrestle the dojo away from him. Tohei replied, "Forget it."

This is also good advice for those involved in this split. If you know who you are, then you know where you should be. Don't worry about everyone else. They can take care of themselves.

This is a very emotional time. Toyoda Sensei's first year memorial has just occurred and many people are now feeling the full loss of his passing. However the lessons he taught should be more alive than ever.
:)

Hogan
07-09-2002, 06:24 AM
Ted - I was under the impression that Toyoda sensei held the rank of yondan at the time of the Tohei / Japan split, then was promoted via Tohei to godan and rokudan. During negotiations of reaffiliation with Japan, the CONFIRMATION of his 6th dan was an issue, yet ultimately approved and confirmed by Humbu. Perhaps Peter Goldsbury can shed some light on this matter, as he, I believe, alluded on another aikido web-board of his familiarity of the negotiations (and Peter, please correct me if I misunderstood).... I had heard rumors of his promotion to 7th dan would have occured had he not passed. Anyway, AAA's own biography of him seems to allude to his 5th and 6th dan promotions while with Tohei -

http://www.aaa-aikido.com/toyoda.htm

kironin
07-09-2002, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by Hogan
Ted - I was under the impression that Toyoda sensei held the rank of yondan at the time of the Tohei / Japan split, then was promoted via Tohei to godan and rokudan. During negotiations of reaffiliation with Japan, the CONFIRMATION of his 6th dan was an issue, yet ultimately approved and confirmed by Humbu. Perhaps Peter Goldsbury can shed some light on this matter, as he, I believe, alluded on another aikido web-board of his familiarity of the negotiations (and Peter, please correct me if I misunderstood).... I had heard rumors of his promotion to 7th dan would have occured had he not passed. Anyway, AAA's own biography of him seems to allude to his 5th and 6th dan promotions while with Tohei -
http://www.aaa-aikido.com/toyoda.htm


about 7th dan, yeah there were rumors.

I recall comments about him being rokyudan for 20 years.
I am pretty sure that Tohei Sensei had promoted him to 6th.

You have to respect that unlike others he never used the organization he founded to promote himself.

Craig

tedehara
07-09-2002, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Hogan
Ted - I was under the impression that Toyoda sensei held the rank of yondan at the time of the Tohei / Japan split, then was promoted via Tohei to godan and rokudan[/url]...
You are probably correct. I was thinking that Tohei could have promoted Toyoda Sensei to 5th Dan and then listed him as such in his book.

I'm not really that precise on rank promotion. The only thing I can say for sure is that when AAA was affiliated with Aikikai, Toyoda Sensei was 6th Dan. Which seemed to me, to be the correct rank for the founder of an organization of that size.

Bruce Baker
07-09-2002, 10:26 AM
How about we put this one to bed, eh?

Bad enough we have anonymous postings from ghosts, let alone your crys of WOLF!

Let the drama play out.

If it goes the way of many simular events I have seen, the ostrichsized person will either dissappear, or turn up again being vindicated and quite successful.

Since no one has the exact details, this thread has become the old ladys telling tales from partial facts.

Put it to bed, and let it be.

Your focus should not be the correction of other people's lives, but of your own.

That is the strength of training and understanding Aikido. Sometimes the choices are not correct, or the situation is not approvable by most watching, but that is learning process, and the natural Aiki of our baser animal nature.

Whatever happened here is done. Now the opposing parties must find the Aiki to resolve it ... and move one.

So should we all.

Les Kelso
07-09-2002, 07:46 PM
I have been a quiet practitioner of Aikido for 35 years and after reading the shameful finger pointing, muck raking and public laundering of grievances by MANY people who should know better, it makes me wonder why they would think this kind of hyperbole serves the purpose of harmony.
If my neighbor or aquaintance serves ill to the public, does it further the cause of good or harmony for me to amplify his weaknesses?
It makes me think some practitioners would do well to go back to the basics of O'Sensei's teachings of Love and Harmony.
Why would anyone want to publicly point out another persons shortcomings when better time would be spent trying to polish their own?

Unregistered
07-09-2002, 08:58 PM
Sorry for the bandwidth but I just can't let this go by.
Originally posted by

1. Mr. Baker I question your interest. While in Memphis you made several critical comments regarding Toyoda sensei's health and his local dojos on issues you had no business being involved in. In fact, you or your representatives even wrote the IAF regarding dan exams you only observed part of and took issue with. Your behavior was so out of line, as a local aikidoka I personally wrote a letter to your shihan anonymously requesting he reel in your non aiki comments. Toyoda sensei seemed to want to let it go. Perhaps you have turned over a new leaf.

The comments about his health were by my wife, a physician, who noticed his feet had a bluish tint. It frightened her and she mentioned it to people within his group, so they could keep an eye on him while he was there. That he wasn't healthy at the time was simply a fact.

Neither I, nor any person in my dojo, EVER contacted the IAF about anything, never mind something to do with another dojo, EVER. It wouldn't have ever even occured to me to try and I'm not exactly sure how one actually contacts the IAF.

In fact, I only ever voiced my concerns about those particular dan tests on two occasions, and only because I was directly asked; once by you in our dressing room and the other by a visiting AAA yudansha. If you've ever read the things I write here or elsewhere, you would know that I do not discuss my opinions of other teachers or styles, except privately. That is, by the way, how I know who you are, the choices being only two.

I might add that Yamada Shihan never reads anonymous letters as a matter of policy and I never heard anything about this.

I return you all to your normal bandwidth.

jimbaker

07-10-2002, 06:11 AM
Apparently, you don't know who I am since I never had such a conversation with you EVER. In fact, I don't believe we've ever had a conversation about anything.

I might ask how it is that Toyoda sensei had to respond to allegations of sub par dan exams to the IAF if no one in your organization contacted the IAF-there was no other aikido organizations or visiting yudansha in town? I doubt students from his own dojo had complained.

Toyoda sensei had a life long struggle with gout-his feet didn't turn blue but did swell and have knots on them.

There was also an anonymous letter written by someone in your group questioning the rank of the instructor of another dojo (that person had already been kicked out) to ATM.

Chris Li
07-10-2002, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by

I might ask how it is that Toyoda sensei had to respond to allegations of sub par dan exams to the IAF if no one in your organization contacted the IAF-there was no other aikido organizations or visiting yudansha in town? I doubt students from his own dojo had complained.

Is (or was) AAA even a member of IAF? I had thought that the one-country rule is still in force in the IAF. IIRC, the USAF was the only IAF member in the US until it pulled out and now there are no IAF affiliated groups in the US (or maybe I missed something).

Also (as I understand these things), ranks (and testing) all go through Aikikai hombu. Does the IAF even have anything to do with that?

I'm with Jim - I wouldn't even know where to file such a complaint :) .

Best,

Chris

07-10-2002, 06:51 AM
All yudansha affiliated with an organization have IAF registration and cards.

If Mr. Baker did not make any of the comments, I apologize. However, someone in his organization did.

First, Toyoda sensei's feet were in need of surgery and I wonder how your wife saw his feet since he wore socks the entire seminar. The comment that came back to the AAA dojo was that he looked like he was on his death bed. I personally heard Toyoda state he had to answer complaints about the examination that were apparently made by someone in Mr. Baker's organization to the IAF. Whateve the channel used it apparently made it there.

Second, someone in your organization was circulating a rumor of a flyer at the time as well contending Toyoda was giving out rank to black belts in aikido to build his organization.

Whether you were responsible or not someone in your organization was creating considerable disharmony in the Memphis aikido world at the time. Ethics of leadership would suggest the leader when aware of such actions should effect an apology to the damaged parties and correct the action of his or her followers.

Nuf said.

Chris Li
07-10-2002, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by
All yudansha affiliated with an organization have IAF registration and cards.


Hmm, I lost the little card years ago, but I still have the yudansha book (I assume that's what you mean). The book is an "International Aikikai Yudansha Card" and is issued by the Aikikai Foundation (at least, that's what it says on the cover). As I understand these things the Aikikai Foundation and the IAF are two seperate but related entities. As I said before, the AAA is not (AFAIK) an IAF member, nor has it ever been, nor is there (to my knowledge) any organization that is an IAF member in the United States.



First, Toyoda sensei's feet were in need of surgery and I wonder how your wife saw his feet since he wore socks the entire seminar. The comment that came back to the AAA dojo was that he looked like he was on his death bed. I personally heard Toyoda state he had to answer complaints about the examination that were apparently made by someone in Mr. Baker's organization to the IAF. Whateve the channel used it apparently made it there.

Sounds to me like a lot of "I heard somebody else say that they heard their friend's uncle say" kind of stuff to me.


Nuf said.

I'll say :).

Best,

Chris

UnregisteredA
07-10-2002, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by
...Nuf said.

I'm kinda hoping this'll be picked-up by FOX TV for it's fall schedule - right after Bachelorette's in Alaska....

Unregistered
07-10-2002, 08:45 AM
Putting this puppy to bed:

>If Mr. Baker did not make any of the comments, I apologize. However, someone in his organization did.<
Apology accepted. I didn't have an "organization", I had a dojo; if someone wrote anything to anyone, I was never told.

>First, Toyoda sensei's feet were in need of surgery and I wonder how your wife saw his feet since he wore socks the entire seminar.<
Not when he came to greet me and my wife.

>The comment that came back to the AAA dojo was that he looked like he was on his death bed.<
He did, but I never said that publically. My wife, in fact, checked the room to find the phone, so concerned she was that he might need assistance right then.

>I personally heard Toyoda state he had to answer complaints about the examination that were apparently made by someone in Mr. Baker's organization to the IAF. Whateve the channel used it apparently made it there.<
First, now you are saying that I might NOT have contacted the IAF? Also, as others have stated, neither Toyoda Shihan nor the AAA were members of the IAF, so why would he be contacted by them. If you have this part incorrect, perhaps you would like to reconsider what you actually know rather than what you believe before you make anonymous accusations.

>Second, someone in your organization was circulating a rumor of a flyer at the time as well contending Toyoda was giving out rank to black belts in aikido to build his organization. <
"A rumor of a flyer"? What in God's name are you talking about. Is there any part of this you know first hand?

>Whether you were responsible or not someone in your organization was creating considerable disharmony in the Memphis aikido world at the time.<
And you say that you wrote an anonymous letter to my shihan, even though you don't know if I did anything?

You are aware that when I moved to Memphis, the dojo there was being run by a complete fake; fake rank, fake organization, fake certificates. The people in the dojo discovered this, not through me, and asked him to leave and purchased the dojo's contracts from him. They later joined the AAA. When I left Memphis, I encouraged several students to join that dojo and they did so with my blessing. You may ask them.

As for your never meeting me, then you must have been told of my conversation in the dressing room by the man I spoke with. Which makes your information second, if not third hand. And on the basis of this you attack my character?

>Nuf said.<
This I can agree with.

jimbaker

akiy
07-10-2002, 08:59 AM
Hi everyone,

Please note that this Anonymous Forum is not meant to be a venue for anonymously attacking other people, whether they are present in these Forums or not.

If you feel the need to attack someone on a personal level anonymously, this is not the venue for such behavior. Prolonged activity of this kind may result in your IP address being banned from AikiWeb.

Thank you.

-- Jun

Unregistered5
07-10-2002, 10:26 AM
But Jun, this is Aikido politics in action! You have 1700 views of this thread already, there's a whols bunch of witnesses to how these affairs are conducted. So far it's very instructive . Let the contenders continue, it shows the reality of Aikido practitioners.. who should realize what they are exhibiting is under scrutiny by their students and others around the world. Let's see what example is provided of Aikido in the "real world"

akiy
07-10-2002, 10:36 AM
Just because some people here may think that certain actions by others may have been "wrong" doesn't mean they have the right to use this Anonymous forum to launch anonymous, personal attacks against people's personal character.

Discussing aikido politics is fine. Attacking people personally through the veil of anonymity is not. Remember that the first rule here is "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect." I hope people will extend that, of course, to those who are not on these Forums as well.

If you don't agree, please feel free to find another venue in which to express anonymous, personal attacks.

I stand by what I wrote.

-- Jun

07-10-2002, 11:49 AM
Back to the original topic.

In the business world, companies use what is called succession planning. They identify top candidates and embark upon a process whereby potential successors are trained and given additional responsibilities to prepare them to take over in the event of an untimely death. Perhaps the sudden death of Toyoda shihan will serve as a wake up call for aikido organizations to identify and prepare successors formally. By doing so, there will be less or little political fallout. No one can foresee such untimely events but they can prepare for the possibilities. There may still be those preferring to go their own way, however, the organization will have a clear line of succession by identifying multiple successor candidates and ranking them. That way if successor #1 can't take over, then #2 can.

We will never be devoid of politics or monetary issues. If that were true, we would all be part of the Aiki-kai Hombu dojo and not have so many spinter groups grasping for a piece of the pie. However, by taking some basic lessons from business we can perhaps minimize the power struggles likely to occur when the head of an organization meets an untimely death. The issues of stealing students should be dealt with on a case by case basis within the confines of the organization and the alleged thief. Legal remedies may be available for such actions. However, stripping someone of their rank and future affiliation seems a little severe to me. In the past, as Mr. Baker so aptly points out, it has been done for having sex with an underage student (as I understood it). The seriousness of such behavior is reprehensible and should be dealth with severely and most likely legally.

07-10-2002, 11:58 AM
Oh, I fogot to include something that also might help.

Top yudansha and potential successors might be encouraged to sign contracts outlining what they can and cannot do if they decide to leave. Non compete clauses are frequently used in businesses when hiring some employees. I don't know how that would work in aikido organizations, but its a thought. For example, a non-compete clause might prevent someone from opening a business doing aikido within a certain radius of the dojo they were training at. I guess you'd have to check the legality of doing this in a dojo where people pay membership dues-but it is a business.

Erik
07-10-2002, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by
Top yudansha and potential successors might be encouraged to sign contracts outlining what they can and cannot do if they decide to leave. Non compete clauses are frequently used in businesses when hiring some employees. I don't know how that would work in aikido organizations, but its a thought. For example, a non-compete clause might prevent someone from opening a business doing aikido within a certain radius of the dojo they were training at. I guess you'd have to check the legality of doing this in a dojo where people pay membership dues-but it is a business.

I think you outlined the problem. For a contract to be enforceable, as I understand it, there needs to be an exchange of value, usually financial. In other words, if you are not paying them and in this case they are paying you, good luck enforcing a non-compete. Maybe a lawyer would have a different take?

Unregistered
07-10-2002, 02:23 PM
On the subject of Ďstealingí students, look at it from the studentís point of view...suppose one sees a class and admires the ways of Instructor A, in order to study with that instructor one must sign up for classes at Dojo Incorporated, which is offering his teaching services. In the event of a falling out where the services of Instructor A are no longer available at Dojo Incorporated, is the student not allowed to exercise his/her own judgment in supporting and following the teacher who they chose to study with in the first place? In entering the Gate, is not budo supposed to encourage one to grow a spine? In such case, is aikido a business or a Way?

Paul Clark
07-10-2002, 03:50 PM
I'm not anonymous, but I have nothing to add to this debate, so I should fit right in (am enjoying it, by the way).

I was thinking about the same succession planning problem, and it's actually bigger than just this one incident. Many of the heads of the bigger organizations are getting pretty old,or so I'm led to believe, and in the next 10 or 20 years most of the Japanese shihan may be dead. (If there are those who aren't that old, forgive me, but the problem is still there, just further down the pike). In addition, any one or several of these top guys could die suddenly, of either natural or unnatural causes---what if the top two are on the same, wrong airline flight? If there's no succession plan, the loss of the leader will lead to maneuvering, competition, and some level of struggle for the top leadership position.

The winners will be happy; the losers may be so unhappy that they decide to leave and found new organizations. These may become affiliated with the Aikikai if the parting is more or less amicable, or they may not, as seems to be the case here. Either way, the current stratification of organized aikido is doomed to a "flattening" effect, whereby the big, intermediary organizations will get smaller, and new, smaller organizations will affiliate themselves directly with the Aikikai, or not, as it suits them or as conditions permit.

This may be a good thing, or it may be a bad thing--it all depends on what motivates whomever thinks about it. From the standpoint of the business angle of aikido, if there are collections of fees, dues, etc. by the bigger organizations, they'll be the losers. The Aikikai may actually benefit by collecting these fees more directly, so maybe they see themselves as winners. Anyway, the point is there's going to be an effect, good or bad is a highly subjective judgement.

Succession is something that takes planning, long term and short term. Whether the catastrophe of a loss at the top happens suddenly or expectedly,you need an heir apparent if you want an orderly transition to new leadership. An heir apparent needs to be recognized as being just that by the large majority of the 2nd and 3rd tier leadership, as well as the bulk of the membership. He/she gets that by being clearly ranked above all other contenders, having been so for a substantial period, and having been doing work so close to and so critical to the lost leader that it's clear what his intention was. It's also critical that it be clear to everyone that for the sake of continuity and success, this person is the best to immediately pick up the ball and run with it.

I'm not Japanese, nor do I pretend to understand Japanese cultural sensitivities. From what I think I observe, though, the promotion of aikido teachers with a view to establishing a ranking that facilitates orderly succession isn't presently in the picture. It may also be that ranking people in this way is too competitive for aikido--doing things this way would make it very competitive, make no mistake. The politics may get worse, people will bump up against ceilings in their ability to progress in rank, there are whole hosts of issues here.

If I was an "aikido leader", which I'm not and am not ever likely to be, I would spend some time thinking about what I wanted aikido to look like in 10 or 20 years. Should it be very flat, with bunches of independents, or should there be "style" groupings, or does it matter? What are the business consequences? How will the relationships be affected if we leave things as they are? How would they be affected if we started planning successions and promoting on that basis? Which is more desireable, as determined by those with very long, first hand experience with the founder, and long experience in the essence of what is, and what should be, aiki?

10 and 20 years from now, there will be aikido, there will be an aikikai, and there will be "organizations". What that all looks like can just happen, in which case we all just live with what we end up with, or leaders can shape the future. The latter may also not be "aiki", and so undesireable. Either way, what we end up with ought to be the result of a conscious choice, even if that choice is to leave the evolution to chance.

That, where I come from, is the duty leaders owe to those who follow.

a nickel on the grass . . .

Paul

Hogan
07-10-2002, 04:29 PM
Hi Paul - noticed you were from Dayton - spent some time in Yellow Springs at Antioch... nice area around there. Had no idea there was Aikido !

Paul Clark
07-10-2002, 05:06 PM
Hi John,

Me neither. I was here from 1997-2000, wanted to start aikido, but didn't get round to trying, even saw a bulletin board ad several times . . .

It took a year in Alabama to get me started, now I'm back, and training with the teacher who's ad I saw on the board 5 years ago.

best
Paul

07-10-2002, 05:25 PM
Regarding whether aikido is a business or a way, I feel it is both. I doubt this issue would have come up with AAA if there had not been some monetary issues (loss of the zen group, loss of some students, etc.). I think both can co-exist. If there was no business aspect to it in the states, aikido would not survive unless people were running schools out of their garages. Seminars are definitely not free.

That being said; yes, succession planning is tricky, even when the players are Buddhists who should transcend egos (as we did not observe). Our egos make us feel we want to be the top dog or be thought of highly by our senseis. We also have different perspectives on what our leaders teach us-just look at aikido today. If their was no difference in what top instructors saw in O'Sensei's teachings then we would be all one.

So how do we handle this? To plan or not to plan that is the question. Obviously, as pointed out, an accident could take place to take out several tiers thus disrupting the best of intentions to identify successors. However, planning would seem to me to make the possibility of a smoother transition more likely. To do otherwise submits us to the vagarities of fate-what happens happens. Plans should also not be static but adapting entities adjusting to the situations as they occur.

As top shihans cross over(Buddhist truth-we all die), the future of aikido will be left in the hands of those now working their way up the ladder. How can we prevent future problems-wait and see what happens? Or, perhaps attempting to anticipate future events and groom successors. There is still the risk the successors will not be there themselves. Succession planning attempts to identify potential several layers down. Another complicating issue is do we plan for leaders with satisfactory technical skills or do we plan with the best technical skills which may or may not have leadership abilities? It gets sticky. My point is that to not plan and let happen what may could lead to the destruction of an organization in a very short time due to infighting and politics. The grooming of successors could be a starting point.

Unregistered
07-10-2002, 08:01 PM
".... I doubt this issue would have come up with AAA if there had not been some monetary issues (loss of the zen group, loss of some students, etc.)."

Unfortunately that is not the case. The headquarters dojo of AAA has gained and lost a number of teachers and groups at the main office that that is not really the case. But that is over....

I have heard people complain that one of the "problems" that Mr Moore has "created" was his openning of a dojo nearby the AAA headquarters. And one solution in instances such as these, it was suggested, was to have in a contract a prohibition against openning a close dojo when you leave. I think that the idea of a non-compete or radius clause would not work at all in an environment such as this.

An instructor, I think, is rarely under contract with a organization to teach martial arts. Usually the instructor is a student that has been with the group for a long time, and has sort of graduated into teaching as a consequence of his/her promotions in rank. Usually instructors in an orginazation are teaching voluntarily - AND they are paying the organization mo dues in order to train as well.

In business you usually sign a non-compete in order to protect the company from losing business, either from the employee taking business away when he/she leaves, or to protect co trade secrets (prohibiting an employee from using co knowledge specific to the co or from using knowledge of a specific co product when gone to take business away). In many cases the non-compete contract will allow an employee to leave and take a job with a competing co, provided the competing co pays the original employer a fee for "stealing" the employee.

There are not, really, "trade secrets" in teaching a martial art that are specific to an organziation, nor does not involve a specific physical product.

In the business world, you pay an employee from monies earned while doing business, either from your products or services. The employee does not pay the employer - the employer pays the employee for helping the co. make money. In martial arts, however, the employee (the teacher) in most cases is paying the employer (the martial arts org) to study and volunteers his/her teaching services. The product provided a martial art is not a physical one - that is it is not a computer, for example. The product offered is not only physical training but mental training as well. And THAT you can get at ANY martial art training facility. To have a non-compete clause or a radius clause in a "contract" would not only be unenforceable but it would make your org a laughing stock - I hope that no serious martial art org does not do this, if at least to avoid being the subject of another "Anonymous" thread .... ;)

07-10-2002, 08:16 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by a laughing stock. Please explain. In health care professions, for example, non-compete clauses are used to prevent doctors from opening up next door and taking a clinics patients with them. There is not physical product involved in such a case either. But a definite money issue exists. This also occurs with other skilled employees (I used to work in human resources).

I agree it may be difficult if teachers are not on the payroll and are paying dues. However, unless uchideshi a higher ranked instructor is likely donating teaching time and could cause serious financial harm to the school should he leave and pull loyal students. Students should have the right to go where they want to, however, in the role of a head instructor students could be guided to the instructor through one on one or other means (they probably have access to addresses, etc.). Taking students would be taking business although this is not something that could be trademarked or patented (aikido is aikido). Perhaps a lawyer could respond to this one.

mike lee
07-11-2002, 03:42 AM
I think that in the future, there will be a larger number of aikido organizations in North America. (Flow.) Then, some of these organizations may eventually be absorbed by major groups. (Ebb.)

Whether these groups are affiliated with Aikikia is, of course, largely up to the heads of these organizations and Aikikai.

A good example of this has already occured. Ki-Akidio and a few other shihan broke away from Aikikai; Numerous other teachers broke away from Ki-Aikido. (Flow.)

Then, various shihan began gathering up the "lost sheep" while at the same time, Aikikai began re-establishing it affiliations with various groups. (Ebb.)

A lot of this is pure economics, although few will own up to this. Increasing the client base increases revenue. Adding more and more requirements (such as seminiars), and boosting testing fees raises capital flow.

Whether or not Akikai will be able to continue to pull various groups into its fold will depend on a number of factors, such as:

1. How well does it serve its constituents?
2. Will the price paid be worth the services rendered?
3. Will the organization maintain its legitimacy?
4. Will political infighting eventually lead to another major break-up?
5. Will it be able to maintain its "mystique" as the Mecca of aikido?"

Unregistered
07-11-2002, 07:28 AM
In some of the previous commentary it sounds like folks are liable to get stuck in the mindset/lifestyle of feeding the machine. I imagine that many students frequently wonder if they arenít spending way too much on their Ďaikido-habití for the value they are getting Ė if the aikido school makes it too obvious that the student is just a dues paying commodity, then the student may eventually decide, ď...itís far cheaper and more convenient to join a health club, plus they donít expect you to sweep the floors.Ē For some, a time may come when they wonder if they arenít just massaging their own ego for a piece of paper and a colored belt. Everyone takes up a martial art for their own reasons, as to the survival of aikido, O Sensei didnít seem too concerned about the details of succession, or the politics. He seemed more interested in the continuation of the transmission of budo. Does it take a big dues-paying machine to accomplish that? Sure, aikido may be more accessible to the masses, like McDonalds. I am reminded of Eddie Murphy's skit of fellow students crowing that they had McDonalds hamburgers, while he brought funky homemade hamburgers with pieces of green pepper sticking out of them, and his ego felt bad. But when he grew up, he realized that his homemade hamburger, cooked with love by his caring mother, was really best.

mike lee
07-11-2002, 08:16 AM
Based on my experience of living in Asia for nearly 15 years, everthing is business -- and Westerners are suckers if they think it isn't.

Example: When I tell people that I teach aikido at a university, the first question that they invariably ask is how much I get paid. Next is how many students. They then immediately calculate earnings per student. Then they start comparing with other dojo.

Curriculum, lineage, loyalty or philosophy never enter into the conversation.

The school where I originally trained at, freely admitted that its primary revenue earner was the beginners' class that it began every six months after an extensive advertising initiative. It was revenue from a group with an 80% drop-out rate that sustained the school.

$$$

But pie-in-the-sky people just don't seem to get it.

Pie-In-The-Sky
07-11-2002, 08:41 AM
Hmmmm...revealing, thank you. Still, I think there are teachers out there who have more purely ascetic reasons for training and teaching. I'm very grateful that my teacher is one of them.

Chris Li
07-11-2002, 04:51 PM
Based on my experience of living in Asia for nearly 15 years, everthing is business -- and Westerners are suckers if they think it isn't.

"Asia" is a pretty wide generalization. The dojo that I train at in Japan are mostly non-profit, and I've never heard the kind of questions that you mention. In fact, teaching martial arts as a profession or for profit is actually fairly rare in Japan - it's probably much more common in the US.

Best,

Chris

Pretoriano
07-11-2002, 07:35 PM
Schism in my culture, is what does grand mother with aunt and girl friends when they sit down for coffe and cookies; I wish Osensei or other Honorable Masters could do read this schism, massification, money, stealing students, Yeah, this Stinks! you know?
shame on you
write down my name
Pretorian

giriasis
07-11-2002, 08:14 PM
Taking students would be taking business although this is not something that could be trademarked or patented (aikido is aikido). Perhaps a lawyer could respond to this one.

Yes, the students are not trademarks or trade secrets, but they may be "goodwill." Clientel acquired through the running of a business is called "goodwill" in law. This applies in torts and covenants not to compete. What happens if someone breaches their contract not to compete and takes the "goodwill" from their former employer, they might to have to pay for those profits that the former would have earned from those clients (students). But of course to recover for this there must have been a convenant not to compete to begin with.

Anne Marie "recent law grad but not an attorney yet" Giri

BC
07-12-2002, 09:36 AM
Actually clients acquired from running a business are typically called "customer lists" or "customer relationships," and there are recognized methodologies and standards for proving them and establishing values for them. Just my two cents.

Unregistered
07-12-2002, 09:41 AM
Actually clients acquired from running a business are typically called "customer lists" or "customer relationships," and there are recognized methodologies and standards for proving them and establishing values for them. Just my two cents.

What happens, I wonder, if clients are acquired by a person and customer lists / relationships are based on studying / working with that person, and that person dies ? What happens if those students go their separate ways ? Does the orginazation that remains have a claim to those students ? If that relationship was the sole basis for those students being a part of the orginazation ? Or can the go their separate ways ?

Erik
07-12-2002, 11:23 AM
What happens, I wonder, if clients are acquired by a person and customer lists / relationships are based on studying / working with that person, and that person dies ? What happens if those students go their separate ways ? Does the orginazation that remains have a claim to those students ? If that relationship was the sole basis for those students being a part of the orginazation ? Or can the go their separate ways ?

The organization does not own the students. It's the other way around. The only way to get around this is through a contract then the students would still be obligated to pay if they left.

In fact, most client lists are lost whenever a salesman leaves. It depends on the state but in many states a non-compete is valid only in very narrow and specific areas. In the case of a salesman, at least here in California, you can't limit their ability to apply their trade. So they hop on over to a competitor, set up shop, and start calling on their old customers. Game over, you lose.

The idea is to treat your salespeople in a way that they don't leave. Which brings me back to the crux of the problem. If all an organization offers is the charisma (stealing from Peter Goldsbury's writings) of their leader then when that person dies the organization will die or at least suffer. For organizations to survive they'll need either a strong and clear plan of succession (a charismatic #2) or they have to offer something of value to it's members.

Unfortunately, I know of no organization offering anything to it's members other than charisma and a piece of paper with Japanese writing on it, which, you still have to pay for. To put it more bluntly, I know of no organization offering it's members anything more than the opportunity to pay annual dues and test fees. If that's all you offer then I don't think you have much of a right to expect loyalty when the charisma leaves.

Unregistered
07-12-2002, 11:48 AM
I fail to see how one can claim that a student is a 'goodwill' or 'client' or 'customer relationship' when the directors of one's school kicks them out for training with a respected teacher that one's organization was praising to the skies only three months ago.

Unregistered
07-12-2002, 12:10 PM
The root issue with all this talk of organizations having schisms and restricting people seems be a confusion by some students of their training with their organizations.

Organizations are businesses. They can benefit students, they can provide survival to the organization head, and they can promote the art in a unified manner. All that is good. But when organizations begin to restrict training opportunities, rather then encourage them, we can be sure that the reason is purely economic. All talk of "loyalty", "tradition" etc. is bull. In the case of AAA, their sensei died. What is someone supposed to be loyal to now? The continuation of his business by someone else? "His training and tradition," you might say. OK, that can be done anywhere...you don't have to be in his business to follow his teachings. In some cases, it might be impossible to follow a teacher's traditions and teachings by staying! Who's to know?

I'm tired of people whining. Someone doesn't want to be in your club anymore? Fine...let them go! They're stealing your students? Ppeople aren't objects that can be stolen. They leave, especially if you don't keep them happy. Tough luck for you...you won't get their dues anymore. Ask yourself why, and face the music.

Organizations are not the training. If an organization loses sight of training and only seeks to perpetuate itself at any cost, then it is useless and should be corrected or abandoned. Go out into the woods, swing your bokken, train with anyone you want, test for rank or not as you wish. The bottom line is what you accomplish and realize through your training, not who you money to.

I'm sure Musashi was criticized for not belonging to a "recognized" ryu and for striking out on his own. Mostly by the people whose butts he kicked.

giriasis
07-12-2002, 02:16 PM
I fail to see how one can claim that a student is a 'goodwill' or 'client' or 'customer relationship' when the directors of one's school kicks them out for training with a respected teacher that one's organization was praising to the skies only three months ago.

First, I want to say I have absolutely no clue what is going on in the dojos in the current situation. My statement was addressing someone stating that students can not be trademarks and therefor can't be covered by a covenant not to compete. That's true.

Robert, aren't customer lists considered "trade property"? The customer list is the property not the customers. But just the "expectation of continued customer patronage" (Black's Law Dictionary, ab. 6th ed., pg. 479) is "goodwill"? That's my understanding.

This is how I understand, generally (subject to expections and state laws), happens with "goodwill" and trade property

Business X contracts with Mr. Y to work for them and includes and covenant not to compete from within (let's say for hypo sake) 5 miles and that you can't solicit the clients of Business X to come to your Mr. Y's Business. Mr. Y gets upset with Business X and decides to leave and open his own shop. If he takes a customer list (trade property) and solicits he violates the covenant. Or if he opens shop within a mile, and what Business "Business X" would have received was lost because Mr. Y's Business was set up within a mile. As a result, he violates the covenant not to compete. (Of course for this to make sense it would have to be customary for the type of business such as beauty salons.)

But, to begin with, all of this talk requires a contract to exist between X and Y. If it doesn't exist there is no issue and the whole idea is just moot. Meaning that Student Y of Sensei X would have to have a contract and a promise not to compete if they leave. I imagine perhaps not in aikido, but in a McDojo kind of situation where a Dojo business hires a person to teach you could possibly find such a contract. But a contract with ones students like this is riduclous.

Anne Marie

Unregistered
07-12-2002, 03:46 PM
In my experience, the AAA has, is, and probably always will encourage their students to train at other dojos and with other affiliations. I think that people might have gotten the wrong impression from this thread. Most of us AAAers are happily training and paying little to no attention to the "schism." A few members feel the need to be vocal about it and I support them (which doesn't necessarily mean I always agree). But most of us couldn't care less and are just happy to have wonderful dojos in which to train. An organization is really just the people in it and as long as those people continue to thrive in their training, the organization will thrive. No worries. Have fun!

BC
07-12-2002, 04:10 PM
You're right, a customer can never become the property of a business merely by doing business with them. I wasn't looking at the situation from a legal/litigation standpoint, but rather from a financial. A customer list only has monetary value to an organization if there is some contractual relationship between the two parties for the business between them.

Unregistered
07-14-2002, 11:47 AM
Wow, you folks are really entertaining. After reading your opinions I can't tell if Moore Sensei's dojo is filled with sneaky anarchists or a confused flock of sheep. I am a member of AAA but know many of the members who have left or have been "asked" to leave. I saw their dojo once and must say that it was a warm comfortable place filled with people whose only desire was to train hard with the person whose aikido they respect the most. Many of them are confused and hurt by the treatment they have received by AAA and their former friends there. Don't be afraid of shinjinkai. Just let them be. AAA has enough problems on its own.

Unregistered
07-14-2002, 08:38 PM
Moore was supposed to teach a seminar in GA sponsored by a group there that happens to be AAA. I was just told that the seminar is now cancelled because AAA told the GA dojo that, if they had this seminar, they would be kicked out of AAA.

Can anyone confirm this?

This stuff is ridiculous, but happens all the time. It happened in every generation whenever a leader passes or organizatons breakup. It happened at Hombu when Tohei left to make Ki society, it happened in Ki Society when Toyoda and others left to do their gigs, it happens now. Nothing new under the sun, as they say. Unfortunately.

Good to be independent from all organizations! I'll stay with my unaffiliated, blissfully ignorant dojo, thank you.

Unregistered
07-14-2002, 08:50 PM
Confirmed. You will see the seminar removed from his website.

Unregistered
07-14-2002, 09:09 PM
How do you know this? I know this is an anonymous forum, but it still shouldn't be used to spread rumors without a demonstrable basis in fact. Can you identify the proof of this? As far as I can see, the seminar is still being advertised on the web site.

PeterR
07-14-2002, 10:15 PM
Getting really tired of the Anonymous designation. Aikiweb seems to be degenerating really quickly.

akiy
07-14-2002, 10:31 PM
I agree, Peter. As this thread has turned into mere political bickering, I've decided to close it.

Once again, the Anonymous forum is not a place for anonymous attacks, petty or otherwise. Please respect this, otherwise I'll just have to close the forum.

-- Jun

akiy
07-15-2002, 09:11 AM
Hi folks,

In order to better "identify" Unregistered users who don't change their default "Unregisterd" monicker, I've changed the code to show a partial IP address in the form of "--.123.45.67" on the left side of each anonymous post. This should provide enough privacy as to not reveal the entire IP address of the poster but provide some indication of "who is who" through a thread.

This only applies to anonymous users in the Anonymous Forum.